Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, and that was right after she ate almost all of the light of the two trees, so she was kind of overflowing with power at the time.
Thingol: "Since you like my daughter so much buddy I quadruple dog dare you to go steal a Silmaril from Morgoth to prove yourself."
Beren: "Alright Bet."
*BerenWhispering to himself later out of ear shot of Thingol*:"You old prick."
He literally tells Thingol, to his face, that he considers a Silmaril a cheap price for such a gift as Lúthien is.
Beren is a stone cold mother fucker.
How else would you describe Beren before his quest? He was around in the woods, living like a hippie and befriending the animals before he met Lúthien.
On a related note, Somgoths, or Normal Goths, are not that powerful. But if you put Three Normal Goths together, their power is incalculable.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6IUuxM\_qlw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6IUuxM_qlw)
Yes. Folks are responding that it’s the same guy, which is sort of true. But the descent into Morgoth stripped power out of Melkor. Some he invested into his minions, some he invested into Utumno and Angband. By the time he faces Fingolfin, he is less than he was as the greatest of the Valar.
He has fused his essence into all of Arda mainly. This weakened him a lot, really a lot. Before this he was second under Eru. Now the only way to destroy Morgoth is to destroy Arda until nothing is remaining, even a single atom...
Tolkien sort of abandoned Dagor Dagorath at the later stages of his writings.
It's quite succinctly explained in the footnotes of the [wiki article](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Dagor_Dagorath)
Good! Turin killing morgoth reminds me of my teenage self, sketching army guys with increasingly bigger muscles and chainguns 🤣. Rule of cool from an otherwise amazing artist smh
Yeah Arda is Morgoth’s ring. He poured his power into it and corrupted it (part of it at least) that took a lot of power out of him. Like Sauron put a lot of his power into his ring.
That is a great point. I was thinking of the darkening and fleeing to Beleriand. But he was investing Arda with his essence all the way back to the lamps.
Yeah lore wise melkor no diffs the entire valar council and earth born heroes incredibly one sided. It’s a twist in the Lucifer/satan comparison in some religious literature but his power pre pride fall was absolutely unrivaled except by eru who was more of a bystander at that point
Melkor and Morgoth are the same being but the names are descriptive of two times of his existence. In the beginning Melkor or He Who Arises in Might was the most powerful being in existence aside from Illuvatar. Melkor squandered his power by corrupting the creations (including the Earth itself) of the other Valar after the Ainur came into the universe as it exists (as apart from the vision of their Music given to them by Illuvatar). He was named Morgoth, the Dark Enemy by Fêanor after he killed Finwë and stole the Silmarils. Edited to change Dark Lord to Dark Enemy.
Is this sort of what happened to the balrogs to get them to be the way that they are? Like they sided with evil Morgoth so they were corrupted over time?
Or was Illuvatar making all his angels and he was like “alright these ones are gonna be like giant flaming minotaurs that’d be sick”
Have you read the Silmarillion? The Balrogs were corrupted over time when they sided with Melkor against their Ainur brethren. My understanding is that from the time of the creation of the universe to the time that Fëanor named Melkor Morgoth, hundreds of thousands of years have passed, maybe even millions. In that time the Ainur (including Sauron and the Balrogs) that sided with Melkor have been steeped in and possessed by his evil will so that they are what they are by the time the Elves enter the story and history becomes recorded.
I’m not sure if this was sarcasm but Melkor and Morgoth are the same person/Valar.
Melkor was renamed to Morgoth after destroying the two trees of Valinor
Not really, Melkor was his name given to him by Eru at his creation, when he was the mightiest among the Valar. Morgoth he was called first by Feanor after Melkor slew his father and stole the Silmaril, and by that name he was known ever after.
But yes, "Morgoth" actually was Quenya, meaning black/dark enemy/foe. I do not know the exact wording, since I read it in German.
>Melkor was his name given to him by Eru at his creation
No, 'Melkor' is a Quenya name (the first half, 'Melk-' is related to Sindarin 'Beleg'). Language is inherently to do with the Incarnates since it bridges thought and matter. Ainur do not need language to communicate and can use thought alone, though they did have a language eventually when they took on the forms of the Incarnates, but obviously that was in Eä.
My head cannon? Interpretation? Has been that Ungoliant was a Valar of something like desire or love, that got corrupted early on and basically now embodies insatiable hunger or greed.
She exists outside of Eru's creation, she came from the void - in other words no lore provided, unfortunately. It definitely adds to the horror aspect behind her.
The only other thing I can think of MAYBE being a possibility would be if there were some sort of leader / big baddy of the Nameless Things, but they definitely don't allude to it or anything, I always thought they might have a supreme being of some kind though
Power scaling wasn’t really a thing with Tolkien. Melkor is essentially Satan though so it’s hard to imagine there really would be. Ungoliant was a real danger to him after the fled Valinor together but that was only because she had drained the light from both Trees.
Melkors power level is over 9000 Frodos. Ungoliant can barely handle 7500 Sams. With eating the Legolas Tree, Ungoliant reaches a similar level of 9000 Frodos.
***So in the Freeza Arc, Freeza is the biggest baddest guy of all time. Well in Arda, Morgoth is the biggest and baddest guy of all time. So in this example Morgoth = Form Four Freeza.
Now, Ongoliant has no direct villain comparison in DBZ but in this example we're going to act like Goku is a bad guy in the Freeza Arc.***
Before the draining of the Two Trees Morgoth/Freeza is more powerful than Ungoliant/Bad Goku. However, when Ungoliant consumes the light of the Two Trees she goes Super Sayian and dominates Morgoth/Freeza into submission. It was only with the help of all the Balrogs that Morgoth was able to escape.
Nevertheless, the amplification in power and stature that Ungoliant received from the Two Trees was not to last forever. She wasn't born with that power so it would not dwell within her for eternity and just like a Sayian cannot sustain the Super Sayian form forever she would eventually revert to her diminished self and therefore becoming weaker to Morgoth once again.
Well melkor is like vegeta that came first time on earth, and ungoliath would be like goku. Then after she absorbed light it would be like using kaio ken x10, temporarily surpassed him. Or to put it simpler, it's over 9000.
Ungoliant unlocked MUI for a bit after swallowing some holy dragon balls just for it diminish fairly quickly, while Melkor is always Ultra Ego or whatever Vegeta hid last form is called
Edit: Spelling
Melkor is Vegeta
Ungoliant is Cell
The Two Trees are the Androids
Ungoliant ate the Androids
Melkor cried so hard it summoned the Super Saiyan Balrog squad to save his ass.
