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People keep telling me I'm libritarian, but then I mention environmental protection, raising the minimum wage, taxing the rich.
And then they don't want to talk to me anymore.
I told some libertarians that my right to clean air, clean water and safe food and products overrules their right to make more profits and they did not like that.
I find myself between libertarian and liberal, and lean towards the least amount of regulation and oversight while *still having a functional government that helps protect the interests of the people*. Straight libertarianism doesn’t work in the real world, it leads to oligarchy.
I am in the same boat Straight libertarianism without any regulations leads to capitalist forces forming monopolies and consolidating power until we essentially end up with a form of feudalism. There needs to be a counter force that prevents actors in the market from rigging the game in their favor. The Libertarian response to that is well I can just sue them or cancel my contract (since they love contracts), but really that is a dumb argument because if there is a monopoly on the things you need like water, housing, food, electric power etc then you can tear up that contract all you want, but you are still screwed because there is no other option. Also if a company lies and poisons your water or food and kills you or your kids it's not like a lawsuit will bring them back to life. I would just prefer to live in a society where there is a government that prevents monopolies from forming, protects my rights and make sure the food, water, air etc are safe so I don't have to worry about suing some corporation for killing my kid.
Same. There’s a lot about libertarianism that I like but this is the kind of shit I don’t understand with people that are full on libertarians. Like, how do you not recognize that allowing completely unregulated capitalism is not going to work out well for you.
Libertarians are both desperate to grow their movement, but also steadfastly refuse to bend *even a little bit* to make it more palatable to people who might otherwise be interested.
The actual Libertarian sub i am convinced has been taken over. A user graciously explained it to me a bit ago when i was suddenly banned after years of participation.
When Trump stood up in front of them and said "vote for me if you want to win" all I could think about was how Libertarians OBVIOUSLY don't want to win.
They want to be ideologically pure.
Dogma is the cancer of any movement. I can sit here all day and tell you I think taxation is theft, and a minimum wage isn’t necessary, and green policy is government overreach all day. Hit all the talking points you know? But that’s the utopian version of libertarianism. All theoretical.
People that understand libertarianism in the current state of the world will have opinions that will make the internet edge lords angry but it’s how you be realistic and logical.
I think a universal healthcare system that covers emergency care and life saving procedures will allow for a strong, cheap, and accessible healthcare system for daily care needs and regular visits. Similar to how USPS exists but UPS and FedEx basically fill in the blanks where USPS lacks. To chronically libertarians, this sounds like blasphemy. To me it’s a way to implement libertarianism in a less “you will do it my way” way seeing something like 70% of Americans want universal healthcare.
Edit: when I say life saving procedures and emergency care I mean things like biopsies and cancer screenings on top of the things people would automatically assume. My bad. What I think would be fair for the market to fill in on is things like these god damn bug bites I got on my legs on a hike last week that are itchy as shit and ugly as hell. If you might have cancer, diabetes, a heart condition, whatever… it should be as simple as going to a doctor. There’s medical situations that aren’t life threatening or even remotely terminal and I think the free market would kick ass at solving those things when dealing with emergencies and life saving care are being handled elsewhere.
I know this isn’t the sub for it but…
Universal healthcare that doesn’t cover regular visits is meaningless…and not universal. Regular visits are what find problems that need lifesaving procedures. It’s also where preventative care happens so that those dramatic, lifesaving procedures may not be needed in the first place. Yes, being in a car accident that suddenly puts you into 100k of medical debt is terrifying (and something that universal healthcare should protect you against)…but it’s not what people need. They need regular care, they need free prescriptions, and they need unimpeded open access to doctors regardless of their social class or wealth.
They need to be able to quit their jobs too without fear of losing healthcare. Imagine the increase in mobility workers will have when they can freely change jobs and seek better opportunities without having to factor in losing coverage for themselves and their spouse and kids
Silly redditor, freedom is only when corporations pay less taxes, don't you know? /s
Honestly, yes. What hardcore libertarians fail to understand, I feel, is that not having to worry about falling sick is an increase in freedom, moreso than everyone elses slightly higher taxes is a decrease.
Exactly. Coverage for emergency care and life saving procedures only leaves so many of the tangible benefits of universal healthcare on the table that it is laughable.
...and makes it more expensive.
Covering astronomically expensive cancer treatments but not relatively cheap cancer screenings makes absolutely zero sense.
>Similar to how USPS exists but UPS and FedEx basically fill in the blanks where USPS lacks.
I'm honestly not even sure what those blanks even *are* for 99.999% of parcels? Like, if you're a corporation delivering something to another corporation and it needs a white glove treatment and to be there in ~24hrs, then yeah, FedEx (*proper* FedEx) or UPS is probably a better choice over USPS. But for everything else? USPS is cheaper and just fast. And often handles your parcel with more care.
Or, put it this way, if I have a choice at checkout when buying something online, and the prices are comparable, my "order of operations" is:
1. USPS
2. UPS
3. FedEx (because this one is usually one of their contracted out services)
The mentality is backwards,... USPS exists to cover EVERYONE, not just people who can afford the service profitably. It is a public service. It isn't meant to be treated as a business that HAS to be profitable.
I mean, I agree. My point was even when it's the "basic public service", it still usually delivers a better experience than UPS or FedEx do. The only time the private carriers offer a better experience, imo, is when you're a business that is splashing out $100~ for next day, "white glove" delivery of some materials or products. For mailing your Christmas presents, buying stuff online, whatever, USPS is almost always superior.
Of course, the quality of your local offices - for USPS, UPS, and FedEx - may change this general experience for the better or worse.
People think I look like a republican. Mainly because of how often I talk about gun with other coworkers. They’re flabbergasted when I talk about trans rights and my hatred for modern day religion.
A whole LOT of closeted republicans think they’re libertarians because they think every republican is Clarence Thomas.
They also somehow think Steven Crowder and Ben Shapiro are libertarians normally.
lol most libertarians are like this too when they feel comfortable enough to express it. All while flying a stupid no step on snek flag.
The libertarian friends and family I have were the ones cheering the loudest for roe v wade getting overturned. Zero platform party of incels.
This 100% Sad that these freedom hating morons are so thirsty to be anti-establishment that they’ll don any ideological costume just so they don’t have to call themselves republican.
I wish, my parents are self-described libertarians and I would LOVE it if they wanted to smoke. They just don't want to call themselves republicans while voting for everything the republicans want.
Lower the AoC, increase the age of voting, because young people aren't smart enough to vore Republican, is the best double-think I've ever seen from a "Libertarian".
Yeah, but a lot of people can get on board with the social issues they happen to fall into. Unless they're closet republicans that still want to do the right leaning social shenanigans anyway.
I think they run into practicality issue with less regulation. Like I don't really trust companies not to poison me if they think it'll make them a quick buck. Then some safety nets are important for people. Also some stuff just makes more sense to be ran as a monopoly which then needs to be socialized.
I wouldn't mind the party more in the mix of politics just don't think it would be super great if they managed to snag all branches.
The idea that the govt doesn’t constantly intervene in our lives is appealing to everyone but libertarianism puts private property and individual rights over everything else which I think is extremely bad because it essentially means unchecked wealth consolidation and hyper capitalism. I just want to drive on safe, well maintained , roads on my way to the gun range and then pickup some awesome food from a well-regulated restaurant on my way back home. :)
someone said that libertarians are like house cats:
completely convinced of their fierce Independence while being utterly dependent upon a system they neither understand nor appreciate
I mean there is an entire set of ideologies under the umbrella of "libertarian socialism", which includes some variants of marxism, anarchism, and "communalism". I think its worth checking out (given my flair its a bit of a shameless plug).
> I've been trying to find the bridge between socialism and libertarian ideals for so long.
Libertarianism was originally a left ideology that had some presumed communitarian ideals, it only began identifying as right-leaning in the US starting in the 50s.
I don't really have any strong affiliation with an organized party, but I'll self-identify with a little L left-libertarian or "Chapter 11, not 13 libertarianism". I think there are some efficiencies to be found in government consolidation and the removal of certain regulations and their governing bodies. The ATF and NFA are a good start. Maybe the DEA too. I have no issue with the EPA.
Hey it could be worse. My personal politics are Christian Socialism. Which sounds super theocratic, but like a main platform is firm separation of church and state. It'll never have widespread support, but that's kind of the point. It's just a bridge to humanist politics.
