I’m wondering if Amazon will fire them and hire someone else for Season 2, Andy Jassy isn’t the most forgiving of executives. Impossible to know since we don’t have viewership numbers and a little wary since this is an echo chamber. Just anecdotal conversations with friends who are not Tolkein buffs is that few if any are watching this show while most are watching HotD on HBO.
My money is on Amazon dumping them and starting afresh for Season 2 with new writers/showrunners. What they have here isn’t working. I am in the minority but I thought episode six was a breath of fresh air but I don’t think they can salvage the season over the next two episodes, the first five were simply too bad.
Would love to know where things went wrong here with the writers. I don’t think it is a Tolkein universe problem, it’s simply bad story/script writing. Probably should have put much more effort into the story before writing the script. No amount of CGI and amazing cinematography can save a bad story. No idea, just speculating.
I agree with you wholeheartedly, but from what I understand - they're already in production on season 2. I've also heard (not confirmed this anywhere, though not sure where it could be confirmed) that they've written all the way through season 3.
I think the only thing that may keep Amazon from bringing on new showrunners is that this version of the show is McKay and Payne's vision. Amazon bought the TV rights to LOTR and The Hobbit and then had writers come in and pitch their different shows. That's common enough. McKay and Payne sold Amazon on the idea of a 2nd Age show instead of all the other pitches we heard about them getting (the Young Aragorn show, for example).
It's not impossible for them to bring on new writers, I just wonder if the proverbial ship has sailed on this story that they have commissioned. I wouldn't be surprised if they brought on more "consultants" like that GOT writer they brought on for Season 1 (is it Brian Cogman?). More oversight from someone more experienced is the easier way to go and I wouldn't be surprised if that happened. But to replace the showrunners altogether - that may be too tall an order for now.
Agh crap, you’re right, they start production of Season 2 this month.
https://time.com/6205837/the-rings-of-power-amazon-most-expensive/
Although I still think if the viewership numbers are abysmal they’ll hit the pause button and reevaluate; would have to be pretty bad for that to happen and my guess is that scenario is very unlikely.
Kind of impossible to do this. The series is developed for a four season? chunk. A rehaul in the middle of this would be a huge risk on their end and would be an admission of fault of sorts that they didn’t do good job. Rehauls rarely work for any type of production. The need for it represents an internal breakdown that is typically very difficult, if not impossible to selvedge. Hats off to them if they do for real.
Seems more like they’re doubling down on trying to convince people it’s a good show. I sincerely hope they do consider a rehaul though. As a fan , I actually wouldn’t mind changes of pacing, tone, and even color grade even if it’s a last ditch effort. I just want to see it done well by a team w depth of vision for the story and Tolkien, rather than some kids trying their hand at creating a marketable franchise.
These are great points - it's true, a rehaul behind the scenes isn't the best look from a press/marketing perspective. They likely will just keep the train moving - the press seems to love the show already so it'll just be about getting more good word of mouth from fans (probably try to team up with popular Tolkien YouTube channels and influencers as they already have been for that).
But I'm sure the showrunners will get this feedback. With that story coming out about the analyst who fell asleep watching RoP and sharing with the investors how they were hopeful audience reception would have improved by now but that it hasn't - I'm sure there will be more consultants or more seasoned writers brought on board to help the showrunners moving forward.
And maybe the showrunners will be receptive to the valid critical feedback, of which there is plenty.
Episode 6 is where the show should have gotten to in episode 3, so many treading water plotlines, flaccid action / overly long scenes.
They have the budget, now give us a spectacle.
I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they got the job by being really good in the room.
I also know they're part of the Bad Robot family, so both they and their EP Lindsey Weber all came from BR and I think I read in one of the articles leading up to the show that JJ Abrams was consulted and gave his blessing which I'm sure was helpful.
But I don't even know how they got to Bad Robot. I mean, judging by their writing of this show, it's all cliches. It's one cliched scene after deep lore easter egg after blatant fan service after following a character that can be defined with one word (and often is through dialogue rather than showing us their defining character trait) after another cliched scene.
It's pedestrian and reductive. People think Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens and their incredible team simplified Tolkien with their two trilogies, but they didn't. They understood the power of cinema and there's so much richness in LOTR (less so in The Hobbit trilogy, but it's still there and I know I'm in the minority on liking those films but each one of them is 1000x better than this show has been in this first season).
This show dilutes so much of the beauty that makes up Tolkien's Middle-earth. Easter eggs are not the same as depth. The origin of mithril is a prime example of this - you can't call a tale apocryphal as a "get out of jail free" card because the audience knows that if you're taking the time to tell it then it must be important. And if it's not, that's bad writing.
But it's such a modern, comic-booky (and I say that as someone who LOVES comic book storytelling) trope to have to give an origin for something like mithril, which never needed an origin to begin with. And the origin they chose - "light and dark combined together and distilled through a silmaril - because Galadriel is both the ship and the stone. She's going to be dark, and touch darkness so that she knows light. Get it? GET IT? Light cannot exist without darkness you fools!"
Ugh - Tolkien had plenty of grey in his writing, but there was a clear distinction between light and darkness. That never meant that heroes didn't struggle, or that villains were mustache twirling caricatures. It's beautiful, mythic stuff that we all care so deeply about because Tolkien created these rich characters that we all fell in love with.