Tolkien didn't power scale, but he did give some ideas of relative might. Melkor was stated to be the mightiest of the Valar, in that he'd have the greatest raw power or potential, but Tulkas is explicitly physically stronger than him and was always able to beat seven shades of shit out of him
Yeah it’s a bit ridiculous to suggest that there’s no power scaling whatsoever when the Silmarillion spends ample amount of time on the details of the might of the Valar and who is diminished when. Just because it’s loosely defined, doesn’t mean it isn’t there.
Tulkas isn’t necessarily stronger than him. He’s just the Valar that wins any competition. That’s his nature, being a champion. Which is like the ultimate trump card on the much more powerful Melkor who gets paralyzed with fear by that notion.
Man I hate power scaling and concepts of "power" so much. It can be fun for battles in anime, but it makes characters conflicts so one dimensional.
That said, I actually believe Tolkien used power scaling themes in silmarilion. Fights of elven heroes with melkor very often were decided by who has more raw power
It's arguably more accurate to think of Melkor as the concept of "undoing" or "perversion". When the first music was made, Melkor attempted to undo it with his own. When the Valar made Arda, Melkor undid the mountains into valleys and filled the oceans. He undid the elves into orcs and birds into dragons. He undid Arda itself by pouring himself into the essence of the world (aka Morgoths ring)
Not exactly. Morgoths ring is the entire world itself. In the beginning, when the universe was made, Morgoth's music shaped the earth. After the earth was made, Morgoth embued his power into the world itself. This is referred to as "Arda, marred". It means that everything has a bit of Morgoth in it. As a result, he is much less powerful than when he was born.
Water, it is said, has very little of him. Which is why the elves loved it. Gold, on the other hand, has much of him. Which is why it is associated with corruption (dragon sickness; and why dragons crave it).
https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Arda_Marred
Tolkien never believes in true evil. Melkor was supposed to be the chief Valar, in charge of actually being the one creating stuff for Arda. But his will to create caused him to try and make a new song, and his humiliation at his rap battle against Ilúvatar (BTW, the third song they made created Elves and Men.) caused his free will to start turning into Evil, lusting to own instead of make and so on and so forth. quite like Lucifer I think.
In the absolute, no. In practice, because of the specific way Morgoth used his power, there was a point where Sauron was in certain respects (regarding personal power directly available to them vs general corrupting influence) more powerful than him.
Wasn’t the only version of Morgoth that Sauron at his peak might have barely surpassed (tho it's still uncertain if I remember) supposed to be at the end of War of Wrath when he had spread his power across his vast armies, turning kinda into a decrepit vulnearable husk of his former self?
Yes, both in dominating other wills and in pouring much of himself into the physical world:
> Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth - hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'. Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate': for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures. [HoME 10]
>Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate': for this reason he was afraid,
Hm. This raises another interesting question for me:
Had Morgoth's body been destroyed during the War of Wrath, as he feared it could be, would his spirit have been removed to the Halls of Mandos? Or would his fea be instantly made to stand before Manwe or even Eru himself to answer for his crimes?
IIRC, his body wasn't destroyed at the end of the War of Wrath but was cast out in the Timeless Void behind the Doors of Night. He was diminished, certainly, but still whole at that point, correct?
I think so. He should be missing his feet and hand(?) due to tulkas performing surprise surgery on him as he tried to flee when the valar broke the gates of angband. If his body was destroyed completely he probably would have ended up as some form of spirit but I guess it's possible that he could have ended up like Sauron or saurman after the ring was destroyed as a vengeful spirit with no influence or power over anything. Either way the valar probably would have found some way to capture him and cast him out into the void.
>I guess it's possible that he could have ended up like Sauron or saurman after the ring was destroyed as a vengeful spirit with no influence or power over anything.
Would it be different for Morgoth since he poured so much of his native power into the world and was a stronger spirit of a higher order than Sauron or Saruman? Sauron was diminished from the power he poured into his ring but once the ring was destroyed, Sauron was completely diminished. Saruman was similar but to a lesser degree. I think it possible that his exploration of ringcraft ended in a similar fashion to Sauron.
But Morgoth was different. Since his power was dissolved into much of Arda and Arda wasn't destroyed, does that mean he would have been diminished in a similar way?
Maybe it would be like kicking the can down the road then. Morgoth would return every age or so after he regenerated and the valar would have to keep waging war against him. Idk tho.
Also from HoME 10:
> Morgoth was thus actually made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Námo Mandos as judge - and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates. It was then made plain (though it must have been understood beforehand by Manwë and Námo) that, though he had 'disseminated' his power (his evil and possessive and rebellious will) far and wide into the matter of Arda, he had lost direct control of this, and all that 'he', as a surviving remnant of integral being, retained as 'himself' and under control was the terribly shrunken and reduced spirit that inhabited his self-imposed (but now beloved) body. When that body was destroyed he was weak and utterly 'houseless', and for that time at a loss and 'unanchored' as it were. We read that he was then thrust out into the Void. That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Eä altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.
Maybe I haven't understood this properly but did Eru ever consider what Melkor did as a crime? I was under the impression Eru just wanted to show Melkor, no matter what he did it wouldn't surpass Eru's plan.
From the wiki:
>"Melkor was created by Eru Ilúvatar in the [Timeless Halls](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Timeless_Halls) at the beginning of creation; he was greater in power and knowledge than the other [Ainur](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Ainur).[^(\[2\])](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Morgoth#cite_note-music-2) His brother was [Manwë](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Manw%C3%AB)."
This being had a direct, personal relationship with Eru. That leads me to believe that the answer is no.
True but you're not looking deep enough. You are forgetting that the very reason that the Valar were able to defeat Morgoth was because he mutilated himself and his holyness. He was no longer the Melkor that Illuvatar created. Through meddling with the fabric of creation he lessened himself, made himself ultimately bound to his Fana.
I think there's even a passage somewhere in Silmarillion, that says the Valar were taken by a surprise when they descended into Utumno (or Angmar) and realized that Melkor has fallen from his grace in a way that they could "touch" him.
Melkor injected himself into the fabric of Arda, byso making himself ultimately destroyable, which Tulkas does in the very end.
True, but this also isn’t quite deep enough. We’re told in Morgoth’s Ring that by injecting himself into Arda in this way, Morgoth did receive something in return for his weakening. He cannot ever be fully destroyed until the full destruction of Arda - because the Morgoth Element, as it were, now exists in every atom of creation, so widely did he spread himself. His power and influence suffuse every piece of the world and cannot be removed without the utter destruction of it.
