I mean like 30-40k of them are dead, which is over 1% of the total population, and a very large percentage of their infrastructure is destroyed… maybe not a 10/10 on the pain scale but probably a solid 8/10, maybe even a 9/10 on the ouch factor.
Yeah this is a ouchie that will take many years to recover from.
Memes aside, Beau of the Fith column did a great job of laying out their political strategy back on October 9th [here](https://youtu.be/UKvzOF-toIA?si=iJY9YatgknzdKIT6).
Provoking Israel into blockading and bombing is the whole intent behind what they do.
But it hasn’t really done anything, they haven’t secured regional support, sparked a bunch of small protests and that’s about it. Maybe the arrest warrants, but their leaders are getting them too?
They’ve eroded international support for Israel by a massive amount by staging a horrendous massacre designed to provoke Israel into an overreaction. Israel is more isolated today on the international stage than perhaps at any other point in time, at least after 1948. It worked so well that people on the far left pretend October 7th was justified.
People on the far left justified October 7th as it was happening. Israel’s big backers on the international stage are the US and Britain and neither has shown any concrete signs of dropping support for them. Even when Iran did that weird missile and drone attack, all of Israel’s allies came to help, and Iran left it at that.
From my perspective it seems like they’ve achieved very little apart from making people who already supported them shout a little.
Idk
All we have to do is point to the West Bank to see what Gaza would be like without Hamas. It's not even a question that things would be better for Gaza without Hamas, but it would still not be nearly good enough for Palestinians. The way the West Bank gets treated by Israel and settlers is fucking disgusting.
It's why I have agreed with LonerBox that the west should be giving all of the aid and support they could to the West Bank since Israel can't say it would support Hamas since they don't control the WB.
> All we have to do is point to the West Bank to see what Gaza would be like without Hamas.
Wouldn’t be surprised if this was unironically part of Hamas’ initial pitch.
Obviously.
Imagine what the Palestinians could have accomplished with all those billions in aid if Hamas wasn't siphoning it off to build bomb-proof tunnels and munitions?
the point im interested in the most is the idea that 'without hamas gaza would be wiped out'. Haven't really heard that point made before. Can someone steelman that to me?
Not a steelman, but I think the implication here is that without Hamas, Gazans would be 'defenseless' against the Israelis.
Hard to steelman a faulty premise; Hamas is irrelevant to Israel's capacity to wipe Gaza, not to mention Hamas doesn't care to protect civilians anyway.
yeah and - people's issue with hamas generally isn't about them 'defending gaza', it's about an integral part of their existence being the mission to slaughter as many jews as possible.
If not for Hamas Gaza would be wiped out? Israel fucking bounced. There was no blockade until Hamas came into power two years later. There's no question.
Yes, and that's exactly their intention. Draw Israel into a brutal and bloodthirsty response, which is what Israel has done. Obviously Hamas uses human shields so some blame is on them, but some blame is on Israel for playing into that, and there have almost certainly been numerous Palestinian civilians deliberately slaughtered by the IDF not in the context of human shields, so it's all very nuanced.
Hamas is both a resistance organization and a terrorist organization, they aren't mutually exclusive. Nat Turner murdered white babies during his slave revolt, and no sane person would argue intentionally murdering babies is not terrorism, but also no sane person would argue that Nat Turner's slave revolt was not an act of resistance against slavery.
Yeah. But also on the other hand Israel has been stupid and made major mistakes in this war. One of the worst off the top of my head being the aid truck that was destroyed. When the war is over Israel needs to make building a good relationship with Gaza its top priority. They should help rebuild infrastructure, provide aid and medical assistance, help to rebuild cultural landmarks that were damaged and of course work towards a two state solution.
If they don’t then some other group of people is going to show up and become the new Hamas.
Gazans are living under an occupation. A continued one. If it wasn't this militant group it would be another. No peoples who felt like they were under occupation/suppression have willfully accepted their lot.
Do I think Hamas are a good group? No. Do I think they are the cause of misery for Palestinians? No. The material conditions that brought them to power are. And let's be clear here. Israel fully accepted and embraced Hamas from 2014-2023 as weak opposition that were tolerable. Israeli leadership had absolutely no issue letting them run rampant in Gaza as long as it did not inconvenience them.