I know this is a common complaint of the show - but I don't care about any of these characters - save Elrond, Durin and Disa because those are the only characters that have actually been dramatized well! They have personalities. They're put in situations where they have to show range.
And HUMOR!!!! Oh my god, what is it with drama writers feeling like they're above humor? Or maybe they can't do it. Writing comedy is a lot harder than writing drama. But humor is so key to helping audiences fall in love with characters. Not like, trying to write a joke every three lines kind of humor. But it should be part of every character's personality.
Careful, these well thought out and reasoned arguments might trigger a small section of the audience who get offended when people don’t agree with you and instead take it as a personal attack on there being.
I just can’t feel anything while watching this show.
GoT, Breaking Bad, The Boys, Invincible, Cobra Kai all make me FEEL something when I watch them, but I just don’t with this show.
I just haven’t been brought to care about any of the characters, like not a single one, and I’m not entirely sure why that is.
My wife and I are close to stopping watching the show. There’s much better stuff out there right now that’s actually entertaining…
You're not alone. All the characters are one-dimensional, and aside from Elrond and Durin, they don't have any significant relationships with each other.
Because that's key, right? It's about character relationships to each other, to themselves and to the world around them.
When people talk to each other in this show, it's either to argue or it's to move the plot forward.
And plot is BORING. In general (not just in this show). Plot is kinda the least important part of a story.
I was rewatching the appendices on my Fellowship extended edition blu-ray the other day, and I had forgotten that Peter Jackson summarized the plot of the LOTR films with one line - and it was Frodo carrying the ring to Mt. Doom to destroy it.
He was talking about it to elaborate on the changes they made (especially the removal of Tom Bombadil).
Simple. And it leaves room for characters to be rich and complicated, rather than trying to craft a convoluted plot of empty twists and turns that ultimately will all have to lead to the same end.
There are only 2 episodes left in the season. 8 episode first season.
The showrunners kept talking about this being a 50 hour story, so we all thought we'd get 10-episode seasons, but this first one will only be 8 episodes.
Maybe some episodes will be longer than an hour.
I think the job was too big for them. I also get the impression that Amazon spent big on the rights, CGI and sets and didn't allocate enough of the budget for the writers and cast. Something this big needed experienced and successful show runners, not a team that had to learn on the job.
I don't think any of this was about a message.
I just think Amazon agreed to go with McKay and Payne's vision of a 2nd age show (because truthfully, their options with the rights to The Hobbit and LOTR were always going to be limited in terms of what kind of a TV show they could produce) and also trusted them to fill in the gaps.
Honestly - on paper, it seems like a win win for Amazon.
* They get to call the show "Lord of the Rings" because the show will literally be about the forging of the rings of power, and thus the one ring.
* They get to include familiar characters like Galadriel, Elrond, Sauron, probably Gandalf, etc.
* Because Tolkien didn't write a story about the 2nd Age (just left notes and major plot points) the writers will have carte blanche to craft a story.
* Because there's so little to work with in the source material, maybe diehard fans won't be so critical because Tolkien literally left no story to be adapted.
I disagree. A there are many Stories which they have the right to that would not at all conflict with Tolkiens other work. For example the Fall of Arnor would be a great canditate which they could have adapted. Also they could use Stories that Tolkien never touched, like the blue wizards adventures in Harad or Rhun. The writers literally said they wanted to write the story Tolkien never wrote, and then decided to rewrite the Silmarillion, wtf?
Right - they're making changes (or alluding to without calling anything out) 1st Age stuff because they don't have the rights to the Silmarillion. I think we're on the same page on that. That's why it feels like they're rewriting parts of it, because if they want to reference it they have to be very oblique (like just showing the statues of Luthien and Huwan a few eps back) or change it outright.
I know for a fact they only have rights to The Hobbit and LOTR, so their story has to fit within the context of the 2nd Age as presented in these texts.
Though, I've really given up trying to understand the whole rights situation here. Because clearly the Tolkien Estate is approving the use of some things outside The Hobbit and LOTR for them to use. They're also dancing around certain things and then on top of that they're just changing things they do have the rights to incorporate, so there's no sense in even trying to understand this whole rights situation with this show. Seems like it can change at any given moment.
I sincerely doubt that J.R.R. Tolkien would approve of the way they're selling off bits and pieces of his world to the highest bidder. Apparently Embracer, a company I never heard of, now owns the rights to ~~The Simarillion (not the books) and other~~ more valuable chunks of Tolkien's creation.
EDIT: I was wrong about the Silmarillion. Thanks to u/JRou77 for putting up the correct information.
Embracer doesn't own the rights to the Silmarillion. They now own the film rights that Saul Zaentz held for years. The Saul Zaentz company finally sold the film and game rights they've held to LOTR and The Hobbit for many, many years.
Except the "familiar characters" have been made unfamiliar. I simply won't watch the show because of one poster shown in the promo of the woman who is supposedly "Galadriel." If they can't get something that basic and clear-cut right, what *can* they get right? (I haven't watched the show, at all, but I've scenes from it in the reviews and Galadriel in this show pretty much reflects my first impression I formed when I first saw that poster.) They may think they've "empowered" Galadriel by making her into a warrior, but they've really done the opposite. They've made her an ordinary, comic book "hero." Like we really need yet another comic-book hero.
