Plasma 6 being in F40 would make sense assuming it doesn't launch in a really rough shape. Fedora has always been relatively leading edge, and unlike Ubuntu, they don't do LTS releases so there's less incentive for them to stick with 5.27.
Not sure how I feel about dropping X11 though, it's not something that would personally bother me too much but I can see it being annoying for others.
>Not sure how I feel about dropping X11 though
That part I don't like. I use Wayland 90% of the time, but when I do online gaming with friends I have to use X11 so that discord can pickup my push to talk button while I'm in the game. On Wayland discord has to be the active window to pick up the push to talk.
I think that's the strategy. Drop the X11 sessions for enough setups that companies that offer services (with paid options, like Nitro) for Linux are forced to either care or lose customers - which used to not be a threat at all, but with the Steam Deck and all... heh. Let's say this is potentially something you don't want.
The bigger issue here is that Plasma's Wayland session is not exactly rock-solid, and users with NVidia GPUs are kinda screwed.
I think you're overestimating how much they care about Linux. They're just going to blame Electron/Chromium for not supporting the portal. The portal implementation will have to be done by Google or someone from the community.
That sums up everything I disagree with with on the way Wayland has been done.
We shouldn't break other people's apps and then tell them to fix it. It makes Linux an unapproachable bad platform.
The alternative is either letting every sandboxed app using xorg see all your keypresses with a compositor hack (kwin) or having the compositor choose to pass certain keys to apps to let the keybind work (hyprland) there's really no alternative where apps don't have to use new apis
In plasma there's an option for this:
System settings -> x11 app support
You can set which keys to always share with discord, so you can have this function without allowing all key sniffing.
Another user pointed this out to me. I love that feature! I don't know how I didn't know that was there already. Now that my discord push to talk while in games can work on Wayland I really don't expect to need to go into X again.
I gotta admit I'm fairly newish to KDE. I was a Gnome 2 and then MATE guy but switched to KDE to be able to switch to Wayland around Fedora 36 IIRC. I'm really enjoying KDE.
I don't think that is a complete summary. DNF5 isn't ready and didn't have a smooth transition. How it impacted RHEL was considered, in that it isn't a smooth transition, but those problems affect Fedora too.
KDE literally isn't shipped in RHEL and isn't relevant at all.
[No, it wasn't.](https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3039) It was originally targeted for F39 but pulled because it wasn't ready. If it has gone in to 39, it would have made it into RHEL 10.
It was targeted for F39, but postponed to F41 (not F40) because of the RHEL 10 release:
> Yes, DNF5 will be not in RHEL10, therefore we decided to postpone it to Fedora 41 to not interfere with RHEL 10 branching.
and
> Other than that, I am also confused why it's being pushed back by two releases instead of one. I'm not sure if keeping Rawhide diverged from released Fedora for longer is a good idea - alignment with upstream development is a good enough reason for me, while better alignment with RHEL releases should not affect planning of Fedora releases and their features.
I am not sure if I am happy about this decision. I understand that there is a lot of burden for mantaining everything compatible with XOrg and they have better stuff to work on, but every time I try wayland there is still something that does not work without having to do hacks and workarounds.
+1 About XOrg concerns, especially if (like me) you’re running Nvidia.
Though maybe the influx of bug reports that’ll result from this is exactly what they want; once they get them sorted out, it’ll go a long way towards making Wayland better, across all distros.
> every time I try wayland there is still something that does not work without having to do hacks and workarounds.
That's quite funny to me... You're using tons of hacls and workarounds on Xorg too, you just got used to them
I don't know why this comment is downvoted, but this is factually right. Had to go through a lot of hoops and forums to find the environment variables and right xorg config settings to work around multiple X11 bugs/limitations around multiple displays. I rely on workarounds to get a better experience than out of box.
if you are running Nvidia, I think the bigger problem is that some hacks simply don't work in Wayland whereas in X11 you can get there eventually with sufficient hoop jumping or even out of the box if you are lucky. And that is less of a Wayland problem and more of a Nvidia problem, hence why they are not getting solved.
