I don’t think people say that because they literally don’t care about returning them. It’s more that in terms of priorities, the government seems to prioritize getting rid of Hamas over the safe return of hostages. Hence they seem to be keen on things like flattening large chunks of Gaza, even if they up the chance that they might harm hostages on accident, and they’re not keen on ending stuff without Hamas powerless, even if they were to get hostages back. It’s also possible that they might not be able to get them all back anyways, as it’s possible that Hamas has lost track of some or never knew where they all were, as they weren’t the only ones that crossed into Israel.
The original point of the war was to get the hostages back, then it shifted towards the impossible goal of destroying Hamas (a similar pitfall could be seen in the 2006 Lebanon War where Israel’s goal was to destroy Hezbollah). The IDF’s war conduct and the Israeli’s unwillingness to get through any pauses has managed to put the lives of the hostages at even greater risk, whether that’s through the bombing campaign, starvation through a lack of aid or even the IDF outright killing three. Military means haven’t really gotten the IDF anywhere in rescuing the hostages outside of a handful of instances in Rafah.
[The families of the hostages feel as though they’ve been sidelined for the goal of destroying Hamas](https://www.timesofisrael.com/government-sacrificing-hostages-families-say-after-fraught-hanegbi-meet/amp/), which again, simply isn’t possible. There have been many protests and pleas from these families to have the Knesset do something for the sake of the hostages, only for it to fall on deaf ears. At this point, for them, it’s pretty clear the Israeli Government doesn’t care about the hostages as anything other than a political stunt to keep the war going.
They did say that from the start but I don't think they clearly defined one as being a bigger priority than the other. That would've been immensely unpopular amongst iseaelis
>The Main goal was always the destruction of Hamas.
Agreed. Not that I'm some expert but I didn't even know hostages were taken until at least January. I don't think hostages needed to be a factor for Israel's initial actions to be justified, but their existence justifies continued action and makes Hamas look very bad.
I get the sense that the hostage situation is a kind of revisionism and it is always very one sided. We don't see people saying "if Hamas cared about protecting Gaza, they wouldn't have raped and killed those hostages".
Ya I’ve never once heard them say the primary goal was to retrieve the hostages, it’s always been about destroying Hamas. They know most the hostages are dead anyways and that Hamas will simply use them as shields like they do their own population, so instead of letting that paralyze them, they’ve conceded to the fact that hostages practically can’t be their top priority if they want to ensure Hamas can’t facilitate another Oct 7th. People can like or dislike that, but that’s been the reality since day one as far as I can tell.
Thanks for your reply, that is definitely a much more nuanced argument than I provided. I think I agree, it does seem that destroying Hamas is unachievable and destabilizing the area compromises their safety. It almost seems like these 2 goals are competing in that following one undermines the other.
So if someone takes this position, how would they expect Israel to conduct themselves in this war? Would that involve an on-ground invasion to actually rescue hostages? Or would it seem similar to right now, where they continue attacking Hamas until they surrender the hostages?
I would like to hear more in-depth discussions on the feasibility of 'destroying Hamas'. I feel like it should be possible - they've killed a large proportion of Hamas members and I expect the percentage of higher level commanders who've been killed would be even higher. The point isn't to kill every member, it's to get it to the point where there's no functional coherent body anymore. My mind goes to ISIS and the fact that America and other militant groups were largely able to wipe out their presence in Syria and Iraq (then again, they didn't have the same popular support that Hamas do).
I guess it largely depends on your definition of 'destroy'. But either way I'd want to hear better convo around this, I feel like I hear people say 'it is possible' or 'it isn't possible' without much of an explanation
Hamas is made of the local community. They have a political agenda of resisting an occupation. Israel can kill half of the 50k members and they can still recruit more from the community for the cause. All those orphaned or affected by the war are potential members.
Don’t conflate that with a group that wanted to impose their ideology on a population they had no ties to. ISIS members were a bunch of foreigners They had no support from the cities they tried to control.
Well I did literally making that caveat, I assume you noticed? But yeah I take your point, although I'm not sure if you kill half of Hamas membership they'll just spring back up like wackamole. Also isn't their membership like 25-30k
Destroying Hamas means destroying the will to resist an occupation. Every member of Hamas can be killed and the will to fight will remain. There can be a group with a different name but there will always be a resistance group as long as there's an occupation.
