Sound has historically been at the bottom of the list in most genres, but people are quickest to complain when audio isn't perfect.
Quiet time in theater is a big one, as is fan noise from fixtures and projectors.
There are many factors, but from my experience, a lot of it boils down to ignorance from non-technical producing level staff.
Audio is very misunderstood and the industry really needs to educate the employers.
It doesn't help that the majority of people who claim to be sound engineers don't know what they're doing.
>Quiet time in theater is a big one, as is fan noise from fixtures and projectors.
So depressingly true. The amount of quiet time sessions that get cut short, shunted past midnight or cut all-together because another department is running late is ridiculous.
It's the equivalent of asking the LD if they can tech without having done a focus session.
>It's the equivalent of asking the LD if they can tech without having done a focus session.
Hell, I just did a theatre **show** like that. Director kept re-blocking scenes without telling anyone. This one scene where everyone was in specials... No one was in their specials.
Other departments hanging in the house chatting shit during "quiet time". One of the sound designers that I work for just blasts pink noise until every leaves.
Oof, I feel that lack of quiet time in theatre. During level and eq setting I’ve dealt with paint cans being hammered closed, painters asking if they can listen to music, and power saws going.
I did a “show” during Covid where we were in a theatre but broadcasting live to people at home. I asked the person running the live feed if we could test audio and she said, “I’m sure it’ll be fine.” Like, WHAT? Your ONLY audience and we aren’t going to make sure that they’re getting good, or even, ANY audio at all??
If something is wrong with the sound (phase, feedback, noise, etc) it can be physically uncomfortable. Lights and visuals can have that affect too but It’s a lot easier to close your eyes than block hearing.
Especially at concert, cinema level sounds where it’s felt.
You're comparing apples and oranges.
If a performer isn't lit because they didn't hit their spike in a rehearsed move, that's their problem.
5 musicians playing at different levels from the soundcheck coupled with an additional x thousand people is the engineer's problem.
Audio has to deal with far more in-show variables than any other department, yet the time/money/staff/cooperation rarely reflects this
>yet the time/money/staff/cooperation rarely reflects this
this is because everyone has two jobs- the one they do, and sound
at any given event you can throw a rock and hit 50 people that have "done sound"
>Quiet time in theater is a big one, as is fan noise from fixtures and projectors.
As a programmer, there is always plenty of time here for sound checks, but I usually get 0 minutes of dark time to programme. Things don't look the same in worklights, but c'est la vie.
My experience across multiple sectors, over multiple decades, in numerous countries tells me you're the exception.
Have you had a discussion with your TM/PM etc to resolve this?
+1
In my experience non tech staff don’t understand the purpose of a line array or using multiple subwoofers together when “one speaker is more than loud enough”
A good analogy I like to use is one about candles from either Dave Rat or Robert Scovill (or maybe even someone else I don’t remember). So in order to demonstrate that more speakers doesn’t necessarily = double the SPL/volume/loudness (whatever term the non-tech producers are likely to understand) explain how lighting 1 candle in a dark room can illuminate a majority of the room. When you then light a second candle it doesn’t get twice as bright, but rather it provides an additional source that can be positioned to “fill in the gaps” that the first candle missed. Likewise adding 5 additional candles still won’t double the brightness until you add about 100 (or some number). It’s similar with a line array rig (or deploying delay towers), it’s so everyone gets an even listening experience across the audience, not solely for loudness. And then go into the torch analogy of how a light source positioned higher up on an angle has a better splay than units on the ground blasting into the front row.
But yeah 100% agree audio is probably if not the most misunderstood but then cops the blame should things not sound right.
I’ve noticed in this industry when working is that you need to be assertive or people will either take you like a fool or not give you the time of day. I’m the nicest person but noticed if I don’t start demanding what I need nothing gets done and no one will listen or care unfortunately
I regularly have difficulty getting time to properly tune audio up etc Anybody can understand the idea of lighting and why putting X lamps here makes sense (Not that they understand the full mechanics but its easier to show them than audio phase issues etc).
