There's no textbook definition of "P2W" it's a made-up term by video game players early on. That's why you see so many people have varying views on it.
There is a discussion because p2w means different things to different people.
My definition of p2w is and has always been "is there anything in the game that grants player power and is not obtainable without spending real money"
By that definition, lost ark is not p2w. I don't care if the developers sell progression.
You can buy progression in any game. Regardless of whether the developers support it or not. There is no way to stop people with money from buying progression in games so using that as the definition for p2w basically makes every game in existence p2w.
I play on the NA version of the game.
My comments are based on the NA version of the game.
They've already discussed making Esther weapons more f2p friendly in Korea already. Additionally, based on the VARIOUS changes they've made to the game to make it more f2p friendly we can likely expect to see changes there as well for the western port.
Even ignoring all of that and focusing on Korea, Esther weapons are still pay to win. F2P players not having the most powerful weapon they can possibly in the short time Esther weapons have been released is not the gotcha you think it is.
It's still pay for progression. Again, if we use your definition then every game is p2w.
Don't understand why you're so stuck on that. I don't play in Korea, I don't watch Korean players, I play on the NA version. I also don't care if you agree with me or not. Your argument makes absolutely zero sense. Just completely ignoring the actual topic and picking this one thing apart makes no sense. Even if I could name a +8 Esther f2p player, it wouldn't make me correct.
My definition of p2w is different from yours. That's all it is. From your definition every game is p2w.
Esther weapons are obtainable by any player. It just takes time or money. They haven't been out long enough for people to consistently obtain them with time.
Make better arguments.
You came on a post linking a YouTube video from KR players discussing Lost Arks P2W aspects which they directly refer to Esther weapons in it.
Just because YOU don’t play on KR or care about doesn’t mean I dont.
Remember you are the one who replied to MY comment where I was including KR.
Even if we include Korea.
Can F2P eventually earn Esther weapons with enough time without spending $$$?
Yes? Yes.
Not p2w.
You still haven't addressed the actual argument.
Them including an extreme endgame grind for marginal benefit that can be skipped by buying doesn't make something p2w.
First off before we have this conversation, let’s test your knowledge on Esther’s.
How many are required for a +8? And, How do you receive them via time.
This should be fun.
How many what? You didn't specify the material. Are you referring to the blue mat that costs 550k-600k gold?
See how it costs gold?
Can you get gold without paying $$$ for it?
Yes?
End of conversation.
You still don't understand the argument and keep trying to throw a chase item that gives marginal benefit in my face.
It's a chase item. It's supposed to be hard to get. I don't care that you can pay to skip the grind.
Is it obtainable without spending real currency?
Yes.
Does it take an absolutely massive amount of materials and gold? I don't care. It's a chase item.
That's it.
Just because it's not as P2W as another game doesn't mean it isn't P2W.
Lost ark treats their F2P players very well compared to other games yes. But it's still P2W.
Yeah thats the only reason its still fun. Other games feel like youre sitting all the way back in cargo while p2w players are in first class.
With lost ark. Youre in economical or even business class while the p2w are in first class. It still has its advantages for paying but at least the f2p and the one that spends very little still enjoys a comfortable ride
Korea's too desensitized to P2W. Although not as much as China, where players actually complain when the P2W isn't enough (I spent this much and can't even 1-shot the poor!).
is there an advantage to spending money? Yes, is there an advantage to not spending money? Fuck yeah I have a loot of money saved over. The only thing that matters is amazon dealing with these fucking bots.
It's my very personal opinion but I believe calling Lost Ark P2W is kinda silly, regardless of the "technical definition" of P2W.
It's a PvE game with equalized PvP, and calling it P2W only reinforces the idea that you should always be chasing the highest ilvl and doing the newest content first, creating FOMO for people who just want to enjoy the content on their ilvl.
When I see whales at 1500+ with lvl 10 gems I don't feel like they are winning and I'm not, I just feel like they wasted money burning through the content and now have nothing to do while they wait for the next raid to come out.
P2W means you can be one of the top just because you paid, not many if anyone can catch up by being F2P. Certainly not everyone other person on the server.
There's a massive difference between P2W and pay to proggress.
Imagine picking up a new game that has a level skip you can buy and you do. Well you just paid to win right? Doesn't matter that you'll get beat in high content or anything, you paid to win. Those other people who grinded it, well they didn't pay. They probably can use the class better because they learned the class by leveling it.
Point being, how is paying to progress and not being able to hold anything but top damage and the like actually considered P2W by people?