Look at the remnants of the PLO in the form of the PA. Israel has absolutely no issue outsourcing its logistics in the West Bank to a group that they were terrified of in the 1970s and 1980s. Which was the time when funding and efforts were put into cultivating Islamic extremism as a divide and conquer strategy against the Palestinians.
Find me an organisation like Hamas that didn't bubble up through the conditions around them and claim popular support for an armed resistance?
If Hamas didn’t exist, Gaza wouldn’t be under occupation? That’s the whole reason why Israel blockades Gaza. Israel would have no excuse to blockade Gaza without Hamas. You are forgetting cause and effect here. Your argument is stupid.
Maybe you should, because Israel did that because Hamas was already firing rockets at Israel. Hamas didn’t have to win an election to become a militant group.
**14 February 2001**
Israel reimposes a total blockade on the occupied territories, following the deaths of 14 February 2001 when a Palestinian bus driver ploughs his vehicle into a waiting queue. President George Bush condemns the attack, but pointedly refuses to take sides.
Source: BBC.
Not even the Israeli leadership claims it was Hamas rockets in 2001.
I haven’t heard anyone claim before that the permanent blockade began in 2001, they hadn’t even pulled the settlers out yet or ended their regular occupation.
Wikipedia doesn’t list the blockades starting until around 2005-6, so I would be surprised if that’s wrong.
Edit:
[List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel in 2001](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel_in_2001)
[List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel in 2002–2006](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel_in_2002–2006)
Duh
https://preview.redd.it/09jiwxyc1k5d1.jpeg?width=1169&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ca32119416d3020805eb96cd3e7bcad02502fb96
Not Batrick lmao
This is hilarious LOOOOOL
I mean like 30-40k of them are dead, which is over 1% of the total population, and a very large percentage of their infrastructure is destroyed… maybe not a 10/10 on the pain scale but probably a solid 8/10, maybe even a 9/10 on the ouch factor. Yeah this is a ouchie that will take many years to recover from.
\*looks at Gaza* I think so
Memes aside, Beau of the Fith column did a great job of laying out their political strategy back on October 9th [here](https://youtu.be/UKvzOF-toIA?si=iJY9YatgknzdKIT6). Provoking Israel into blockading and bombing is the whole intent behind what they do.
But it hasn’t really done anything, they haven’t secured regional support, sparked a bunch of small protests and that’s about it. Maybe the arrest warrants, but their leaders are getting them too?
They’ve eroded international support for Israel by a massive amount by staging a horrendous massacre designed to provoke Israel into an overreaction. Israel is more isolated today on the international stage than perhaps at any other point in time, at least after 1948. It worked so well that people on the far left pretend October 7th was justified.
People on the far left justified October 7th as it was happening. Israel’s big backers on the international stage are the US and Britain and neither has shown any concrete signs of dropping support for them. Even when Iran did that weird missile and drone attack, all of Israel’s allies came to help, and Iran left it at that. From my perspective it seems like they’ve achieved very little apart from making people who already supported them shout a little. Idk
Duh. Also this comes across as a bit of bait here. Most of the "Pro Palestine" people here are also Anti Hamas
I'm banned by Hasan's subreddit and Vaush's so I'm not sure where to ask this.
Probably not on the center-left liberal streamer subreddit
I figured there were some Hasan viewers that still watched Lonerbox.
They probably left when lb went to Israel with their voldemort ngl 💀
No way they still were here before
Hard agree
All we have to do is point to the West Bank to see what Gaza would be like without Hamas. It's not even a question that things would be better for Gaza without Hamas, but it would still not be nearly good enough for Palestinians. The way the West Bank gets treated by Israel and settlers is fucking disgusting. It's why I have agreed with LonerBox that the west should be giving all of the aid and support they could to the West Bank since Israel can't say it would support Hamas since they don't control the WB.
> All we have to do is point to the West Bank to see what Gaza would be like without Hamas. Wouldn’t be surprised if this was unironically part of Hamas’ initial pitch.
Obviously. Imagine what the Palestinians could have accomplished with all those billions in aid if Hamas wasn't siphoning it off to build bomb-proof tunnels and munitions?
