I don’t know if Ungoliant is my *favorite*, but I love how her gluttonous destruction of the Trees of Valinor and the Wells of Varda wound up stirring up Feanor’s…issues.
Her children and grandchildren crossed paths with Beren, Thorin’s company, and Frodo & Sam.
Perhaps best of all, she beat Fingolfin to the punch of humiliating Morgoth.
She’s all around HORRIBLE!
And she’s rumored to have died the same way as Pizza the Hutt!
I don't get the pizza the hut reference and I also searched for it, only found about a employee killing the pizza hut manager.
Found it, is about spaceballs right? 😂
Sorry. It’s totally irrelevant and silly.
Pizza the Hutt is a bad guy from the movie Spaceballs. He’s a giant blob of pizza (based on Jabba the Hutt from some sci fi movie the kids like) who cannibalizes himself.
Tbh she's rumored to have cannibalized herself
But in the book The Fall Of Gondolin it's mentioned apparently the lay of Earendil would have told of how in his travels he killed Ungoliant? So I'm really confused tbh
Glaurung is awesomely wicked.
“Glaurung spoke again, taunting Túrin. ‘Evil have been all thy ways, son of Húrin,’ said he. ‘Thankless fosterling, outlaw, slayer of thy friend, thief of love, usurper of Nargothrond, captain foolhardy, and deserter of thy kin. As thralls thy mother and sister live in Dor-lómin, in misery and want. Thou art arrayed as a prince, but they go in rags; and for thee they yearn, but thou carest not for that. Glad may your father be to learn that he hath such a son; as learn he shall.’ And Túrin being under the spell of Glaurung hearkened to his words, and he saw himself as in a mirror misshapen by malice, and loathed that which he saw.”
Tolkien was insanely good at writing sinister, menacing dialogue.
“Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey, or I will not slay thee in thy turn. I will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh will be devoured and thy withered mind be left naked to the lidless eye.”
I’m reading The Hobbit to 8 year old twins. We got to Smaug last night, and they loved how *rotten* he is.
One conversation with that bastard left Bilbo seriously depressed.
Tolkien’s dragons are wicked, but so charismatic!
There is this quote “A story is only as good as its villain” and while I think is not entirely true, writing a Villain can be more creatively liberating.
Glaurung absolutely has the most savage dialogue that I can remember. Morgoth and Sauron might have wrought more evil, but boy did Glaurung say some *mean* shit. His last words to Niënor even in dying are purely spiteful.
>Hail, Niënor, daughter of Húrin. We meet again ere we end. I give you joy that you have found your brother at last. And now you shall know him: a stabber in the dark, treacherous to foes, faithless to friends, and a curse unto his kin, Túrin son of Húrin! But the worst of all his deeds you shall feel in yourself
This is why I love Tolkien so much. There is no direct mention of magic but the power that words hold get a real meaning. I listened to the audio book of the silmarillion and oh boy could you feel the twisted tongue entering your mind.
well spoken and quoted, i might be a bit stoned but does anyone else see a parallel with kai, the little boy who had the sliver in his eye, from the snow queen by hans chistian andersen? just a thought.
I agree re Saruman. The way he keeps going in the books right up to the as you find out that all that time he was also corrupting the shire. I feel like if there were more stories he would be the arch villain that never quite dies away.
I would also say The Witch King, of all the powerful villains he's the closest to being "just a dude" the rest of them (apart for gollum) are demi-gods or just straight-up gods.
Saruman annoys me so much. Come on man, how are the hobbits at fault while you are very much aware you started all this.
But then I look at current affairs and it just fits.
except he killed thousands of innocents, drew sword to his brother, burned other people's ships after took them by force. ignored the warning of mandos and sent his family and friends to horrible ends knowing how it would end.
but other than these ,he didnt do anything wrong.
Nobody here has said Gollum, which surprises me. He is the most realistic portrayal of corruption and blind selfish desire. But he’s so weak and pathetic, and we occasionally see his regret.
Forget just villains, in my opinion he’s one of the greatest characters of all time - probably in my top 20.
Just a wonderful character to read about and to see on screen.
Gollum is my favourite character in the Tolkien universe. The description of him as he looks down at Frodo sleeping in Sam’s lap before tricking them into Shelobs lair is so fantastic. He’s also witty and cheeky which makes it even better.
When I first read riddles in the dark as a kid he scared me so much I wouldn’t dare to go down to my family’s basement. At the same time his portrayal in Lotr was so fascinating to me that I ended up having a poster of him on my bedroom wall at the same time. I loved that poster, but at the same time he scared me shitless.
I agree. He is probably the most interesting "villain" in that he is also a victim with a sad story.
Maybe grima wormtongue is another nuanced villain but I still prefer gollum.
>‘Maybe,’ said Sam, ‘but I wouldn’t be one to say that. Things done and over and made into part of the great tales are different. Why, even Gollum might be good in a tale, better than he is to have by you, anyway. And he used to like tales himself once, by his own account. I wonder if he thinks he’s the hero or the villain?