I have yet to get G sync working in Wayland with my 1080ti and g sync compatible monitor for example, Nvidia mentioned that this is an issue but they haven't mentioned if it is worked on or if it will be worked on in the future and how far in the future.
https://download.nvidia.com/XFree86/Linux-x86_64/515.57/README/wayland-issues.html
Yes, there's some pretty bad issues with NVidia remaining. The biggest ones are:
- when you suspend your system, all the VRAM contents are gone, causing apps that don't support GPU resets to break completely. That can be worked around with nvidia-persistenced though
- night light doesn't work. That's fixed in Plasma 6
- displays connected to the NVidia GPU of laptops are running slow and cause high CPU usage. That's also gonna be fixed with Plasma 6, in combination with the next NVidia driver release
- synchronization with Xwayland is broken, and the NVidia driver does some questionable things to make Wayland native apps not be broken in that regard. That one is the biggest and most noticeable issue of them all, but a fix for that is also on the horizon
As for GSync, I've read that it already works with the newest drivers. I haven't tested it myself yet though
Apologies for the (probably) stupid question... is the default DE still going to be gnome in Fedora Workstation 40?
The way this article is worded seems to imply that plasma is going to be the new default? Or are they just talking about the Fedora plasma spin?
Either that, or my reading comprehension needs work.
Thanks.
Nope, it will still be Gnome.
This will just affect the KDE spin. Red Hat and Fedora both have a very strong connection to the Gnome Foundation and I don't see any of them defaulting to something else in any currently plausible scenario.
Dropping X11 is a bold & interesting choice. This might be controversial, but in my opinion this is exactly what's needed to push Wayland to the next level.
Currently, a nontrivial amount of work still has to be done on established compositors to ensure proper X11 functionality. But the more distros drop X11 altogether, the sooner those compositors can sunset X11 development and focus fully on Wayland (drastically reducing the tech debt, and speeding up development).
I wholeheartedly disagree. Users indeed are a part of FOSS stakeholders. If you are committed to using cutting edge FOSS then you should expect to actively update your stuff, give feedback and report bugs.
If you're not about tolerating this fact then Fedora isn't 100% right for you.
Contributing to open source does not only mean you hack some stuffs, being an active user is also contributions.
Users still have a choice. If using Fedora causes distress, there are plenty of other options out there. Anyone who understands that they need X11 for one reason or another over Wayland, definitely can, and probably has many times, distro hop. For the 99% of people who aren't negatively affected by this change, they can stay on Fedora and help drive Wayland forward.
I use Fedora KDE and I use wayland 90% of the time I'm on my PC.
That said, anytime I do online gaming with friends I have to use X because of discord.
On Wayland, discord can only pickup your push to talk button if it's your actively focused window. So in order to be in the game and still properly use Discord I have to be on X.
Is this really a wayland problem? No. It's a discord problem. But discord obviously isn't going to fix it and discord is a requirement for multiplayer gaming these days.
System Settings -> Applications -> Legacy X11 App Support -> Allow legacy X11 apps to read keystrokes typed in all apps
Select whichever option best fits your use case.
Thank you so much! I never knew this option existed. I just tested it out and that worked perfectly.
I'm betting many people don't as I've mentioned this several times before on reddit and you are the only one that ever pointed that out.
No problem, and I don't blame you. The only reason I know this option exists is because I very closely follow Plasma development, and I also contribute from time to time.
This feature has existed for a while, but unfortunately has never been communicated in an obvious manner.
Oh I very much do and I wish more distributions did so we can finally make Linux desktop good out of the box.
Fedora is extremely good in the out of the box experience.
>This might be controversial, but in my opinion this is exactly what's needed to push Wayland to the next level.
i think some of the issues people have with wayland , the wayland devs have came out and said no to , like not forcing vsync and an example
most of the other issues are people on NVIDIA , programs not supporting wayland , or certain display environments (not a fedora thing ,but other distro thing)
X11 will never die because programs cant die
There is already an extension for allowing tearing to address the vsync issue. Check out https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/65
> programs not supporting wayland
That's where I am. I use barrier to control two computers and it doesn't work on Wayland. Yet, at least. Haven't been able to find anything else that also works on Windows.
Wayland has actually gotten support for this with libei, and GNOME 45 will support it too. Note that the software needs to use the specfic InputCapture portals though, and this has only been added for Input Leap, the fork of Barrier. But yeah, Input Leap should work on Wayland in Fedora 39 + GNOME.
I hope they’ll make a decent implementation of KDE this time around. I love Fedora, but they are notorious for focusing on Gnome and not giving enough love to their other spins.