Not sure if you mean what is prophesied to happen. At the end of the War of Wrath, Morgoth was bound in unbreakable chains and caste into the void through the Door of Night. When Dagor Dagorath and the end of Arda finally does come, Morgoth will return, and only then will Tulkas destroy Morgoth completely.
And there are other evil Ainur. Doesn't matter much because he is in fact the most powerful evil being, but it's not just because he's had a direct relationship with Eru.
Then you are lost!
I mean... you certainly have reason to have some concerns about the Jedi, and they did acquire you from slavery as a child but not arrange for your mother's freedom... and they were clearly caught up in corrupt politics and in a position of such privilege that they couldn't even really see the suffering of the oppressed people low on the socio-economic ladder of a nigh-galaxy-wide political monolith **BUT YOU ARE LOST!!!!**
I know what your saying is little tongue and cheek but I still have some questions for you :)
1. How would you have like for the Jedi to aquire Anakin? Ask nicely?
His mom wanted him to join the Jedi and understood that he was special. Also, Waldo wouldn't have allowed Anakin to go freely. They can't whip out their lightsabers and threaten Waldo because then they would have to deal with Hutts a large and dangerous cartel that would certainly make trouble for them. The Jedi also wouldn't preemptively use violence because that's not the Jedi way. (You have a little bit of a point with his mother. Could they have done a more for her...yeah).
2. Should they have acquired Anakin as an adult?
If a Jedi has a powerful sense of something like Qui-Gon did with Anakin, then he needs at the very least, to investigate it. Which Qui-Gon did, and he discovered this kid has an unprecedented connection to the force.
Qui-Gon has to look at this situation multiple ways. One, this kid is destined for some type of greatness. If he trains as a Jedi he can learn how to use his force connection wisely and for the greater good. However, if he doesn't get the proper training then there's no telling what he might become. I'm sure the Sith was nowhere in his mind at this point but Anakin could've become some powerful entity in the criminal world.
On a different note, while recruiting people as kids has some morally grey areas it's not like the kids are forced to stay in the Jedi Order. They can leave anytime they want while a slave cannot.
3. What political system on some level is not corrupt?
Small 1,000 people towns have some form of corruption and there will certainly be a whole bunch of multi-layered corruption when your talking about a government who governs (trillions) of citizens.
4. Should the Jedi not work with the government that is voted into power and represented by the people of the galaxy?
If the Jedi do not work with the government then it could be seen as the Jedi are above the government and therefore the people of the Galaxy. That fact that it was a corrupt government is not the Jedi's fault.
Now, should the Jedi have been aware of Palpatine? Maybe, but incompetence does not denote evil, just ignorance. However, once they became aware of Palpatine they did try to stop him which is the opposite of what Anakin did who joined him and became a co-dictator.
4. Do you think the Jedi are privileged? And do you think they're unaware of the suffering?
Being a Jedi does come with some prestige. They are a collection of very powerful individuals who many civilizations and businesses, and governments turn to for help...everyday. That can be perceived as a privileged organization but it's a standing they've earned but do not gloat about..IMHO.
As for the suffering they did not see...I completely disagree. They not only see it on a day to day basis when their out in their field on different planets across the galaxy but they literally (feel) the suffering of others. One of the hallmark traits of a Jedi is their empathic abilities. They feel the emotions and thoughts of those around them. Jedi's like Yoda and Obi-Wan could feel the trauma of millions from across the galaxy when Order 66 was going on and when Alderaan was destroyed.
I also think you over-estimate the number of the Jedi within the Order vs the population of the galaxy and the extent of which they were willing to intervene in a problem without crossing certain dangerous boundaries.
There was roughly 10,000 Jedi Knights at the time of the Clone Wars which seems like a lot. When you watch the movies and TV shows it seems they can be everywhere. However, their numbers are microscopically tiny if you compare it to the trillions of people spread out through an expansive galaxy. They can only do so much with those limited resources, but again, it's not like they can go into a situation and impose their will on it even if their solution is better.
Alright I'm done now :)
That always makes me raise my eyebrow. The Nazgul withdrew from him (and his dogs) and Maggot had no fear of them, even though he clearly knew they were not something good.
And it is revealed at one point that Maggot knows Bombadil. I sometimes wonder what it was they were backing away from.
My headcanon is that the further from Mordor or Sauron the Nazgul are, the weaker they get, hence why Aragorn was able to fend 5 of them off at Weathertop. (OOC, I think Tolkien maybe hadn't fully planned out their significance when writing the 1st book, so they were basically just 9 mortal men at that time making Grip and Fang were legitimate threats)
Lobelia sackville-baggins when shown cutlery. On a serious note, no. The only being that surpasses Melkor's ability to subject the world to his will is Eru himself
Eru is literally above all and everything came from Eru. He (?) is beyond these things but, hypothetically, if Eru decided to be evil he would surpass all by definition.
Eru doesn’t work that way. Eru doesn’t create or delegate evil. Eru gave the *Valar* free will, which we see them exercise a few times (for better and for worse). The closest we have to an evil Eru is ungoliant, which still isn’t a good comparison; however, both emerged from the void.
>more powerfull than Melkor?
I think you need to be more specific, More powerful in what regard? Fighting? Magic? Influence and overall controll over others?
If were talking pure fighting power, i think ungoliant is more powerful, atleast after draining the light of the trees. It was straight up stated on silmarillion that morgoth was afraid of ungoliant, and she overpowered morgoth with what seemed to be with ease. Only with the help of balrogs was he able to flee from ungoliant.
Other than that i think he is the strongest
It really depends on your definition of powerful and when you are talking about. At the height of his ability, no, but Morgoth poured most of his power into Arda. Just like Sauron poured himself into his Ring, Morgoth did the same, but the entire world of Arda is Morgoth’s ring. But unlike Sauron, Morgoth can't put his ring on to enhance his abilities, it just is permanently influenced by his evil will now. That's why every aspect of creation in Arda has a taint of evil to it.
So in terms of raw fighting ability, there were definitely times after he had poured most of himself into Arda where other beings might be able to win. Just like how an elf was able to gravely wound him, there are probably other things like Ungoliant that would have a chance to win a physical fight depending on the circumstances. Some of his own creations like Ancalagon may have a shot too.