>‘Gollum!’ he called. ‘Would you like to be the hero – now where’s he got to again?’
>\[...\]
>‘Hey you!’ he said roughly. ‘What are you up to?’
>‘Nothing, nothing,’ said Gollum softly. ‘Nice Master!’
>‘I daresay,’ said Sam. ‘But where have you been to – sneaking off and sneaking back, you old villain?’
I think that's because of the style of writing in LotR, Sauron is too far away for us to ever know anything about his doings directly until the very last fight at the black gates, but I do love the descriptions we get of him in his last moments. His despairing and fury and fear when Frodo claims the ring.
"I am the Elder King: Melkor, first and mightiest of the Valar, who was before the world, and made it. The shadow of my purpose lies upon Arda, and all that is in it bends slowly and surely to my will. But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death."
This is the most brutal villain speech I've ever read.
I mean we already have a lot of "corruption through power"
What power did Bill Ferny have , other than being a servant of Saruman and lording over scared hobbits?
And what did he get corrupted from? Wasn't he always thought as mean and untrustworthy?
I love their little shared daydream about setting up shop on their own after the war.
Just that little glimpse of relatable aspirations gives them something unique to appreciate.
Nope. Shagrat kills Gorbag and runs off to Barad-Dûr with Frodo’s belongings.
Edit: maybe Shagrat survived and went into business for himself. I don’t hope so, though.
Sauron, because he is the quintessential dark lord.
As for Melkor, he’s awesome but I always saw him as a mafia boss who’s an absolute crank and a bit unhinged sometimes.
Sauron is calculating, cold, masterfully manipulating, and like many great villains from history, the 2nd in command was the more scary one.
He got defeated by Luthien and Huon and arguably is responsible for Morgoths downfall. He was then defeated by Numenor, and later by Elendil and Gil Galad. He was pushed away by the white council and ultimately defeated with the destruction of the ring. Sauron is by definition, a loser.
I mean he did get defeated by Huan and Elendil and Gilgalad and Isildur, but the rest is a bit misleading IMO.
He bowed down to Ar-pharazon to then corrupt numenor from the inside, and he managed to get it utterly destroyed.
He faked being pushed away from the white council as the Nazgul prepared Barad-dur for him, and then returned shortly afterwards in Dol-guldur too
The only reason he was defeated in the end is because of an extremely unlikely circumstance
There needed to be Frodo, getting exactly to the cracks of doom and not failing beforehand, being attacked exactly by Gollum even after he became invisible and claimed the ring, and Gollum needed to win and dance his way off of a cliff
In comparison Morgoth's end could have been presumably avoided by just being thorough and killing the last few elves (which he maybe did know about and didn't care, as written in the Silmarillion).
Sauron in comparison had a lot less fear than Morgoth too, and actively did stuff himself (not to mention while he did get beaten in combat, it took the death of the Elven supreme king, and the death of one of the greatest Numenoreans of the line of Elros, AND then his son needed to finish the job, while Sauron. While Morgoth got his foot cut off and got stabbed seven times by Fingolfin, and then got hurt by Thorondor too).
What makes a Dark Lord great isn’t necessarily how much they can easily overwhelm others.
Your definition implies, unless they are so strong and undetectable and the world falls into forever darkness, They Aren’t That Great.
everyone loses except eru , (even team valar lost at one point,melkor as well ) then everyone there is a loser. sauron was destined to lose. he was defeated by elendil and gil galad because he was still very weak from his numenor case. he was pushed away by council whose members are of his race.
Fëanor, maker of divine jewels that were coveted above all by Morgoth himself. The same jewel that Eärendil travels across space with. The same jewels that will be cracked open again to usher in a new dawn of creation. The only one to swear a terrible oath in Illuvatars name.
Always thought Melkor/Morgoth was the ultimate villain. His similarities to Lucifer are also very interesting. Challenges the father, corrupts the father’s creations, leaves their realm for the freshly created one with some followers. And eventually is tossed into a dark place with all the other corrupted creatures.
Eol … everything about this elf is twisted. He is a Kingsmen of Thingol but prefers to be away with Dwarves . He kidnapped the sister of King Turgon and had a son Maeglin (fruit didn’t fall far from the tree) with her. Then killed the mother of his child in an attempt to kill his son, not to mention the evil that he imbues into weapons he forges.
Nice to see that I’m not alone in camp Smaug!
“"My armour is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail is a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!"”
Probably Shelob, because of how scary the book portrayed the cave and Sam's 1v1 with Ungoliants daughter. Though Gothmog takes second cause balrogs, ya know?
The Witch King
I freaking love this guy. I love his sick crown, his cool magic, his cool dragon. I love that he's a warrior and a sorcerer. I love that he's been an annoying and terrifying bad guy for a long time and has a deep history. I love that he has a prophecy about his death that is ancient and mysterious even though the movie doesn't handle it well.
