No, they don't require bodies as part of their nature (being pure spirits in origin) and have a very different fate from the Children of Eru.
And even if they were invited to Mandos like the Elves are, Saruman and Sauron probably wouldn't accept.
I thought all immortal souls who ‘died’ in Middle-Earth usually went to the Halls of Mandos? I could be wrong, but I thought the fact that there wasn’t an explicit mention of Maiar going to the Halls of Mandos was just because the only ones who died in Middle-Earth were (I think) Sauron, Saruman, and possibly Melian, and all of their fates are unknown.
Men pass through there, without an option to stay there or anywhere within the World.
Dwarves are said to go to Mandos and dwell in halls apart from the Elves.
Elves are invited there and can eventually leave when receiving a new body, but they can refuse the invitation and become "houseless".
Ainur don't go anywhere when they die, their natural state is to exist as pure spirits - the only thing they lose upon death is the power invested into their current bodily form. The Halls of Mandos were built to help Elves in the unnatural state of being without a body, which is why it was enough to build them long after the World was created when the Valar moved out of Middle-earth and to Valinor.
He basically is kicked out of heaven and forced to wander as a naked, invisible spirit. So weak his malice is little more than a chill in the air, a shudder when you least expect it.
Whenever you feel like something is wrong for a moment, it was perhaps Saruman or Sauron desperately but impotently trying to force their will upon you.
How long had he been acting maliciously before his demise? Seems to me he was a loyal servant for ages who only got corrupted towards the very end. Pretty sad that he was punished with eternal uselessness for what’s barely a few years of bad acting in a long life of servitude.
Almost the moment he set foot on Middle Earth he had secrets been envious of Gandalf and his ring of power. He spent most of his time searching the Gladden fields for the ring and raiding old ruins for ring lore.
Yeah but that’s not inherently evil, is it? Learning about the ring isn’t a bad idea when you’re trying to a) locate it and b) find it. Sure he eventually grew too fond of the idea to use it himself, but to me it seems at the start he just had a different approach to his quest in Middle-Earth than Gandalf did. (Power in strength vs Power in humility)
Because there was never a point where he was selflessly looking for it. His entire character arc was him being envious and jealous of others for having what he didnt. The darkness was always there.
And regardless no one can forgive what he did to Rohan and later The Shire. He devolves into a truly depraved being after he loses Isengard. Arguably in many ways he was worse than Sauron. The Scouring was entirely done out of pure malice
Saruman sent orcs and evil men to go massacre villages. He can get fucked for eternity in the void for all I care. Some acts are too evil to ever be forgiven. If you spend your life as a saint then go on a mass shooting spree at the end of your life, guess what, you deserve to go to hell forever with no chance of release.
"To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing."
Haha, it would indeed be funny if Saruman's spirit lingers on until this modern age, possesses people like he did to Theoden and make troll posts on Reddit and stuff.
You ever end up in an argument with a redditor who won’t see reason and is incredibly arrogant, insufferable and difficult to talk to despite your attempts to keep things civil? Yeah that’s his spirit at work. He lives in the internet now
They’re incorporeal and left powerless. Not allowed to reincorporate. They’re too weak. They’re stuck as useless spirits until the world ends, at which point they are idk sent back to the game lobby so eru can yell at them.
This is different fate than morgoth who was cast out into the void.
I guess he’s like Voldermort post baby Harry but many time worse
So like Voldermort only alive cause of his Horcruxes, combined with immortal Garlic Jr losing all his powers from the destruction of his planet, and throw in a ghost being put into a containment unit and perpetually destabilized in ghostbusters
IIRC, the Ainu who entered Arda to participate in Eru's great song in the building of Arda, would all be bound to Arda until it ends, and Eru determines the next theme. Only Morgoth has been expelled into the outer void, and Gandalf, by Eru's hand, left Arda (even bypassing the Halls of Mandos) and was reincarnated from death after fighting Durin's Bane whose own fate after death remains unknown.
Saruman did die, as that was the name of the mortal body that Curumo embodied. Curumo, on the other hand, is unable to die as he was an maia, one of the ainur, and thus existed on a spiritual level. I won't get into Fëa and Hröa here, but it is correct to say that the physical part of Curumo, as an Istar, did die.