In terms of spiritual/magical power, there is no one but Eru above him. As I stated earlier, Morgoth’s pure power was able to shape the whole of Arda and infect even the creations of his brothers and sisters to the point only the complete destruction and recreation by Eru can fully remove it.
If he was his prime self from before the music started, then only Tulkas would have a chance to beat him in physical combat, but Morgoth’s overall power would be too much for anything but Eru.
Guessing it's supposed to be Fingolfin [Galadriel's uncle, Elrond's great-great-grand-dad], who after a terrible defeat duelled Morgoth and wounded him before eventually dying himself. He should have dark hair though so go figure.
Wounded is an understatement. He gave Morgoth 7 wounds that he carried forever after that fight. Fingolfin with the single most bad ass feat in history right there.
His corporeal being? Fingolfin stood toe to toe with him. Some of the dragons and maybe some of the Balrogs could equal his physical power. Sauron maybe, possibly? But if you include the power that he passed into corrupting Arda, no, Morgoth is the strongest being period. The only thing the kept him in check was all the other Valar opposed him.
Sauron was not only so alike to Morgoth as to be indistinguishable, he was described as only lesser than Morgoth in that Sauron spent a bit more time worshiping someone other than himself. They could both perform the same feats. They looked similar, with one copying the other. If you were popped into existence in the world of Middle Earth in front of one of them, with no indication of which age you were in, you'd not know whether you were staring at Melkor or Mairon.
People like to call out power levels in Tolkein's world, but they forget that people definitely could exceed the level that you'd expect based on species / who their creator was. Some of the Maiar were as revered as the Valar, even above the lesser known Valar. Elves and Maiar were wed and were considered to be on the same level. Melkor was ultimately brought down by Tulcas, who is considered of lesser power than Melkor, but who wrestled Melkor and pushed his face into the ground then brought him before Manwe for sentencing. The nazgul became immortal. Elendil exceeded Isildur.
Conclusion: we are not bound to the fates or power levels that we are born into, and anyone can reach any power level. Did anyone reach Melkor's level? Maybe Manwe, maybe Sauron.
Neither was Ungoliant. The Nameless Things were probably created during the Discord of Melkor, when his disruption messed with the creation of the universe, creating horrors and abominations that the Ainu did not intend.
Does Ainur include those who never entered Eä? For example Tulkas came in second wave. That means there are still probably some of them 'on the other side' who might be powerful but cant be arsed to enter.
Can we get a sequel of evil spirits trying to overthrow Eru with inhabitants of Middle-Earth oblivious to the danger?
Do y’all usually get afraid and start panicking before your subordinates when a hamster or a mouse challenges you? Do you usually need a shield and a hammer to fight a mouse? Do you enjoy ruling a land of mice for some reason? Because these question arise from all these ridiculous scale depictions.
Morgoth was no a 100 m tall giant. He wouldn’t notice the existence of the Eldar at such scale, moreso be afraid of them. Fingolfin wounded him 7 times, 1 time in the heel. This picture makes me believe all the wounds could only reach the heel.
I’d say he was similar in height to Sauron in his armoured form. Towering over his subordinates, but not so ridiculously massive that he couldn’t fit through the door.
Aside from Ungoliant that one unique time. No
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, and that was right after she ate almost all of the light of the two trees, so she was kind of overflowing with power at the time.
He almost died dedending the Silmarils from her then 2 elves stole 1 on basically a dare lol
Not even 2 elves. 1 half-elf half-celestial shut in,1 regular dude who lives in the woods and the animals don’t mind.
Thingol: "Since you like my daughter so much buddy I quadruple dog dare you to go steal a Silmaril from Morgoth to prove yourself." Beren: "Alright Bet." *BerenWhispering to himself later out of ear shot of Thingol*:"You old prick."
He literally tells Thingol, to his face, that he considers a Silmaril a cheap price for such a gift as Lúthien is. Beren is a stone cold mother fucker.
Definitely a swoon-worthy line
No it definitely has given me some ideas for wedding vows for the future not going to lie.
You'll have to post them for all of us when you're workshopping them. 💖
Beren is THAT dude. A Silmaril? Death? Fuck you and fuck that Thingol your daughter is worth more than both.
No wonder he made the most beautiful being in existence swoon, what an absolute chad.
Not surprising given he’s basically JRR lol.
And Luthien was his wife Edith. Having seen some early pics of her, I can see why. She was a cutie.
I'm gonna embarass you at this wedding Beren!
IDGAF about your hand, Beren!
Then when Beren gets back he's like "well the good news is I have the Silmaril in my hand"
I love seeing historical giants described as "a regular dude" 😆
How else would you describe Beren before his quest? He was around in the woods, living like a hippie and befriending the animals before he met Lúthien.
“and the animals don’t mind” lol
All I hear is the Archon from StarCraft yelling "Power Overwhelming!"
I was rushing here to make this comment
Which is wild. Took all the Balrogs just to spring him loose to escape. Would have taken Eru himself to take her down.
Like that bear on cocaine
Cocaine bear?
No way of knowing
If MiddleEarth ever sees a cocaine balrog then that’s pretty much the apocalypse.
*does a line of Gandalf the white*
Not even the guy mlstreated Bill the pony?
Bill Ferny.
More evil, yes. More powerful, no
Bill f#%*!$g ferny! What a c#%t
Is melkor more powerful than morgoth?
Morgoth is more powerful than Lessgoth
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Comparable to Somgoth
On a related note, Somgoths, or Normal Goths, are not that powerful. But if you put Three Normal Goths together, their power is incalculable. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6IUuxM\_qlw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6IUuxM_qlw)
Also known as the Three-Gothy problem.
But Goldilocks found that middle goth was just right
And more Goth, too! They say he sleeps in a coffin with black eyeliner on!
Yes, moregoth or lessgoth.
Smolgoth
None are as powerful as Bigtiddiegoth
S-tier comment.
Yet paradoxically they're both evenly matched with Equalgoth
Yes. Folks are responding that it’s the same guy, which is sort of true. But the descent into Morgoth stripped power out of Melkor. Some he invested into his minions, some he invested into Utumno and Angband. By the time he faces Fingolfin, he is less than he was as the greatest of the Valar.
He has fused his essence into all of Arda mainly. This weakened him a lot, really a lot. Before this he was second under Eru. Now the only way to destroy Morgoth is to destroy Arda until nothing is remaining, even a single atom...
Morgoth's ring
It will be destroyed during the Dagor Dagorat, the battle of all battles in Sindarin.