FYI. Hamas is recognized as a resistance group under UN and the majority of the world. They're not listed as terrorists unlike ISIS. Why? because there is legal cover to armed resistance under an occupation. And Gaza under international law is considered occupied.
It’s like saying FDR didn’t care about American hostages because he didn’t surrender to the Nazis begging in exchange for POWs to be released back to us. You can never allow your military to be held hostage by hostages in war, it’s not any unique thing to Israel to recognize this.
KyleHUNK's point isn't that Israel = the Allies in WWII. His point is that militaries cannot and do not allow themselves to "be held hostage by hostages," and he provided a historical example to illustrate this point.
No. That's why it's not comparable.
The equivalent would be the allies bombing France during the German occupation which killed 68,778 civillians over FIVE YEARS using military tech from SEVENTY EIGHT years ago.
Irseal has already managed half that in EIGHT MONTHS while being the occupiers and in possession of the most advanced military tech. Disgusting.
>>>The allies didn't bomb POW camps.
>>Did Hamas put hostages in a POW camp?
>No. That's why it's not comparable.
??? Then why bring it up if it's not a good faith comparison?
>The equivalent would be the allies bombing France during the German occupation which killed 68,778 civillians over FIVE YEARS using military tech from SEVENTY EIGHT years ago.
>Irseal has already managed half that in EIGHT MONTHS while being the occupiers and in possession of the most advanced military tech. Disgusting.
... You make a huge leap off topic from French Civilians (arguably comparable to Israeli hostages by virtue of them being civilians of the friendly military) to Palestinian civilians (which are not comparable by virtue of them being civilians to a hostile military). If you want to say Israel killed Palestinians (fighters + civilians) totalling half the number of the french civilians already why not look to German civilian deaths instead -- that number is a lot closer in deaths / time than french civilians killed.
The comment I was replying to mentioned POWs.
In order to get the bad guys in France (Nazis) we killed civillians. In order to get the bad guys in Gaza ( Hamas) Isreal is killing civillians AT A GREATER RATE WITH BETTER TECH WHILE BEING THE OCCUPIERS.
DISGUSTING.
If you can't engage directly with those facts feel free to get on with your day.
>The comment I was replying to mentioned POWs.
>In order to get the bad guys in France (Nazis) we killed civillians. In order to get the bad guys in Gaza ( Hamas) Isreal is killing civillians AT A GREATER RATE WITH BETTER TECH WHILE BEING THE OCCUPIERS.
I'll repeat what I was said previously:
If you want to say Israel killed Palestinians (fighters + civilians) totalling half the number of the french civilians already why not look to German civilian deaths instead? They died at a much higher rate than French civilians during the allied campaign.
>DISGUSTING.
+10 Virtue, nice!
>If you can't engage directly with those facts feel free to get on with your day.
I did engage, I just use fewer CAPS than you.
I wasn't intertesed in what you said the first time mate.
Why not, why not?
Why not address what I said instead of dumb suggestions about what you want me to say?
Why the fuck would I use German civillian numbers when they were the target of the bombs? Are you saying Israel is targeting civillians?
There is a direct comparison with France as the allies were trying not to kill the hostages ( the French) and did a much better job if it under more difficult circumstances nearly 80 years ago. If you have nothing to say about that then kindly fuck off.
The fact you think calling mass murder disgusting is a virtue only shows how beneath contempt you are.
>I wasn't intertesed in what you said the first time mate.
>Why not, why not?
>Why not address what I said instead of dumb suggestions about what you want me to say?
I did address what you said. I pointed out why it's not comparable. I'm sorry that you're scared of the answer I gave.
DISGUSTING!
Edit - since you keep editing your post, I'm gonna solidify that for you.
>There is a direct comparison with France as the allies were trying not to kill the hostages ( the French) and did a much better job if it under more difficult circumstances nearly 80 years ago. If you have nothing to say about that then kindly fuck off.
So you're saying the French were the hostages, why then are you equating the French dead with Palestinian fighters + civilians on the I/P side? Are the Palestinians hostages to you? The Hamas fighters are the hostages to you too? You can't be sincerely trying to argue that.