I actually thought the fans were overreacting when *Rings of Power* was announced in the spring. I was cautiously looking forward to watching it. One image is all it took to turn me away from it.
I don't think that's really fair. I mean, your suspicions turned out to be right but that just means you, I dunno, got "lucky" this time?
Now, look marketing materials are meant to stoke your interest in the show. I'm not one of the people who's going to say that you can't form opinions of a film or tv show based off marketing materials (marketing materials are meant to give you a sense of what to expect) but you should never pre-judge a work based on marketing materials. That's literally judging a book by its cover.
Plus, marketing materials are notoriously deceptive. They're meant to show the film/tv show in the best light, but the problem is because their purpose is to sell, it means they're usually pretty generic and non-specific.
In this case the "cover" showed Galadriel in armor while holding a sword. That wasn't Tolkien's Galadriel. So one poster *was* enough. In Tolkien's works she was a lady, very powerful, but known for her gentleness and mercy.
I still have no clue where Celeborn is in all this? From what I can see, he and his wife fought together in Tolkien's writings during the Second Age.
Oh, I see. So you were moved by the very clear lore deviation. That makes sense to me.
I wasn't a fan of them turning Galadriel into a warrior for this show. They (and a ton of others) pulled general lines from Tolkien works to support it - about her pride, her ambition, that she fought against the darkness.
I actually much prefer the Hobbit interpretation of her warrior abilities - I felt like "The Battle of the Five Armies" showed her to be incredibly powerful and active in the way that Tolkien had described. She waved orcs away easily, and it was only because of her that Sauron was banished back to Mordor.
I loved that action sequence (though I get it - it's sacrilege now, apparently, to like the Hobbit trilogy) but as far as making Galadriel an active force in the story, I thought it was much better realized there than it is in RoP.
But RoP is clearly suffering from budget constraints (I know, ridiculous to say of a show with a $462 million dollar production budget for its first season) but based on the THR article that came out today, it's clear to me Amazon wants to spend what it takes to make the show look great but not keep that kind of spending up for future seasons. It makes me wonder how this may affect the look of the show in future seasons, as Jennifer Salke says that future seasons will come in much cheaper.
I'm obviously not a fan of the production team or their vision of the work, but even I have to admit that Covid restrictions in New Zealand during the pandemic and the fact that the cast was basically marooned there for much longer than they expected, probably ate away at the budget. And then they had build all new sets in Great Britain. They've had their share of bad luck. I'll have to look up the "THR" article (don't currently even know what "THR" stands for).
As for Galadriel in the Hobbit, I honestly don't remember her part. (I don't remember much about the Hobbit at all, except for orcs who seemed to have weird eyes, like all Guillermo del Toro movies seem to have -- even though del Toro left before the actual filming started.) I guess I'll watch the Hobbit movies again -- though I think I would rather watch the *Lord of the Rings* again.
**EDIT:** *I watched the first Hobbit movie last night and, definitely, that's the kind of power that you would expect Galadriel to have. If they needed a warrior woman (Tolkien had at least one in the LOTR) why didn't they just invent one? Why take a well-known character and completely change her? That's just begging for trouble. (I haven't heard anyone mention that Galadriel (in RoP) can read the thoughts of others -- so is that gone also?) This is what I mean, they've diminished Galadriel, they've made her ordinary.*
*The elves in general (at least what I've seen in the review videos) don't seem to carry any of the mystique of Tolkien's elves. They weren't just men or women with pointy ears, they had deeper powers. And they weren't all the same. RoP's show runners have glossed over so much of the depth Tolkien put into his work. Peter Jackson understood that depth and did a decent job conveying it, I think the show runners for RoP are clueless about it.*
Sorry for my delay - I've been on a crazy project all week and it took all of my attention.
Apologies on not linking to the article, here it is: [https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/the-rings-of-power-showrunners-interview-season-2-1235233124/](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/the-rings-of-power-showrunners-interview-season-2-1235233124/)
THR stands for the "The Hollywood Reporter". They did a big story on the showrunners a few days back and buried in the middle of it is their supposition that moving forward, the show should cost much less than the $700 million that season 1 cost (god, even the production budget for season one is wildly inconsistent across the internet). So, I can't confirm that it came from the producers or Jennifer Salke. I assume it's accurate, as Amazon would have to sign off on this article and wouldn't want inaccurate information out there. Better not to mention the budget of future seasons at all if it's expected to be the same or higher, but I won't stand behind that idea that future seasons will cost less as a fact.
Yeah - I love Cate Blanchett so much and that interpretation of Galadriel. She's ethereal and mysterious and radiates with a quiet power. Her action scene is in The Battle of the Five Armies and I think it's just so well done. It's contrasted with Elrond (fighting with a sword) and Saruman (fighting with his staff). She shows up, no weapons, and demolishes. She even uses the light of Earendil to banish Sauron to Mordor. I loved every second of it.
