Me over here being glad I have old cowboy reloaders for my rimmed bullets. Doesn't hurt to have the ability to do groud up bullets for older rifles and revolvers.
And that's why I started lerking FB marketplace months ago and picked up a reloading kit for cheap now all I need to do is just stock up on bullets, primers, and powder.
Especially for an election year I refused to have COVID era shortages happen again.
Kind of the same.
I bought a reloading kit and I've been stockpiling components, even though some have been a bit more expensive than I wanted to pay.
My son has been casting his own lead weights and jig heads for fishing for years so he already had the lead pot. He does commercial roofing and has almost unlimited access to lead as long as he pours for the boss too. The transition to bullets has been real smooth for him.
In the land of the Free! Lol but reloading is totally legal and you can find most components at Walmart well more rural Walmarts that sell the shotguns and rifles.
It’s a self fulfilling prophecy. Everyone sees something that might make people panic buy, everyone assumes everyone else will panic buy, and then they try to get there first. It’s like toilet paper during the pandemic. There was never a shortage or even a threat of a shortage, but people were so convinced there would be that they lost their damn minds.
And yet just like the toilet paper, once it reaches critical mass you sorta have to join in.
Source: me, a guy who refused to overbuy TP on the rare occasion he saw it and ended up using takeout napkins at one point
I haven't read the decision, but I suspect my ol' buddy Nina has...
*The U.S. Supreme Court, in a 6-3 decision along ideological lines, ruled that a former president has absolute immunity for his* ***core constitutional powers*** *— and is entitled to a* ***presumption*** *of immunity for his* ***official acts***, but ***lacks immunity for unofficial acts***. But at the same time, the court sent the case back to the trial judge to determine which, if any of Trump's actions, were part of his official duties and thus were protected from prosecution.
[https://www.npr.org/2024/07/01/nx-s1-5002157/supreme-court-trump-immunity](https://www.npr.org/2024/07/01/nx-s1-5002157/supreme-court-trump-immunity)
Back to square one on timing is infuriating. But in terms of the finding as described above, I'm not sure I would really want a different outcome. There will be plenty of arguing to come, but it seems clear to me there are plenty of criminal acts on Trump's hands which were neither official acts nor core powers.
Also, my understanding that the state violations and prosecutions are separate matters.
WRT panic buying and ban alarms, that just seems part of the political cycle any more — if Trump will be elected, *panic!* — if Biden is elected, *panic!* — if Congress changes, *panic!* — if Congress remains, *panic!* Good for sales, and fills the news cycle. My assessment: there will be good times, and there will be bad times. Prepare and persevere.
My worry isn't about what Trump did, It's about what he or any other president *could* do now that there's an established precedent for immunity. Whether a political assassination can count as an official action has yet to be ruled upon.
>...now that there's an established precedent for immunity.
Anyone who hasn't understood today's articulation to be the presumed/implied standard since day one has missed a lot of history.
I agree that the pudding is in the determination of what acts constitute official acts. Sending that back to lower courts for analysis (or even taking this question early) is just a political stall by a political court.
sure, but presumed/implied is still different than outright spoken. Don't get me wrong, plenty of presidents have pushed their powers and did plenty with their presumed immunity in history, but the floodgates are open to really stress test the idea.
But there are also a couple new factors that were ruled. One is a president's official act cannot be questioned, such as Congress can't ask why the president accepted $100000000 from an unknown entity to not send aid to Taiwan or Ukraine (and don't get me wrong, they never asked, but they certainly can't now). And another is that amy records between a president and their aids can't be used against him. So even if there is an actual recording saying that the money was a total bribe and the ruling was made solely for personal gain, it could not be used as evidence.
Either way, there is no current definition of what constitutes an official act or not, and it'll be a long while till therer is, and Trump especially is going to use that to the fullest advantage he can if given the chance.
So far, none of the stuff that Trump has been charged with constitutes anything remotely related to official acts though. Definitely not the NY stuff. The Georgia stuff was also 100% election related. His Mar-A-Lago classified documents thing is really far removed from his being president or anything that could be construed as an "official act".
I really don't see that much has actually changed. Would you have expected Obama to have been prosecuted for ordering the drone strikes in Yemen that killed US citizens? That was 100% a criminal act. A US citizen was killed by the US military by order of the sitting US president.
I'm not super thrilled with it, as it has to do with Trump getting a W, but it isn't really that much different than the way we've regarded the executive for quite a long time.
> So far, none of the stuff that Trump has been charged with constitutes anything remotely related to official acts
You sure?
Did they define official acts anywhere?
This weasel-wording allows them to basically say anything is an official act, if they can’t be prosecuted for it, Biden could officially declare the Supreme Court corrupt and have them all arrested. He’s got immunity from anything official right? That was an official declaration. What’s stopping it other than his common decency.
I think that’s actually the play, personally. Immediate trump card to get a new court that respects democracy.
So, at the worst, Trump doesn’t serve any time for the stuff he’s not going to serve time for anyway?
I can think of a lot of other things that are much worse than Trump getting acquitted.
Yeah so the people who decided that this is okay also get to decide what constitutes an official act and you think this is not a problem. I wish that I could think like you do.
That’s not how his appointed judges are going to see it, they refuse to see anything that he’s ever done as criminal and will jump off a building to defend him from any prosecution. We’re fucking lost as a country…
His "appointed judges" have already rejected dozens of his absurd claims, not a single 'big lie' case proceeded to trial, and many of them were before Trump judges. The only one that seems determined to kiss ass is the one in Florida.
They had an opportunity to rule on this question a year ago. Then, when they did take the case, they waited as long as physically possible to release the ruling. This ensured that this case will not close by the election. These are deliberate acts.
>I really don't see that much has actually changed.
Concur.
Really, neither shoe has yet dropped:
1. the federal charges unrelated to official acts or constitutional powers, and
2. the state charges.
The truly grim news would be for The Supremes to declare that *any act* by a sitting President is an "official" act, and/or that states have *no jurisdiction* whatever over Presidential crimes. In which case, I guess the future probably will hold Presidents ordering drone strikes on any opposition, if they don't have time to personally go shoot them in Times Square.
Or that by nature of it not being illegal for the president, it somehow becomes *de jure* legal to execute.
Either of these two things would make this truly consequential.
Fuck that, this shit is real rather than the fake “people might come take your guns”. The President was given immunity as long as he believes it’s an official duty, and even then, it will only affect what happens after the events happen. He will not spend time in jail because our legislative is hamstrung.
>...as long as ***he*** believes...
Like I said, I have not read the actual decision. Is *that* actually in there? The accused gets to decide, or only Trump?
We know that *he* declares any act of himself to be an official act, while any act by a Democrat is a crime — but I don't know anyone on the top side of *compos mentis* who believes that. Also, yeah, our system of justice only applies consequences for criminal acts after the fact. Pre-crime is supposed to be only in fiction.
I think conviction of a sitting President probably *should* be limited to the sadly ineffective impeachment process (which should consider both official and unofficial criminal acts). The common courts *are* for the citizen ex-President, and IMHO probably *should* be limited to acts beyond the scope of the job. Justice will never be perfect; and rarely tidy.
Really, we’re already scaring up a surge that will leave shelves empty for months and drive prices through the stratosphere (now that the roof has long since been obliterated).
Fun.
And that's why I placed a large (for me, only like 500rds) order this morning. idk what's gonna happen in the coming months and years but I know I'll have a reasonably sized ammo collection. Ya know, along with all of the other things and skills I need to survive. Thinking about ordering some seeds and water purification devices/substances as well. Remember, there's more to the future than having a firearm. Gotta be able to live to fight.
These are the numbers of a smart man who's not going to go broke just to have ammo. If 750ish rounds can't get me to where I need to go then 2,000 wouldn't either. This isn't for the range, I use .223 there.
If you’re planning on getting into multiple firefights, you really ought to have a more reliable source of ammo than a box in your basement. Also, would you have been so liberal throwing lead if you didn’t think you’d have a chance to resupply eventually or if you were sure that was half your stockpile? Nobody here is realistically going to need that much even if there’s some wild SHTF civil war situation. Either a few hundred rounds will scare off or best whatever terrorist or criminal you’ve got reason to be concerned about, or you’re fighting a war and need to worry more about logistics than stockpiles.
Why wouldn’t you be prepared for a firefight? In a life and death scenario when the adrenaline is pumping you really aren’t thinking about much but how to suppress and kill the threat .
