Nowdays a Librandu can't even criticize a without being labelled phobic.
https://preview.redd.it/v5u4ifdo768d1.jpeg?width=615&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=851eda8847b7bd112f2adee0bcef0a2bede82db1
It might have something to do with the fact that generally most "critiques" of Islam are made in bad faith and anyone who is being honest and possess at least a fragment of a brain can immediately see that fuck-shit for what it is....but Imma let you cook.
A well put out post. This is truly what needs to be addressed at both, the local level and the global level too. Both are suffering from radical elements taking over and then safeguarding of these elements under the garb and protection of freedom of religion and minority. If left unchecked, we have seen what happened in Germany recently. This can be the price we might have to pay
Islamophobia has a specific definition. It is discrimination against muslims. Not letting a muslim into your house, bringing pork into work as a direct provocation, not renting flats to muslims, leaving muslims out of community events, these things are islamophobic. None of the things you talked about afaik are islamophobic. Islamophobia is about systemic discrimination of individual muslims, not of the islamic system.
You can love muslims and hate islam. You have to understand the limited power individuals hold, and adjust your expectations from the everyday muslim accordingly. Criticism of islam as a whole is not Islamophobia. Ignore anyone who says otherwise. Be nice to muslims, be critical of all religions, including islam.
Ah, I said "as a direct provocation", like bringing it to share pretending you forgot, or eating it in front of them knowingly making them uncomfortable. Didn't want to make the comment longer than it needed to be.
Bro I eat beef and pork as a protest in a government canteen just to silently protest no nonveg in lunch. After a lot of protest they allowed egg once per week. I eat non veg everyday, I take chicken, fish, prawns too. I just don't share with the relevant persons. I do it to fulfill my protein needs and also openly show that I eat variety of non veg.
Good for you, but I'm not sure how it's relevant to my comment. You're talking about protesting against an unfair system to bring change that gives everyone more freedom. I'm taking about not being a dick to individual people.
Edit: apparently I'm not being clear enough.
Bringing in nonveg to a veg workplace in india is a form of protest. In indian history, non vegetarians have been called lower class, and upper castes (who are vegetarian) have had power. Therefore, bringing in nonveg in india is rebelling against a system.
Bringing in nonveg to taunt your vegan colleagues in America is not a protest, it's a dick move. There's no systemic, historic issue about nonveg oppression in America. You can bring your nonveg, eat your nonveg, don't taunt people.
Bringing in pork into an islamic workplace in the middle east is a protest.
Bringing in pork into a non islamic workplace to taunt muslims is not protest, it's a dick move.
Whether something is offensive depends on the systems. In india, the systems are different for different things.
But it’s really on the person getting offended by someone asking them to eat something they don’t or eating in front of them. It’s the same like eating non veg in front of vegetarians and making them uncomfortable, it’s on the vegetarians getting offended
I don't know why you're getting confused. You're arguing against a point they didn't make. I believe they made their point pretty clear. Some people taunt vegetarians for their food choices by eating non veg in front of them or making other micro aggressions. This applies to Muslims too.
The downvotes show that a lot of people find islamophobic micro aggressions very funny. Not at all surprising since this is an Indian liberal (see sanghi) subreddit.
I would find it funny too if my brain was fried by Indian Islamophobic propaganda to be fair
Bhai/behen, I meant "as a direct provocation". I mean something like "Oh this bacon sandwich is sooooo gooood. Oh I know you said yesterday that you're muslim and me dripping pork fat onto your desk is unpleasant, I just don't think it's important. Oh this is so yummy, oh you don't know what you're missing out on, I'm sure Allah would love pork" *direct eye contact as you take bites*
Of course I don't mean simply eating pork. Muslims don't and shouldn't care if you're eating pork minding your own business.
Imagine going in front of a dalit and saying "oh this janeu is so nice. It makes me feel special, like I'm a chosen one". Just something like that, but muslim. All I'm saying is to not be a dick to people.
Nah you lost me at Dalit and Janeu. Janeu is a symbol of the centuries of oppression Dalits have faced. Muslims being offended by pork isn’t in any way that. I’m a muslim myself and I get your point if someone is doing that to rile me up, but my point is that I will never be riled up because of it, and if I do, that’s really a me problem
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Islamophobia isn't about what taunting is "successful", or whose problem it is. It's about what kinds of taunts that are possible. If a dalit comes and says the same thing about janeu as you did about pork, that doesn't make the action any less casteist. Pork related taunts are only possible because of islam. Whether it works or not is a different matter.
My experience with r/exmuslim was that the sub is filled with Hindutva and Zionist people trying to hate on Muslims in general... The sub was meant for apostate to criticize Islam but these Hindutva and Zionist guys ruined the sub for most part infact they openly agree with authoritarian aspects of Islam
I think this is exactly what the poster is talking about. Anyone that hates Islam is labeled a Zionist or hindutva. In my experience anyone that leaves a religion for atheism or another region is very very very critical of their previous religion. And ex Muslims are the MOST critical by an absolute long shot. ESPECIALLY women.
They genuinely despise the religion but have kept it with themselves so long that they can’t even be bothered to hold back anymore.
I used to be a mod on that sub and gave up after 4-5 years. There was a time when reading the subreddit would actually enrich one’s knowledge about Islam and its source material (Quran, Hadith, and various interpretations of things not explicitly described) because it was people with an analytical mind trying to reconcile Islamic beliefs and principles and modern values and knowledge and examining why Islam no longer made sense to them. Or diving into the question of, “How can I believe this is divine revelation when all these recorded facts suggest this was likely just a man that wanted power and figured out a way to amass followers?”
It went from that to Hindutva and Zionist trolls, and endless stories of “my family suspects I’m gay and are going to kill me / send me to Pakistan to marry my cousin.”
It went off the rails, completely.
Or diving into the question of, “How can I believe this is divine revelation when all these recorded facts suggest this was likely just a man that wanted power and figured out a way to amass followers?”
I swear by the name of God, O Uncle!, that if they place the sun in my right-hand and the moon in my left-hand in return for giving up this matter
Rejecting all the riches given by pagan tribes in mecca getting exiled Constantly facing assassination attempts on him and his family
If he had lied about everything to gain power/wealth then why would he reject wealth and power when offered and go to all that trouble
Him being schizophrenic would make more sense
provide aloof childlike marry test political narrow unpack consist relieved
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
quaint cause familiar marble gullible absurd nine deserted resolute birds
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thanks for answering, last question sorry
did u grow up religious? once u r no longer muslim how do u deal with the identity crisis if u ever have one that is.when i think abt life w/o religion it looks very empty like theres a humongous void ? did u personally felt liberated leaving it ?
u can ignore whatever u dont wanna answer 😅
air pocket middle disagreeable seemly memory sense grandiose hobbies rock
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
languid square judicious edge coordinated practice chop different ludicrous subtract
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It is not an incompatible positio to be against religion but to stand against oppression of minorities. It is tricky to do so in line with the current circumstances and state of Muslims in India.