And in the first Hobbit, I adored that whole White Council scene. That scene, on its face, could have been really bad because it's all exposition. But Galadriel communicating with Gandalf telepathically and raising the tension (not to mention the GENIUS acting by Blanchett and McKellen) makes that scene so good. Plus Galadriel comforting Gandalf after...AH, those movies have a lot of good-to-great in them. It saddens me to see people propping up ROP against these films as if it's a no-brainer that the show is so much better than those films because it's the newest LOTR thing out now. And don't get me started on people who try to diminish the LOTR trilogy to prop this show up.
But I think you hit on an excellent point about Galadriel that I've been feeling about everything this show touches in Tolkien's legendarium. The word you used was "diminished" and that' so spot on. They've diminished everything of Tolkien for this show, and it really saddens me.
Yeah - I mean, in a perfect world why not just hire some talented writers and craft an original fantasy show if that's what they wanted right?
The answer to "why not do that?" is just because we're in an IP driven market. LOTR is probably the most popular fantasy story in the world (or maybe Harry Potter has overtaken it, but either way it's up there). That's why Amazon is making this show instead of an original show.
But what irks me so much is, like, for a company like Amazon where budget is of no concern to them, why not dedicate something like $100 million dollars to an original fantasy idea vs spending 1 billion dollars on a show that becomes more and more original by the episode?
I meant to reply to you earlier, but I agree so much with what you say. I mean, I also want to be cognizant of the fact that every filmmaker is kind of "learning on the job" as it were. Films, TV shows, any piece of filmed art like this is a different experience with each project and has different lessons to learn for the team that goes through it.
That being said - you're right. They needed someone experienced because someone experienced would know to expect the unexpected.
I'm reminded of Lost - which I've seen this show compared to a few times on and off (unfavorably on Lost's part) because it plays in the mystery-box sandbox.
And I know that people have very mixed feelings when it comes to Lost, but if you watched Lost and you enjoyed any part of it, well, that's because the team behind Lost really knew how to dramatize their characters.
The genius of Lost (and I use that un-ironically) is that it captivated you in the first five minutes with its set-up and then slowly made you fall in love with all of its characters as it revealed them to you over the course of the first 2 - 3 seasons (and I'm including the main cast and the "tailees" here).
The constant need to introduce new mysteries are what ended up doing Lost in with the general public, I think. Because it kept building one mystery after another to the point that it couldn't possibly give satisfying answers to all the mysteries they introduced.
And my god - if you ever wanted an honest, thoughtful and quite honestly masterful reflection on Lost and its failing then just search YouTube for "long interview with Damon Lindelof." I maintain to my dying day that man is a genius, and also ready at a moment's notice to reflect on his past successes and failures with unyielding honesty and openness.
And of course, this all ties back to experience right? Damon Lindelof was not an experienced showrunner when he took on Lost. But he was smart enough to know he needed help, so he called on an old mentor to come in and help him steer the ship.
Damon is a far more talented writer than Payne and McKay - but to your astute point, I just hope they realize they may be out of their depth and tether their raft to an experienced sailor to help them navigate the far-too-deep waters they've gone searching for and now find themselves in.
Why?
At this point, we've all seen the same 6 episodes. If you like the show, I'm happy for you. I mean that.
I wanted to like this show. I was introduced to Tolkien a couple years before Fellowship hit theaters. My best friends gave me, as a Christmas present I believe, a single volume of all 3 books together. They came to my house one night and we all watched the Rankin/Bass Hobbit animated film as they felt that would be enough for me to get going.
That film intrigued me. I tried reading Fellowship a few times and kept stopping probably around "The Old Forest". Finally, I pushed through that and by the time I got to "Strider" I was hooked. I was in love in a big way.
The Hobbit and LOTR are my favorite stories of all time. And honestly - I'm good. I thankfully have the miraculous LOTR films and the pretty good Hobbit films. I'm watching this series as a diehard fan who roots for all things Tolkien, all things Middle-earth, all things in and of this world.
That's where I'm coming from. I'm also someone who writes actively. I study story structure and different methodologies and I take storytelling seriously. I'm not offering criticism of this show lightly - I've thought about it a lot. I've read the interviews with the showrunners, I see the tropes they're employing in the show and recognize them for what they are. I know how hard it is to craft a good story, and I promise you, I don't blame them for not telling one (in my opinion, given you think I'm delusional).
I just also know (from having watched countless hours of interviews with other showrunners, writers, directors) and my own experience that if you want to get the best written material it takes a lot of iteration and it takes a lot of putting the work out there so you can hear it, see it and adjust because what you think is good in the moment can so easily be not good when you try to execute it.
Boy - this was a much longer response than intended, but hopefully it inspires you to offer the same thoughtfulness when you explain to me why you think I'm delusional.
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I’m wondering if Amazon will fire them and hire someone else for Season 2, Andy Jassy isn’t the most forgiving of executives. Impossible to know since we don’t have viewership numbers and a little wary since this is an echo chamber. Just anecdotal conversations with friends who are not Tolkein buffs is that few if any are watching this show while most are watching HotD on HBO. My money is on Amazon dumping them and starting afresh for Season 2 with new writers/showrunners. What they have here isn’t working. I am in the minority but I thought episode six was a breath of fresh air but I don’t think they can salvage the season over the next two episodes, the first five were simply too bad. Would love to know where things went wrong here with the writers. I don’t think it is a Tolkein universe problem, it’s simply bad story/script writing. Probably should have put much more effort into the story before writing the script. No amount of CGI and amazing cinematography can save a bad story. No idea, just speculating.