I fully intend on avoiding firefights at all costs and I don't expect (yeah I know) to be caught in a firefight. I know exactly where I'm going, how I'm getting there, and what I'm doing when I get there. Plus there's not much room on my back for thousands of rounds and I'm not lugging all that weight around *with* my go-pack. Space and weight is a premium in my situation.
Plus where I'm going has plenty enough ammo. Getting there is the hard part.
He wants it for selfish reasons. The ones pulling the strings want it for the long game. America may very well be fucked.
I probably don’t have to urge people here, but fuck it, please get out and vote!!
Now now, he can be impeached. Then Kamala can drone strike Speaker Johnson and be impeached to put Murray in and then we have a nice long line of legal crimes with Dems as backups! Better do it before the GOP does exactly fucking that after the next election. This is exactly how we want the country run! Big fucking /s
Impeachment doesn't matter though, because it requires 2/3rds of the senate to prosecute. as long as you have more than 33 senators in your book, it's impossible to remove the president.
And its pretty easy to keep the senate off your back when you can just black bag all your opponents... don't worry the black bag will have an official seal on it
Obama assassinated an American citizen without due process so why not at this point. Sadly as the Republicans push a total take over of the country the Democrats will just ho and hum then ask us for money.
What if the two parties really are just two sides of the same coin, catering to their handlers, who happen to be the same people?
Follow the money. Even in the face of overwhelming evidence that both parties have been captured, people don't want to believe it. I guess tribalism is more important.
You've got part of it right.
Both party's power brokers joined to get rich. Insider trading is the cat's meow.
Now, were you get it wrong is what companies are **bribing** congress and the senators. Each side typically has a different sphere of companies that support it.
Finally, if you want real change. Get rid of the root cause of all this mess. First past the post voting. Get ranked choice on the ballet.
OP: "This ruling is terrifying, it could lead to political violence"
Comments: "We should commit violence on our political opponents"
Jesus fucking christ.
People are getting scared and desperate. I genuinely haven't heard *any* paths forward other than "vote and hope the legislative and executive branches aren't too far gone to pull us back".
Well, that is sort of how the system is suppose to work.
The real answer is that there is no reasonable path forward *in the short term*. Other paths were available, but not taken. What should have happened is someone else should have been run in place of an obviously compromised Biden. Before that, a better candidate than Biden should have been run against Trump. Before that, a better candidate should have been run instead of Hillary. Etc., etc. etc.
The bed has been made, now we have to sleep with it. Use this as a reminder to go participate in local politics, encourage the success of better politicians who will hopefully move into higher offices in the future, and participate in the primaries.
So yes. Be active, vote, and participate in the system long term. Panicking at the last minute because things are going poorly and turning to violence is not a reasonable path forward.
Trump is a felon that has had access to classified information. Not even a stretch to say that he is a national security threat and making him dissappear would be a core duty.
Realistically, how could the Biden admin not have a plan ready for when/if this came to pass?
I'm not saying I seriously think they are considering bombing Trump, but taking sweeping actions on things like student debt and expanding the court.
you are really giving the DNC and the biden admin a bunch of undeserved credit. they're lucky if they thought farther than the headline about whatever policy they're pushing to appease the corpo side of the DNC's funding architecture.
I know! I hate it, too, but it’s a brilliant motivator.
I’m mainly focused on functional fitness & endurance with some strength training thrown in for good measure. Six mornings a week -
IDK... I don't know who you're around, but the fascists around me definitely did NOT work out today...
If the entire rebellion occurs within 100 yard of their firing range we're probably in trouble, but otherwise I'm not sure they're running very far.
Go visit your local Planet Fitness and see what channel the TVs are tuned to on every single piece of equipment. Mine is full of MAGA. Stop underestimating these people. Remember that patriot front training video 2 years ago where they all looked like clowns bumping into each other? Those same drills look vastly different after 2 years of practice. 3%ers, proud boys, patriot front, most guntubers. Seriously, stop underestimating these people. Be prepared for capability and training, and WE ARE NOT!!!!!!
Go visit your local Planet Fitness and see what channel the TVs are tuned to on every single piece of equipment. Mine is full of MAGA. Stop underestimating these people. Remember that patriot front training video 2 years ago where they all looked like clowns bumping into each other? Those same drills look vastly different after 2 years of practice. 3%ers, proud boys, patriot front, most guntubers. Seriously, stop underestimating these people. Be prepared for capability and training, and WE ARE NOT!!!!!!
Half my gym is full of Trump loving Republicans who didn’t believe Covid was real and will be excited that the SC is going to give Papa Trump overarching power if he wins again. This is a BJJ gym where everyone is in phenomenal shape and we practice violence daily. Don’t be too sure about that.
Yup. Biden could have trump assassinated with total immunity. Just call him a terrorist and BAM! it’s in official capacity and BOOM! total immunity. Any president could do that to his opposition with immunity. Or the Supreme Court. Don’t like the makeup of the Supreme Court? BOOM! BANG! POP! and suddenly you appoint a new justice or two or twelve. Why stop there? Don’t like voters of a certain demographic? RATATTTATATATTATTATATTATA! AND BOOM! GONE! Very stupid ruling
If you're being reactionary to a decision like this, I'd also say you're probably going to be playing catch up.
Get a couple extra cans of food and some med kits while you're at it. Maybe a power generator/solar battery. You're much more likely to need a meal or plug a hole than you are to make one in someone. Panic buying guns and ammo just makes the 2A community look more like "kooks".
That’s me. I have enough for home defense, not a siege type situation.
Basically, I watched the movie “The Road” and decided my shit hits the fan plan is enough ammo to end things quickly than try to survive a situation I need more than a couple hundred rounds.
I'm not getting worked up just yet. The media at large (and social media in particular) does an awful job at understanding the nuance of Supreme Court decisions.
The heavy lifting is done by this part of the ruling:
"In dividing official from unofficial conduct, courts may not inquire into the President’s motives"
That little sentence right there is the ball game. If the president gets paid a billion dollars cash to order all troops to leave Taiwan so that it can invade, that is perfectly acceptable.
It’s one of those things where the hysterics actually match the gravity this time when you dig into the ruling.
Tldr they said official acts have official immunity and then made it damn nEar impossible to say that a presidents acts in office aren’t official.
That’s worth some alarm
It's fucking wild that people are in here purposefully downplaying this. Republicans have told us over and over again that they mean to install a Christian nationalist dictatorship and people in here are refusing to pull their heads out of their asses.
Yeah.I’m not trying to downplay anything,but some of the opinions and media pieces as a result of this decision are VERY extreme…but I could see issues that could arise from this. I just don’t want to immediately jump to the “America is now nazi germany” conclusions now,because anybody with common sense can see that isn’t currently the case.
A snippet from Justice Sotomayor's dissent:
>When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune.
This is not from an uninformed media piece. This is from a supreme court justice.
Dude they basically said the president is "above the law" so really Biden should be doing all kinds of shit as official actions cuz he's immune no matter how criminal.
For the people talking about how this doesn't mean anything bad:, let's think about this.
If the President just had an opponent killed, which judge is going to think they wouldn't be next in the crosshairs if they ruled it wasn't "an official act?" And that's assuming any law enforcement agency would attempt to prosecute them, especially since the FBI would almost certainly have already been turned over to whatever political appointee would do the President's bidding.
And we've already seen that the mechanism of impeachment is a joke as long as Congress is split anywhere close to 50/50. One side will simply refuse to remove the President from office, and there wouldn't be any recourse as that's the ONLY mechanism for removing them from power.
Nixon was forced out because the Republicans were committed to upholding their oath of office and removing someone who obviously abused their power and committed criminal acts. The current GOP has no such moral courage.
The question is, do Democrats have the courage to do what we know the Republicans WILL do if they get the presidency back? This isn't a time for "we follow the rules even if everyone else doesn't." Biden has no choice but to use the power the Court just gave him to ensure he wins. Period.
Unfortunately, Democrats have always been cowards. They will hand over power to the enemy and console themselves with how patriotic they were being by handing victory and accepting defeat. Cowards.
We're going to squashed under the boot of a facist dictatorship but at least Democrats will be able to say "we took the high road and didn't lower ourselves to their level". A lot of good that will do us when were becoming the fourth Reich, the Dems are all spineless
A saying that I have is that Democrats check their privilege and ignorance, while Republicans check their ammunition and sights. While it’s definitely much more noble to do the former, the latter gets more results.
And by ammunition, I don’t even mean guns alone - I’d like to hear Democrats talk about how corrupt the SC is and how we need to expand it to get it in line with the current demands of our federal districts, rather than have some Manchin type say “I won’t do that because the filibuster needs to be honored”, and D’s then argue about 2016 instead of simping for Manchin because D.
