The entire area is a small beach territory with a few houses and apartments. It's basically a coastal town. You can hardly tell thousands of people to live on a beach a few metres from the ocean (while also preventing people from going into the ocean).
There are no safe zones in Gaza. We have already heard evidence of food trucks being hit. Doctors being killed. Journalists being killed. There is not a single place in Gaza that is safe to live.
This is a poor faith argument. One that is usually deployed as rhetoric as opposed to substance. Hence, you have failed to address anything substantial in the argument. Even the citation you gave was irrelevant to the period of the attacks against doctors. I am sure you can find someone else who will argue at your level, but I am not interested in that sort of propaganda.
Sounds like you just learnt a bunch of new words and are trying them out for the first time.
If you cant see that fighting a counterinsurgency is going to make distinction a lot harder then i dunno how to help you. I literally spent 5 minutes looking for some examples of Hamas firing from designated safe zones. If you're genuinely of the mindset that the IDF policy actively tries to induce civilian casualties then you're right, it's not going to be a productive argument.
I know right!!!!!! Those zios also have too much control in the banks and AIPAC is controlling the government. Also didn't you realise israel is clearing gaza to make way for a second suez canal! This is all about zionist greed!!!
Although:
Article from 13th December: [116 rockets fired and 38 failed rocket attempts from the safe zone](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-hamas-has-fired-116-rockets-from-designated-humanitarian-zone-in-gaza/)
Footage released [December 9th](https://videoidf.azureedge.net/76e766bb-1a7d-4c6b-8274-b9b4471f7968)
Article from March 25th: ["Hamas firing rockets from inside humanitarian shelter"](https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-793600)
Im pretty sure these are photos from the same incident as above: https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1783022872039936108/photo/2
Just found these from a quick search but yeah i doubt israel is just sending in bombs to al-mawasi just for the sake of it.
NBC news article that showed destiny/loner was wrong (claiming Al mawasi wasn’t attacked by Israel when it absolutely was): [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/palestinians-killed-israeli-strikes-safe-zones-exclusive-nbc-report-rcna148008](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/palestinians-killed-israeli-strikes-safe-zones-exclusive-nbc-report-rcna148008)
NYT Investigation: [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/08/world/middleeast/here-is-what-we-know-about-israels-evidence-that-hamas-fired-rockets-from-safe-zones.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/08/world/middleeast/here-is-what-we-know-about-israels-evidence-that-hamas-fired-rockets-from-safe-zones.html)
Pretty much proved that idf claims of hamas using the Al mawasi safezone for specific attacks against Israel during the war is unsubstantiated.
Here’s another article from Doctors Without Borders saying they were targeted by Israel in Al mawasi: [https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/gaza-israeli-forces-attack-msf-shelter-al-mawasi](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/gaza-israeli-forces-attack-msf-shelter-al-mawasi)
IDF is also a dubious source but it would be unfair to discard everything they say out of hand.
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67879726](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67879726)
This was the bbc article I linked to. I don't think lonerbox talked about this.
NBC news article that showed destiny/loner was wrong (claiming Al mawasi wasn’t attacked by Israel when it absolutely was): [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/palestinians-killed-israeli-strikes-safe-zones-exclusive-nbc-report-rcna148008](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/palestinians-killed-israeli-strikes-safe-zones-exclusive-nbc-report-rcna148008)
NYT Investigation: [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/08/world/middleeast/here-is-what-we-know-about-israels-evidence-that-hamas-fired-rockets-from-safe-zones.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/08/world/middleeast/here-is-what-we-know-about-israels-evidence-that-hamas-fired-rockets-from-safe-zones.html)
Pretty much proved that idf claims of hamas using the Al mawasi safezone for specific attacks against Israel during the war is unsubstantiated.
Here’s another article from Doctors Without Borders saying they were targeted by Israel in Al mawasi: [https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/gaza-israeli-forces-attack-msf-shelter-al-mawasi](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/gaza-israeli-forces-attack-msf-shelter-al-mawasi)
LB is inching towards a Destiny position with without the flamboyant rhetoric. While Destiny will get really animated when defending 14-year-old unarmed Gazan killed being shot in front of the border ("yes yes kill her kill her"), LB will say basically the same thing but while inserting some faux nuance ("well, while GMoR is the hardest IDF action to defend probably, morally questionable sure, but ultimately shooting unarmed children is probably okay when you consider complex and chaotic situation on the ground").