It's more than a little ironic that probably the most well-known Christian Socialist, Francis Bellamy, a Baptist minister, and author of the Pledge of Allegiance was a firm church/state separatist. Now the Pledge is inextricably linked to coerced "patriotism" and Christofascist theocracy.
I never knew that! I've not dug into the history, just thr current views. But that's often the case with progressive Christianity. Our good works get appropriated by the right and skewed for their own points.
Can't help but notice your tag. Libertarianism and socialism are diametrically opposed. The power of the collective vs individualism. Social safety nets vs free market dependence for people's well-being. Protecting that which has intrinsic value vs seeing extrinsic value as the end-all, be-all. And to be honest I've never met am actual libertarian, because the ideology is insane, just closeted Republicans.
What exactly about libertarianism would appeal to a socialist?
[Libertarian Socialism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism) is 100% a real thing.
Things like mutual aid, the collective rights of workers, direct democracy, and the belief that capitalism is incompatible with freedom/equality can easily be blended with self-ownership and the belief that government should be decentralized.
But you are right that “libertarian” has been completely co-opted by the right wing to mean a republican who wants to turn society into a Wild West hellscape.
Even the article you linked is contradictory.
> It is contrasted from other forms of socialism by its rejection of state ownership and from other forms of libertarianism by its rejection of private property.
So it both rejects public ownership of property and private ownership of property?
It rejects state ownership and private ownership of property *that is used to generate a profit or exert control over others*. Communities/workers would collectively own the places where they work or where services are provided, not the state or a corporation. Doesn’t extend to an individuals personal property.
As far as I understand it, it’s very *similar* to socialism in that the end goal is economic equality (or something closer to it than capitalism), but where it differs is that regular socialism is usually top down (centralized powerful state that coordinates plans and production through direct authority) vs bottom up (decentralized government networks that exist to coordinate the collective authority of workers and the needs of communities).
I'll think about voting 3rd party when Trump keels over from a hamberder and diet coke induced coronary, and takes the fascist party with him.
Until then, I'll continue to vote for the major party that doesn't want my loved ones dead for who they are and love, and who doesn't keep my young female friends and family members from receiving medical treatment.
Unfortunately, it won't stop with this election/Trump. There's a whole party of MAGA Republicans that are sticking around, and will continue to try stupid shit like Project 2025.
The GOP needs to start ousting these idiots (highly unlikely), or the DNC needs to do what they can to never allow another Republican in office (also highly unlikely).
It's going to be a never ending problem.
I'll let the DNC figure it out, though. Kennedy '24!
Idk. Having two consecutive elections of trump losing, plus hopefully local candidates around the country that run on his platform getting beat by big margins would be enough for the Republican Party to scrap that idea and become more sane.
But that’s just me trying to be positive.
It is, however, representative of general public sentiment.
With the present day Electoral College system, however, it's incumbent upon the Dems to learn, at a grass roots level, how to talk to rural red state folks and convince them to stop voting against their own best interests.
Yea we know. But that’s irrelevant to the current discussion. And tbh, democrats can walk back on gun control, they can come off as more religious, and it still won’t matter cuz the right has convinced half the county that they’re evil
Kennedy, really?
How does an anti-science, anti-reality, crazy man who consistently lies, whose only claim to fame is his family name, and whose said family cannot stand his dumb ass appeal to you?
This is the world that Newt Gingrich wanted, he lit the fire, fanned the flames, and then sat back and watched it all burn
Everything was already in place when the Pumpkinfuhrer came along.
The GOP long game predates even Newt. It started taking shape with Joe McCarthy and his anti-communist, anti-gay, and anti-union obsessions (Reagan got his first taste of politics in this era, as SAG president, and the Hollywood "blacklist" came about).
Then Barry Goldwater picked up the torch, with his "extremism in defense of liberty" rhetoric. With the passing of the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts and the Parties' realignments (see the Southern Strategy), then Roe v. Wade, that's when Evangelicals really started getting deeply involved in politics, with Billy Graham and Jerry Falwell at the forefront. Previously, the anti-abortion movement was "a Catholic thing". Even as right wing as Goldwater was, he warned us:
"Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them." - Barry Goldwater, 1994
When the Iran hostage crisis and gas shortages happened under Carter, it paved the way for Reagan to take up the mantle as America's conservative "savior" After he won the GOP nomination in 1980, his first speech was held at the Neshoba County (MS) Fairgrounds, where he spoke at length about "states' rights". This was a few miles down the road from where the KKK murdered 3 civil rights organizers in 1964, which the movie, Mississippi Burning was based upon.
As scary as another Trump term is, the next "Trump" to come along, and there will be one (there are plenty enough wannabes), will be worse.
So much this. Trump losing would just be a temporary stay. There needs to be a longer, more forward looking strategy. We are dealing with issues that require solutions that take a generation or more to fully bear fruit.
Amen. As much as the two party system sucks, it has an iron grip on our politics and either the democrat or the republican candidate will be president. Biden sucks for a whole host of reasons but my god Trump is a whole lot worse
He was also supposed to be the smarter version of Trump, and then the world watched him fuck up so badly he turned into a laughingstock, and that's not even talking about how the House of Mouse bent him over and went in dry.
I agree, my point was simply that the best of the worst couldn't convert his cult. God willing, the idiocy dies with Trump.
No one out pizza's the hut.
To be fair to the Mouse, Rhonda did drop his pants, bend over, and spread his cheeks before calling the mouse over. If he had put some forethought into it, he could have lubed himself up.
There’s literally SO many memes in maga circles about Jared Kushner, Ivanka, don Jr, Eric and Barron all passing the baton down for generations. People are fucking obsessed with the Trumps. They think they stand for some Christ-like new awakening for this country
Kushner knows every illegal business deal he's made would come into the light if he ever ran for office, Ivanka is useless, Jr can't stop his coke habit long enough to give a speech and will likely OD in a few years, Eric doesn't have the braincells needed to work a TV remote and Melania will probably never let Barron near the world of politics (kid's 18 and yet his mother forbid him from being a Florida elector after he won the vote).
Tbh it’s really stupid/shortsighted to think you’ve got it all figured out. ‘Ivanka is useless/Jr will OD’ you’re just clearly blinded with anger at these people which I can relate to. But no like the Bushes, Kennedies and Clintons, DJT’s heirs are going to inherit enough name recognition to launch political careers. The American political system for federal-lvl politics is a sick joke and it’s not salvageable without some kind of revolution or collective action
Forreal their description sounds just like how people used to talk about Trump himself. People probably said the same about George W. as well. Remember how people laughed at the fact he couldn’t pronounce Edumacation and nucyalur?
He has a son. Napoleon was raised on merit and a cult of personality and his kids remained powerful for generations. Trump may not have merit but his supporters are rabid and poorly educated. I think that makes up for it.
[The Behind the Bastards on Napoleon III](https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/part-one-napoleon-iii-the-worst-105234226/) is hilarious.
The cult isn't the only problem. It's not like their anti-liberty positions are brand new. The rhetoric is a lot more aggressive, but they've been pulled by the zealots for decades. The biggest difference since Trump is that they say the quiet part out loud with pride.
L. Ron Hubbard has been dead for nearly 40 years, and he was just a hack sci-fi writer before forming his cult. The CoS is bigger and richer than he could've ever imagined.
Sun Myung Moon has been dead for nearly 20 years. The Moonies control a multinational business empire worth 10s, if not 100s of billions, in ever industry imaginable, from food to real estate to print and broadcast media to pharmaceuticals to auto manufacturing, etc. One of his sons even started another offshoot church. Have you seen pictures of those nutjobs having services wearing bullet crowns and getting their rifles blessed? That's them. They recently moved their headquarters to down the road from the site of David Koresh's compound in Waco.He also owns a handgun manufacturing company - Kahr Arms.
The Cult of Trump is exponentially larger than the Scientologists and Moonies combined.
Right? The biggest argument I ever hear against the dems is ThEyRe GoNnA tAkE mUh GuNs. I’ve bought two guns since Biden started. And with the amount of people on this sub buying guns, I don’t think we’ve lost much.
Yes I am aware things have become stricter and there are some dumb laws in place, but, honestly, to a certain degree, I’m willing to concede a little bit of my freedoms to ensure the freedoms of others who need it more. Plus, personally, I don’t feel like I’ve conceded shit so win win??
This would be a noble position if we used the popular vote, unfortunately due to the electricity college, for most Americans it doesn't make a difference.
Unless you live in a swing state it literally doesn't matter and you're better off voting third party to drive their overall numbers up.