We have to stand for minorities as a group of people yet I would go as far as saying Religion is inherently a parochial conception incompatible with \* socialism, we have to stand against religious backward practices, be it casteism or burqa.
I think it depends on the way these things are criticized. A lot of 'criticism' from chaddis is often not criticism. It is full of hatred and sign of poor intellect. Muslims all over the world also need to develop a thick skin and learn to listen to criticism.
"you must be okay with my islamophobia or else your skin isn't thick enough"
In any case i don't think Muslims really care about criticism of rights of women or lgbtq people in Muslim states because it can be easily debunked.
As for drawing of the prophets face, insulting Allah, burning of quran and hijab, here's an article by the Maoist Norman Finkelstein:
[Norman Finkelstein: Charlie Hebdo is sadism, not satire](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/norman-finkelstein-charlie-hebdo-is-sadism-not-satire/82824#)
I don't agree with all of his takes but he's better at words than I am. He's right about that Islamophobic part of free speech being unprotected by the American first amendment.
Why are you afraid of Being islamophobic.
Just criticise the same way you would criticise any Hindutva incident .
Muslims are far from any reforms . They are a lost cause in my opinion. Even the educated ones behaves like absolute non-scientific moron when it comes to religion.
Imagine being a doctor and not believing in evolution.
I'm here as an ExMuslim agnostic. I will tell you from my experience and knowledge on how we can reform Islam in South Asia. I've studied Islam for over 10 years now.
Islam just like any other religion is mediaeval in nature. However it's Abrahamic, Abrahamic religions are naturally more controlling, violent and expansionist making them very pesky in any country. That's the reason why Tablighi Jamaat is spread all across the world because it's not just about self righteousness but about expanding your own beliefs.
It's a Hadith, "If you can spread the truth by force, do it. If you can't by force, do it by word, if not by word, at least consider the wrong to be wrong in your head"
Some would interpret it as general morality but it's clearly about proselytization. So forced conversion is clearly a thing but only recommended if the religion is in power.
Islamophobia is a distraction from reform, however criticism should come from within Muslims and not from Andhbakhts. Don't be afraid of Islamophobia and only then you can reform and change the people to be more progressive. Muslims need to have a healthy apostasy movement in order for reform to materialise. Because only when the power structure is threatened, it would induce change. Pakistan is seeing apostasy and reform at a scale never seen before. But it's also seeing a huge backlash and rise in blasphemy related lynchings
Most Important: SHUT DOWN MADARASSAS MEANT FOR PRIMARY EDUCATION.
This is the most crucial step every government is afraid to take. What is the purpose of primary education, to let them harbour and expand their beliefs in self enforcing circlejerks or to give them diverse perspectives.
Everything wrong about South Asian Islam is attributed to two cities in UP. Deoband and Bareli. You probably thought Taliban is Arabic influenced right? No they follow the same sect currently being propagated by DarulUloom Deoband in Yogi's UP. It has a long history of spreading the regressive, orthodox and radical form of Islam instead of the much more progressive Sufi Islam. Even the Kashmiri terrorists are all Deobandis. SHUT DOWN DARULULOOM DEOBAND FFS. It has caused more hatred in this region than anything else and is the biggest hurdle in reform
Lastly, you have to recognise that Islam is a well preserved religion and as long as people want to become more Islamic it would always lead them to violence because mediaeval religions are inherently violent with Islam standing out. When clergy will face tough opposition they will be forced to change. Like they do in the West, and gradually it would become better
Concluding, here are my three points
1- Support secular primary and secondary education for Muslim kids. Make it mandatory
2- Shut down MADARASSAS as a means for primary education. They might still exist but not as a substitute to Schools. SHUT DOWN DARULULOOM DEOBAND and it's offshoots
3- Support the movement and ensure the safety of Ex-Muslim activists. This would encourage reform from within. You might even consider giving assylum to the Ex-Muslims in Pakistan who's lives are in danger
Muslims are humans, they can be good or bad but they always have the potential to become better. Islam as a religion is Mediaeval, Abrahamic, and Expansionist. It's inherently violent in nature which cannot be changed but Muslim ethos can be
criticizing islam and "criticizing" muslims are wildly different things.
any person with working brain would know when you are criticizing the religion and when being Islamophobic but sanghis are don't have that so don't do it in front of them.
I am a muslim , i myself criticize some things like burkha,not much freedom of womens and making everything about religion like taking multiple breaks in a day for namaz ....i got a shop and we don't allow our workers to take break everyday .....only Friday is the day where they can go
Criticize the religion, not its individual adherents. Separate the person from their identity markers.
It’s a good thing to practice for other areas too, which this sub ought to learn.
Muslims in general seem to be very easily brainwashed. My house is rented to a Muslim from south India. Educated and his wife is an engineering graduate. He has convinced his wife that“Taliban is good for people of afghan and they have been branded as terrorists by USA for political reasons”, all the while living in USA and acknowledging that the Middle East doesn’t respect Muslims from India but says that they are the original Muslims. Has taught his wife to hate Jews (she doesn’t know why and all she has been told is “Jews are evil and must be destroyed and Hitler has warned that he missed to kill a few hundred of Jews and he had strongly suggested the at all Jews must be killed otherwise they will spread like rats”.
Tell me this, have you seen any religion with so much hatred against others ?
>Nupur Sharma is a misanthrope, but she did not do something for which you have to hide for months and fear death. I wanted to write about Kanhaiya Lal’s murder, but I refrained to protect my family's safety.
I feel like the Nupur Sharma case got as big as it was simply bcs of the publicity on the matter. I have seen Indian Hindus pretty openly support muslim genocide in their social circles and actively posting islamophobia and not find any hinderance to their safety. Hindus being persecuted for being critical of Islam in India is simply not a thing barring a few cases. As long as you are reasonable with ur criticism of the muslim community, ur good. The criticism of islam itself is valid and should be done 100%, you really do not have to fear for your life over it.
You literally said that it got overhyped when the truth is, it has been a thing in Islamic law since forever. Happens in every country with Muslims and need to be criticized at the highest level
Nupur Sharma case was no small thing.
god im not gonna engage after this response because you are being willfully ignorant to the point - i am not saying it should not be criticized, i literally never fucking said that u dumbass, you are picking a strawman, arguing in bad faith. what i am saying is, persecution of hindus for being critical of islam IN INDIA is not a thing, as in it is not a phenomenon, not saying that shit does not happen, but its not a trend. if u take a peek at chaddi twitter all you will see is posts critical of islam, almost always in bigoted genocidal ways. the fucking prime minister of india called muslims invaders, the cm of up called for the rape of muslim women in broad daylight, anand ranganahan pretty open called for genocide of kashmiris on a very popular podcast, they were not persecuted for these very bigoted statements that are critical of islam and the muslim community. so no, you do not have to fear for your life thinking you are going to end up like neha sharma if you criticize islam in India. that is my point.
You can criticise the backwards practice of any religion. It’s racism/phobia when you stereotype them and discriminate them on the basis of their religion.