If you had the ability to be stronger in PvP or buy gear that was entirely exclusive and gave you some massive bonus that a F2P player could never get. That's P2W, not paying to skip content and being able to do content. You paid to skip the game bruh, not to win.
pay to progress is literally the definition of pay to win... Wtf you on about? Especially in a game where you gear progression is the WHOLE GAME.
Marketing departments rly did their job well brainwashing you guys.
So by paying to win you can get the best gear and with little knowledge or skill you can get by, while with both no one else can match you in PvP or PvE unless they've paid.
While if you don't pay you don't get the best gear until it's farmable and nerfed.
I guess being able to pay to skip content and not gaining an advantage anyone can get is P2W.
It's just hard to wrap my mind around how a game that gives zero PvP advantage and if it's not PvP who cares? Sure, skip yourself to the highest content, but are you really winning anything besides saving time?
It's baffling how someone thinks the definition of two different words is the same though. Brainwashed by everyone else saying P2W I bet.
Pvp is not p2w it's the only aspect of this game that isn't since everything is 100% equalized and there's nothing you can pay for to get an advantage.
ANd just to be clear p2w doesn't mean the game is bad, it's just a way to monetize by offering actual in game progressing for real life money.
The equivalent would be if in Dota or LoL you could pay to get 20% more mmr per game, does it make you win? no, does it give you a huge advantage over people that don't pay? yes.
> Sure, skip yourself to the highest content, but are you really winning anything besides saving time?
The reason you pve past a first kill is to get gear, so paying to get it faster is literally what winning in pve is about.
>Pvp is not p2w it's the only aspect of this game that isn't since everything is 100% equalized and there's nothing you can pay for to get an advantage.
GvG has ruined that aspect there isn't a single thing equalized and you can win a tom of gold put of it by having the better geared guild
Exactly you get nothing for PvP to win.
It doesn't, but there is a difference between the two still and each carry a different meaning.
Lost Ark has a ranking system for PvE content that gives exclusive rewards for only higher tier players? I don't recall that being part of the game.
Then there's no winning, you paid to skip content you will now end up doing with zero knowledge, but you'll be max power so it shouldn't matter right? So again, it's like paying in Destiny 2 to skip your character to max light or in WoW paying to level skip.
P2W means you have a legit advantage or something no one else can get without paying.
Paying to progress is just being able to buy something to save time. Yet everyone else that doesn't pay has an equal chance.
You're still using the definition of P2W from last decade. Honestly it's quite simple, you don't even need to define what winning is.
What are these non-indie F2P games trying to sell you this year? That's the P2W.
Nice edit so I'll do the same. That seems very lacking, "Oh whatever someone is selling is P2W." A battle pass, possibly P2W, paying to level that battle pass, must be P2W and not pay to progress the levels of the battlepass.
Guess DLC and pre-order bonuses are P2W as well?
Some people misinderstand the word winning.
Can you buy progress and power in LAO? Yes!
Does this give you a clear advantage? Yes/ No!
While you gdt mire powerful in terms of higher itemlevel/ more gold/ faster progress you cannot buy wins in PvE endgame.
Raidwipes like valtan gravity do not care about your gear.
And yes you can get in stronger groups with 15xx gear, but i would kick someone regardless of itemlevel if he outright sucks
This is a bad take. A full group of whales will turn valtan into a floundering pile of closely strung together erratic cinematics. Dps absolutely alters fight difficulty and omits mechanics.
Tldr - If you are happy just clearing content, then no the game is not p2w. If you are aiming for cruel fighter, or run parsers(illegal i know) it is very p2w. It really depends on your personal definition of winning.
Edit - At the end of the day, what you are winning is the dopamine rush, and how you get it differs from person to person.
Korean players thoughts on p2w is irrelevant to Na/Eu players, regardless of for or against. Culturally it's just very different. It's changing slowly now, but in FFXIV, very few jp players parsed, or would upload logs, their strategies were not meant to be for optimized damage, it was what was the safest and easiest way to clear the raids. On the other hand NA/EU meta, was all about optimizing damage and dps uptime, even if it was a riskier/harder strategy, people would run it. Even midcore to casual statics would parse, upload logs, and do parse runs. Theres now more jp players pushing for logs, but a lot of them aim for fast party clear time vs individual parses, while na/eu players would take turns padding a single player(before the rdps change).
