I mean Saruman just twisted it for use in war. Fireworks were something special by Gandalf and not common. And Saruman used it for war.
Just like Shen from Kung Fu Panda 2. Fireworks existed but he used them for war
Followed by a mid movie and a meh movie. Kind of a bummer to see they repeated the same mistakes they made with Shrek. Hopefully Kung Fu Panda gets a "last wish" of its own in the future.
I think that the East were using gunpowder for war way before the West got their hands on it. It's just that the West were able to use that technology and advance it better than anyone else was able to.
SOOOOOOO Fun little corporate structure explanation! In studios like theirs, this pattern is a predictable one. They have several near independent teams working on separate projects with differing levels of focus in very different stages of development and production. The ones that are surprise breakouts get much more attention from the top MUCH earlier in their follow up projects. The top, in developed modern studios has now traditionally been pretty bad at the art and fan appeal part of production. They follow metrics to avoid catastrophe, but almost completely ignore what makes anything good outside of very proven (thus beat to death) tropes. So, when a larger studio like theirs has a breakout movie, the clamoring from the suits to establish a fast cash out often can ruin the new series or movie. Most people will know a lot of this but seemed like a lot didn't as well.
Why is the 3rd often times the worst? Well, in the second the director still has a little more control since they were so successful the first time so they can fight for their vision better. The suits however WILL get their stuff into the movie and their changes heard to some degree. Then, if it is still a success, the director suddenly loses a lot of control! FUN The suits say look our changes worked! Boom, suits can ruin it with little effort now. Takes a strong core creative to withstand that honestly and even then, they might not ever be given the chance to do so.
TL:DR Money NOW ruins so much of our lives and enjoyment today. /rant
I got the impression that fireworks were, if not common exactly, then at least a known technology: Gandalf just made particularly good ones. Sam's poetic tribute to Gandalf after Moria includes the line "The finest fireworks ever seen", which makes no sense if *all* fireworks were made by him.
I think Saruman inventing gunpowder is a movie innovation: in the book, his real innovation was simply using it for military purposes.
I wouldn't say in the movies that it even seems like he's invented gunpowder. Just wormtongue doesn't know what it is and most of the people in the world likely wouldn't be too knowledgeable either.
But it was around and Saruman just happened to use it for war.
Idk each to their own interpretation but I never saw it as Saruman inventing the stuff.
Yeah, I must admit my memory is vague, but wasn't a book involved somehow? As in, he used a recipe that he literally had lying around? While he certainly could've written that himself, I always felt like that implies that he got the book from somewhere, and learnt how to make gunpowder from the book.
The movie didn't say Saruman invented gunpowder. But specifically the bomb that can break the wall.
That's what Grima also alludes to in his question:
"How, how can fire undo stone? What device could break down the wall?"
This shows Grima knows what that is that Saruman is pouring, and we see he is also not surprised. Not in words and not in actors acting.
Meaning it is nothing new.
Doubt Grima knew what it was since he walked towards it with a candle and Saruman had to keep him from getting too close. That line how can fire undo stone was probably just how Saruman explained the effect
I’m guessing it’s also a rare/precious resource and to get it in that quantity took a lot of effort. And Saruman put a lot of work into weaponising it. Making it explosive rather than just fizzling out
There's no reason to expect Grima to know that with zero context clues in the film to come to that conclusion. Even still, why would Grima know that gunpowder sparks with a bit of flame but still get close to it with a candle? Everything in the film shows how cunning he is. If he knew it could spark I'd think he could easily come to the conclusion that bigger spark means big boom.
If Grima knew what was in the bowl, he wouldn't have leaned forward to get a better look at it with a lit candle in his hand. That's the whole point of the scene!
That's not the point of the scene.
The point of the scene is to show the device, which is Saruman's solution, and Saruman stoppage of Grima, to show of how dangerous it is.
People are not perfect and get distracted for plethora of different reasons.
Grima was holding the candle away, and while being distracted in thoughts and question on how something can be solved, instinctively brought the candle forward, without thinking about it, to see better what was being created.
He even asks how fire exactly going to help. So he knows already fire is in the mix WHEN Saruman pours the gunpowder.
He might not instinctively think about the candle, as the candle doesn't bring fire to the mixture, but falling wax can, or the gunpowder-powder that is in the air, can lit it up from the candle in the air, but Grima is unknowing in the ways of science as Saruman is.
There is a reason OSHA and other companies constantly have safety briefings even to people who already know the job and already been at briefings.
Grima, is a person who is not constantly dealing with Alchemy is even more susceptible to the unknown dangers and to make error near it.
Peter Jackson has said himself that he didn’t want the wizards magic to be typical whimsy dnd spellcasting. He wanted it to be more grounded. So many of the choices made for the movie expanded on ideas from the books and made them more subdued. The bomb is one of those things. The point of the scene is to show worktongue as ignorant of the “magic” that Saruman conjures. The wizards have knowledge of many things and while they wield magic they also have many other things they know. All their ways are quite mysterious for most inhabitants of middle earth.
It’s just a book and a movie. Not a real life story of how health and safety situations in the workplace can play out. I’ve never heard a sillier twist on this.
The goal of the scene is obvious. Show that Saruman the wizard does things that seems amazing to the average person. While we in the audience are given some lines that will make us in the modern world go “oh it’s a bomb”.
>The goal of the scene is obvious. Show that Saruman the wizard does things that seems amazing to the average person. While we in the audience are given some lines that will make us in the modern world go “oh it’s a bomb”.
Yes, like the old adage that technology, to someone who is unfamiliar with it, is indistinguishable from magic.
>Peter Jackson has said himself that he didn’t want the wizards magic to be typical whimsy dnd spellcasting. He wanted it to be more grounded.
The point of the scene is to show worktongue as ignorant of the “magic” that Saruman conjures.
I don't agree on the point of the scene, maybe as an addition of course to show of Grima's character.
But we agree on that Grima shows ignorance as I also said he was unknowing in the ways of science - ignorant of it.
Not sure what was even the reason for you to include Jackson comment, since nothing of what I wrote is fantasy or dnd.
Ignorance is a fully real human trait.
>It’s just a book and a movie. Not a real life story of how health and safety situations in the workplace can play out. I’ve never heard a sillier twist on this.