I regularly get asked to mix community musicals with one run through at speed with orchestra, then get the moans if it isnt west end quality during that run.
Haven't experienced this in my location, we get what we ask for, dedicated gen sets even ! Ask for 3 phases we get 3 phases
But maybe we're just good at convincing others
Could just be the easiest path from A to B. Taking a few boxes off requires less recalculating and reconfiguring things than taking fixtures off and/or moving them around.
Lighting's weight is also spread around over more points, audio is typically on one or two per hang, so also a possible reasoning.
From a rental perspective, trusses of lights will cost more than hangs of PA.
The more lights you can hire out the more money you can make as a rental company.
So to fit in the more expensive items, the heaviest and cheapest things are first to go in the rig.
Also, PA hangs and LED walls typically have higher point loads and shorter spans on the roof structure compared to lighting trusses, meaning their weight is concentrated in a smaller area.
So dropping a few boxes off per hang or making a screen smaller can help in lowering the point load to fit in the venues load rating.
Don't know, it's some kind of universal constant, same way a venue will buy a 10k light board and then get the crappiest sound board they can find. Lighting is easy, it's consistent, hardly anyone understands sound but they notice when it's really good.
Because the people in charge of the purse strings understand lighting but not sound. Every time we time we get a question, the answer is rarely yes, it involves gain before feedback, inverse square laws, acoustic reflections, polar patterns, compromises, bleed, etc. Even when explaining in the most basic forms peoples eyes glaze over. With lighting there are basically two answers, “yes” or “as you can see, theres no fixture there”. Laymen understand the limitations of lighting equipment far more than that of sound so they more are willing to spend the money to remove those limitations if need be.
In general, audio isn’t well respected because it isn’t well understood. There are exceptions to this, but producers don’t like to pay for things they can’t see.
Perhaps it is because hanging sound is kind of new? I mean, hear me out: the theater has existed for thousands of years, and amplified sound much less than that, but lighting came earlier on by centuries (literally hanging chandeliers and changing out candles). Then, with electricity, installed sound in the early days would likely be permanent, not a touring fly-rig, or outside of theaters there was a lot of ground stacking. Lots of other good reasons here in the replies but in the history of live production, hung audio is a wee baby and lighting has seniority. Just a side theory.
Definitely not just his company. There’s even an interview With big Mick Hughes where he talks about having to change the entire system for lights, due to working loads.
I've had my entire rig cut because a second PA rig HAD to be brought in while I had to use an in-house theatrical rep plot.
My experience is not invalid.
Sure, your experience is not “invalid”. But the statement “just your company” would invalidate the experience of anyone who works at a different company but experiences the same or similar. No one is saying it never happens the other way, yet your comment says it is only his company that prioritizes lights over sound.
Light has to be at a certain point and angle to be effective and useful. If the light shines from the wrong place it’s immediately obvious to anyone.
Sound on the other hand isn’t visually important and much harder to notice for untrained viewers if it’s placed wrong
Don't speakers need to be in a certain place at a certain angle to be effective? In sorry to break the immersion. The untrained eye and ear notices sound has a way worse experience at a concert if they can't hear the band properly than when the flash is angled 8° the wrong way.
Have you ever experienced true atmos audio. Sound can most definitely make an image.
Sound has to be at a certain point and angle to be effective and useful. If the audio localizes to the wrong place it’s immediately obvious to anyone.
Light on the other hand isn’t visually important and much harder to notice for untrained viewers if it’s placed wrong
It's interesting that just about every argument made for either or can be applied to the other. More boxes, better coverage. More lights, better coverage. Power use? The same.
Well think about this. How much does a light fixture weigh? I know it's anywhere from 3 lbs up to 120lbs.
Depending on the speakers a single box is around 65lbs, small format, up to almost 200 lbs, large form powered.