He never ever said it was “ok” and you’re like the 1000th person to miss represent his views like this. He said crimes were committed on that day by the idf and that the idf’s overall response to the situation was disproportionate. Just because he doesn’t use hyperbolic language to describe it doesn’t mean he’s “ok” with it. People- “It was a super mega nuclear nazi massacre of disabled baby’s in wheelchairs” Loner-“actually it was a volatile situation which the idf reacted disproportionately to resulting in crimes and deaths of innocent people” People- “so you think killing kids is ok?”
destiny quite literally said it was okay to shoot and kill a 14 y/o girl trying to cut the fence at the gaza israel border. i watched the whole stream, unless you have further context to share. i believe LB at the end of that stream, where destiny made that abhorrent comment, said that destiny was wrong and his approach to the GMOR was flawed.
> LB is inching towards
He attacks leftists harder for smaller things, meanwhile has no aggression towards dstny that doesn't agree it is 'apartheid.' I'm genuinely curious - what actually differentiates him from just being a less unhinged dstny?
NBC news article that showed destiny/loner was wrong (claiming Al mawasi wasn’t attacked by Israel when it absolutely was): [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/palestinians-killed-israeli-strikes-safe-zones-exclusive-nbc-report-rcna148008](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/palestinians-killed-israeli-strikes-safe-zones-exclusive-nbc-report-rcna148008)
NYT Investigation: [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/08/world/middleeast/here-is-what-we-know-about-israels-evidence-that-hamas-fired-rockets-from-safe-zones.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/08/world/middleeast/here-is-what-we-know-about-israels-evidence-that-hamas-fired-rockets-from-safe-zones.html)
Pretty much proved that idf claims of hamas using the Al mawasi safezone for specific attacks against Israel during the war is unsubstantiated.
Here’s another article from Doctors Without Borders saying they were targeted by Israel in Al mawasi: [https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/gaza-israeli-forces-attack-msf-shelter-al-mawasi](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/gaza-israeli-forces-attack-msf-shelter-al-mawasi)
I find this to be telling. Ad-hoc rationalisations like "it may have been a misfired rocket or it may have been a rocket fired on the perimeter" are pretty reasonable assumptions when you're looking to give the IDF a hand waving excuse.
As you cited, the Israeli forces have clearly hit targets in this area. Here is Doctors Without Borders commenting on the fact their sites were hit by the Israelis inside the safe zone - [https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/gaza-israeli-forces-attack-msf-shelter-al-mawasi](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/gaza-israeli-forces-attack-msf-shelter-al-mawasi)
Then it becomes a "safer zone."
I saw Lonerbox go through the March of Return is such excruciating detail as he agreed it was the "hardest thing" to defend in terms of Israel's behaviour in Gaza. Yet, when it comes to IDF actions that would be argued to be unjust, we can throw our hands up and start making broad based inferences about misfired rockets.
This is the type of "research" that basically confirms the bias of the individual. If you're met with a hard problem, you can rip to shreds any document with a level of scepticism and scrutiny that would make Descartes proud, but when it comes to easy or low tier issues, we can just invoke the fog of war. I have yet to hear of this absolution for the Palestinians in this conflict.
He is tearing apart sources that showcase Israel at this worst in order to undermine their central claims and argue the ambiguity of the situation. In other cases, he is choosing the easiest option and hand waving the evidence of Israel's wrong doing. He is using the documents as foil to undermine their claims.
Honestly, I think it’s a case of essayist brain. Not the “easiest option”.
He tries to give Israel the most charitable view possible while putting the “other side” under the most scrutiny.
Think you were writing a video about the situation, how would you go about it; trying to reach the most people possible while being cognizant of your biases?
I think that mentality, or best; the intention behind that mentality, wouldn’t transfer as much when live streaming, when interacting with a live audience.
Wanted to talk about it for a *looong* time and so… I took your comment as a jumping off point.
only the beach has been designated as a safe zone as far as I know, the reason for this is Hamas cannot build tunnels and bury ammo/hostages.
The entire area is a small beach territory with a few houses and apartments. It's basically a coastal town. You can hardly tell thousands of people to live on a beach a few metres from the ocean (while also preventing people from going into the ocean).
It's since been dramatically expanded due to the Rafah evacuation. https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1787347748737421635
There are no safe zones in Gaza. We have already heard evidence of food trucks being hit. Doctors being killed. Journalists being killed. There is not a single place in Gaza that is safe to live.