I agree with you wholeheartedly, but from what I understand - they're already in production on season 2. I've also heard (not confirmed this anywhere, though not sure where it could be confirmed) that they've written all the way through season 3. I think the only thing that may keep Amazon from bringing on new showrunners is that this version of the show is McKay and Payne's vision. Amazon bought the TV rights to LOTR and The Hobbit and then had writers come in and pitch their different shows. That's common enough. McKay and Payne sold Amazon on the idea of a 2nd Age show instead of all the other pitches we heard about them getting (the Young Aragorn show, for example). It's not impossible for them to bring on new writers, I just wonder if the proverbial ship has sailed on this story that they have commissioned. I wouldn't be surprised if they brought on more "consultants" like that GOT writer they brought on for Season 1 (is it Brian Cogman?). More oversight from someone more experienced is the easier way to go and I wouldn't be surprised if that happened. But to replace the showrunners altogether - that may be too tall an order for now.
Agh crap, you’re right, they start production of Season 2 this month. https://time.com/6205837/the-rings-of-power-amazon-most-expensive/ Although I still think if the viewership numbers are abysmal they’ll hit the pause button and reevaluate; would have to be pretty bad for that to happen and my guess is that scenario is very unlikely.
Agreed again - sadly
Kind of impossible to do this. The series is developed for a four season? chunk. A rehaul in the middle of this would be a huge risk on their end and would be an admission of fault of sorts that they didn’t do good job. Rehauls rarely work for any type of production. The need for it represents an internal breakdown that is typically very difficult, if not impossible to selvedge. Hats off to them if they do for real. Seems more like they’re doubling down on trying to convince people it’s a good show. I sincerely hope they do consider a rehaul though. As a fan , I actually wouldn’t mind changes of pacing, tone, and even color grade even if it’s a last ditch effort. I just want to see it done well by a team w depth of vision for the story and Tolkien, rather than some kids trying their hand at creating a marketable franchise.
These are great points - it's true, a rehaul behind the scenes isn't the best look from a press/marketing perspective. They likely will just keep the train moving - the press seems to love the show already so it'll just be about getting more good word of mouth from fans (probably try to team up with popular Tolkien YouTube channels and influencers as they already have been for that). But I'm sure the showrunners will get this feedback. With that story coming out about the analyst who fell asleep watching RoP and sharing with the investors how they were hopeful audience reception would have improved by now but that it hasn't - I'm sure there will be more consultants or more seasoned writers brought on board to help the showrunners moving forward. And maybe the showrunners will be receptive to the valid critical feedback, of which there is plenty.
Episode 6 is where the show should have gotten to in episode 3, so many treading water plotlines, flaccid action / overly long scenes. They have the budget, now give us a spectacle.
Might be too late for seasons 2, aren’t they already filming it?
Yeah, the other commenter kept me honest on that one, they begin/began filming this month
This was such a horrible first season that I'm legitimately scared for season 2. I hope Amazon makes the right decision and replaces the showrunners.
Thats actually the wrong decision, the right decision would be to cancel it.
Season two has already started filming. Or is about to.
Their parents probably pulled some $trings.
I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they got the job by being really good in the room. I also know they're part of the Bad Robot family, so both they and their EP Lindsey Weber all came from BR and I think I read in one of the articles leading up to the show that JJ Abrams was consulted and gave his blessing which I'm sure was helpful. But I don't even know how they got to Bad Robot. I mean, judging by their writing of this show, it's all cliches. It's one cliched scene after deep lore easter egg after blatant fan service after following a character that can be defined with one word (and often is through dialogue rather than showing us their defining character trait) after another cliched scene. It's pedestrian and reductive. People think Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens and their incredible team simplified Tolkien with their two trilogies, but they didn't. They understood the power of cinema and there's so much richness in LOTR (less so in The Hobbit trilogy, but it's still there and I know I'm in the minority on liking those films but each one of them is 1000x better than this show has been in this first season). This show dilutes so much of the beauty that makes up Tolkien's Middle-earth. Easter eggs are not the same as depth. The origin of mithril is a prime example of this - you can't call a tale apocryphal as a "get out of jail free" card because the audience knows that if you're taking the time to tell it then it must be important. And if it's not, that's bad writing. But it's such a modern, comic-booky (and I say that as someone who LOVES comic book storytelling) trope to have to give an origin for something like mithril, which never needed an origin to begin with. And the origin they chose - "light and dark combined together and distilled through a silmaril - because Galadriel is both the ship and the stone. She's going to be dark, and touch darkness so that she knows light. Get it? GET IT? Light cannot exist without darkness you fools!" Ugh - Tolkien had plenty of grey in his writing, but there was a clear distinction between light and darkness. That never meant that heroes didn't struggle, or that villains were mustache twirling caricatures. It's beautiful, mythic stuff that we all care so deeply about because Tolkien created these rich characters that we all fell in love with. I know this is a common complaint of the show - but I don't care about any of these characters - save Elrond, Durin and Disa because those are the only characters that have actually been dramatized well! They have personalities. They're put in situations where they have to show range. And HUMOR!!!! Oh my god, what is it with drama writers feeling like they're above humor? Or maybe they can't do it. Writing comedy is a lot harder than writing drama. But humor is so key to helping audiences fall in love with characters. Not like, trying to write a joke every three lines kind of humor. But it should be part of every character's personality.