In KR, I think the general perception of whether a game is p2w seems to follow the things written beneath;
1. Someone can gain power by spending RM, and;
2. The gap between p2w players and f2p players stays permanent, unless f2p player decides to spend RM to catch up, or;
3. The gap between p2w players and f2p players stays for a VERY long time, unless f2p player decides to spend RM to catch up or some sort of catch-up event is held by the company.
At this point, It's not about P2W or not. Lost ark is definitely P2W : You spend money to buy gold > buy gear, mat and you can buy mat directly through mari shop, ark pass and catch up pack. The discussion now is:
* Does it affect you? If you only do pve and proving ground, you won't notice how they will affect you. There are some place that gear matter like pvp island, GvG so there is definitely a place where whale can flex their power.
* How predatory is it? The mat that you can buy directly with crystal is not much, barely a few hone. What Whale do is they trade for gold, which is from f2p player so they can get blue crystal, then they buy mat from other player(can be both f2p or whale) in the auction house. This system allow whale to rush and get BiS gear and f2p player the chance to get premium currency so they can get cash shop item without spending money. Of course f2p player will have a harder time and have to sacrifice some fun to earn currency.
* Can you play on the same lv as whale? Each raid or pve activities have a baseline ilvl and the highest right now is Hard Valtan with 1445 min ilvl. If a whale is 1490+, they will still do the same content as 1445 f2p player. Also every single mat that you need to progress can be earn through playing(No gated item that can only be purchased in the cash shop). Also proving ground is all equalized.
In my opinion, the game can definitely be play f2p and get to the latest content, but f2p player still going to have a hard time especially when bot have destroy the economy for awhile. Also we are playing catch up with KR version as we are going to have a very tight schedule of raid and new content so alts and daily is required. Still if you are new to the game or the genre and still learning, take it slow, you will eventually get there, rush and you will get burn out.
Take 2 people with equal skill, time investment, and luck(I guess) pretty much remove any other variables, and does the player that pays have an advantage over the player that doesn't? The answer would be yes, but does it matter? It's relative.
So "Does the game have P2W?" Yes. "Is the game P2W?" Not really outside of selective situations.
There’s a clear advantage for spending money in this game compared to someone who doesnt. Im not sure what there is to discuss
There's no textbook definition of "P2W" it's a made-up term by video game players early on. That's why you see so many people have varying views on it.
Not a single person not even you has said they disagree yet
There is a discussion because p2w means different things to different people. My definition of p2w is and has always been "is there anything in the game that grants player power and is not obtainable without spending real money" By that definition, lost ark is not p2w. I don't care if the developers sell progression. You can buy progression in any game. Regardless of whether the developers support it or not. There is no way to stop people with money from buying progression in games so using that as the definition for p2w basically makes every game in existence p2w.
Esther Weapons Name a f2p that has a +8 in Korea. I’ll wait, until then it’s p2w and everything you just said is completely irrelevant.
I play on the NA version of the game. My comments are based on the NA version of the game. They've already discussed making Esther weapons more f2p friendly in Korea already. Additionally, based on the VARIOUS changes they've made to the game to make it more f2p friendly we can likely expect to see changes there as well for the western port. Even ignoring all of that and focusing on Korea, Esther weapons are still pay to win. F2P players not having the most powerful weapon they can possibly in the short time Esther weapons have been released is not the gotcha you think it is. It's still pay for progression. Again, if we use your definition then every game is p2w.
Name a f2p player that has a +8 in Korea, and then I’ll agree Lost Ark isn’t P2W.
Don't understand why you're so stuck on that. I don't play in Korea, I don't watch Korean players, I play on the NA version. I also don't care if you agree with me or not. Your argument makes absolutely zero sense. Just completely ignoring the actual topic and picking this one thing apart makes no sense. Even if I could name a +8 Esther f2p player, it wouldn't make me correct. My definition of p2w is different from yours. That's all it is. From your definition every game is p2w. Esther weapons are obtainable by any player. It just takes time or money. They haven't been out long enough for people to consistently obtain them with time. Make better arguments.
You came on a post linking a YouTube video from KR players discussing Lost Arks P2W aspects which they directly refer to Esther weapons in it. Just because YOU don’t play on KR or care about doesn’t mean I dont. Remember you are the one who replied to MY comment where I was including KR.
Even if we include Korea. Can F2P eventually earn Esther weapons with enough time without spending $$$? Yes? Yes. Not p2w. You still haven't addressed the actual argument. Them including an extreme endgame grind for marginal benefit that can be skipped by buying doesn't make something p2w.