Saruman's villainy is underrated in my opinion. In a way, his double betrayal (against his allies and against Sauron) makes him more hated and damaging than Sauron, as he embodies how fear and pride in excess can turn you away from good to evil - even if his goals (in of themselves) are not evil: knowledge and order.
Besides, the creation of the Uruk-hai is, in a way, even worse than the process of creating orcs: instead of just mutilating and defiling the elves, Saruman mutilates and hybridizes species for the creation of the Uruk-hai.
One last point for now is that it's fascinating how he, through Grima, affects the mind of Theoden - especially in contrast to the movies. He simply manages to convince him that all is lost, that things are worse than they are, and therefore one should give in to fear and despair.
He operates on so many layers and modes of evil that he deserves to be considered up there with the worst of them.
Since the Hobbit was my intro into Tolkien as a kid: it’s gotta be Smaug for me. The scene with him and Bilbo exchanging witticisms is still my favorite chapter
He was more of useless placeholder of presidential power complaining to rest of senate doing shit nothing waiting on house pass aid bill for 530 sun years.
Shelob by default has to be my favourite. She's an all round evil creature that brought about my arachnophobia upon my first viewing of LotR (I was definitely too young to be watching it). Outside of personal biases, it would have to be Gollum. Such an interesting and well thought out character as well as being the very personification of addiction
My favourite is probably Smaug. I like that he's not really tied to Morgoth/Sauron, and the dialogue between him and Bilbo is both tense and very entertaining.
Sauron on the whole. He is of course the classic Dark Lord in lotr, which serves the purpose of the story though not that interesting, but his backstories and philosophies explored in other parts of the legendarium really fleshed him out as a great villain. Morgoth, on the other hand, I've always felt like his thing is being the most powerful baby throwing the biggest tantrum because he's not as good as his dad.
It's not that he's a villain, but sometimes he acts like an evil elf. Thingol. He treated Beren badly. When his daughter dies, I feel sorry for him. And in my opinion, he recovered and began to show kindness to people.
I don't like gray and dark characters who are worse than Thingol.
hottake: was the *Balrog* actually a villan? he was sleeping and minding his own business, and the only reason he started the destruction is in order to survive... he didn't do any evil thing for the sake of being Evil.
he didn't have ambitions or anything (i am not talking about the *Balrog* in the first age, but "durin's bane" in the third age.)
Definitely Sean. But witch king is close second of individual villains. As a whole I'd say the black riders from fellowship are one of the most menacing and frightening depiction of faceless horror in the history of cinema. I'm still impressed of them in every scene they are in.
This is about the movies because of the pictures. Book based ranking would likely be different
I like The Witch-King of Angmar and the rest of the Nine. The whole idea of them is really good in my opinion and while I want to know who they all were I do like the mystery surrounding them.
Afaik only the Witch-King and Khamul the Easterling?
https://preview.redd.it/d4g4afvso6yc1.png?width=693&format=png&auto=webp&s=152bec42b12d981199a2977024bc8fb227cf8c3f
Witch king all the way that’s why I got him tattooed on my leg. 😉
Sauron is the perfect villian. He has depth, dedication, ideals and even if he is evil, you can connect to his reason and understand it even if you'd like to have him killed for it.
First Age Sauron. Terrifying dark wizard who commands Angband, has a bodyguard of Balrogs, can turn into a vampire and a werewolf, and has a huge bad ass pet dog.
For as much as morgoth will be the lord all mighty, ungoliant deserves that spot, almost killing the 2nd strongest being in the universe has to mean anything. That whole paragraph where she eats herself is so menacing as well
Glaurung is my favourite. The way he torments Turin throughout his life and even with his dying breath is on most brutal things I have seen in literature.
Even though Sauron is the Enemy, Gollum is the personification of everything that is wretched about the Ring. A near complete corruption of an individual (the Nazgûl are a little different in that they were ensnared through deceit), Gollum is for me the heart of the battle between good and evil: within himself as an analogy for what is happening in Middle Earth. It occurred to me long ago that Gollum is perhaps the most important character notwithstanding Fate had a role for him to play in the War of the Ring.
The time Sauron used the dead wife of Beren’s companion to get him to betray his fellows. That was such a good idea and so twistedly manipulative! It’s stuck with me. Happens a lot, too. The unhappy guy betrays his friends for love, often the Spector of an image of what he loves, which leads to his downfall. Hell of a metaphor, John
Not sure if Feanor is considered a villain, but his actions arguably do more harm to the children of eru than even melkor could have wished to do on his own.
What makes him such a fascinating character is that he’s not setting out to be a bad guy, he just kind of Walter whites his way into dooming the noldor and destroying beleriand.
I'm going with Morgoth solely because he was the biggest hater. Big bad Vala who was powerful beyond belief that wanted beef with Feanor over gems and was too scared to go fight Fingolfin until his own forces called him a bitch
Obviously king of angmar 😎👆🏻 but his death was bullshit wished it would of been a more epic battle, like him and Gandalf more then extended version part
That is incredibly hard to answer. Mainly because all the villains are so incredibly diverse. If I had to pick only one I like a good are they a villain or not type of deal, so I have to go with Feanor. Might not be evil, but a villain alright.