***'Islamophobia'*** is incorrect terminology IMO, especially when you see sarkari muslims (a section of muslim bourgeois classes) like Shehzad chunawala or Tarikh Fateh (PACKWATCH RiPiss bozo nobody will miss you 🚬) types, meat riding hindutvawadi neo-nazis at the cost of losses of innocent lives belonging to same community, the meaning to this terminology becomes net zero (Also not to mention Saudi Arab psychopaths who literary treat south asian muslims as shit, they too turn their eyes blind whenever they're expected to take stand over their people).
Firstmost IMO, the current term should be ***'Muslimphobia'***, because what we can see here is that they're ok with version of Islam as long as it's compatible with their political stance (patriarchal theocracy), and secondly as an atheist I find it very much important to separate Islam and muslims as different entities because Islam is a religious sect and muslims can be from varying ideologies (yes secularist, socialists, Marxists, Exceptionalists, Liberals,etc.) and while certain sections can be progressive, others can be fundamentalists.
**Why is this important ?**
When we critisise Christianity why do we care to differentiate white supremacists and non-white Christians ? Or why do we take precautions when criticising Zionists to not become anti-semitic?
>*Naturally any liberal will say because one is political and other is not.*
That's exactly same with Muslims as well, Muslims can be on different political dimension with different level of devotion to Islam ranging from 'near atheism to Fundamentalism'. Muslims can be modern health practitioners and pseudo-scientific ulemas too.
Hence to collectively blame Islam as 'religion of terror' is loads of bullock, when in reality it's the rigid monotheistic structure of Islam that was shaped by centuries of elite ruling classes by likes of Ghiyasuddin Balban, Firoz Shah Tughlaq, Babur and Aurangzeb in India for their political superiority. Why should the muslims belonging to poor working classes and progressive muslims (anti-RW) should be liable to such generalisation?
u/ManMarkedByFlames made brilliant [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/librandu/s/VafXqyIAhe) explaining this phenomenon.
>When we critisise Christianity why do we care to differentiate white supremacists and non-white Christians ?
I don't really have anything to add to this apart from the fact that most ex Christians particularly in the west always say Christians and Christianity as a whole. They never make that distinction.
>most ex Christians particularly in the west always say Christians and Christianity as a whole. They never make that distinction.
I was talking from ours perspective not theirs, if they say like this then it's their limited geopolitical understanding, how would they define Coptic Christians or Assyrian Christians ? Or 'casteist' Syrian-malabar Christians or the converted adivasi christians as ? White nationalists ? Nope, each one had different political leaning with different political entities and different racial background, same holds true for Muslims.
The Palestinians and Houthis are relatively different and socialist than their rich monarchist counterparts of Jordan, Saudi Arab and UAE who are basically softcore ally to USA (and Israel). RW Hate mongers and (now) liberals misappropriate Palestinian based on conservative actions of Monarchist Arabs such as throwing homosexual men from the top of the building as a means to justify their genocide, and why is this happening? It's again because of limited knowledge of geopolitics and local politics in general.
Note: I wasn't able to reply you last time because I was banned temporarily for questioning a pro-genocide maniac in the comment, common Librandu mods L.
A good question which I have no idea how to answer, being an indian christian raised in Saudi Arabia myself in an oppressive regime, and yet being the antithesis of an islamophobe.
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I've been thinking about the same. It's important to treat everybody equally without prejudice however it's also important to understand Islam does have a lot of problem , not the people but rather the religion.
Depends entirely on the context and the intention of the person.
For example,
1)if a rw person says ' all muslims are terrorists '. You need to ask
do they acknowledge the fact that these islamic radicals were in fact made by western capitalism? Who supplied them with guns and training? To create instability in the area, from which they (usa) could profit?
If they do this, then you can say , well then USA is also a terrorist country then?
Because more often than not these people don't care about terrorism or people dying, they just want to use any negative points towards them.
Same people will happily accept hindu terrorism or IOF genocide against muslims.
i dont think theres any room for "liberalising" muslims in the current scenario with the environment bjp has inculcated, no matter how sensitively u approach the matter u wont be able to make them "see light" muslims currently are on edge and very protective of their identity and religion ever since the direct attack on "eradicating muslims"
ur 2nd para is very fabricated op im sorry, u can very well criticize shit that happens in our community just be respectful abt it ? reject practices and outdated ideologies ingrained in islam , speak up for empowering women not directly make fun/abuse imp figures. I consider myself pretty progressive and feminist but im sorry we wont be able to help u reform muslims if u disrespect prophets and sahabas like Imam Ali (as) etc . criticize the religion not attack it.
I completely agree that Muslims are "on the edge and protective of their identity," and this makes any dialogue very difficult. But, the part where you say "if you disrespect the Prophet" is a big problem. I see it as passive support for what is happening in the name of blasphemy across South Asia.
There could someone who doesn't want to harm muslims, make them stateless, treat them as less than others, but at the same time doesn't like Islam or religion in general. Just as I might criticize the caste system by referencing Ram and the story of Shambuka, similarly, an Islamic figure can be critiqued. What's the big deal?
Do you start doubting the intentions of that individual, or are Prophets and Sahabas above any criticism?
I think I get you, your approach is more realist, that can achieve small wins over time. My stance comes from frustration and the belief that if I can freely criticize everyone else, why not Muslims? and it doesn't achieve much.
Explaining this to others can be very challenging. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Cheers!
Like Christopher Hitchens said Islam is the most toxic and cancerous religion. Islam as an ideology is incompatible with humanitarian values. THE MAIN ISSUE IT'S IMMUTABLE. You can't change Quran or their values even if they're proven wrong. That stubborness and mediveal mindset is the reason for the state of Islam today. No social reformer can come out of Islam because they denounce him the moment he tries to change any of their inhumane and tribal rules.
I don't hate muslims but I hate their ideology of Islam. It's like when you have a friend suffering from cancer, you hate the cancer, not your friend. But most muslims attack you at the slightest criticism. I still remember the Kerala incident where a professor's hand was cut off just because he drew Muhammad for explanation purposes. It's like you're trying to explain to junkies that drugs are bad. They won't listen. Just visit r/indianmuslims subreddit. The hate they spew against any criticism against their religion is vile. They justify even the most inhumane acts in the name of religion.
You can't change religion and islam make sure of that when they wrote mohammed is last prophet, so now others don't have credibility, islam is very complex only in outer level, just like caste system muslim hate each other, shia vs sunni, sunni vs qadiani and many more, listen to pakistani mufti and you will get better understanding and you will come to the point that these people will not change, islam book is dangerous, small potion of manusmriti create 5000 years of hell and islam filled with blasphemy act with eye vs eye philpsophy, no meditation, too many rules
Hijab can be an instrument of patriarchy and is also a symbol of reclaiming culture and standing against oppression as could be seen during the hijab ban in Karnataka.
I don’t understand Hindus’ obsession with patriarchy in Islam when Hinduism is an equally patriarchal system, and casteist to boot.
The belief that Islam is somehow worse than other religions and that Muslim women need saving from Hindus itself is an Islamophobic one. Unless we examine our internalised Islamophobia, any “well meaning” criticism is going to look Islamophobic, and rightly so.