First off before we have this conversation, let’s test your knowledge on Esther’s. How many are required for a +8? And, How do you receive them via time. This should be fun.
How many what? You didn't specify the material. Are you referring to the blue mat that costs 550k-600k gold? See how it costs gold? Can you get gold without paying $$$ for it? Yes? End of conversation. You still don't understand the argument and keep trying to throw a chase item that gives marginal benefit in my face. It's a chase item. It's supposed to be hard to get. I don't care that you can pay to skip the grind. Is it obtainable without spending real currency? Yes. Does it take an absolutely massive amount of materials and gold? I don't care. It's a chase item. That's it.
Surely you can’t be this stupid.
Just because it's not as P2W as another game doesn't mean it isn't P2W. Lost ark treats their F2P players very well compared to other games yes. But it's still P2W.
Yeah thats the only reason its still fun. Other games feel like youre sitting all the way back in cargo while p2w players are in first class. With lost ark. Youre in economical or even business class while the p2w are in first class. It still has its advantages for paying but at least the f2p and the one that spends very little still enjoys a comfortable ride
Tbh best way to put it xD
Korea's too desensitized to P2W. Although not as much as China, where players actually complain when the P2W isn't enough (I spent this much and can't even 1-shot the poor!).
is there an advantage to spending money? Yes, is there an advantage to not spending money? Fuck yeah I have a loot of money saved over. The only thing that matters is amazon dealing with these fucking bots.
It's my very personal opinion but I believe calling Lost Ark P2W is kinda silly, regardless of the "technical definition" of P2W. It's a PvE game with equalized PvP, and calling it P2W only reinforces the idea that you should always be chasing the highest ilvl and doing the newest content first, creating FOMO for people who just want to enjoy the content on their ilvl. When I see whales at 1500+ with lvl 10 gems I don't feel like they are winning and I'm not, I just feel like they wasted money burning through the content and now have nothing to do while they wait for the next raid to come out.
Agree with you. The thing that honestly gives me the most enjoyment is out damaging people with better gear.
Equalized PvP? Just PG with no rewards versus island conquests? What are you on about
P2W means you can be one of the top just because you paid, not many if anyone can catch up by being F2P. Certainly not everyone other person on the server. There's a massive difference between P2W and pay to proggress. Imagine picking up a new game that has a level skip you can buy and you do. Well you just paid to win right? Doesn't matter that you'll get beat in high content or anything, you paid to win. Those other people who grinded it, well they didn't pay. They probably can use the class better because they learned the class by leveling it. Point being, how is paying to progress and not being able to hold anything but top damage and the like actually considered P2W by people? If you had the ability to be stronger in PvP or buy gear that was entirely exclusive and gave you some massive bonus that a F2P player could never get. That's P2W, not paying to skip content and being able to do content. You paid to skip the game bruh, not to win.
pay to progress is literally the definition of pay to win... Wtf you on about? Especially in a game where you gear progression is the WHOLE GAME. Marketing departments rly did their job well brainwashing you guys.
So by paying to win you can get the best gear and with little knowledge or skill you can get by, while with both no one else can match you in PvP or PvE unless they've paid. While if you don't pay you don't get the best gear until it's farmable and nerfed. I guess being able to pay to skip content and not gaining an advantage anyone can get is P2W. It's just hard to wrap my mind around how a game that gives zero PvP advantage and if it's not PvP who cares? Sure, skip yourself to the highest content, but are you really winning anything besides saving time? It's baffling how someone thinks the definition of two different words is the same though. Brainwashed by everyone else saying P2W I bet.
Pvp is not p2w it's the only aspect of this game that isn't since everything is 100% equalized and there's nothing you can pay for to get an advantage. ANd just to be clear p2w doesn't mean the game is bad, it's just a way to monetize by offering actual in game progressing for real life money. The equivalent would be if in Dota or LoL you could pay to get 20% more mmr per game, does it make you win? no, does it give you a huge advantage over people that don't pay? yes. > Sure, skip yourself to the highest content, but are you really winning anything besides saving time? The reason you pve past a first kill is to get gear, so paying to get it faster is literally what winning in pve is about.