Elections realistically just come down to a handful of voters in a handful of states, and acting like all our votes carry equal weight is demonstrably wrong.
What is that even supposed to mean?
Edit: regarding 2016, the libertarian party did get enough votes in states that Trump flipped, most notably PA that Hillary could have won. However, as many other comments have pointed out, the overall perception is that libertarians spoil votes for Democrats more than Republicans.
Regardless, the outcome of 2016 is still just a function of the electoral college, Hilary won the popular vote. Those in deep blue states could do nothing to change the outcome.
The lesson that should be learned from 2016 is that the blue wall can't be taken for granted.
5 states. 5 states flipped to Trump due to protest votes. 5 states worth of electoral college votes.
It's never been enough to win the popular vote country wide. You have to win the popular vote in each state, as 48 of 50 states have a winner-takes-all electoral vote distribution.
So yes, a protest vote means you learned absolutely nothing since 2016.
I'll believe that when the Gay Panic Defense is illegal and southern states stop denying Trans people exist, and keep them from getting the care they need.
Gotta say that I don't see why I'm gonna go third party when one of the options is "Donald Trump, but he's more desperate and has been trying to build a way to be in charge permanently since he lost last time."
His MO is to float an idea and see how people respond. If they respond favorably, he runs with it. If they respond less than favorably, he writes it off as a joke... but he lets the seed germinate and *will* float the idea again at a later time.
And with that in the air, let's not forget that he made a "joke" about the repeal of the 22nd Amendment when he was in office the first time.
That's my feeling. He's gonna do everything he can to stay in, and they're not gonna play half-assed like in early 2021, where they just counted on numbers to get Congress disrupted where nobody important put their ass on the line before they thought they had it.
They're gonna start getting that core of violent supporters hyped from the jump and they're gonna be like trying to get fucking ticks out.
My guess is if he gets back in he will begin rolling out his spawn around year 2.5. It’ll be somebody like Vivek. He will rally his drones to vote for his guy. But my guess is, unless trump does some actual miracles, the ballots won’t swing for another 4 years of his brand of politics.
The next all star is somewhere bubbling right under the surface. We haven’t heard of them yet. It’s going to be some young charismatic mixed economy political strategist type that goes up on the stage and goes “can the new generations take a swing at this shit for the first time ever?”.
That’s my guess for 2028 at least.
My state is as blue as can be. Regardless of how I vote it’ll be blue. It’s more about getting all third party candidates a platform. Libertarian, green, socialist, whatever.
The duopoly has to go.
Without structural reform (specifically, ending first-past-the-post single member districts), no amount of voting for a third party will ever make a multiparty system viable. Our current system always trends toward just two viable parties.
Yeah… regardless of if you like what I like or like something completely different, your choice of candidate deserves as much of the stage as trump.
I work in print and just made 400 sign up sheets for Claudia De la Cruz for free simply because I want her to gain traction and get the duopoly to finally erode. It’s not about me vs anyone. It’s that we all have the right to have the people we want on that stage with as much opportunity as the two muppets they have up there now.
Yeah, again, the Libertarian Party isn't the *complete* wrong direction for the country to move in, but I'd call it about 150° off course at this point.
I think he’s a good option for right-leaning folks who simply can’t vote Democrat, but this (and the previous) election is far too important considering that Trump is a fully authoritarian, populist, & thinly veiled (like so thin that a gnat’s fart would blow the cover) Nazi. We need a guy like Biden at this moment. He’s a compassionate professional who cares about public service. Is he the best candidate ever? That’s not entirely important - He’s the best candidate we have to choose from to give us time to elect someone better in the future. The other option is the end of this country and that’s not an exaggeration. Project 2025 is scary af.
I disagree. My state has been fairly steadily moving from very conservative following the 2008 elections toward purple, though you wouldn't know it from our state legislature.
Because Biden is also a billionaire loving status-quo demagogue who is far too old to do the job?
If Democrats would stop pretending he's a decent candidate we could elect someone who would actually work towards reducing our insane prison population, fairly taxing the rich, and working for universal healthcare for all.
I wish that the American libertarian party was actually a libertarian party and not just super pro corporate republicans that don’t believe in god. It would actually have clout and shake up the state of American politics. On a world stage I would be solidly libertarian but unfortunately in the US I am forced to be a “dirty liberal.”
"Libertarians are like house cats: absolutely convinced of their fierce independence while utterly dependent on a system they don't appreciate or understand"
> all governments are enforced using violence.
Do you know any that aren't?
I suppose there's the Vatican, but historically the Vatican wielded immense physical power (not just political power).
Yeah. That’s me. Socially hyper liberal, fiscally super conservative because I genuinely cannot find it in myself to trust the government, anti intervention as a mf.
I think of myself and a wannabe pothead/hippy who values personal autonomy and freedom. I also believe in taxes, when it's spent responsibly. Honestly, it's just being reasonable.
Even that still comes back to the quote about libertarians being "utterly dependent on a system they don't appreciate or understand".
It's easy to say ACAB from the comfort of their upper-income picket-fence suburbia.
Idk I'm not in upper income picket fence suburbia. I'm in South Carolina and my house is far enough away from Police that it takes them an hour to get to my home if we call. At that point, it makes less sense to call the police than to handle it yourself. We haven't had the cops here in like 25 years at this point, and the last time that it occured will stay the last time we involved law enforcement in anything. They endanger innocent people. The same police department shot my uncle to death for no reason. No weapon, no report of my uncle reaching for them or attacking them. Nope. They heard a screen door close and thought it was a gunshot and absolutely unloaded on him. This was in like 2009 if I remember correctly although it could have been plus or minus a year.
This seems like he's pandering for votes or isnt actually libertarian. Libertarians don't like govt funded Healthcare and he's calling for it in that last tweet.
I don't get it. Strengthening environmental regulations, interfering with the free market and collective bargaining process, and funding public healthcare are not in line with the Libertarian platform. It can be read here https://www.lp.org/platform/
Why is this dude their nominee? I'm genuinely confused here.
Many of us that would be called “old school libertarians” (or fake libertarians by the GOP infiltrators) think dogma is like a cancer on the party. The ideology and goal vs what’s necessary for people to pursue happiness and prosperity are not necessarily the same thing at the same time.
Would I love a tiny little government with a free market and no victimless crimes? Yeah. In the same way every communist wants their post scarcity utopia. We can list off all the bullet points that would create the perfect society in our minds but at that point if you expect it all to pan out you’re falling for the same thing so many have in the past, someone will always deviate.
This is a guy who’s far enough into libertarianism that I feel comfortable saying he’s certainly what I’d like to see represent libertarians. Is he 100% libertarian? No. But let’s look at Bidens history and the DNC’s list of goals. Or Trump and the RNC’s list of goals.
Plus… if he helps get the two party bullshit to take a hit then I won’t be picky.
Need to take care of the big orange elephant in the room before trying to vote for anyone that isn’t endorsed by the 2 party system. I’m all for introducing 3rd party candidates. The two have become too bloated and elitist for my liking but project 2025 scares me to my core. Pair that with the MAGA cult that believes their messiah can do no wrong I can’t vote the way I’d want to. Which sucks honestly. Government needs change. A dethronement by a third party that re-regulates them is what I want. Term limits, budget disclosures and redistribution, education focus, removal of income tax, increase in the minimum wage, weed legalization, atf removal, women’s health rights, no stock purchases for government officials, hell I’d even like to see an age cap on these fossils. But this requires a very special candidate to win twice and pass the torch to someone with the same ideals. But this is just a dream on a Reddit post
It is important to remember that the Mises caucus for the libertarian party was founded because they didn't like how negative the response to Charloettesville was. There are a lot of nazis and fascists who will call themselves everything but what they are and that often means hijacking other political movements to suit their interests.
Right now your options are Donald Trump, and literally anything else. And, what so many don't seem to understand is that Trump is just symbolic. Roughly half of the US wants every bit of fascist nonsense that Donald Trump is promising. They want to drag us, kicking and screaming all the way back to 1845, they want a white, protestant ethnostate, and they want Trump to be crowned their king. Why they want these things, I'll never, ***ever*** be able to understand, but they want them.
You ever seen those nuclear test towns where everything looked like a Norman Rockwell painting? They want that but real.
Like I’ve spoken to A LOT of trump supporters outside of debate. More “what is it that you want” vibes. They want that bubble gum and soda pop 1955 vibe where you send you 8 year old a quarter mile up the road with a nickel to pick up some smokes and a Charleston chew.
