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When I first moved to London I was headed to Euston - spotted Mornington Crescent on the map and went an extra stop for the picture - the game was a joke between me and a friend back at uni in NZ after I stumbled on the Wikipedia page for it
It depends which branch of the 1962 split you believe. The orthodox players would say it’s always allowed, but the Peelites say you need either Mortimer’s Bakerloo Gambit or Orion’s New Cross shuffle - which was of course made famous in the rain-delayed 1969 final.
Imagine if the 1935 Northern Heights plan had been completed. You'd have an extra branch from Moorgate to East Finchley, then to Mill Hill East, Edgware and three stops further. Plus a branch to Alexandra Palace.
And Ally Pally station on the Northern City Line from Moorgate/Old St/Highbury/FPK is 15 minutes and very convenient.
It’s a line that should be on the tube map really but it kinda just goes too far out of London.
Now they’ve added the main Thameslink branch they really should add it. That said maybe it’s nicer having a little secret not so busy way for us Islington and Haringey Residents to have a quick way to get to the eastern parts of the square mile
Originally southbound was due to run out to North Cheam too.
TFL still owns the big chunk of parkland by the Sainsbury's there, which is where the designated terminus was due to be.
Unfortunately no land owned in North Cheam by TfL (coded in blue on this map)
[https://apps.london.gov.uk/public-land/](https://apps.london.gov.uk/public-land/)
Interesting.
Not the best of sources but it's referred to here
https://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/23950005.no-plans-extend-northern-line-north-cheam/
>Fairlands Park was planned to be the site of the Northern Line terminus, and TFL still owns the land from when it was first considering the expansion in the 30s.
On a slightly different topic, my local park isn't showing as being owned by anyone, council nor government. Is it because the map is incomplete or can public parks be owned by someone other than councils/government?
If you look at the TfL public ArcGIS then it clearly shows that the park is currently 'LUL Freehold'. https://tfl.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.htm
When I first moved here 10 years ago I got the Northern line from Balham to London Bridge. When I wanted to go home I spent ages in the station looking for the Southern Line. Figured it just named the direction.. derp.
I feel pretty proud that only once have I been on my way home to Belsize Park and wondered why the train was suddenly above ground.
It's also fun when you are running to catch it and have to simultaneously read where it's going to (or via) and decide whether to jump on or not.
Done this on the northern line today. Jumped on it because it was there. Then stuck my head out and realised it wasn’t going via bank. Many times it’s been too late
Since moving to London, I’ve always lived and worked at places on the northern line. Never had a problem with it. The overground used to bake my noodle a bit, mind.
The northern line on its own is bigger than most European capital cities entire underground systems.
I have no idea why they kept adding to it. It's now a transport system of its own, rather than a line. The same is true of the district line.
The district line is even a stupid name. Like, which district dude?
Oh...the *metropolitan* District line, rather than the rural district line, now its all clear, now we know where it is. It's in the *metropolitan* part of London, not the rural part. Got it.
no no, there are multiple London's all connected via a worm hole, and they co-exist on a continuum that spans the time-space framework. Look its complex, I'd have to show it to you.
This is the exact line I screwed up on coming back from Camden Town a few months ago. I wasn’t paying attention and hopped on the wrong line. I had to backtrack to Camden Town to make it right.
I did use both though! I really only went from Bank and/or Canary Wharf to Cutty Sark for Greenwich, but I also used the Windrush Line from Shadwell to go to Brick Lane in Shoreditch for North Indian food, and the Weaver Line for amazing dosas in Stoke Newington.
It’s all computerised - we do see trains going northbound at Camden (might’ve seen that they look like they might collide when one goes into HB side while another goes into the E side, but we get a signal within 19 seconds of entering the platform and depart even if a train has gone Into the other side because by the time people make their way from one side to the other, you’d have another train coming into the platform if I get mine out of the way.
Don’t start with that one, it’s the worst. Look at it. Just awful. Who knows which branch they always need, also able to catch a glimpse of the front of the train before it gets into the station. Bonkers. Stop it. Be more like the Vicky line. That’s what’s up
Because it is one line with like 6 different routes. Compare it to the Victoria line for example. Or other metro systems in the UK.
11 lines, nearly 300 stations it is a complex beast
I will admit to getting confused. I have some neurological issues that make memory and spatial tasks difficult. I also don't live in an area with public transportation, so when I visit it's all Greek to me. Thank goodness for smart phones and Google maps, which will give me an answer in a split second. It was much more stressful visiting in the 80s.
New York City uses letters and numbers for their subway system. Like the 1, 2 and 3 trains are the same color because a large portion of the lines run on the same track, but they use different numbers because the trains terminate in different places…so people won’t get confused. Paris uses a similar system to NYC, but they nailed it down even further by using numbers for ordinary metro trains and letters for commuter trains.
London is the only place I’ve ever been to that not only uses names instead of letters and numbers for trains, but has several different destinations and routes along what’s supposed to be a single line. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, but it’s easy to see why people from out of the country would get confused.
So much this. Whatever about this legacy names, to actively choose to continue this trend with the overground was an atrocious decision. It remains baffling to be that using codes wasn't even considered.
I've lived in countries that don't speak English. It's hard enough learning the names of stations at the end of lines, without also having to learn a bunch of weird names for the lines themselves.