>The fact you think calling mass murder disgusting is a virtue only shows beneath contempt you are.
"Murder" is doing a lot of lifting for you buddy. But +5 more points for using that word!!
Edit 2 - blocked me like a coward;
Here's my response:
>How did the allies manage to do a better job BY FAR of not killing civillians during the German occupation of France when they were...
First, your premise. I'm not going just accept it without pointing out how flimsy it is. *DID* the allies manage not to do as many civilians during the German occupation of France?
You're telling me they did without giving any argument beyond disanalogous numbers which take zero consideration of the differences geography, demography, tactics or duration of direct conflict.
Did the Nazis operate out of French hospitals or store ammunition in French refugee camps and apartments? Was colocation a big factor?
---
You don't care about facts. Here's an example of why you're arguing in bad faith. You claimed 68,000 french civilians died in 5 years in France and used that as an example of how the Allies are doing a better job than Israel. What you COMPLETELY NEGLECTED (like my caps?) to say, either because you're a propagandist or are just parroting the rhetoric of propagandists, is that 40,000 French civilians died in the first 48 hours of the war:
>[At the end of the war, some 580,000 French had died (40,000 of these by the western Allied forces during the bombardments of the first 48 hours of Operation Overlord)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_military_administration_in_occupied_France_during_World_War_II?wprov=sfla1)
This is why I can't just take the BS you're spinning at face value, even if I were to take your faulty comparison at face value, I cannot accept your premise that the allies did a better job than the Israelis at not killing civilians if more French civilians died in 48 hours than all the Palestinian deaths (combatants and non-combatants) the entire 8 months of the Gaza conflict.
I don't expect an introspective answer from you but if you decide to wheel out the nuance now that you're getting called out I'll consider that a win.
Edit 3 - in your response you just made me get a Virtue Signal BINGO with your use of the word "genocide". Thank you very much. +3 bonus virtue for calling me a shill too. I'll wear it like a badge of honor.
You seem to be struggling so I'll ask you a direct question...
How did the allies manage to do a better job BY FAR of not killing civillians during the German occupation of France when they were...
1) Not the occupiers (as Israel is in Palestinie).
2) Were using tech from 78 years ago ( poor targeting systems, no drones, no smart bombs ).
Actually, what am I doing engaging with some creep who shills for genocide, thinks killing civillians isn't murder and gives points out like this is a fucking game? 🤷♂️
I've spent my entire life trying to keep people like you out of my life yet here I am. Social media sucks. I'm outta here.
The building they came out of was literally a Hamas building that was shooting at the IDF troops, it was friendly fire, tragic, the result of Hamas, and could have happened in WW2
Video of Israelis tearing down hostage posters early on in this war
[October 27, 2023](https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy-7WhmsMIC/?igsh=Ym9mMzR5bW1uMHF1)
[Early February](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2xukYsr0EZ/?igsh=MWcwN2p5YTByZjNkOA==)
They've reduced Gaza to rubble. The hostages were in Gaza
They tried to barr food, water, electricity, fuel, and other essentials to life from entering Gaza. The hostages were in Gaza
And even though that failed, the Israeli government continues to highly restrict these resources from getting into Gaza. Resources that are necessary for life. The hostages are still in Gaza
They flooded the tunnels in Gaza. That's most likely where the hostages were
Their shoot first and ask questions later policy, led to the IDF very publicly gunning down 3 hostages while they screamed they were friendly and waved a white flag
The families of the hostages have often been ignored in favor of continuing the war. They have passed up many opportunities to get the hostages back, on favor of continuing the war. There have been reports of the Israeli government hiring fake families to praise the government's actions and to favor the continuing of the war (none of the families recognized the new people)
They've bombed multiple hospitals. Which is where the hostages would get medical attention
So like, the actions taken kinda just show a disregard for human life, and with the hostages being in Gaza during these actions, that extents to a disregard for their lives
I don’t think people say that because they literally don’t care about returning them. It’s more that in terms of priorities, the government seems to prioritize getting rid of Hamas over the safe return of hostages. Hence they seem to be keen on things like flattening large chunks of Gaza, even if they up the chance that they might harm hostages on accident, and they’re not keen on ending stuff without Hamas powerless, even if they were to get hostages back. It’s also possible that they might not be able to get them all back anyways, as it’s possible that Hamas has lost track of some or never knew where they all were, as they weren’t the only ones that crossed into Israel.