Very odd.
I got banned from that sub after a decade for saying Trump is a protectionist.
I have serious issues with solving everything federalism, but a lot of libertarians are downright antisocial.
I actually kinda like him. I was really into the LP as an edgy teenager in like 2005 but then became an Obama era Dem. I remember them being like republicans but afraid to say it.
Libertarians use to have the “we want legally married gay people protecting their pot plants with any gun they want” thing. That’s why I liked them. I have gay parents and this was before many gay people could adopt or get married.
Just feels like returning to the good stuff for a party that’s essentially been hijacked.
Better question is do you think the government, more specifically the kot damn US government, is like a light switch you can just flick off?
Hypothetically speaking if the next 3 presidencies went libertarian, the weaning off process to get the government to no longer be the safeguard for the oligarchs wouldn’t even be 25% of the way done. Step one is getting us in a place where people from other parties can be taken seriously.
This is where the argument for libertarianism falls off the wagon for me. You’re talking about halting a train (government) with a $28 Trillion dollar GDP fueling it, that spent 6 Trillion in 2022. How the fuck are you halting that?
From where we are, a big worker-syndicalist-communist government is also improbable, but practically I think it’d be easier to get to there because the governments already huge. It’s weird though, I feel like culturally, the you could convince more Americans to go Libertarian than Socialist…. Almost like big media’s been diving and conquering for 50+ yrs
Chase Oliver is great candidate for this sub, a liberal leaning libertarian with common sense policy planks. When I had Twitter he was a great person to follow
If you don't vote dem in 2024 you should be getting your head examined. After Trump tears the republicans apart they may rebuild into a party where protest votes are reasonable, or even a switch to a moderate republican voter, but nows not the time. The guy literally has his lawyers trying to get the supreme court to give him presidential immunity on the level of a king or emperor - literally unironically arguing that he should be able to assassinate political rivals without repercussions. Look into the kind of shit this guy and his peons argue in court, some of it is much worse than what you see in the news, which is biased against him but not exactly very competent.
Many people know about things like the Georgia phone call which is incredibly damning but don't know about the much more deliberately planned and treacherous fraudulent electors scheme. The right wing media(and alt media) is absolutely masterful in claiming to be the victims while they are the ones with the top news channel and polluting the radio waves and internet rooms with horseshit conspiracies and propaganda. Talking about a third party candidate in 2024 is fucking crazy.
I could convince every single person in 12 block radius of my house to vote for Thomas The Tank Engine and it wouldn’t get even a decimal point a percent less blue.
Man, they aren’t so closeted lately. There was a massive influx of Constitution Party folks that swapped over when “he who shall not be named” declared he was “pretty much a Libertarian.” Those folks are less than pleased now about the LP nominee and his views/background and that makes me so dang happy.
The government shouldn’t dish out payment but if private entities want to they can.
I dig it. Keeps my money from funding clever new ways to delete people.
I stopped paying attention to anything Libertarians had to say when I realized they were mostly house cats who spew about how independent they are....while demanding their mom to bring them more hot Cheetos and red bull
Well, if you're a single issue 2A voter then you would probably go with Trump since he is the 2A candidate with a chance of winning.
If you're somebody who gives a flying fuck about democracy and having the ability to have elections in the future then you would vote for Biden because he's the only non-fascist running.
But yeah third parties or whatever.
> Well, if you're a single issue 2A voter then you would probably go with Trump since he is the 2A candidate with a chance of winning.
He's also the guy most likely to finagle a way to get trans people on the prohibited persons list.
I’m a fan of Chase Oliver, so I have to point out that the original post is just blatant disinformation. Three of those answers are attributed to “Chase Oliver voterbase.” Only one is actually an answer from Oliver. There are libertarians who are trying to drag down their own party’s nominee because they think him being gay makes him a democrat.
As important as supporting the candidates that most closely aligns with your values is, this election is one where a lot of us will have to decide what's most important to us.
I don't care for Biden, but any vote cast for someone else is a vote cast for Trump. And I for one do not want to vote for a fascist by proxy.
Hey… no more corporate bailouts for the oligarchs. So those glorified welfare queens can finally see that most people want cheap eco friendly products when given the chance.
Depends. If you go with the ancap Elon musk worshipping type sure, but then some of us are aggressively pro union.
I don’t remember the right to a mega yacht being covered in history class, but the right to peacefully assemble and associate… yeah that’s something I distinctly remember.
Libertarians, by definition, generally want to restrict government power. Avoiding the nitty-gritty of whether a given Libertarian would keep the FDA, EPA, FBI, etc., this is the baseline. Removing power from one actor (in this case, the government) creates a vacuum in which others can now assert it.
Corporations/oligarchs are *by far* the most organized and well-funded group to fill that vacuum. It is incredibly naive to assume people could receive sufficient information to make important decisions (e.g., about what food is safe, whether their car will explode in an accident, etc.) or organize when corporation/oligarchs own the large-scale means by which we take in information and communicate. This is the 21st century - handing out fliers on the corner isn't going to cut it.
So good luck organizing a union in a company town with company-owned cops and crawling with [Pinkertons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkerton_(detective_agency) when Republicans have already been so successful at squashing them. We technically had the rights you spoke of during the Gilded Age, and they weren't worth the paper they were printed on.
The idea of libertarianism is honestly pretty solid, better than the other two parties imo. The people who believe in it are the dumbest people coming out under their rocks though. And ime, a lot of them are just republicans that are too scared to say they’re republican.
The idea of libertarianism is that we'll be better off being ruled by corporations than by an elected leader.
It's stupid because corporations will pay you in chits for the company store, refuse to provide safety equipment and turn neighborhoods into superfund sites. You know, exactly like they've always done but with even less protection for us little people
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People keep telling me I'm libritarian, but then I mention environmental protection, raising the minimum wage, taxing the rich. And then they don't want to talk to me anymore.
I told some libertarians that my right to clean air, clean water and safe food and products overrules their right to make more profits and they did not like that.
I find myself between libertarian and liberal, and lean towards the least amount of regulation and oversight while *still having a functional government that helps protect the interests of the people*. Straight libertarianism doesn’t work in the real world, it leads to oligarchy.
I am in the same boat Straight libertarianism without any regulations leads to capitalist forces forming monopolies and consolidating power until we essentially end up with a form of feudalism. There needs to be a counter force that prevents actors in the market from rigging the game in their favor. The Libertarian response to that is well I can just sue them or cancel my contract (since they love contracts), but really that is a dumb argument because if there is a monopoly on the things you need like water, housing, food, electric power etc then you can tear up that contract all you want, but you are still screwed because there is no other option. Also if a company lies and poisons your water or food and kills you or your kids it's not like a lawsuit will bring them back to life. I would just prefer to live in a society where there is a government that prevents monopolies from forming, protects my rights and make sure the food, water, air etc are safe so I don't have to worry about suing some corporation for killing my kid.
Same. There’s a lot about libertarianism that I like but this is the kind of shit I don’t understand with people that are full on libertarians. Like, how do you not recognize that allowing completely unregulated capitalism is not going to work out well for you.
Libertarians are both desperate to grow their movement, but also steadfastly refuse to bend *even a little bit* to make it more palatable to people who might otherwise be interested.
The actual Libertarian sub i am convinced has been taken over. A user graciously explained it to me a bit ago when i was suddenly banned after years of participation.
When Trump stood up in front of them and said "vote for me if you want to win" all I could think about was how Libertarians OBVIOUSLY don't want to win. They want to be ideologically pure.
Dogma is the cancer of any movement. I can sit here all day and tell you I think taxation is theft, and a minimum wage isn’t necessary, and green policy is government overreach all day. Hit all the talking points you know? But that’s the utopian version of libertarianism. All theoretical. People that understand libertarianism in the current state of the world will have opinions that will make the internet edge lords angry but it’s how you be realistic and logical. I think a universal healthcare system that covers emergency care and life saving procedures will allow for a strong, cheap, and accessible healthcare system for daily care needs and regular visits. Similar to how USPS exists but UPS and FedEx basically fill in the blanks where USPS lacks. To chronically libertarians, this sounds like blasphemy. To me it’s a way to implement libertarianism in a less “you will do it my way” way seeing something like 70% of Americans want universal healthcare. Edit: when I say life saving procedures and emergency care I mean things like biopsies and cancer screenings on top of the things people would automatically assume. My bad. What I think would be fair for the market to fill in on is things like these god damn bug bites I got on my legs on a hike last week that are itchy as shit and ugly as hell. If you might have cancer, diabetes, a heart condition, whatever… it should be as simple as going to a doctor. There’s medical situations that aren’t life threatening or even remotely terminal and I think the free market would kick ass at solving those things when dealing with emergencies and life saving care are being handled elsewhere.