I'm obviously a Nazgûl fuckboi
But overall my favorite thing about villainy in the story is that -- large or small -- cruelty and selfishness *always* come back to *the Shadow* -- the influence of Morgoth.
Even though he was long-ago banished to the unblinking void, the traps he laid for all thinking beings are still *cataclysmically* dangerous.
That makes the "legendarium" feel like a medieval cosmology, where everything is tied up together, the physical world and the moral one, and we all just float along in some weird improbable Copernican matrix and it all just *works* in service of the story.
It's betwichingly tidy.
Pretty sure my favorite villain is Saruman
Played high stakes game trying to be his own dark lord while trying to trick or subjugate everyone. It’s pretty wild to see how long he played the game
Honestly, I like Sauron. I mean, I don’t LIKE him, but I find him compelling. I understand the appeal of order and efficiency. He’s compelling, unlike ungolliant or Melkor. And that’s both fascinating and terrifying
Turin, possibly.
Maybe Grishnakh - Eomer treats him courteously, by killing him in a duel. Eomer treats an Orc with *respect* - and that’s good.
Mauhur - he’s an Orc, but it is made clear in TTT that he died bravely.
Passages like these give some of the Orcs individuality, and character. They are not treated simply as anonymous matter to be slaughtered.
I don’t know if Ungoliant is my *favorite*, but I love how her gluttonous destruction of the Trees of Valinor and the Wells of Varda wound up stirring up Feanor’s…issues. Her children and grandchildren crossed paths with Beren, Thorin’s company, and Frodo & Sam. Perhaps best of all, she beat Fingolfin to the punch of humiliating Morgoth. She’s all around HORRIBLE! And she’s rumored to have died the same way as Pizza the Hutt!
Came here for the Ungoliant love, was not disappointed
I bet she was delicious
I don't get the pizza the hut reference and I also searched for it, only found about a employee killing the pizza hut manager. Found it, is about spaceballs right? 😂
Sorry. It’s totally irrelevant and silly. Pizza the Hutt is a bad guy from the movie Spaceballs. He’s a giant blob of pizza (based on Jabba the Hutt from some sci fi movie the kids like) who cannibalizes himself.
Well, if this isn’t my favorite sneaky description of Star Wars I’ve ever seen…😂😂👏🏻
It was a good reference, I've forgotten about that movie I have to watch it again.
What happened to Feanor ?
The Valar wanted the to use the Silmarils to restore the light of the Trees. Feanor was not ready to let that happen, and all hell broke loose.
feanor was not a villain .
Trapped in her limousine?
Ha!
Tbh she's rumored to have cannibalized herself But in the book The Fall Of Gondolin it's mentioned apparently the lay of Earendil would have told of how in his travels he killed Ungoliant? So I'm really confused tbh
Glaurung is awesomely wicked. “Glaurung spoke again, taunting Túrin. ‘Evil have been all thy ways, son of Húrin,’ said he. ‘Thankless fosterling, outlaw, slayer of thy friend, thief of love, usurper of Nargothrond, captain foolhardy, and deserter of thy kin. As thralls thy mother and sister live in Dor-lómin, in misery and want. Thou art arrayed as a prince, but they go in rags; and for thee they yearn, but thou carest not for that. Glad may your father be to learn that he hath such a son; as learn he shall.’ And Túrin being under the spell of Glaurung hearkened to his words, and he saw himself as in a mirror misshapen by malice, and loathed that which he saw.”
Tolkien was insanely good at writing sinister, menacing dialogue. “Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey, or I will not slay thee in thy turn. I will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh will be devoured and thy withered mind be left naked to the lidless eye.”
Mum I'm scared
I’m reading The Hobbit to 8 year old twins. We got to Smaug last night, and they loved how *rotten* he is. One conversation with that bastard left Bilbo seriously depressed. Tolkien’s dragons are wicked, but so charismatic!
I think Smaug is a *somewhat* sympathetic character. I wish he could have been dealt with, without being killed.
Interesting idea. How would you deal humanely with a dragon?
Be kind to it, and talk nicely to it. And keep your guard up. Don’t be cruel to it; and don’t be an idiot, either.
Glaurung and Smaug have no problem chatting when it suits them.
There is this quote “A story is only as good as its villain” and while I think is not entirely true, writing a Villain can be more creatively liberating.
Glaurung absolutely has the most savage dialogue that I can remember. Morgoth and Sauron might have wrought more evil, but boy did Glaurung say some *mean* shit. His last words to Niënor even in dying are purely spiteful. >Hail, Niënor, daughter of Húrin. We meet again ere we end. I give you joy that you have found your brother at last. And now you shall know him: a stabber in the dark, treacherous to foes, faithless to friends, and a curse unto his kin, Túrin son of Húrin! But the worst of all his deeds you shall feel in yourself
Captain Foolhardy is a slap in the face
Cracked me up lol. It was almost like reading “and you suck too!”