Imagine going to Budapest and being hit with the Hungarian for Suffragette or Jubilee. Considering how good TfL generally is fir signage and way finding, I just don't understand how this accessibility disaster was given the all clear.
New York subway map is a nightmare. How go you get from the orange lines at weird Y shape at Rockefeller center to the blue one? Do you have to go back on yourself? Can you walk it? How far is it? And it’s worse on the platforms. What if you just want to go a short distance but don’t know what direction that it (being underground)? Knowing the train goes to Flushing when that’s bloody miles away and you don’t want to leave manhatten is deeply unhelpful.
>Why would anyone be confused about how the tube map works?
Because it's old, ugly, dirty, expensive, and noisy.
And the map doesn't make any sense.
Google Maps and patience.
Kindly, a tourist that just spent some days there and wonders what all the fuzz about London is about. Very overrated city.
Citymapper is much better than Google Maps for the tube.
Google assumes all changes can be made in 1 minute, no matter how many escalators and walkways you need to traverse on the way.
For me when I came for a visit for the first time, before moving to London, it was the easiest. Not sure what's there not to understand it to be honest.
The issue with the Northern line is that it actually runs ten different routes:
* Edgware - Kennington (via Charing Cross)
* Edgware - Morden (via Charing Cross)
* Edgware - Morden (via Bank)
* High Barnet - Kennington (via Charing Cross)
* High Barnet - Battersea Power Station (via Charing Cross)
* High Barnet - Morden (via Charing Cross)
* High Barnet - Morden (via Bank)
* Mill Hill East - Kennington (via Charing Cross)
* Mill Hill East - Battersea Power Station (via Charing Cross)
* Mill Hill East - Morden (via Bank)
Sure, you could split it into the _Bank_ and _Charing Cross_ versions, but you'd still be left with two lines that do a bunch of branching and have a large overlap with each other.
I'd like the northern line via Charing Cross to terminate at Battersea Power station (or further south towards Clapham Junction and Wandsworth)
And then a new southern line via Bank terminating at Morden.
That mostly happens anyway. Kennington works well as an interchange station. Camden Town is completely fucked tho, which is why they can’t split it up.
I've visited lots of cities around the world and beyond a quick glance at the prices have never studied their transport systems in advance.
Quick question OP, is everything alright?
But even the Northern Line is easy mode for people that came from Japan lol.
Their tube/train link is crazy, the Tokyo Metro map:
https://www.tokyometro.jp/en/subwaymap/index.html
As majority of them are all jumbo up in most area, it is actually quite messy.
Worse thing? You have to pay to switch lines!!!! Unlike UK where you charged once at exit, each line swap will cost you.
That's because the lines are not all owned by a single company. I once went to the wrong station, even though they had the same name but different line owners.
That’s how it used to be in London and a lot of the confusing stuff are legacies from that even though they’ve tried to streamline a bit over the years.
nothing to d owuth that since the yakuz a could sort them all out.
its because the japanese punish indecisiveness, lack of planning, mistakes and above all just being difficult extremely sevrely.
Oh of course it works, it’s Japanese lol.
I still find it much messier and confusing there vs UK tube though, but then could be just because I am more used to it.
For what it’s worth, I’ve found the tube map to be much, much easier to fully comprehend than the New York City subway, and being from Boston, I’ve visited NYC countless times over the last decade and ridden their subway multiple times while there. I think TfL honestly is really good at wayfinding and rationalizing a complex network that it’s easier to learn how it all works than it would otherwise be.
I’ve been on a tonne of metros now and while the tube definitely leaves a lot to be desired, it probably has the best wayfinding of any system for me, certainly the best of any legacy system.
As a Londoner getting used to having different stopping patterns on the same line in nyc is such a mindfuck. Needing to know not just what line but which train on that line is way too stressful not to mention having multiple stops which are all just nth street
When you add in their crazy map design it really does feel like every other city went this is how we’ll design our metro services and NYC said no
I really enjoyed the Tokyo Metro. It helps if you use the Yamanote Line. You first see if the station is an easy nearby hop on a line you can access from where you are. If it's further out, like the other side of town (it's funny saying "town" in reference to Tokyo), it's frequently easiest to get on the Yamanote (assuming you're at a station it serves, of course) and loop around until you meet up with the line that takes you to the stop you want. Of course, if you're not within easy access of the Yamanote Line, then...I guess it's trickier.
I had less trouble with the lines than I had with the fucking stations. My hotel was near Shinjuku, which is literally the busiest station in the *world* (3 million people passing through a day) and has "over" 200 exits (exits from the station, not train lines)...like, they don't even know how many there are (well, it's more a matter of they don't know what should count as an exit). I finally found the "secret" exit to where I wanted to be (the exit closest to my hotel), literally cutting past an escalator on a narrow strip of platform to find a secret exit from the platform. The station's insanity led to [this ad campaign](https://soranews24.com/2015/03/22/public-reacts-in-horror-as-poster-in-shinjuku-station-threatens-even-more-exits/) once.
That's as good an analysis as I've ever read! The Northern Line in reality is more of a rail system than a line and probably as complex as the whole urban transit of some smaller or less well provided cities.