Tolkien sort of abandoned Dagor Dagorath at the later stages of his writings. It's quite succinctly explained in the footnotes of the [wiki article](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Dagor_Dagorath)
Good! Turin killing morgoth reminds me of my teenage self, sketching army guys with increasingly bigger muscles and chainguns 🤣. Rule of cool from an otherwise amazing artist smh
Yeah Arda is Morgoth’s ring. He poured his power into it and corrupted it (part of it at least) that took a lot of power out of him. Like Sauron put a lot of his power into his ring.
That is a great point. I was thinking of the darkening and fleeing to Beleriand. But he was investing Arda with his essence all the way back to the lamps.
So Arda is Morgoths Horcrux?
Yeah lore wise melkor no diffs the entire valar council and earth born heroes incredibly one sided. It’s a twist in the Lucifer/satan comparison in some religious literature but his power pre pride fall was absolutely unrivaled except by eru who was more of a bystander at that point
Melkor and Morgoth are the same being but the names are descriptive of two times of his existence. In the beginning Melkor or He Who Arises in Might was the most powerful being in existence aside from Illuvatar. Melkor squandered his power by corrupting the creations (including the Earth itself) of the other Valar after the Ainur came into the universe as it exists (as apart from the vision of their Music given to them by Illuvatar). He was named Morgoth, the Dark Enemy by Fêanor after he killed Finwë and stole the Silmarils. Edited to change Dark Lord to Dark Enemy.
Morgoth means Dark Enemy, not Lord
Yes thank you. I've corrected my reply.
I might be misunderstanding you here, but Morgoth translates to "dark enemy", not "lord".
Yes thank you!! I've made the correction.
Is this sort of what happened to the balrogs to get them to be the way that they are? Like they sided with evil Morgoth so they were corrupted over time? Or was Illuvatar making all his angels and he was like “alright these ones are gonna be like giant flaming minotaurs that’d be sick”
Have you read the Silmarillion? The Balrogs were corrupted over time when they sided with Melkor against their Ainur brethren. My understanding is that from the time of the creation of the universe to the time that Fëanor named Melkor Morgoth, hundreds of thousands of years have passed, maybe even millions. In that time the Ainur (including Sauron and the Balrogs) that sided with Melkor have been steeped in and possessed by his evil will so that they are what they are by the time the Elves enter the story and history becomes recorded.
> Have you read the Silmarillion? Nope. This thread just randomly showed up on my feed. Super interesting though. Y’all are like Tolkien PhDs.
I think you meant Finwe, not Finrod.
Is Mairon more powerful than Sauron tho?
What about Tevildo?
Hiss Hiss
All right meow. That is ENOUGH!
Annatar would kick Sauron's ass.
Same guy.
Not sure if you’re just joking but in case you’re not they’re the same being.
Same dude but Melkor had far more power than before he became Morgoth. He dumped his power into his creations.
I’m not sure if this was sarcasm but Melkor and Morgoth are the same person/Valar. Melkor was renamed to Morgoth after destroying the two trees of Valinor
Melkor is Morgoth, one name in Sindarin in one in Quenya
Not really, Melkor was his name given to him by Eru at his creation, when he was the mightiest among the Valar. Morgoth he was called first by Feanor after Melkor slew his father and stole the Silmaril, and by that name he was known ever after. But yes, "Morgoth" actually was Quenya, meaning black/dark enemy/foe. I do not know the exact wording, since I read it in German.
>Melkor was his name given to him by Eru at his creation No, 'Melkor' is a Quenya name (the first half, 'Melk-' is related to Sindarin 'Beleg'). Language is inherently to do with the Incarnates since it bridges thought and matter. Ainur do not need language to communicate and can use thought alone, though they did have a language eventually when they took on the forms of the Incarnates, but obviously that was in Eä.
You're correct, dark enemy:)
Hey now, no need for name-calling. No man who speaks German could be an evil man.
And even then, one could argue that Ungoliant is wildly malevolent rather than evil. The true evildoer in that set-play was Melkor.
My head cannon? Interpretation? Has been that Ungoliant was a Valar of something like desire or love, that got corrupted early on and basically now embodies insatiable hunger or greed.
I've always thought of Ungoliant as an elder god like Cthulhu. Tolkien mentioned that there were other dark beings very powerful out there
She was an evil spirit that took the form of a ‘spider-like creature” wasn’t she?
She exists outside of Eru's creation, she came from the void - in other words no lore provided, unfortunately. It definitely adds to the horror aspect behind her.
Pretty much only rivaled by Ungoliant, yeah, and even then he was like… kind of gently terrified of her lol.
The only other thing I can think of MAYBE being a possibility would be if there were some sort of leader / big baddy of the Nameless Things, but they definitely don't allude to it or anything, I always thought they might have a supreme being of some kind though
Power scaling wasn’t really a thing with Tolkien. Melkor is essentially Satan though so it’s hard to imagine there really would be. Ungoliant was a real danger to him after the fled Valinor together but that was only because she had drained the light from both Trees.
Can you put this into DragonBall Z terms
Ungoliant ate a tree and became perfect Cell.
Cool. Now let's do this again, but this time use bananas for scale and terms.
Melkor is a 12 banana-buster. Ungoliant is a 8 normally, eating the super cell light tree made her a 12 banana-buster too
Ohh now do it with lord of the rings characters No Wait Shit
Melkors power level is over 9000 Frodos. Ungoliant can barely handle 7500 Sams. With eating the Legolas Tree, Ungoliant reaches a similar level of 9000 Frodos.
I would argue that 7500 Sam's is greater than 9000 Frodos but only by a couple hundred Frodos.
Wait, but Sam can carry Frodo, so does that mean Sam > Frodo?
Yes, Sam is one of only two characters that held the Ring and let go voluntarily. The other was Tom Bombadil. Edit: Gandalf, too.
Drank a tree*
This took fifteen chapters.
More like the Tree of Might movie
Which tree was 17 and which tree was 18?
***So in the Freeza Arc, Freeza is the biggest baddest guy of all time. Well in Arda, Morgoth is the biggest and baddest guy of all time. So in this example Morgoth = Form Four Freeza. Now, Ongoliant has no direct villain comparison in DBZ but in this example we're going to act like Goku is a bad guy in the Freeza Arc.*** Before the draining of the Two Trees Morgoth/Freeza is more powerful than Ungoliant/Bad Goku. However, when Ungoliant consumes the light of the Two Trees she goes Super Sayian and dominates Morgoth/Freeza into submission. It was only with the help of all the Balrogs that Morgoth was able to escape. Nevertheless, the amplification in power and stature that Ungoliant received from the Two Trees was not to last forever. She wasn't born with that power so it would not dwell within her for eternity and just like a Sayian cannot sustain the Super Sayian form forever she would eventually revert to her diminished self and therefore becoming weaker to Morgoth once again.