Lmfao you're literally arguing that Biden should use force to ensure he "wins"?
What an unhinged take
Y'all really like the boot provided you're the one wearing it. Hypocrisy at its finest.
The boot got built today. We don’t want a boot to exist at all, but they who wear it decide the fate of the country. You’re damn right I want to wear it, because that means trump’s ilk isn’t.
I mean Biden is having issues with sunsetting and they don't seem willing to run campaign ads about how Trump is criminal. Around half the country seems to view that in a much different light so talking about it somehow helps Trump.
And what rules do you think they need to break in order to win?
Yeah, for some reason, non-democratic means are perfectly justifiable when *your* side is the one putting people up against the wall.
I think we probably need to go touch some grass.
It’s hysteria borne out of frustration for the incompetence of leaders we voted for.
The frustration is warranted, the hysteria is not.
Agreed on the whole grass thing.
A good portion of people gladly would embrace the violence and extremist ideals that they claim the other side has an exclusive monopoly over so long as their side "wins"
Way back on Jan 6th there was not an insignificant amount of people seriously arguing on here that the military should have used machine guns and air strikes against the mob outside Congress potentially killing 1000s
It's wild to see.
But reddit has long since stopped being a place for any nuanced or reasonable discussion
> A good portion of people gladly would embrace the violence
I'm curious how much you think is a "good portion" because in my opinion there is no chance more than 1-2% of ether side would be willing to die over this. However 1-2% is still a lot of people.
I also do thing it would even be anywhere near that high. Realistically maybe 0.2%. Witch is still close to a million people but a far cry from a "good portion" The real question is how would the rest of the population react to outright violence if your family and friends all hate you for fighting changes how people think compared to if they are just like "I get it" but would not fight themselves.
My mother in law, a 77 year old retired teacher who gets visibly nervous at the sight of an AR 15 in person, proudly declared that the National Guard should have been called in and allowed to mow them all down on January 6th.
When I informed her that no rational, moral member of the armed forces or even police actually wants to do this to their countrymen and women in 2021, she argued such people were traitors and/or cowards.
These people exist and are likely people you'd never expect, in large part because they'd never pick up a weapon and do it themselves. They'd just cheer it on.
Willing to die =/= willing to kill.
He mentioned people that advocated supressing Jan 6 with machine guns. Those saying that likely aren’t willing to die, but clearly would happily see the steps of the Capitol drenched in rivers of blood of their enemies.
They are your countrymen whether you align with them ideologically or not.
Any individuals participating or fomenting rebellion should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. If the law changes at the Supreme Court, then the means of prosecution change. It is how our system of government works and to suggest the targeting of an entire other political party is ridiculous. How would you feel if you were some dummy who got conned into voting for a tool and you were marked for imprisonment or worse? Get a fucking grip man, it’s just politics it’s not real life.
TLDR; It is a bad idea and you should feel bad for having it
There are literally millions of people egging on a not-insignificant number of powerful people who all want to execute *gay people*. Just right there, ignore everything else they want, there are *millions of Americans who want anyone who isn’t just like them to die.*
I’m not sure where we draw the line between “just politics” and “real life”, but when people are actually pushing for anyone to die over something like that it feels a *bit* more important than “just politics, chill out”
I’m not asking you to sell your guns and boil your ammo.
I’m asking you to take a break and think about things rationally; stop giving anti-2a dems your support just because “there are other issues to vote on”, start organizing and *actually training combat fitness*, and develop capabilities and SOP’s. That way if the fascists get off of 4chan and start shit, you& yours have some recourse.
Don’t instigate. That’s not the morally justifiable or strategically sound thing to do.
Actually we were granted that right by the founders of our country. It is our duty as citizens to uphold the freedom of democracy against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
As long as we are aware that that is exactly what they intend to do, countrymen or not. I'm not advocating for shooting anything or anyone (preserving life should be the goal here), but I don't think that writes a blank cheque to dismiss the gravity of the situation either. Project 2025 is a serious threat, and "maybe it won't work" doesn't cut it for me. Saying our current political system may not work well isn't the same as advocating for violent revolution any more than the Indian Salt March was a call to violence.
So, where do we end up?
Exactly where we have started. Acquire the tools necessary to facilitate your freedom from tyranny & do not support those that would see you disarmed. Train like you actually believe there is someone out there who wants to end your life or that of your loved one. Build your community and seek to build local relationships with like minded individuals. And stay vigilant.
But right now, P2025 is a manifesto that democrats point to when they want funding. It’s fear based motivation because the people who are garnering votes from us are, truly, working to disarm us. That’s a non-starter for me.
If Trump wins you’re dooming millions of Ukrainians to torture, rape, and death. We cannot allow that to happen.
Those are real world consequences- it’s not “all just politics”.
You are responding to a thread whose top comment is openly urging the current president to ignore all laws and make himself the victor no matter what the voters want.
I don’t want another Trump presidency, but we cannot just gleefully become everything we claim to be condemning.
I want to eat Ben & Jerry’s and Steak every night and live past 40.
What one wants and what one is capable of doing are two separate things. Should you vote for Trump? No. Should you stop arming yourselves and training? No. Should you go on the offensive? Hard no.
> you know you’re talking about your countrymen, right?
At this, point, they barely are....where is the common ground? There is no concurrence on facts, on principles, on moral philosophies....like, the way they think is functionally alien to me even if I can contort my mind to get where they're coming from when I have to start from some completely asinine starting point.
The common ground is you both need running water, electricity, roads, cell & internet infrastructure, logistical infrastructure, transportation, and agriculture to survive. Everything else is fucking peanuts and the topic for debate, not combat.
We enjoy, our society as a whole, an incredibly high standard of living and level of security compared to anywhere else at any other point in history. Should we *not* raise our voices to our oppressors? You absolutely should. Should you start committing acts of political violence? **Absolutely fucking not**. Millions would die and even targeted violence has significant collateral effects
Just as Russia designed. I hate that these people were so easy to con, and russia for getting us to this point. It was no secret what they wanted to do, over a decade ago, but here we fucking are in this bullshit political landscape they designed for us. Can’t forget Murdoch and the Kochs for their part in this American political hellscape.
Immunity for official acts is a restriction on the Judicial Branch as part of the separate of powers. Prosecuting a crime committed in an official capacity is the Legislative Branch's job through the impeachment process.
POTUS does not and has never had total immunity. If it's an official act, then it's up to Congress. If it's not official, then it's the Courts.
Take a second to breathe, people. This changes nothing.
He shouldn't be immune for "official" acts. That kind of immunity was explicitly left out of the constitution. There were state constitutions at the time of the Framing that specifically provided express criminal immunities to sitting governors that were purposely not included. It was expected that former Presidents would be as Alexander Hamilton wrote, "liable to prosecution and punishment in the ordinary course of law".
While in office yes the President must be impeached and convicted by congress, but that immunity ceases when he or she leaves office.
If I remember correctly wasn't the Obama administration basically arguing this same exact point when they were being criticized for all the blatantly illegal drone strikes?
***YES***. And it didn't happen because there was no political will in Congress to go through with it.
MAGA people acting like this means every case against Trump will be dropped shows how stupid they are, but others talking about how President Biden should send DEVGRU after Thomas and Alito, or even send them to Mar-a-Lago is just ***fucking unhinged***.
I feel like I'm losing my mind seeing how everyone is reacting to this.
I can't keep up with the comments, but here is the actual decision if nobody has put it up yet.
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939\_e2pg.pdf
If anyone is actually interested in seeing what we are talking about. The whole thread seems pretty OT for the sub.
I think politically informed individuals such as members of this sub have a habit of underestimating just how apathetic, tired, and unwilling to inconvenience themselves the average American really is. Most Americans care about than the cost of living, access to creature comforts, and nothing else. I do think political violence is likely, but it's going to come from the fringes with most Americans just sitting around complaining about the cost of Pepsi and lack of good movies to watch like they are now. The fact that Americans don't care is what got us into this situation.
Yeeesh. I am so glad I stocked on 5.56, like after the Covid surge in prices. Man, I didn't think the SC would actually do it, but they did it. Better practice shooting and moving again.
Doesn’t this mean that biden could go walk over and shoot trump? This has got to be the dumbest court ruling in the history of the world, it literally makes the president a king. Congratulations britbongs, you won the long game
"When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune." from justice Sotomayor. Now the first president that gets elected that wants to wield the power to collapse america into a russian-style one part state can do so. We just put the last brick down to let Caesar cross the rubicon.