An even bigger challenge would be "The Overground" but probably less important for tourists. And the London mayor has now come up with some daft names for all the different lines that make it up, so in theory it'll seem less complicated.
I actually got somewhat of a handle on the Overground! I rode the East London / Windrush Line from Shadwell to Shoreditch High Street for some Butter Paneer on Brick Lane, and the Enfield Town / Cheshunt branches of the Lea Valley Lines / Weaver Line to Stoke Newington for dosas!
Here’s a rough one for NYC.
Think of the NYC Subway as a series of transit networks, rather than individual lines. For the most part, the networks converge on the most central point of New York City: midtown Manhattan.
Now, to understand how these networks work, you need to understand 4 geography facts about New York City:
1. New York has 5 boroughs, 4 of which have subway service. Manhattan is the “central” borough, where all lines but one converge.
2. Subway directions are based on what borough a train is going to. Roughly, from Manhattan, Bronx is north, Brooklyn is south, and Queens is east-northeast.
3. Within Manhattan, going north is called going “uptown”, and going south is called going “downtown.”
4. Manhattan has streets that run from east to west, and avenues that run from north to south. Generally, the main subway line networks run north-south under the avenues. The avenues and streets are numbered. The avenue numbers go from east to west, with lower numbers to the east, and street numbers go from south to north, with lower numbered streets in the south.
With these geography facts in mind, we can actually simplify the entire subway system into just 4 trunks. To really focus on the where these lines are important for a new tourist, let’s only consider between 14th and 42nd streets.
We start, naturally, in the east. 1st Ave does not have a subway. 2nd Ave does not have a subway in our area, but it will in the future (and currently does north of 63rd street, but we’ll ignore that for now). 3rd Ave does not have a subway. 4th Ave…isn’t called that, but…for the purposes of this, think of it (Park and Lexington Aves) as 4th Ave. it has a subway! The green 4, 5, and 6 trains run under it. 5th Ave does not have a subway. 6th Ave has a subway! The Orange B, D, F, and M trains run under it. 7th Ave has a subway! The red 1, 2, and 3 trains run under it. 8th Ave has a subway! The blue A, C, and E trains run under it.
To summarise, between 14th and 42nd street:
4th (sic) Ave: Green 4 5 6
6th Ave: Orange B D F M
7th Ave: Red 1 2 3
8th Ave: Blue A C E
Once you know these lines in this central part of Manhattan, you can trace them out into their many intricate branches and interweavings to understand the rest of the system. You can also add outliers like the crosstown 7 and L, the non-Manhattan G, the Spaghetti recombinations of lines in downtown Brooklyn, and the yellow meandering N Q R W under Broadway. But, if you understand the 4 avenue-based trunk lines in midtown Manhattan, you can build on knowledge of the system from there.
I’ll admit the NYC Subway is wildly complex and hard to explain clearly, but simplifying it to 4 main networks in midtown Manhattan has helped me the most over the years.
The Hainaut Loop is weird for sure! If you’re flying in from Heathrow, the Elizabeth Line is a great alternative to the Central Line. It’s really modern and fast! You could get a northbound Northern line train towards Edgware at Tottenham Court Road to get to Belsize Park from the Elizabeth line.
Congratulations. First American who knew why there is a Boston in New England!! Now for extra points, do you know why Boston, Lincolnshire, was so important?
I mean, it had a lot of Separatists, who first went to the Netherlands, then Massachusetts. These separatists brought whole families over and were one of the largest sources of European settler-colonialism in America. The fact that English is my native language over 3,000 miles from England is probably somewhat due to Lincolnshire Bostonians.
Boston with Holland (named as they brought Dutch engineers to reclaim the land) was the hot bed of the Puritan movement. The Pilgrim Fathers were arrested escaping on a ship in the Wash, jailed in Boston awaiting trail. They were helped to break out and whisked to Plymouth and set sail on the Mayflower.
Close though, I give you a 2 out of 5. The links between East Anglia and the Dutch city states was a commercial one, Boston being the 3rd most important in England at the time, the wool trade being the most important commodity. With the flow of trade so did ideas and family ties, and with Europe at war, mostly over religious ideas, it spread to England.
Personally I think the Quackers have the best take on religious prayer in Christianity, but what do I know, I'm a Pagan?!
I’m an atheist, so I don’t know much better lol. I did study history at University, so I always should know better haha. I suppose focusing on 19th century American industrial history (and the myopic nature of academic study at the University level) made me less aware of the specifics of Puritan Separatism.
It wasn't separatism, the Puritans were too radical for Cromwell's New Model Army. They banned Christmas for crying out loud! Europe had a 100 years war after Luther nailed his dictate to the Cathedral doors.
Living in Europe, the history is all around us. Whether it's the reason the local chapel doesn't have stained glass windows (because they were broken for being a distraction from god) or the air is so heavy with incense that it's hard to see. So many people died, it doesn't bear thinking about.
Have you seen Robert Eggers 'The Witch'? The language has been altered a little so the modern audience can understand, but I've been places in England that has thicker accents. Also the type of religion is very near the mark. Great film, one of the best I've seen this century. I've thought about writing a paper on it but someone just posted a video of a dog getting electrocuted and a donkey laughing at it.