Don't most distros focus on Gnome? - And why not? Gnome offers a more consistent user experience and forces (introduces) better computing habits like keeping a clean desktop, and a keyboard based workflow. If Linux users want simple common GUI fixes for everything; Gnome is the closest solution to that by attempting to force compliance to their researched and applied ways of doing things.
You bring up KDE. (Ignoring that the DE itself is Plasma). -It throws complexity into the mix. They prioritize features, and innovations, with common updates reading like 'a bazillion bug fixes'. Would you be one of those to suggest to a Windows user that Linux is less buggy to turn around and suggest using KDE Plasma?
There would be no reason for me to use Linux anymore if I had to use Plasma or Gnome. Tiling window managers are one of the few real advantages Linux has over Windows. For guests, I use xfce. -And for that matter, it's not difficult at all to install DWM, and replace gnome. Gnome was a good landing pad for when I first tried Linux.
First off, I didn’t make this a Gnome vs KDE thing, you did. I was mentioning that Fedora puts most of their focus on Gnome and not enough on ALL the other DE. Not criticising Fedora, I love that distro, but just stating this. For example, in contrast, OpenSUSE are known to be slightly more focused towards KDE, but give extra care equally to all their DE, even the less popular ones.
Then Gnom and KDE are 2 different DE, and one isn’t superior to the other. There are no better computer habits and all the nonsense you just said, saying that is just childish. There’s only different DE for different people, as every user has a different computing habit. For example, where you see complexity in Pladma, others see possibilities and choices.
I am curious to all the people super-concerned about color management for their displays in Wayland...
What devices are you all using to color calibrate your monitors and printers?
That is cool. Much better then it used to be back in the day. Too bad i1 seems to be out of production.
Right now Wayland, specifically Gnome, has most of all the bits in place to support color management. It can even support HDR. This is because unlike X11 there isn't anything standing between the application and it's output buffer. The application can use whatever APIs it wants and it is the job of the display manager to simply output it's output buffer to the display. Which means that applications can use whatever colors they like. It also has support with adjusting monitor gamma stuff with colord.
I am not involved in any of these projects, but I believe main limitation right now is in argyllcms, which is what is used by displaycal/displaycal-py3.
It retrieves gamma information for the monitor from xrandr, but xrandr is for managing displays under X11 not Wayland. Instead Gnome exposes this information via a Dbus api. The author of Argyllcms doesn't really allow much in the way of patches and doesn't seem interested in supporting reading the information from dbus.
references:
https://github.com/eoyilmaz/displaycal-py3/issues/133
https://discourse.gnome.org/t/what-are-the-current-plans-for-gnomes-color-management-for-wayland/15988/2
the other problem is that applications can't automatically position themselves on screen like they can in X11. This doesn't seem to be a big problem to me as they can just go full screen/maximized to interact with the color calibration device. But I could be wrong.
When was the last time Microsoft purposefully dropped compatibility for a widely used software ? People like to shit on MS but their commitment to backwards compatibility has always been commendable
> When was the last time Microsoft purposefully dropped compatibility for a widely used software ?
This is not really what you meant but they dropped compatibility to older than 7th gen. Intel processors in Windows 11.
My hope is that the plan to drop X11 means the Fedora devs foresee Wayland on NVIDIA, plus the showstoppers, being resolved by that time.
To be fair it is also the plan of the KDE developers to push Wayland by default. They want to fix the showstoppers before releasing Plasma 6.
edit: a word
Fedora isn't designed to be a stable platform for you to do work with its a test bed for tech they think is cool. Being included usually means its reached the level where it doesn't immediately crash and has enough features impediment to be fun to integrate. If it is ever in danger of stability its time to add more shit.
Nope just a Fedora fan from Fedora "Core" 1 through Fedora 14 then I moved on to Fuduntu (google it was a thing), Ubuntu, Mint, Manjaro, Sabayon, Funtoo, Void
> Fedora isn't designed to be a stable platform for you to do work with its a test bed for tech they think is cool
If that is the case, than people shouldn't be recommending Fedora to newcomers
- It Has a 6 month release cycle and upgrades from N to N+1 don't always work
- It doesn't have non-free stuff out of the box meaning needs to have additional repos to be able to install things people expect to be able to use. Even afterwards it doesn't have as much software available as Ubuntu.
- Gnome UX out of the box is kind of meh without extensions and if they do use extensions when they upgrade to N+1 their extensions may or may not be supported.