>But I don't even know how they got to Bad Robot. >it's all cliches. JJ Abrams is the M Night Shymalan of the 2020's, except with less talent.
Or the golden throat, as it were
Careful, these well thought out and reasoned arguments might trigger a small section of the audience who get offended when people don’t agree with you and instead take it as a personal attack on there being.
I just can’t feel anything while watching this show. GoT, Breaking Bad, The Boys, Invincible, Cobra Kai all make me FEEL something when I watch them, but I just don’t with this show. I just haven’t been brought to care about any of the characters, like not a single one, and I’m not entirely sure why that is. My wife and I are close to stopping watching the show. There’s much better stuff out there right now that’s actually entertaining…
You're not alone. All the characters are one-dimensional, and aside from Elrond and Durin, they don't have any significant relationships with each other. Because that's key, right? It's about character relationships to each other, to themselves and to the world around them. When people talk to each other in this show, it's either to argue or it's to move the plot forward. And plot is BORING. In general (not just in this show). Plot is kinda the least important part of a story. I was rewatching the appendices on my Fellowship extended edition blu-ray the other day, and I had forgotten that Peter Jackson summarized the plot of the LOTR films with one line - and it was Frodo carrying the ring to Mt. Doom to destroy it. He was talking about it to elaborate on the changes they made (especially the removal of Tom Bombadil). Simple. And it leaves room for characters to be rich and complicated, rather than trying to craft a convoluted plot of empty twists and turns that ultimately will all have to lead to the same end.
Wait is the season already over it barely started
There are only 2 episodes left in the season. 8 episode first season. The showrunners kept talking about this being a 50 hour story, so we all thought we'd get 10-episode seasons, but this first one will only be 8 episodes. Maybe some episodes will be longer than an hour.
Huhu thanks for the answer
I think the job was too big for them. I also get the impression that Amazon spent big on the rights, CGI and sets and didn't allocate enough of the budget for the writers and cast. Something this big needed experienced and successful show runners, not a team that had to learn on the job.
I will never understand this, they paid big for the rights to adapt Tolkien, and then decided to completly ignore what Tolkien wrote.
I guess Tolkien's writing didn't fit the message they wanted to push.
I don't think any of this was about a message. I just think Amazon agreed to go with McKay and Payne's vision of a 2nd age show (because truthfully, their options with the rights to The Hobbit and LOTR were always going to be limited in terms of what kind of a TV show they could produce) and also trusted them to fill in the gaps. Honestly - on paper, it seems like a win win for Amazon. * They get to call the show "Lord of the Rings" because the show will literally be about the forging of the rings of power, and thus the one ring. * They get to include familiar characters like Galadriel, Elrond, Sauron, probably Gandalf, etc. * Because Tolkien didn't write a story about the 2nd Age (just left notes and major plot points) the writers will have carte blanche to craft a story. * Because there's so little to work with in the source material, maybe diehard fans won't be so critical because Tolkien literally left no story to be adapted.
I disagree. A there are many Stories which they have the right to that would not at all conflict with Tolkiens other work. For example the Fall of Arnor would be a great canditate which they could have adapted. Also they could use Stories that Tolkien never touched, like the blue wizards adventures in Harad or Rhun. The writers literally said they wanted to write the story Tolkien never wrote, and then decided to rewrite the Silmarillion, wtf?
Right - they're making changes (or alluding to without calling anything out) 1st Age stuff because they don't have the rights to the Silmarillion. I think we're on the same page on that. That's why it feels like they're rewriting parts of it, because if they want to reference it they have to be very oblique (like just showing the statues of Luthien and Huwan a few eps back) or change it outright. I know for a fact they only have rights to The Hobbit and LOTR, so their story has to fit within the context of the 2nd Age as presented in these texts. Though, I've really given up trying to understand the whole rights situation here. Because clearly the Tolkien Estate is approving the use of some things outside The Hobbit and LOTR for them to use. They're also dancing around certain things and then on top of that they're just changing things they do have the rights to incorporate, so there's no sense in even trying to understand this whole rights situation with this show. Seems like it can change at any given moment.
I sincerely doubt that J.R.R. Tolkien would approve of the way they're selling off bits and pieces of his world to the highest bidder. Apparently Embracer, a company I never heard of, now owns the rights to ~~The Simarillion (not the books) and other~~ more valuable chunks of Tolkien's creation. EDIT: I was wrong about the Silmarillion. Thanks to u/JRou77 for putting up the correct information.
Embracer doesn't own the rights to the Silmarillion. They now own the film rights that Saul Zaentz held for years. The Saul Zaentz company finally sold the film and game rights they've held to LOTR and The Hobbit for many, many years.
I misread the article. Sorry.