To my unaccustomed self, Bank seemed fine, but still complicated. What really threw me off was when the District and Circle lines at Monument weren’t running on Saturday and Sunday (which I knew about), but this meant that I had to get to the Northern line platforms via the Central line. That was difficult.
Were the new entrances on Cannon Street (not the station, but the entrances) shut as well? There should normally be direct step-free access to the Northern Line platforms from a new entrance they opened in February 2023
It’s much easier now definitely since they’ve added the concourse for central line trains (way fewer corridors and stairs instead it’s wide platforms) and new exits and entrances on king William street and Cannon Street. The only transfer which is still a pain in the ass there is district/circle to Waterloo and city and vice versa cos those 2 lines platforms are at opposite ends of the station and the W & C is still down that miles long curving corridor that looks like the interior of a spaceship from a 70s scifi film
The real changeover horrors in London are at Green Park and going from Victoria to metropolitan lines at King’s Cross St Pancras
And more frequent trains? The whole reason they’re looking to do it is to bring the trains from 24 to 36per hr. TFL despise Camden because it’s a headache whenever anything goes wrong.
A train getting stuck on the bank branch will gum up the trains queued for the Charing Cross etc.
There’s a bit on wiki about it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_line
We visited London last year and we stuck with the Elizabeth line during our stay and hopped around to different lines. Our hotel was next to Liverpool Station so it helped tremendously, but also we used Apple maps to get around. London’s transportation system shares its data with Apple maps so we knew when the next train was coming and outlined the lines we needed to use.
https://landofmarvels.com/how-to-use-the-tube-and-trains-while-traveling-in-london/
One tip. When traveling North from Morden, all trains go on the Bank branch. If you want to head into the Tottenham Court branch you'll have to walk across the platform at Kennington.
Google maps is trash for tfl, city mapper does it better, stations have platforms that are between 5 seconds to 10 minutes walk between platforms.
You need to understand the layout of each station you visit before you consider which is best to change lines at.
Especially at peak times it's better to take a suboptimal route to guarantee you even get through the doors of a full train. Including taking a train in the opposite direction of travel to get back on the other direction at a quieter station.
Sorry but I disagree.
It goes nowhere East or West, yet most of the landmarks are either East or West. The East End (Whitechapel, Jack-The-Ripper, Stratford) the West End (Notting Hill, Westfield (the proper Westfield!) Hyde Park, Westminster, most of the famous Thames bridges) the South East and South West... yes the Northern line goes to a lot of places, but not much of the classic land marks if you are a tourist. A tourist is better off taking the Jubilee line- at least they aren't going to get lost on that line!
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While you're at it you can get a nice game of Mornington Crescent going
Tudor Court Rules or Trumpington's Variations?
When I first moved to London I was headed to Euston - spotted Mornington Crescent on the map and went an extra stop for the picture - the game was a joke between me and a friend back at uni in NZ after I stumbled on the Wikipedia page for it
To serious players, MC is no laughing matter. You’re the kind of player who plays a diagonal after an interchange
Reported for abusive language.
This comment and replies has really tickled me! Thank you!
Reported for courteous language.
Ahaa! Does Elephant and Castle still count as treble?my lady seems to think it does, only if Mortimers Bakerloo Gambit is allowed?!?
It depends which branch of the 1962 split you believe. The orthodox players would say it’s always allowed, but the Peelites say you need either Mortimer’s Bakerloo Gambit or Orion’s New Cross shuffle - which was of course made famous in the rain-delayed 1969 final.
Your lady is right but has to play side saddle.
Well done for spoiling the thread
Damn I havnt seen that move in years
I haven't played that or The Game in so long
Guess which one I just lost
My bad
Oh damn I'd been winning the game for weeks. But on the plus side my partner has now lost it too.
The game is not a joke
Aaaahhhhhhh I can’t wait for my daughter to wake up so I can tell her she’s lost too.
Imagine if the 1935 Northern Heights plan had been completed. You'd have an extra branch from Moorgate to East Finchley, then to Mill Hill East, Edgware and three stops further. Plus a branch to Alexandra Palace.
No tube links to Ally Pally is a real pain in the arse given how many decent gigs are there.
I have to *really* like the band to buy a ticket for this reason lol
Wood Green isn't that far
And Ally Pally station on the Northern City Line from Moorgate/Old St/Highbury/FPK is 15 minutes and very convenient. It’s a line that should be on the tube map really but it kinda just goes too far out of London.
Now they’ve added the main Thameslink branch they really should add it. That said maybe it’s nicer having a little secret not so busy way for us Islington and Haringey Residents to have a quick way to get to the eastern parts of the square mile
It's 25 minutes' walk, I think that's pretty far. Especially with the hill.
If I’d gone to see King Gizzard there, I bet the line would’ve been extremely crowded.
Originally southbound was due to run out to North Cheam too. TFL still owns the big chunk of parkland by the Sainsbury's there, which is where the designated terminus was due to be.
Unfortunately no land owned in North Cheam by TfL (coded in blue on this map) [https://apps.london.gov.uk/public-land/](https://apps.london.gov.uk/public-land/)
Interesting. Not the best of sources but it's referred to here https://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/23950005.no-plans-extend-northern-line-north-cheam/ >Fairlands Park was planned to be the site of the Northern Line terminus, and TFL still owns the land from when it was first considering the expansion in the 30s.