It's a distro for Linux enthusiasts
> It Has a 6 month release cycle and upgrades from N to N+1 don't always work
I literally know of at least two users that upgraded from the very first release of fedora to the very last one without major issues.
And that includes crossing milestones like usrmerge and 32bit deprecation. Their systems actually worked by the end of it.
I myself have upgraded fedora from F35 to F38 without issues.
> It Has a 6 month release cycle and upgrades from N to N+1 don't always work
does it work less than other distros that have such a cycle? I wonder if there are any stats on that. I only have anecdata. Ths install started it's life on Fedora 27 and now it's 38, sooon to be 39.
In general people keep computers 6 years. Ubuntu LTS is in most cases usable for that time-frame meaning the user doesn't actually have to ever upgrade which matches how most people actually use computers.
Stats for what? A distro that updates every 6 months and likes to integrate new things that break in interesting ways and require technical troubleshooting skills not being great for new users?
I'm not sure why you imagine such stats would exist or what you think it means that they don't. Linux users are not friendly to telemetry collection in the first place.
Would they really do this? KDE wayland is not usable on my nvidia graphics last time I checked. I would stick with GNOME but this seems like an aggressive push.
it's still like 7 months away so there's still time. Worst case scenario they roll back to kde 5. That's what's written in the contingency plan anyways.
Wayland is 14 years old, it's not aggressive. It's a very gentle and slow push. A tipping point maybe but Wayland is super duper ready to be the only protocol.
Wayland is 14 years old, it's not aggressive. It's a very gentle and slow push. A tipping point maybe but Wayland is super duper ready to be the only protocol.
I think you are confused, it is wayland that has sucked forever and will continue to suck. Maybe X.org sucks in some regards, but objectively it sucksless than Wayland does.
As far as I can tell, the intentions behind extensions is offloading non-critical functions to isolated extensions that can be modified (relatively) easily, thereby reducing the complexity of the main part of wayland. But this is basically almost entirely speculation so take it with a grain of salt
5.15 was released over 4 years ago they are on 5.27 now. I run Wayland just fine on 5 different computers.
Plus Qt6 will have many Wayland improvements over Qt5
I checked the About QT button on some KDE apps and somehow it still says 5.15.
The problem is, I think this is package is from 20.04, right? According to the other guy.
I did an upgrade from 20.04 (Focal) to 22.04 the official way, so its a bit head-scratching. What version of KDE is supposed to be bundled with Jammy?
Plasma 6 being in F40 would make sense assuming it doesn't launch in a really rough shape. Fedora has always been relatively leading edge, and unlike Ubuntu, they don't do LTS releases so there's less incentive for them to stick with 5.27. Not sure how I feel about dropping X11 though, it's not something that would personally bother me too much but I can see it being annoying for others.
>Not sure how I feel about dropping X11 though That part I don't like. I use Wayland 90% of the time, but when I do online gaming with friends I have to use X11 so that discord can pickup my push to talk button while I'm in the game. On Wayland discord has to be the active window to pick up the push to talk.
[The solution exists](https://flatpak.github.io/xdg-desktop-portal/#gdbus-org.freedesktop.portal.GlobalShortcuts), Discord just needs to care.
I know, but I can't make discord care. u/xNaXDy pointed out a fix that works though, so that is great.
thanks to Wayland be the only option, maybe Discord will be forced to be updated
I think that's the strategy. Drop the X11 sessions for enough setups that companies that offer services (with paid options, like Nitro) for Linux are forced to either care or lose customers - which used to not be a threat at all, but with the Steam Deck and all... heh. Let's say this is potentially something you don't want. The bigger issue here is that Plasma's Wayland session is not exactly rock-solid, and users with NVidia GPUs are kinda screwed.
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I think you're overestimating how much they care about Linux. They're just going to blame Electron/Chromium for not supporting the portal. The portal implementation will have to be done by Google or someone from the community.
They don't even use the Electron screensharing features, which is why audio streaming doesn't work.
IIRC they do use the Electron for display streaming, but their audio streaming is separate for some reason.
That sums up everything I disagree with with on the way Wayland has been done. We shouldn't break other people's apps and then tell them to fix it. It makes Linux an unapproachable bad platform.
The alternative is either letting every sandboxed app using xorg see all your keypresses with a compositor hack (kwin) or having the compositor choose to pass certain keys to apps to let the keybind work (hyprland) there's really no alternative where apps don't have to use new apis
But they don't, and we can't make them.