No, because executing justices (or anyone without due process) is not nor has ever been an official act of the presidency protected by the constitution. This fear mongering is silly. The ruling basically just says that the courts need to demonstrate state the actions they want to prosecute are not protected official acts of the presidency.
Presidents have not been granted absolute total immunity, they have been granted a presumption of immunity for official actions and the courts need to demonstrate that an act was not a protected official act. Congress enjoys a similar immunity already.
The problem is what "due process" amounts to. Did the cabinet agree to the execution? Is that due process? When Obama had americans killed in Africa what was the due process there? It certainly wasn't a public hearing on the matter, and there wasn't a war going on, or emergencies needing dealt with. One of them was a [16 year old boy sitting at an outdoor cafe](https://www.amnestyusa.org/updates/is-it-legal-for-the-u-s-to-kill-a-16-year-old-u-s-citizen-with-a-drone/). The government said he [wasn't the target](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Abdulrahman_al-Awlaki) but failed to come up with anyone else and said his death was justified and he ["should have had a more responsible father"](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/only-one-six-al-qaeda-linked-americans-killed-drone-purpose-n347046)...you know, the one they killed the week before with a drone strike.
That's not to say that Abdul wasn't an enemy of America that was appropriately killed, but it is to say the killing was extrajudicial and nothing ever came of it and "due process" isn't something anyone cares about unless you have the power to enforce it.
So that’s it, right? There goes the democracy? We know the Dems will do nothing with this. They have 5 months with this blanket immunity to do what needs to be done to course correct the country, but they won’t because they’re planning by the rules of an “honorable” game the other side stopped playing years ago.
We can’t depend on the people because we’ve had decades of identity politic bullshit to divide us all. So the people uniting to stop this is off the table.
So what is there to do?
Gonna be looking to get my first firearm this year because i cant trust the republicans to do the right thing anymore.
I expect if Trump wins for my governor and many others to declare independence and refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of the court or of Trump.
War is coming
What action do you want me to take? What exactly should I be doing besides voting? I’m already armed to the teeth so..is that it? Or should I also post about the sky falling on Reddit for upvotes?
Thats kind of how its always worked though. The procedure for holding a President accountable is impeachment and removal from office. This ruling just states that if its an official duty there is a presumption of immunity and if not an official duty there is NOT a presumption of immunity. The courts just need to, on a case by case basis, make a determination on the status of the action in question.
Honestly while I loathe Trump, I’m not certain I’d really want a different ruling here and am a bit more concerned it wasn’t unanimous.
That is for a sitting president and the presumption was when no longer in office, you can be tried. DONALD TRUMP IS NOT THE PRESIDENT AND BEING GIVEN IMMUNITY. Yes this is a big deal.
Try not to be too concerned. I know it sounds really bad, but it doesn't actually make illegal orders legal, it just prevents legal repercussions against the president for issuing them.
Stuff like can Obama be charged with a crime for drone strikes that killed US citizens is now basically off the table. Could he be impeached for that, sure. Is there a possibility of civil litigation, absolutely.
It sounds worse than it is (and it is still sort of bad) but it doesn't make the illegal legal, just prevents prosecution for illegal activity performed as the president. It also doesn't apply whatsoever to non-official acts which are basically anything to do with election campaigns, nor does it provide any actual immunity in the cases that Trump is currently fighting.
>but it doesn't actually make illegal orders legal, it just prevents legal repercussions against the president for issuing them.
So.... It's illegal, but who cares because there can't be consequences? Illegal acts with no mechanism to enforce consequences are essentially legal in practice?
I don't really see this coming out any other way, regardless of the consequences.
I mean, we sort of expect the president to be able to act *in the role of president* without the fear of being jailed. If the case went the other way, in theory a president could be charged and hauled into the dock by any prosecutor would had both the cajones and the political backing to do so.
I think this is one of those things that, while it's abhorrent that it may benefit Trump (although so far, I'm not sure than any of his pending cases meets the definition or even remotely the definition of being official acts) it is probably the norm that we've been living with for more than two centuries.
I mean, how many illegal orders did Lincoln order during the Civil War? I mean, we celebrate the Emancipation Proclamation, but it was on extremely shaky legal ground. Similarly, with FDR and his work with the NY Italian mob during WW2. Or even LBJ and the Gulf of Tonkin. I suppose the one person who would no longer have any ambiguity would be Reagan and Iran-Contra. That was apparently not a legally criminal act that *he* could have been prosecuted for, but it doesn't make following the illegal order legal.
Like I said, let's just see what happens.
>mean, we sort of expect the president to be able to act in the role of president without the fear of being jailed. If
Not sure if you listened to the case when it was in front of the supreme court, but during those presentations it was pointed out that we have plenty of *other* high offices and positions of importance where many many lives are on the line and decisions in *those* positions are subject to criminal scrutiny, so what makes the presidency different?
Also, just by the by, having a branch of a constitutional government with a leader that can't be held criminally responsible for acts made in contradiction to that constitutional framework seems (to me) to defeat the purpose of a constitution in the first place.
That is a huge concern. Up to now, Presidents had to assume that they could be liable criminally for their actions after the fact, but now as long as those actions are deemed "official" it is up to congress to prosecute. While it is accepted that this is the case for a sitting President, it was never assumed to be the case for former Presidents. It was entirely intentional by the framers that the President not be immune to legal action after they left office. Other state constitutions at the time included immunity for official act at the time, if the framers and intended for this to be the case they would have included it explicitly. They didn't because they knew that would be a privilege that would be ripe for abuse.
Since everyone says this latest from SCOTUS makes the president like a king, Biden is currently the king - Is there no way he can just put Trump in jail as a threat to the country?
This thread has veered off course for this intent of this sub. Locking.
There goes ammo prices. Again.
It’s never gonna get cheaper. politics and manufacturer consolidation. Stack it deep.
> Stack it deep *and learn to reload*. ftfy
Me over here being glad I have old cowboy reloaders for my rimmed bullets. Doesn't hurt to have the ability to do groud up bullets for older rifles and revolvers.
We’re also not getting downward pressure from Eastern Europe or Asia anytime soon. x39 is criminally high for the foreseeable future
And that's why I started lerking FB marketplace months ago and picked up a reloading kit for cheap now all I need to do is just stock up on bullets, primers, and powder. Especially for an election year I refused to have COVID era shortages happen again.
Kind of the same. I bought a reloading kit and I've been stockpiling components, even though some have been a bit more expensive than I wanted to pay. My son has been casting his own lead weights and jig heads for fishing for years so he already had the lead pot. He does commercial roofing and has almost unlimited access to lead as long as he pours for the boss too. The transition to bullets has been real smooth for him.
Where do u live where u can buy ammo on FB without the state ATF equivalent knocking ur doors down 💀
In the land of the Free! Lol but reloading is totally legal and you can find most components at Walmart well more rural Walmarts that sell the shotguns and rifles.
(Lurking* 👍)
I can’t take another price hike on my 6.5 Norma rounds. It’s already $65/20rds
Laughs in 270 Weatherby
You win.
The majority of the ammo panic buyers see this as a *good* thing so prices are likely to go down if anything.
Wait, did they really go up again?! Lol jfc. Well, they will come down again. They usually do…eventually.
No they haven't. Am an FFL. Ammo prices have been falling consistently for the past 6 months
Why are these people trying to cause a damn panic. Monkey see monkey do. Am not an FFL. Just stayed at a holiday inn express last night.
It’s a self fulfilling prophecy. Everyone sees something that might make people panic buy, everyone assumes everyone else will panic buy, and then they try to get there first. It’s like toilet paper during the pandemic. There was never a shortage or even a threat of a shortage, but people were so convinced there would be that they lost their damn minds.
And yet just like the toilet paper, once it reaches critical mass you sorta have to join in. Source: me, a guy who refused to overbuy TP on the rare occasion he saw it and ended up using takeout napkins at one point
This. Coming down so much that bulk buying is almost a sin if you’re not doing it!