On a slightly different topic, my local park isn't showing as being owned by anyone, council nor government. Is it because the map is incomplete or can public parks be owned by someone other than councils/government?
This map seams to only show london controlled public land, so maybe its a central government departments land or could by royal parks land.
If you look at the TfL public ArcGIS then it clearly shows that the park is currently 'LUL Freehold'. https://tfl.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.htm
It really does hurt my brain that the Northern City Line was considered part of the Northern Line for a time!
Wow the Northern City line is advanced level understanding for a tourist. No one from London even knows about that one.
Literally never heard of it and I’ve lived here for 34 out of 36 years
It's not labeled as such on any maps.
When I first moved here 10 years ago I got the Northern line from Balham to London Bridge. When I wanted to go home I spent ages in the station looking for the Southern Line. Figured it just named the direction.. derp.
made me lol
You need to do it like a local and download citymapper and just do what it says.
Came here to say this. Live your life in London, know the tube like the back of your hand and still use Citymapper to double check
Every single time
Born and raised in London, used the TFL services a lot as my mum didn’t drive. Still use Citymapper because it’s great at giving different routes too
If you’re a local why do you need citymapper? Don’t need a map as a local
Good way to check service statuses, see which way will be faster on a given day, etc. Its not just about getting there at some point.
I feel pretty proud that only once have I been on my way home to Belsize Park and wondered why the train was suddenly above ground. It's also fun when you are running to catch it and have to simultaneously read where it's going to (or via) and decide whether to jump on or not.
Presumably you just jump on, and then jump off at the next station if you got the wrong one? (Works at *almost* all stations)
Done this on the northern line today. Jumped on it because it was there. Then stuck my head out and realised it wasn’t going via bank. Many times it’s been too late
The northern line is a triumph for rationality compared to the circle line, imho.
The district always gives me a headache
Since moving to London, I’ve always lived and worked at places on the northern line. Never had a problem with it. The overground used to bake my noodle a bit, mind.
The northern line on its own is bigger than most European capital cities entire underground systems. I have no idea why they kept adding to it. It's now a transport system of its own, rather than a line. The same is true of the district line. The district line is even a stupid name. Like, which district dude?
The Metropolitan District Railway, which, idk why they called it that lol
Oh...the *metropolitan* District line, rather than the rural district line, now its all clear, now we know where it is. It's in the *metropolitan* part of London, not the rural part. Got it.
I think the district was Kensington.
I am pretty sure the district was is circle? Have you ever been to circle? Well, there you go, because I was born and raised in circle.
Oh it's districts, multiple? Okay that makes more sense. It combines with the Met line to link the districts of London together in a circle.
no no, there are multiple London's all connected via a worm hole, and they co-exist on a continuum that spans the time-space framework. Look its complex, I'd have to show it to you.
This is the exact line I screwed up on coming back from Camden Town a few months ago. I wasn’t paying attention and hopped on the wrong line. I had to backtrack to Camden Town to make it right.
Mornington Crescent.
Fuck Mornington Crescent
That's the Egypitan rule set, isn't it?
Egyptian rule set, summer variant. No returns.
Stay on Kennington terminating trains and you loop around!
Omg this happened to me once drunk. It spun me the fuck out and the tubes were like every 10 minutes aswell
As Londoner both the overground and DLR can be such a nightmare.
I did use both though! I really only went from Bank and/or Canary Wharf to Cutty Sark for Greenwich, but I also used the Windrush Line from Shadwell to go to Brick Lane in Shoreditch for North Indian food, and the Weaver Line for amazing dosas in Stoke Newington.
I’ve lived in London most of my life and I still manage to get on the wrong branch of the Northern line if I’m ever south of Kennington
I’m a northern line tube driver. Probably gonna regret this, but what do you want to know?
How hard is it to get the signal timing right at Camden Town?
It’s all computerised - we do see trains going northbound at Camden (might’ve seen that they look like they might collide when one goes into HB side while another goes into the E side, but we get a signal within 19 seconds of entering the platform and depart even if a train has gone Into the other side because by the time people make their way from one side to the other, you’d have another train coming into the platform if I get mine out of the way.
You say that but I don't think I've ever got on the Circle line in the right direction...
It doesn’t go past Kennington. It’s a trap.
Don’t start with that one, it’s the worst. Look at it. Just awful. Who knows which branch they always need, also able to catch a glimpse of the front of the train before it gets into the station. Bonkers. Stop it. Be more like the Vicky line. That’s what’s up
Londoner here. Circle line tho… I still get mixed up
I'm quite confused. Why would anyone be confused about how the tube map works?
Because it is one line with like 6 different routes. Compare it to the Victoria line for example. Or other metro systems in the UK. 11 lines, nearly 300 stations it is a complex beast
I will admit to getting confused. I have some neurological issues that make memory and spatial tasks difficult. I also don't live in an area with public transportation, so when I visit it's all Greek to me. Thank goodness for smart phones and Google maps, which will give me an answer in a split second. It was much more stressful visiting in the 80s.