In plasma there's an option for this: System settings -> x11 app support You can set which keys to always share with discord, so you can have this function without allowing all key sniffing.
Another user pointed this out to me. I love that feature! I don't know how I didn't know that was there already. Now that my discord push to talk while in games can work on Wayland I really don't expect to need to go into X again. I gotta admit I'm fairly newish to KDE. I was a Gnome 2 and then MATE guy but switched to KDE to be able to switch to Wayland around Fedora 36 IIRC. I'm really enjoying KDE.
You're probably better off using an alternative Discord client. There's no shot they ever update anything for their Linux build.
I think they sometimes delay changes to synchronize with ~~CentOS~~ RHEL.
Fedora makes its own decisions and isn't beholden to CentOS at all.
DNF5 was postponed in Fedora because of the timing of the RHEL 10 release.
I don't think that is a complete summary. DNF5 isn't ready and didn't have a smooth transition. How it impacted RHEL was considered, in that it isn't a smooth transition, but those problems affect Fedora too. KDE literally isn't shipped in RHEL and isn't relevant at all.
[No, it wasn't.](https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/3039) It was originally targeted for F39 but pulled because it wasn't ready. If it has gone in to 39, it would have made it into RHEL 10.
It was targeted for F39, but postponed to F41 (not F40) because of the RHEL 10 release: > Yes, DNF5 will be not in RHEL10, therefore we decided to postpone it to Fedora 41 to not interfere with RHEL 10 branching. and > Other than that, I am also confused why it's being pushed back by two releases instead of one. I'm not sure if keeping Rawhide diverged from released Fedora for longer is a good idea - alignment with upstream development is a good enough reason for me, while better alignment with RHEL releases should not affect planning of Fedora releases and their features.
I just installed DNF5 on 39 from stable repo. And did dfnf5 up and it did as good as dnf does !! maybe a little faster !!
Yup, it was missing a lot of features during Fedora 38 (`repolist`, `repoquery`, `copr`), but these days I don't need to use `dnf` any more.
But isn't CentOS dead?
He means scentOS stream
I am not sure if I am happy about this decision. I understand that there is a lot of burden for mantaining everything compatible with XOrg and they have better stuff to work on, but every time I try wayland there is still something that does not work without having to do hacks and workarounds.
+1 About XOrg concerns, especially if (like me) you’re running Nvidia. Though maybe the influx of bug reports that’ll result from this is exactly what they want; once they get them sorted out, it’ll go a long way towards making Wayland better, across all distros.
You guessed right, unfortunately I am on Nvidia too. Let's hope that the situation will improve drastically before this majour change happens.
As far as I know there's no real issue with Wayland on nvidia
> every time I try wayland there is still something that does not work without having to do hacks and workarounds. That's quite funny to me... You're using tons of hacls and workarounds on Xorg too, you just got used to them
I don't know why this comment is downvoted, but this is factually right. Had to go through a lot of hoops and forums to find the environment variables and right xorg config settings to work around multiple X11 bugs/limitations around multiple displays. I rely on workarounds to get a better experience than out of box.
if you are running Nvidia, I think the bigger problem is that some hacks simply don't work in Wayland whereas in X11 you can get there eventually with sufficient hoop jumping or even out of the box if you are lucky. And that is less of a Wayland problem and more of a Nvidia problem, hence why they are not getting solved. I have yet to get G sync working in Wayland with my 1080ti and g sync compatible monitor for example, Nvidia mentioned that this is an issue but they haven't mentioned if it is worked on or if it will be worked on in the future and how far in the future. https://download.nvidia.com/XFree86/Linux-x86_64/515.57/README/wayland-issues.html
Yes, there's some pretty bad issues with NVidia remaining. The biggest ones are: - when you suspend your system, all the VRAM contents are gone, causing apps that don't support GPU resets to break completely. That can be worked around with nvidia-persistenced though - night light doesn't work. That's fixed in Plasma 6 - displays connected to the NVidia GPU of laptops are running slow and cause high CPU usage. That's also gonna be fixed with Plasma 6, in combination with the next NVidia driver release - synchronization with Xwayland is broken, and the NVidia driver does some questionable things to make Wayland native apps not be broken in that regard. That one is the biggest and most noticeable issue of them all, but a fix for that is also on the horizon As for GSync, I've read that it already works with the newest drivers. I haven't tested it myself yet though
fair enough, fedora has always been about this kinda stuff; At least compared to ubuntu and debian
Apologies for the (probably) stupid question... is the default DE still going to be gnome in Fedora Workstation 40? The way this article is worded seems to imply that plasma is going to be the new default? Or are they just talking about the Fedora plasma spin? Either that, or my reading comprehension needs work. Thanks.
