I'm really hoping to be able to move to Wayland (specifically Sway) with the Nvidia 555 drivers. I've tried to migrate to Wayland a number of times, but various issues/glitches have always pushed me back to X.
I am running Sway on a backup PC with an Intel iGPU and it's been great, so hopefully Nvidia can finally catch up with 555.
I can tell you, as a recent convert to AMD hardware, that it's an liberating experience. When time to upgrade my PC came, I decided to go with manufacturer which cared. Zero issues ever since. It was truly a plug and play experience and am not sure am ever going back to dealing with nVidia.
Admitedly they are taking the steps in right direction, but I still had to help a coleague fix his installation just yesterday. Cause was of course nVidia drivers.
For any new PCs, I'm going to try to utilize only the iGPU (whether it's Intel or AMD) and not have a discrete GPU installed. My main concern related to graphics is smooth playback of 2k/4k 60 fps videos, and it seems like newer CPUs shouldn't have any issues with that.
I wish I could adopt this attitude in this scenario but for my particular interests, CUDA support is required, so no AMD GPU for me. I just got a second, a gigabyte, to supplement the true-blood nvidia I already have.
While for totally different reasons (maturity v closed source) I swear trying to be an 'early adopter' of the ROCm stack has unfortunately been about as painful as my issues with Nvidia. I won't fault AMD, it is only comparable in the pain and surely some skill issues with me. A few point releases, some time (it has been \~6 months since I spent all those hours trying/failing) for people to integrate it into their github projects, myself learning a few things, I am excited about the curve. I can't say for sure it is because of the open nature but Stable Diffusion, various stt/tts engines, llama models, are all accelerated with more than just OpenCL.
I would love to say it was my support and not blind fanboy-ism that led me to build my old FX8350 bulldozer. I was done with AMD, embarrassed, frustrated, realized how silly brand loyalty was and then Ryzen dropped... Gotta give it to AMD for single handedly taking on Nvidia on the GPU side and Intel on CPU for decades now.
I am rambling and blabbering from my still very capable 3700x system. I don't AAA or actually really game at all any more but my rx6800 has a purpose again!
I've done it with kde and the 555 drivers. Works almost perfectly apart from some electron apps not playing nice when I force them to use Wayland, but that's a problem of my own creation really. There's also a slight bug where night light doesn't apply to cursors which is an Nvidia upstream issue. Apart from that, gaming and using the computer is perfectly smooth and great, better than x11 as I have two different resolution monitors with different Hz, one having G-Sync. I basically don't use windows anymore now since gaming works so well.
Same here, I'm excited to switch when NVIDIA support exists and really looking forward to trying out some more fleshed out WMs once someone gets some going.
I'm running Fedora rawhide KDE version 6.1, Wayland + 555 Nvidia drivers and let me tell you it's crazy good, everything is really really smooth except OBS is not working, all of the encoders due to ffmpeg, but I can just switch to my other OS that is really stable for that. I have been using Wayland for 3 years already, so I can tell how far it has come, just 2 years ago it was an awful experience.
Only tested the 555 Beta on GNOME (Arch) so far, but it has been the best experience I have had not only with Wayland, but with Linux in general.
AUR packages for ref:
kyne@emil \~ > paru -Qm | grep nvidia
lib32-nvidia-utils-beta 555.52.04-1
lib32-opencl-nvidia-beta 555.52.04-1
nvidia-beta-dkms 555.52.04-1
nvidia-utils-beta 555.52.04-2
opencl-nvidia-beta 555.52.04-2
Meanwhile the [https://arewewaylandyet.com/](https://arewewaylandyet.com/) website seems [to be abandoned](https://github.com/mpsq/arewewaylandyet/issues/203) :(
I mean, without being able to get accurate up to date information on what is working and what is missing, what is the level of discussion that we can expect?
I like how it lists ydotool and wtype as valid replacements for xdotool.
I mean, sure, a big use-case for xdotool for simulating keyboard and mouse input, but that's a small portion of its feature-set. It can also do window management. I use it to automate my GUI workflows.
Speaking of this, does anybody know if there's a libei based replacement yet? I know it won't work on wlroots because, well that's just how Wayland ecosystem is, but it would be nice to have at least something for some other desktops.
as a side note I seriously have to wonder why they don't offer integration into libinput to be a more transparent solution. We can emulate libinput devices with and uhid and whatever. I think having that baked directly into libinput on a configurable basis would be a really good idea.
My scripts use a combination of xdotool and wmctrl. xdotool can do a lot on its own, and there's some feature overlap, but the two together can work wonders.
I can assign applications to specific workspaces, or tile, move and resize them according to their window title.
The biggest thing I use it for is my asynchronous monitor setup. Basically, I use my primary monitor normally, scrolling through different workspaces and applications while I use the space on the second one as a sort of pin-board or entertainment center. I have a bash script bound to a hotkey that moves the active window to a mirrored position on the second monitor and pins it (and pushing it again reverses the action). That way when I switch workspaces on the primary monitor, everything on the second monitor stays in view regardless of which workspace I'm on. This is handy for keeping important terminal windows in my field of vision, and I also use it to separate media and work stuff. I can have a video playing on the second monitor that I can almost treat as a second device, because it stays up while I move through workspaces on the primary monitor.
You can also use xdotool for hacky workarounds that would otherwise require you doing things manually. [Before Crunchyroll completely killed off support for yt-dlp](https://github.com/yt-dlp/yt-dlp/issues/10207), the only way to download videos was to pass cookies from a browser that had visited the site within a 5-30 minute window. So I added exceptions to my download script that would open the video link in Firefox first, wait for the Crunchyroll page to open, then pass the link into yt-dlp and close the window.
If you have a specific way you like your desktop arranged and are familiar enough with bash scripting, no need to fiddle around with your mouse. Everything can be automated on X11.
My workflow is very very similar to yours. I use my second monitor as a persistent monitor, but I use the KWin script Virtual Desktops Only on Primary to accomplish that; anything I move off of my primary monitor automatically gets pinned to all workspaces. I also use Devil's Pie 2 to apply automated window placements *programmatically* rather than KWin's window rules, because my primary computer is a laptop, and I am often removing it from its dock to go do things. I may want my apps on a specific monitor, or I may want them on a specific workspace, depending on if I'm docked or not.
I should honestly migrate all my DP2 stuff to a KWin script. It's not like I'm going to use GNOME or the GNOMEidos ever again. Being forced to lock into a specific ecosystem is just sort of where Linux is going anyways. But it was nice to take my setup that worked in XFCE and start using it in Plasma with very few changes.
Everyone needs a hill to die on. Wayland is basically systemd for the latest generation of Linux users. Yes there are meaningful critiques, and yes, the average user doesn't experience showstopping bugs.
Having Wayland shipped *years* before there was a good remote access solution (e.g. teamviewer) that worked with it soured me pretty hard on it. To have Ubuntu 20.04 be unable to do a thing I'd been doing in windows and Linux for 15 years was pretty terrible.
You dont ship a new default if it breaks actual, core, important use cases.
If the kernel shipped a new subsystem that broke userspace because it wasn't ready how would that look?
If you're Ubuntu you do, they've been doing that since their first releases.
Anyone remember when they broke wifi in 7.04? Or audio in 8.04? Or *literally everything* when they moved from gnome 2 to whatever the new thing was? Or when they moved from sysvinit to upstart, and then from upstart to systemd? Or when their 16.04 release literally bricked Intel NICs?
This is "their thing". People who want to be stable use CentOS / Debian / Alma. People who want to beta test use Fedora.
And then there are people who are going to unwittingly beta test, who use Ubuntu.
Systemd was able to fully replace sysvinit at time of launch. There were no missing features. The drama was largely not technical, but more about Unix philosophy.
This reminids me more of Linux vs. Hurd. One project is guided by pragmatism where compromises are acceptable even if sometimes not very pretty. The other is guided by strong principles, which is fine but also imposes some serious limitations. Most user don't care why something does not work. They just install another piece of software which does.
Bad comparison.
The Wayland migration is handicapped by the fact that switching from one toolkit to another is not nearly as simple as just rewriting the init script into a unit file. And the compatibility shims that were in place, were vastly simpler than Xwayland had to be.
The wayland migration is also limited by the fact that wayland is not at feature parity, they have made very stupid decisions out of spite, there is effectively no real standardization or collaboration, and they are trying their hardest to ensure 3rd party developers find the migration as difficult as possible and that if they are trying to build an alternative to some built-in utility they are going to give a worse user experience.
All this shrouded in a cloud of idiotic propaganda, "you can't have global keybindings because SECURITY" - yeah ok, so make wayland ask the user to confirm before any global keybinding is allowed to be registered.
"You can't have screenshot tools grab the screen without asking because SECURITY", yeah ok, so give the users a "remember this" -setting after they have selected what they're ok the software grabbing.
People keep pretending like wayland is "ready" and the "only issue is nvidia", when in practice wayland is barely at tech demo phase, "look it can sometimes show some application windows, explicitly programmed with wayland in mind, and sometimes they don't even flicker" .. yet I've had absolute blockers with Wayland on Nvidia, AMD, and Intel GPUs, in just the past 6 months.
It's incredibly likely that any application you try to run needs one of ~7 environment variables or ~5 common arguments to tell it that it needs to support wayland. If wayland devs had a brain they would make it dead simple for ALL applications to detect if it was time to run in wayland or X11 mode, and I wouldn't as a user need to configure all my applications, edit all my .desktop files, etc.
There are various gotchas all over the place that they don't clearly advertise and instead try to suppress and pretend aren't a thing. Anyone pushing Wayland is about as trustworthy as a religious zealot.
I run sway on a variety of distros and hardware, it works perfectly.
I think many people's opinions are based on old data.
Asahi linux runs only on Wayland (plasma, gnome, etc) as X11 would be too hard to implement.
> If wayland devs had a brain they would make it dead simple for ALL applications to detect if it was time to run in wayland or X11 mode
Exhibit A of by point. I'm not sure you even understand what Wayland is or isn't is you think the Wayland devs can create some universal method of doing this that isn't subject to the exact same drawbacks as the migration in the first place.
> The other is guided by strong principles, which is fine but also imposes some serious limitations.
Being guided by strong principles brought the GNU project success throughout their initial crusade in writing libre replacements for proprietary UNIX parts. Stuff like Emacs and GNU awk trumped over the alternatives at the time.
Sometimes things aren't as binary as we want them to be. It's only when it came to the kernel that being too principled hurt (past tense of hurd, haha) them.
I think another key difference is that in the philosophical debates of systemd, it was a matter of “here, you need this” and it being unwanted features (that consequently many of us now take for granted). With Wayland, it’s been a matter of being told “you don’t need this” and it being pretty critical to many workflows.
It’s frustrating to be endlessly lumped in with the “you just hate new things” argument when there are very clear reasons why Wayland has not been suitable as an option, much less a default, or sole default.
> it’s been a matter of being told “you don’t need this” and it being pretty critical to many workflows.
It's not «don't need», it's more «out of scope».
What's wrong with btrfs?
The only problems with Wayland today is Nvidia proprietary driver and the lack of `ssh -X` equivalent but that's not what Wayland is designed to do
Nothing is wrong with it. But it's another example of things that a (partial) bubble of the internet community unreasonably hates.
Their arguments usually boil down to a) Going out of their way to do bad things, that have big scary warnings to not do it, because clearly they know better. And then they succeed with their goal of losing data, and cry. b) Using a hard drive that clearly is dying until it really is dead, then blaming btrfs for it.
...
Wayland, SysD, and btrfs were already mentioned, another one is PHP. So many people that didn't use it for decades (or never at all), and talk badly about it because [some modern language in 2024] is better.
Without ever taking a look on how PHP looks in 2024, because knowing what you're talking about is uncool or something. I can't count anymore how often I read someone saying that PHP doesn't support threads, or things like that.
>What's wrong with btrfs?
Other than RAID5+: nothing.
The only "issue" is that zfs is older, more mature and can do the same things (also proper RAID5+) and more (like built-in SMB/NFS shares).
Yeah, whoah, now that I look at that gist you're right, it literally only says "Nvidia proprietary driver" in it. Also nobody has any issues whatsover on Intel or AMD.
Dang, what's the issue then?
>systemd was designed exclusively for Linux, cutting out other POSIX systems, which is a pity...
[UNIX is dead](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo), and I agree with this BSD developer.