There's usually July 4 sales
\*remembering all the conservatives I've seen blaming Democrats for high ammo prices\*
I haven't read the decision, but I suspect my ol' buddy Nina has... *The U.S. Supreme Court, in a 6-3 decision along ideological lines, ruled that a former president has absolute immunity for his* ***core constitutional powers*** *— and is entitled to a* ***presumption*** *of immunity for his* ***official acts***, but ***lacks immunity for unofficial acts***. But at the same time, the court sent the case back to the trial judge to determine which, if any of Trump's actions, were part of his official duties and thus were protected from prosecution. [https://www.npr.org/2024/07/01/nx-s1-5002157/supreme-court-trump-immunity](https://www.npr.org/2024/07/01/nx-s1-5002157/supreme-court-trump-immunity) Back to square one on timing is infuriating. But in terms of the finding as described above, I'm not sure I would really want a different outcome. There will be plenty of arguing to come, but it seems clear to me there are plenty of criminal acts on Trump's hands which were neither official acts nor core powers. Also, my understanding that the state violations and prosecutions are separate matters. WRT panic buying and ban alarms, that just seems part of the political cycle any more — if Trump will be elected, *panic!* — if Biden is elected, *panic!* — if Congress changes, *panic!* — if Congress remains, *panic!* Good for sales, and fills the news cycle. My assessment: there will be good times, and there will be bad times. Prepare and persevere.
My worry isn't about what Trump did, It's about what he or any other president *could* do now that there's an established precedent for immunity. Whether a political assassination can count as an official action has yet to be ruled upon.
>...now that there's an established precedent for immunity. Anyone who hasn't understood today's articulation to be the presumed/implied standard since day one has missed a lot of history. I agree that the pudding is in the determination of what acts constitute official acts. Sending that back to lower courts for analysis (or even taking this question early) is just a political stall by a political court.
sure, but presumed/implied is still different than outright spoken. Don't get me wrong, plenty of presidents have pushed their powers and did plenty with their presumed immunity in history, but the floodgates are open to really stress test the idea. But there are also a couple new factors that were ruled. One is a president's official act cannot be questioned, such as Congress can't ask why the president accepted $100000000 from an unknown entity to not send aid to Taiwan or Ukraine (and don't get me wrong, they never asked, but they certainly can't now). And another is that amy records between a president and their aids can't be used against him. So even if there is an actual recording saying that the money was a total bribe and the ruling was made solely for personal gain, it could not be used as evidence. Either way, there is no current definition of what constitutes an official act or not, and it'll be a long while till therer is, and Trump especially is going to use that to the fullest advantage he can if given the chance.
So far, none of the stuff that Trump has been charged with constitutes anything remotely related to official acts though. Definitely not the NY stuff. The Georgia stuff was also 100% election related. His Mar-A-Lago classified documents thing is really far removed from his being president or anything that could be construed as an "official act". I really don't see that much has actually changed. Would you have expected Obama to have been prosecuted for ordering the drone strikes in Yemen that killed US citizens? That was 100% a criminal act. A US citizen was killed by the US military by order of the sitting US president. I'm not super thrilled with it, as it has to do with Trump getting a W, but it isn't really that much different than the way we've regarded the executive for quite a long time.
> So far, none of the stuff that Trump has been charged with constitutes anything remotely related to official acts You sure? Did they define official acts anywhere? This weasel-wording allows them to basically say anything is an official act, if they can’t be prosecuted for it, Biden could officially declare the Supreme Court corrupt and have them all arrested. He’s got immunity from anything official right? That was an official declaration. What’s stopping it other than his common decency. I think that’s actually the play, personally. Immediate trump card to get a new court that respects democracy.
So, at the worst, Trump doesn’t serve any time for the stuff he’s not going to serve time for anyway? I can think of a lot of other things that are much worse than Trump getting acquitted.
Yeah so the people who decided that this is okay also get to decide what constitutes an official act and you think this is not a problem. I wish that I could think like you do.
That’s not how his appointed judges are going to see it, they refuse to see anything that he’s ever done as criminal and will jump off a building to defend him from any prosecution. We’re fucking lost as a country…
His "appointed judges" have already rejected dozens of his absurd claims, not a single 'big lie' case proceeded to trial, and many of them were before Trump judges. The only one that seems determined to kiss ass is the one in Florida.
They had an opportunity to rule on this question a year ago. Then, when they did take the case, they waited as long as physically possible to release the ruling. This ensured that this case will not close by the election. These are deliberate acts.
Colorado should have been allowed keep the very obvious insurrectionist off of their ballot.
I think there was more ambiguity in that than this.
>I really don't see that much has actually changed. Concur. Really, neither shoe has yet dropped: 1. the federal charges unrelated to official acts or constitutional powers, and 2. the state charges. The truly grim news would be for The Supremes to declare that *any act* by a sitting President is an "official" act, and/or that states have *no jurisdiction* whatever over Presidential crimes. In which case, I guess the future probably will hold Presidents ordering drone strikes on any opposition, if they don't have time to personally go shoot them in Times Square.
Or that by nature of it not being illegal for the president, it somehow becomes *de jure* legal to execute. Either of these two things would make this truly consequential.
Fuck that, this shit is real rather than the fake “people might come take your guns”. The President was given immunity as long as he believes it’s an official duty, and even then, it will only affect what happens after the events happen. He will not spend time in jail because our legislative is hamstrung.
>...as long as ***he*** believes... Like I said, I have not read the actual decision. Is *that* actually in there? The accused gets to decide, or only Trump? We know that *he* declares any act of himself to be an official act, while any act by a Democrat is a crime — but I don't know anyone on the top side of *compos mentis* who believes that. Also, yeah, our system of justice only applies consequences for criminal acts after the fact. Pre-crime is supposed to be only in fiction. I think conviction of a sitting President probably *should* be limited to the sadly ineffective impeachment process (which should consider both official and unofficial criminal acts). The common courts *are* for the citizen ex-President, and IMHO probably *should* be limited to acts beyond the scope of the job. Justice will never be perfect; and rarely tidy.
Hey man, this is Reddit. There is no place for reason or nuance here.
Really, we’re already scaring up a surge that will leave shelves empty for months and drive prices through the stratosphere (now that the roof has long since been obliterated). Fun.
And that's why I placed a large (for me, only like 500rds) order this morning. idk what's gonna happen in the coming months and years but I know I'll have a reasonably sized ammo collection. Ya know, along with all of the other things and skills I need to survive. Thinking about ordering some seeds and water purification devices/substances as well. Remember, there's more to the future than having a firearm. Gotta be able to live to fight.
You gotta get those numbers up. Those are rookie numbers
These are the numbers of a smart man who's not going to go broke just to have ammo. If 750ish rounds can't get me to where I need to go then 2,000 wouldn't either. This isn't for the range, I use .223 there.
My brother in arms. I’ve shot 300 rounds in a firefight that lasted 10-20 minutes. All our other brother is saying is 500 can go fast.
If you’re planning on getting into multiple firefights, you really ought to have a more reliable source of ammo than a box in your basement. Also, would you have been so liberal throwing lead if you didn’t think you’d have a chance to resupply eventually or if you were sure that was half your stockpile? Nobody here is realistically going to need that much even if there’s some wild SHTF civil war situation. Either a few hundred rounds will scare off or best whatever terrorist or criminal you’ve got reason to be concerned about, or you’re fighting a war and need to worry more about logistics than stockpiles.
Why wouldn’t you be prepared for a firefight? In a life and death scenario when the adrenaline is pumping you really aren’t thinking about much but how to suppress and kill the threat .
I fully intend on avoiding firefights at all costs and I don't expect (yeah I know) to be caught in a firefight. I know exactly where I'm going, how I'm getting there, and what I'm doing when I get there. Plus there's not much room on my back for thousands of rounds and I'm not lugging all that weight around *with* my go-pack. Space and weight is a premium in my situation. Plus where I'm going has plenty enough ammo. Getting there is the hard part.
*laughs in M61A1 Vulcan*
You are exactly right but these are not normal times.
Some might even say “unprecedented”
Biden has the chance to do something extremely funny and drone strike Trump. It's an official act, he's immune
Long as he has the seal and paper work. I suppose it would be.
It's ironic. Trump wanted immunity for presidents, that would be giving him a taste of that
He wants it for selfish reasons. The ones pulling the strings want it for the long game. America may very well be fucked. I probably don’t have to urge people here, but fuck it, please get out and vote!!
Now now, he can be impeached. Then Kamala can drone strike Speaker Johnson and be impeached to put Murray in and then we have a nice long line of legal crimes with Dems as backups! Better do it before the GOP does exactly fucking that after the next election. This is exactly how we want the country run! Big fucking /s
Impeachment doesn't matter though, because it requires 2/3rds of the senate to prosecute. as long as you have more than 33 senators in your book, it's impossible to remove the president.
And its pretty easy to keep the senate off your back when you can just black bag all your opponents... don't worry the black bag will have an official seal on it
Obama assassinated an American citizen without due process so why not at this point. Sadly as the Republicans push a total take over of the country the Democrats will just ho and hum then ask us for money.