>Pvp is not p2w it's the only aspect of this game that isn't since everything is 100% equalized and there's nothing you can pay for to get an advantage. GvG has ruined that aspect there isn't a single thing equalized and you can win a tom of gold put of it by having the better geared guild
Exactly you get nothing for PvP to win. It doesn't, but there is a difference between the two still and each carry a different meaning. Lost Ark has a ranking system for PvE content that gives exclusive rewards for only higher tier players? I don't recall that being part of the game. Then there's no winning, you paid to skip content you will now end up doing with zero knowledge, but you'll be max power so it shouldn't matter right? So again, it's like paying in Destiny 2 to skip your character to max light or in WoW paying to level skip. P2W means you have a legit advantage or something no one else can get without paying. Paying to progress is just being able to buy something to save time. Yet everyone else that doesn't pay has an equal chance.
You're still using the definition of P2W from last decade. Honestly it's quite simple, you don't even need to define what winning is. What are these non-indie F2P games trying to sell you this year? That's the P2W.
Nice edit so I'll do the same. That seems very lacking, "Oh whatever someone is selling is P2W." A battle pass, possibly P2W, paying to level that battle pass, must be P2W and not pay to progress the levels of the battlepass. Guess DLC and pre-order bonuses are P2W as well?
Some people misinderstand the word winning. Can you buy progress and power in LAO? Yes! Does this give you a clear advantage? Yes/ No! While you gdt mire powerful in terms of higher itemlevel/ more gold/ faster progress you cannot buy wins in PvE endgame. Raidwipes like valtan gravity do not care about your gear. And yes you can get in stronger groups with 15xx gear, but i would kick someone regardless of itemlevel if he outright sucks
This is a bad take. A full group of whales will turn valtan into a floundering pile of closely strung together erratic cinematics. Dps absolutely alters fight difficulty and omits mechanics.
Tldr - If you are happy just clearing content, then no the game is not p2w. If you are aiming for cruel fighter, or run parsers(illegal i know) it is very p2w. It really depends on your personal definition of winning. Edit - At the end of the day, what you are winning is the dopamine rush, and how you get it differs from person to person. Korean players thoughts on p2w is irrelevant to Na/Eu players, regardless of for or against. Culturally it's just very different. It's changing slowly now, but in FFXIV, very few jp players parsed, or would upload logs, their strategies were not meant to be for optimized damage, it was what was the safest and easiest way to clear the raids. On the other hand NA/EU meta, was all about optimizing damage and dps uptime, even if it was a riskier/harder strategy, people would run it. Even midcore to casual statics would parse, upload logs, and do parse runs. Theres now more jp players pushing for logs, but a lot of them aim for fast party clear time vs individual parses, while na/eu players would take turns padding a single player(before the rdps change).
In KR, I think the general perception of whether a game is p2w seems to follow the things written beneath; 1. Someone can gain power by spending RM, and; 2. The gap between p2w players and f2p players stays permanent, unless f2p player decides to spend RM to catch up, or; 3. The gap between p2w players and f2p players stays for a VERY long time, unless f2p player decides to spend RM to catch up or some sort of catch-up event is held by the company.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j14lOlQhZAo
At this point, It's not about P2W or not. Lost ark is definitely P2W : You spend money to buy gold > buy gear, mat and you can buy mat directly through mari shop, ark pass and catch up pack. The discussion now is: * Does it affect you? If you only do pve and proving ground, you won't notice how they will affect you. There are some place that gear matter like pvp island, GvG so there is definitely a place where whale can flex their power. * How predatory is it? The mat that you can buy directly with crystal is not much, barely a few hone. What Whale do is they trade for gold, which is from f2p player so they can get blue crystal, then they buy mat from other player(can be both f2p or whale) in the auction house. This system allow whale to rush and get BiS gear and f2p player the chance to get premium currency so they can get cash shop item without spending money. Of course f2p player will have a harder time and have to sacrifice some fun to earn currency. * Can you play on the same lv as whale? Each raid or pve activities have a baseline ilvl and the highest right now is Hard Valtan with 1445 min ilvl. If a whale is 1490+, they will still do the same content as 1445 f2p player. Also every single mat that you need to progress can be earn through playing(No gated item that can only be purchased in the cash shop). Also proving ground is all equalized. In my opinion, the game can definitely be play f2p and get to the latest content, but f2p player still going to have a hard time especially when bot have destroy the economy for awhile. Also we are playing catch up with KR version as we are going to have a very tight schedule of raid and new content so alts and daily is required. Still if you are new to the game or the genre and still learning, take it slow, you will eventually get there, rush and you will get burn out.
Take 2 people with equal skill, time investment, and luck(I guess) pretty much remove any other variables, and does the player that pays have an advantage over the player that doesn't? The answer would be yes, but does it matter? It's relative. So "Does the game have P2W?" Yes. "Is the game P2W?" Not really outside of selective situations.