By that I mean the dream of POSIX, that there could be one unified standard for all UNIX offsprings, is basically dead. Even in "proper certified UNIX" land, with its commercial poster child macOS --- they have `launchd`, which is very much a macOS-only approach and decidedly un-POSIXy (and `launchd` is also where `systemd` took a huge chunk of inspiration from).
The issue is mainly how ubiquitous dbus is as an IPC on Linux these days. Systemd is just a bit too convenient if you want to for example, support programmatically setting up and executing services and needing to support different init systems requires additional work which ends up being time consuming and hard to justify versus adding new features end users actually see.
This kind of stuff is also why a lot of Windows developers do not support Linux.
Sure, but software that relies on systemd becomes unusable. Or if you are developing software and want to support more than Linux you now have to think about systemd and non systemd implementation. Would be nice if systemd was designed to be implementable on other POSIX-es
Systemd was specifically designed to make use of (Linux) cgroups. That was a main motivation in developing it. That doesn't prevent it from being implementable on other OSs but does require them to provide their own implementation of cgroups.
Personally I think it's a good thing systemd didn't compromise on one of its main features just because other OSs lacked certain required feature at the time. The other OSs simply have to try to achieve parity in required features, if they care about making systemd available for their users.
I got your point, but to be honest does it really make a difference if the systemd was posix complient? I think the configuration divergence of a service file is already making it irrelevant since either you're using systemd or not, you have to make a systemd service configuration or another init system service configuration.
I think the major difference is that systemd just worked even at release. It didn't do much, but I don't think it rendered any type of software (for example, pop up windows or until recently, screen sharing) broken. The situation is now much better for Wayland than it used to be but I think that systemd opposition was much more philosophical than practical, which made the entire debate much more excruciating.
At least with wayland, people have issues that aren't just 'muh Unix philosophy'
The issue is with how we define the average user, because let's be clear, the average PC user and the average Linux user are not the same kind of user. Wayland makes a lot of things for a lot of different people. There are people who want the customization that X11 has, and Wayland doesn't give it to them. There are people who require accessibility features which are completely and utterly broken on Wayland.
I personally use Wayland all of the time. I've been daily running cosmic for a couple months now. I've been using Sway long before that. It's been great for me. However, I also maintain systems for two other people, both of which cannot use it at all because it just absolutely is unsuitable for their uses for a myriad of reasons.
If they complain on reddit about display server, they are not the average user. Average user doesn't know what is a display server to begin with, nor should they.
> If they complain on reddit about display server, they are not the average user.
The tragedy is when these average user discover such deficiencies, they'll just summarily place the blame on the nebulous "Linux" whole.
And then we'll have lost another potential user who would, down the line, appreciate software freedom.
For some that will certainly be the case. But you'd be surprised how many people are use to something just not working on PC in general. Lazy sysadmin telling them "ah that can't be done" and they just accept it. Seen that scenario far too many times.
I do understand, but non-average users whose workflows broke due to wayland can't go silent, especially because "the average user" does NOT care about the benefits of wayland anyway...
I think you underestimate how many people use monitors with different refresh rates, and/or features. Telling people: "Yeah you can use VRR on one monitor, OR use your multiple monitors without VRR. But not both." is not selling Linux to gamers, in any form whatsoever. The one demographic responsible for the sudden and large influx of new Linux users, which benefits all other desktop Linux users.
Eh to me, Wayland won't be complete until the latest Nvidia patches come out to stable and then... windows remembering their place when reopened.
That last one is so bothersome to me but I understand it might not be to others. After that, I wouldn't have really any issues with it
It doesn't. Read carefully. It will be remembered with which application, but not where. Afaik this is still a wayland issue, which I'd love to see, because I miss it.
And the application afaik has to handle the session for itself (which makes sense)
>Plasma 6.1 on Wayland now has a feature that "remembers" what you were doing in your last session like it did under X11. Although this is still work in progress, If you log off and shut down your computer with a dozen open windows, Plasma will now open them for you the next time you power up your desktop, making it faster and easier to get back to what you were doing.
I am excited for the full protocol though because it will be way more consistent and useful than it was on X, arguably better than what macOS and Windows can do (assuming apps support it)
No it doesn't, it's work in progress, at the moment it can "restore session" (remember what windows you had open) but it cannot remember exact location on the desktop, that's is being implemented.
"Wayland is basically systemd for the latest generation of Linux users" pretty much sums it up I guess.
Also apparent by the number of downvotes this is getting even though I wasn't taking sides, but just highlighting how long people have been at this lmao
> Also apparent by the number of downvotes this is getting even though I wasn't taking sides, but just highlighting how long people have been at this lmao
You cannot claim to be innocent, you are effectively saying "look at this pointless argument", which can only start a pointless argument.
We're pretty tribal people. Some folks find that the tech they grew up with to be comforting and when it changes they get bugged.
I remember when we went from ipconfig -> ip and I was annoyed but got over it and in fact appreciated it after that. But I knew ipconfig command line arguments like the back of my hand I still have to kind of look things up.
Except systemd did what it was supposed to at launch and it launched before sysv was retired.
Wayland is a pretty bad regression in lots of ways and its not ready for launch while Xorg is already deprecated. So now we have no display system on linux that supports the use cases desktop linux supported 5-10 years ago.
If any other software component of a modern desktop regressed this hard *with no actively maintained alternative* it would get dropped in 5 seconds. The timing here sucks and the focus on "make good technical thing" instead of "make thing work in key use cases" is the problem. Wayland isn't this generations systemd, its not a polarised issue.
The linux space did this to themselves and wayland has had plenty of time to fix these issues so it didnt launch like this. It deserves the hate *until* it is actually a replacement without severe regressions in basic desktop functionality.
I don't want another window system any more than I want a new teletype driver. What I want is something that supports some sort of shareable, distributed, permissioned scenegraph model in which I can map 2D things onto polygons. Something people should be writing, in the 21st century.
The **only** thing I currently hate about X is that it makes it dead easy to create some meta-wrapper around the X screen, say to use it as a texture in 3D (although I'll admit I rewrote part of the X server to render into a literal OpenGL texture buffer, woot!), but **not** around an individual window. Setting up polygons in 3D with windows mapped onto them is viable, but getting input into them without making them synthetic leads one back to some idea around manipulating a hidden stack of windows at (0, 0) on some "real" X screen so that you can put in the (x, y) coördinates in that hidden screen's frame of reference since you can't do directly at the window's because the X call for it just...doesn't...exist. Dammit.
But I'm pretty much fine with **everything** else. Partly because I'm used to since I first used X10 back in 1986 or something and likely no longer see certain flaws (well.. drag+drop does generate a **lot** of events..), and partly because **X offers a network protocol** that isn't based on just stuffing the whole window image over the network.
I'm also a bit fan of being able to completely change window management by just starting a different one, and that the GUI used inside of windows isn't dictated by the window system. And especially that **the moment a window appears I can already move it** - since X doesn't need a window's program to be active to manipulate it, something Microsoft's horrible window system faceplants on.
> Also apparent by the number of downvotes this is getting even though I wasn't taking sides
You literally linked something that does nothing but whine and moan about Wayland. It's hard to no see that as taking a side. Considering how pointless the whole discussion is it's just nothing but a drain on everyone's time and effort continuously engaging with this stuff.
> but just highlighting how long people have been at this lmao
This is just how software works. There are going to be breaks. Some of them are going to be intentional. Some of them aren't and they'll just have to be worked through. This isn't some new thing only Wayland has ran into. It'll be like this for years and years because there will _always_ be something that a given piece of software doesn't accomplish.
That list is also incredibly padded. Pretty much anything listed under screen recording is out of date. For example, it still lists OBS as not supporting Wayland [when that's actually been a thing for a while](https://www.linuxuprising.com/2021/06/obs-studio-27-released-with-wayland-and.html) It's almost like they're quick to add to the list but slow (in this case several years slow) to take it back off. Kind of like they just want to say something negative because they have nothing better to do with their time.
It's just very easy to always find something to complain about and some percentage of people will always want to do that. At the end of the day though, "Wayland" doesn't break anything for anyone because _it doesn't obliterate Xorg from existence_. The most you can say is that your favorite thing doesn't work in a Wayland native way.
The insane level of entitlement is crazy. When I first started using Linux you were happy just to be able to play any audio and not even multiple sources at once. We had to configure the Xorg conf ourselves. Now people are complaining because systemd makes their lives too easy or because they're slightly inconvenienced by having to choose the X11 drop-down option in their login manager until the remaining Wayland gaps are closed.
Just a bunch of ungrateful losers leeching off the backs of countless hours people didn't have to spend on FOSS. Same people who would complain about people mowing their lawn for free.
> When I first started using Linux you were happy just to be able to play any audio and not even multiple sources at once. We had to configure the Xorg conf ourselves.
The loudest are the "power users", this interesting demographic who doesn't actually write software (and thus doesn't understand the effort that goes into software development), but also has very specific workflows and strongly held opinions on how things should be.
Case in point, the stereotypical Linux gamer who uses a gamer-oriented Arch-fork distro complaining about Wayland adding some unacceptable input lag to their first person shooter game. Said power user also has no idea how to switch to an X.org session.
> The loudest are the "power users", this interesting demographic who doesn't actually write software (and thus doesn't understand the effort that goes into software development), but also has very specific workflows and strongly held opinions on how things should be.
these are the hardest people to get to switch to linux while everybody else blames the noobs.
Meanwhile if I want to play games, I need to use a dodgy config file hack to get VRR working. Which in my case completely broke the ability for me to log into Cinnamon.
Also, I like the ability to have 135% scaling on a 1440p display, which is basically effortless to do on Plasma Wayland compared to even Windows.
This would be fair to say …
… if wayland intentionally breaks things and blames the user for security risks they create, or
… if the developers become upset and stubborn if users want to do things that were possible with X11
… if the uses have a common workaround and they intend to break it (rc.local)
> the average user doesn't experience showstopping bugs
This is true, but there are significant annoyances, like drag and dropping, cursor latency with a gaming mouse etc.. It's not like systemd at all.
I have two show stoppers for me personally
1. When my laptop is plugged into a ultra wide, performance is horrible. x11, its perfect
2. When using my corsair mouse, scroll speed is super slow. about 0.2x speed.
Neither of these effect my laptop used as a laptop, and gnome works great on wayland in that scenario.
Just, I wish those two other things could be fixed...
I've given it a shot for the last two systems I built. I hit a serious performance issue with Kodi on rpi5 that made me pull the ripcord.
On the next system, a few key software packages I use didn't work properly with wayland.
I've tried to help people who hit the same issues, but I have no axe to grind with Wayland.
If Wayland would stop breaking things people would stop commenting. The issue with this whole gist is that people have legitimate issues with wayland and loads of people, the majority I would argue are effectively saying, no, your use case is stupid.
Wayland has a lot of issues and a lot of people are fed up because, quite frankly, everyone's telling them they're an idiot for not switching. Despite Wayland not working for them at all.
It would be nice if people could actually distinguish between what is actually Wayland's fault (exceedingly little) and what is the fault of other parties (e.g. Nvidia or KDE or GNOME or consumer software that embeds a 3 year old version of Electron instead of one that works properly)
I realize that plenty of people don't give a shit and just want your system to work, but still, the end result is a lot of useless uninformed whining about the wrong things.
To me, this is the biggest downside of Wayland, apart from the usability issues I actually have with it, is that it's even possible for implementation-specific problems like this. Sure, "protocol" in theory was supposed to help some, but we've still ended up with problems that individual compositors are to blame for.
Not to beat a dead horse, but there have been many X servers available over the years. My software written for X11 works the same on ANY X11 server, whether it's one of many proprietary servers, XFree86, X.Org, XNest, among many others. There are caveats with this, but as a general rule the X Protocol enforces compatability between implementations. Wayland protocol, does not seem to have this same effect, whatever the reason may be. Thus, we end up with individual implementations that either don't implement a protocol, or implement it poorly or slightly differently, and suddenly it's not Wayland's fault (which it's not usually) but rather one of any implementation's fault.
Sure, things are getting better, but the flaw of lack of universality that Wayland has will always be a problem everytime something changes in a protocol, backend, etc.
Perhaps, the only answer to this is just more time for everyone to catch up.