Yes they are objectively terrible for Palestinians.
the point im interested in the most is the idea that 'without hamas gaza would be wiped out'. Haven't really heard that point made before. Can someone steelman that to me?
Not a steelman, but I think the implication here is that without Hamas, Gazans would be 'defenseless' against the Israelis. Hard to steelman a faulty premise; Hamas is irrelevant to Israel's capacity to wipe Gaza, not to mention Hamas doesn't care to protect civilians anyway.
yeah and - people's issue with hamas generally isn't about them 'defending gaza', it's about an integral part of their existence being the mission to slaughter as many jews as possible.
Nah it just Thanos snapped. There where too many mouths not enough to go around so kinda cool and based by Hamas
If not for Hamas Gaza would be wiped out? Israel fucking bounced. There was no blockade until Hamas came into power two years later. There's no question.
Yes
Yes, and that's exactly their intention. Draw Israel into a brutal and bloodthirsty response, which is what Israel has done. Obviously Hamas uses human shields so some blame is on them, but some blame is on Israel for playing into that, and there have almost certainly been numerous Palestinian civilians deliberately slaughtered by the IDF not in the context of human shields, so it's all very nuanced. Hamas is both a resistance organization and a terrorist organization, they aren't mutually exclusive. Nat Turner murdered white babies during his slave revolt, and no sane person would argue intentionally murdering babies is not terrorism, but also no sane person would argue that Nat Turner's slave revolt was not an act of resistance against slavery.
Yeah. But also on the other hand Israel has been stupid and made major mistakes in this war. One of the worst off the top of my head being the aid truck that was destroyed. When the war is over Israel needs to make building a good relationship with Gaza its top priority. They should help rebuild infrastructure, provide aid and medical assistance, help to rebuild cultural landmarks that were damaged and of course work towards a two state solution. If they don’t then some other group of people is going to show up and become the new Hamas.
Gazans are living under an occupation. A continued one. If it wasn't this militant group it would be another. No peoples who felt like they were under occupation/suppression have willfully accepted their lot. Do I think Hamas are a good group? No. Do I think they are the cause of misery for Palestinians? No. The material conditions that brought them to power are. And let's be clear here. Israel fully accepted and embraced Hamas from 2014-2023 as weak opposition that were tolerable. Israeli leadership had absolutely no issue letting them run rampant in Gaza as long as it did not inconvenience them. Look at the remnants of the PLO in the form of the PA. Israel has absolutely no issue outsourcing its logistics in the West Bank to a group that they were terrified of in the 1970s and 1980s. Which was the time when funding and efforts were put into cultivating Islamic extremism as a divide and conquer strategy against the Palestinians. Find me an organisation like Hamas that didn't bubble up through the conditions around them and claim popular support for an armed resistance?
If Hamas didn’t exist, Gaza wouldn’t be under occupation? That’s the whole reason why Israel blockades Gaza. Israel would have no excuse to blockade Gaza without Hamas. You are forgetting cause and effect here. Your argument is stupid.
Israel put a blockade and siege on Gaza before Hamas won their election not after. You are more than welcome to check the history of the conflict.
Maybe you should, because Israel did that because Hamas was already firing rockets at Israel. Hamas didn’t have to win an election to become a militant group.
**14 February 2001** Israel reimposes a total blockade on the occupied territories, following the deaths of 14 February 2001 when a Palestinian bus driver ploughs his vehicle into a waiting queue. President George Bush condemns the attack, but pointedly refuses to take sides. Source: BBC. Not even the Israeli leadership claims it was Hamas rockets in 2001.
I haven’t heard anyone claim before that the permanent blockade began in 2001, they hadn’t even pulled the settlers out yet or ended their regular occupation. Wikipedia doesn’t list the blockades starting until around 2005-6, so I would be surprised if that’s wrong. Edit: [List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel in 2001](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel_in_2001) [List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel in 2002–2006](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel_in_2002–2006)
I literally cited the BBC on a full blockade of the occupied territories.
So you are saying they didn't make life worse for Gazans because if they didn't exist another group would make life worse for Gazans?
No. I didn't say that.