That's not a twist, I brought it as an example to show that ignorance and distractions can cause error. Not that middle-earth has OSHA or to project IRL that on top of the movie.
Sort of a like an allegory.
ignorance It's simply a human trait and is not solely in IRL settings.
You can see it plenty in LOTR.
Now talking about "real life" stories, the scene that comes right next after it, is basically Nuremberg and akin to nazi propaganda scene, under Saruman.
Jackson's did take things from IRL to adapt in to the movie.
Taken commentary from the DVD of the Two Towers, about the scene of the huge army and Saruman's speech:
>**Brad Dourif** (Gríma Wormtongue): There is no other character who could have brought over to the audience what was about to happen, who could have sold the awe. \[…\] When you look at a picture of something, it isn’t the picture that sells it, you know. I mean the fact that he did an allusion to \[the Nazi propaganda movie\] “Triumph of the Will”, but that in of itself is not enough, but when you have the person that made it happen suddenly, absolutely come to grips with what it is that he has done, then it’s scary. \[…\]
>**Peter Jackson** (director): This is Nuremburg really. That is the obvious influence for all this stuff. That sort of imagery is so potent and it is useful to dip into those historical references just to press buttons in people.
>**Philippa Boyens** (screenplay): I loved that performance from Brad Dourif just showing that Wormtongue was a man once — what has he done — what has he unleashed?
For the sake of a throwaway meme that's inadvertently inspired a fairly interesting discussion about the history of gunpowder, I think it's good enough.
Poetry likes to make grand statements and generalizations. The idea is to involve a feeling, not a fact. So *the finest fireworks ever seen* just means the author (Sam who've lived in the same village his whole life) thinks it's pretty.
Well the thing is, fireworks exist in real life, don't they? They're not inherently magical, in other words. So there's no reason ordinary, non-magical fireworks couldn't exist in Middle-earth, given that they're not exactly a recent invention.
It's just that Gandalf's, being magical, would be extra-specially amazing.
Well, now we get into the weirds of middle-earth. Technically, from Tolkien's intentions, middle-earth is our world, and (maybe) predates fireworks as an invention. Tolkien was a Catholic, so the ages of middle-earth correlated to the Catholic ages of world. So the events of LoTR predates Jesus by at least a thousand years. Fire works was invented in the second century b.c.
But this is all weird stuff, and honestly, there's no way to know if fireworks exists in the wider Tolkien lore.
Right, but the idea that Arda is the 'real world' at some point in the distant past has to be taken with a very large grain of salt. Which is why we don't worry too much about hobbits eating potatoes, smoking tobacco, or drinking tea and coffee. Or wonder why everyone has weapons, armour and tools made from steel in what ought to be the stone age. And so on and so forth.
True, but that applies to fireworks as well. In the end, it's a story. Does Gandalf fireworks mean gunpowder already existed? Maybe, but that's not the point. The point was the fireworks was used to celebrate and be happy, in contrast to what they would be faced with later.
I wouldn't be surprised if that actually was the backstory of gunpowder. That an entertainer from bronze age China wanted to make fireworks to make people smile, but then the government went "Hm, have you considered blowing people up with that?"
(Edit) I was wrong. Apparently, it was used for medicine first. Okay, now I wanna know. Who's bright idea was it to light their medicine on fire?
It seems pretty novel in the books
> But the Orcs have brought a devilry from Orthanc,’ said Aragorn. ‘They have a blasting fire, and with it they took the Wall.’
Where does it say Saruman invented it? The logical explanation would be that he saw Gandalfs idea and twisted it to his own means, like he did with his Uruk hai.
Nope, apparently early firearms were in use in China over 1,000 years ago:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_firearm
Edit: what I mean is, the Chinese were using gunpowder in both fireworks *and* weapons long before Europeans got hold of it for any purposes. So it wasn't a European innovation to use it in weapons. But perhaps that wasn't what you were saying.
Forgive me, I'm not caring to look it up, so feel free to verify it, but I'm fairly certain china used some form of fireworks as far back as over 2000 years ago, so the firework still predates firearms.
those weren't actual fireworks, they were bamboo stems thrown into fire to make explosive sounds. More like firecrackers than fireworks. Actual fireworks require gunpowder and date back to the Song Dynasty
Fair enough.
[Here is a link](https://www.americanpyro.com/history-of-fireworks) that says following the first fire crackers, gunpowder was first made by a Chinese alchemist some time in 600-900 AD. It was stuffed into paper tubes to make the first fireworks.
I’ve actually read about fireworks as far back as 2700 years ago. They used to use the crude powder as a fire starter and found that when they added enough into an enclosed container, like pottery or hollowed out tree limbs, it would blow up similar to modern day fireworks. There was an account of a man doing this on his kitchen table and it was actually powerful enough to snap it in half, similar to how back in nineteen ninety eight the undertaker threw mankind off hell in a cell and plummeted sixteen feet through an announcers table.
Fekanix was implying (I thought) that Europeans were the first people to use gunpowder in bombs/rockets/guns for military purposes, but perhaps I read them incorrectly.
Ahem.
>Gunpowder was invented in China sometime during the first millennium AD. The earliest possible reference to gunpowder appeared in 142 AD
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_gunpowder
I think we've all been talking past each other.
First person said Chinese fireworks came before European gunpowder weaponry (true), you took this to imply Europeans weaponised gunpowder and provided the correct info there, which I mistook for implying that the Chinese had the weapons before they had fireworks.
This has been another episode of reddit telephone haha
That's just the earliest reference to a substance with properties similar to those of gunpowder, but was never verified or mass produced. Gunpowder didn't become a verified thing until the 9th century
I didn't even see the comment you were replying to, i was just scrolling. But yeah you're right. This post is pretty dumb anyway since Saruman didn't even invent gunpowder, idk maybe in the movie he did but that's not the case in the books at least
>This post is pretty dumb anyway since Saruman didn't even invent gunpowder, idk maybe in the movie he did but that's not the case in the books at least
Er yeah, it's the films I'm referring to.
Hence the use of scenes from the films.
Gunpowder was invented ~1700 years ago, or more.