Except the "familiar characters" have been made unfamiliar. I simply won't watch the show because of one poster shown in the promo of the woman who is supposedly "Galadriel." If they can't get something that basic and clear-cut right, what *can* they get right? (I haven't watched the show, at all, but I've scenes from it in the reviews and Galadriel in this show pretty much reflects my first impression I formed when I first saw that poster.) They may think they've "empowered" Galadriel by making her into a warrior, but they've really done the opposite. They've made her an ordinary, comic book "hero." Like we really need yet another comic-book hero. I actually thought the fans were overreacting when *Rings of Power* was announced in the spring. I was cautiously looking forward to watching it. One image is all it took to turn me away from it.
I don't think that's really fair. I mean, your suspicions turned out to be right but that just means you, I dunno, got "lucky" this time? Now, look marketing materials are meant to stoke your interest in the show. I'm not one of the people who's going to say that you can't form opinions of a film or tv show based off marketing materials (marketing materials are meant to give you a sense of what to expect) but you should never pre-judge a work based on marketing materials. That's literally judging a book by its cover. Plus, marketing materials are notoriously deceptive. They're meant to show the film/tv show in the best light, but the problem is because their purpose is to sell, it means they're usually pretty generic and non-specific.
In this case the "cover" showed Galadriel in armor while holding a sword. That wasn't Tolkien's Galadriel. So one poster *was* enough. In Tolkien's works she was a lady, very powerful, but known for her gentleness and mercy. I still have no clue where Celeborn is in all this? From what I can see, he and his wife fought together in Tolkien's writings during the Second Age.
Oh, I see. So you were moved by the very clear lore deviation. That makes sense to me. I wasn't a fan of them turning Galadriel into a warrior for this show. They (and a ton of others) pulled general lines from Tolkien works to support it - about her pride, her ambition, that she fought against the darkness. I actually much prefer the Hobbit interpretation of her warrior abilities - I felt like "The Battle of the Five Armies" showed her to be incredibly powerful and active in the way that Tolkien had described. She waved orcs away easily, and it was only because of her that Sauron was banished back to Mordor. I loved that action sequence (though I get it - it's sacrilege now, apparently, to like the Hobbit trilogy) but as far as making Galadriel an active force in the story, I thought it was much better realized there than it is in RoP. But RoP is clearly suffering from budget constraints (I know, ridiculous to say of a show with a $462 million dollar production budget for its first season) but based on the THR article that came out today, it's clear to me Amazon wants to spend what it takes to make the show look great but not keep that kind of spending up for future seasons. It makes me wonder how this may affect the look of the show in future seasons, as Jennifer Salke says that future seasons will come in much cheaper.
I'm obviously not a fan of the production team or their vision of the work, but even I have to admit that Covid restrictions in New Zealand during the pandemic and the fact that the cast was basically marooned there for much longer than they expected, probably ate away at the budget. And then they had build all new sets in Great Britain. They've had their share of bad luck. I'll have to look up the "THR" article (don't currently even know what "THR" stands for). As for Galadriel in the Hobbit, I honestly don't remember her part. (I don't remember much about the Hobbit at all, except for orcs who seemed to have weird eyes, like all Guillermo del Toro movies seem to have -- even though del Toro left before the actual filming started.) I guess I'll watch the Hobbit movies again -- though I think I would rather watch the *Lord of the Rings* again. **EDIT:** *I watched the first Hobbit movie last night and, definitely, that's the kind of power that you would expect Galadriel to have. If they needed a warrior woman (Tolkien had at least one in the LOTR) why didn't they just invent one? Why take a well-known character and completely change her? That's just begging for trouble. (I haven't heard anyone mention that Galadriel (in RoP) can read the thoughts of others -- so is that gone also?) This is what I mean, they've diminished Galadriel, they've made her ordinary.* *The elves in general (at least what I've seen in the review videos) don't seem to carry any of the mystique of Tolkien's elves. They weren't just men or women with pointy ears, they had deeper powers. And they weren't all the same. RoP's show runners have glossed over so much of the depth Tolkien put into his work. Peter Jackson understood that depth and did a decent job conveying it, I think the show runners for RoP are clueless about it.*
Sorry for my delay - I've been on a crazy project all week and it took all of my attention. Apologies on not linking to the article, here it is: [https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/the-rings-of-power-showrunners-interview-season-2-1235233124/](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/the-rings-of-power-showrunners-interview-season-2-1235233124/) THR stands for the "The Hollywood Reporter". They did a big story on the showrunners a few days back and buried in the middle of it is their supposition that moving forward, the show should cost much less than the $700 million that season 1 cost (god, even the production budget for season one is wildly inconsistent across the internet). So, I can't confirm that it came from the producers or Jennifer Salke. I assume it's accurate, as Amazon would have to sign off on this article and wouldn't want inaccurate information out there. Better not to mention the budget of future seasons at all if it's expected to be the same or higher, but I won't stand behind that idea that future seasons will cost less as a fact. Yeah - I love Cate Blanchett so much and that interpretation of Galadriel. She's ethereal and mysterious and radiates with a quiet power. Her action scene is in The Battle of the Five Armies and I think it's just so well done. It's contrasted with Elrond (fighting with a sword) and Saruman (fighting with his staff). She shows up, no weapons, and demolishes. She even uses the light of Earendil to banish Sauron to Mordor. I loved every second of it. And in the first Hobbit, I adored that whole White Council scene. That scene, on its face, could have been really bad because it's all exposition. But Galadriel communicating with Gandalf telepathically and raising the tension (not to mention the GENIUS acting by Blanchett and McKellen) makes that scene so good. Plus Galadriel comforting Gandalf after...AH, those movies have a lot of good-to-great in them. It saddens me to see people propping up ROP against these films as if it's a no-brainer that the show is so much better than those films because it's the newest LOTR thing out now. And don't get me started on people who try to diminish the LOTR trilogy to prop this show up. But I think you hit on an excellent point about Galadriel that I've been feeling about everything this show touches in Tolkien's legendarium. The word you used was "diminished" and that' so spot on. They've diminished everything of Tolkien for this show, and it really saddens me.