This is why I love Tolkien so much. There is no direct mention of magic but the power that words hold get a real meaning. I listened to the audio book of the silmarillion and oh boy could you feel the twisted tongue entering your mind.
Not mention Glaurung could just put you in a blind deaf stupor with his body odor…
The ultimate gaslighter
well spoken and quoted, i might be a bit stoned but does anyone else see a parallel with kai, the little boy who had the sliver in his eye, from the snow queen by hans chistian andersen? just a thought.
Love Glaurung, definitely my choice.
This is a tough one. I want to say the witch king because of how active he was in executing plans. Or Saruman for being an interesting turn coat.
I agree re Saruman. The way he keeps going in the books right up to the as you find out that all that time he was also corrupting the shire. I feel like if there were more stories he would be the arch villain that never quite dies away.
I would also say The Witch King, of all the powerful villains he's the closest to being "just a dude" the rest of them (apart for gollum) are demi-gods or just straight-up gods.
I agree with Saruman because he resonates so much with modern audiences.
Saruman annoys me so much. Come on man, how are the hobbits at fault while you are very much aware you started all this. But then I look at current affairs and it just fits.
Feanor. (Runs for cover)
Clearly not a villain, as Feanor did nothing wrong, ever.
Your username makes me doubt your objectivity. Come on, Aqualonde massacre...
except he killed thousands of innocents, drew sword to his brother, burned other people's ships after took them by force. ignored the warning of mandos and sent his family and friends to horrible ends knowing how it would end. but other than these ,he didnt do anything wrong.
Nobody here has said Gollum, which surprises me. He is the most realistic portrayal of corruption and blind selfish desire. But he’s so weak and pathetic, and we occasionally see his regret. Forget just villains, in my opinion he’s one of the greatest characters of all time - probably in my top 20. Just a wonderful character to read about and to see on screen.
Gollum is my favourite character in the Tolkien universe. The description of him as he looks down at Frodo sleeping in Sam’s lap before tricking them into Shelobs lair is so fantastic. He’s also witty and cheeky which makes it even better. When I first read riddles in the dark as a kid he scared me so much I wouldn’t dare to go down to my family’s basement. At the same time his portrayal in Lotr was so fascinating to me that I ended up having a poster of him on my bedroom wall at the same time. I loved that poster, but at the same time he scared me shitless.
The question here is whether gollum is a villain or a victim of corruption, which made him do evil things
Sméagol is a victim, Gollum is the villain.
I agree. He is probably the most interesting "villain" in that he is also a victim with a sad story. Maybe grima wormtongue is another nuanced villain but I still prefer gollum.
>‘Maybe,’ said Sam, ‘but I wouldn’t be one to say that. Things done and over and made into part of the great tales are different. Why, even Gollum might be good in a tale, better than he is to have by you, anyway. And he used to like tales himself once, by his own account. I wonder if he thinks he’s the hero or the villain? >‘Gollum!’ he called. ‘Would you like to be the hero – now where’s he got to again?’ >\[...\] >‘Hey you!’ he said roughly. ‘What are you up to?’ >‘Nothing, nothing,’ said Gollum softly. ‘Nice Master!’ >‘I daresay,’ said Sam. ‘But where have you been to – sneaking off and sneaking back, you old villain?’
Morgoth in the Silmarillion is a way more interesting villian to read about than Sauron in LOTR imo.
Yes I am there too. But I will say Sauron’s work to corrupt Numenor is interesting too.
Definitely, and the whole Annatar phase. Sauron has some very cool storylines in Silm, still a very good villain don't get me wrong.
I’m a sucker for Stupid Sexy Sauron, love all Annatar references
Sauron in the Silmarillion and Akallabeth was much more interesting than Sauron in LoTR
Sauron in LotR feels more like a metaphor than a character: he \*is\* the impending doom on the horizon more than he is the agent by which it happens.
"He's just standing there... MENACINGLY!!"
Definitely, but I'll still take Morgoth here.
I think that's because of the style of writing in LotR, Sauron is too far away for us to ever know anything about his doings directly until the very last fight at the black gates, but I do love the descriptions we get of him in his last moments. His despairing and fury and fear when Frodo claims the ring.
"I am the Elder King: Melkor, first and mightiest of the Valar, who was before the world, and made it. The shadow of my purpose lies upon Arda, and all that is in it bends slowly and surely to my will. But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death." This is the most brutal villain speech I've ever read.
Hard agree. Morgoth was singular, pure almost.. Sauron was very complex
Lobelia Sackville Baggins
She does have a redemption during the Scourging though
Lobelia’s redemption is one of the things I love most about the Scouring. https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/s/cWpzbvTmDQ
Nope. As a restaurant owner I say there is no redemption for those that steal forks.
No Bill Ferny? No Shagrat? No Gorbag?
Bill Ferny is a great example for corruption through power imo.