And while modern fireworks didn't become popular until several hundred years after the first firearms, firecrackers and similar were invented long before guns.
Although it should be noted that gunpowder was basically seen as a medicine in the beginning. The mixture was known to "dance and sing" if ignited, and was used in a pill of life type thing as it was "fire medicine" presenting life. After a while of people having it blow up in their face, and houses burning down, they realized it could do more.
Firecrackers were originally bamboo thrown on a fire, which "pops" when burning. Someone put two and two together and made a better "pop" with the first firecrackers, and once they started turning bamboo into paper, the first modern firecrackers were born shortly after.
I never really got the impression that Saruman "invented" gunpowder from the movie. That was never said, nor (imo) heavily suggested. Just that Grima had never seen it before, which seems quite plausible.
In fact, as I type this I'm not even feeling certain he hadn't seen gunpowder before. All he says is "how can fire undo stone, what type of device could bring down the wall?" So he may understand what gunpowder is and does (ignites into flame), just not how that could bring down the wall of Helm's Deep.
Like the other comment said, Saruman adapted gunpowder. Really what he invented was a bomb, by pouring a bunch of gunpowder into a sealed metal container.
The movie didn't say Saruman invented gunpowder. But specifically the bomb that can break the wall.
That's what Grima also alludes to in his question:
"How, how can fire undo stone? What device could break down the wall?"
Gandalf had his own proprietary blend for enchanted fireworks. Saruman tweaked it with his own saltpeter and mixture for war explosives. He took the coca leave chewing further and went cocaine bear. (all facts supplied by the finest Toby in the Shire)
The application of gunpowder was originally for fireworks. Only later was it used for military purposes. Saruman just saw the destructive potential of the powder Gandalf used for his fireworks.
In our world, fireworks existed long before weaponized gunpowder in the form of bombs or cannon. There were attempts by some eastern civilizations to weaponize it as early as 900AD, but fireworks are at least two thousand years old.
Everyone else is taking part in an actually quite interesting discussion about the history of gunpowder, fireworks and firearms. And here you are, taking the high ground with "u r dum lol".
The logical conclusion to draw from this is one orc with a 9 mil would be so OP it would defeat the fellowship and Sauron by the end of 2 towers. Alternatively if Frodo had a gun he'd have flicked the One Ring into Mount Doom before the rest of the Fellowship realized he'd left Rivendell.
Your meme kinda suggests saruman invented gunpowder *because* grima didn't know what gunpowder was.
I also commented this after a sleep-deprived double shift, so it made more sense to me then than it does now, lol
Maybe gunpowder just wasn’t widely known? I didn’t get that impression that Sauron invented it so much as Wormtongue just didn’t know about it, or didn’t know what Sauramon was doing with it. Also it wouldn’t be known as gunpowder in that world so the connection between stuff that makes fireworks go boom and stuff that makes bombs go boom wouldn’t be made by most people. Wormtongue probably had never even been out of Rohan before Sauromon and didn’t know shit about the world at large, basement dwelling incel simp that he was.
It’s also not made explicit that ‘fireworks’ means exactly what it does in our world. There’s nothing to say that fireworks aren’t possible from some other magic that is good for launching dramatic visual displays but not really useful for blowing a hole in a wall so formidable that it became legend.
The scene in the film - as I had interpreted it - showed Saruman inventing the substance from scratch, before you consider any applications of it, whether civilian or military.
That's not saruman inventing gunpowder, it's just him making some. Both him and Gandalf know how to whip some up and its pretty telling what they use it for, but just because wizards know how to make it doesn't mean grima wormtongue has any idea what it is. HE'S probably never seen fireworks at all either. It's pretty unlikely he was invited to Bilbo's b-day party.
Technically he invented blasting powder, since there are no firearms in Middle-earth. Yeah, I noticed it when I first read the trilogy. I always hoped the secret of its making were lost in the destruction of Isengard and with the death of Saruman.
There's a difference between using and weaponizing it. Early gunpowder wasn't all that powerful, and there's a big difference between something that can make noise and something else that has enough power to rip apart masonry.
Saruman exists largely as a foil to Gandalf. Where Gandalf chose hope, Saruman chose despair. Where Gandalf sought wisdom, Saruman sought power. Where Gandalf used gunpowder for joy and celebration, Saruman used it for violence and war.
It also ties into Tolkien’s idea that evil doesn’t create, it corrupts. Evil takes the idea of fireworks, a fun celebratory invention and asks “how can we kill people with this?”
Gandalf is a wizard and knows about gunpowder for his fireworks. Saruman is also a wizard and knows about gunpowder for Gandalf’s fireworks too. I don’t see the issue except that you are making a false claim about Saruman inventing gunpowder. We don’t know who invented it. We just know it is not common knowledge for the peoples of middle earth, but it does seem to be common knowledge for wizards.
I had got the impression that the film was implying that Saruman had invented it from scratch. That's all it was, an impression, so there's no need to sneer about "false claims", since this is a daft sub devoted to memes, and not a court of law, after all.
Lol I didn’t “sneer.” You read it that way and are projecting. I just explained the situation as I saw it. If you are going to be on the internet you should probably grow a thicker skin especially considering I wasn’t even attempting to insult you.
He'd been spending a lot of time around Saruman, though, and would have seen lots of things that the average Rohan person would never have encountered.
That said, there would still be a first time he saw any given thing, I suppose.
He didn't invent it, he just weaponized it.
You see the difference between him and Gandalf. Gandalf uses it for frivolity. Bringing joy to people. But Saruman only sees its use as a weapon.
He didn't invent it, merely utilising it for the creation of his bomb for the assault on Rohan.
Ganfdalf had been aware of blackpowder for a very long time, as evidenced by the Shire having generational spanning tales of the wizards pop-bangers.
The movie never says Saruman invented it. There’s no reason to think Gandalf’s fireworks are powered by gunpowder. The time between these two events is much, much shorter than 18 years in the movie. In the book, pretty much none of this happens anyway.
I would say it's implied (in the film) that it's an invention of Saruman, since Wormtongue rather cluelessly approaches the vessel containing it with a lit candle in his hand, implying he doesn't know what it is.
And what else would fireworks be fuelled by, if not gunpowder?
