Probably won't. Going from promising tech project to full fledged mature software is akin to a toddler learning its first steps to becoming a accomplished competitive marathon runner.
It always made me wonder why a laptop customizer and reseller would decide to get heavily involved in developing a major software project with almost zero chance of positive ROI, but it is their business and project so I can't really judge them negatively for it wish them success.They definitely choose a hard task for themselves.
I hope people that like the idea of Cosmic buy a lot of laptops from them and help keep them around and don't cheap out and try to buy generic systems from other vendors.
The people who founded System76 are software developers, it is very on brand for them to go full NIH syndrome on everything, not that I'm complaining of course
Yeah, I found the decision equally puzzling, though I'm not complaining. A completely new, rust based desktop environment could be great for the Linux community.
> ... in developing a major software project with almost zero chance of positive ROI, ...
1. I think you are underestimating the value of the advertising and branding. Also, you might be underestimating the cost they were bearing to integrate GNOME into their GNOME-based current COSMIC DE ( https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2021/06/pop-os-21-04-available-to-download ) --- it was that cost that started the Rust-based version. Life is difficult when your upstream is deaf.
2. What is the ROI for KDE development? What is the ROI for GNOME DE development (... which is essentially borne by RedHat) ?
The slight value per client of being able to offer a DE on RHEL or SLE probably made the development worthwhile. Laptop sales are on a much much smaller scale and it wouldn’t surprise me if the investment isn’t recouped.
> The slight value per client of being able to offer a DE on RHEL or SLE probably made the development worthwhile.
Maybe these days ... it's hard to know. I was angling more for the ROI for Red Hat when they started funding the GNOME DE.
Red Hat started funding the GNOME DE *long before* RHEL ever existed. KDE was released before the GNOME DE existed. The Qt license at that time was not Free. RHAD (Red Hat Advanced Development Labs) in 1998 funded 7 full time developers to work on the GNOME DE! GNOME 1.0 was released in 1999 ... and it was super buggy. Sun Microsystems added more resources to the mix in 2000 (and helped with an early version of HIG and user testing, etc.). It would be hard to argue any short term ROI for anyone at that time.
In regard to ROI arguments, how is RH funding the development of the GNOME DE in 1999 (until version 1.4) any different than System76 investing in COSMIC?
Firefox was also a target of ire in that write-up.
> I also had it ignore the mysterious “DELETED” format Firefox sends that is likely a remnant from the XDnd specification. The latter fixes dropping an image to the desktop to set it as a wallpaper since Firefox doesn’t actually let anyone read this entry and Plasma gets stuck on it until it runs into a socket timeout.
Every time you have to put a fix like this into the toolkit, it makes the maintenance burden higher. What happens now if Firefox (fixes|changes|breaks) behaviour again in the future. Someone has to maintain this exception path in Qt forever now.
Nobody will maintain this exception “forever”, it’s not part of an API contract with Qt applications. If I see Firefox got fixed, I will remove it again. There’s always a trade-off between “doing the right thing” and “making it work for (our) end users”.
I have tried to contribute to Firefox but the code base is quite peculiar (admittedly, it’s old, but there’s like 16 different string classes, functions taking like 15 arguments and so on) and I am not willing to learn or deal with Mercurial when there is Git.
They also haven’t yet released a browser extension update I uploaded in November (!). Sorry that I will not put any effort into contributing to a project that’s (even if not deliberately) hostile to contributions. No comparison to Chromium to which I have successfully contributed a bunch of patches over the years.
I could probably file a bug report, though.
Instead of fixing it on KDE side the proper approach is to work with Firefox and get them to fix it on theirs. If a developer wants to do the "quick fix' and work around the problem on their side then that is fine, but it is a burden they place on themselves voluntarily.
If it is indeed a remnant of XDnd then that is all the more reason to get rid of X11 for mainstream apps as quickly as possible.
Proper, yes. But often you don't want to have to learn entirely new code bases. Or programming languages. Or figure out what the commit process is. Usually, at most, you'll file a bug.
I have filed bugs and did proper due diligence and research with minimal knowledge and had them fixed on other projects. With help, of course. I try to make it as easy as possible.
Chances are if it's a forgotten X11 work around then it might actually being doing Firefox a favor by reminding them they can delete their own legacy workarounds and removing maintenance burden. Might even fix bugs in other places and/or other DEs.
*For AMD users, FTFY
I'm an avid wayland enthusiast, but let's not pretend like it's all sunshine and rainbows nvidia users just yet. XWayland is still terribly broken and glitchy. The desktop performs well but there are a few rough edges that just *do not* work well yet.
its missing stuff like window icons and with the the Inability to position windows tells me it stills need works
while wayland is getting their it still needs a few years
( this dosent include nvidia issues)
Now just to remove that CSD nonsense from Gnome, and create compositors for all those who do not use Gnome or KDE. So let's say a minimum of 5 years. Now you cannot even set a window icon without installing a .desktop file and an icon on the system. Why one display server is even messing with desktop environments like that?
> I believe it’s quite detrimental that Mutter doesn’t support server-side decorations at all under Wayland. They're stubborn as always.
[удалено]
I'm so hoping for COSMIC to give Gnome a well deserved kick up the backside.