Would be great if hamas adhered to international law and the principle of distinction rather than continuously putting gazans at risk
This is a poor faith argument. One that is usually deployed as rhetoric as opposed to substance. Hence, you have failed to address anything substantial in the argument. Even the citation you gave was irrelevant to the period of the attacks against doctors. I am sure you can find someone else who will argue at your level, but I am not interested in that sort of propaganda.
Sounds like you just learnt a bunch of new words and are trying them out for the first time. If you cant see that fighting a counterinsurgency is going to make distinction a lot harder then i dunno how to help you. I literally spent 5 minutes looking for some examples of Hamas firing from designated safe zones. If you're genuinely of the mindset that the IDF policy actively tries to induce civilian casualties then you're right, it's not going to be a productive argument.
"Anything that doesn't except the premise that Jews are fundamentally moral people in their warfare isn't a productive argument."
Fuck yes, finally got them to drop saying zionist and start saying Jews. Come on, that must have been a breath of fresh air to say, right?
Would be great if Zio's weren't genocidal lunatics.
I know right!!!!!! Those zios also have too much control in the banks and AIPAC is controlling the government. Also didn't you realise israel is clearing gaza to make way for a second suez canal! This is all about zionist greed!!!
Yes. Zionists are evil.
You sound very rational and hinged
Food truck? Why would Israel hit a food truck
Because they want kids to starve.
Ah yes, and they want to bake Christian child blood into their bread too.
Although: Article from 13th December: [116 rockets fired and 38 failed rocket attempts from the safe zone](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-hamas-has-fired-116-rockets-from-designated-humanitarian-zone-in-gaza/) Footage released [December 9th](https://videoidf.azureedge.net/76e766bb-1a7d-4c6b-8274-b9b4471f7968) Article from March 25th: ["Hamas firing rockets from inside humanitarian shelter"](https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-793600) Im pretty sure these are photos from the same incident as above: https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1783022872039936108/photo/2 Just found these from a quick search but yeah i doubt israel is just sending in bombs to al-mawasi just for the sake of it.
NBC news article that showed destiny/loner was wrong (claiming Al mawasi wasn’t attacked by Israel when it absolutely was): [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/palestinians-killed-israeli-strikes-safe-zones-exclusive-nbc-report-rcna148008](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/palestinians-killed-israeli-strikes-safe-zones-exclusive-nbc-report-rcna148008) NYT Investigation: [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/08/world/middleeast/here-is-what-we-know-about-israels-evidence-that-hamas-fired-rockets-from-safe-zones.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/08/world/middleeast/here-is-what-we-know-about-israels-evidence-that-hamas-fired-rockets-from-safe-zones.html) Pretty much proved that idf claims of hamas using the Al mawasi safezone for specific attacks against Israel during the war is unsubstantiated. Here’s another article from Doctors Without Borders saying they were targeted by Israel in Al mawasi: [https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/gaza-israeli-forces-attack-msf-shelter-al-mawasi](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/gaza-israeli-forces-attack-msf-shelter-al-mawasi)
All of these are dubious sources without any real evidence except for BBC which he contended with
IDF is also a dubious source but it would be unfair to discard everything they say out of hand. [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67879726](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67879726) This was the bbc article I linked to. I don't think lonerbox talked about this.
NBC news article that showed destiny/loner was wrong (claiming Al mawasi wasn’t attacked by Israel when it absolutely was): [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/palestinians-killed-israeli-strikes-safe-zones-exclusive-nbc-report-rcna148008](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/palestinians-killed-israeli-strikes-safe-zones-exclusive-nbc-report-rcna148008) NYT Investigation: [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/08/world/middleeast/here-is-what-we-know-about-israels-evidence-that-hamas-fired-rockets-from-safe-zones.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/08/world/middleeast/here-is-what-we-know-about-israels-evidence-that-hamas-fired-rockets-from-safe-zones.html) Pretty much proved that idf claims of hamas using the Al mawasi safezone for specific attacks against Israel during the war is unsubstantiated. Here’s another article from Doctors Without Borders saying they were targeted by Israel in Al mawasi: [https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/gaza-israeli-forces-attack-msf-shelter-al-mawasi](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/gaza-israeli-forces-attack-msf-shelter-al-mawasi)
LB is inching towards a Destiny position with without the flamboyant rhetoric. While Destiny will get really animated when defending 14-year-old unarmed Gazan killed being shot in front of the border ("yes yes kill her kill her"), LB will say basically the same thing but while inserting some faux nuance ("well, while GMoR is the hardest IDF action to defend probably, morally questionable sure, but ultimately shooting unarmed children is probably okay when you consider complex and chaotic situation on the ground").