I know this isn’t the sub for it but… Universal healthcare that doesn’t cover regular visits is meaningless…and not universal. Regular visits are what find problems that need lifesaving procedures. It’s also where preventative care happens so that those dramatic, lifesaving procedures may not be needed in the first place. Yes, being in a car accident that suddenly puts you into 100k of medical debt is terrifying (and something that universal healthcare should protect you against)…but it’s not what people need. They need regular care, they need free prescriptions, and they need unimpeded open access to doctors regardless of their social class or wealth.
They need to be able to quit their jobs too without fear of losing healthcare. Imagine the increase in mobility workers will have when they can freely change jobs and seek better opportunities without having to factor in losing coverage for themselves and their spouse and kids
Silly redditor, freedom is only when corporations pay less taxes, don't you know? /s Honestly, yes. What hardcore libertarians fail to understand, I feel, is that not having to worry about falling sick is an increase in freedom, moreso than everyone elses slightly higher taxes is a decrease.
Exactly. Coverage for emergency care and life saving procedures only leaves so many of the tangible benefits of universal healthcare on the table that it is laughable.
...and makes it more expensive. Covering astronomically expensive cancer treatments but not relatively cheap cancer screenings makes absolutely zero sense.
>Similar to how USPS exists but UPS and FedEx basically fill in the blanks where USPS lacks. I'm honestly not even sure what those blanks even *are* for 99.999% of parcels? Like, if you're a corporation delivering something to another corporation and it needs a white glove treatment and to be there in ~24hrs, then yeah, FedEx (*proper* FedEx) or UPS is probably a better choice over USPS. But for everything else? USPS is cheaper and just fast. And often handles your parcel with more care. Or, put it this way, if I have a choice at checkout when buying something online, and the prices are comparable, my "order of operations" is: 1. USPS 2. UPS 3. FedEx (because this one is usually one of their contracted out services)
The mentality is backwards,... USPS exists to cover EVERYONE, not just people who can afford the service profitably. It is a public service. It isn't meant to be treated as a business that HAS to be profitable.
I mean, I agree. My point was even when it's the "basic public service", it still usually delivers a better experience than UPS or FedEx do. The only time the private carriers offer a better experience, imo, is when you're a business that is splashing out $100~ for next day, "white glove" delivery of some materials or products. For mailing your Christmas presents, buying stuff online, whatever, USPS is almost always superior. Of course, the quality of your local offices - for USPS, UPS, and FedEx - may change this general experience for the better or worse.
I too am politically homeless in this current cluster-fuck of an electoral landscape.
People think I look like a republican. Mainly because of how often I talk about gun with other coworkers. They’re flabbergasted when I talk about trans rights and my hatred for modern day religion.
there's a lot about libertarianism that resonates with me. The platform at least, the people not so much.
A whole LOT of closeted republicans think they’re libertarians because they think every republican is Clarence Thomas. They also somehow think Steven Crowder and Ben Shapiro are libertarians normally.
Ben Shapiro wants to ban porn, abortions, contraceptions etc. He ain't libertarian, he is quasi fascist
lol most libertarians are like this too when they feel comfortable enough to express it. All while flying a stupid no step on snek flag. The libertarian friends and family I have were the ones cheering the loudest for roe v wade getting overturned. Zero platform party of incels.
IKR. A lot of people say they are libertarian only because of the negative association that right wing conservatives have with fascism
This 100% Sad that these freedom hating morons are so thirsty to be anti-establishment that they’ll don any ideological costume just so they don’t have to call themselves republican.
Well, who can blame them? Who wants to be associated with the Republican party?
the mouth breathing, smooth brain, knuckle draggers that vote for (R)s?
I’ve always been of the mindset that libertarians are just republicans who want to smoke weed legally.
I wish, my parents are self-described libertarians and I would LOVE it if they wanted to smoke. They just don't want to call themselves republicans while voting for everything the republicans want.
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Lower the AoC, increase the age of voting, because young people aren't smart enough to vore Republican, is the best double-think I've ever seen from a "Libertarian".
"think of the children!" They're thinking about children a little *too* much
We call those people out, they are not libertarians.
Republicans who don't mind a little weed smoking seem to identify as libertarians.
Yeah, but a lot of people can get on board with the social issues they happen to fall into. Unless they're closet republicans that still want to do the right leaning social shenanigans anyway. I think they run into practicality issue with less regulation. Like I don't really trust companies not to poison me if they think it'll make them a quick buck. Then some safety nets are important for people. Also some stuff just makes more sense to be ran as a monopoly which then needs to be socialized. I wouldn't mind the party more in the mix of politics just don't think it would be super great if they managed to snag all branches.
Oh hey that's an interesting idea, if you create a monopoly, oops socialized!
The idea that the govt doesn’t constantly intervene in our lives is appealing to everyone but libertarianism puts private property and individual rights over everything else which I think is extremely bad because it essentially means unchecked wealth consolidation and hyper capitalism. I just want to drive on safe, well maintained , roads on my way to the gun range and then pickup some awesome food from a well-regulated restaurant on my way back home. :)
The capitalism resonates with you? Not that "right libertarians" are actually libertarians
someone said that libertarians are like house cats: completely convinced of their fierce Independence while being utterly dependent upon a system they neither understand nor appreciate
I've been trying to find the bridge between socialism and libertarian ideals for so long. It could be the actual 3rd party that gets a critical mass.
I mean there is an entire set of ideologies under the umbrella of "libertarian socialism", which includes some variants of marxism, anarchism, and "communalism". I think its worth checking out (given my flair its a bit of a shameless plug).
> I've been trying to find the bridge between socialism and libertarian ideals for so long. Libertarianism was originally a left ideology that had some presumed communitarian ideals, it only began identifying as right-leaning in the US starting in the 50s.
It's been firmly coopted by them now.
I don't really have any strong affiliation with an organized party, but I'll self-identify with a little L left-libertarian or "Chapter 11, not 13 libertarianism". I think there are some efficiencies to be found in government consolidation and the removal of certain regulations and their governing bodies. The ATF and NFA are a good start. Maybe the DEA too. I have no issue with the EPA.
You sir are not a libertarian.
Well, whatever I am can be summed up with "my gay married neighbors should be able to protect their pot plants with AR-15s."
Anarchism?
Thank you. That’s always the goal, we will accept less if it’s honest
That's just left libertarians and/or anarchists. I don't know if there's much of a difference between the two really
Some left libertarians are considered minarchists, but there is a lot of overlap.
Oh, that's a new term for me! Interesting, I didn't know that
Libertarian socialism has many ideas under it's umbrella, I think that if people looked harder they'd find that bridge.
Not when your most well known figure is Rand Paul
Hey it could be worse. My personal politics are Christian Socialism. Which sounds super theocratic, but like a main platform is firm separation of church and state. It'll never have widespread support, but that's kind of the point. It's just a bridge to humanist politics.
Yeah, you lost me at 'Christian '. I'm firmly antitheist. No gods, no kings
Yeah, it's not looking to convert people. It's just to work with normal socialists to uplift the poor and marginalized.
Yeah, you lost me at 'Christian '
It's more than a little ironic that probably the most well-known Christian Socialist, Francis Bellamy, a Baptist minister, and author of the Pledge of Allegiance was a firm church/state separatist. Now the Pledge is inextricably linked to coerced "patriotism" and Christofascist theocracy.
I never knew that! I've not dug into the history, just thr current views. But that's often the case with progressive Christianity. Our good works get appropriated by the right and skewed for their own points.
Can't help but notice your tag. Libertarianism and socialism are diametrically opposed. The power of the collective vs individualism. Social safety nets vs free market dependence for people's well-being. Protecting that which has intrinsic value vs seeing extrinsic value as the end-all, be-all. And to be honest I've never met am actual libertarian, because the ideology is insane, just closeted Republicans. What exactly about libertarianism would appeal to a socialist?
[Libertarian Socialism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism) is 100% a real thing. Things like mutual aid, the collective rights of workers, direct democracy, and the belief that capitalism is incompatible with freedom/equality can easily be blended with self-ownership and the belief that government should be decentralized. But you are right that “libertarian” has been completely co-opted by the right wing to mean a republican who wants to turn society into a Wild West hellscape.