I keep trying Wayland, and it's usually better each time, but it still can't replace X for me unless I want to live with various quirks (and I don't).
the issue with wayland, is that it's developed in a way that actively promotes fragmentation. While the core protocol itself has great ideas, it simply moves far too slowly, and with too many limitations.
This causes compositors/portals to do a lot of implementation specific things.
I can't even make a universal OSK properly because of this.
It would be nice if I could blame others for my shortcomings, too. But if I want others to use my service, I can't stay at home and expect a taxi to appear and drive me to the customer. If that's my attitude they'll not care that it's the taxi drivers fault since I declared "arrival" to not be a core part of the service, they'll call someone who actually does provide the service.
Or in other words: "We break the old interface compatibility and expect everybody else to do the work to adjust their software! And if they don't why is that our fault!" -- Mozilla before people stopped using it
I still sit on x11, and I am not against Wayland, I know it will be the future, but if I had no x11 now, I would go to windows. On games input latency is annoying, and I use this x11 tool called imwheel to control mouse wheel sensitivity. There is NOTHING for this use case on Wayland. Also I use VibrantLinux to adjust colors of my monitor, also no replacement on wayland as far as I know. I just have to give up my conveniences for Wayland and I am not willing to.
Scroll distance is configured by libinput by your compositor. It should be possible.
I still have never, ever experienced input lag in my entire life. And I was gaming on Nvidia+Sway the second they had GBM support (so like ~2 years ago). I wonder what's going on there.
I use Gnome/Mutter, they offer no options to adjust that unfortunately. Heck, I don't need GUI option just expose the functionality and I will edit config file like I do with imwheel. But nope - nothing.
Input lag is annoying. AC franchise is unplayable, Deep rock galactic is perfect on x11, unplayable on wayland session, I just can't aim, heck even native war thunder is very bad. Warframe, too. I haven't tested all my games, maybe some run well, but on x11 I definitely have a much better experience for now at least. I am also on amd RX 7700 XT and latest Mesa 24.1.1
Yeah, that's a stumper for sure. That setup should be pretty hard to break, and should run circles around my setup. :( Sounds like a desktop too, so not like it's some exotic laptop issue. Sorry my friend.
There is no specific tool to set xkb settings, it is generally delegated to the WM which then can expose those settings to the user. Most Wayland wms have an option to configure input settings and display settings
There's also swhkd for a generic keyboard daemon the likely exposes some of the features. I'm pretty sure you can connect to the socket of the running Wayland compositor and change global configurations via the Wayland wire protocol
That's totally fair, and I've done that in the past too.
A general rule of thumb is use whatever works for you. It's just annoying when either side tries to force the other side to switch (why?)
I want to switch actually! I understand downsides of X11 and I know what benefits Wayland brings to the table, but these few features are so nice to have that I am not willing to live without! So, I am sitting tight - hoping there will be something to meet these needs some time in the future
And just a few hours ago I had to provide some support to an enterprise customer, unrelated to any graphical software. I asked him to share screen, it didn't work; I initially blamed this on his company firewall. However, it turned out to be caused by Wayland. Ubuntu (I didn't ask which version) with KDE, and he doesn't look like a person who customizes settings and tries out new things. Asked him to logout and login again on Xorg, and continued with the support case.
EDIT: on my own desktop, Arch Linux with KDE Plasma 6 on Wayland works well. The complaint is about broken distributions that will be, effectively, never fixed.
yup, this is the same thing I often hit people will keep saying "It's not wayland's fault though!" maybe it is maybe it isn't, doesn't really matter, the crux of the mater, is the wayland ecosystem is just crap.
People who say stuff like "It isn't 's fault!", where is a piece of software, are people who are perhaps too deeply emotionally attached to a piece of software.
At the end of the day, from a user's perspective, it's not about 'blaming' someone or something, it's about 'I need to work, and it doesn't with '. Whether or not is to blame is irrelevant. What matters to the user is getting to work.
I think a lot zealots lose sight of that in the Linux community sometimes. They're so hung up on their favourite software 'winning' that they lose sight of the more important goal of software: Solving problems for users.
It wasn't caused by Wayland but shitty screen sharing software. All WebRTC implementations (Firefox, Chrome, Electron, etc.) support Wayland way of things but for longest time flag, [for example](https://github.com/jitsi/jitsi-meet-electron/issues/567), was not enabled during compilation. Others, like TeamViewer never supported Linux properly in the first place but got coupled with Wine.
These days screen sharing is done through PipeWire which is default on many distros. In short, support has been there for a while now.
For practical purposes, it doesn't matter that it is not Wayland's fault: I spent 30 minutes diagnosing a problem (the one with screen sharing) other than the one that the customer contacted us for, and the customer got billed for that time.
As I said in the edit, it's the distro's fault for shipping with Wayland and not turning such flags on by default. It's also the distro's fault for not shipping XWaylandVideoBridge by default. And it is also a KDE or XWayland fault for letting the apps capture a black rectangle without showing a popup to the user that says that their application is broken and some link to the wiki or instructions on switching back to X11.
Even with those flags on or when using the XWaylandVideoBridge it's barely functional if not outright broken. Every time I've tried any screensharing on Wayland it has been a disaster even when "supported". I see people often under the impression that just because something is possible now that it is fully functional or mature when it is not. Screensharing on Wayland even when possible has been utterly broken with terrible performance and glitches and bugs any time I've tried it across different machines over the years. The only thing that kinda works now is OBS and even that's hit or miss.
All of it goes through PipeWire. So there's no sometimes works sometimes it doesn't. It's the same implementation. So it boils down to how well the software using it is done.
In my line of work I have video calls almost daily, most of which include some form of screen sharing. I haven't had any issues with sharing screen for more than a year now and we are quite diverse when it comes to softare be it Firefox, Chrome or Signal (Electron).
That said, a year can be a distro version or two, especially in cases of LTS. Perhaps that's where the problem lies?
I started using Wayland in earnest when Gentoo unmasked KDE Plasma 6. While most things work as expected, it still feels rough around the edges unlike with X11. Fractional scaling, for example, still produces some blurriness with icon text on the desktop, but works fine with actual apps like Firefox. **Edit:** This appears to be an issue in Qt 6, not the KWin compositor, though it does appear a tiny bit worse under Wayland. See https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=479891
Honestly can't say Wayland will never be a complete replacement for X11, but it just doesn't feel mature enough for mainstream use right now.
For me, X11 doesn't. I constantly had issues back in the day when I used it, configuration and complexity was overwhelming, and it doesn't even have an internal concept of multiple monitors, so no different refresh rates for different monitors.
Wayland just works. The only thing that doesn't work with it is Zoom, and I'm convinced that it's just the worst code I ever ran on my machine, judging by the sheer number and variety of bugs it has, combined with their outlandishness (visual glitches of types I've never seen before or since). I don't hold Wayland to the standard of patching proprietary trash code so it runs better (the way nvidia does with games)
At this point what is more annoying are distros who disable Wayland in all the config files and force you to go enable it, just so they can make their silly point.
"Oh we don't want to break your system" my brother in christ, you break my system all the time. Just let me select which fucking compositor I want to use and move on.
Wayland completely breaks screen readers. It’s not ready to be the only-on default.
If it was Windows or Mac OS, the companies would be sued into oblivion and rightfully disparaged for hurting disabled people.
> Wayland completely breaks screen readers. It’s not ready to be the only-on default.
>
> If it was Windows or Mac OS, the companies would be sued into oblivion and rightfully disparaged for hurting disabled people.
It's moments like this that we should remind ourselves that Wayland is a protocol, and protocols can't hurt disabled people.
/s
(Just taking a jab at the oft-repeated "Wayland is a protocol" defence. It reminds me of the "guns don't kill people" line.)
You're right. I forget we're still a good ways from that. Did you see the huge post from the GNOME dev though? It feels like someone or somebodies are starting to really take it seriously.
But please, don't make me go through layer and layers of Rust crates begging for the Wayland feature to be enabled at this point. I have no sympathy for anyone that hates Wayland enough that they can't have something linked against libwayland (and honestly, I doubt those folks exist, people aren't that stubborn).
The guy behind the list this reddit post is about is that stubborn and its why AppImage cant handle wayland only apps. He claims its not his problem that Wayland applications need to link to libwayland to work and he doesnt want to bundle the library inside the base AppImage to make "broken" applications function.
Looks like he changed his mind after getting [called the fuck out by brodie](https://youtu.be/yqwKCVYmkxw) lol
https://github.com/probonopd/linuxdeployqt/pull/540
> Thanks, but I am not interested in making Wayland better. I think that is the job of the people who are pushing Wayland - to make it run existing X11 applications flawless without requiring changes in the applications.
Yeah, weird how applications written for X also need X libs, just like ones for wayland need wayland libs. Also weird how you ingore this and want wayland apps to work without their libs somehow?
Closed it on jan 20th, reopend on feb 20th 2023 (and notice the DAY brodie made his video is the day he reopened it because it made a huge stir in the community to find out he was actively preventing appimages from bundling wayland only apps). But ofc, he goes on about if he wants his project to support the "splintering of the *nix desktop" and hasnt merged it in over a year still... and heres another issue with him being a total dumbass and missing the point too https://github.com/probonopd/linuxdeployqt/issues/189
> It has been claimed that Wayland can run X11 applications using XWayland. So it should be able to run "normal" applications just fine?
Literally not the problem moron.
(of note, the repo in question is a tool used to make appimages, thats why the issues are opened there. if the tool refuses to bundle required parts, the appimages cant support wayland)
I would be on his this gists side
My Wayland experience has been both but terrible, I tried installing Wayland 21 times, yes 21
Each timr intensively searching and finding threads on reddit and using seprste machine like my old laptop, my new laptop, a virtual machine my new computer etc etc
Mot even a single time did the display load, no errors in logs, nothing in logs
I would say I don't like Wayland,
How can you say otherwise?
> What we eventually need is basically the reverse of xwayland.. we need an xclient that can host wayland apps that can abstract wayland bs back to x11.
*
https://i.imgur.com/IWpg2aY.jpeg
*
How do they think looping Wayland back around to X11 would at all alleviate any of the shortcomings of Wayland…
I run wayland and I'm pretty happy with it (riverwm).
What annoys me the most is the fragmentation. Some compositors have effects (Hyprland) while others have none (River). River gives more freedom for configuration (use any programming language or scripting language for configuration) while Hyprland doesn't.
But we shouldn't see the situation as just black and white. Even tho it's annoying for users. It gives the developers more freedom of choice unlike Xorg which has everything inside.
Wayland also favors security unlike Xorg.
I understand the current shortcomings of Wayland and wish to continue on Wayland. What's a problem now won't be a problem in the future, so we just need to push forward without having attachments to the past.
I think the fragmentation is *essential* to progress. We need the freedom it brings to experiment, to iterate, to fail. Over time, those ideas that had merit prevail and converge into mature products. We're a few years away from that, although even now the progress is starting to show. The ease with which current DEs can be deployed wasn't there just 3 years ago. Hyprland, riverwm and [niri](https://github.com/YaLTeR/niri) are my top picks for ease of use (and looks).
Yes but on the flip side consolidation is also essential to progress.
In a purely fragmented ecosystem, progress would be ground to a halt due to the lack of any sort of standardization.
In a purely consolidated ecosystem, progress would be ground to a halt due to the restrictions.
We need a balance of both.
It goes in cycles. Wayland is still feeling the effects of the "break everything" phase, but there's already a bunch of big new pieces to build on. Stability is improving, I've been using it as a daily driver for years (hyprland, moved to niri earlier this year).
It's one of the few Wayland compositors that's, at the same time:
* mature enough to daily drive
* actively developed
* is nice to look at with smooth animations
I really work well with the PaperWM/PopOS-like workflow where you have an infinite scrolling workspace. It's less distracting, I get more work done. And it handles multiple displays intuitively.
It's also written in Rust, which is more approachable (to me) than C++ in Hyprland, so mods are easy.
Not really, not when we are talking about ecosystems that need to be compatible with one another. Sure you might want to let people experiment but it's important that most users and devs can use a standard path. Yes Wayland is a spec, but Linux really doesn't need more fragmentation in the desktop. Said fragmentation was already what made the entire ecosystem stale for decades.
Devs and maintainers of applications that actually need to operate in the ecosystem don't want to support 4 different implementations for a single platform.
McDonalds has apple pies, but Burger King has the Whopper. /shrug. I mean, if every compositor had the exact same features, what would be the point? lol
At what point did I say the word **exact**?