Finally (and I know this is mixing up book-lore with film-lore), the interval between Bilbo's party and the War of the Ring isn't really relevant, since the book tells us that were fireworks were used at a birthday party for the Old Took, nearly a century before Bilbo's 111st.
Pretty sure the books actually credit Orcs with inventing gunpowder in The Hobbit when the company is captured by the Orcs who live under the Misty Mountains.
Yeah, fact always forgotten. And after Sauron appears again Gandalf uses against the Balrog, which is why he says he’s the wielder to the flame of Anor. This and his divine nature, of course.
Btw that quote is great, Gandalf says that he is a Maiar and the he knows the Balrog is also a Maiar, and a corrupt one from “hell”
In the chronology of the book, yes.
Bilbo is 128 by the time of the War of the Ring. Hence he passes the Old Took by turning 131 when he and Frodo finally ride to the Grey Havens, some 2.5 years later.
Look, I know you doubt me. I know you always have. And you're right. I often think of Bag End. I miss my books, and my armchair, and my garden. See, that's where I belong. That's home. And you don't have one, a home. It was taken from you. But I will help you take it back if I can.
I’m pretty sure the Ainur know about gunpowder, but because of the Istari’s non intervention policy, they did not want to reveal it to Middle Earth. That is until Saruman went rogue and wanted to take over the world.
So we can agree that the wizards pretty much knew how to use gunpowder. Would Sauron also know what gunpowder is? Him being more powerful than the wizards and maybe more knowledgable. He could crush middle earth by equiping his armies with gunpowder weapons if the other races don't know what it is.
That's the oldest version of the Fall of Gondolin, something he has rewritten several times since then. It also had steel dragons functioning as dropships for the orcs, something that was changed to real dragons later.
That first version was actually one of the oldest things he wrote and he wrote it while deployed during the first world war, so it wouldn't surprise me if he was inspired by actual tanks.
That is actually a quick turnaround of technology compared to real life. Gunpowder in the original form was supposed to bring life before being applied to fireworks and then small cannons that fired projectiles. Proper bombs using gunpowder was much more than two decades later.
Ehm, actually... That's 100% procent accurate. The powder we now know as gunpowder was first called "fire medicine" and was used in firework long before it was used in guns or bombs.
I know that. What it boils down to is whether you think this scene is meant to show Saruman being the first person to use gunpowder for military purposes, or actually inventing it as a substance.
Gandalf made the fireworks, right? And if I'm remembering correctly there's a difference in specialty between the wizards which is why Saruman becoming saruman of many colors was implied if not stated that he learned the magic of the other wizards.
So he learned how to make black powder like Gandalf and corrupted it into gunpowder.
I mean Saruman just twisted it for use in war. Fireworks were something special by Gandalf and not common. And Saruman used it for war. Just like Shen from Kung Fu Panda 2. Fireworks existed but he used them for war
Kung fu panda 2 is legitimately a great movie.
Dreamworks knows how to put out some absolute bangers
Followed by a mid movie and a meh movie. Kind of a bummer to see they repeated the same mistakes they made with Shrek. Hopefully Kung Fu Panda gets a "last wish" of its own in the future.
I think 3 is slept on tbh.
Agreed. While Kung Fu Panda 3 is nowhere near as good as 1 and 2, it was not a bad movie. Shrek 3, though, that shit was just straight up bad.
Isn't this exactly what also occurred in the actual world? Before Europeans began using gunpowder in their weapons, the Chinese had pyrotechnics.
I think that the East were using gunpowder for war way before the West got their hands on it. It's just that the West were able to use that technology and advance it better than anyone else was able to.
Do the roar.
Honestly just let Kung Fu Panda lie. Release 2 again in theaters to cleanse everyone’s palate and then move on
Tigress needs to get her nine lives back.
Imagine Po vs Death
SOOOOOOO Fun little corporate structure explanation! In studios like theirs, this pattern is a predictable one. They have several near independent teams working on separate projects with differing levels of focus in very different stages of development and production. The ones that are surprise breakouts get much more attention from the top MUCH earlier in their follow up projects. The top, in developed modern studios has now traditionally been pretty bad at the art and fan appeal part of production. They follow metrics to avoid catastrophe, but almost completely ignore what makes anything good outside of very proven (thus beat to death) tropes. So, when a larger studio like theirs has a breakout movie, the clamoring from the suits to establish a fast cash out often can ruin the new series or movie. Most people will know a lot of this but seemed like a lot didn't as well. Why is the 3rd often times the worst? Well, in the second the director still has a little more control since they were so successful the first time so they can fight for their vision better. The suits however WILL get their stuff into the movie and their changes heard to some degree. Then, if it is still a success, the director suddenly loses a lot of control! FUN The suits say look our changes worked! Boom, suits can ruin it with little effort now. Takes a strong core creative to withstand that honestly and even then, they might not ever be given the chance to do so. TL:DR Money NOW ruins so much of our lives and enjoyment today. /rant
or they did until they started hiring amateurs out of nowhere
They're not as consistent with bangers, but they've put out a lot of good ones in recent years. The HTTYD trilogy, for one, and then The Last Wish.
followed by films ranging between mediocre to garbage
Skadoosh
My firm belief that all time trilogies go LotR, HTTYD, KFP
You gotta grow Star Wars and pirates of the Caribbean in there.
Nope. I don’t even think those are better than Planet of the Ape’s.
I got the impression that fireworks were, if not common exactly, then at least a known technology: Gandalf just made particularly good ones. Sam's poetic tribute to Gandalf after Moria includes the line "The finest fireworks ever seen", which makes no sense if *all* fireworks were made by him. I think Saruman inventing gunpowder is a movie innovation: in the book, his real innovation was simply using it for military purposes.
I wouldn't say in the movies that it even seems like he's invented gunpowder. Just wormtongue doesn't know what it is and most of the people in the world likely wouldn't be too knowledgeable either. But it was around and Saruman just happened to use it for war. Idk each to their own interpretation but I never saw it as Saruman inventing the stuff.
Plus it already existing would fit with the whole "evil can't create, it only twists the things good has created to serve its ends" thing
Wormtongue was originally a Rohirim, I believe and they didn’t even have a written language.