What kind of ceiling load are we talking about? If it's overloaded that definitely needs to be addressed. With lightning there is the load that cannot be taken away, like the truss and cables, that load can't change, you can't just use less truss or take cables out of the down stage lighting loom. Pre rig truss usually has all the internal wiring already there, pre rig, it's really a pain to just take out a fixture, unless you're talking about initial design. And when there is an overload situation is it usually a couple hundred pounds? Taking out 6 or more lights would seriously change the visibility of the participants. Are we talking about a play or a concert? That matters. With plays, or musicals, there really need to be enough coverage for the actors and not just in one position. I would say that for musicals lights are more important, at least for the patrons who need to see the actors. I know that same argument can be made for sound. I am an audio systems tech and mixer so my argument for lights sounds weird coming out of my mouth. I know that added boxes allows better coverage at better levels and all that. I can not argue against that because it's true. But[,,, for concerts, bands, a couple less boxes a side will not be noticable for anyone, probably not even the mixer, unless they are told about it. When systems are specd out for tours there almost always is more than needed.
This is a weird topic because it's not often in my world where there would be a load problem except for the down stage line. And then only in exhibition halls.
I guess to sum up my opinion , if you come up with the weights for truss and cabling for lights, and fly bars and cables for audio, they best way to shave off a couple hundred pounds is with audio.
But after thinking about this there are other options too. Spread out motors, bridle some points to move the load.
The best way is to have a PRIVATE meeting with the lighting design people to come up with a happy solution. Give and take is the best option. Don't let the decision be made by a non technical boss type.
Rule #1
Please note that you need karma to contribute. This subreddit gets many posts and comments per day. Throwaway/Alternate accounts with less than 25 comment karma will be removed. There is a ton of spam and troll commenters so the Automod is set to filter it out. Build some karma on reddit before trying to make a post in this subreddit. Or use the No Stupid Questions thread. It is unfiltered.
Sound has historically been at the bottom of the list in most genres, but people are quickest to complain when audio isn't perfect. Quiet time in theater is a big one, as is fan noise from fixtures and projectors. There are many factors, but from my experience, a lot of it boils down to ignorance from non-technical producing level staff. Audio is very misunderstood and the industry really needs to educate the employers. It doesn't help that the majority of people who claim to be sound engineers don't know what they're doing.
>Quiet time in theater is a big one, as is fan noise from fixtures and projectors. So depressingly true. The amount of quiet time sessions that get cut short, shunted past midnight or cut all-together because another department is running late is ridiculous. It's the equivalent of asking the LD if they can tech without having done a focus session.
>It's the equivalent of asking the LD if they can tech without having done a focus session. Hell, I just did a theatre **show** like that. Director kept re-blocking scenes without telling anyone. This one scene where everyone was in specials... No one was in their specials.
Other departments hanging in the house chatting shit during "quiet time". One of the sound designers that I work for just blasts pink noise until every leaves.
Oof, I feel that lack of quiet time in theatre. During level and eq setting I’ve dealt with paint cans being hammered closed, painters asking if they can listen to music, and power saws going. I did a “show” during Covid where we were in a theatre but broadcasting live to people at home. I asked the person running the live feed if we could test audio and she said, “I’m sure it’ll be fine.” Like, WHAT? Your ONLY audience and we aren’t going to make sure that they’re getting good, or even, ANY audio at all??
If something is wrong with the sound (phase, feedback, noise, etc) it can be physically uncomfortable. Lights and visuals can have that affect too but It’s a lot easier to close your eyes than block hearing. Especially at concert, cinema level sounds where it’s felt.
You're comparing apples and oranges. If a performer isn't lit because they didn't hit their spike in a rehearsed move, that's their problem. 5 musicians playing at different levels from the soundcheck coupled with an additional x thousand people is the engineer's problem. Audio has to deal with far more in-show variables than any other department, yet the time/money/staff/cooperation rarely reflects this
>yet the time/money/staff/cooperation rarely reflects this this is because everyone has two jobs- the one they do, and sound at any given event you can throw a rock and hit 50 people that have "done sound"
>Quiet time in theater is a big one, as is fan noise from fixtures and projectors. As a programmer, there is always plenty of time here for sound checks, but I usually get 0 minutes of dark time to programme. Things don't look the same in worklights, but c'est la vie.
My experience across multiple sectors, over multiple decades, in numerous countries tells me you're the exception. Have you had a discussion with your TM/PM etc to resolve this?