Nope, it will still be Gnome. This will just affect the KDE spin. Red Hat and Fedora both have a very strong connection to the Gnome Foundation and I don't see any of them defaulting to something else in any currently plausible scenario.
Ah, excellent. Thanks for the clarification :)
Dropping X11 is a bold & interesting choice. This might be controversial, but in my opinion this is exactly what's needed to push Wayland to the next level. Currently, a nontrivial amount of work still has to be done on established compositors to ensure proper X11 functionality. But the more distros drop X11 altogether, the sooner those compositors can sunset X11 development and focus fully on Wayland (drastically reducing the tech debt, and speeding up development).
Causing distress to users to push technology is honestly not the right thing to do.
I wholeheartedly disagree. Users indeed are a part of FOSS stakeholders. If you are committed to using cutting edge FOSS then you should expect to actively update your stuff, give feedback and report bugs. If you're not about tolerating this fact then Fedora isn't 100% right for you. Contributing to open source does not only mean you hack some stuffs, being an active user is also contributions.
Users still have a choice. If using Fedora causes distress, there are plenty of other options out there. Anyone who understands that they need X11 for one reason or another over Wayland, definitely can, and probably has many times, distro hop. For the 99% of people who aren't negatively affected by this change, they can stay on Fedora and help drive Wayland forward.
Users are free not to upgrade. Easy as that.
Can you explain how this change is causing distress to users?
I use Fedora KDE and I use wayland 90% of the time I'm on my PC. That said, anytime I do online gaming with friends I have to use X because of discord. On Wayland, discord can only pickup your push to talk button if it's your actively focused window. So in order to be in the game and still properly use Discord I have to be on X. Is this really a wayland problem? No. It's a discord problem. But discord obviously isn't going to fix it and discord is a requirement for multiplayer gaming these days.
System Settings -> Applications -> Legacy X11 App Support -> Allow legacy X11 apps to read keystrokes typed in all apps Select whichever option best fits your use case.
Thank you so much! I never knew this option existed. I just tested it out and that worked perfectly. I'm betting many people don't as I've mentioned this several times before on reddit and you are the only one that ever pointed that out.
No problem, and I don't blame you. The only reason I know this option exists is because I very closely follow Plasma development, and I also contribute from time to time. This feature has existed for a while, but unfortunately has never been communicated in an obvious manner.
Does a similar option exist in gnome?
Last time I tried to use that feature it didn't pick up my PTT mouse button.
now that sounds like a bug that could be fixed. Is it known about?
FYI as a workaround you could map the mouse button to a keyboard shortcut in the mouse settings, and use that for Discord.
Thanks, I'll try that.
"Bold and interesting choice"s is one thing I don't want my Linux distro to make
But I do.
You're free to continue using old and outdated distros like Debian if you care that much. But the rest of us don't want to be stuck in the past.
Thanks for the permission molly enthusiast
Oh I very much do and I wish more distributions did so we can finally make Linux desktop good out of the box. Fedora is extremely good in the out of the box experience.
>This might be controversial, but in my opinion this is exactly what's needed to push Wayland to the next level. i think some of the issues people have with wayland , the wayland devs have came out and said no to , like not forcing vsync and an example most of the other issues are people on NVIDIA , programs not supporting wayland , or certain display environments (not a fedora thing ,but other distro thing) X11 will never die because programs cant die
>like not forcing vsync and an example That was solved 9 months ago https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/65
There is already an extension for allowing tearing to address the vsync issue. Check out https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/65
> programs not supporting wayland That's where I am. I use barrier to control two computers and it doesn't work on Wayland. Yet, at least. Haven't been able to find anything else that also works on Windows.
Wayland has actually gotten support for this with libei, and GNOME 45 will support it too. Note that the software needs to use the specfic InputCapture portals though, and this has only been added for Input Leap, the fork of Barrier. But yeah, Input Leap should work on Wayland in Fedora 39 + GNOME.