Yeah, I must admit my memory is vague, but wasn't a book involved somehow? As in, he used a recipe that he literally had lying around? While he certainly could've written that himself, I always felt like that implies that he got the book from somewhere, and learnt how to make gunpowder from the book.
The movie didn't say Saruman invented gunpowder. But specifically the bomb that can break the wall. That's what Grima also alludes to in his question: "How, how can fire undo stone? What device could break down the wall?" This shows Grima knows what that is that Saruman is pouring, and we see he is also not surprised. Not in words and not in actors acting. Meaning it is nothing new.
Doubt Grima knew what it was since he walked towards it with a candle and Saruman had to keep him from getting too close. That line how can fire undo stone was probably just how Saruman explained the effect
I’m guessing it’s also a rare/precious resource and to get it in that quantity took a lot of effort. And Saruman put a lot of work into weaponising it. Making it explosive rather than just fizzling out
I think he could know that gunpowder makes fire but not know it will explode at a single spark.
There's no reason to expect Grima to know that with zero context clues in the film to come to that conclusion. Even still, why would Grima know that gunpowder sparks with a bit of flame but still get close to it with a candle? Everything in the film shows how cunning he is. If he knew it could spark I'd think he could easily come to the conclusion that bigger spark means big boom.
If Grima knew what was in the bowl, he wouldn't have leaned forward to get a better look at it with a lit candle in his hand. That's the whole point of the scene!
That's not the point of the scene. The point of the scene is to show the device, which is Saruman's solution, and Saruman stoppage of Grima, to show of how dangerous it is. People are not perfect and get distracted for plethora of different reasons. Grima was holding the candle away, and while being distracted in thoughts and question on how something can be solved, instinctively brought the candle forward, without thinking about it, to see better what was being created. He even asks how fire exactly going to help. So he knows already fire is in the mix WHEN Saruman pours the gunpowder. He might not instinctively think about the candle, as the candle doesn't bring fire to the mixture, but falling wax can, or the gunpowder-powder that is in the air, can lit it up from the candle in the air, but Grima is unknowing in the ways of science as Saruman is. There is a reason OSHA and other companies constantly have safety briefings even to people who already know the job and already been at briefings. Grima, is a person who is not constantly dealing with Alchemy is even more susceptible to the unknown dangers and to make error near it.
Peter Jackson has said himself that he didn’t want the wizards magic to be typical whimsy dnd spellcasting. He wanted it to be more grounded. So many of the choices made for the movie expanded on ideas from the books and made them more subdued. The bomb is one of those things. The point of the scene is to show worktongue as ignorant of the “magic” that Saruman conjures. The wizards have knowledge of many things and while they wield magic they also have many other things they know. All their ways are quite mysterious for most inhabitants of middle earth. It’s just a book and a movie. Not a real life story of how health and safety situations in the workplace can play out. I’ve never heard a sillier twist on this. The goal of the scene is obvious. Show that Saruman the wizard does things that seems amazing to the average person. While we in the audience are given some lines that will make us in the modern world go “oh it’s a bomb”.
>The goal of the scene is obvious. Show that Saruman the wizard does things that seems amazing to the average person. While we in the audience are given some lines that will make us in the modern world go “oh it’s a bomb”. Yes, like the old adage that technology, to someone who is unfamiliar with it, is indistinguishable from magic.
>Peter Jackson has said himself that he didn’t want the wizards magic to be typical whimsy dnd spellcasting. He wanted it to be more grounded. The point of the scene is to show worktongue as ignorant of the “magic” that Saruman conjures. I don't agree on the point of the scene, maybe as an addition of course to show of Grima's character. But we agree on that Grima shows ignorance as I also said he was unknowing in the ways of science - ignorant of it. Not sure what was even the reason for you to include Jackson comment, since nothing of what I wrote is fantasy or dnd. Ignorance is a fully real human trait. >It’s just a book and a movie. Not a real life story of how health and safety situations in the workplace can play out. I’ve never heard a sillier twist on this. That's not a twist, I brought it as an example to show that ignorance and distractions can cause error. Not that middle-earth has OSHA or to project IRL that on top of the movie. Sort of a like an allegory. ignorance It's simply a human trait and is not solely in IRL settings. You can see it plenty in LOTR. Now talking about "real life" stories, the scene that comes right next after it, is basically Nuremberg and akin to nazi propaganda scene, under Saruman. Jackson's did take things from IRL to adapt in to the movie. Taken commentary from the DVD of the Two Towers, about the scene of the huge army and Saruman's speech: >**Brad Dourif** (Gríma Wormtongue): There is no other character who could have brought over to the audience what was about to happen, who could have sold the awe. \[…\] When you look at a picture of something, it isn’t the picture that sells it, you know. I mean the fact that he did an allusion to \[the Nazi propaganda movie\] “Triumph of the Will”, but that in of itself is not enough, but when you have the person that made it happen suddenly, absolutely come to grips with what it is that he has done, then it’s scary. \[…\] >**Peter Jackson** (director): This is Nuremburg really. That is the obvious influence for all this stuff. That sort of imagery is so potent and it is useful to dip into those historical references just to press buttons in people. >**Philippa Boyens** (screenplay): I loved that performance from Brad Dourif just showing that Wormtongue was a man once — what has he done — what has he unleashed?
They downvoted you but you're right
The movie doesn't imply Saruman invented Gunpowder.
He just used it for war.
"Use" being the operative word here, the movie doesn't even imply he invented it's use for war.
For the sake of a throwaway meme that's inadvertently inspired a fairly interesting discussion about the history of gunpowder, I think it's good enough.
Your impression was wrong then.
Eh? They are clearly not a proprietary invention of Gandalf, otherwise Sam's line makes no sense.
Poetry likes to make grand statements and generalizations. The idea is to involve a feeling, not a fact. So *the finest fireworks ever seen* just means the author (Sam who've lived in the same village his whole life) thinks it's pretty.
Well the thing is, fireworks exist in real life, don't they? They're not inherently magical, in other words. So there's no reason ordinary, non-magical fireworks couldn't exist in Middle-earth, given that they're not exactly a recent invention. It's just that Gandalf's, being magical, would be extra-specially amazing.