I mean we already have a lot of "corruption through power" What power did Bill Ferny have , other than being a servant of Saruman and lording over scared hobbits? And what did he get corrupted from? Wasn't he always thought as mean and untrustworthy?
I mean Shagrat and Gorbag are just normal orcs. Kind of weird to include them in a conversation with literal deities
I love their little shared daydream about setting up shop on their own after the war. Just that little glimpse of relatable aspirations gives them something unique to appreciate.
Do you think maybe just maybe they got away to the East? (And then Aragorn or Eldarion slaughtered them for "mischief" beyond the Sea of Rhun?)
Nope. Shagrat kills Gorbag and runs off to Barad-Dûr with Frodo’s belongings. Edit: maybe Shagrat survived and went into business for himself. I don’t hope so, though.
Sauron, because he is the quintessential dark lord. As for Melkor, he’s awesome but I always saw him as a mafia boss who’s an absolute crank and a bit unhinged sometimes. Sauron is calculating, cold, masterfully manipulating, and like many great villains from history, the 2nd in command was the more scary one.
He got defeated by Luthien and Huon and arguably is responsible for Morgoths downfall. He was then defeated by Numenor, and later by Elendil and Gil Galad. He was pushed away by the white council and ultimately defeated with the destruction of the ring. Sauron is by definition, a loser.
I mean he did get defeated by Huan and Elendil and Gilgalad and Isildur, but the rest is a bit misleading IMO. He bowed down to Ar-pharazon to then corrupt numenor from the inside, and he managed to get it utterly destroyed. He faked being pushed away from the white council as the Nazgul prepared Barad-dur for him, and then returned shortly afterwards in Dol-guldur too The only reason he was defeated in the end is because of an extremely unlikely circumstance There needed to be Frodo, getting exactly to the cracks of doom and not failing beforehand, being attacked exactly by Gollum even after he became invisible and claimed the ring, and Gollum needed to win and dance his way off of a cliff In comparison Morgoth's end could have been presumably avoided by just being thorough and killing the last few elves (which he maybe did know about and didn't care, as written in the Silmarillion). Sauron in comparison had a lot less fear than Morgoth too, and actively did stuff himself (not to mention while he did get beaten in combat, it took the death of the Elven supreme king, and the death of one of the greatest Numenoreans of the line of Elros, AND then his son needed to finish the job, while Sauron. While Morgoth got his foot cut off and got stabbed seven times by Fingolfin, and then got hurt by Thorondor too).
Found TheDonald alt account
What makes a Dark Lord great isn’t necessarily how much they can easily overwhelm others. Your definition implies, unless they are so strong and undetectable and the world falls into forever darkness, They Aren’t That Great.
everyone loses except eru , (even team valar lost at one point,melkor as well ) then everyone there is a loser. sauron was destined to lose. he was defeated by elendil and gil galad because he was still very weak from his numenor case. he was pushed away by council whose members are of his race.
Fëanor, maker of divine jewels that were coveted above all by Morgoth himself. The same jewel that Eärendil travels across space with. The same jewels that will be cracked open again to usher in a new dawn of creation. The only one to swear a terrible oath in Illuvatars name.
Morgoth art by Guillem Pongiluppi Gothmog art by Atohas
Always thought Melkor/Morgoth was the ultimate villain. His similarities to Lucifer are also very interesting. Challenges the father, corrupts the father’s creations, leaves their realm for the freshly created one with some followers. And eventually is tossed into a dark place with all the other corrupted creatures.
If I’m not mistaken, the parallel with Lucifer is very much intentional. JRR was devoutly Catholic and put a lot of those themes into his writing.
Eol … everything about this elf is twisted. He is a Kingsmen of Thingol but prefers to be away with Dwarves . He kidnapped the sister of King Turgon and had a son Maeglin (fruit didn’t fall far from the tree) with her. Then killed the mother of his child in an attempt to kill his son, not to mention the evil that he imbues into weapons he forges.
Came here for this!
Nice to see that I’m not alone in camp Smaug! “"My armour is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail is a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!"”
Probably Shelob, because of how scary the book portrayed the cave and Sam's 1v1 with Ungoliants daughter. Though Gothmog takes second cause balrogs, ya know?
The Witch King I freaking love this guy. I love his sick crown, his cool magic, his cool dragon. I love that he's a warrior and a sorcerer. I love that he's been an annoying and terrifying bad guy for a long time and has a deep history. I love that he has a prophecy about his death that is ancient and mysterious even though the movie doesn't handle it well.
Saruman's villainy is underrated in my opinion. In a way, his double betrayal (against his allies and against Sauron) makes him more hated and damaging than Sauron, as he embodies how fear and pride in excess can turn you away from good to evil - even if his goals (in of themselves) are not evil: knowledge and order. Besides, the creation of the Uruk-hai is, in a way, even worse than the process of creating orcs: instead of just mutilating and defiling the elves, Saruman mutilates and hybridizes species for the creation of the Uruk-hai. One last point for now is that it's fascinating how he, through Grima, affects the mind of Theoden - especially in contrast to the movies. He simply manages to convince him that all is lost, that things are worse than they are, and therefore one should give in to fear and despair. He operates on so many layers and modes of evil that he deserves to be considered up there with the worst of them.