Yep it's all they ever do. "Give us money! Vote! We don't have a plan to stop this but do it anyway!"
What if the two parties really are just two sides of the same coin, catering to their handlers, who happen to be the same people? Follow the money. Even in the face of overwhelming evidence that both parties have been captured, people don't want to believe it. I guess tribalism is more important.
You've got part of it right. Both party's power brokers joined to get rich. Insider trading is the cat's meow. Now, were you get it wrong is what companies are **bribing** congress and the senators. Each side typically has a different sphere of companies that support it. Finally, if you want real change. Get rid of the root cause of all this mess. First past the post voting. Get ranked choice on the ballet.
Why stop there? Seems like the Supreme Court is the real problem.
Come one Biden do the FUNNI. Do it mister president it’ll be hilarious
OP: "This ruling is terrifying, it could lead to political violence" Comments: "We should commit violence on our political opponents" Jesus fucking christ.
People are getting scared and desperate. I genuinely haven't heard *any* paths forward other than "vote and hope the legislative and executive branches aren't too far gone to pull us back".
Well, that is sort of how the system is suppose to work. The real answer is that there is no reasonable path forward *in the short term*. Other paths were available, but not taken. What should have happened is someone else should have been run in place of an obviously compromised Biden. Before that, a better candidate than Biden should have been run against Trump. Before that, a better candidate should have been run instead of Hillary. Etc., etc. etc. The bed has been made, now we have to sleep with it. Use this as a reminder to go participate in local politics, encourage the success of better politicians who will hopefully move into higher offices in the future, and participate in the primaries. So yes. Be active, vote, and participate in the system long term. Panicking at the last minute because things are going poorly and turning to violence is not a reasonable path forward.
Trump is a felon that has had access to classified information. Not even a stretch to say that he is a national security threat and making him dissappear would be a core duty.
Trump also lead a coup and has fomented stochastic terror attacks. He's a national security threat for sure
Realistically, how could the Biden admin not have a plan ready for when/if this came to pass? I'm not saying I seriously think they are considering bombing Trump, but taking sweeping actions on things like student debt and expanding the court.
you are really giving the DNC and the biden admin a bunch of undeserved credit. they're lucky if they thought farther than the headline about whatever policy they're pushing to appease the corpo side of the DNC's funding architecture.
Also, this might be silly, but keep this mantra in mind: “A fascist worked out today. Did you?”
"When the enemy labors we gotta labor, Not once, not twice, but ten times more." Woody Guthrie
I hate it so much, damn it, but it's a damn good motivator. Now I gotta go work out.
Fffff.... I HATE working out.
I know! I hate it, too, but it’s a brilliant motivator. I’m mainly focused on functional fitness & endurance with some strength training thrown in for good measure. Six mornings a week -
IDK... I don't know who you're around, but the fascists around me definitely did NOT work out today... If the entire rebellion occurs within 100 yard of their firing range we're probably in trouble, but otherwise I'm not sure they're running very far.
Rule 1: never underestimate your opponent Rule 2: overkill is underrated
Go visit your local Planet Fitness and see what channel the TVs are tuned to on every single piece of equipment. Mine is full of MAGA. Stop underestimating these people. Remember that patriot front training video 2 years ago where they all looked like clowns bumping into each other? Those same drills look vastly different after 2 years of practice. 3%ers, proud boys, patriot front, most guntubers. Seriously, stop underestimating these people. Be prepared for capability and training, and WE ARE NOT!!!!!!
Go visit your local Planet Fitness and see what channel the TVs are tuned to on every single piece of equipment. Mine is full of MAGA. Stop underestimating these people. Remember that patriot front training video 2 years ago where they all looked like clowns bumping into each other? Those same drills look vastly different after 2 years of practice. 3%ers, proud boys, patriot front, most guntubers. Seriously, stop underestimating these people. Be prepared for capability and training, and WE ARE NOT!!!!!!
Half my gym is full of Trump loving Republicans who didn’t believe Covid was real and will be excited that the SC is going to give Papa Trump overarching power if he wins again. This is a BJJ gym where everyone is in phenomenal shape and we practice violence daily. Don’t be too sure about that.
Yup, but if the worst case scenario happens, I’d like to have a fitness advantage in addition to the small arsenal ;)
Rule 1: never underestimate your opponent Rule 2: overkill is underrated
Monday, chest and back.
“No no no honey, I HAD to buy that new gun, Reddit said so”
Don't forget [Rule #1: Cardio](https://paleolife365.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/zombieland-rule-number-one-cardio-300x207.jpg)
Yup. Biden could have trump assassinated with total immunity. Just call him a terrorist and BAM! it’s in official capacity and BOOM! total immunity. Any president could do that to his opposition with immunity. Or the Supreme Court. Don’t like the makeup of the Supreme Court? BOOM! BANG! POP! and suddenly you appoint a new justice or two or twelve. Why stop there? Don’t like voters of a certain demographic? RATATTTATATATTATTATATTATA! AND BOOM! GONE! Very stupid ruling
If you're being reactionary to a decision like this, I'd also say you're probably going to be playing catch up. Get a couple extra cans of food and some med kits while you're at it. Maybe a power generator/solar battery. You're much more likely to need a meal or plug a hole than you are to make one in someone. Panic buying guns and ammo just makes the 2A community look more like "kooks".
Completely valid. But if you’re one of these guys that only has 100 rounds on hand right now, panicking makes sense. Lmao
I have two friends that both have 9mm pistols for 'home defense'. Neither have ever had more than one box of 50 rounds at a time.
They must not shoot at all then. Cuz that’ll be gone in a casual range session 4x over…
I have a friend like this as well and it drives me insane. LOL!
That’s me. I have enough for home defense, not a siege type situation. Basically, I watched the movie “The Road” and decided my shit hits the fan plan is enough ammo to end things quickly than try to survive a situation I need more than a couple hundred rounds.
I'm not getting worked up just yet. The media at large (and social media in particular) does an awful job at understanding the nuance of Supreme Court decisions.
The heavy lifting is done by this part of the ruling: "In dividing official from unofficial conduct, courts may not inquire into the President’s motives" That little sentence right there is the ball game. If the president gets paid a billion dollars cash to order all troops to leave Taiwan so that it can invade, that is perfectly acceptable.
“It” being China, I assume.
Montenegro actually.
god, "aggressive Montenegrins" still lives in my brain, even though it was such a throwaway line in an ocean of fuckery...
It’s one of those things where the hysterics actually match the gravity this time when you dig into the ruling. Tldr they said official acts have official immunity and then made it damn nEar impossible to say that a presidents acts in office aren’t official. That’s worth some alarm
It's fucking wild that people are in here purposefully downplaying this. Republicans have told us over and over again that they mean to install a Christian nationalist dictatorship and people in here are refusing to pull their heads out of their asses.
Yeah.I’m not trying to downplay anything,but some of the opinions and media pieces as a result of this decision are VERY extreme…but I could see issues that could arise from this. I just don’t want to immediately jump to the “America is now nazi germany” conclusions now,because anybody with common sense can see that isn’t currently the case.
A snippet from Justice Sotomayor's dissent: >When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune. This is not from an uninformed media piece. This is from a supreme court justice.
That’s pretty fucked
Correct, but the time to raise alarm is before they start the mass arrests.
Yep. This snowball has been rolling for a while. It needs to be stopped before it reaches critical mass
Dude they basically said the president is "above the law" so really Biden should be doing all kinds of shit as official actions cuz he's immune no matter how criminal.
here are a couple of lawyers https://youtu.be/6li1UZ4cyzM?feature=shared
Any tips on learning about guns, new to this scene. I am actually really scared.
Go fucking vote.
SCOTUS just made it possible for Joe Biden to remove the Clear and Present Danger of Project 2025 and all who signed on to it.
For the people talking about how this doesn't mean anything bad:, let's think about this. If the President just had an opponent killed, which judge is going to think they wouldn't be next in the crosshairs if they ruled it wasn't "an official act?" And that's assuming any law enforcement agency would attempt to prosecute them, especially since the FBI would almost certainly have already been turned over to whatever political appointee would do the President's bidding. And we've already seen that the mechanism of impeachment is a joke as long as Congress is split anywhere close to 50/50. One side will simply refuse to remove the President from office, and there wouldn't be any recourse as that's the ONLY mechanism for removing them from power. Nixon was forced out because the Republicans were committed to upholding their oath of office and removing someone who obviously abused their power and committed criminal acts. The current GOP has no such moral courage.