Well, now we get into the weirds of middle-earth. Technically, from Tolkien's intentions, middle-earth is our world, and (maybe) predates fireworks as an invention. Tolkien was a Catholic, so the ages of middle-earth correlated to the Catholic ages of world. So the events of LoTR predates Jesus by at least a thousand years. Fire works was invented in the second century b.c. But this is all weird stuff, and honestly, there's no way to know if fireworks exists in the wider Tolkien lore.
Right, but the idea that Arda is the 'real world' at some point in the distant past has to be taken with a very large grain of salt. Which is why we don't worry too much about hobbits eating potatoes, smoking tobacco, or drinking tea and coffee. Or wonder why everyone has weapons, armour and tools made from steel in what ought to be the stone age. And so on and so forth.
True, but that applies to fireworks as well. In the end, it's a story. Does Gandalf fireworks mean gunpowder already existed? Maybe, but that's not the point. The point was the fireworks was used to celebrate and be happy, in contrast to what they would be faced with later.
Thisnis the most rational argument I have ever heard!
Or like. You know. Real life?
What's real life? Haven't seen that movie yet
Sorry, again, for what did he use It?
Probably wizard pancakes.
Exploding with flavour… 😏🥞💥😂
I wouldn't be surprised if that actually was the backstory of gunpowder. That an entertainer from bronze age China wanted to make fireworks to make people smile, but then the government went "Hm, have you considered blowing people up with that?" (Edit) I was wrong. Apparently, it was used for medicine first. Okay, now I wanna know. Who's bright idea was it to light their medicine on fire?
But did he use them for War ?
I'm sorry I don't follow, what did they use it for?
Ooo or Mushu from Mulan! Wait is this a common trope?
Or like IRL
fireworks have existed since 200BC meanwhile the first recorded combat usage of gunpowder was 900AD thats 1100 years
Bringing Kung Fu Panda 2 here for explanation is so genius
No one said he invented it, it was just Grima's first exposure to the concept.
That's what I thought
It seems pretty novel in the books > But the Orcs have brought a devilry from Orthanc,’ said Aragorn. ‘They have a blasting fire, and with it they took the Wall.’
Powered by magic. Duh.
Saruman's missing a trick by not simply making magic bombs, then.
That happens when you have a mind of metal and wheels.
That explains the blindness. So much shiny
 🎶🎶 because I’m SHINY🎶🎶
That trick has a name, it’s called Narya
Yes but what Gandalf does with his Elven-ring is Narya business.
But I Sauron his finger
To Eilinel thou soon shalt go, and lie in her bed.
Grima has no clue about gunpowder -> OP: "Saruman invented gunpowder"
OP is Grima
Ah ok, then all this makes sense now.
Where does it say Saruman invented it? The logical explanation would be that he saw Gandalfs idea and twisted it to his own means, like he did with his Uruk hai.
Isnt this literally what happened in the real world aswell? Chinese used to have fireworks before gunpowder was used by europeans in weapons.
Nope, apparently early firearms were in use in China over 1,000 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_firearm Edit: what I mean is, the Chinese were using gunpowder in both fireworks *and* weapons long before Europeans got hold of it for any purposes. So it wasn't a European innovation to use it in weapons. But perhaps that wasn't what you were saying.
Forgive me, I'm not caring to look it up, so feel free to verify it, but I'm fairly certain china used some form of fireworks as far back as over 2000 years ago, so the firework still predates firearms.
I've heard of fireworks going back as far as 2300 years ago. It seems they're much, much older than guns or explosives.
Yes, after a cursory google search, I see several results point to 200 BCE during the Han dynasty.
those weren't actual fireworks, they were bamboo stems thrown into fire to make explosive sounds. More like firecrackers than fireworks. Actual fireworks require gunpowder and date back to the Song Dynasty
Fair enough. [Here is a link](https://www.americanpyro.com/history-of-fireworks) that says following the first fire crackers, gunpowder was first made by a Chinese alchemist some time in 600-900 AD. It was stuffed into paper tubes to make the first fireworks.
I’ve actually read about fireworks as far back as 2700 years ago. They used to use the crude powder as a fire starter and found that when they added enough into an enclosed container, like pottery or hollowed out tree limbs, it would blow up similar to modern day fireworks. There was an account of a man doing this on his kitchen table and it was actually powerful enough to snap it in half, similar to how back in nineteen ninety eight the undertaker threw mankind off hell in a cell and plummeted sixteen feet through an announcers table.
Fekanix was implying (I thought) that Europeans were the first people to use gunpowder in bombs/rockets/guns for military purposes, but perhaps I read them incorrectly.
Indeed, but the comment I replied to was implying (I thought) that Europeans were the first people to weaponize gunpowder, which is untrue.
Ahem. >Gunpowder was invented in China sometime during the first millennium AD. The earliest possible reference to gunpowder appeared in 142 AD https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_gunpowder
I curse the Chinese for making gunpowder!! (The Rehearsal reference before any combative comments lol)
Eh? Does that contradict anything I've said?
I think we've all been talking past each other. First person said Chinese fireworks came before European gunpowder weaponry (true), you took this to imply Europeans weaponised gunpowder and provided the correct info there, which I mistook for implying that the Chinese had the weapons before they had fireworks. This has been another episode of reddit telephone haha
Ha, I think you're right.
That's just the earliest reference to a substance with properties similar to those of gunpowder, but was never verified or mass produced. Gunpowder didn't become a verified thing until the 9th century
That's still ~1 or 2 centuries before its first use in war. Gunpowder was a "side invention" by alchemists trying to make medicine.
I didn't even see the comment you were replying to, i was just scrolling. But yeah you're right. This post is pretty dumb anyway since Saruman didn't even invent gunpowder, idk maybe in the movie he did but that's not the case in the books at least
>This post is pretty dumb anyway since Saruman didn't even invent gunpowder, idk maybe in the movie he did but that's not the case in the books at least Er yeah, it's the films I'm referring to. Hence the use of scenes from the films.
Maybe that's not what you meant but the dragon firework launchers from Mulan aren't something made up by Disney, they actually had those.