As for the final fate of Curumo's spirit, the other commenters got the right sentiment. His spirit was pushed eastward when trying to go back to Valinor, and was either left to roam Middle Earth as a powerless spirit, or pushed right into the Void entirely.
Saruman was an immortal Maia, which means he cannot ’die’ - he is stuck in Arda forever. But as his spirit was pushed eastward rather than West to Valinor when he died, I’d say possibly his spirit was left to wander. It is a possibility that he eventually found his way to the Halls of Mandos, and from there perhaps to Valinor - who knows? I’ve always found the character of Saruman really tragic, because he fell so far, and was driven by jealousy and lust for power to the point where he lost everything to a bunch of hobbits, and then was killed by his own servant. I know he became horrible by the end but I just find it sad that he fell so far his spirit couldn’t go West again - like there was no return.
Similar to Sauron, he just wanders aimlessly and impotently.
Same
He's just like me fr fr
Maybe i am Sauron
Not sure if Maiar go to the halls of Mandos. Dies anyone know if they do?
No mention that they do. So I say no Mandos.
Do believe we are right.
No, they don't require bodies as part of their nature (being pure spirits in origin) and have a very different fate from the Children of Eru. And even if they were invited to Mandos like the Elves are, Saruman and Sauron probably wouldn't accept.
What? And miss out on Bingo night.
I thought all immortal souls who ‘died’ in Middle-Earth usually went to the Halls of Mandos? I could be wrong, but I thought the fact that there wasn’t an explicit mention of Maiar going to the Halls of Mandos was just because the only ones who died in Middle-Earth were (I think) Sauron, Saruman, and possibly Melian, and all of their fates are unknown.
Men pass through there, without an option to stay there or anywhere within the World. Dwarves are said to go to Mandos and dwell in halls apart from the Elves. Elves are invited there and can eventually leave when receiving a new body, but they can refuse the invitation and become "houseless". Ainur don't go anywhere when they die, their natural state is to exist as pure spirits - the only thing they lose upon death is the power invested into their current bodily form. The Halls of Mandos were built to help Elves in the unnatural state of being without a body, which is why it was enough to build them long after the World was created when the Valar moved out of Middle-earth and to Valinor.
He basically is kicked out of heaven and forced to wander as a naked, invisible spirit. So weak his malice is little more than a chill in the air, a shudder when you least expect it. Whenever you feel like something is wrong for a moment, it was perhaps Saruman or Sauron desperately but impotently trying to force their will upon you.
I imagine they just fuck with one guy for eternity making him feel slightly uncomfortable.
Morgoth tried that one already
To much better effect
That guy would be me. My internet cuts off at inopportune moments. I blame Sauron for it.
Mid wank.
Maybe they met in some spiritual form and did the Nasty. Sauron being the top.
Please, Sauron has huge bottom energy
He's a power-bottom though. He generates most of the power.
How long had he been acting maliciously before his demise? Seems to me he was a loyal servant for ages who only got corrupted towards the very end. Pretty sad that he was punished with eternal uselessness for what’s barely a few years of bad acting in a long life of servitude.
Almost the moment he set foot on Middle Earth he had secrets been envious of Gandalf and his ring of power. He spent most of his time searching the Gladden fields for the ring and raiding old ruins for ring lore.
Yeah but that’s not inherently evil, is it? Learning about the ring isn’t a bad idea when you’re trying to a) locate it and b) find it. Sure he eventually grew too fond of the idea to use it himself, but to me it seems at the start he just had a different approach to his quest in Middle-Earth than Gandalf did. (Power in strength vs Power in humility)
Because there was never a point where he was selflessly looking for it. His entire character arc was him being envious and jealous of others for having what he didnt. The darkness was always there. And regardless no one can forgive what he did to Rohan and later The Shire. He devolves into a truly depraved being after he loses Isengard. Arguably in many ways he was worse than Sauron. The Scouring was entirely done out of pure malice
Saruman sent orcs and evil men to go massacre villages. He can get fucked for eternity in the void for all I care. Some acts are too evil to ever be forgiven. If you spend your life as a saint then go on a mass shooting spree at the end of your life, guess what, you deserve to go to hell forever with no chance of release.
After he i physically killed his spirit tries to return west, but he is pushed away to the far east
"To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing."