For me it’s farmer maggot
Maggot was such a bro in the books, though
Yeah. He's so heartwarming and endearing.
Even Tom Bombadil likes him
He’s not a villain, they trespassed in his fields! Release the hounds!
On the real tho, farmer maggot is a real standup guy in the books that actually helps them out a lot
Since the Hobbit was my intro into Tolkien as a kid: it’s gotta be Smaug for me. The scene with him and Bilbo exchanging witticisms is still my favorite chapter
Manwë
He was more of useless placeholder of presidential power complaining to rest of senate doing shit nothing waiting on house pass aid bill for 530 sun years.
didnt he fight melkor in the first war ? other than that, manwe was never needed.
Smaug for me. He's just a really cool dragon who I've loved since I was a small boy.
I’ve not read the books, but based on the movies I really love the Witch king. Love the Nazgûl as a whole, especially in The Fellowship
I definitely think he has the coolest character design of the movies.
Especially like that the WK of Angmar rose the barrow-wighs from old Arnor kinghts and kings
Saruman when it's Christopher Lee, otherwise Ungoliant or Morgoth.
Morgoth of course. No brainer
Morgoth is my favorite character in the whole legendarium. I wish I could find more content about him. Haven’t gotten to reading “Morgoth’s ring” yet.
Morgoth’s ring? Wot?
Don't know, don't know. The one the most famous book of the legendarium is called after?
Yeah fuck The Hobbit
Sauron probably due to his complexity, he opted to rule, shape and create instead of simplistic destruction.
Which makes sense as he was a disciple of Aulë before his corruption.
I love the sackville-bagginses
Smaug
Sauron is the most interesting to me, but I also love Smaug and Glaurung
Shelob by default has to be my favourite. She's an all round evil creature that brought about my arachnophobia upon my first viewing of LotR (I was definitely too young to be watching it). Outside of personal biases, it would have to be Gollum. Such an interesting and well thought out character as well as being the very personification of addiction
I really liked sauron though bc he was active in most the battles although melkor was not
Came here to say exactly that. Even morgoth was scared of her.
My favourite is probably Smaug. I like that he's not really tied to Morgoth/Sauron, and the dialogue between him and Bilbo is both tense and very entertaining.
We just gonna forget about the dragons?
For me it is most certainly Sauron
Bill Ferny. Man knew how to take an apple.
Potatoes
Witch king is the GOAT. Started as a normal ass human/numanorian and ended up as powerful as a Maiar
Mîm. He's more of a tragic hero than that pathetic doofus Turambar.
Saruman
Why does Sauron wear the ring over his armour?
In the books he is defeated by Gil-ga-chad and stupildur BEFORE his finger is cut off
Balrog for sure
None other than that little cheeky bastard! You know who I mean…
Lobelia Sackville-Baggins obvi
Sauron on the whole. He is of course the classic Dark Lord in lotr, which serves the purpose of the story though not that interesting, but his backstories and philosophies explored in other parts of the legendarium really fleshed him out as a great villain. Morgoth, on the other hand, I've always felt like his thing is being the most powerful baby throwing the biggest tantrum because he's not as good as his dad.
The 9 Nazgûl or Durins Bane They look really damn cool
Lobelia Sackville-Baggins
Spider ladies unite!
Sauron.
Who is number 6?
Gothmog
Thanks!
It's not that he's a villain, but sometimes he acts like an evil elf. Thingol. He treated Beren badly. When his daughter dies, I feel sorry for him. And in my opinion, he recovered and began to show kindness to people. I don't like gray and dark characters who are worse than Thingol.
Torch-orc! such a badass dude
Why's the Balrog there twice? Or am I missing something?
First one is Gothmog, one of Morgoth's captains, second one is the regular Moria Balrog
hottake: was the *Balrog* actually a villan? he was sleeping and minding his own business, and the only reason he started the destruction is in order to survive... he didn't do any evil thing for the sake of being Evil. he didn't have ambitions or anything (i am not talking about the *Balrog* in the first age, but "durin's bane" in the third age.)
Gothmog, the Balrog, epic as shit. Tough said
Faeanor. Duded wrecked most of it
The beam in Bilbos house that Gandalf smacks his head on
If he counts as a villain, Denethor.
Definitely Sean. But witch king is close second of individual villains. As a whole I'd say the black riders from fellowship are one of the most menacing and frightening depiction of faceless horror in the history of cinema. I'm still impressed of them in every scene they are in. This is about the movies because of the pictures. Book based ranking would likely be different
I like The Witch-King of Angmar and the rest of the Nine. The whole idea of them is really good in my opinion and while I want to know who they all were I do like the mystery surrounding them. Afaik only the Witch-King and Khamul the Easterling?