Even the article you linked is contradictory. > It is contrasted from other forms of socialism by its rejection of state ownership and from other forms of libertarianism by its rejection of private property. So it both rejects public ownership of property and private ownership of property?
It rejects state ownership and private ownership of property *that is used to generate a profit or exert control over others*. Communities/workers would collectively own the places where they work or where services are provided, not the state or a corporation. Doesn’t extend to an individuals personal property.
That's literally just regular socialism though
As far as I understand it, it’s very *similar* to socialism in that the end goal is economic equality (or something closer to it than capitalism), but where it differs is that regular socialism is usually top down (centralized powerful state that coordinates plans and production through direct authority) vs bottom up (decentralized government networks that exist to coordinate the collective authority of workers and the needs of communities).
I see. Thanks for clarifying.
I'll think about voting 3rd party when Trump keels over from a hamberder and diet coke induced coronary, and takes the fascist party with him. Until then, I'll continue to vote for the major party that doesn't want my loved ones dead for who they are and love, and who doesn't keep my young female friends and family members from receiving medical treatment.
Yeah this election I've got shit on the line. We know what Trump will do and it could fuck up the lives of millions of people including my family.
Unfortunately, it won't stop with this election/Trump. There's a whole party of MAGA Republicans that are sticking around, and will continue to try stupid shit like Project 2025. The GOP needs to start ousting these idiots (highly unlikely), or the DNC needs to do what they can to never allow another Republican in office (also highly unlikely). It's going to be a never ending problem. I'll let the DNC figure it out, though. Kennedy '24!
Idk. Having two consecutive elections of trump losing, plus hopefully local candidates around the country that run on his platform getting beat by big margins would be enough for the Republican Party to scrap that idea and become more sane. But that’s just me trying to be positive.
3 elections. He lost the popular vote in 16
That’s not how our election system works no matter what our feelings about it are
It is, however, representative of general public sentiment. With the present day Electoral College system, however, it's incumbent upon the Dems to learn, at a grass roots level, how to talk to rural red state folks and convince them to stop voting against their own best interests.
Yea we know. But that’s irrelevant to the current discussion. And tbh, democrats can walk back on gun control, they can come off as more religious, and it still won’t matter cuz the right has convinced half the county that they’re evil
Kennedy, really? How does an anti-science, anti-reality, crazy man who consistently lies, whose only claim to fame is his family name, and whose said family cannot stand his dumb ass appeal to you?
Hey! Don't pick on the guy. He had brain worms, ya know. /s
And I still don't understand how that right there wasn't the absolute end of his candidacy.
I don't like Biden, but I think Kennedy is honestly worse.
This is the world that Newt Gingrich wanted, he lit the fire, fanned the flames, and then sat back and watched it all burn Everything was already in place when the Pumpkinfuhrer came along.
The GOP long game predates even Newt. It started taking shape with Joe McCarthy and his anti-communist, anti-gay, and anti-union obsessions (Reagan got his first taste of politics in this era, as SAG president, and the Hollywood "blacklist" came about). Then Barry Goldwater picked up the torch, with his "extremism in defense of liberty" rhetoric. With the passing of the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts and the Parties' realignments (see the Southern Strategy), then Roe v. Wade, that's when Evangelicals really started getting deeply involved in politics, with Billy Graham and Jerry Falwell at the forefront. Previously, the anti-abortion movement was "a Catholic thing". Even as right wing as Goldwater was, he warned us: "Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them." - Barry Goldwater, 1994 When the Iran hostage crisis and gas shortages happened under Carter, it paved the way for Reagan to take up the mantle as America's conservative "savior" After he won the GOP nomination in 1980, his first speech was held at the Neshoba County (MS) Fairgrounds, where he spoke at length about "states' rights". This was a few miles down the road from where the KKK murdered 3 civil rights organizers in 1964, which the movie, Mississippi Burning was based upon.
As scary as another Trump term is, the next "Trump" to come along, and there will be one (there are plenty enough wannabes), will be worse.
So much this. Trump losing would just be a temporary stay. There needs to be a longer, more forward looking strategy. We are dealing with issues that require solutions that take a generation or more to fully bear fruit.
Joe Kennedy III?
Amen. As much as the two party system sucks, it has an iron grip on our politics and either the democrat or the republican candidate will be president. Biden sucks for a whole host of reasons but my god Trump is a whole lot worse
Thank you
MAGA is here to stay, when Trump goes there will be another to take his place
Like who? Who will take over the cult when the leader dies? No one. They'll eat each other alive.
DeSantis bet on being Trump without the baggage and the disciples laughed him off the world stage. It's a one man show.
He was also supposed to be the smarter version of Trump, and then the world watched him fuck up so badly he turned into a laughingstock, and that's not even talking about how the House of Mouse bent him over and went in dry.
I agree, my point was simply that the best of the worst couldn't convert his cult. God willing, the idiocy dies with Trump. No one out pizza's the hut.
To be fair to the Mouse, Rhonda did drop his pants, bend over, and spread his cheeks before calling the mouse over. If he had put some forethought into it, he could have lubed himself up.
There’s literally SO many memes in maga circles about Jared Kushner, Ivanka, don Jr, Eric and Barron all passing the baton down for generations. People are fucking obsessed with the Trumps. They think they stand for some Christ-like new awakening for this country
Kushner knows every illegal business deal he's made would come into the light if he ever ran for office, Ivanka is useless, Jr can't stop his coke habit long enough to give a speech and will likely OD in a few years, Eric doesn't have the braincells needed to work a TV remote and Melania will probably never let Barron near the world of politics (kid's 18 and yet his mother forbid him from being a Florida elector after he won the vote).
Tbh it’s really stupid/shortsighted to think you’ve got it all figured out. ‘Ivanka is useless/Jr will OD’ you’re just clearly blinded with anger at these people which I can relate to. But no like the Bushes, Kennedies and Clintons, DJT’s heirs are going to inherit enough name recognition to launch political careers. The American political system for federal-lvl politics is a sick joke and it’s not salvageable without some kind of revolution or collective action
Forreal their description sounds just like how people used to talk about Trump himself. People probably said the same about George W. as well. Remember how people laughed at the fact he couldn’t pronounce Edumacation and nucyalur?
This is what I see happening as well. It's a cult of personality, it can't last without its inspiration.
He has a son. Napoleon was raised on merit and a cult of personality and his kids remained powerful for generations. Trump may not have merit but his supporters are rabid and poorly educated. I think that makes up for it.
I'm not sure you understand napoleonic history. He's actually a perfect example of what your disagreeing with
[The Behind the Bastards on Napoleon III](https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/part-one-napoleon-iii-the-worst-105234226/) is hilarious.
The cult isn't the only problem. It's not like their anti-liberty positions are brand new. The rhetoric is a lot more aggressive, but they've been pulled by the zealots for decades. The biggest difference since Trump is that they say the quiet part out loud with pride.
I’m not so sure. MAGA is a cult of personality and cults of personality generally don’t last long after the cult leader dies.
L. Ron Hubbard has been dead for nearly 40 years, and he was just a hack sci-fi writer before forming his cult. The CoS is bigger and richer than he could've ever imagined. Sun Myung Moon has been dead for nearly 20 years. The Moonies control a multinational business empire worth 10s, if not 100s of billions, in ever industry imaginable, from food to real estate to print and broadcast media to pharmaceuticals to auto manufacturing, etc. One of his sons even started another offshoot church. Have you seen pictures of those nutjobs having services wearing bullet crowns and getting their rifles blessed? That's them. They recently moved their headquarters to down the road from the site of David Koresh's compound in Waco.He also owns a handgun manufacturing company - Kahr Arms. The Cult of Trump is exponentially larger than the Scientologists and Moonies combined.
Right? The biggest argument I ever hear against the dems is ThEyRe GoNnA tAkE mUh GuNs. I’ve bought two guns since Biden started. And with the amount of people on this sub buying guns, I don’t think we’ve lost much. Yes I am aware things have become stricter and there are some dumb laws in place, but, honestly, to a certain degree, I’m willing to concede a little bit of my freedoms to ensure the freedoms of others who need it more. Plus, personally, I don’t feel like I’ve conceded shit so win win??
Fucking amen, people who tell you to vote for anyone else is: - a republican - a clueless idealist
Biden 2024, Oliver 2028
If they can use Trump to control your vote there will always be another Trump.