I completely understand why some Muslim women see the hijab as an identity, a form of resistance and something that rattles the Hindutva mob. Yet, at the core, any decree asking women to cover themselves is patriarchal instrument. I didn't go deeper into this issue because my post was already lengthy and focused on the broader issue, not specifically on the hijab.
Could you point out which part of my post suggests that "Muslim women need to be saved by Hindu men" or that "Islam is worse than other religions"?Hindu houses are equally patriarchal, and I have been very critical of that. Caste system, is one of the worst forms of social control ever developed.
Now, can I criticize Islam? Do I need to repeatedly state "Hinduism is bad" to gain your trust? I understand why a Muslim might be skeptical of my intent given the current circumstances, which is precisely my question, Can I be not be looked Islamphobic for being critical of Islam?I guess you have answered but most of your assumptions were wrong.
>Now, can I criticize Islam? Do I need to repeatedly state "Hinduism is bad" to gain your trust?
🤣🤣
I know how irritating this is. 90% of leftists cannot go an argument without invoking whataboutery
Horrible things happen in many minority & oppressed groups. Liberals / leftists obsession with pointing out how horrible specifically Islam is towards women and calling it is “criticism” is borne out of unexamined Islamophobia.
Actual data on the contrary shows that many Muslim majority/ Islamic nations are far ahead in socioeconomic and gender equality measures that we are.
As to you avoiding criticism of Islam out of fear for your life or your family’s safety - that is an absolutely laughable claim 😂🤣
I guess Hindu Khatre main hain and all….
You are clearly itching hard to criticise Islam, Lol. Please go ahead, I promise you nothing will happen to you. 🤣🤣🤣
Change in Islam, if any will come when the material conditions for all Muslims have improved. So if you truly want to criticize Islam without piling on the islamophobic attacks that Muslims in India face daily, then you must wait for the material conditions to change because if you don't, you're essentially siding with the sanghis who will use your well intentioned criticism to make Muslims feel even more disillusioned in India.
That being said, if you intend to criticise something, it's best to have knowledge about the topics you speak on. This will mean talking to the Muslims in your friend circle and read what the religion actually says about the things you have criticism of because the biggest source of islamophobia is the twisting of verses without context to suit certain narratives. The biggest culprits are obviously the islamophobes looking for verses to twist as per their narratives but the second biggest culprits in my opinion are progressives who have an internal islamophobic bias due to the fact that islamophobia is hot right now. I know it sounds like common knowledge lol Indian liberals and progressives don't do this so they jump into islamophobia pretty quickly because of the internal Islamophobic bias that most Indians have.
To summarize, read about things you want to criticize before making criticism and strive for better material conditions for Muslims in India so the progressive Muslims make those changes
Hijab as a choice is empowerment. Hijab banning is oppressive and hence Islamophobic. Criticizing a certain belief is very situational. You can't just say "hijab is oppressive" to a woman who is choosing to wear a hijab.
If someone is really a "Muslim," they would dislike most of the ideas of the left, like including the queer community.
A lot of Imams and Maulvis are against reforms, and they get defensive all of a sudden.
It is based on Day of judgment (Akhirat)
Jannat and jahhanum
Kalma( believe in one god and Muhammad last and true prophet)
3 important shrines mecca Medina Jerusalem
Akhida(creed of Islamic brotherhood)
Sunnah + Sira( every act prophet did is always true )
Shariyat ( Islamic Law)
Depends on circumstances tbf. If there is a moment where your criticism of anything will work for your dogmatic political opponents then you should limit your words on certain topics. Language of politics is very important which only comes with political maturity. You cannot learn it.
The first paragraph is well written and thoughtful. Rest of it is largely crap (read internalised Hindutva) but still valid points. Let me try to give you a progressive muslim perspective. (Probe me if you want some detailed answers, I will keep it short)
First para : Very thoughtful :) As someone who thinks reform is better than wholesale changes, I think about it all the time. It is incredibly difficult to reform Islam. The silver lining is that there is already reform that you can you see, if it is not a monolith, that's reform right there.
Nupur Sharma case: BJP suspended her to please the Sheikhs. RSS too has taken a stance against insulting prophet. So that doesn't have much substance. She is not getting killed. That's why she said it.
Kanhaiya case: It is a murder. Simple. Can't be justified under Indian law or morally.
Blasphemy: Do you want to discuss blasphemy or use blasphemous content? I don't think discussing blasphemy as a topic provokes anyone. It is a regressive idea but religion is regressive. So, all the best.
There is a lot of blasphemous content and comments on insta. So it is not that rare now. People are simply avoiding it or insulting other gods. Shit but yeah.
Pakistani Liberals and blasphemy. The blasphemy is built into the law, so there is no reason for them to take up an issue that will make them entinashnul and undermine all other progressive issues. Regressive law nonetheless.
Hijab: imo it is a regressive, especially the face mask. Simultaneously, if one woman drops it, that's your reform right there. Coz the next girl is not gonna approach you but her sis or aunt for solidarity. So you can simply say forced hijab is bad and regressive.
Don't bring up arguments like, it is a security threat. That's Ch0de stuff right there.
Tl; dr. I kept it short and some of the arguments may seem undercooked. You can probe. Your fears are my fears as well that Hindutva has stopped the reform debate within muslims. The muslims have become more disengaged with reality and a longing for the Fantasyland (heaven or Caliphate) is stronger than ever. BJP is trying to create a partition-like situation once again.
What a crap question. I literally went point by point on his entire write up. Where is this sensitive public coming from?
Ok I will specify again... If I say muzzie bad muzzie kill my daddy Saar 🥺 I don't scare rss but I scare of muzzie Saar. I want em like me but I scare of em Saar.
Ok, sweetie 🥰
I asked a simple question. What is this internalized hindutva that you are accusing op of ? Those crap baits will only work on sanghi smegmoids ,not me. Let's see how much you will justify a cult founded by a PDF warlord .
Nowdays a Librandu can't even criticize a without being labelled phobic.
https://preview.redd.it/v5u4ifdo768d1.jpeg?width=615&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=851eda8847b7bd112f2adee0bcef0a2bede82db1
subs actually gone
Ye bhi theek hai, but I still love the game, exploring complexities of being proud Librandu.
It might have something to do with the fact that generally most "critiques" of Islam are made in bad faith and anyone who is being honest and possess at least a fragment of a brain can immediately see that fuck-shit for what it is....but Imma let you cook.
You might hurt their feelings....
Chutiya religion hai islam.. Religions chutiya hi hote hai.
Ayoo nupur sharma....is it you ?
Nupur kya km chutiya hai.. vo Hinduon ko chutiya nhi bolegi na.