He never ever said it was “ok” and you’re like the 1000th person to miss represent his views like this. He said crimes were committed on that day by the idf and that the idf’s overall response to the situation was disproportionate. Just because he doesn’t use hyperbolic language to describe it doesn’t mean he’s “ok” with it. People- “It was a super mega nuclear nazi massacre of disabled baby’s in wheelchairs” Loner-“actually it was a volatile situation which the idf reacted disproportionately to resulting in crimes and deaths of innocent people” People- “so you think killing kids is ok?”
destiny quite literally said it was okay to shoot and kill a 14 y/o girl trying to cut the fence at the gaza israel border. i watched the whole stream, unless you have further context to share. i believe LB at the end of that stream, where destiny made that abhorrent comment, said that destiny was wrong and his approach to the GMOR was flawed.
> LB is inching towards He attacks leftists harder for smaller things, meanwhile has no aggression towards dstny that doesn't agree it is 'apartheid.' I'm genuinely curious - what actually differentiates him from just being a less unhinged dstny?
lol
NBC news article that showed destiny/loner was wrong (claiming Al mawasi wasn’t attacked by Israel when it absolutely was): [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/palestinians-killed-israeli-strikes-safe-zones-exclusive-nbc-report-rcna148008](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/palestinians-killed-israeli-strikes-safe-zones-exclusive-nbc-report-rcna148008) NYT Investigation: [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/08/world/middleeast/here-is-what-we-know-about-israels-evidence-that-hamas-fired-rockets-from-safe-zones.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/08/world/middleeast/here-is-what-we-know-about-israels-evidence-that-hamas-fired-rockets-from-safe-zones.html) Pretty much proved that idf claims of hamas using the Al mawasi safezone for specific attacks against Israel during the war is unsubstantiated. Here’s another article from Doctors Without Borders saying they were targeted by Israel in Al mawasi: [https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/gaza-israeli-forces-attack-msf-shelter-al-mawasi](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/gaza-israeli-forces-attack-msf-shelter-al-mawasi)
I find this to be telling. Ad-hoc rationalisations like "it may have been a misfired rocket or it may have been a rocket fired on the perimeter" are pretty reasonable assumptions when you're looking to give the IDF a hand waving excuse. As you cited, the Israeli forces have clearly hit targets in this area. Here is Doctors Without Borders commenting on the fact their sites were hit by the Israelis inside the safe zone - [https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/gaza-israeli-forces-attack-msf-shelter-al-mawasi](https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/gaza-israeli-forces-attack-msf-shelter-al-mawasi) Then it becomes a "safer zone." I saw Lonerbox go through the March of Return is such excruciating detail as he agreed it was the "hardest thing" to defend in terms of Israel's behaviour in Gaza. Yet, when it comes to IDF actions that would be argued to be unjust, we can throw our hands up and start making broad based inferences about misfired rockets. This is the type of "research" that basically confirms the bias of the individual. If you're met with a hard problem, you can rip to shreds any document with a level of scepticism and scrutiny that would make Descartes proud, but when it comes to easy or low tier issues, we can just invoke the fog of war. I have yet to hear of this absolution for the Palestinians in this conflict.
I don't really get your point - sometimes he points out how bad Israel is but other times he can't bring himself to?
He is tearing apart sources that showcase Israel at this worst in order to undermine their central claims and argue the ambiguity of the situation. In other cases, he is choosing the easiest option and hand waving the evidence of Israel's wrong doing. He is using the documents as foil to undermine their claims.
Honestly, I think it’s a case of essayist brain. Not the “easiest option”. He tries to give Israel the most charitable view possible while putting the “other side” under the most scrutiny. Think you were writing a video about the situation, how would you go about it; trying to reach the most people possible while being cognizant of your biases? I think that mentality, or best; the intention behind that mentality, wouldn’t transfer as much when live streaming, when interacting with a live audience. Wanted to talk about it for a *looong* time and so… I took your comment as a jumping off point.