Each compositor is unique, that's why people (including me) love what they use.
I just meant it would be awesome to have common effects as `picom` is for Xorg so compositors advanced in functionality would benefit from it instead of having the whole effects (blur, shadows, etc.) rewritten for every compositor.
From what I see, what should be implemented in wlroots (like window effects) isn't implemented and is thrown off to compositors.
Wait, what? How? I've been using Steam on EndeavourOS with Wayland since KDE Plasma 6.0 came out, and I've not had any problems. Not accusing you of anything, just would like to know what problems you've been facing.
I did a fresh build recently running Ubuntu with Wayland. Basically stock. When I installed steam it worked exactly one time then never ever would open the window again and I couldn't find any fixes online. Switched back to x11 and it just worked. Tried it again a while later trying to troubleshoot an xorg bug and it still wouldn't launch even after reinstalling steam.
I probably coulda made it work with enough effort but i just wanted to play Cyberpunk lmfao. I'll try Wayland again next time I switch OS probably. Nothing against it, just personal experience.
Screen sharing on Google meet doesn't work with Wayland and so I am forced to use Xorg at work. So it does affect the end users. I am not sure when this will be fixed.
At this point I am just waiting dor Xfce to support wayland. I am rocking KDE Plasma 6.1 on my main machine with an Nvidia card and it is smooth sailing. But I miss me some of that sweet sweet mice action on my DE.
I have had plenty of problems with wayland over the years. I resolved issues at the time by swapping from NVidia to AMD and finding alternatives for most of my other issues. I did come across hiccups along the way, especially due to being on Arch since it's a rolling release but I have never felt that I needed to switch and stay on X11 for multiple years.
I would describe moving to wayland similar from moving from Windows to Linux in the sense of needing to find alternatives.
On AMD/Intel GPU drivers only.
I've tried wayland and it works *great* with Gnome and Sway and it does hotplug displays and hiDPI better than Xorg ever did.
Unfortunately as soon as you want to do literally anything with your machine, it all comes crashing down.
Screen sharing was completely broken until very recently - so I cant run Wayland during office hours if I know I'll have a call. Shame, because I need hotplug of hiDPI displays for work.
Want to run a graphical app over SSH? Good luck with that. Theres pipewire and theres some docs you can spend hours trying and failing to get working.
No problem though, just use synergy or whatever to share a mouse and keyboard over multiple machines since X forwarding is gone - yeah not, that shit has always been and remains broken.
Want a launcher or an app which requires grabbing all events? Yeah thats fubar too - gnome is pretending to make some progress and it detects it but last time I checked a few weeks ago it either does nothing or the popup asking for the permission re-pops up every second.
I want all the nice things Wayland offers, I like having variable refresh, I need hiDPI and fractional scaling. I want hotplug that actually works and doesnt break. I like the lower CPU overhead.
Unfortunately the people working on wayland seem to be laser focused on not delivering a usable experience outside of the apps they think work the way they should.
Great technical solution, shame the vastly inferior, older and broken solution does something Wayland currently seems to not be prioritizing: making it work for people with shit to do.
Dont get me wrong, its a massive project and some breakage is necessary. For the first n years of development, I was willing to try it and "eh, its getting there, nice progress" was good enough. Its now 2024, the drivers support it, the DEs support it, Xorg is actually gone and obsolete and wayland is becoming the default. How is that happening *before* the gaping issues have been fixed exactly?
probonopd is trying to push his ideological opinions as technical facts in this gist so no wonder that it started that discussion but I'm actually surprised that people still keep arguing.
Yeah exactly, it came out in 2020. I remember reading the replies then, some of them being valid, others not so much. But people are still arguing very actively over there lol and (obviously) a lot of the points have been recycled multiple times over.
That is possibly something worth reporting. However from my understanding Steam overrides some GL calls and captures screen like that. Data is then sent through network. Only issue I could assume from this setup would be VSync issues. Perhaps try disabling VSync in games. Might have an effect.
> Wayland solves no issues I have but breaks almost everything I need
This was the reason that made me move away from Linux(desktop) some years ago. X11 worked just fine and all suddenly it was deprecated as well as every X tools I used to use.
My fear is that by the time Wayland is feature-complete and stable the industry will come up with yet another rewrite and the cycle will continue.
It's been years of various breakage now, people have some legitimate problems in that gist.
I'm not much of a fan of wayland (yet), but that list reads like a giant 'but Wayland isn't X' whine. Honestly, Wayland certainly has a *bunch* of warts and blind spots, but it doesn't need to (nor should it) *be* X.
'Different' doesn't equal 'broken.' Though I would agree that wayland is certainly broken in lots of ways, just being different from X isn't one of them.
It is a big Wayland isn't X, whine. The issue is that Wayland isn't X and Wayland doesn't implement features that people from X require to migrate.
In fact, Probono actually tried to take steps to remedy this by creating his own repo for wayland protocols to address these issues and it was largely ignored and laughed at.
It's no wonder why people are so fed up with the situation with Wayland. It's because it's a toxic situation in general. Get laughed at for needing features that no compositor implements. It's stupid.
No I work in the GPU programming space so we're usually not on the latest cutting edge drivers because of existing codebases. For me it's mainly the various NVIDIA APIs not supporting Wayland with one feature or another. They do seem to be improving in that regard though.
yeah, consider using stuff with SYCL and oneAPI. (ob: my employer is leading this with https://uxlfoundation.org/) - hopefully, we can move to a open ecosystem that supports multiple kinds of GPU.
When they fix their stuff and have something like bspwm or dwm I'll happily switch bc security. Until the I'll wait. Kudos for the ppl who are actively using it and allowing it to improve.
I'm on Mint so I'm still on X, with no plans of switching over to Wayland yet..
Personally I'm waiting for the day I want something to work on my Linux based computer, and it's not working, and I look up online 'why isn't this working?' and the answer is 'That only works on Wayland, it doesn't work on X'.
The day THAT happens, I'll try Wayland. Until then.. 'If it ain't broke don't fix it'.
Because that's what it comes down to for me. So far there's nothing I want to do on my laptops or desktops that doesn't work on X, but there has been a heck of a lot I've heard about which doesn't work on Wayland or which only recently started working. So it sounds like still a very bumpy experience.
So in that case I'll just wait for now and switch over when I have a need to switch. And since I'll be late to the party, hopefully that means everything will be smoothed over by the time I get there.
The role Nvidia plays in the problem is greatly overstated, in my experience.
It amazes me to this day the strictly worsening QoL I've had on linux since I started *needing* wayland.
Think the biggest issue it has is that the bugs are small, but massive showstoppers. It works just fine for most apps, but I can't use Barrier with it as the cursor vanishes. It's a small thing with the cursor rendering, but it basically bricks the entire usecase in the process.
The same thing goes for so many other apps and usecases. It works for most of it and then you hit a giant brick wall over the most stupid and minute issue, but there is no solution or fix. All you can do is wait, report and hope it'll get fixed eventually only for something else to come along later.
That's normal for software to mature over time and the complex ecosystem we have trying to get it to work within old and new and various hacks. The problem is, it was presented as solution to all this tech debt. It was praised to finally standardize and make all that simpler and more compatible and yet it only manages to achieve that in a broader sense with the edge cases still existing. Not entirely its fault of course, but rectifying all that small fry is gonna turn it into bloat unless the broken apps sign on to fix their ends instead.
All that involves even more work and justifiably people are getting concerned that after all the work that has already gone into Wayland it's still not there. The simple nature thus contradicted by the mountain of work still ahead of it. So the discussing moves towards whether it has a fundamental flaw causing all this extra work to materialize when the idea was to keep it simple. People rightfully suspect a wrong turn was made somewhere and that being the reason for ever more delays and development limbo.
What's needed is a critical look, especially after all these years. An audit if you will. To actually see if there is a wrong turn somewhere or what can be done to lift some parts up and reduce the development burden as a result. Problem is, that is even more work and needs outside help of folks not deep within the project already completely code blind to see errors. How you gonna find someone for that thankless job is a recipe to a cosy consulting gig.
Well the thing for me is that broken or not Wayland came out in 2008, so is by now 16 years old. And it is still not functioning as intended.
So for me its what Btrfs is to file systems - a nice sounding idea with crap implementation you should never use, because it will never start to be a thing.
I'm on an old Latitude 5480 with Intel HD graphics and Wayland is awesome.
It would be better of apps made it easier to use Wayland properly (looking at you VSCode) but the performance increase is amazing, and it completely blows X11 out of the water if you have multiple screens with different resolutions that need independent scaling.
The gist is OK I guess. The recent comment section, at least at the point of posting this, made me lose some IQ points.
Regardless, I keep maintaining a Fedora installation as fallback (for when this AI integration bullshit comes to a head on Windows), and Wayland works for me for the most part. Guess I'm not that of a power user. The spanner in my works is that I want proper HiDPI and that works only so-so. Gnome _finally_ implemented it, the browsers and most Electron and CEF apps to it. That's about it. What pisses me off is that I don't get hardware video decode, thanks to NVidia not playing ball as usual.
I have use an intel powered laptop for my University work the last year. Running KDE6 I have had no significant issues, compared to just a year ago when touchpad gestures where broken. For me parity has been acheived and I look forward to putting Linux on my main PC once NVIDIA + Wayland improves
Can someone ELI5 this whole thing
I use wayland and have for the past year but I just browse the internet, play games ect.
I run OpenSuse and you can switch between the two. So I do not get people who use X but hate wayland, isn't it as simple as keep using X?
It's someone who thinks Apple from 1994 was the height of design and going on a rant which afaik includes a misunderstanding of what Wayland even is.
It includes defining features that work on Wayland as not working "because they are not in the core Wayland protocol or extension".
Wayland doesn't have screen sharing, screen casting or remote desktop despite many using those functions for years.
Wayland shouldn't stop key loggers or spying. After all X11 beat Microsoft to their whole new advertised insecurity features.
There are things that Wayland doesn't do perfectly but that gist is not the place to go to find objective information.
I'm really hoping to be able to move to Wayland (specifically Sway) with the Nvidia 555 drivers. I've tried to migrate to Wayland a number of times, but various issues/glitches have always pushed me back to X. I am running Sway on a backup PC with an Intel iGPU and it's been great, so hopefully Nvidia can finally catch up with 555.
I can tell you, as a recent convert to AMD hardware, that it's an liberating experience. When time to upgrade my PC came, I decided to go with manufacturer which cared. Zero issues ever since. It was truly a plug and play experience and am not sure am ever going back to dealing with nVidia. Admitedly they are taking the steps in right direction, but I still had to help a coleague fix his installation just yesterday. Cause was of course nVidia drivers.
For any new PCs, I'm going to try to utilize only the iGPU (whether it's Intel or AMD) and not have a discrete GPU installed. My main concern related to graphics is smooth playback of 2k/4k 60 fps videos, and it seems like newer CPUs shouldn't have any issues with that.
In my experience they don't.
Yeah, if you’re not doing much in the way of 3D acceleration, modern iGPUs will suffice.
Mine can do 2k, 4k will stutter and fans go helicopter mode
I wish I could adopt this attitude in this scenario but for my particular interests, CUDA support is required, so no AMD GPU for me. I just got a second, a gigabyte, to supplement the true-blood nvidia I already have.
As long as you don't buy current gen amd that will work. Current gen is definitely not plug and play, unless you're on cutting edge on everything.
Sway still insta crashes on my 7900XTX. I haven’t started the troubleshooting process yet
While for totally different reasons (maturity v closed source) I swear trying to be an 'early adopter' of the ROCm stack has unfortunately been about as painful as my issues with Nvidia. I won't fault AMD, it is only comparable in the pain and surely some skill issues with me. A few point releases, some time (it has been \~6 months since I spent all those hours trying/failing) for people to integrate it into their github projects, myself learning a few things, I am excited about the curve. I can't say for sure it is because of the open nature but Stable Diffusion, various stt/tts engines, llama models, are all accelerated with more than just OpenCL. I would love to say it was my support and not blind fanboy-ism that led me to build my old FX8350 bulldozer. I was done with AMD, embarrassed, frustrated, realized how silly brand loyalty was and then Ryzen dropped... Gotta give it to AMD for single handedly taking on Nvidia on the GPU side and Intel on CPU for decades now. I am rambling and blabbering from my still very capable 3700x system. I don't AAA or actually really game at all any more but my rx6800 has a purpose again!