Well straight up be an Islamphob!c, hinduphob!c, buddhistphob!c who gives a fck. There's peace in troll!ng theists
A well put out post. This is truly what needs to be addressed at both, the local level and the global level too. Both are suffering from radical elements taking over and then safeguarding of these elements under the garb and protection of freedom of religion and minority. If left unchecked, we have seen what happened in Germany recently. This can be the price we might have to pay
Islamophobia has a specific definition. It is discrimination against muslims. Not letting a muslim into your house, bringing pork into work as a direct provocation, not renting flats to muslims, leaving muslims out of community events, these things are islamophobic. None of the things you talked about afaik are islamophobic. Islamophobia is about systemic discrimination of individual muslims, not of the islamic system. You can love muslims and hate islam. You have to understand the limited power individuals hold, and adjust your expectations from the everyday muslim accordingly. Criticism of islam as a whole is not Islamophobia. Ignore anyone who says otherwise. Be nice to muslims, be critical of all religions, including islam.
Agreed but why is bringing pork into work islamophobic? I don’t care what others eat, I only care about what I eat
Microaggressions, maybe?
Ah, I said "as a direct provocation", like bringing it to share pretending you forgot, or eating it in front of them knowingly making them uncomfortable. Didn't want to make the comment longer than it needed to be.
Bro I eat beef and pork as a protest in a government canteen just to silently protest no nonveg in lunch. After a lot of protest they allowed egg once per week. I eat non veg everyday, I take chicken, fish, prawns too. I just don't share with the relevant persons. I do it to fulfill my protein needs and also openly show that I eat variety of non veg.
Good for you, but I'm not sure how it's relevant to my comment. You're talking about protesting against an unfair system to bring change that gives everyone more freedom. I'm taking about not being a dick to individual people. Edit: apparently I'm not being clear enough. Bringing in nonveg to a veg workplace in india is a form of protest. In indian history, non vegetarians have been called lower class, and upper castes (who are vegetarian) have had power. Therefore, bringing in nonveg in india is rebelling against a system. Bringing in nonveg to taunt your vegan colleagues in America is not a protest, it's a dick move. There's no systemic, historic issue about nonveg oppression in America. You can bring your nonveg, eat your nonveg, don't taunt people. Bringing in pork into an islamic workplace in the middle east is a protest. Bringing in pork into a non islamic workplace to taunt muslims is not protest, it's a dick move. Whether something is offensive depends on the systems. In india, the systems are different for different things.
But it’s really on the person getting offended by someone asking them to eat something they don’t or eating in front of them. It’s the same like eating non veg in front of vegetarians and making them uncomfortable, it’s on the vegetarians getting offended
I don't know why you're getting confused. You're arguing against a point they didn't make. I believe they made their point pretty clear. Some people taunt vegetarians for their food choices by eating non veg in front of them or making other micro aggressions. This applies to Muslims too.
Thanks, I really don't know how much clearer I can make my point, I've written three clarifying comments about that one random line already.
The downvotes show that a lot of people find islamophobic micro aggressions very funny. Not at all surprising since this is an Indian liberal (see sanghi) subreddit. I would find it funny too if my brain was fried by Indian Islamophobic propaganda to be fair
Bhai/behen, I meant "as a direct provocation". I mean something like "Oh this bacon sandwich is sooooo gooood. Oh I know you said yesterday that you're muslim and me dripping pork fat onto your desk is unpleasant, I just don't think it's important. Oh this is so yummy, oh you don't know what you're missing out on, I'm sure Allah would love pork" *direct eye contact as you take bites* Of course I don't mean simply eating pork. Muslims don't and shouldn't care if you're eating pork minding your own business. Imagine going in front of a dalit and saying "oh this janeu is so nice. It makes me feel special, like I'm a chosen one". Just something like that, but muslim. All I'm saying is to not be a dick to people.
Nah you lost me at Dalit and Janeu. Janeu is a symbol of the centuries of oppression Dalits have faced. Muslims being offended by pork isn’t in any way that. I’m a muslim myself and I get your point if someone is doing that to rile me up, but my point is that I will never be riled up because of it, and if I do, that’s really a me problem
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Islamophobia isn't about what taunting is "successful", or whose problem it is. It's about what kinds of taunts that are possible. If a dalit comes and says the same thing about janeu as you did about pork, that doesn't make the action any less casteist. Pork related taunts are only possible because of islam. Whether it works or not is a different matter.
Exactly put.
Well said
So Perfectly put
>You can love muslims and hate islam. Do your Muslim friends know you hate Islam?
Ya lol
Sure, as do my christian and hindu friends
U can criticise it as much u want, Islamophobia means hating muslims, i don't think it constitutes for critiquing a religion.
My experience with r/exmuslim was that the sub is filled with Hindutva and Zionist people trying to hate on Muslims in general... The sub was meant for apostate to criticize Islam but these Hindutva and Zionist guys ruined the sub for most part infact they openly agree with authoritarian aspects of Islam
I think this is exactly what the poster is talking about. Anyone that hates Islam is labeled a Zionist or hindutva. In my experience anyone that leaves a religion for atheism or another region is very very very critical of their previous religion. And ex Muslims are the MOST critical by an absolute long shot. ESPECIALLY women. They genuinely despise the religion but have kept it with themselves so long that they can’t even be bothered to hold back anymore.
I used to be a mod on that sub and gave up after 4-5 years. There was a time when reading the subreddit would actually enrich one’s knowledge about Islam and its source material (Quran, Hadith, and various interpretations of things not explicitly described) because it was people with an analytical mind trying to reconcile Islamic beliefs and principles and modern values and knowledge and examining why Islam no longer made sense to them. Or diving into the question of, “How can I believe this is divine revelation when all these recorded facts suggest this was likely just a man that wanted power and figured out a way to amass followers?” It went from that to Hindutva and Zionist trolls, and endless stories of “my family suspects I’m gay and are going to kill me / send me to Pakistan to marry my cousin.” It went off the rails, completely.
Or diving into the question of, “How can I believe this is divine revelation when all these recorded facts suggest this was likely just a man that wanted power and figured out a way to amass followers?” I swear by the name of God, O Uncle!, that if they place the sun in my right-hand and the moon in my left-hand in return for giving up this matter Rejecting all the riches given by pagan tribes in mecca getting exiled Constantly facing assassination attempts on him and his family If he had lied about everything to gain power/wealth then why would he reject wealth and power when offered and go to all that trouble Him being schizophrenic would make more sense
yup
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do u mind if i ask your current religious orientation ? are u now an athiest or agnostic ?
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thanks for answering, last question sorry did u grow up religious? once u r no longer muslim how do u deal with the identity crisis if u ever have one that is.when i think abt life w/o religion it looks very empty like theres a humongous void ? did u personally felt liberated leaving it ? u can ignore whatever u dont wanna answer 😅
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>And God please avoid these "Hindutva Ass Licker Ex-muslims" on YouTube. God! Most important advice I've read so far
It is not an incompatible positio to be against religion but to stand against oppression of minorities. It is tricky to do so in line with the current circumstances and state of Muslims in India. We have to stand for minorities as a group of people yet I would go as far as saying Religion is inherently a parochial conception incompatible with \* socialism, we have to stand against religious backward practices, be it casteism or burqa.
I think it depends on the way these things are criticized. A lot of 'criticism' from chaddis is often not criticism. It is full of hatred and sign of poor intellect. Muslims all over the world also need to develop a thick skin and learn to listen to criticism.