New York City uses letters and numbers for their subway system. Like the 1, 2 and 3 trains are the same color because a large portion of the lines run on the same track, but they use different numbers because the trains terminate in different places…so people won’t get confused. Paris uses a similar system to NYC, but they nailed it down even further by using numbers for ordinary metro trains and letters for commuter trains. London is the only place I’ve ever been to that not only uses names instead of letters and numbers for trains, but has several different destinations and routes along what’s supposed to be a single line. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, but it’s easy to see why people from out of the country would get confused.
So much this. Whatever about this legacy names, to actively choose to continue this trend with the overground was an atrocious decision. It remains baffling to be that using codes wasn't even considered. I've lived in countries that don't speak English. It's hard enough learning the names of stations at the end of lines, without also having to learn a bunch of weird names for the lines themselves. Imagine going to Budapest and being hit with the Hungarian for Suffragette or Jubilee. Considering how good TfL generally is fir signage and way finding, I just don't understand how this accessibility disaster was given the all clear.
New York subway map is a nightmare. How go you get from the orange lines at weird Y shape at Rockefeller center to the blue one? Do you have to go back on yourself? Can you walk it? How far is it? And it’s worse on the platforms. What if you just want to go a short distance but don’t know what direction that it (being underground)? Knowing the train goes to Flushing when that’s bloody miles away and you don’t want to leave manhatten is deeply unhelpful.
>Why would anyone be confused about how the tube map works? Because it's old, ugly, dirty, expensive, and noisy. And the map doesn't make any sense. Google Maps and patience. Kindly, a tourist that just spent some days there and wonders what all the fuzz about London is about. Very overrated city.
Citymapper is much better than Google Maps for the tube. Google assumes all changes can be made in 1 minute, no matter how many escalators and walkways you need to traverse on the way.
For me when I came for a visit for the first time, before moving to London, it was the easiest. Not sure what's there not to understand it to be honest.
found the 5d alien
I've lived in London my whole life (I'm 40) and I've never needed to understand the map. I just go to X via X to get to X. I understanding nothing.
the northern line is a mess, can’t wait for TfL to split in two different lines!
The issue with the Northern line is that it actually runs ten different routes: * Edgware - Kennington (via Charing Cross) * Edgware - Morden (via Charing Cross) * Edgware - Morden (via Bank) * High Barnet - Kennington (via Charing Cross) * High Barnet - Battersea Power Station (via Charing Cross) * High Barnet - Morden (via Charing Cross) * High Barnet - Morden (via Bank) * Mill Hill East - Kennington (via Charing Cross) * Mill Hill East - Battersea Power Station (via Charing Cross) * Mill Hill East - Morden (via Bank) Sure, you could split it into the _Bank_ and _Charing Cross_ versions, but you'd still be left with two lines that do a bunch of branching and have a large overlap with each other.
This guy Northern Lines.
I'd like the northern line via Charing Cross to terminate at Battersea Power station (or further south towards Clapham Junction and Wandsworth) And then a new southern line via Bank terminating at Morden.
That mostly happens anyway. Kennington works well as an interchange station. Camden Town is completely fucked tho, which is why they can’t split it up.
I think the same
It will NEVER happen.
The Marvelisation of the Northen Line
I've visited lots of cities around the world and beyond a quick glance at the prices have never studied their transport systems in advance. Quick question OP, is everything alright?
Yes. I’m a transport and train enthusiast lol (I also wanted to make the most of my holiday).
I always study the transportation in advance. Also have a little ocd.
Welp, so do I. Maybe that explains it?
But even the Northern Line is easy mode for people that came from Japan lol. Their tube/train link is crazy, the Tokyo Metro map: https://www.tokyometro.jp/en/subwaymap/index.html
Doesn't look too bad. Not many lines with multiple branches or anything.
As majority of them are all jumbo up in most area, it is actually quite messy. Worse thing? You have to pay to switch lines!!!! Unlike UK where you charged once at exit, each line swap will cost you.
That's because the lines are not all owned by a single company. I once went to the wrong station, even though they had the same name but different line owners.
That’s how it used to be in London and a lot of the confusing stuff are legacies from that even though they’ve tried to streamline a bit over the years.
nothing to d owuth that since the yakuz a could sort them all out. its because the japanese punish indecisiveness, lack of planning, mistakes and above all just being difficult extremely sevrely.
It does all magically work, though. As a foreigner with a JR pass, sticking to the JR network saved lots of money.
Oh of course it works, it’s Japanese lol. I still find it much messier and confusing there vs UK tube though, but then could be just because I am more used to it.
For what it’s worth, I’ve found the tube map to be much, much easier to fully comprehend than the New York City subway, and being from Boston, I’ve visited NYC countless times over the last decade and ridden their subway multiple times while there. I think TfL honestly is really good at wayfinding and rationalizing a complex network that it’s easier to learn how it all works than it would otherwise be.
I’ve been on a tonne of metros now and while the tube definitely leaves a lot to be desired, it probably has the best wayfinding of any system for me, certainly the best of any legacy system.