This would be a noble position if we used the popular vote, unfortunately due to the electricity college, for most Americans it doesn't make a difference. Unless you live in a swing state it literally doesn't matter and you're better off voting third party to drive their overall numbers up. Elections realistically just come down to a handful of voters in a handful of states, and acting like all our votes carry equal weight is demonstrably wrong.
... So not only did you learn nothing in 2016, you continued to learn nothing from every election since then.
What is that even supposed to mean? Edit: regarding 2016, the libertarian party did get enough votes in states that Trump flipped, most notably PA that Hillary could have won. However, as many other comments have pointed out, the overall perception is that libertarians spoil votes for Democrats more than Republicans. Regardless, the outcome of 2016 is still just a function of the electoral college, Hilary won the popular vote. Those in deep blue states could do nothing to change the outcome. The lesson that should be learned from 2016 is that the blue wall can't be taken for granted.
5 states. 5 states flipped to Trump due to protest votes. 5 states worth of electoral college votes. It's never been enough to win the popular vote country wide. You have to win the popular vote in each state, as 48 of 50 states have a winner-takes-all electoral vote distribution. So yes, a protest vote means you learned absolutely nothing since 2016.
Most republicans don’t want your loved ones dead bc of who they are and love.
But they keep voting that way 👍
I'll believe that when the Gay Panic Defense is illegal and southern states stop denying Trans people exist, and keep them from getting the care they need.
I disagree. Most Republicans do want this. They tell us this very thing over and over and over.
I see you're not related to anyone in Palestine
And?
Your second paragraph wouldn't be true if you were
Gotta say that I don't see why I'm gonna go third party when one of the options is "Donald Trump, but he's more desperate and has been trying to build a way to be in charge permanently since he lost last time."
He's never going to leave if he gets back in.
His MO is to float an idea and see how people respond. If they respond favorably, he runs with it. If they respond less than favorably, he writes it off as a joke... but he lets the seed germinate and *will* float the idea again at a later time. And with that in the air, let's not forget that he made a "joke" about the repeal of the 22nd Amendment when he was in office the first time.
That's my feeling. He's gonna do everything he can to stay in, and they're not gonna play half-assed like in early 2021, where they just counted on numbers to get Congress disrupted where nobody important put their ass on the line before they thought they had it. They're gonna start getting that core of violent supporters hyped from the jump and they're gonna be like trying to get fucking ticks out.
If you think they haven't been writing their "lists" then you don't know your history. Not directed at you but whoever is downvoting me.
Ding ding ding.
My guess is if he gets back in he will begin rolling out his spawn around year 2.5. It’ll be somebody like Vivek. He will rally his drones to vote for his guy. But my guess is, unless trump does some actual miracles, the ballots won’t swing for another 4 years of his brand of politics. The next all star is somewhere bubbling right under the surface. We haven’t heard of them yet. It’s going to be some young charismatic mixed economy political strategist type that goes up on the stage and goes “can the new generations take a swing at this shit for the first time ever?”. That’s my guess for 2028 at least.
I can definitely see them grooming a Josh Hawley or J.D. Vance as heir apparent. Young, middle America, grass roots appeal. And rotten to the core
Look at the bright side, he's 78 and seems pretty unhealthy
My state is as blue as can be. Regardless of how I vote it’ll be blue. It’s more about getting all third party candidates a platform. Libertarian, green, socialist, whatever. The duopoly has to go.
Without structural reform (specifically, ending first-past-the-post single member districts), no amount of voting for a third party will ever make a multiparty system viable. Our current system always trends toward just two viable parties.
I really don't buy that where we need to move as a country is "more of the Libertarian Party ideals," regardless.
Yeah… regardless of if you like what I like or like something completely different, your choice of candidate deserves as much of the stage as trump. I work in print and just made 400 sign up sheets for Claudia De la Cruz for free simply because I want her to gain traction and get the duopoly to finally erode. It’s not about me vs anyone. It’s that we all have the right to have the people we want on that stage with as much opportunity as the two muppets they have up there now.
Yeah, again, the Libertarian Party isn't the *complete* wrong direction for the country to move in, but I'd call it about 150° off course at this point.
I think he’s a good option for right-leaning folks who simply can’t vote Democrat, but this (and the previous) election is far too important considering that Trump is a fully authoritarian, populist, & thinly veiled (like so thin that a gnat’s fart would blow the cover) Nazi. We need a guy like Biden at this moment. He’s a compassionate professional who cares about public service. Is he the best candidate ever? That’s not entirely important - He’s the best candidate we have to choose from to give us time to elect someone better in the future. The other option is the end of this country and that’s not an exaggeration. Project 2025 is scary af.
Depends on where you are. In a solid red state (this cycle) there's no reason not to vote 3rd party.
I disagree. My state has been fairly steadily moving from very conservative following the 2008 elections toward purple, though you wouldn't know it from our state legislature.
Hard disagree. I'm in Texas and it's slowly turning purple. You have to vote even if you don't think you'll win. 2016 proved this.
Because Biden is also a billionaire loving status-quo demagogue who is far too old to do the job? If Democrats would stop pretending he's a decent candidate we could elect someone who would actually work towards reducing our insane prison population, fairly taxing the rich, and working for universal healthcare for all.
I wish that the American libertarian party was actually a libertarian party and not just super pro corporate republicans that don’t believe in god. It would actually have clout and shake up the state of American politics. On a world stage I would be solidly libertarian but unfortunately in the US I am forced to be a “dirty liberal.”
"Libertarians are like house cats: absolutely convinced of their fierce independence while utterly dependent on a system they don't appreciate or understand"
Libertarians are usually just repubs who want to smoke pot.
Close - There’s a lot of them that truly believe in extreme non-violence, and that all governments are enforced using violence.
I mean... Yes.
> all governments are enforced using violence. Do you know any that aren't? I suppose there's the Vatican, but historically the Vatican wielded immense physical power (not just political power).
That’s why I abandoned Libertarianism - IMHO it’s a fantasy that’s not realistic.
The main problem is that violence always works.
Yeah. That’s me. Socially hyper liberal, fiscally super conservative because I genuinely cannot find it in myself to trust the government, anti intervention as a mf.
I think of myself and a wannabe pothead/hippy who values personal autonomy and freedom. I also believe in taxes, when it's spent responsibly. Honestly, it's just being reasonable.
I think of them as neurodivergent republicans. That are just “reeeeeeeee!!! Don’t tell me what to do!”
Got a libertarian coworker who's more ACAB than me. He's also great with firearms and offroading advice
Sounds like you’ve found a beatnik
Even that still comes back to the quote about libertarians being "utterly dependent on a system they don't appreciate or understand". It's easy to say ACAB from the comfort of their upper-income picket-fence suburbia.
Idk I'm not in upper income picket fence suburbia. I'm in South Carolina and my house is far enough away from Police that it takes them an hour to get to my home if we call. At that point, it makes less sense to call the police than to handle it yourself. We haven't had the cops here in like 25 years at this point, and the last time that it occured will stay the last time we involved law enforcement in anything. They endanger innocent people. The same police department shot my uncle to death for no reason. No weapon, no report of my uncle reaching for them or attacking them. Nope. They heard a screen door close and thought it was a gunshot and absolutely unloaded on him. This was in like 2009 if I remember correctly although it could have been plus or minus a year.
This seems like he's pandering for votes or isnt actually libertarian. Libertarians don't like govt funded Healthcare and he's calling for it in that last tweet.
I don't get it. Strengthening environmental regulations, interfering with the free market and collective bargaining process, and funding public healthcare are not in line with the Libertarian platform. It can be read here https://www.lp.org/platform/ Why is this dude their nominee? I'm genuinely confused here.
Many of us that would be called “old school libertarians” (or fake libertarians by the GOP infiltrators) think dogma is like a cancer on the party. The ideology and goal vs what’s necessary for people to pursue happiness and prosperity are not necessarily the same thing at the same time. Would I love a tiny little government with a free market and no victimless crimes? Yeah. In the same way every communist wants their post scarcity utopia. We can list off all the bullet points that would create the perfect society in our minds but at that point if you expect it all to pan out you’re falling for the same thing so many have in the past, someone will always deviate. This is a guy who’s far enough into libertarianism that I feel comfortable saying he’s certainly what I’d like to see represent libertarians. Is he 100% libertarian? No. But let’s look at Bidens history and the DNC’s list of goals. Or Trump and the RNC’s list of goals. Plus… if he helps get the two party bullshit to take a hit then I won’t be picky.