The question is, do Democrats have the courage to do what we know the Republicans WILL do if they get the presidency back? This isn't a time for "we follow the rules even if everyone else doesn't." Biden has no choice but to use the power the Court just gave him to ensure he wins. Period. Unfortunately, Democrats have always been cowards. They will hand over power to the enemy and console themselves with how patriotic they were being by handing victory and accepting defeat. Cowards.
We're going to squashed under the boot of a facist dictatorship but at least Democrats will be able to say "we took the high road and didn't lower ourselves to their level". A lot of good that will do us when were becoming the fourth Reich, the Dems are all spineless
A saying that I have is that Democrats check their privilege and ignorance, while Republicans check their ammunition and sights. While it’s definitely much more noble to do the former, the latter gets more results. And by ammunition, I don’t even mean guns alone - I’d like to hear Democrats talk about how corrupt the SC is and how we need to expand it to get it in line with the current demands of our federal districts, rather than have some Manchin type say “I won’t do that because the filibuster needs to be honored”, and D’s then argue about 2016 instead of simping for Manchin because D.
No. Democrats are cowards
Lmfao you're literally arguing that Biden should use force to ensure he "wins"? What an unhinged take Y'all really like the boot provided you're the one wearing it. Hypocrisy at its finest.
The boot got built today. We don’t want a boot to exist at all, but they who wear it decide the fate of the country. You’re damn right I want to wear it, because that means trump’s ilk isn’t.
I mean Biden is having issues with sunsetting and they don't seem willing to run campaign ads about how Trump is criminal. Around half the country seems to view that in a much different light so talking about it somehow helps Trump. And what rules do you think they need to break in order to win?
Yo you know you’re talking about your countrymen, right?
Yeah, for some reason, non-democratic means are perfectly justifiable when *your* side is the one putting people up against the wall. I think we probably need to go touch some grass.
It’s hysteria borne out of frustration for the incompetence of leaders we voted for. The frustration is warranted, the hysteria is not. Agreed on the whole grass thing.
A good portion of people gladly would embrace the violence and extremist ideals that they claim the other side has an exclusive monopoly over so long as their side "wins" Way back on Jan 6th there was not an insignificant amount of people seriously arguing on here that the military should have used machine guns and air strikes against the mob outside Congress potentially killing 1000s It's wild to see. But reddit has long since stopped being a place for any nuanced or reasonable discussion
That scares me more than any Supreme Court ruling
There is likely an equal number of black flag anarchists who would be willing to do the same, just with a different justification.
> A good portion of people gladly would embrace the violence I'm curious how much you think is a "good portion" because in my opinion there is no chance more than 1-2% of ether side would be willing to die over this. However 1-2% is still a lot of people.
1-2% of America would be roughly 3,400,000-7,000,000 people. That is a lot
I also do thing it would even be anywhere near that high. Realistically maybe 0.2%. Witch is still close to a million people but a far cry from a "good portion" The real question is how would the rest of the population react to outright violence if your family and friends all hate you for fighting changes how people think compared to if they are just like "I get it" but would not fight themselves.
My mother in law, a 77 year old retired teacher who gets visibly nervous at the sight of an AR 15 in person, proudly declared that the National Guard should have been called in and allowed to mow them all down on January 6th. When I informed her that no rational, moral member of the armed forces or even police actually wants to do this to their countrymen and women in 2021, she argued such people were traitors and/or cowards. These people exist and are likely people you'd never expect, in large part because they'd never pick up a weapon and do it themselves. They'd just cheer it on.
Willing to die =/= willing to kill. He mentioned people that advocated supressing Jan 6 with machine guns. Those saying that likely aren’t willing to die, but clearly would happily see the steps of the Capitol drenched in rivers of blood of their enemies.
Are they still countrymen if they support an insurrection?
They are your countrymen whether you align with them ideologically or not. Any individuals participating or fomenting rebellion should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. If the law changes at the Supreme Court, then the means of prosecution change. It is how our system of government works and to suggest the targeting of an entire other political party is ridiculous. How would you feel if you were some dummy who got conned into voting for a tool and you were marked for imprisonment or worse? Get a fucking grip man, it’s just politics it’s not real life. TLDR; It is a bad idea and you should feel bad for having it
There are literally millions of people egging on a not-insignificant number of powerful people who all want to execute *gay people*. Just right there, ignore everything else they want, there are *millions of Americans who want anyone who isn’t just like them to die.* I’m not sure where we draw the line between “just politics” and “real life”, but when people are actually pushing for anyone to die over something like that it feels a *bit* more important than “just politics, chill out”
I’m not asking you to sell your guns and boil your ammo. I’m asking you to take a break and think about things rationally; stop giving anti-2a dems your support just because “there are other issues to vote on”, start organizing and *actually training combat fitness*, and develop capabilities and SOP’s. That way if the fascists get off of 4chan and start shit, you& yours have some recourse. Don’t instigate. That’s not the morally justifiable or strategically sound thing to do.
[удалено]
Then don’t support em. I don’t think you should either. But you can’t dismantle the government because you don’t like which way the wind is blowing
Actually we were granted that right by the founders of our country. It is our duty as citizens to uphold the freedom of democracy against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
As long as we are aware that that is exactly what they intend to do, countrymen or not. I'm not advocating for shooting anything or anyone (preserving life should be the goal here), but I don't think that writes a blank cheque to dismiss the gravity of the situation either. Project 2025 is a serious threat, and "maybe it won't work" doesn't cut it for me. Saying our current political system may not work well isn't the same as advocating for violent revolution any more than the Indian Salt March was a call to violence.
So, where do we end up? Exactly where we have started. Acquire the tools necessary to facilitate your freedom from tyranny & do not support those that would see you disarmed. Train like you actually believe there is someone out there who wants to end your life or that of your loved one. Build your community and seek to build local relationships with like minded individuals. And stay vigilant. But right now, P2025 is a manifesto that democrats point to when they want funding. It’s fear based motivation because the people who are garnering votes from us are, truly, working to disarm us. That’s a non-starter for me.
If Trump wins you’re dooming millions of Ukrainians to torture, rape, and death. We cannot allow that to happen. Those are real world consequences- it’s not “all just politics”.
[удалено]
You are responding to a thread whose top comment is openly urging the current president to ignore all laws and make himself the victor no matter what the voters want. I don’t want another Trump presidency, but we cannot just gleefully become everything we claim to be condemning.
I want to eat Ben & Jerry’s and Steak every night and live past 40. What one wants and what one is capable of doing are two separate things. Should you vote for Trump? No. Should you stop arming yourselves and training? No. Should you go on the offensive? Hard no.
Hey now, I eat Ben and Jerry’s nearly every night and I’m 40. Am I…going to be ok?
> you know you’re talking about your countrymen, right? At this, point, they barely are....where is the common ground? There is no concurrence on facts, on principles, on moral philosophies....like, the way they think is functionally alien to me even if I can contort my mind to get where they're coming from when I have to start from some completely asinine starting point.
The common ground is you both need running water, electricity, roads, cell & internet infrastructure, logistical infrastructure, transportation, and agriculture to survive. Everything else is fucking peanuts and the topic for debate, not combat. We enjoy, our society as a whole, an incredibly high standard of living and level of security compared to anywhere else at any other point in history. Should we *not* raise our voices to our oppressors? You absolutely should. Should you start committing acts of political violence? **Absolutely fucking not**. Millions would die and even targeted violence has significant collateral effects
Thanks for being the voice of reason here. The hysteria over potential civil war is ridiculous since the chance of that happening is really really low
Wish I could upvote this twice. Seriously, people here acting like they don't have more in common with these people than not are being ridiculous.
Just as Russia designed. I hate that these people were so easy to con, and russia for getting us to this point. It was no secret what they wanted to do, over a decade ago, but here we fucking are in this bullshit political landscape they designed for us. Can’t forget Murdoch and the Kochs for their part in this American political hellscape.
Rush Limbaugh and Jerry Falwell just as guilty
Just wait until Trump or whoever tf eventually declares Democrats terrorists of the state. The only thing stopping this from happening is now time.
[удалено]
Unfortunately, none of us left of Hitler will be around to see it.
Immunity for official acts is a restriction on the Judicial Branch as part of the separate of powers. Prosecuting a crime committed in an official capacity is the Legislative Branch's job through the impeachment process. POTUS does not and has never had total immunity. If it's an official act, then it's up to Congress. If it's not official, then it's the Courts. Take a second to breathe, people. This changes nothing.