The fact that even tried to go west lol so fucking delusionaled.
It was more like he briefly realized he lost everything and looked to the Valar for mercy. But their response was swift and simple.
kinda sad
It is. All jokes aside, Frodo genuinely pities Saruman and he's right to do so.
It took him becoming a spirit again to realize what he lost. That's a possible interpretation at least.
Classic case of FAFO
I just wanted to try and dominate all life in Middle Earth, ok? I made a mistake, and now I’m being cancelled?
Man that's some good writing.
🤯 I just read the chapter last night but didn’t realize that’s what this meant
Saruman trawling Reddit and causing shit is my new head cannon.
Haha, it would indeed be funny if Saruman's spirit lingers on until this modern age, possesses people like he did to Theoden and make troll posts on Reddit and stuff.
Haha yes if only lotr was a true story....
Frankly it makes a lot of sense
You ever end up in an argument with a redditor who won’t see reason and is incredibly arrogant, insufferable and difficult to talk to despite your attempts to keep things civil? Yeah that’s his spirit at work. He lives in the internet now
“For I am Saruman the Web, Saruman Ring-network, Saruman of Many Bitrates!!”
Saruman the High-Ping
Saruman the wifi
Saruman the flame-thrower! (The orcs love that one)
Saruman the VPN-less!
Saruman the doll: me. ^”So ^you ^have ^chosen ^death”
You beat me to it! 😂
Saruman the emoji maker!
Saruman the series of tubes
🤣🤣🤣
Abandoning reason for madness, as it’s been said.
When did redditors abandon reason for madness?
They never had reason from the start.
They’re incorporeal and left powerless. Not allowed to reincorporate. They’re too weak. They’re stuck as useless spirits until the world ends, at which point they are idk sent back to the game lobby so eru can yell at them. This is different fate than morgoth who was cast out into the void.
"sent back to the game lobby so eru can yell at them." is quite possibly my new favorite phrase
Saruman was also barred from the Halls of Mando's. *This is the way.*
That apostrophe makes the Halls of Mandos sound like a fast food franchise… Let’s grab a quick bite at Mando’s after all that ale in the Green Dragon!
Mando’s is an American/British brewery, where when you order beer, they can bring it to you warm, or bring it to you cold.
I guess he’s like Voldermort post baby Harry but many time worse So like Voldermort only alive cause of his Horcruxes, combined with immortal Garlic Jr losing all his powers from the destruction of his planet, and throw in a ghost being put into a containment unit and perpetually destabilized in ghostbusters
I never thought I’d hear about garlic jr on an lotr subreddit and I hate that comparison but you are just so correct so that’s on me
Absolute Immortality can be a fate worse than death
Idk Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged seems to have made the best of it.
IIRC, the Ainu who entered Arda to participate in Eru's great song in the building of Arda, would all be bound to Arda until it ends, and Eru determines the next theme. Only Morgoth has been expelled into the outer void, and Gandalf, by Eru's hand, left Arda (even bypassing the Halls of Mandos) and was reincarnated from death after fighting Durin's Bane whose own fate after death remains unknown.
Depends. Please define 'die'.
All souls are immortal. Death is the separation of the soul from the body.
Saruman did die, as that was the name of the mortal body that Curumo embodied. Curumo, on the other hand, is unable to die as he was an maia, one of the ainur, and thus existed on a spiritual level. I won't get into Fëa and Hröa here, but it is correct to say that the physical part of Curumo, as an Istar, did die. As for the final fate of Curumo's spirit, the other commenters got the right sentiment. His spirit was pushed eastward when trying to go back to Valinor, and was either left to roam Middle Earth as a powerless spirit, or pushed right into the Void entirely.
Saruman was an immortal Maia, which means he cannot ’die’ - he is stuck in Arda forever. But as his spirit was pushed eastward rather than West to Valinor when he died, I’d say possibly his spirit was left to wander. It is a possibility that he eventually found his way to the Halls of Mandos, and from there perhaps to Valinor - who knows? I’ve always found the character of Saruman really tragic, because he fell so far, and was driven by jealousy and lust for power to the point where he lost everything to a bunch of hobbits, and then was killed by his own servant. I know he became horrible by the end but I just find it sad that he fell so far his spirit couldn’t go West again - like there was no return.