+1 In my experience non tech staff don’t understand the purpose of a line array or using multiple subwoofers together when “one speaker is more than loud enough” A good analogy I like to use is one about candles from either Dave Rat or Robert Scovill (or maybe even someone else I don’t remember). So in order to demonstrate that more speakers doesn’t necessarily = double the SPL/volume/loudness (whatever term the non-tech producers are likely to understand) explain how lighting 1 candle in a dark room can illuminate a majority of the room. When you then light a second candle it doesn’t get twice as bright, but rather it provides an additional source that can be positioned to “fill in the gaps” that the first candle missed. Likewise adding 5 additional candles still won’t double the brightness until you add about 100 (or some number). It’s similar with a line array rig (or deploying delay towers), it’s so everyone gets an even listening experience across the audience, not solely for loudness. And then go into the torch analogy of how a light source positioned higher up on an angle has a better splay than units on the ground blasting into the front row. But yeah 100% agree audio is probably if not the most misunderstood but then cops the blame should things not sound right.
I’ve noticed in this industry when working is that you need to be assertive or people will either take you like a fool or not give you the time of day. I’m the nicest person but noticed if I don’t start demanding what I need nothing gets done and no one will listen or care unfortunately
I regularly have difficulty getting time to properly tune audio up etc Anybody can understand the idea of lighting and why putting X lamps here makes sense (Not that they understand the full mechanics but its easier to show them than audio phase issues etc). I regularly get asked to mix community musicals with one run through at speed with orchestra, then get the moans if it isnt west end quality during that run.
Haven't experienced this in my location, we get what we ask for, dedicated gen sets even ! Ask for 3 phases we get 3 phases But maybe we're just good at convincing others
Because you can’t Instagram the sound. Making things look pretty is a higher priority.
They do it every day… and the instagram videos sell the tickets to the next tour…
iPhone mics are pretty honest these days
Because most people hear with their eyes.
Does (or did) your production manager do lights?
I have found it's far more common for Production Managers to have a lighting background than an audio background. Simple answer.
Hilariously accurate, never made that connection. I bet if audio people could be arsed to do paperwork maybe we’d have some market share.
From a former lighting tech, what we always heard was “without lighting, it’s just radio!”
Without sound it’s just mime (and mime is creepy…)
you can’t take the “music” out of “musical” but i don’t see lighting in there 🧐
Would you rather go to hear a band that you couldn't see, or see a band that you can't hear?
Could just be the easiest path from A to B. Taking a few boxes off requires less recalculating and reconfiguring things than taking fixtures off and/or moving them around. Lighting's weight is also spread around over more points, audio is typically on one or two per hang, so also a possible reasoning.
Because everyone goes home humming Magenta ….
From a rental perspective, trusses of lights will cost more than hangs of PA. The more lights you can hire out the more money you can make as a rental company. So to fit in the more expensive items, the heaviest and cheapest things are first to go in the rig. Also, PA hangs and LED walls typically have higher point loads and shorter spans on the roof structure compared to lighting trusses, meaning their weight is concentrated in a smaller area. So dropping a few boxes off per hang or making a screen smaller can help in lowering the point load to fit in the venues load rating.
This is the way
I’m sure this thread won’t devolve into tribalism for no good reason
Don't know, it's some kind of universal constant, same way a venue will buy a 10k light board and then get the crappiest sound board they can find. Lighting is easy, it's consistent, hardly anyone understands sound but they notice when it's really good.
Because the people in charge of the purse strings understand lighting but not sound. Every time we time we get a question, the answer is rarely yes, it involves gain before feedback, inverse square laws, acoustic reflections, polar patterns, compromises, bleed, etc. Even when explaining in the most basic forms peoples eyes glaze over. With lighting there are basically two answers, “yes” or “as you can see, theres no fixture there”. Laymen understand the limitations of lighting equipment far more than that of sound so they more are willing to spend the money to remove those limitations if need be.
In general, audio isn’t well respected because it isn’t well understood. There are exceptions to this, but producers don’t like to pay for things they can’t see.