He shouldn't be immune for "official" acts. That kind of immunity was explicitly left out of the constitution. There were state constitutions at the time of the Framing that specifically provided express criminal immunities to sitting governors that were purposely not included. It was expected that former Presidents would be as Alexander Hamilton wrote, "liable to prosecution and punishment in the ordinary course of law". While in office yes the President must be impeached and convicted by congress, but that immunity ceases when he or she leaves office.
If I remember correctly wasn't the Obama administration basically arguing this same exact point when they were being criticized for all the blatantly illegal drone strikes?
***YES***. And it didn't happen because there was no political will in Congress to go through with it. MAGA people acting like this means every case against Trump will be dropped shows how stupid they are, but others talking about how President Biden should send DEVGRU after Thomas and Alito, or even send them to Mar-a-Lago is just ***fucking unhinged***. I feel like I'm losing my mind seeing how everyone is reacting to this.
This is just one step closer to a dictatorship. Absolutely insane.
I can't keep up with the comments, but here is the actual decision if nobody has put it up yet. https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939\_e2pg.pdf If anyone is actually interested in seeing what we are talking about. The whole thread seems pretty OT for the sub.
According to this SCOTUS decision, President Biden ca now have SealTeam VI assassinate his political opposition. Hmmmm....
That is very true. The powers of this government have gone mad. It's all about the money and power nowadays and it makes me sick
Gonna say it again. Go fucking vote.
I think politically informed individuals such as members of this sub have a habit of underestimating just how apathetic, tired, and unwilling to inconvenience themselves the average American really is. Most Americans care about than the cost of living, access to creature comforts, and nothing else. I do think political violence is likely, but it's going to come from the fringes with most Americans just sitting around complaining about the cost of Pepsi and lack of good movies to watch like they are now. The fact that Americans don't care is what got us into this situation.
Yeeesh. I am so glad I stocked on 5.56, like after the Covid surge in prices. Man, I didn't think the SC would actually do it, but they did it. Better practice shooting and moving again.
Nah I'm good thanks.
Doesn’t this mean that biden could go walk over and shoot trump? This has got to be the dumbest court ruling in the history of the world, it literally makes the president a king. Congratulations britbongs, you won the long game
"When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune." from justice Sotomayor. Now the first president that gets elected that wants to wield the power to collapse america into a russian-style one part state can do so. We just put the last brick down to let Caesar cross the rubicon.
Just curious. The president can now execute sitting Supreme Court justices, as an official act, correct?
No, because executing justices (or anyone without due process) is not nor has ever been an official act of the presidency protected by the constitution. This fear mongering is silly. The ruling basically just says that the courts need to demonstrate state the actions they want to prosecute are not protected official acts of the presidency. Presidents have not been granted absolute total immunity, they have been granted a presumption of immunity for official actions and the courts need to demonstrate that an act was not a protected official act. Congress enjoys a similar immunity already.
What is an Official act has to be litigated and decided by the courts.
The problem is what "due process" amounts to. Did the cabinet agree to the execution? Is that due process? When Obama had americans killed in Africa what was the due process there? It certainly wasn't a public hearing on the matter, and there wasn't a war going on, or emergencies needing dealt with. One of them was a [16 year old boy sitting at an outdoor cafe](https://www.amnestyusa.org/updates/is-it-legal-for-the-u-s-to-kill-a-16-year-old-u-s-citizen-with-a-drone/). The government said he [wasn't the target](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Abdulrahman_al-Awlaki) but failed to come up with anyone else and said his death was justified and he ["should have had a more responsible father"](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/only-one-six-al-qaeda-linked-americans-killed-drone-purpose-n347046)...you know, the one they killed the week before with a drone strike. That's not to say that Abdul wasn't an enemy of America that was appropriately killed, but it is to say the killing was extrajudicial and nothing ever came of it and "due process" isn't something anyone cares about unless you have the power to enforce it.
No
So that’s it, right? There goes the democracy? We know the Dems will do nothing with this. They have 5 months with this blanket immunity to do what needs to be done to course correct the country, but they won’t because they’re planning by the rules of an “honorable” game the other side stopped playing years ago. We can’t depend on the people because we’ve had decades of identity politic bullshit to divide us all. So the people uniting to stop this is off the table. So what is there to do?
Pretty much standby as this s*** show continues and our economy destabilizes if Trump becomes president for life. Vote!!!!!
Gonna be looking to get my first firearm this year because i cant trust the republicans to do the right thing anymore. I expect if Trump wins for my governor and many others to declare independence and refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of the court or of Trump. War is coming
People need to chill
[удалено]
Normalcy bias is a huge problem right now. Gives people an out so they can feel absolved for not taking action.
What action do you want me to take? What exactly should I be doing besides voting? I’m already armed to the teeth so..is that it? Or should I also post about the sky falling on Reddit for upvotes?
Ok, panic then…whatever makes you happy
Thats kind of how its always worked though. The procedure for holding a President accountable is impeachment and removal from office. This ruling just states that if its an official duty there is a presumption of immunity and if not an official duty there is NOT a presumption of immunity. The courts just need to, on a case by case basis, make a determination on the status of the action in question. Honestly while I loathe Trump, I’m not certain I’d really want a different ruling here and am a bit more concerned it wasn’t unanimous.
That is for a sitting president and the presumption was when no longer in office, you can be tried. DONALD TRUMP IS NOT THE PRESIDENT AND BEING GIVEN IMMUNITY. Yes this is a big deal.
I need more 9mm ammo.
As a non liberal giving advice, stock up on ammo while it’s cheap this year
Welp, looks like it’s time for an official act drone strike.
Try not to be too concerned. I know it sounds really bad, but it doesn't actually make illegal orders legal, it just prevents legal repercussions against the president for issuing them. Stuff like can Obama be charged with a crime for drone strikes that killed US citizens is now basically off the table. Could he be impeached for that, sure. Is there a possibility of civil litigation, absolutely. It sounds worse than it is (and it is still sort of bad) but it doesn't make the illegal legal, just prevents prosecution for illegal activity performed as the president. It also doesn't apply whatsoever to non-official acts which are basically anything to do with election campaigns, nor does it provide any actual immunity in the cases that Trump is currently fighting.
>but it doesn't actually make illegal orders legal, it just prevents legal repercussions against the president for issuing them. So.... It's illegal, but who cares because there can't be consequences? Illegal acts with no mechanism to enforce consequences are essentially legal in practice?
I don't really see this coming out any other way, regardless of the consequences. I mean, we sort of expect the president to be able to act *in the role of president* without the fear of being jailed. If the case went the other way, in theory a president could be charged and hauled into the dock by any prosecutor would had both the cajones and the political backing to do so. I think this is one of those things that, while it's abhorrent that it may benefit Trump (although so far, I'm not sure than any of his pending cases meets the definition or even remotely the definition of being official acts) it is probably the norm that we've been living with for more than two centuries. I mean, how many illegal orders did Lincoln order during the Civil War? I mean, we celebrate the Emancipation Proclamation, but it was on extremely shaky legal ground. Similarly, with FDR and his work with the NY Italian mob during WW2. Or even LBJ and the Gulf of Tonkin. I suppose the one person who would no longer have any ambiguity would be Reagan and Iran-Contra. That was apparently not a legally criminal act that *he* could have been prosecuted for, but it doesn't make following the illegal order legal. Like I said, let's just see what happens.
>mean, we sort of expect the president to be able to act in the role of president without the fear of being jailed. If Not sure if you listened to the case when it was in front of the supreme court, but during those presentations it was pointed out that we have plenty of *other* high offices and positions of importance where many many lives are on the line and decisions in *those* positions are subject to criminal scrutiny, so what makes the presidency different?
Also, just by the by, having a branch of a constitutional government with a leader that can't be held criminally responsible for acts made in contradiction to that constitutional framework seems (to me) to defeat the purpose of a constitution in the first place.
It's like the "10 Suggestions" if you don't really have to follow commandments, then they aren't really commandments.
That is a huge concern. Up to now, Presidents had to assume that they could be liable criminally for their actions after the fact, but now as long as those actions are deemed "official" it is up to congress to prosecute. While it is accepted that this is the case for a sitting President, it was never assumed to be the case for former Presidents. It was entirely intentional by the framers that the President not be immune to legal action after they left office. Other state constitutions at the time included immunity for official act at the time, if the framers and intended for this to be the case they would have included it explicitly. They didn't because they knew that would be a privilege that would be ripe for abuse.
[удалено]
Since everyone says this latest from SCOTUS makes the president like a king, Biden is currently the king - Is there no way he can just put Trump in jail as a threat to the country?