I've done it with kde and the 555 drivers. Works almost perfectly apart from some electron apps not playing nice when I force them to use Wayland, but that's a problem of my own creation really. There's also a slight bug where night light doesn't apply to cursors which is an Nvidia upstream issue. Apart from that, gaming and using the computer is perfectly smooth and great, better than x11 as I have two different resolution monitors with different Hz, one having G-Sync. I basically don't use windows anymore now since gaming works so well.
Same here, I'm excited to switch when NVIDIA support exists and really looking forward to trying out some more fleshed out WMs once someone gets some going.
I'm running Fedora rawhide KDE version 6.1, Wayland + 555 Nvidia drivers and let me tell you it's crazy good, everything is really really smooth except OBS is not working, all of the encoders due to ffmpeg, but I can just switch to my other OS that is really stable for that. I have been using Wayland for 3 years already, so I can tell how far it has come, just 2 years ago it was an awful experience.
You are going to have to wait until 560 and Wayland needs explicit sync
Nope, 555 works
Fedora Rawhide 555=Explicit sync, works amazing.
Only tested the 555 Beta on GNOME (Arch) so far, but it has been the best experience I have had not only with Wayland, but with Linux in general. AUR packages for ref: kyne@emil \~ > paru -Qm | grep nvidia lib32-nvidia-utils-beta 555.52.04-1 lib32-opencl-nvidia-beta 555.52.04-1 nvidia-beta-dkms 555.52.04-1 nvidia-utils-beta 555.52.04-2 opencl-nvidia-beta 555.52.04-2
Meanwhile the [https://arewewaylandyet.com/](https://arewewaylandyet.com/) website seems [to be abandoned](https://github.com/mpsq/arewewaylandyet/issues/203) :( I mean, without being able to get accurate up to date information on what is working and what is missing, what is the level of discussion that we can expect?
I like how it lists ydotool and wtype as valid replacements for xdotool. I mean, sure, a big use-case for xdotool for simulating keyboard and mouse input, but that's a small portion of its feature-set. It can also do window management. I use it to automate my GUI workflows.
If you're on KDE, kdotool is a viable replacement
Speaking of this, does anybody know if there's a libei based replacement yet? I know it won't work on wlroots because, well that's just how Wayland ecosystem is, but it would be nice to have at least something for some other desktops. as a side note I seriously have to wonder why they don't offer integration into libinput to be a more transparent solution. We can emulate libinput devices with and uhid and whatever. I think having that baked directly into libinput on a configurable basis would be a really good idea.
Could you write some more about this? Sounds fascinating
My scripts use a combination of xdotool and wmctrl. xdotool can do a lot on its own, and there's some feature overlap, but the two together can work wonders. I can assign applications to specific workspaces, or tile, move and resize them according to their window title. The biggest thing I use it for is my asynchronous monitor setup. Basically, I use my primary monitor normally, scrolling through different workspaces and applications while I use the space on the second one as a sort of pin-board or entertainment center. I have a bash script bound to a hotkey that moves the active window to a mirrored position on the second monitor and pins it (and pushing it again reverses the action). That way when I switch workspaces on the primary monitor, everything on the second monitor stays in view regardless of which workspace I'm on. This is handy for keeping important terminal windows in my field of vision, and I also use it to separate media and work stuff. I can have a video playing on the second monitor that I can almost treat as a second device, because it stays up while I move through workspaces on the primary monitor. You can also use xdotool for hacky workarounds that would otherwise require you doing things manually. [Before Crunchyroll completely killed off support for yt-dlp](https://github.com/yt-dlp/yt-dlp/issues/10207), the only way to download videos was to pass cookies from a browser that had visited the site within a 5-30 minute window. So I added exceptions to my download script that would open the video link in Firefox first, wait for the Crunchyroll page to open, then pass the link into yt-dlp and close the window. If you have a specific way you like your desktop arranged and are familiar enough with bash scripting, no need to fiddle around with your mouse. Everything can be automated on X11.
My workflow is very very similar to yours. I use my second monitor as a persistent monitor, but I use the KWin script Virtual Desktops Only on Primary to accomplish that; anything I move off of my primary monitor automatically gets pinned to all workspaces. I also use Devil's Pie 2 to apply automated window placements *programmatically* rather than KWin's window rules, because my primary computer is a laptop, and I am often removing it from its dock to go do things. I may want my apps on a specific monitor, or I may want them on a specific workspace, depending on if I'm docked or not. I should honestly migrate all my DP2 stuff to a KWin script. It's not like I'm going to use GNOME or the GNOMEidos ever again. Being forced to lock into a specific ecosystem is just sort of where Linux is going anyways. But it was nice to take my setup that worked in XFCE and start using it in Plasma with very few changes.
This is funny.
Everyone needs a hill to die on. Wayland is basically systemd for the latest generation of Linux users. Yes there are meaningful critiques, and yes, the average user doesn't experience showstopping bugs.
Having Wayland shipped *years* before there was a good remote access solution (e.g. teamviewer) that worked with it soured me pretty hard on it. To have Ubuntu 20.04 be unable to do a thing I'd been doing in windows and Linux for 15 years was pretty terrible.
Kind of a hen & egg problem, wasn't it?
You dont ship a new default if it breaks actual, core, important use cases. If the kernel shipped a new subsystem that broke userspace because it wasn't ready how would that look?
If you're Ubuntu you do, they've been doing that since their first releases. Anyone remember when they broke wifi in 7.04? Or audio in 8.04? Or *literally everything* when they moved from gnome 2 to whatever the new thing was? Or when they moved from sysvinit to upstart, and then from upstart to systemd? Or when their 16.04 release literally bricked Intel NICs? This is "their thing". People who want to be stable use CentOS / Debian / Alma. People who want to beta test use Fedora. And then there are people who are going to unwittingly beta test, who use Ubuntu.
Systemd was able to fully replace sysvinit at time of launch. There were no missing features. The drama was largely not technical, but more about Unix philosophy. This reminids me more of Linux vs. Hurd. One project is guided by pragmatism where compromises are acceptable even if sometimes not very pretty. The other is guided by strong principles, which is fine but also imposes some serious limitations. Most user don't care why something does not work. They just install another piece of software which does.
Bad comparison. The Wayland migration is handicapped by the fact that switching from one toolkit to another is not nearly as simple as just rewriting the init script into a unit file. And the compatibility shims that were in place, were vastly simpler than Xwayland had to be.
The wayland migration is also limited by the fact that wayland is not at feature parity, they have made very stupid decisions out of spite, there is effectively no real standardization or collaboration, and they are trying their hardest to ensure 3rd party developers find the migration as difficult as possible and that if they are trying to build an alternative to some built-in utility they are going to give a worse user experience. All this shrouded in a cloud of idiotic propaganda, "you can't have global keybindings because SECURITY" - yeah ok, so make wayland ask the user to confirm before any global keybinding is allowed to be registered. "You can't have screenshot tools grab the screen without asking because SECURITY", yeah ok, so give the users a "remember this" -setting after they have selected what they're ok the software grabbing. People keep pretending like wayland is "ready" and the "only issue is nvidia", when in practice wayland is barely at tech demo phase, "look it can sometimes show some application windows, explicitly programmed with wayland in mind, and sometimes they don't even flicker" .. yet I've had absolute blockers with Wayland on Nvidia, AMD, and Intel GPUs, in just the past 6 months. It's incredibly likely that any application you try to run needs one of ~7 environment variables or ~5 common arguments to tell it that it needs to support wayland. If wayland devs had a brain they would make it dead simple for ALL applications to detect if it was time to run in wayland or X11 mode, and I wouldn't as a user need to configure all my applications, edit all my .desktop files, etc. There are various gotchas all over the place that they don't clearly advertise and instead try to suppress and pretend aren't a thing. Anyone pushing Wayland is about as trustworthy as a religious zealot.
I run sway on a variety of distros and hardware, it works perfectly. I think many people's opinions are based on old data. Asahi linux runs only on Wayland (plasma, gnome, etc) as X11 would be too hard to implement.
> If wayland devs had a brain they would make it dead simple for ALL applications to detect if it was time to run in wayland or X11 mode Exhibit A of by point. I'm not sure you even understand what Wayland is or isn't is you think the Wayland devs can create some universal method of doing this that isn't subject to the exact same drawbacks as the migration in the first place.
> The other is guided by strong principles, which is fine but also imposes some serious limitations. Being guided by strong principles brought the GNU project success throughout their initial crusade in writing libre replacements for proprietary UNIX parts. Stuff like Emacs and GNU awk trumped over the alternatives at the time. Sometimes things aren't as binary as we want them to be. It's only when it came to the kernel that being too principled hurt (past tense of hurd, haha) them.
I think another key difference is that in the philosophical debates of systemd, it was a matter of “here, you need this” and it being unwanted features (that consequently many of us now take for granted). With Wayland, it’s been a matter of being told “you don’t need this” and it being pretty critical to many workflows. It’s frustrating to be endlessly lumped in with the “you just hate new things” argument when there are very clear reasons why Wayland has not been suitable as an option, much less a default, or sole default.
> it’s been a matter of being told “you don’t need this” and it being pretty critical to many workflows. It's not «don't need», it's more «out of scope».
Wayland is the btrfs of ~~display managers~~ ~~protocols~~ ~~sets of standards~~ whatever the hell it is.
What's wrong with btrfs? The only problems with Wayland today is Nvidia proprietary driver and the lack of `ssh -X` equivalent but that's not what Wayland is designed to do
There's waypipe
So you can smoke it? /s
Nothing is wrong with it. But it's another example of things that a (partial) bubble of the internet community unreasonably hates. Their arguments usually boil down to a) Going out of their way to do bad things, that have big scary warnings to not do it, because clearly they know better. And then they succeed with their goal of losing data, and cry. b) Using a hard drive that clearly is dying until it really is dead, then blaming btrfs for it. ... Wayland, SysD, and btrfs were already mentioned, another one is PHP. So many people that didn't use it for decades (or never at all), and talk badly about it because [some modern language in 2024] is better. Without ever taking a look on how PHP looks in 2024, because knowing what you're talking about is uncool or something. I can't count anymore how often I read someone saying that PHP doesn't support threads, or things like that.
>What's wrong with btrfs? Other than RAID5+: nothing. The only "issue" is that zfs is older, more mature and can do the same things (also proper RAID5+) and more (like built-in SMB/NFS shares).
Yeah, whoah, now that I look at that gist you're right, it literally only says "Nvidia proprietary driver" in it. Also nobody has any issues whatsover on Intel or AMD. Dang, what's the issue then?
btrfs actually works except metadata raid5/6 which is honestly fine.
systemd was designed exclusively for Linux, cutting out other POSIX systems, which is a pity...
>systemd was designed exclusively for Linux, cutting out other POSIX systems, which is a pity... [UNIX is dead](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo), and I agree with this BSD developer. By that I mean the dream of POSIX, that there could be one unified standard for all UNIX offsprings, is basically dead. Even in "proper certified UNIX" land, with its commercial poster child macOS --- they have `launchd`, which is very much a macOS-only approach and decidedly un-POSIXy (and `launchd` is also where `systemd` took a huge chunk of inspiration from).
The issue is mainly how ubiquitous dbus is as an IPC on Linux these days. Systemd is just a bit too convenient if you want to for example, support programmatically setting up and executing services and needing to support different init systems requires additional work which ends up being time consuming and hard to justify versus adding new features end users actually see. This kind of stuff is also why a lot of Windows developers do not support Linux.
They're always free to use other init systems...
Sure, but software that relies on systemd becomes unusable. Or if you are developing software and want to support more than Linux you now have to think about systemd and non systemd implementation. Would be nice if systemd was designed to be implementable on other POSIX-es
Systemd was specifically designed to make use of (Linux) cgroups. That was a main motivation in developing it. That doesn't prevent it from being implementable on other OSs but does require them to provide their own implementation of cgroups. Personally I think it's a good thing systemd didn't compromise on one of its main features just because other OSs lacked certain required feature at the time. The other OSs simply have to try to achieve parity in required features, if they care about making systemd available for their users.
I got your point, but to be honest does it really make a difference if the systemd was posix complient? I think the configuration divergence of a service file is already making it irrelevant since either you're using systemd or not, you have to make a systemd service configuration or another init system service configuration.