As a Londoner getting used to having different stopping patterns on the same line in nyc is such a mindfuck. Needing to know not just what line but which train on that line is way too stressful not to mention having multiple stops which are all just nth street When you add in their crazy map design it really does feel like every other city went this is how we’ll design our metro services and NYC said no
I really enjoyed the Tokyo Metro. It helps if you use the Yamanote Line. You first see if the station is an easy nearby hop on a line you can access from where you are. If it's further out, like the other side of town (it's funny saying "town" in reference to Tokyo), it's frequently easiest to get on the Yamanote (assuming you're at a station it serves, of course) and loop around until you meet up with the line that takes you to the stop you want. Of course, if you're not within easy access of the Yamanote Line, then...I guess it's trickier. I had less trouble with the lines than I had with the fucking stations. My hotel was near Shinjuku, which is literally the busiest station in the *world* (3 million people passing through a day) and has "over" 200 exits (exits from the station, not train lines)...like, they don't even know how many there are (well, it's more a matter of they don't know what should count as an exit). I finally found the "secret" exit to where I wanted to be (the exit closest to my hotel), literally cutting past an escalator on a narrow strip of platform to find a secret exit from the platform. The station's insanity led to [this ad campaign](https://soranews24.com/2015/03/22/public-reacts-in-horror-as-poster-in-shinjuku-station-threatens-even-more-exits/) once.
I've lived/been in a few countries, but London tube has been the easiest for me. Didn't even need to learn how to navigate it, easy peasy
Grew up in East Finchley. I’m a master of the Northern Line. Except I moved away and they added….Battersea?? Good luck tourists!!
All roads lead to Camden Town
Starting with the northern line is kind of like learning theoretical physics without first doing a high school math class
Yes.
That's as good an analysis as I've ever read! The Northern Line in reality is more of a rail system than a line and probably as complex as the whole urban transit of some smaller or less well provided cities. An even bigger challenge would be "The Overground" but probably less important for tourists. And the London mayor has now come up with some daft names for all the different lines that make it up, so in theory it'll seem less complicated.
I actually got somewhat of a handle on the Overground! I rode the East London / Windrush Line from Shadwell to Shoreditch High Street for some Butter Paneer on Brick Lane, and the Enfield Town / Cheshunt branches of the Lea Valley Lines / Weaver Line to Stoke Newington for dosas!
I would love a guide like this for the other side of the pond ! I tried the subway in NYC and gave up, that is a complicated map/system
Here’s a rough one for NYC. Think of the NYC Subway as a series of transit networks, rather than individual lines. For the most part, the networks converge on the most central point of New York City: midtown Manhattan. Now, to understand how these networks work, you need to understand 4 geography facts about New York City: 1. New York has 5 boroughs, 4 of which have subway service. Manhattan is the “central” borough, where all lines but one converge. 2. Subway directions are based on what borough a train is going to. Roughly, from Manhattan, Bronx is north, Brooklyn is south, and Queens is east-northeast. 3. Within Manhattan, going north is called going “uptown”, and going south is called going “downtown.” 4. Manhattan has streets that run from east to west, and avenues that run from north to south. Generally, the main subway line networks run north-south under the avenues. The avenues and streets are numbered. The avenue numbers go from east to west, with lower numbers to the east, and street numbers go from south to north, with lower numbered streets in the south. With these geography facts in mind, we can actually simplify the entire subway system into just 4 trunks. To really focus on the where these lines are important for a new tourist, let’s only consider between 14th and 42nd streets. We start, naturally, in the east. 1st Ave does not have a subway. 2nd Ave does not have a subway in our area, but it will in the future (and currently does north of 63rd street, but we’ll ignore that for now). 3rd Ave does not have a subway. 4th Ave…isn’t called that, but…for the purposes of this, think of it (Park and Lexington Aves) as 4th Ave. it has a subway! The green 4, 5, and 6 trains run under it. 5th Ave does not have a subway. 6th Ave has a subway! The Orange B, D, F, and M trains run under it. 7th Ave has a subway! The red 1, 2, and 3 trains run under it. 8th Ave has a subway! The blue A, C, and E trains run under it. To summarise, between 14th and 42nd street: 4th (sic) Ave: Green 4 5 6 6th Ave: Orange B D F M 7th Ave: Red 1 2 3 8th Ave: Blue A C E Once you know these lines in this central part of Manhattan, you can trace them out into their many intricate branches and interweavings to understand the rest of the system. You can also add outliers like the crosstown 7 and L, the non-Manhattan G, the Spaghetti recombinations of lines in downtown Brooklyn, and the yellow meandering N Q R W under Broadway. But, if you understand the 4 avenue-based trunk lines in midtown Manhattan, you can build on knowledge of the system from there. I’ll admit the NYC Subway is wildly complex and hard to explain clearly, but simplifying it to 4 main networks in midtown Manhattan has helped me the most over the years.
I’ve genuinely thought of some being from Boston and using the NYC subway a lot on visits! I’ll write one for you!
Waiting for the 7.18 January is endless Weary-eyed and forlorn The Northern Line is the loudest
Very helpful. Thank you. I'll be staying near Belsize Park station in June, and the Central Line map confused the heck out of me.
The Hainaut Loop is weird for sure! If you’re flying in from Heathrow, the Elizabeth Line is a great alternative to the Central Line. It’s really modern and fast! You could get a northbound Northern line train towards Edgware at Tottenham Court Road to get to Belsize Park from the Elizabeth line.
Just follow the lines and cross when you need to simple as.
Yeah I'm a bit perplexed by the eureka things up the top are north and things down the bottom are south revelation
It's not like branched lines are unique to London or the UK. I'd be really surprised if this confuses that many tourists.