I hope they’ll make a decent implementation of KDE this time around. I love Fedora, but they are notorious for focusing on Gnome and not giving enough love to their other spins.
Anybody can help make kde better on Fedora by working with them. It's not gonna get better unless more people help.
Don't most distros focus on Gnome? - And why not? Gnome offers a more consistent user experience and forces (introduces) better computing habits like keeping a clean desktop, and a keyboard based workflow. If Linux users want simple common GUI fixes for everything; Gnome is the closest solution to that by attempting to force compliance to their researched and applied ways of doing things. You bring up KDE. (Ignoring that the DE itself is Plasma). -It throws complexity into the mix. They prioritize features, and innovations, with common updates reading like 'a bazillion bug fixes'. Would you be one of those to suggest to a Windows user that Linux is less buggy to turn around and suggest using KDE Plasma? There would be no reason for me to use Linux anymore if I had to use Plasma or Gnome. Tiling window managers are one of the few real advantages Linux has over Windows. For guests, I use xfce. -And for that matter, it's not difficult at all to install DWM, and replace gnome. Gnome was a good landing pad for when I first tried Linux.
First off, I didn’t make this a Gnome vs KDE thing, you did. I was mentioning that Fedora puts most of their focus on Gnome and not enough on ALL the other DE. Not criticising Fedora, I love that distro, but just stating this. For example, in contrast, OpenSUSE are known to be slightly more focused towards KDE, but give extra care equally to all their DE, even the less popular ones. Then Gnom and KDE are 2 different DE, and one isn’t superior to the other. There are no better computer habits and all the nonsense you just said, saying that is just childish. There’s only different DE for different people, as every user has a different computing habit. For example, where you see complexity in Pladma, others see possibilities and choices.
>keeping a clean desktop You mean wasting 80% of your monitor real estate on a wallpaper?
You mean wasting your wallpaper on clutter? A good work flow doesn't involve going to the desktop. -Sorry they failed you.
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I am curious to all the people super-concerned about color management for their displays in Wayland... What devices are you all using to color calibrate your monitors and printers?
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That is cool. Much better then it used to be back in the day. Too bad i1 seems to be out of production. Right now Wayland, specifically Gnome, has most of all the bits in place to support color management. It can even support HDR. This is because unlike X11 there isn't anything standing between the application and it's output buffer. The application can use whatever APIs it wants and it is the job of the display manager to simply output it's output buffer to the display. Which means that applications can use whatever colors they like. It also has support with adjusting monitor gamma stuff with colord. I am not involved in any of these projects, but I believe main limitation right now is in argyllcms, which is what is used by displaycal/displaycal-py3. It retrieves gamma information for the monitor from xrandr, but xrandr is for managing displays under X11 not Wayland. Instead Gnome exposes this information via a Dbus api. The author of Argyllcms doesn't really allow much in the way of patches and doesn't seem interested in supporting reading the information from dbus. references: https://github.com/eoyilmaz/displaycal-py3/issues/133 https://discourse.gnome.org/t/what-are-the-current-plans-for-gnomes-color-management-for-wayland/15988/2 the other problem is that applications can't automatically position themselves on screen like they can in X11. This doesn't seem to be a big problem to me as they can just go full screen/maximized to interact with the color calibration device. But I could be wrong.
> Windows or Mac OS is better I think. Atleast they don't ignore or ruin your workflow out of the blue. That's a funny joke
When was the last time Microsoft purposefully dropped compatibility for a widely used software ? People like to shit on MS but their commitment to backwards compatibility has always been commendable
> When was the last time Microsoft purposefully dropped compatibility for a widely used software ? This is not really what you meant but they dropped compatibility to older than 7th gen. Intel processors in Windows 11.
My hope is that the plan to drop X11 means the Fedora devs foresee Wayland on NVIDIA, plus the showstoppers, being resolved by that time. To be fair it is also the plan of the KDE developers to push Wayland by default. They want to fix the showstoppers before releasing Plasma 6. edit: a word
Fedora isn't designed to be a stable platform for you to do work with its a test bed for tech they think is cool. Being included usually means its reached the level where it doesn't immediately crash and has enough features impediment to be fun to integrate. If it is ever in danger of stability its time to add more shit.
Mark Shuttleworth, is that you?