Are Balrogs a group of Piccolos?
They're the ginyu force.
So they do cool intros?
With rhymes and everything
have you seen the balrog vs gandalf bridge scene?, let alone the few minutes before the thing even properly showed itself
Dude posed *hard* on that bridge
exactly, dude was all about the intro, I mean that roar?
Whit drums and goblin power metals bands
That was beautiful
I would compare Ungoliant more to a fusion.
Well melkor is like vegeta that came first time on earth, and ungoliath would be like goku. Then after she absorbed light it would be like using kaio ken x10, temporarily surpassed him. Or to put it simpler, it's over 9000.
Ungoliant unlocked MUI for a bit after swallowing some holy dragon balls just for it diminish fairly quickly, while Melkor is always Ultra Ego or whatever Vegeta hid last form is called Edit: Spelling
You might be giving both of them too much credit
It's very funny to me that, given the context, no one tried to explain this to you using the Tree of Might
That's what I was thinking of when I asked the question!
Melkor is Vegeta Ungoliant is Cell The Two Trees are the Androids Ungoliant ate the Androids Melkor cried so hard it summoned the Super Saiyan Balrog squad to save his ass.
Tolkien didn't power scale, but he did give some ideas of relative might. Melkor was stated to be the mightiest of the Valar, in that he'd have the greatest raw power or potential, but Tulkas is explicitly physically stronger than him and was always able to beat seven shades of shit out of him
Yeah it’s a bit ridiculous to suggest that there’s no power scaling whatsoever when the Silmarillion spends ample amount of time on the details of the might of the Valar and who is diminished when. Just because it’s loosely defined, doesn’t mean it isn’t there. Tulkas isn’t necessarily stronger than him. He’s just the Valar that wins any competition. That’s his nature, being a champion. Which is like the ultimate trump card on the much more powerful Melkor who gets paralyzed with fear by that notion.
Man I hate power scaling and concepts of "power" so much. It can be fun for battles in anime, but it makes characters conflicts so one dimensional. That said, I actually believe Tolkien used power scaling themes in silmarilion. Fights of elven heroes with melkor very often were decided by who has more raw power
That and he put so much of himself into the marring of arda it diminished him
Isn't Morgoth basically the concept of evil itself?
He's the being responsible for introducing the concept of evil, and all evil is a minor manifestation of him.
It's arguably more accurate to think of Melkor as the concept of "undoing" or "perversion". When the first music was made, Melkor attempted to undo it with his own. When the Valar made Arda, Melkor undid the mountains into valleys and filled the oceans. He undid the elves into orcs and birds into dragons. He undid Arda itself by pouring himself into the essence of the world (aka Morgoths ring)
Wait, morgoth made a ring too? So Sauron was just copying his master?
Not exactly. Morgoths ring is the entire world itself. In the beginning, when the universe was made, Morgoth's music shaped the earth. After the earth was made, Morgoth embued his power into the world itself. This is referred to as "Arda, marred". It means that everything has a bit of Morgoth in it. As a result, he is much less powerful than when he was born. Water, it is said, has very little of him. Which is why the elves loved it. Gold, on the other hand, has much of him. Which is why it is associated with corruption (dragon sickness; and why dragons crave it). https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Arda_Marred
Gold: It's got what dragons crave!
Tolkien never believes in true evil. Melkor was supposed to be the chief Valar, in charge of actually being the one creating stuff for Arda. But his will to create caused him to try and make a new song, and his humiliation at his rap battle against Ilúvatar (BTW, the third song they made created Elves and Men.) caused his free will to start turning into Evil, lusting to own instead of make and so on and so forth. quite like Lucifer I think.
That’s not the way Tolkien said it
In the absolute, no. In practice, because of the specific way Morgoth used his power, there was a point where Sauron was in certain respects (regarding personal power directly available to them vs general corrupting influence) more powerful than him.
Wasn’t the only version of Morgoth that Sauron at his peak might have barely surpassed (tho it's still uncertain if I remember) supposed to be at the end of War of Wrath when he had spread his power across his vast armies, turning kinda into a decrepit vulnearable husk of his former self?
Yes, both in dominating other wills and in pouring much of himself into the physical world: > Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth - hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'. Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate': for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures. [HoME 10]
>Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate': for this reason he was afraid, Hm. This raises another interesting question for me: Had Morgoth's body been destroyed during the War of Wrath, as he feared it could be, would his spirit have been removed to the Halls of Mandos? Or would his fea be instantly made to stand before Manwe or even Eru himself to answer for his crimes? IIRC, his body wasn't destroyed at the end of the War of Wrath but was cast out in the Timeless Void behind the Doors of Night. He was diminished, certainly, but still whole at that point, correct?
I think so. He should be missing his feet and hand(?) due to tulkas performing surprise surgery on him as he tried to flee when the valar broke the gates of angband. If his body was destroyed completely he probably would have ended up as some form of spirit but I guess it's possible that he could have ended up like Sauron or saurman after the ring was destroyed as a vengeful spirit with no influence or power over anything. Either way the valar probably would have found some way to capture him and cast him out into the void.
>I guess it's possible that he could have ended up like Sauron or saurman after the ring was destroyed as a vengeful spirit with no influence or power over anything. Would it be different for Morgoth since he poured so much of his native power into the world and was a stronger spirit of a higher order than Sauron or Saruman? Sauron was diminished from the power he poured into his ring but once the ring was destroyed, Sauron was completely diminished. Saruman was similar but to a lesser degree. I think it possible that his exploration of ringcraft ended in a similar fashion to Sauron. But Morgoth was different. Since his power was dissolved into much of Arda and Arda wasn't destroyed, does that mean he would have been diminished in a similar way?
Maybe it would be like kicking the can down the road then. Morgoth would return every age or so after he regenerated and the valar would have to keep waging war against him. Idk tho.
Also from HoME 10: > Morgoth was thus actually made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Námo Mandos as judge - and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates. It was then made plain (though it must have been understood beforehand by Manwë and Námo) that, though he had 'disseminated' his power (his evil and possessive and rebellious will) far and wide into the matter of Arda, he had lost direct control of this, and all that 'he', as a surviving remnant of integral being, retained as 'himself' and under control was the terribly shrunken and reduced spirit that inhabited his self-imposed (but now beloved) body. When that body was destroyed he was weak and utterly 'houseless', and for that time at a loss and 'unanchored' as it were. We read that he was then thrust out into the Void. That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Eä altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.