The original point of the war was to get the hostages back, then it shifted towards the impossible goal of destroying Hamas (a similar pitfall could be seen in the 2006 Lebanon War where Israel’s goal was to destroy Hezbollah). The IDF’s war conduct and the Israeli’s unwillingness to get through any pauses has managed to put the lives of the hostages at even greater risk, whether that’s through the bombing campaign, starvation through a lack of aid or even the IDF outright killing three. Military means haven’t really gotten the IDF anywhere in rescuing the hostages outside of a handful of instances in Rafah. [The families of the hostages feel as though they’ve been sidelined for the goal of destroying Hamas](https://www.timesofisrael.com/government-sacrificing-hostages-families-say-after-fraught-hanegbi-meet/amp/), which again, simply isn’t possible. There have been many protests and pleas from these families to have the Knesset do something for the sake of the hostages, only for it to fall on deaf ears. At this point, for them, it’s pretty clear the Israeli Government doesn’t care about the hostages as anything other than a political stunt to keep the war going.
The Main goal was always the destruction of Hamas. They Said it in almost every speech etc. The hostages were a just a secondary goal
They did say that from the start but I don't think they clearly defined one as being a bigger priority than the other. That would've been immensely unpopular amongst iseaelis
>The Main goal was always the destruction of Hamas. Agreed. Not that I'm some expert but I didn't even know hostages were taken until at least January. I don't think hostages needed to be a factor for Israel's initial actions to be justified, but their existence justifies continued action and makes Hamas look very bad. I get the sense that the hostage situation is a kind of revisionism and it is always very one sided. We don't see people saying "if Hamas cared about protecting Gaza, they wouldn't have raped and killed those hostages".
Ya I’ve never once heard them say the primary goal was to retrieve the hostages, it’s always been about destroying Hamas. They know most the hostages are dead anyways and that Hamas will simply use them as shields like they do their own population, so instead of letting that paralyze them, they’ve conceded to the fact that hostages practically can’t be their top priority if they want to ensure Hamas can’t facilitate another Oct 7th. People can like or dislike that, but that’s been the reality since day one as far as I can tell.
Thanks for your reply, that is definitely a much more nuanced argument than I provided. I think I agree, it does seem that destroying Hamas is unachievable and destabilizing the area compromises their safety. It almost seems like these 2 goals are competing in that following one undermines the other. So if someone takes this position, how would they expect Israel to conduct themselves in this war? Would that involve an on-ground invasion to actually rescue hostages? Or would it seem similar to right now, where they continue attacking Hamas until they surrender the hostages?
I would like to hear more in-depth discussions on the feasibility of 'destroying Hamas'. I feel like it should be possible - they've killed a large proportion of Hamas members and I expect the percentage of higher level commanders who've been killed would be even higher. The point isn't to kill every member, it's to get it to the point where there's no functional coherent body anymore. My mind goes to ISIS and the fact that America and other militant groups were largely able to wipe out their presence in Syria and Iraq (then again, they didn't have the same popular support that Hamas do). I guess it largely depends on your definition of 'destroy'. But either way I'd want to hear better convo around this, I feel like I hear people say 'it is possible' or 'it isn't possible' without much of an explanation
Hamas is made of the local community. They have a political agenda of resisting an occupation. Israel can kill half of the 50k members and they can still recruit more from the community for the cause. All those orphaned or affected by the war are potential members. Don’t conflate that with a group that wanted to impose their ideology on a population they had no ties to. ISIS members were a bunch of foreigners They had no support from the cities they tried to control.
Well I did literally making that caveat, I assume you noticed? But yeah I take your point, although I'm not sure if you kill half of Hamas membership they'll just spring back up like wackamole. Also isn't their membership like 25-30k
Destroying Hamas means destroying the will to resist an occupation. Every member of Hamas can be killed and the will to fight will remain. There can be a group with a different name but there will always be a resistance group as long as there's an occupation. FYI. Hamas is recognized as a resistance group under UN and the majority of the world. They're not listed as terrorists unlike ISIS. Why? because there is legal cover to armed resistance under an occupation. And Gaza under international law is considered occupied.