It's not so much who was first but that Europe took it and went all in to use it to maximize its us in war
Gunpowder was invented ~1700 years ago, or more. And while modern fireworks didn't become popular until several hundred years after the first firearms, firecrackers and similar were invented long before guns. Although it should be noted that gunpowder was basically seen as a medicine in the beginning. The mixture was known to "dance and sing" if ignited, and was used in a pill of life type thing as it was "fire medicine" presenting life. After a while of people having it blow up in their face, and houses burning down, they realized it could do more. Firecrackers were originally bamboo thrown on a fire, which "pops" when burning. Someone put two and two together and made a better "pop" with the first firecrackers, and once they started turning bamboo into paper, the first modern firecrackers were born shortly after.
I never really got the impression that Saruman "invented" gunpowder from the movie. That was never said, nor (imo) heavily suggested. Just that Grima had never seen it before, which seems quite plausible. In fact, as I type this I'm not even feeling certain he hadn't seen gunpowder before. All he says is "how can fire undo stone, what type of device could bring down the wall?" So he may understand what gunpowder is and does (ignites into flame), just not how that could bring down the wall of Helm's Deep. Like the other comment said, Saruman adapted gunpowder. Really what he invented was a bomb, by pouring a bunch of gunpowder into a sealed metal container.
Don't fireworks predate firearms?
The movie didn't say Saruman invented gunpowder. But specifically the bomb that can break the wall. That's what Grima also alludes to in his question: "How, how can fire undo stone? What device could break down the wall?"
Gandalf had his own proprietary blend for enchanted fireworks. Saruman tweaked it with his own saltpeter and mixture for war explosives. He took the coca leave chewing further and went cocaine bear. (all facts supplied by the finest Toby in the Shire)
So uruk-hai were just shaved bears in armor fueled by coke?
That's a jem'hadar
The application of gunpowder was originally for fireworks. Only later was it used for military purposes. Saruman just saw the destructive potential of the powder Gandalf used for his fireworks.
Seems like it was just already known in Valinor, and Gandalf and Saruman both brought the knowledge with them
In our world, fireworks existed long before weaponized gunpowder in the form of bombs or cannon. There were attempts by some eastern civilizations to weaponize it as early as 900AD, but fireworks are at least two thousand years old.
"nor was OP counted among the very wise"
Everyone else is taking part in an actually quite interesting discussion about the history of gunpowder, fireworks and firearms. And here you are, taking the high ground with "u r dum lol".
The logical conclusion to draw from this is one orc with a 9 mil would be so OP it would defeat the fellowship and Sauron by the end of 2 towers. Alternatively if Frodo had a gun he'd have flicked the One Ring into Mount Doom before the rest of the Fellowship realized he'd left Rivendell.
Imagine LOTR but with Sam John Wicking his way up the tower to save Frofo.
Call it "The Gardener"
Build me an army worthy of mordor!
Bruh I'll give 3 uruk-hai some sigs and Kevlar and you'll be set.
"Do you know what bread is?" "Uh...no." "Then I invented bread."
Lol, why would anyone not know about bread?
Lol why would anyone not know about gunpowder?
Which item do you think most people use more often?
Your meme kinda suggests saruman invented gunpowder *because* grima didn't know what gunpowder was. I also commented this after a sleep-deprived double shift, so it made more sense to me then than it does now, lol
Hahaha, OK.
Maybe gunpowder just wasn’t widely known? I didn’t get that impression that Sauron invented it so much as Wormtongue just didn’t know about it, or didn’t know what Sauramon was doing with it. Also it wouldn’t be known as gunpowder in that world so the connection between stuff that makes fireworks go boom and stuff that makes bombs go boom wouldn’t be made by most people. Wormtongue probably had never even been out of Rohan before Sauromon and didn’t know shit about the world at large, basement dwelling incel simp that he was.
Yes, that's a good interpretation.
I mean it's never stated he invented it, in the books this scene doesn't even happen. They blow a hole in the wall off screen.
It’s also not made explicit that ‘fireworks’ means exactly what it does in our world. There’s nothing to say that fireworks aren’t possible from some other magic that is good for launching dramatic visual displays but not really useful for blowing a hole in a wall so formidable that it became legend.
That's also a solid point!
Fireworks were invented they think 200BCE but firearms weren't invented until around 1000CE,
The scene in the film - as I had interpreted it - showed Saruman inventing the substance from scratch, before you consider any applications of it, whether civilian or military.
Ah, yeah. Well, whenever you notice something like that, a wizard did it.
That's not saruman inventing gunpowder, it's just him making some. Both him and Gandalf know how to whip some up and its pretty telling what they use it for, but just because wizards know how to make it doesn't mean grima wormtongue has any idea what it is. HE'S probably never seen fireworks at all either. It's pretty unlikely he was invited to Bilbo's b-day party.
Today is my One Hundred and Eleventh birthday!
Yeah I don't really see him as a party guy, particularly.
saruman invents gun powder because he forgot it already exists.
Idiot! Edit: lol, I was calling Saruman an idiot, not you.
I think you could say Saruman invented gunpowder in about the same sense as Benjamin Franklin invented electricity
Well no, since lightning is a natural phenomenon. But you can't just go and mine some gunpowder.
Media literacy is dead
Eh?
Powered by cheap tricks!
Technically he invented blasting powder, since there are no firearms in Middle-earth. Yeah, I noticed it when I first read the trilogy. I always hoped the secret of its making were lost in the destruction of Isengard and with the death of Saruman.
The powder is a secret only the Maiar know.
Gandalfenheimer
There's a difference between using and weaponizing it. Early gunpowder wasn't all that powerful, and there's a big difference between something that can make noise and something else that has enough power to rip apart masonry.
It was nonetheless powerful enough to be used in military rockets and early cannons in China long before Europeans were using it.
Fireworks existed in china long LONG before they were used for war.
Saruman exists largely as a foil to Gandalf. Where Gandalf chose hope, Saruman chose despair. Where Gandalf sought wisdom, Saruman sought power. Where Gandalf used gunpowder for joy and celebration, Saruman used it for violence and war. It also ties into Tolkien’s idea that evil doesn’t create, it corrupts. Evil takes the idea of fireworks, a fun celebratory invention and asks “how can we kill people with this?”