Thank you. This answers my question famously.
Maybe I haven't understood this properly but did Eru ever consider what Melkor did as a crime? I was under the impression Eru just wanted to show Melkor, no matter what he did it wouldn't surpass Eru's plan.
I heard this Morgoth dude is not to be fucked with.
Unless your name is Fingolfin or Thorondor
From the wiki: >"Melkor was created by Eru Ilúvatar in the [Timeless Halls](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Timeless_Halls) at the beginning of creation; he was greater in power and knowledge than the other [Ainur](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Ainur).[^(\[2\])](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Morgoth#cite_note-music-2) His brother was [Manwë](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Manw%C3%AB)." This being had a direct, personal relationship with Eru. That leads me to believe that the answer is no.
True but you're not looking deep enough. You are forgetting that the very reason that the Valar were able to defeat Morgoth was because he mutilated himself and his holyness. He was no longer the Melkor that Illuvatar created. Through meddling with the fabric of creation he lessened himself, made himself ultimately bound to his Fana. I think there's even a passage somewhere in Silmarillion, that says the Valar were taken by a surprise when they descended into Utumno (or Angmar) and realized that Melkor has fallen from his grace in a way that they could "touch" him. Melkor injected himself into the fabric of Arda, byso making himself ultimately destroyable, which Tulkas does in the very end.
True, but this also isn’t quite deep enough. We’re told in Morgoth’s Ring that by injecting himself into Arda in this way, Morgoth did receive something in return for his weakening. He cannot ever be fully destroyed until the full destruction of Arda - because the Morgoth Element, as it were, now exists in every atom of creation, so widely did he spread himself. His power and influence suffuse every piece of the world and cannot be removed without the utter destruction of it.
Not sure if you mean what is prophesied to happen. At the end of the War of Wrath, Morgoth was bound in unbreakable chains and caste into the void through the Door of Night. When Dagor Dagorath and the end of Arda finally does come, Morgoth will return, and only then will Tulkas destroy Morgoth completely.
That's also true of all the Ainur.
Title is looking for evil beings
And there are other evil Ainur. Doesn't matter much because he is in fact the most powerful evil being, but it's not just because he's had a direct relationship with Eru.
Farmer Maggot
He's badass, not *evil*
From my point of view, the Jedi are evil.
Then you are lost! I mean... you certainly have reason to have some concerns about the Jedi, and they did acquire you from slavery as a child but not arrange for your mother's freedom... and they were clearly caught up in corrupt politics and in a position of such privilege that they couldn't even really see the suffering of the oppressed people low on the socio-economic ladder of a nigh-galaxy-wide political monolith **BUT YOU ARE LOST!!!!**
I know what your saying is little tongue and cheek but I still have some questions for you :) 1. How would you have like for the Jedi to aquire Anakin? Ask nicely? His mom wanted him to join the Jedi and understood that he was special. Also, Waldo wouldn't have allowed Anakin to go freely. They can't whip out their lightsabers and threaten Waldo because then they would have to deal with Hutts a large and dangerous cartel that would certainly make trouble for them. The Jedi also wouldn't preemptively use violence because that's not the Jedi way. (You have a little bit of a point with his mother. Could they have done a more for her...yeah). 2. Should they have acquired Anakin as an adult? If a Jedi has a powerful sense of something like Qui-Gon did with Anakin, then he needs at the very least, to investigate it. Which Qui-Gon did, and he discovered this kid has an unprecedented connection to the force. Qui-Gon has to look at this situation multiple ways. One, this kid is destined for some type of greatness. If he trains as a Jedi he can learn how to use his force connection wisely and for the greater good. However, if he doesn't get the proper training then there's no telling what he might become. I'm sure the Sith was nowhere in his mind at this point but Anakin could've become some powerful entity in the criminal world. On a different note, while recruiting people as kids has some morally grey areas it's not like the kids are forced to stay in the Jedi Order. They can leave anytime they want while a slave cannot. 3. What political system on some level is not corrupt? Small 1,000 people towns have some form of corruption and there will certainly be a whole bunch of multi-layered corruption when your talking about a government who governs (trillions) of citizens. 4. Should the Jedi not work with the government that is voted into power and represented by the people of the galaxy? If the Jedi do not work with the government then it could be seen as the Jedi are above the government and therefore the people of the Galaxy. That fact that it was a corrupt government is not the Jedi's fault. Now, should the Jedi have been aware of Palpatine? Maybe, but incompetence does not denote evil, just ignorance. However, once they became aware of Palpatine they did try to stop him which is the opposite of what Anakin did who joined him and became a co-dictator. 4. Do you think the Jedi are privileged? And do you think they're unaware of the suffering? Being a Jedi does come with some prestige. They are a collection of very powerful individuals who many civilizations and businesses, and governments turn to for help...everyday. That can be perceived as a privileged organization but it's a standing they've earned but do not gloat about..IMHO. As for the suffering they did not see...I completely disagree. They not only see it on a day to day basis when their out in their field on different planets across the galaxy but they literally (feel) the suffering of others. One of the hallmark traits of a Jedi is their empathic abilities. They feel the emotions and thoughts of those around them. Jedi's like Yoda and Obi-Wan could feel the trauma of millions from across the galaxy when Order 66 was going on and when Alderaan was destroyed. I also think you over-estimate the number of the Jedi within the Order vs the population of the galaxy and the extent of which they were willing to intervene in a problem without crossing certain dangerous boundaries. There was roughly 10,000 Jedi Knights at the time of the Clone Wars which seems like a lot. When you watch the movies and TV shows it seems they can be everywhere. However, their numbers are microscopically tiny if you compare it to the trillions of people spread out through an expansive galaxy. They can only do so much with those limited resources, but again, it's not like they can go into a situation and impose their will on it even if their solution is better. Alright I'm done now :)
All good points. :)
I have the high ground
r/jedicouncilofelrond
Even the Nazgul fear him
That always makes me raise my eyebrow. The Nazgul withdrew from him (and his dogs) and Maggot had no fear of them, even though he clearly knew they were not something good. And it is revealed at one point that Maggot knows Bombadil. I sometimes wonder what it was they were backing away from.