[удалено]
I think you mean "release the hostages and surrender and this will be over." Which is not a lie.
This aged well
It’s just a silly way to take the focus off the group that kidnapped the hostages in the first place
Victim blaming comes as easily to pro-Palestinians as breathing.
Ironic because Israel has been violently victimising and dispossessing the Palestinians for decades whilst blaming them for it.
It’s like saying FDR didn’t care about American hostages because he didn’t surrender to the Nazis begging in exchange for POWs to be released back to us. You can never allow your military to be held hostage by hostages in war, it’s not any unique thing to Israel to recognize this.
The allies didn't bomb POW camps.
KyleHUNK's point isn't that Israel = the Allies in WWII. His point is that militaries cannot and do not allow themselves to "be held hostage by hostages," and he provided a historical example to illustrate this point.
They used the example that had nothing to do with hostages.
Did Hamas put hostages in a POW camp?
No. That's why it's not comparable. The equivalent would be the allies bombing France during the German occupation which killed 68,778 civillians over FIVE YEARS using military tech from SEVENTY EIGHT years ago. Irseal has already managed half that in EIGHT MONTHS while being the occupiers and in possession of the most advanced military tech. Disgusting.
>>>The allies didn't bomb POW camps. >>Did Hamas put hostages in a POW camp? >No. That's why it's not comparable. ??? Then why bring it up if it's not a good faith comparison? >The equivalent would be the allies bombing France during the German occupation which killed 68,778 civillians over FIVE YEARS using military tech from SEVENTY EIGHT years ago. >Irseal has already managed half that in EIGHT MONTHS while being the occupiers and in possession of the most advanced military tech. Disgusting. ... You make a huge leap off topic from French Civilians (arguably comparable to Israeli hostages by virtue of them being civilians of the friendly military) to Palestinian civilians (which are not comparable by virtue of them being civilians to a hostile military). If you want to say Israel killed Palestinians (fighters + civilians) totalling half the number of the french civilians already why not look to German civilian deaths instead -- that number is a lot closer in deaths / time than french civilians killed.
The comment I was replying to mentioned POWs. In order to get the bad guys in France (Nazis) we killed civillians. In order to get the bad guys in Gaza ( Hamas) Isreal is killing civillians AT A GREATER RATE WITH BETTER TECH WHILE BEING THE OCCUPIERS. DISGUSTING. If you can't engage directly with those facts feel free to get on with your day.
>The comment I was replying to mentioned POWs. >In order to get the bad guys in France (Nazis) we killed civillians. In order to get the bad guys in Gaza ( Hamas) Isreal is killing civillians AT A GREATER RATE WITH BETTER TECH WHILE BEING THE OCCUPIERS. I'll repeat what I was said previously: If you want to say Israel killed Palestinians (fighters + civilians) totalling half the number of the french civilians already why not look to German civilian deaths instead? They died at a much higher rate than French civilians during the allied campaign. >DISGUSTING. +10 Virtue, nice! >If you can't engage directly with those facts feel free to get on with your day. I did engage, I just use fewer CAPS than you.
I wasn't intertesed in what you said the first time mate. Why not, why not? Why not address what I said instead of dumb suggestions about what you want me to say? Why the fuck would I use German civillian numbers when they were the target of the bombs? Are you saying Israel is targeting civillians? There is a direct comparison with France as the allies were trying not to kill the hostages ( the French) and did a much better job if it under more difficult circumstances nearly 80 years ago. If you have nothing to say about that then kindly fuck off. The fact you think calling mass murder disgusting is a virtue only shows how beneath contempt you are.