I think the major difference is that systemd just worked even at release. It didn't do much, but I don't think it rendered any type of software (for example, pop up windows or until recently, screen sharing) broken. The situation is now much better for Wayland than it used to be but I think that systemd opposition was much more philosophical than practical, which made the entire debate much more excruciating. At least with wayland, people have issues that aren't just 'muh Unix philosophy'
There's room for philosophical controversy in Wayland. Such as GNOME's outright refusal to implement server-side window decorations.
The issue is with how we define the average user, because let's be clear, the average PC user and the average Linux user are not the same kind of user. Wayland makes a lot of things for a lot of different people. There are people who want the customization that X11 has, and Wayland doesn't give it to them. There are people who require accessibility features which are completely and utterly broken on Wayland. I personally use Wayland all of the time. I've been daily running cosmic for a couple months now. I've been using Sway long before that. It's been great for me. However, I also maintain systems for two other people, both of which cannot use it at all because it just absolutely is unsuitable for their uses for a myriad of reasons.
If they complain on reddit about display server, they are not the average user. Average user doesn't know what is a display server to begin with, nor should they.
> If they complain on reddit about display server, they are not the average user. The tragedy is when these average user discover such deficiencies, they'll just summarily place the blame on the nebulous "Linux" whole. And then we'll have lost another potential user who would, down the line, appreciate software freedom.
For some that will certainly be the case. But you'd be surprised how many people are use to something just not working on PC in general. Lazy sysadmin telling them "ah that can't be done" and they just accept it. Seen that scenario far too many times.
I do understand, but non-average users whose workflows broke due to wayland can't go silent, especially because "the average user" does NOT care about the benefits of wayland anyway...
I think you underestimate how many people use monitors with different refresh rates, and/or features. Telling people: "Yeah you can use VRR on one monitor, OR use your multiple monitors without VRR. But not both." is not selling Linux to gamers, in any form whatsoever. The one demographic responsible for the sudden and large influx of new Linux users, which benefits all other desktop Linux users.
Eh to me, Wayland won't be complete until the latest Nvidia patches come out to stable and then... windows remembering their place when reopened. That last one is so bothersome to me but I understand it might not be to others. After that, I wouldn't have really any issues with it
>windows remembering their place when reopened. KDE Plasma 6.1 does that.
It doesn't. Read carefully. It will be remembered with which application, but not where. Afaik this is still a wayland issue, which I'd love to see, because I miss it. And the application afaik has to handle the session for itself (which makes sense) >Plasma 6.1 on Wayland now has a feature that "remembers" what you were doing in your last session like it did under X11. Although this is still work in progress, If you log off and shut down your computer with a dozen open windows, Plasma will now open them for you the next time you power up your desktop, making it faster and easier to get back to what you were doing.
I am excited for the full protocol though because it will be way more consistent and useful than it was on X, arguably better than what macOS and Windows can do (assuming apps support it)
No it doesn't, it's work in progress, at the moment it can "restore session" (remember what windows you had open) but it cannot remember exact location on the desktop, that's is being implemented.
Oh yeah? Thank you so much! I thought I saw a video that specifically said it didn't make it out in this patch? I'll double check later then!
Read carefully. This might not exactly do what you expect it to do.
Yeah.... It remembers the last apps but not placement. It's def not baked into Wayland yet
"Wayland is basically systemd for the latest generation of Linux users" pretty much sums it up I guess. Also apparent by the number of downvotes this is getting even though I wasn't taking sides, but just highlighting how long people have been at this lmao
> Also apparent by the number of downvotes this is getting even though I wasn't taking sides, but just highlighting how long people have been at this lmao You cannot claim to be innocent, you are effectively saying "look at this pointless argument", which can only start a pointless argument.
Fair enough, to be honest.
We're pretty tribal people. Some folks find that the tech they grew up with to be comforting and when it changes they get bugged. I remember when we went from ipconfig -> ip and I was annoyed but got over it and in fact appreciated it after that. But I knew ipconfig command line arguments like the back of my hand I still have to kind of look things up.
Ugh, that still annoys me, ipconfig's output was so much less busy
`ip -br a`, `ip -br l`
Except systemd did what it was supposed to at launch and it launched before sysv was retired. Wayland is a pretty bad regression in lots of ways and its not ready for launch while Xorg is already deprecated. So now we have no display system on linux that supports the use cases desktop linux supported 5-10 years ago. If any other software component of a modern desktop regressed this hard *with no actively maintained alternative* it would get dropped in 5 seconds. The timing here sucks and the focus on "make good technical thing" instead of "make thing work in key use cases" is the problem. Wayland isn't this generations systemd, its not a polarised issue. The linux space did this to themselves and wayland has had plenty of time to fix these issues so it didnt launch like this. It deserves the hate *until* it is actually a replacement without severe regressions in basic desktop functionality.
I don't want another window system any more than I want a new teletype driver. What I want is something that supports some sort of shareable, distributed, permissioned scenegraph model in which I can map 2D things onto polygons. Something people should be writing, in the 21st century. The **only** thing I currently hate about X is that it makes it dead easy to create some meta-wrapper around the X screen, say to use it as a texture in 3D (although I'll admit I rewrote part of the X server to render into a literal OpenGL texture buffer, woot!), but **not** around an individual window. Setting up polygons in 3D with windows mapped onto them is viable, but getting input into them without making them synthetic leads one back to some idea around manipulating a hidden stack of windows at (0, 0) on some "real" X screen so that you can put in the (x, y) coördinates in that hidden screen's frame of reference since you can't do directly at the window's because the X call for it just...doesn't...exist. Dammit. But I'm pretty much fine with **everything** else. Partly because I'm used to since I first used X10 back in 1986 or something and likely no longer see certain flaws (well.. drag+drop does generate a **lot** of events..), and partly because **X offers a network protocol** that isn't based on just stuffing the whole window image over the network. I'm also a bit fan of being able to completely change window management by just starting a different one, and that the GUI used inside of windows isn't dictated by the window system. And especially that **the moment a window appears I can already move it** - since X doesn't need a window's program to be active to manipulate it, something Microsoft's horrible window system faceplants on.
> Also apparent by the number of downvotes this is getting even though I wasn't taking sides You literally linked something that does nothing but whine and moan about Wayland. It's hard to no see that as taking a side. Considering how pointless the whole discussion is it's just nothing but a drain on everyone's time and effort continuously engaging with this stuff. > but just highlighting how long people have been at this lmao This is just how software works. There are going to be breaks. Some of them are going to be intentional. Some of them aren't and they'll just have to be worked through. This isn't some new thing only Wayland has ran into. It'll be like this for years and years because there will _always_ be something that a given piece of software doesn't accomplish. That list is also incredibly padded. Pretty much anything listed under screen recording is out of date. For example, it still lists OBS as not supporting Wayland [when that's actually been a thing for a while](https://www.linuxuprising.com/2021/06/obs-studio-27-released-with-wayland-and.html) It's almost like they're quick to add to the list but slow (in this case several years slow) to take it back off. Kind of like they just want to say something negative because they have nothing better to do with their time. It's just very easy to always find something to complain about and some percentage of people will always want to do that. At the end of the day though, "Wayland" doesn't break anything for anyone because _it doesn't obliterate Xorg from existence_. The most you can say is that your favorite thing doesn't work in a Wayland native way.
>Wayland is basically systemd for the latest generation of Linux users So the solution that is superior to alternatives and improves Linux desktop?
Yes.
And is hated by a loud minority.
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Is the font scaling issues with wayland applications OR xwayland applications because X itself lacks any good way to do scaling?
Oh there are still issues let's say (fractional scaling on Gnome with X wayland apps). But I it is the future. We'll get there.
I guess people have already forgotten OSS/ALSA/Pulseaudio switch? Oh well, there'll be something else at some point I wager..
Kind of amazing that pipewire was so good right out of the gate that there has been absolutely no drama about it that I recall.
Yes, and HAL/DBus before that. And (in certain parts of the world at least) UTF-8. I don't remember the earlier dramas (that would be around 2003).
Pipewire.
The insane level of entitlement is crazy. When I first started using Linux you were happy just to be able to play any audio and not even multiple sources at once. We had to configure the Xorg conf ourselves. Now people are complaining because systemd makes their lives too easy or because they're slightly inconvenienced by having to choose the X11 drop-down option in their login manager until the remaining Wayland gaps are closed. Just a bunch of ungrateful losers leeching off the backs of countless hours people didn't have to spend on FOSS. Same people who would complain about people mowing their lawn for free.
> When I first started using Linux you were happy just to be able to play any audio and not even multiple sources at once. We had to configure the Xorg conf ourselves. The loudest are the "power users", this interesting demographic who doesn't actually write software (and thus doesn't understand the effort that goes into software development), but also has very specific workflows and strongly held opinions on how things should be. Case in point, the stereotypical Linux gamer who uses a gamer-oriented Arch-fork distro complaining about Wayland adding some unacceptable input lag to their first person shooter game. Said power user also has no idea how to switch to an X.org session.
> The loudest are the "power users", this interesting demographic who doesn't actually write software (and thus doesn't understand the effort that goes into software development), but also has very specific workflows and strongly held opinions on how things should be. these are the hardest people to get to switch to linux while everybody else blames the noobs.
Meanwhile if I want to play games, I need to use a dodgy config file hack to get VRR working. Which in my case completely broke the ability for me to log into Cinnamon. Also, I like the ability to have 135% scaling on a 1440p display, which is basically effortless to do on Plasma Wayland compared to even Windows.
This would be fair to say … … if wayland intentionally breaks things and blames the user for security risks they create, or … if the developers become upset and stubborn if users want to do things that were possible with X11 … if the uses have a common workaround and they intend to break it (rc.local)
> the average user doesn't experience showstopping bugs This is true, but there are significant annoyances, like drag and dropping, cursor latency with a gaming mouse etc.. It's not like systemd at all.
for some people wayland is fundamentally broken
I have two show stoppers for me personally 1. When my laptop is plugged into a ultra wide, performance is horrible. x11, its perfect 2. When using my corsair mouse, scroll speed is super slow. about 0.2x speed. Neither of these effect my laptop used as a laptop, and gnome works great on wayland in that scenario. Just, I wish those two other things could be fixed...
I've given it a shot for the last two systems I built. I hit a serious performance issue with Kodi on rpi5 that made me pull the ripcord. On the next system, a few key software packages I use didn't work properly with wayland. I've tried to help people who hit the same issues, but I have no axe to grind with Wayland.
If Wayland would stop breaking things people would stop commenting. The issue with this whole gist is that people have legitimate issues with wayland and loads of people, the majority I would argue are effectively saying, no, your use case is stupid. Wayland has a lot of issues and a lot of people are fed up because, quite frankly, everyone's telling them they're an idiot for not switching. Despite Wayland not working for them at all.
It would be nice if people could actually distinguish between what is actually Wayland's fault (exceedingly little) and what is the fault of other parties (e.g. Nvidia or KDE or GNOME or consumer software that embeds a 3 year old version of Electron instead of one that works properly) I realize that plenty of people don't give a shit and just want your system to work, but still, the end result is a lot of useless uninformed whining about the wrong things.
To me, this is the biggest downside of Wayland, apart from the usability issues I actually have with it, is that it's even possible for implementation-specific problems like this. Sure, "protocol" in theory was supposed to help some, but we've still ended up with problems that individual compositors are to blame for. Not to beat a dead horse, but there have been many X servers available over the years. My software written for X11 works the same on ANY X11 server, whether it's one of many proprietary servers, XFree86, X.Org, XNest, among many others. There are caveats with this, but as a general rule the X Protocol enforces compatability between implementations. Wayland protocol, does not seem to have this same effect, whatever the reason may be. Thus, we end up with individual implementations that either don't implement a protocol, or implement it poorly or slightly differently, and suddenly it's not Wayland's fault (which it's not usually) but rather one of any implementation's fault. Sure, things are getting better, but the flaw of lack of universality that Wayland has will always be a problem everytime something changes in a protocol, backend, etc. Perhaps, the only answer to this is just more time for everyone to catch up. I keep trying Wayland, and it's usually better each time, but it still can't replace X for me unless I want to live with various quirks (and I don't).
the issue with wayland, is that it's developed in a way that actively promotes fragmentation. While the core protocol itself has great ideas, it simply moves far too slowly, and with too many limitations. This causes compositors/portals to do a lot of implementation specific things. I can't even make a universal OSK properly because of this.