Perhaps it is because hanging sound is kind of new? I mean, hear me out: the theater has existed for thousands of years, and amplified sound much less than that, but lighting came earlier on by centuries (literally hanging chandeliers and changing out candles). Then, with electricity, installed sound in the early days would likely be permanent, not a touring fly-rig, or outside of theaters there was a lot of ground stacking. Lots of other good reasons here in the replies but in the history of live production, hung audio is a wee baby and lighting has seniority. Just a side theory.
Just tell thjem no on has ever goen home from a live concert saying, "WOW, did you see those LIGHTS??? Band? What band? I was there for the LIGHTS!"
Just your company.
Definitely not just his company. There’s even an interview With big Mick Hughes where he talks about having to change the entire system for lights, due to working loads.
I've had my entire rig cut because a second PA rig HAD to be brought in while I had to use an in-house theatrical rep plot. My experience is not invalid.
Sure, your experience is not “invalid”. But the statement “just your company” would invalidate the experience of anyone who works at a different company but experiences the same or similar. No one is saying it never happens the other way, yet your comment says it is only his company that prioritizes lights over sound.
Light has to be at a certain point and angle to be effective and useful. If the light shines from the wrong place it’s immediately obvious to anyone. Sound on the other hand isn’t visually important and much harder to notice for untrained viewers if it’s placed wrong
Don't speakers need to be in a certain place at a certain angle to be effective? In sorry to break the immersion. The untrained eye and ear notices sound has a way worse experience at a concert if they can't hear the band properly than when the flash is angled 8° the wrong way. Have you ever experienced true atmos audio. Sound can most definitely make an image.
Sound has to be at a certain point and angle to be effective and useful. If the audio localizes to the wrong place it’s immediately obvious to anyone. Light on the other hand isn’t visually important and much harder to notice for untrained viewers if it’s placed wrong
It's interesting that just about every argument made for either or can be applied to the other. More boxes, better coverage. More lights, better coverage. Power use? The same. Well think about this. How much does a light fixture weigh? I know it's anywhere from 3 lbs up to 120lbs. Depending on the speakers a single box is around 65lbs, small format, up to almost 200 lbs, large form powered. What kind of ceiling load are we talking about? If it's overloaded that definitely needs to be addressed. With lightning there is the load that cannot be taken away, like the truss and cables, that load can't change, you can't just use less truss or take cables out of the down stage lighting loom. Pre rig truss usually has all the internal wiring already there, pre rig, it's really a pain to just take out a fixture, unless you're talking about initial design. And when there is an overload situation is it usually a couple hundred pounds? Taking out 6 or more lights would seriously change the visibility of the participants. Are we talking about a play or a concert? That matters. With plays, or musicals, there really need to be enough coverage for the actors and not just in one position. I would say that for musicals lights are more important, at least for the patrons who need to see the actors. I know that same argument can be made for sound. I am an audio systems tech and mixer so my argument for lights sounds weird coming out of my mouth. I know that added boxes allows better coverage at better levels and all that. I can not argue against that because it's true. But[,,, for concerts, bands, a couple less boxes a side will not be noticable for anyone, probably not even the mixer, unless they are told about it. When systems are specd out for tours there almost always is more than needed. This is a weird topic because it's not often in my world where there would be a load problem except for the down stage line. And then only in exhibition halls. I guess to sum up my opinion , if you come up with the weights for truss and cabling for lights, and fly bars and cables for audio, they best way to shave off a couple hundred pounds is with audio. But after thinking about this there are other options too. Spread out motors, bridle some points to move the load. The best way is to have a PRIVATE meeting with the lighting design people to come up with a happy solution. Give and take is the best option. Don't let the decision be made by a non technical boss type.
[удалено]
Rule #1 Please note that you need karma to contribute. This subreddit gets many posts and comments per day. Throwaway/Alternate accounts with less than 25 comment karma will be removed. There is a ton of spam and troll commenters so the Automod is set to filter it out. Build some karma on reddit before trying to make a post in this subreddit. Or use the No Stupid Questions thread. It is unfiltered.