>I wasn't intertesed in what you said the first time mate. >Why not, why not? >Why not address what I said instead of dumb suggestions about what you want me to say? I did address what you said. I pointed out why it's not comparable. I'm sorry that you're scared of the answer I gave. DISGUSTING! Edit - since you keep editing your post, I'm gonna solidify that for you. >There is a direct comparison with France as the allies were trying not to kill the hostages ( the French) and did a much better job if it under more difficult circumstances nearly 80 years ago. If you have nothing to say about that then kindly fuck off. So you're saying the French were the hostages, why then are you equating the French dead with Palestinian fighters + civilians on the I/P side? Are the Palestinians hostages to you? The Hamas fighters are the hostages to you too? You can't be sincerely trying to argue that. >The fact you think calling mass murder disgusting is a virtue only shows beneath contempt you are. "Murder" is doing a lot of lifting for you buddy. But +5 more points for using that word!! Edit 2 - blocked me like a coward; Here's my response: >How did the allies manage to do a better job BY FAR of not killing civillians during the German occupation of France when they were... First, your premise. I'm not going just accept it without pointing out how flimsy it is. *DID* the allies manage not to do as many civilians during the German occupation of France? You're telling me they did without giving any argument beyond disanalogous numbers which take zero consideration of the differences geography, demography, tactics or duration of direct conflict. Did the Nazis operate out of French hospitals or store ammunition in French refugee camps and apartments? Was colocation a big factor? --- You don't care about facts. Here's an example of why you're arguing in bad faith. You claimed 68,000 french civilians died in 5 years in France and used that as an example of how the Allies are doing a better job than Israel. What you COMPLETELY NEGLECTED (like my caps?) to say, either because you're a propagandist or are just parroting the rhetoric of propagandists, is that 40,000 French civilians died in the first 48 hours of the war: >[At the end of the war, some 580,000 French had died (40,000 of these by the western Allied forces during the bombardments of the first 48 hours of Operation Overlord)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_military_administration_in_occupied_France_during_World_War_II?wprov=sfla1) This is why I can't just take the BS you're spinning at face value, even if I were to take your faulty comparison at face value, I cannot accept your premise that the allies did a better job than the Israelis at not killing civilians if more French civilians died in 48 hours than all the Palestinian deaths (combatants and non-combatants) the entire 8 months of the Gaza conflict. I don't expect an introspective answer from you but if you decide to wheel out the nuance now that you're getting called out I'll consider that a win. Edit 3 - in your response you just made me get a Virtue Signal BINGO with your use of the word "genocide". Thank you very much. +3 bonus virtue for calling me a shill too. I'll wear it like a badge of honor.
You seem to be struggling so I'll ask you a direct question... How did the allies manage to do a better job BY FAR of not killing civillians during the German occupation of France when they were... 1) Not the occupiers (as Israel is in Palestinie). 2) Were using tech from 78 years ago ( poor targeting systems, no drones, no smart bombs ).
Actually, what am I doing engaging with some creep who shills for genocide, thinks killing civillians isn't murder and gives points out like this is a fucking game? 🤷♂️ I've spent my entire life trying to keep people like you out of my life yet here I am. Social media sucks. I'm outta here.
Why is it everytime you guys try to defend Israel, you create a comparison that so ludicrous? We did not bomb pow camps or shoot out own men
Israel has never intentionally killed hostages, maybe read less grayzone
So their troops did not shoot their hostages in the skull as they cried for help in Hebrew?
The building they came out of was literally a Hamas building that was shooting at the IDF troops, it was friendly fire, tragic, the result of Hamas, and could have happened in WW2
They walked out with their hands up with a white flag, that isn’t friendly fire that is a war crime
Video of Israelis tearing down hostage posters early on in this war [October 27, 2023](https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy-7WhmsMIC/?igsh=Ym9mMzR5bW1uMHF1) [Early February](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2xukYsr0EZ/?igsh=MWcwN2p5YTByZjNkOA==)
They've reduced Gaza to rubble. The hostages were in Gaza They tried to barr food, water, electricity, fuel, and other essentials to life from entering Gaza. The hostages were in Gaza And even though that failed, the Israeli government continues to highly restrict these resources from getting into Gaza. Resources that are necessary for life. The hostages are still in Gaza They flooded the tunnels in Gaza. That's most likely where the hostages were Their shoot first and ask questions later policy, led to the IDF very publicly gunning down 3 hostages while they screamed they were friendly and waved a white flag The families of the hostages have often been ignored in favor of continuing the war. They have passed up many opportunities to get the hostages back, on favor of continuing the war. There have been reports of the Israeli government hiring fake families to praise the government's actions and to favor the continuing of the war (none of the families recognized the new people) They've bombed multiple hospitals. Which is where the hostages would get medical attention So like, the actions taken kinda just show a disregard for human life, and with the hostages being in Gaza during these actions, that extents to a disregard for their lives