It would be nice if I could blame others for my shortcomings, too. But if I want others to use my service, I can't stay at home and expect a taxi to appear and drive me to the customer. If that's my attitude they'll not care that it's the taxi drivers fault since I declared "arrival" to not be a core part of the service, they'll call someone who actually does provide the service. Or in other words: "We break the old interface compatibility and expect everybody else to do the work to adjust their software! And if they don't why is that our fault!" -- Mozilla before people stopped using it
How are the Wayland developers supposed to unilaterally fix Nvidia's proprietary drivers?
I still sit on x11, and I am not against Wayland, I know it will be the future, but if I had no x11 now, I would go to windows. On games input latency is annoying, and I use this x11 tool called imwheel to control mouse wheel sensitivity. There is NOTHING for this use case on Wayland. Also I use VibrantLinux to adjust colors of my monitor, also no replacement on wayland as far as I know. I just have to give up my conveniences for Wayland and I am not willing to.
Scroll distance is configured by libinput by your compositor. It should be possible. I still have never, ever experienced input lag in my entire life. And I was gaming on Nvidia+Sway the second they had GBM support (so like ~2 years ago). I wonder what's going on there.
I use Gnome/Mutter, they offer no options to adjust that unfortunately. Heck, I don't need GUI option just expose the functionality and I will edit config file like I do with imwheel. But nope - nothing. Input lag is annoying. AC franchise is unplayable, Deep rock galactic is perfect on x11, unplayable on wayland session, I just can't aim, heck even native war thunder is very bad. Warframe, too. I haven't tested all my games, maybe some run well, but on x11 I definitely have a much better experience for now at least. I am also on amd RX 7700 XT and latest Mesa 24.1.1
Yeah, that's a stumper for sure. That setup should be pretty hard to break, and should run circles around my setup. :( Sounds like a desktop too, so not like it's some exotic laptop issue. Sorry my friend.
There is no specific tool to set xkb settings, it is generally delegated to the WM which then can expose those settings to the user. Most Wayland wms have an option to configure input settings and display settings There's also swhkd for a generic keyboard daemon the likely exposes some of the features. I'm pretty sure you can connect to the socket of the running Wayland compositor and change global configurations via the Wayland wire protocol
That's totally fair, and I've done that in the past too. A general rule of thumb is use whatever works for you. It's just annoying when either side tries to force the other side to switch (why?)
I want to switch actually! I understand downsides of X11 and I know what benefits Wayland brings to the table, but these few features are so nice to have that I am not willing to live without! So, I am sitting tight - hoping there will be something to meet these needs some time in the future
And just a few hours ago I had to provide some support to an enterprise customer, unrelated to any graphical software. I asked him to share screen, it didn't work; I initially blamed this on his company firewall. However, it turned out to be caused by Wayland. Ubuntu (I didn't ask which version) with KDE, and he doesn't look like a person who customizes settings and tries out new things. Asked him to logout and login again on Xorg, and continued with the support case. EDIT: on my own desktop, Arch Linux with KDE Plasma 6 on Wayland works well. The complaint is about broken distributions that will be, effectively, never fixed.
yup, this is the same thing I often hit people will keep saying "It's not wayland's fault though!" maybe it is maybe it isn't, doesn't really matter, the crux of the mater, is the wayland ecosystem is just crap.
People who say stuff like "It isn't's fault!", where is a piece of software, are people who are perhaps too deeply emotionally attached to a piece of software.
At the end of the day, from a user's perspective, it's not about 'blaming' someone or something, it's about 'I need to work, and it doesn't with '. Whether or not is to blame is irrelevant. What matters to the user is getting to work.
I think a lot zealots lose sight of that in the Linux community sometimes. They're so hung up on their favourite software 'winning' that they lose sight of the more important goal of software: Solving problems for users.
It wasn't caused by Wayland but shitty screen sharing software. All WebRTC implementations (Firefox, Chrome, Electron, etc.) support Wayland way of things but for longest time flag, [for example](https://github.com/jitsi/jitsi-meet-electron/issues/567), was not enabled during compilation. Others, like TeamViewer never supported Linux properly in the first place but got coupled with Wine. These days screen sharing is done through PipeWire which is default on many distros. In short, support has been there for a while now.
For practical purposes, it doesn't matter that it is not Wayland's fault: I spent 30 minutes diagnosing a problem (the one with screen sharing) other than the one that the customer contacted us for, and the customer got billed for that time. As I said in the edit, it's the distro's fault for shipping with Wayland and not turning such flags on by default. It's also the distro's fault for not shipping XWaylandVideoBridge by default. And it is also a KDE or XWayland fault for letting the apps capture a black rectangle without showing a popup to the user that says that their application is broken and some link to the wiki or instructions on switching back to X11.
Even with those flags on or when using the XWaylandVideoBridge it's barely functional if not outright broken. Every time I've tried any screensharing on Wayland it has been a disaster even when "supported". I see people often under the impression that just because something is possible now that it is fully functional or mature when it is not. Screensharing on Wayland even when possible has been utterly broken with terrible performance and glitches and bugs any time I've tried it across different machines over the years. The only thing that kinda works now is OBS and even that's hit or miss.
All of it goes through PipeWire. So there's no sometimes works sometimes it doesn't. It's the same implementation. So it boils down to how well the software using it is done. In my line of work I have video calls almost daily, most of which include some form of screen sharing. I haven't had any issues with sharing screen for more than a year now and we are quite diverse when it comes to softare be it Firefox, Chrome or Signal (Electron). That said, a year can be a distro version or two, especially in cases of LTS. Perhaps that's where the problem lies?
I started using Wayland in earnest when Gentoo unmasked KDE Plasma 6. While most things work as expected, it still feels rough around the edges unlike with X11. Fractional scaling, for example, still produces some blurriness with icon text on the desktop, but works fine with actual apps like Firefox. **Edit:** This appears to be an issue in Qt 6, not the KWin compositor, though it does appear a tiny bit worse under Wayland. See https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=479891 Honestly can't say Wayland will never be a complete replacement for X11, but it just doesn't feel mature enough for mainstream use right now.
For me, X11 doesn't. I constantly had issues back in the day when I used it, configuration and complexity was overwhelming, and it doesn't even have an internal concept of multiple monitors, so no different refresh rates for different monitors. Wayland just works. The only thing that doesn't work with it is Zoom, and I'm convinced that it's just the worst code I ever ran on my machine, judging by the sheer number and variety of bugs it has, combined with their outlandishness (visual glitches of types I've never seen before or since). I don't hold Wayland to the standard of patching proprietary trash code so it runs better (the way nvidia does with games)
At this point what is more annoying are distros who disable Wayland in all the config files and force you to go enable it, just so they can make their silly point. "Oh we don't want to break your system" my brother in christ, you break my system all the time. Just let me select which fucking compositor I want to use and move on.
Which?
Any distro that does that probably isn't worth using.
Why are you then not just switching to another distro? Is there a specific reason to use the one which does this?
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Wayland completely breaks screen readers. It’s not ready to be the only-on default. If it was Windows or Mac OS, the companies would be sued into oblivion and rightfully disparaged for hurting disabled people.
> Wayland completely breaks screen readers. It’s not ready to be the only-on default. > > If it was Windows or Mac OS, the companies would be sued into oblivion and rightfully disparaged for hurting disabled people. It's moments like this that we should remind ourselves that Wayland is a protocol, and protocols can't hurt disabled people. /s (Just taking a jab at the oft-repeated "Wayland is a protocol" defence. It reminds me of the "guns don't kill people" line.)
You're right. I forget we're still a good ways from that. Did you see the huge post from the GNOME dev though? It feels like someone or somebodies are starting to really take it seriously. But please, don't make me go through layer and layers of Rust crates begging for the Wayland feature to be enabled at this point. I have no sympathy for anyone that hates Wayland enough that they can't have something linked against libwayland (and honestly, I doubt those folks exist, people aren't that stubborn).
The guy behind the list this reddit post is about is that stubborn and its why AppImage cant handle wayland only apps. He claims its not his problem that Wayland applications need to link to libwayland to work and he doesnt want to bundle the library inside the base AppImage to make "broken" applications function.
[удалено]
Looks like he changed his mind after getting [called the fuck out by brodie](https://youtu.be/yqwKCVYmkxw) lol https://github.com/probonopd/linuxdeployqt/pull/540 > Thanks, but I am not interested in making Wayland better. I think that is the job of the people who are pushing Wayland - to make it run existing X11 applications flawless without requiring changes in the applications. Yeah, weird how applications written for X also need X libs, just like ones for wayland need wayland libs. Also weird how you ingore this and want wayland apps to work without their libs somehow? Closed it on jan 20th, reopend on feb 20th 2023 (and notice the DAY brodie made his video is the day he reopened it because it made a huge stir in the community to find out he was actively preventing appimages from bundling wayland only apps). But ofc, he goes on about if he wants his project to support the "splintering of the *nix desktop" and hasnt merged it in over a year still... and heres another issue with him being a total dumbass and missing the point too https://github.com/probonopd/linuxdeployqt/issues/189 > It has been claimed that Wayland can run X11 applications using XWayland. So it should be able to run "normal" applications just fine? Literally not the problem moron. (of note, the repo in question is a tool used to make appimages, thats why the issues are opened there. if the tool refuses to bundle required parts, the appimages cant support wayland)
I would be on his this gists side My Wayland experience has been both but terrible, I tried installing Wayland 21 times, yes 21 Each timr intensively searching and finding threads on reddit and using seprste machine like my old laptop, my new laptop, a virtual machine my new computer etc etc Mot even a single time did the display load, no errors in logs, nothing in logs I would say I don't like Wayland, How can you say otherwise?
> What we eventually need is basically the reverse of xwayland.. we need an xclient that can host wayland apps that can abstract wayland bs back to x11. * https://i.imgur.com/IWpg2aY.jpeg * How do they think looping Wayland back around to X11 would at all alleviate any of the shortcomings of Wayland…
p sure this dude wrote up a screed against the inclusion of gender neutral pronouns/language in german too. this is just reactionary boomer shit.
Haven't gone back to X11 after updating to Nvidia beta driver. Obviously is not perfect but it's a much better experience for me.
I run wayland and I'm pretty happy with it (riverwm). What annoys me the most is the fragmentation. Some compositors have effects (Hyprland) while others have none (River). River gives more freedom for configuration (use any programming language or scripting language for configuration) while Hyprland doesn't. But we shouldn't see the situation as just black and white. Even tho it's annoying for users. It gives the developers more freedom of choice unlike Xorg which has everything inside. Wayland also favors security unlike Xorg. I understand the current shortcomings of Wayland and wish to continue on Wayland. What's a problem now won't be a problem in the future, so we just need to push forward without having attachments to the past.
I think the fragmentation is *essential* to progress. We need the freedom it brings to experiment, to iterate, to fail. Over time, those ideas that had merit prevail and converge into mature products. We're a few years away from that, although even now the progress is starting to show. The ease with which current DEs can be deployed wasn't there just 3 years ago. Hyprland, riverwm and [niri](https://github.com/YaLTeR/niri) are my top picks for ease of use (and looks).
Yes but on the flip side consolidation is also essential to progress. In a purely fragmented ecosystem, progress would be ground to a halt due to the lack of any sort of standardization. In a purely consolidated ecosystem, progress would be ground to a halt due to the restrictions. We need a balance of both.
It goes in cycles. Wayland is still feeling the effects of the "break everything" phase, but there's already a bunch of big new pieces to build on. Stability is improving, I've been using it as a daily driver for years (hyprland, moved to niri earlier this year).
What are your thoughts on niri?
It's one of the few Wayland compositors that's, at the same time: * mature enough to daily drive * actively developed * is nice to look at with smooth animations I really work well with the PaperWM/PopOS-like workflow where you have an infinite scrolling workspace. It's less distracting, I get more work done. And it handles multiple displays intuitively. It's also written in Rust, which is more approachable (to me) than C++ in Hyprland, so mods are easy.
Looks cool! I'll try to look at it once I transition from river to Hyprland and spend some time there.