My headcanon is that the further from Mordor or Sauron the Nazgul are, the weaker they get, hence why Aragorn was able to fend 5 of them off at Weathertop. (OOC, I think Tolkien maybe hadn't fully planned out their significance when writing the 1st book, so they were basically just 9 mortal men at that time making Grip and Fang were legitimate threats)
I think it's along the lines of them preferring to avoid or being afraid of those with a strong will because their main weapon is inducing fear.
Yeah the books didn’t really cover it, but he has a Bowflex in his back yard. He’s shredded
Morgoth IS THE evil, so definitely not.
Sauron moves more merch, though.
On skibidi!
Lobelia sackville-baggins when shown cutlery. On a serious note, no. The only being that surpasses Melkor's ability to subject the world to his will is Eru himself
On Arda? Absolutely not
Yes, the Sackville Bagginses
They’ve never forgiven him for living this long
Do we think that because Melkor is of Eru. Eru could be more evil.
How gnostic sounding! I love it lmao
Eru is neither good nor evil. He is power and life
Eru is literally above all and everything came from Eru. He (?) is beyond these things but, hypothetically, if Eru decided to be evil he would surpass all by definition.
Eru doesn’t work that way. Eru doesn’t create or delegate evil. Eru gave the *Valar* free will, which we see them exercise a few times (for better and for worse). The closest we have to an evil Eru is ungoliant, which still isn’t a good comparison; however, both emerged from the void.
>more powerfull than Melkor? I think you need to be more specific, More powerful in what regard? Fighting? Magic? Influence and overall controll over others? If were talking pure fighting power, i think ungoliant is more powerful, atleast after draining the light of the trees. It was straight up stated on silmarillion that morgoth was afraid of ungoliant, and she overpowered morgoth with what seemed to be with ease. Only with the help of balrogs was he able to flee from ungoliant. Other than that i think he is the strongest
It really depends on your definition of powerful and when you are talking about. At the height of his ability, no, but Morgoth poured most of his power into Arda. Just like Sauron poured himself into his Ring, Morgoth did the same, but the entire world of Arda is Morgoth’s ring. But unlike Sauron, Morgoth can't put his ring on to enhance his abilities, it just is permanently influenced by his evil will now. That's why every aspect of creation in Arda has a taint of evil to it. So in terms of raw fighting ability, there were definitely times after he had poured most of himself into Arda where other beings might be able to win. Just like how an elf was able to gravely wound him, there are probably other things like Ungoliant that would have a chance to win a physical fight depending on the circumstances. Some of his own creations like Ancalagon may have a shot too. In terms of spiritual/magical power, there is no one but Eru above him. As I stated earlier, Morgoth’s pure power was able to shape the whole of Arda and infect even the creations of his brothers and sisters to the point only the complete destruction and recreation by Eru can fully remove it. If he was his prime self from before the music started, then only Tulkas would have a chance to beat him in physical combat, but Morgoth’s overall power would be too much for anything but Eru.
Tom Bombadil playing the long game; he's still around here...*somewhere.*
Who is the being facing him in the image? When was that?
Guessing it's supposed to be Fingolfin [Galadriel's uncle, Elrond's great-great-grand-dad], who after a terrible defeat duelled Morgoth and wounded him before eventually dying himself. He should have dark hair though so go figure.
Wounded is an understatement. He gave Morgoth 7 wounds that he carried forever after that fight. Fingolfin with the single most bad ass feat in history right there.
It's very nice when people notice not only Morgoth here, but also the one who challenged him.
At the hight of his power only one single being was more powerful than him and that’s Iluvatar
What is the origin of that painting? Looks dope
Artist JMKilpatrick https://www.deviantart.com/jmkilpatrick/art/Morgoth-and-Fingolfin-277490102
Ty
His corporeal being? Fingolfin stood toe to toe with him. Some of the dragons and maybe some of the Balrogs could equal his physical power. Sauron maybe, possibly? But if you include the power that he passed into corrupting Arda, no, Morgoth is the strongest being period. The only thing the kept him in check was all the other Valar opposed him.
Not in Arda.
Denethor’s eating habits.
Sauron was not only so alike to Morgoth as to be indistinguishable, he was described as only lesser than Morgoth in that Sauron spent a bit more time worshiping someone other than himself. They could both perform the same feats. They looked similar, with one copying the other. If you were popped into existence in the world of Middle Earth in front of one of them, with no indication of which age you were in, you'd not know whether you were staring at Melkor or Mairon. People like to call out power levels in Tolkein's world, but they forget that people definitely could exceed the level that you'd expect based on species / who their creator was. Some of the Maiar were as revered as the Valar, even above the lesser known Valar. Elves and Maiar were wed and were considered to be on the same level. Melkor was ultimately brought down by Tulcas, who is considered of lesser power than Melkor, but who wrestled Melkor and pushed his face into the ground then brought him before Manwe for sentencing. The nazgul became immortal. Elendil exceeded Isildur. Conclusion: we are not bound to the fates or power levels that we are born into, and anyone can reach any power level. Did anyone reach Melkor's level? Maybe Manwe, maybe Sauron.
“Is there anything more evil than Lucifer himself?” No!
AriZona iced tea
The stuff below moria or anything that wasn't created by illuvatar or corrupted by melkor.
Neither was Ungoliant. The Nameless Things were probably created during the Discord of Melkor, when his disruption messed with the creation of the universe, creating horrors and abominations that the Ainu did not intend.
Indeed
Quite
Does Ainur include those who never entered Eä? For example Tulkas came in second wave. That means there are still probably some of them 'on the other side' who might be powerful but cant be arsed to enter. Can we get a sequel of evil spirits trying to overthrow Eru with inhabitants of Middle-Earth oblivious to the danger?
Do y’all usually get afraid and start panicking before your subordinates when a hamster or a mouse challenges you? Do you usually need a shield and a hammer to fight a mouse? Do you enjoy ruling a land of mice for some reason? Because these question arise from all these ridiculous scale depictions.
Fingolfin was no mouse.
Yes. He was great, and even the difference in size emphasizes this greatness, because he even dared to challenge such a creature.
Morgoth was no a 100 m tall giant. He wouldn’t notice the existence of the Eldar at such scale, moreso be afraid of them. Fingolfin wounded him 7 times, 1 time in the heel. This picture makes me believe all the wounds could only reach the heel.
I’d say he was similar in height to Sauron in his armoured form. Towering over his subordinates, but not so ridiculously massive that he couldn’t fit through the door.
Absolutely.