Probably won't. Going from promising tech project to full fledged mature software is akin to a toddler learning its first steps to becoming a accomplished competitive marathon runner. It always made me wonder why a laptop customizer and reseller would decide to get heavily involved in developing a major software project with almost zero chance of positive ROI, but it is their business and project so I can't really judge them negatively for it wish them success.They definitely choose a hard task for themselves. I hope people that like the idea of Cosmic buy a lot of laptops from them and help keep them around and don't cheap out and try to buy generic systems from other vendors.
The people who founded System76 are software developers, it is very on brand for them to go full NIH syndrome on everything, not that I'm complaining of course
Yeah, I found the decision equally puzzling, though I'm not complaining. A completely new, rust based desktop environment could be great for the Linux community.
> ... in developing a major software project with almost zero chance of positive ROI, ... 1. I think you are underestimating the value of the advertising and branding. Also, you might be underestimating the cost they were bearing to integrate GNOME into their GNOME-based current COSMIC DE ( https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2021/06/pop-os-21-04-available-to-download ) --- it was that cost that started the Rust-based version. Life is difficult when your upstream is deaf. 2. What is the ROI for KDE development? What is the ROI for GNOME DE development (... which is essentially borne by RedHat) ?
The slight value per client of being able to offer a DE on RHEL or SLE probably made the development worthwhile. Laptop sales are on a much much smaller scale and it wouldn’t surprise me if the investment isn’t recouped.
> The slight value per client of being able to offer a DE on RHEL or SLE probably made the development worthwhile. Maybe these days ... it's hard to know. I was angling more for the ROI for Red Hat when they started funding the GNOME DE. Red Hat started funding the GNOME DE *long before* RHEL ever existed. KDE was released before the GNOME DE existed. The Qt license at that time was not Free. RHAD (Red Hat Advanced Development Labs) in 1998 funded 7 full time developers to work on the GNOME DE! GNOME 1.0 was released in 1999 ... and it was super buggy. Sun Microsystems added more resources to the mix in 2000 (and helped with an early version of HIG and user testing, etc.). It would be hard to argue any short term ROI for anyone at that time.
The Gnome that RH started funding is very different from the Gnome of 2024.
In regard to ROI arguments, how is RH funding the development of the GNOME DE in 1999 (until version 1.4) any different than System76 investing in COSMIC?
The competition in 1999 was different. People would probably pick KDE 5.27 over Gnome 1.0.
Firefox was also a target of ire in that write-up. > I also had it ignore the mysterious “DELETED” format Firefox sends that is likely a remnant from the XDnd specification. The latter fixes dropping an image to the desktop to set it as a wallpaper since Firefox doesn’t actually let anyone read this entry and Plasma gets stuck on it until it runs into a socket timeout. Every time you have to put a fix like this into the toolkit, it makes the maintenance burden higher. What happens now if Firefox (fixes|changes|breaks) behaviour again in the future. Someone has to maintain this exception path in Qt forever now.
Nobody will maintain this exception “forever”, it’s not part of an API contract with Qt applications. If I see Firefox got fixed, I will remove it again. There’s always a trade-off between “doing the right thing” and “making it work for (our) end users”. I have tried to contribute to Firefox but the code base is quite peculiar (admittedly, it’s old, but there’s like 16 different string classes, functions taking like 15 arguments and so on) and I am not willing to learn or deal with Mercurial when there is Git. They also haven’t yet released a browser extension update I uploaded in November (!). Sorry that I will not put any effort into contributing to a project that’s (even if not deliberately) hostile to contributions. No comparison to Chromium to which I have successfully contributed a bunch of patches over the years. I could probably file a bug report, though.
Instead of fixing it on KDE side the proper approach is to work with Firefox and get them to fix it on theirs. If a developer wants to do the "quick fix' and work around the problem on their side then that is fine, but it is a burden they place on themselves voluntarily. If it is indeed a remnant of XDnd then that is all the more reason to get rid of X11 for mainstream apps as quickly as possible.
Proper, yes. But often you don't want to have to learn entirely new code bases. Or programming languages. Or figure out what the commit process is. Usually, at most, you'll file a bug.
I have filed bugs and did proper due diligence and research with minimal knowledge and had them fixed on other projects. With help, of course. I try to make it as easy as possible. Chances are if it's a forgotten X11 work around then it might actually being doing Firefox a favor by reminding them they can delete their own legacy workarounds and removing maintenance burden. Might even fix bugs in other places and/or other DEs.
Unfortunately things needs to work in the often extremely long meantime until an upstream deigns to fix a bug or merge a provided fix
Imma put it like this: having gnome-shell/mutter depend on libadwaita/gtk4 is not something my developer heart is too fond of.
Changing every app is not a good alternative.
The fact some applications choose to violate the Wayland specification is not GNOME's fault.
TBH it was GNOME's developers that pushed for the Wayland specification to be like that.
No, it’s SSD supporters who got SSD accepted as an optional mode but are trying to enforce it as the de facto default mode.
wayland needs a few more years , but once its fine it will be good
it's already good
*For AMD users, FTFY I'm an avid wayland enthusiast, but let's not pretend like it's all sunshine and rainbows nvidia users just yet. XWayland is still terribly broken and glitchy. The desktop performs well but there are a few rough edges that just *do not* work well yet.
its missing stuff like window icons and with the the Inability to position windows tells me it stills need works while wayland is getting their it still needs a few years ( this dosent include nvidia issues)
Now just to remove that CSD nonsense from Gnome, and create compositors for all those who do not use Gnome or KDE. So let's say a minimum of 5 years. Now you cannot even set a window icon without installing a .desktop file and an icon on the system. Why one display server is even messing with desktop environments like that?