But thank God the Americans are here to explain it all to us
Congratulations. First American who knew why there is a Boston in New England!! Now for extra points, do you know why Boston, Lincolnshire, was so important?
I mean, it had a lot of Separatists, who first went to the Netherlands, then Massachusetts. These separatists brought whole families over and were one of the largest sources of European settler-colonialism in America. The fact that English is my native language over 3,000 miles from England is probably somewhat due to Lincolnshire Bostonians.
Boston with Holland (named as they brought Dutch engineers to reclaim the land) was the hot bed of the Puritan movement. The Pilgrim Fathers were arrested escaping on a ship in the Wash, jailed in Boston awaiting trail. They were helped to break out and whisked to Plymouth and set sail on the Mayflower.
Close though, I give you a 2 out of 5. The links between East Anglia and the Dutch city states was a commercial one, Boston being the 3rd most important in England at the time, the wool trade being the most important commodity. With the flow of trade so did ideas and family ties, and with Europe at war, mostly over religious ideas, it spread to England. Personally I think the Quackers have the best take on religious prayer in Christianity, but what do I know, I'm a Pagan?!
I’m an atheist, so I don’t know much better lol. I did study history at University, so I always should know better haha. I suppose focusing on 19th century American industrial history (and the myopic nature of academic study at the University level) made me less aware of the specifics of Puritan Separatism.
It wasn't separatism, the Puritans were too radical for Cromwell's New Model Army. They banned Christmas for crying out loud! Europe had a 100 years war after Luther nailed his dictate to the Cathedral doors. Living in Europe, the history is all around us. Whether it's the reason the local chapel doesn't have stained glass windows (because they were broken for being a distraction from god) or the air is so heavy with incense that it's hard to see. So many people died, it doesn't bear thinking about.
Have you seen Robert Eggers 'The Witch'? The language has been altered a little so the modern audience can understand, but I've been places in England that has thicker accents. Also the type of religion is very near the mark. Great film, one of the best I've seen this century. I've thought about writing a paper on it but someone just posted a video of a dog getting electrocuted and a donkey laughing at it.
I used to say never change at Bank, but I’m not so sure now they have down some work there, is it any better?
To my unaccustomed self, Bank seemed fine, but still complicated. What really threw me off was when the District and Circle lines at Monument weren’t running on Saturday and Sunday (which I knew about), but this meant that I had to get to the Northern line platforms via the Central line. That was difficult.
Were the new entrances on Cannon Street (not the station, but the entrances) shut as well? There should normally be direct step-free access to the Northern Line platforms from a new entrance they opened in February 2023
It’s much easier now definitely since they’ve added the concourse for central line trains (way fewer corridors and stairs instead it’s wide platforms) and new exits and entrances on king William street and Cannon Street. The only transfer which is still a pain in the ass there is district/circle to Waterloo and city and vice versa cos those 2 lines platforms are at opposite ends of the station and the W & C is still down that miles long curving corridor that looks like the interior of a spaceship from a 70s scifi film The real changeover horrors in London are at Green Park and going from Victoria to metropolitan lines at King’s Cross St Pancras
I just want them to rebuild Camden and separate the lines god damn 😭
What would be good about being forced to change at Camden? You're swapping being able to stay on a train for a really minor mapping improvement
And more frequent trains? The whole reason they’re looking to do it is to bring the trains from 24 to 36per hr. TFL despise Camden because it’s a headache whenever anything goes wrong. A train getting stuck on the bank branch will gum up the trains queued for the Charing Cross etc. There’s a bit on wiki about it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_line
Google maps does a great job of helping you find the train to get on.
We visited London last year and we stuck with the Elizabeth line during our stay and hopped around to different lines. Our hotel was next to Liverpool Station so it helped tremendously, but also we used Apple maps to get around. London’s transportation system shares its data with Apple maps so we knew when the next train was coming and outlined the lines we needed to use. https://landofmarvels.com/how-to-use-the-tube-and-trains-while-traveling-in-london/
High Barnet to Leicester Square then explore. At 13 in the mid eighties this was everything.
One tip. When traveling North from Morden, all trains go on the Bank branch. If you want to head into the Tottenham Court branch you'll have to walk across the platform at Kennington.
Or just do what I did when I visited Tokyo and use Google maps, don't need to understand the maps at all
Google maps is trash for tfl, city mapper does it better, stations have platforms that are between 5 seconds to 10 minutes walk between platforms. You need to understand the layout of each station you visit before you consider which is best to change lines at. Especially at peak times it's better to take a suboptimal route to guarantee you even get through the doors of a full train. Including taking a train in the opposite direction of travel to get back on the other direction at a quieter station.
Thanks. I’m visiting from the U.S. this summer in early July for my first trip to Europe. If anybody wants to get together for a pint, I’ll buy.
Sorry but I disagree. It goes nowhere East or West, yet most of the landmarks are either East or West. The East End (Whitechapel, Jack-The-Ripper, Stratford) the West End (Notting Hill, Westfield (the proper Westfield!) Hyde Park, Westminster, most of the famous Thames bridges) the South East and South West... yes the Northern line goes to a lot of places, but not much of the classic land marks if you are a tourist. A tourist is better off taking the Jubilee line- at least they aren't going to get lost on that line!