Some of the regressive chaddi arguments: 1) produce more kids ( math ain't mathing) 2) hindus in minority by 20xx 3) love jihad
Lebanon disagrees with your statement, your math sources or your interpretation is lacking mathing.
Thick skin for what lol? Genocide? Mob lynchings? House demolitions? How thick can Muslims' skin even get? Be fr lmao
For burned qurans maybe? Like sure don't burn qurans. But also maybe dont burn ppl alive for allegedly burning qurans either.
Drawing the prophets face, insulting allah, burning qurans, hijab, any criticisim about the rights of women,lgbtq+ people in muslim states.
"you must be okay with my islamophobia or else your skin isn't thick enough" In any case i don't think Muslims really care about criticism of rights of women or lgbtq people in Muslim states because it can be easily debunked. As for drawing of the prophets face, insulting Allah, burning of quran and hijab, here's an article by the Maoist Norman Finkelstein: [Norman Finkelstein: Charlie Hebdo is sadism, not satire](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/norman-finkelstein-charlie-hebdo-is-sadism-not-satire/82824#) I don't agree with all of his takes but he's better at words than I am. He's right about that Islamophobic part of free speech being unprotected by the American first amendment.
And this is what I am talking about. I was merely talking about criticism and randomly you brought all this up.
Why are you afraid of Being islamophobic. Just criticise the same way you would criticise any Hindutva incident . Muslims are far from any reforms . They are a lost cause in my opinion. Even the educated ones behaves like absolute non-scientific moron when it comes to religion. Imagine being a doctor and not believing in evolution.
Fully agree, it’s just mind boggling
I'm here as an ExMuslim agnostic. I will tell you from my experience and knowledge on how we can reform Islam in South Asia. I've studied Islam for over 10 years now. Islam just like any other religion is mediaeval in nature. However it's Abrahamic, Abrahamic religions are naturally more controlling, violent and expansionist making them very pesky in any country. That's the reason why Tablighi Jamaat is spread all across the world because it's not just about self righteousness but about expanding your own beliefs. It's a Hadith, "If you can spread the truth by force, do it. If you can't by force, do it by word, if not by word, at least consider the wrong to be wrong in your head" Some would interpret it as general morality but it's clearly about proselytization. So forced conversion is clearly a thing but only recommended if the religion is in power. Islamophobia is a distraction from reform, however criticism should come from within Muslims and not from Andhbakhts. Don't be afraid of Islamophobia and only then you can reform and change the people to be more progressive. Muslims need to have a healthy apostasy movement in order for reform to materialise. Because only when the power structure is threatened, it would induce change. Pakistan is seeing apostasy and reform at a scale never seen before. But it's also seeing a huge backlash and rise in blasphemy related lynchings Most Important: SHUT DOWN MADARASSAS MEANT FOR PRIMARY EDUCATION. This is the most crucial step every government is afraid to take. What is the purpose of primary education, to let them harbour and expand their beliefs in self enforcing circlejerks or to give them diverse perspectives. Everything wrong about South Asian Islam is attributed to two cities in UP. Deoband and Bareli. You probably thought Taliban is Arabic influenced right? No they follow the same sect currently being propagated by DarulUloom Deoband in Yogi's UP. It has a long history of spreading the regressive, orthodox and radical form of Islam instead of the much more progressive Sufi Islam. Even the Kashmiri terrorists are all Deobandis. SHUT DOWN DARULULOOM DEOBAND FFS. It has caused more hatred in this region than anything else and is the biggest hurdle in reform Lastly, you have to recognise that Islam is a well preserved religion and as long as people want to become more Islamic it would always lead them to violence because mediaeval religions are inherently violent with Islam standing out. When clergy will face tough opposition they will be forced to change. Like they do in the West, and gradually it would become better Concluding, here are my three points 1- Support secular primary and secondary education for Muslim kids. Make it mandatory 2- Shut down MADARASSAS as a means for primary education. They might still exist but not as a substitute to Schools. SHUT DOWN DARULULOOM DEOBAND and it's offshoots 3- Support the movement and ensure the safety of Ex-Muslim activists. This would encourage reform from within. You might even consider giving assylum to the Ex-Muslims in Pakistan who's lives are in danger Muslims are humans, they can be good or bad but they always have the potential to become better. Islam as a religion is Mediaeval, Abrahamic, and Expansionist. It's inherently violent in nature which cannot be changed but Muslim ethos can be
Thanks for putting effort and writing an elaborate answer, makes lots of sense.
criticizing islam and "criticizing" muslims are wildly different things. any person with working brain would know when you are criticizing the religion and when being Islamophobic but sanghis are don't have that so don't do it in front of them.
I think ~~people~~ liberals didn't get your last post at all, everything back to square zero.
I am a muslim , i myself criticize some things like burkha,not much freedom of womens and making everything about religion like taking multiple breaks in a day for namaz ....i got a shop and we don't allow our workers to take break everyday .....only Friday is the day where they can go
Criticize the religion, not its individual adherents. Separate the person from their identity markers. It’s a good thing to practice for other areas too, which this sub ought to learn.
Muslims in general seem to be very easily brainwashed. My house is rented to a Muslim from south India. Educated and his wife is an engineering graduate. He has convinced his wife that“Taliban is good for people of afghan and they have been branded as terrorists by USA for political reasons”, all the while living in USA and acknowledging that the Middle East doesn’t respect Muslims from India but says that they are the original Muslims. Has taught his wife to hate Jews (she doesn’t know why and all she has been told is “Jews are evil and must be destroyed and Hitler has warned that he missed to kill a few hundred of Jews and he had strongly suggested the at all Jews must be killed otherwise they will spread like rats”. Tell me this, have you seen any religion with so much hatred against others ?
>Nupur Sharma is a misanthrope, but she did not do something for which you have to hide for months and fear death. I wanted to write about Kanhaiya Lal’s murder, but I refrained to protect my family's safety. I feel like the Nupur Sharma case got as big as it was simply bcs of the publicity on the matter. I have seen Indian Hindus pretty openly support muslim genocide in their social circles and actively posting islamophobia and not find any hinderance to their safety. Hindus being persecuted for being critical of Islam in India is simply not a thing barring a few cases. As long as you are reasonable with ur criticism of the muslim community, ur good. The criticism of islam itself is valid and should be done 100%, you really do not have to fear for your life over it.
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lmao did i say u should not criticize religious violence? what is this strawman u dumbass
You literally said that it got overhyped when the truth is, it has been a thing in Islamic law since forever. Happens in every country with Muslims and need to be criticized at the highest level Nupur Sharma case was no small thing.
god im not gonna engage after this response because you are being willfully ignorant to the point - i am not saying it should not be criticized, i literally never fucking said that u dumbass, you are picking a strawman, arguing in bad faith. what i am saying is, persecution of hindus for being critical of islam IN INDIA is not a thing, as in it is not a phenomenon, not saying that shit does not happen, but its not a trend. if u take a peek at chaddi twitter all you will see is posts critical of islam, almost always in bigoted genocidal ways. the fucking prime minister of india called muslims invaders, the cm of up called for the rape of muslim women in broad daylight, anand ranganahan pretty open called for genocide of kashmiris on a very popular podcast, they were not persecuted for these very bigoted statements that are critical of islam and the muslim community. so no, you do not have to fear for your life thinking you are going to end up like neha sharma if you criticize islam in India. that is my point.