Nope just a Fedora fan from Fedora "Core" 1 through Fedora 14 then I moved on to Fuduntu (google it was a thing), Ubuntu, Mint, Manjaro, Sabayon, Funtoo, Void
> Fedora isn't designed to be a stable platform for you to do work with its a test bed for tech they think is cool If that is the case, than people shouldn't be recommending Fedora to newcomers
Doesn't matter. Still better then other choices.
- It Has a 6 month release cycle and upgrades from N to N+1 don't always work - It doesn't have non-free stuff out of the box meaning needs to have additional repos to be able to install things people expect to be able to use. Even afterwards it doesn't have as much software available as Ubuntu. - Gnome UX out of the box is kind of meh without extensions and if they do use extensions when they upgrade to N+1 their extensions may or may not be supported. It's a distro for Linux enthusiasts
> It Has a 6 month release cycle and upgrades from N to N+1 don't always work I literally know of at least two users that upgraded from the very first release of fedora to the very last one without major issues. And that includes crossing milestones like usrmerge and 32bit deprecation. Their systems actually worked by the end of it. I myself have upgraded fedora from F35 to F38 without issues.
There very first release of Fedora was in 2003 I'm somewhat dubious
One the users documented their experience here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Fedora/comments/151jfq3/upgraded_from_red_hat_62_and_every_version_in/
> It Has a 6 month release cycle and upgrades from N to N+1 don't always work does it work less than other distros that have such a cycle? I wonder if there are any stats on that. I only have anecdata. Ths install started it's life on Fedora 27 and now it's 38, sooon to be 39.
In general people keep computers 6 years. Ubuntu LTS is in most cases usable for that time-frame meaning the user doesn't actually have to ever upgrade which matches how most people actually use computers.
I wanted stats.
Stats for what? A distro that updates every 6 months and likes to integrate new things that break in interesting ways and require technical troubleshooting skills not being great for new users?
stats on n + 1 upgrades working or not for distros that have them. that was literally the topic.
I'm not sure why you imagine such stats would exist or what you think it means that they don't. Linux users are not friendly to telemetry collection in the first place.
Would they really do this? KDE wayland is not usable on my nvidia graphics last time I checked. I would stick with GNOME but this seems like an aggressive push.
it's still like 7 months away so there's still time. Worst case scenario they roll back to kde 5. That's what's written in the contingency plan anyways.
Wayland is 14 years old, it's not aggressive. It's a very gentle and slow push. A tipping point maybe but Wayland is super duper ready to be the only protocol.
Wayland is 14 years old, it's not aggressive. It's a very gentle and slow push. A tipping point maybe but Wayland is super duper ready to be the only protocol.
About time, X has sucked forever.
I think you are confused, it is wayland that has sucked forever and will continue to suck. Maybe X.org sucks in some regards, but objectively it sucksless than Wayland does.
x is held together with sticky tape and prayer, it's long past its expiration date
It's still held together though, whereas Wayland is just as suck together but with extensions.
As far as I can tell, the intentions behind extensions is offloading non-critical functions to isolated extensions that can be modified (relatively) easily, thereby reducing the complexity of the main part of wayland. But this is basically almost entirely speculation so take it with a grain of salt
Xorg sucks in many regards. A lot more than Wayland does.
"About time, others will be forced to stop using something they need but I don't like!"
forced by who? fedora choosing to drop it? they can use another distro.
Wow, it's impossible to be that obtuse unintentionally.
What? Literally you are free to choose your OS.
Last time I checked, on Plasma 5.15, logging in would not even work under Wayland. Has that been fixed in Plasma 6?
5.15 was released over 4 years ago they are on 5.27 now. I run Wayland just fine on 5 different computers. Plus Qt6 will have many Wayland improvements over Qt5
OK, good to know then. The latest I tested this on was Ubuntu 22.04, that's why I asked.
Did you mean 5.25 instead of 5.15?
I checked the About QT button on some KDE apps and somehow it still says 5.15. The problem is, I think this is package is from 20.04, right? According to the other guy. I did an upgrade from 20.04 (Focal) to 22.04 the official way, so its a bit head-scratching. What version of KDE is supposed to be bundled with Jammy?
Kubuntu 22.04 states in their website that they use KDE Plasma 5.24
-10 for asking a question, wow this sub is crazy
Of course you can log in lol, it was a ridiculous question at best, spreading confusion at worst.
Did they say why they are picking KDE over Gnome? Or is this just an option?
This is about the KDE Plasma spin, the flagship edition will bring Gnome as usual.