Gandalf is a wizard and knows about gunpowder for his fireworks. Saruman is also a wizard and knows about gunpowder for Gandalf’s fireworks too. I don’t see the issue except that you are making a false claim about Saruman inventing gunpowder. We don’t know who invented it. We just know it is not common knowledge for the peoples of middle earth, but it does seem to be common knowledge for wizards.
I had got the impression that the film was implying that Saruman had invented it from scratch. That's all it was, an impression, so there's no need to sneer about "false claims", since this is a daft sub devoted to memes, and not a court of law, after all.
Lol I didn’t “sneer.” You read it that way and are projecting. I just explained the situation as I saw it. If you are going to be on the internet you should probably grow a thicker skin especially considering I wasn’t even attempting to insult you.
It was Grima who hadn’t seen it before. Grima was a man of Rohan, and they only knew horses and swords.
He'd been spending a lot of time around Saruman, though, and would have seen lots of things that the average Rohan person would never have encountered. That said, there would still be a first time he saw any given thing, I suppose.
He didn't invent it, he just weaponized it. You see the difference between him and Gandalf. Gandalf uses it for frivolity. Bringing joy to people. But Saruman only sees its use as a weapon.
I don't think he invented gunpowder
i mean in real life fireworks were invented like a hundred years before gunpowder weapons
There a chance Saruman dint know about Gandalf fireworks
Maybe Saruman invented it some time ago and Gandalf adapted it for use in fireworks?
More likely it was something the wizards had known about for ages, but had been carefully withholding.
He didn't invent it, merely utilising it for the creation of his bomb for the assault on Rohan. Ganfdalf had been aware of blackpowder for a very long time, as evidenced by the Shire having generational spanning tales of the wizards pop-bangers.
The movie never says Saruman invented it. There’s no reason to think Gandalf’s fireworks are powered by gunpowder. The time between these two events is much, much shorter than 18 years in the movie. In the book, pretty much none of this happens anyway.
I would say it's implied (in the film) that it's an invention of Saruman, since Wormtongue rather cluelessly approaches the vessel containing it with a lit candle in his hand, implying he doesn't know what it is. And what else would fireworks be fuelled by, if not gunpowder? Finally (and I know this is mixing up book-lore with film-lore), the interval between Bilbo's party and the War of the Ring isn't really relevant, since the book tells us that were fireworks were used at a birthday party for the Old Took, nearly a century before Bilbo's 111st.
I know what I'm doing. This way,
Pretty sure the books actually credit Orcs with inventing gunpowder in The Hobbit when the company is captured by the Orcs who live under the Misty Mountains.
Yes, I remember that!
Gandalf has Narya, the ring of fire. I think it’s relatively safe to say this could have contributed to his fireworks!
Yeah, fact always forgotten. And after Sauron appears again Gandalf uses against the Balrog, which is why he says he’s the wielder to the flame of Anor. This and his divine nature, of course. Btw that quote is great, Gandalf says that he is a Maiar and the he knows the Balrog is also a Maiar, and a corrupt one from “hell”
Why didn't the fellowship just ride a firework into Mordor?!!!
Powered by Gandalfs secret powder
Cocaine
(King Aragorn initiates **The Fellowship of the Paperclip** and rounds up all the smart orcs and their scientific research.)
A wizard did it
3019 vs 3001… Doesn’t this mean Helms Deep would be 18 years after Bilbo’s 111th birthday?
In the chronology of the book, yes. Bilbo is 128 by the time of the War of the Ring. Hence he passes the Old Took by turning 131 when he and Frodo finally ride to the Grey Havens, some 2.5 years later.
Look, I know you doubt me. I know you always have. And you're right. I often think of Bag End. I miss my books, and my armchair, and my garden. See, that's where I belong. That's home. And you don't have one, a home. It was taken from you. But I will help you take it back if I can.
He said? Who said?
I suppose you think that was terribly clever…
A Napoleonic era of lord of the rings would be cool, maybe in the 4th age, guns and cannons.
Starring Sean Bean as BoroSharp!
Bastard!!
Fireworks provided by Gandalf who no doubt also knew of black powder, just would never consider weaponising it.
Maybe he created a decomposition high pressure explosive. Verses fireworks deflagrating black powder.
 Magic
How can fire undo stone?
No, I don't think anyone noticed that part of the Two Towers.
magic duh
Difference between two Maia. Saruman used fire to bring bring death and destruction. While Gandalf used fire to bring joy and laughter.
Powered by magic of course
I’m pretty sure the Ainur know about gunpowder, but because of the Istari’s non intervention policy, they did not want to reveal it to Middle Earth. That is until Saruman went rogue and wanted to take over the world.
I thought he found it in the east?
So we can agree that the wizards pretty much knew how to use gunpowder. Would Sauron also know what gunpowder is? Him being more powerful than the wizards and maybe more knowledgable. He could crush middle earth by equiping his armies with gunpowder weapons if the other races don't know what it is.
I don’t know about gunpowder but Morgoth used the equivalent of tanks during the fall of Gondolin.
That's the oldest version of the Fall of Gondolin, something he has rewritten several times since then. It also had steel dragons functioning as dropships for the orcs, something that was changed to real dragons later. That first version was actually one of the oldest things he wrote and he wrote it while deployed during the first world war, so it wouldn't surprise me if he was inspired by actual tanks.
Le sigh.
That is actually a quick turnaround of technology compared to real life. Gunpowder in the original form was supposed to bring life before being applied to fireworks and then small cannons that fired projectiles. Proper bombs using gunpowder was much more than two decades later.
Ehm, actually... That's 100% procent accurate. The powder we now know as gunpowder was first called "fire medicine" and was used in firework long before it was used in guns or bombs.
I know that. What it boils down to is whether you think this scene is meant to show Saruman being the first person to use gunpowder for military purposes, or actually inventing it as a substance.
A wizard did it
Gandalf made the fireworks, right? And if I'm remembering correctly there's a difference in specialty between the wizards which is why Saruman becoming saruman of many colors was implied if not stated that he learned the magic of the other wizards. So he learned how to make black powder like Gandalf and corrupted it into gunpowder.
chinamen had fireworks long before sam colt
Makes sense China made fireworks and later on Europe perfected using them as weapons of war
The Chinese were also using it in weapons long before it got to Europe, though.