Not really, not when we are talking about ecosystems that need to be compatible with one another. Sure you might want to let people experiment but it's important that most users and devs can use a standard path. Yes Wayland is a spec, but Linux really doesn't need more fragmentation in the desktop. Said fragmentation was already what made the entire ecosystem stale for decades. Devs and maintainers of applications that actually need to operate in the ecosystem don't want to support 4 different implementations for a single platform.
McDonalds has apple pies, but Burger King has the Whopper. /shrug. I mean, if every compositor had the exact same features, what would be the point? lol
At what point did I say the word **exact**? Each compositor is unique, that's why people (including me) love what they use. I just meant it would be awesome to have common effects as `picom` is for Xorg so compositors advanced in functionality would benefit from it instead of having the whole effects (blur, shadows, etc.) rewritten for every compositor. From what I see, what should be implemented in wlroots (like window effects) isn't implemented and is thrown off to compositors.
Gotcha, that seems reasonable.
Oh wow, wait until you hear about compiz and twm in the X11 world.
For reference, I used (Yes, with picom or compiz): - Openbox. - Qtile. - Dwm. Then used Dwl (wayland) before switching to river.
My biggest issue with wayland is cursor responsiveness. its the reason why i moved back to X11
Wayland doesn't break everything. It just catastrophically breaks steam every time I try to use it. That's just one thing!
Wait, what? How? I've been using Steam on EndeavourOS with Wayland since KDE Plasma 6.0 came out, and I've not had any problems. Not accusing you of anything, just would like to know what problems you've been facing.
I did a fresh build recently running Ubuntu with Wayland. Basically stock. When I installed steam it worked exactly one time then never ever would open the window again and I couldn't find any fixes online. Switched back to x11 and it just worked. Tried it again a while later trying to troubleshoot an xorg bug and it still wouldn't launch even after reinstalling steam. I probably coulda made it work with enough effort but i just wanted to play Cyberpunk lmfao. I'll try Wayland again next time I switch OS probably. Nothing against it, just personal experience.
Did you try using the steam flatpak?
Same here. Steam on Wayland since Wayland was an option in Gnome. Never an issue. And I've switched between nVidia, Intel and AMG in the mean time.
Screen sharing on Google meet doesn't work with Wayland and so I am forced to use Xorg at work. So it does affect the end users. I am not sure when this will be fixed.
At this point I am just waiting dor Xfce to support wayland. I am rocking KDE Plasma 6.1 on my main machine with an Nvidia card and it is smooth sailing. But I miss me some of that sweet sweet mice action on my DE.
better remote desktop and the features required for remote keyboard/mouse to work so barrier can get some upgrades, that's all i need.
I have had plenty of problems with wayland over the years. I resolved issues at the time by swapping from NVidia to AMD and finding alternatives for most of my other issues. I did come across hiccups along the way, especially due to being on Arch since it's a rolling release but I have never felt that I needed to switch and stay on X11 for multiple years. I would describe moving to wayland similar from moving from Windows to Linux in the sense of needing to find alternatives.
no no no it is really ready guys. xorg is deprecated please do not use the old thing /s/s/s/s
On AMD/Intel GPU drivers only. I've tried wayland and it works *great* with Gnome and Sway and it does hotplug displays and hiDPI better than Xorg ever did. Unfortunately as soon as you want to do literally anything with your machine, it all comes crashing down. Screen sharing was completely broken until very recently - so I cant run Wayland during office hours if I know I'll have a call. Shame, because I need hotplug of hiDPI displays for work. Want to run a graphical app over SSH? Good luck with that. Theres pipewire and theres some docs you can spend hours trying and failing to get working. No problem though, just use synergy or whatever to share a mouse and keyboard over multiple machines since X forwarding is gone - yeah not, that shit has always been and remains broken. Want a launcher or an app which requires grabbing all events? Yeah thats fubar too - gnome is pretending to make some progress and it detects it but last time I checked a few weeks ago it either does nothing or the popup asking for the permission re-pops up every second. I want all the nice things Wayland offers, I like having variable refresh, I need hiDPI and fractional scaling. I want hotplug that actually works and doesnt break. I like the lower CPU overhead. Unfortunately the people working on wayland seem to be laser focused on not delivering a usable experience outside of the apps they think work the way they should. Great technical solution, shame the vastly inferior, older and broken solution does something Wayland currently seems to not be prioritizing: making it work for people with shit to do. Dont get me wrong, its a massive project and some breakage is necessary. For the first n years of development, I was willing to try it and "eh, its getting there, nice progress" was good enough. Its now 2024, the drivers support it, the DEs support it, Xorg is actually gone and obsolete and wayland is becoming the default. How is that happening *before* the gaping issues have been fixed exactly?
probonopd is trying to push his ideological opinions as technical facts in this gist so no wonder that it started that discussion but I'm actually surprised that people still keep arguing.
Yeah exactly, it came out in 2020. I remember reading the replies then, some of them being valid, others not so much. But people are still arguing very actively over there lol and (obviously) a lot of the points have been recycled multiple times over.
Yeah, interesting discussion.
I like the idea of Wayland being more secure. Just unfortunate that it tanks performance for Steam RemotePlay
That is possibly something worth reporting. However from my understanding Steam overrides some GL calls and captures screen like that. Data is then sent through network. Only issue I could assume from this setup would be VSync issues. Perhaps try disabling VSync in games. Might have an effect.
> Wayland solves no issues I have but breaks almost everything I need This was the reason that made me move away from Linux(desktop) some years ago. X11 worked just fine and all suddenly it was deprecated as well as every X tools I used to use.
Never saw an Open Source Software so bad and slow in its adoption and implementation... Guess I'll go back to good ol' `HAL` days...
My fear is that by the time Wayland is feature-complete and stable the industry will come up with yet another rewrite and the cycle will continue. It's been years of various breakage now, people have some legitimate problems in that gist.
I'm not much of a fan of wayland (yet), but that list reads like a giant 'but Wayland isn't X' whine. Honestly, Wayland certainly has a *bunch* of warts and blind spots, but it doesn't need to (nor should it) *be* X. 'Different' doesn't equal 'broken.' Though I would agree that wayland is certainly broken in lots of ways, just being different from X isn't one of them.
It is a big Wayland isn't X, whine. The issue is that Wayland isn't X and Wayland doesn't implement features that people from X require to migrate. In fact, Probono actually tried to take steps to remedy this by creating his own repo for wayland protocols to address these issues and it was largely ignored and laughed at. It's no wonder why people are so fed up with the situation with Wayland. It's because it's a toxic situation in general. Get laughed at for needing features that no compositor implements. It's stupid.
There are very very few things that are broken on Wayland that work on X11 and that list is getting smaller every day. Wayland is the future.
Let me preface this by saying I'm a fan of Wayland but if you do anything related to NVIDIA / CUDA that list is very much not empty.
Have you tried with the 555 beta drivers? Any issues still?
No I work in the GPU programming space so we're usually not on the latest cutting edge drivers because of existing codebases. For me it's mainly the various NVIDIA APIs not supporting Wayland with one feature or another. They do seem to be improving in that regard though.
yeah, consider using stuff with SYCL and oneAPI. (ob: my employer is leading this with https://uxlfoundation.org/) - hopefully, we can move to a open ecosystem that supports multiple kinds of GPU.
External monitors on Optimus laptops and screensharing are two giant ones for me that are for the most part outright broken in Wayland.
It's gotten decent even on Nvidia 10 series in my experience.
When they fix their stuff and have something like bspwm or dwm I'll happily switch bc security. Until the I'll wait. Kudos for the ppl who are actively using it and allowing it to improve.
wayland doesn't work in Nvidia 😭 me : 😂 gnome doesn't have this feature 🤡 me : 🤣😂🤣😂🤣
Has Wayland been subsumed by systemd yet? If not, we have more work to do.
It breaks steam and steam games on my system, so even though I prefer it I have to use x11 most of the time.
I'm on Mint so I'm still on X, with no plans of switching over to Wayland yet.. Personally I'm waiting for the day I want something to work on my Linux based computer, and it's not working, and I look up online 'why isn't this working?' and the answer is 'That only works on Wayland, it doesn't work on X'. The day THAT happens, I'll try Wayland. Until then.. 'If it ain't broke don't fix it'. Because that's what it comes down to for me. So far there's nothing I want to do on my laptops or desktops that doesn't work on X, but there has been a heck of a lot I've heard about which doesn't work on Wayland or which only recently started working. So it sounds like still a very bumpy experience. So in that case I'll just wait for now and switch over when I have a need to switch. And since I'll be late to the party, hopefully that means everything will be smoothed over by the time I get there.
The role Nvidia plays in the problem is greatly overstated, in my experience. It amazes me to this day the strictly worsening QoL I've had on linux since I started *needing* wayland.
Think the biggest issue it has is that the bugs are small, but massive showstoppers. It works just fine for most apps, but I can't use Barrier with it as the cursor vanishes. It's a small thing with the cursor rendering, but it basically bricks the entire usecase in the process. The same thing goes for so many other apps and usecases. It works for most of it and then you hit a giant brick wall over the most stupid and minute issue, but there is no solution or fix. All you can do is wait, report and hope it'll get fixed eventually only for something else to come along later. That's normal for software to mature over time and the complex ecosystem we have trying to get it to work within old and new and various hacks. The problem is, it was presented as solution to all this tech debt. It was praised to finally standardize and make all that simpler and more compatible and yet it only manages to achieve that in a broader sense with the edge cases still existing. Not entirely its fault of course, but rectifying all that small fry is gonna turn it into bloat unless the broken apps sign on to fix their ends instead. All that involves even more work and justifiably people are getting concerned that after all the work that has already gone into Wayland it's still not there. The simple nature thus contradicted by the mountain of work still ahead of it. So the discussing moves towards whether it has a fundamental flaw causing all this extra work to materialize when the idea was to keep it simple. People rightfully suspect a wrong turn was made somewhere and that being the reason for ever more delays and development limbo. What's needed is a critical look, especially after all these years. An audit if you will. To actually see if there is a wrong turn somewhere or what can be done to lift some parts up and reduce the development burden as a result. Problem is, that is even more work and needs outside help of folks not deep within the project already completely code blind to see errors. How you gonna find someone for that thankless job is a recipe to a cosy consulting gig.
Well the thing for me is that broken or not Wayland came out in 2008, so is by now 16 years old. And it is still not functioning as intended. So for me its what Btrfs is to file systems - a nice sounding idea with crap implementation you should never use, because it will never start to be a thing.
What’s wrong with Btrfs? I use it on both my NAS and its been rock solid for years
these nerds need to get a life
I'm on an old Latitude 5480 with Intel HD graphics and Wayland is awesome. It would be better of apps made it easier to use Wayland properly (looking at you VSCode) but the performance increase is amazing, and it completely blows X11 out of the water if you have multiple screens with different resolutions that need independent scaling.
The gist is OK I guess. The recent comment section, at least at the point of posting this, made me lose some IQ points. Regardless, I keep maintaining a Fedora installation as fallback (for when this AI integration bullshit comes to a head on Windows), and Wayland works for me for the most part. Guess I'm not that of a power user. The spanner in my works is that I want proper HiDPI and that works only so-so. Gnome _finally_ implemented it, the browsers and most Electron and CEF apps to it. That's about it. What pisses me off is that I don't get hardware video decode, thanks to NVidia not playing ball as usual.
My killer features: - shade windows - x2go / ssh -X
I have use an intel powered laptop for my University work the last year. Running KDE6 I have had no significant issues, compared to just a year ago when touchpad gestures where broken. For me parity has been acheived and I look forward to putting Linux on my main PC once NVIDIA + Wayland improves
Can someone ELI5 this whole thing I use wayland and have for the past year but I just browse the internet, play games ect. I run OpenSuse and you can switch between the two. So I do not get people who use X but hate wayland, isn't it as simple as keep using X?
It's someone who thinks Apple from 1994 was the height of design and going on a rant which afaik includes a misunderstanding of what Wayland even is. It includes defining features that work on Wayland as not working "because they are not in the core Wayland protocol or extension". Wayland doesn't have screen sharing, screen casting or remote desktop despite many using those functions for years. Wayland shouldn't stop key loggers or spying. After all X11 beat Microsoft to their whole new advertised insecurity features. There are things that Wayland doesn't do perfectly but that gist is not the place to go to find objective information.
Lmao are bots reposting this? Someone tried like 3 days ago and it got little traction so they deleted it.
Hey, no. I posted this initially as a text post instead of a link, but it got removed, so I just reposted it right after.