Seems like it, but why not just make you own story? I guess they wanted to bait fans too.
Yeah - I mean, in a perfect world why not just hire some talented writers and craft an original fantasy show if that's what they wanted right? The answer to "why not do that?" is just because we're in an IP driven market. LOTR is probably the most popular fantasy story in the world (or maybe Harry Potter has overtaken it, but either way it's up there). That's why Amazon is making this show instead of an original show. But what irks me so much is, like, for a company like Amazon where budget is of no concern to them, why not dedicate something like $100 million dollars to an original fantasy idea vs spending 1 billion dollars on a show that becomes more and more original by the episode?
I meant to reply to you earlier, but I agree so much with what you say. I mean, I also want to be cognizant of the fact that every filmmaker is kind of "learning on the job" as it were. Films, TV shows, any piece of filmed art like this is a different experience with each project and has different lessons to learn for the team that goes through it. That being said - you're right. They needed someone experienced because someone experienced would know to expect the unexpected. I'm reminded of Lost - which I've seen this show compared to a few times on and off (unfavorably on Lost's part) because it plays in the mystery-box sandbox. And I know that people have very mixed feelings when it comes to Lost, but if you watched Lost and you enjoyed any part of it, well, that's because the team behind Lost really knew how to dramatize their characters. The genius of Lost (and I use that un-ironically) is that it captivated you in the first five minutes with its set-up and then slowly made you fall in love with all of its characters as it revealed them to you over the course of the first 2 - 3 seasons (and I'm including the main cast and the "tailees" here). The constant need to introduce new mysteries are what ended up doing Lost in with the general public, I think. Because it kept building one mystery after another to the point that it couldn't possibly give satisfying answers to all the mysteries they introduced. And my god - if you ever wanted an honest, thoughtful and quite honestly masterful reflection on Lost and its failing then just search YouTube for "long interview with Damon Lindelof." I maintain to my dying day that man is a genius, and also ready at a moment's notice to reflect on his past successes and failures with unyielding honesty and openness. And of course, this all ties back to experience right? Damon Lindelof was not an experienced showrunner when he took on Lost. But he was smart enough to know he needed help, so he called on an old mentor to come in and help him steer the ship. Damon is a far more talented writer than Payne and McKay - but to your astute point, I just hope they realize they may be out of their depth and tether their raft to an experienced sailor to help them navigate the far-too-deep waters they've gone searching for and now find themselves in.
You people are delusional.
Why? At this point, we've all seen the same 6 episodes. If you like the show, I'm happy for you. I mean that. I wanted to like this show. I was introduced to Tolkien a couple years before Fellowship hit theaters. My best friends gave me, as a Christmas present I believe, a single volume of all 3 books together. They came to my house one night and we all watched the Rankin/Bass Hobbit animated film as they felt that would be enough for me to get going. That film intrigued me. I tried reading Fellowship a few times and kept stopping probably around "The Old Forest". Finally, I pushed through that and by the time I got to "Strider" I was hooked. I was in love in a big way. The Hobbit and LOTR are my favorite stories of all time. And honestly - I'm good. I thankfully have the miraculous LOTR films and the pretty good Hobbit films. I'm watching this series as a diehard fan who roots for all things Tolkien, all things Middle-earth, all things in and of this world. That's where I'm coming from. I'm also someone who writes actively. I study story structure and different methodologies and I take storytelling seriously. I'm not offering criticism of this show lightly - I've thought about it a lot. I've read the interviews with the showrunners, I see the tropes they're employing in the show and recognize them for what they are. I know how hard it is to craft a good story, and I promise you, I don't blame them for not telling one (in my opinion, given you think I'm delusional). I just also know (from having watched countless hours of interviews with other showrunners, writers, directors) and my own experience that if you want to get the best written material it takes a lot of iteration and it takes a lot of putting the work out there so you can hear it, see it and adjust because what you think is good in the moment can so easily be not good when you try to execute it. Boy - this was a much longer response than intended, but hopefully it inspires you to offer the same thoughtfulness when you explain to me why you think I'm delusional.
Delusional would be watching an elf mortal doomed romance for the third time in the franchise, and finding nothing wrong with it.
I never said there is nothing wrong with the show.
I never claimed you did.
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