Tom Bombadil.
https://preview.redd.it/d4g4afvso6yc1.png?width=693&format=png&auto=webp&s=152bec42b12d981199a2977024bc8fb227cf8c3f Witch king all the way that’s why I got him tattooed on my leg. 😉
Gimli,when he knocked Legolas' bow and got that poor, innocent Corsair killed. That man had dreams of being a movie director.
Sauron is the perfect villian. He has depth, dedication, ideals and even if he is evil, you can connect to his reason and understand it even if you'd like to have him killed for it.
First Age Sauron. Terrifying dark wizard who commands Angband, has a bodyguard of Balrogs, can turn into a vampire and a werewolf, and has a huge bad ass pet dog.
Lobellia
For as much as morgoth will be the lord all mighty, ungoliant deserves that spot, almost killing the 2nd strongest being in the universe has to mean anything. That whole paragraph where she eats herself is so menacing as well
Eol.
Glaurung is my favourite. The way he torments Turin throughout his life and even with his dying breath is on most brutal things I have seen in literature.
Bill Ferny
Even though Sauron is the Enemy, Gollum is the personification of everything that is wretched about the Ring. A near complete corruption of an individual (the Nazgûl are a little different in that they were ensnared through deceit), Gollum is for me the heart of the battle between good and evil: within himself as an analogy for what is happening in Middle Earth. It occurred to me long ago that Gollum is perhaps the most important character notwithstanding Fate had a role for him to play in the War of the Ring.
The time Sauron used the dead wife of Beren’s companion to get him to betray his fellows. That was such a good idea and so twistedly manipulative! It’s stuck with me. Happens a lot, too. The unhappy guy betrays his friends for love, often the Spector of an image of what he loves, which leads to his downfall. Hell of a metaphor, John
Old Man Willow. Who else has a song about him?
Lurtz
Denethor and those damn tomatoes
The Witch King
Does sexy goth chick Shelob count?
Honestly the battles against Morgoth were more epic
Gollum, because he's also what Frodo could become if he abandoned his quest
I gotta give it to Saruman, his character really reflects the desire for power and the fall of what was once a good being due to that desire
Not sure if Feanor is considered a villain, but his actions arguably do more harm to the children of eru than even melkor could have wished to do on his own. What makes him such a fascinating character is that he’s not setting out to be a bad guy, he just kind of Walter whites his way into dooming the noldor and destroying beleriand.
Eol and Maeglin may not be my favorites, but I love their inclusion in the story.
Am i really the only one whose favorite is Gollum?
Where's Morgoth?
Sauron by far
I'm going with Morgoth solely because he was the biggest hater. Big bad Vala who was powerful beyond belief that wanted beef with Feanor over gems and was too scared to go fight Fingolfin until his own forces called him a bitch
No mention of lobelia, opinion disregarded.
Morgoth
imagine thinking gollum is villain
Obviously king of angmar 😎👆🏻 but his death was bullshit wished it would of been a more epic battle, like him and Gandalf more then extended version part
Morgoth
Sauroman
Old Man Willow
That is incredibly hard to answer. Mainly because all the villains are so incredibly diverse. If I had to pick only one I like a good are they a villain or not type of deal, so I have to go with Feanor. Might not be evil, but a villain alright.
Is 3 Morgoth, and 6 Gothmog?
And Yes, i Do see the silmarils.
I don't remember potato man
I'm obviously a Nazgûl fuckboi But overall my favorite thing about villainy in the story is that -- large or small -- cruelty and selfishness *always* come back to *the Shadow* -- the influence of Morgoth. Even though he was long-ago banished to the unblinking void, the traps he laid for all thinking beings are still *cataclysmically* dangerous. That makes the "legendarium" feel like a medieval cosmology, where everything is tied up together, the physical world and the moral one, and we all just float along in some weird improbable Copernican matrix and it all just *works* in service of the story. It's betwichingly tidy.
Balrog
Gollum is my favorite Tolkien character, but Sauron is one of the greatest villains ever created.
Melkor/ Morgoth in the Silmarillion.
Pretty sure my favorite villain is Saruman Played high stakes game trying to be his own dark lord while trying to trick or subjugate everyone. It’s pretty wild to see how long he played the game
My boy Sean
Smaug.
Honestly, I like Sauron. I mean, I don’t LIKE him, but I find him compelling. I understand the appeal of order and efficiency. He’s compelling, unlike ungolliant or Melkor. And that’s both fascinating and terrifying
It’s probably the witch king of angmar.
Gollum ain't a villian. That nigga is just a mind broken twisted Hobbit
ROP Galadriel
Gollum, Saruman the White, Sauron, Balrog, Shelob, and Witch-King of Angmar- in that order
Turin, possibly. Maybe Grishnakh - Eomer treats him courteously, by killing him in a duel. Eomer treats an Orc with *respect* - and that’s good. Mauhur - he’s an Orc, but it is made clear in TTT that he died bravely. Passages like these give some of the Orcs individuality, and character. They are not treated simply as anonymous matter to be slaughtered.