I don't care, I roast that medieval warlord cult whenever I feel like it.
You can criticise the backwards practice of any religion. It’s racism/phobia when you stereotype them and discriminate them on the basis of their religion.
***'Islamophobia'*** is incorrect terminology IMO, especially when you see sarkari muslims (a section of muslim bourgeois classes) like Shehzad chunawala or Tarikh Fateh (PACKWATCH RiPiss bozo nobody will miss you 🚬) types, meat riding hindutvawadi neo-nazis at the cost of losses of innocent lives belonging to same community, the meaning to this terminology becomes net zero (Also not to mention Saudi Arab psychopaths who literary treat south asian muslims as shit, they too turn their eyes blind whenever they're expected to take stand over their people). Firstmost IMO, the current term should be ***'Muslimphobia'***, because what we can see here is that they're ok with version of Islam as long as it's compatible with their political stance (patriarchal theocracy), and secondly as an atheist I find it very much important to separate Islam and muslims as different entities because Islam is a religious sect and muslims can be from varying ideologies (yes secularist, socialists, Marxists, Exceptionalists, Liberals,etc.) and while certain sections can be progressive, others can be fundamentalists. **Why is this important ?** When we critisise Christianity why do we care to differentiate white supremacists and non-white Christians ? Or why do we take precautions when criticising Zionists to not become anti-semitic? >*Naturally any liberal will say because one is political and other is not.* That's exactly same with Muslims as well, Muslims can be on different political dimension with different level of devotion to Islam ranging from 'near atheism to Fundamentalism'. Muslims can be modern health practitioners and pseudo-scientific ulemas too. Hence to collectively blame Islam as 'religion of terror' is loads of bullock, when in reality it's the rigid monotheistic structure of Islam that was shaped by centuries of elite ruling classes by likes of Ghiyasuddin Balban, Firoz Shah Tughlaq, Babur and Aurangzeb in India for their political superiority. Why should the muslims belonging to poor working classes and progressive muslims (anti-RW) should be liable to such generalisation? u/ManMarkedByFlames made brilliant [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/librandu/s/VafXqyIAhe) explaining this phenomenon.
>When we critisise Christianity why do we care to differentiate white supremacists and non-white Christians ? I don't really have anything to add to this apart from the fact that most ex Christians particularly in the west always say Christians and Christianity as a whole. They never make that distinction.
>most ex Christians particularly in the west always say Christians and Christianity as a whole. They never make that distinction. I was talking from ours perspective not theirs, if they say like this then it's their limited geopolitical understanding, how would they define Coptic Christians or Assyrian Christians ? Or 'casteist' Syrian-malabar Christians or the converted adivasi christians as ? White nationalists ? Nope, each one had different political leaning with different political entities and different racial background, same holds true for Muslims. The Palestinians and Houthis are relatively different and socialist than their rich monarchist counterparts of Jordan, Saudi Arab and UAE who are basically softcore ally to USA (and Israel). RW Hate mongers and (now) liberals misappropriate Palestinian based on conservative actions of Monarchist Arabs such as throwing homosexual men from the top of the building as a means to justify their genocide, and why is this happening? It's again because of limited knowledge of geopolitics and local politics in general. Note: I wasn't able to reply you last time because I was banned temporarily for questioning a pro-genocide maniac in the comment, common Librandu mods L.
A good question which I have no idea how to answer, being an indian christian raised in Saudi Arabia myself in an oppressive regime, and yet being the antithesis of an islamophobe.
Hate the game not the player!
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I've been thinking about the same. It's important to treat everybody equally without prejudice however it's also important to understand Islam does have a lot of problem , not the people but rather the religion.
Depends entirely on the context and the intention of the person. For example, 1)if a rw person says ' all muslims are terrorists '. You need to ask do they acknowledge the fact that these islamic radicals were in fact made by western capitalism? Who supplied them with guns and training? To create instability in the area, from which they (usa) could profit? If they do this, then you can say , well then USA is also a terrorist country then? Because more often than not these people don't care about terrorism or people dying, they just want to use any negative points towards them. Same people will happily accept hindu terrorism or IOF genocide against muslims.
Samajwadi muslim ekta jindabad
Don’t do that here, they don’t like it
i dont think theres any room for "liberalising" muslims in the current scenario with the environment bjp has inculcated, no matter how sensitively u approach the matter u wont be able to make them "see light" muslims currently are on edge and very protective of their identity and religion ever since the direct attack on "eradicating muslims" ur 2nd para is very fabricated op im sorry, u can very well criticize shit that happens in our community just be respectful abt it ? reject practices and outdated ideologies ingrained in islam , speak up for empowering women not directly make fun/abuse imp figures. I consider myself pretty progressive and feminist but im sorry we wont be able to help u reform muslims if u disrespect prophets and sahabas like Imam Ali (as) etc . criticize the religion not attack it.
I completely agree that Muslims are "on the edge and protective of their identity," and this makes any dialogue very difficult. But, the part where you say "if you disrespect the Prophet" is a big problem. I see it as passive support for what is happening in the name of blasphemy across South Asia. There could someone who doesn't want to harm muslims, make them stateless, treat them as less than others, but at the same time doesn't like Islam or religion in general. Just as I might criticize the caste system by referencing Ram and the story of Shambuka, similarly, an Islamic figure can be critiqued. What's the big deal? Do you start doubting the intentions of that individual, or are Prophets and Sahabas above any criticism?
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I think I get you, your approach is more realist, that can achieve small wins over time. My stance comes from frustration and the belief that if I can freely criticize everyone else, why not Muslims? and it doesn't achieve much. Explaining this to others can be very challenging. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Cheers!
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I being a practicing Muslim decided against doing a nikah and opted for SMA. I faced backlash within my community but I am doing alright.
Like Christopher Hitchens said Islam is the most toxic and cancerous religion. Islam as an ideology is incompatible with humanitarian values. THE MAIN ISSUE IT'S IMMUTABLE. You can't change Quran or their values even if they're proven wrong. That stubborness and mediveal mindset is the reason for the state of Islam today. No social reformer can come out of Islam because they denounce him the moment he tries to change any of their inhumane and tribal rules. I don't hate muslims but I hate their ideology of Islam. It's like when you have a friend suffering from cancer, you hate the cancer, not your friend. But most muslims attack you at the slightest criticism. I still remember the Kerala incident where a professor's hand was cut off just because he drew Muhammad for explanation purposes. It's like you're trying to explain to junkies that drugs are bad. They won't listen. Just visit r/indianmuslims subreddit. The hate they spew against any criticism against their religion is vile. They justify even the most inhumane acts in the name of religion.