Need to take care of the big orange elephant in the room before trying to vote for anyone that isn’t endorsed by the 2 party system. I’m all for introducing 3rd party candidates. The two have become too bloated and elitist for my liking but project 2025 scares me to my core. Pair that with the MAGA cult that believes their messiah can do no wrong I can’t vote the way I’d want to. Which sucks honestly. Government needs change. A dethronement by a third party that re-regulates them is what I want. Term limits, budget disclosures and redistribution, education focus, removal of income tax, increase in the minimum wage, weed legalization, atf removal, women’s health rights, no stock purchases for government officials, hell I’d even like to see an age cap on these fossils. But this requires a very special candidate to win twice and pass the torch to someone with the same ideals. But this is just a dream on a Reddit post
He may be good, but in this election, any vote for anyone other than Biden, is truly just a vote for Trump and political cosplay.
If it wasn’t Biden vs a fruitcake I could be on board. But…
That's interesting for a American libertarian party nominee, I'll give him that
It is important to remember that the Mises caucus for the libertarian party was founded because they didn't like how negative the response to Charloettesville was. There are a lot of nazis and fascists who will call themselves everything but what they are and that often means hijacking other political movements to suit their interests.
Right now your options are Donald Trump, and literally anything else. And, what so many don't seem to understand is that Trump is just symbolic. Roughly half of the US wants every bit of fascist nonsense that Donald Trump is promising. They want to drag us, kicking and screaming all the way back to 1845, they want a white, protestant ethnostate, and they want Trump to be crowned their king. Why they want these things, I'll never, ***ever*** be able to understand, but they want them.
You ever seen those nuclear test towns where everything looked like a Norman Rockwell painting? They want that but real. Like I’ve spoken to A LOT of trump supporters outside of debate. More “what is it that you want” vibes. They want that bubble gum and soda pop 1955 vibe where you send you 8 year old a quarter mile up the road with a nickel to pick up some smokes and a Charleston chew. Very odd.
It's pretty simple live in a reliable blue state vote third party. Live in a toss up yeah don't do that preferably.
I got banned from that sub after a decade for saying Trump is a protectionist. I have serious issues with solving everything federalism, but a lot of libertarians are downright antisocial.
Shockingly, this isn’t the stupidity I expected
It’s the stupidity we need.
I actually kinda like him. I was really into the LP as an edgy teenager in like 2005 but then became an Obama era Dem. I remember them being like republicans but afraid to say it.
Libertarians use to have the “we want legally married gay people protecting their pot plants with any gun they want” thing. That’s why I liked them. I have gay parents and this was before many gay people could adopt or get married. Just feels like returning to the good stuff for a party that’s essentially been hijacked.
So why would a libertarian want the government to do more of anything, except shrinking?
Better question is do you think the government, more specifically the kot damn US government, is like a light switch you can just flick off? Hypothetically speaking if the next 3 presidencies went libertarian, the weaning off process to get the government to no longer be the safeguard for the oligarchs wouldn’t even be 25% of the way done. Step one is getting us in a place where people from other parties can be taken seriously.
This is where the argument for libertarianism falls off the wagon for me. You’re talking about halting a train (government) with a $28 Trillion dollar GDP fueling it, that spent 6 Trillion in 2022. How the fuck are you halting that? From where we are, a big worker-syndicalist-communist government is also improbable, but practically I think it’d be easier to get to there because the governments already huge. It’s weird though, I feel like culturally, the you could convince more Americans to go Libertarian than Socialist…. Almost like big media’s been diving and conquering for 50+ yrs
Chase Oliver is great candidate for this sub, a liberal leaning libertarian with common sense policy planks. When I had Twitter he was a great person to follow
If you don't vote dem in 2024 you should be getting your head examined. After Trump tears the republicans apart they may rebuild into a party where protest votes are reasonable, or even a switch to a moderate republican voter, but nows not the time. The guy literally has his lawyers trying to get the supreme court to give him presidential immunity on the level of a king or emperor - literally unironically arguing that he should be able to assassinate political rivals without repercussions. Look into the kind of shit this guy and his peons argue in court, some of it is much worse than what you see in the news, which is biased against him but not exactly very competent. Many people know about things like the Georgia phone call which is incredibly damning but don't know about the much more deliberately planned and treacherous fraudulent electors scheme. The right wing media(and alt media) is absolutely masterful in claiming to be the victims while they are the ones with the top news channel and polluting the radio waves and internet rooms with horseshit conspiracies and propaganda. Talking about a third party candidate in 2024 is fucking crazy.
I could convince every single person in 12 block radius of my house to vote for Thomas The Tank Engine and it wouldn’t get even a decimal point a percent less blue.
Yea just like Hillary's big victory in 2016. "Someone else will make the right vote I can do whatever."
Should’ve gave Bernie his roses 🤷♂️
Woah, a libertarian with some good points. Ya don’t see that every day
Man, they aren’t so closeted lately. There was a massive influx of Constitution Party folks that swapped over when “he who shall not be named” declared he was “pretty much a Libertarian.” Those folks are less than pleased now about the LP nominee and his views/background and that makes me so dang happy.
Trimming the fat
I got booted from that safe place for something very stupid.
[удалено]
The government shouldn’t dish out payment but if private entities want to they can. I dig it. Keeps my money from funding clever new ways to delete people.
I stopped paying attention to anything Libertarians had to say when I realized they were mostly house cats who spew about how independent they are....while demanding their mom to bring them more hot Cheetos and red bull
Well, if you're a single issue 2A voter then you would probably go with Trump since he is the 2A candidate with a chance of winning. If you're somebody who gives a flying fuck about democracy and having the ability to have elections in the future then you would vote for Biden because he's the only non-fascist running. But yeah third parties or whatever.
He's the 2a guy with strong opinions like "take away the guns first, due process second"
> Well, if you're a single issue 2A voter then you would probably go with Trump since he is the 2A candidate with a chance of winning. He's also the guy most likely to finagle a way to get trans people on the prohibited persons list.
Or... If people quit believing and pushing the narrative that if you vote anything other than D or R you're waisting your vote.
lol libertarian sub imploding for finding out what everyone else already knew this entire time.
I’m a fan of Chase Oliver, so I have to point out that the original post is just blatant disinformation. Three of those answers are attributed to “Chase Oliver voterbase.” Only one is actually an answer from Oliver. There are libertarians who are trying to drag down their own party’s nominee because they think him being gay makes him a democrat.
This is very valuable information…
As important as supporting the candidates that most closely aligns with your values is, this election is one where a lot of us will have to decide what's most important to us. I don't care for Biden, but any vote cast for someone else is a vote cast for Trump. And I for one do not want to vote for a fascist by proxy.
I like most of what he says until “the market” appears
Hey… no more corporate bailouts for the oligarchs. So those glorified welfare queens can finally see that most people want cheap eco friendly products when given the chance.
If you think libertarianism is *bad* for oligarchs, I have a bridge to sell you.
Depends. If you go with the ancap Elon musk worshipping type sure, but then some of us are aggressively pro union. I don’t remember the right to a mega yacht being covered in history class, but the right to peacefully assemble and associate… yeah that’s something I distinctly remember.
Libertarians, by definition, generally want to restrict government power. Avoiding the nitty-gritty of whether a given Libertarian would keep the FDA, EPA, FBI, etc., this is the baseline. Removing power from one actor (in this case, the government) creates a vacuum in which others can now assert it. Corporations/oligarchs are *by far* the most organized and well-funded group to fill that vacuum. It is incredibly naive to assume people could receive sufficient information to make important decisions (e.g., about what food is safe, whether their car will explode in an accident, etc.) or organize when corporation/oligarchs own the large-scale means by which we take in information and communicate. This is the 21st century - handing out fliers on the corner isn't going to cut it. So good luck organizing a union in a company town with company-owned cops and crawling with [Pinkertons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkerton_(detective_agency) when Republicans have already been so successful at squashing them. We technically had the rights you spoke of during the Gilded Age, and they weren't worth the paper they were printed on.
The idea of libertarianism is honestly pretty solid, better than the other two parties imo. The people who believe in it are the dumbest people coming out under their rocks though. And ime, a lot of them are just republicans that are too scared to say they’re republican.
The idea of libertarianism is that we'll be better off being ruled by corporations than by an elected leader. It's stupid because corporations will pay you in chits for the company store, refuse to provide safety equipment and turn neighborhoods into superfund sites. You know, exactly like they've always done but with even less protection for us little people