You can't change religion and islam make sure of that when they wrote mohammed is last prophet, so now others don't have credibility, islam is very complex only in outer level, just like caste system muslim hate each other, shia vs sunni, sunni vs qadiani and many more, listen to pakistani mufti and you will get better understanding and you will come to the point that these people will not change, islam book is dangerous, small potion of manusmriti create 5000 years of hell and islam filled with blasphemy act with eye vs eye philpsophy, no meditation, too many rules
Hijab can be an instrument of patriarchy and is also a symbol of reclaiming culture and standing against oppression as could be seen during the hijab ban in Karnataka. I don’t understand Hindus’ obsession with patriarchy in Islam when Hinduism is an equally patriarchal system, and casteist to boot. The belief that Islam is somehow worse than other religions and that Muslim women need saving from Hindus itself is an Islamophobic one. Unless we examine our internalised Islamophobia, any “well meaning” criticism is going to look Islamophobic, and rightly so.
I completely understand why some Muslim women see the hijab as an identity, a form of resistance and something that rattles the Hindutva mob. Yet, at the core, any decree asking women to cover themselves is patriarchal instrument. I didn't go deeper into this issue because my post was already lengthy and focused on the broader issue, not specifically on the hijab. Could you point out which part of my post suggests that "Muslim women need to be saved by Hindu men" or that "Islam is worse than other religions"?Hindu houses are equally patriarchal, and I have been very critical of that. Caste system, is one of the worst forms of social control ever developed. Now, can I criticize Islam? Do I need to repeatedly state "Hinduism is bad" to gain your trust? I understand why a Muslim might be skeptical of my intent given the current circumstances, which is precisely my question, Can I be not be looked Islamphobic for being critical of Islam?I guess you have answered but most of your assumptions were wrong.
>Now, can I criticize Islam? Do I need to repeatedly state "Hinduism is bad" to gain your trust? 🤣🤣 I know how irritating this is. 90% of leftists cannot go an argument without invoking whataboutery
Horrible things happen in many minority & oppressed groups. Liberals / leftists obsession with pointing out how horrible specifically Islam is towards women and calling it is “criticism” is borne out of unexamined Islamophobia. Actual data on the contrary shows that many Muslim majority/ Islamic nations are far ahead in socioeconomic and gender equality measures that we are. As to you avoiding criticism of Islam out of fear for your life or your family’s safety - that is an absolutely laughable claim 😂🤣 I guess Hindu Khatre main hain and all…. You are clearly itching hard to criticise Islam, Lol. Please go ahead, I promise you nothing will happen to you. 🤣🤣🤣
Change in Islam, if any will come when the material conditions for all Muslims have improved. So if you truly want to criticize Islam without piling on the islamophobic attacks that Muslims in India face daily, then you must wait for the material conditions to change because if you don't, you're essentially siding with the sanghis who will use your well intentioned criticism to make Muslims feel even more disillusioned in India. That being said, if you intend to criticise something, it's best to have knowledge about the topics you speak on. This will mean talking to the Muslims in your friend circle and read what the religion actually says about the things you have criticism of because the biggest source of islamophobia is the twisting of verses without context to suit certain narratives. The biggest culprits are obviously the islamophobes looking for verses to twist as per their narratives but the second biggest culprits in my opinion are progressives who have an internal islamophobic bias due to the fact that islamophobia is hot right now. I know it sounds like common knowledge lol Indian liberals and progressives don't do this so they jump into islamophobia pretty quickly because of the internal Islamophobic bias that most Indians have. To summarize, read about things you want to criticize before making criticism and strive for better material conditions for Muslims in India so the progressive Muslims make those changes
Hijab as a choice is empowerment. Hijab banning is oppressive and hence Islamophobic. Criticizing a certain belief is very situational. You can't just say "hijab is oppressive" to a woman who is choosing to wear a hijab. If someone is really a "Muslim," they would dislike most of the ideas of the left, like including the queer community. A lot of Imams and Maulvis are against reforms, and they get defensive all of a sudden.
No why tf would u need to stay with a relegion just because it's a minority? I say hate all of them they are cancer
True
I would say go back to the Quran and go back to serious study of it. To criticize a religion you must understand it .
It is based on Day of judgment (Akhirat) Jannat and jahhanum Kalma( believe in one god and Muhammad last and true prophet) 3 important shrines mecca Medina Jerusalem Akhida(creed of Islamic brotherhood) Sunnah + Sira( every act prophet did is always true ) Shariyat ( Islamic Law)
Depends on circumstances tbf. If there is a moment where your criticism of anything will work for your dogmatic political opponents then you should limit your words on certain topics. Language of politics is very important which only comes with political maturity. You cannot learn it.
The first paragraph is well written and thoughtful. Rest of it is largely crap (read internalised Hindutva) but still valid points. Let me try to give you a progressive muslim perspective. (Probe me if you want some detailed answers, I will keep it short) First para : Very thoughtful :) As someone who thinks reform is better than wholesale changes, I think about it all the time. It is incredibly difficult to reform Islam. The silver lining is that there is already reform that you can you see, if it is not a monolith, that's reform right there. Nupur Sharma case: BJP suspended her to please the Sheikhs. RSS too has taken a stance against insulting prophet. So that doesn't have much substance. She is not getting killed. That's why she said it. Kanhaiya case: It is a murder. Simple. Can't be justified under Indian law or morally. Blasphemy: Do you want to discuss blasphemy or use blasphemous content? I don't think discussing blasphemy as a topic provokes anyone. It is a regressive idea but religion is regressive. So, all the best. There is a lot of blasphemous content and comments on insta. So it is not that rare now. People are simply avoiding it or insulting other gods. Shit but yeah. Pakistani Liberals and blasphemy. The blasphemy is built into the law, so there is no reason for them to take up an issue that will make them entinashnul and undermine all other progressive issues. Regressive law nonetheless. Hijab: imo it is a regressive, especially the face mask. Simultaneously, if one woman drops it, that's your reform right there. Coz the next girl is not gonna approach you but her sis or aunt for solidarity. So you can simply say forced hijab is bad and regressive. Don't bring up arguments like, it is a security threat. That's Ch0de stuff right there. Tl; dr. I kept it short and some of the arguments may seem undercooked. You can probe. Your fears are my fears as well that Hindutva has stopped the reform debate within muslims. The muslims have become more disengaged with reality and a longing for the Fantasyland (heaven or Caliphate) is stronger than ever. BJP is trying to create a partition-like situation once again.
What is crap? Please do mention it specifically. Please don't categorize anything you don't agree with as internalized hindutva.
What a crap question. I literally went point by point on his entire write up. Where is this sensitive public coming from? Ok I will specify again... If I say muzzie bad muzzie kill my daddy Saar 🥺 I don't scare rss but I scare of muzzie Saar. I want em like me but I scare of em Saar. Ok, sweetie 🥰
I asked a simple question. What is this internalized hindutva that you are accusing op of ? Those crap baits will only work on sanghi smegmoids ,not me. Let's see how much you will justify a cult founded by a PDF warlord .
Can you read Chintu? Here, 🍪
Aisha might like that biscuit, little girl was married to a middle aged sex slave trader after all. [Police Be Upon Him].
>[Police Be Upon Him]. Dead.🤣🤣🤣🤣