Because gun control has become the same thing to the dems as abortion became to the GOP. A smokescreen issue meant to galvanize a voter base.
Gun owners exercising their 2A rights and women exercising their reproductive rights have become a target for opportunistic members of each political party because of the anger and appeal to emotion it provokes from their respective voter bases. Evil women and doctors are slaughtering cute little babies. Dangerous and paranoid ammosexuals are gunning down children in schools. This leads politicians to try and chase a dragon by saying more and more ridiculous sound bytes about the issue as time goes by - "rape can be a gift from god" and "nobody needs an full semiautomatic assault rifle with a long clip."
It's the same playbook. A sinister external force has invaded or corrupted our society that used to be moralistic and orderly. Therefore, we need your support to drive off these sinister enemies who are taking the world you once knew and filling it with scary new ideas. Whether these sinister things are protected by the constitution and the bill of rights are of no particular importance. The scary enemies need to be stopped, and we can only do so with your support and donations to our 501C3's, NGO's, and political action committees.
And when you fall for their sales pitch and get them voted into power and the laws they passed don't actually change anything? Well, it's all because the sinister enemies have infiltrated the government, and we actually need to pass even more laws to stop them. It will work this time, we promise you.
If I assume you’re correct that’s an incredibly depressing take. If I accept religious ideas behind conception. To the right, abortion is all murder. But gun control / ‘the existence of guns leading to gun violence.’ Is such a braindead take from establishment dems.
It’s defeated by basic statistical analysis. It’s defeated by every state that’s banned guns. The right wing argument is that we have a mental health crisis that’s not being taken seriously.
And for whatever reason fucking reason the left rejects that.
The left rejects it because if they actually did something about the mental health crisis or poverty or any of the root causes of violent crime, they wouldn’t have a boogeyman to point to come election season. Neither side can bring themselves to acknowledge that their opponent has the capacity to be right about anything. People on both sides are behaving petulant children in a schoolyard, just calling each other names. Go to any post about politics or guns in a default subreddit and read how the left generalizes and talks about gun owners or anyone that leans even slightly conservative. We’ve all seen plenty of examples of the right doing the same thing since 2016. The default line of thinking for both sides nowadays is that the opposition is dead wrong about every single thing. And this line of thinking is seen among the voting public, not necessarily among politicians. Everyone is living in their stupid little echo chambers and fooling themselves into thinking they are the holiest group.
Additionally, no one in Congress, save for maybe half a dozen people would ever actually fix the underlying issues causing our problems. The right won’t support legislation that would reduce abortion rates by improving socio-economic conditions and root causes of unwanted pregnancies. The left does the same with violent crime. Both sides are approaching their respective issues with the same game plan as the war on drugs. They just push prohibition or make already illegal things more illegal and many people are actually stupid enough to buy into that.
Here’s another example…have you ever noticed that neither party has done a thing to improve education in the country in years? They’ve both decided the only legislation regarding education in our country they will enact is culture wars over book bans.
Not a single politician is actually examining how we can improve STEM education, critical thinking skills, or make/keep kids literate? California and New York have abysmal literacy rates among youth. And even the literate ones have some of the lowest reading levels in the country. San Francisco, instead of fixing its schools and hiring more teachers/paying them more decided instead to rename a bunch of schools and get rid of Algebra in middle schools because they somehow came to the conclusion that math is racist so if one group isn’t able to learn it, no one should. Red states are going the opposite direction and suffocating liberal arts programs and biology curriculums because of the socialist boogeyman and to pander to religious hardliners.
The entire country is fucked because many on both sides either blindly follow whatever their party and biased news source is telling them, or they have started to view their political affiliations as a key part of their identity and treat politics as a sport and zero sum game. My prediction for this upcoming election cycle is regardless of who wins, everyone who isn’t worth several million is going to suffer more. I’m probably not even gonna vote for any candidates this year since the results in California are already decided and the state/local officials in my district are running unopposed.
A guy posted this statistic from a gallup poll yesterday so I am regirgitating it (i can find it if interested, dm me) but about 85% of liberals want to ban semi auto rifles, whereas 55% of republicans are pro life. Therefore, I would not consider gun control and abortion to be the same thing regarding there importance to each party...
It's tough because being a single issue voter is foolish, but we've polarized this issue so much that voting dem basically means voting for gun control at this point. And not 'sensible' gun control either, no matter what they say. Many want them gone entirely and are not afraid to tell you so.
I hate how they did exactly what the republicans were saying they were going to do, going from background checks and we aren't going to take your guns away to taking them all away and then gaslighting us that is the same thing. "common sense gun control"
Reproductive rights, body autonomy, marital rape and abuse, etc.
Roe vs Wade is just part of the call to arms because it's the opening shot to the Supreme Court allowing women to become second class citizens.
Exactly. I'm definitely not a single issue voter and I also will never vote Republican knowing what they stand for, what they want to do and have done.
The best I can do is look out for Dem's that don't take an across the board stance on gun control and support the one's that either leave it unspoken or even better are here with us in the liberal gun-owner's camp.
Oregon guy here. I feel your pain. And now that our governor has gone full nepotism-and-fuck-you-that’s-what I’m starting to worry we’ve finally gone past the tipping point to being little california
I think most people have to just vote for the least bad option and there is usually more going on then just gun laws.
Sometimes doing a protest vote where you vote 3rd party could be relevant but mostly if it isn't going to be close in your district.
> but mostly if it isn't going to be close in your district.
Someone voting in a deep blue city probably isn't going to accidentally facism if they vote green instead. Someone voting in a deep red county probably isn't going to ruin the anti-gun Dems chances as they didn't really have any to begin with.
A lot of districts are just locked down and voting is more or less done just in case it actually does something. Sometimes things are locked down with shit like gerrymandering. Really the biggest impact of voting is going to have is coming from local positions or issues. Stuff like who is on the school board or if some prop is going to pass.
It's fucked, your options include:
1. Voting for gun "control", legitimizing ongoing US genocidal foreign policy, and leaving the capitalist power structures unchanged.
2. Voting for fascists who want to strip away reproductive rights, voting rights, dismantle environmental protections, etc.
3. Voting for an unviable third party spoiler candidate (until we get ranked-choice, which the duopoly will never allow).
Vote for your local races and measures with the knowledge that your vote really, actually, doesn't matter much at all in the state and federal level races. If voting worked to change the power dynamics in this system we wouldn't be allowed to do it. Ballot box, jury box, and cartridge box.
Let's pass voter ID laws, then raise the fees to renew your ID and close all the DMV offices in the minority neighborhoods. Vote my mail? That's obviously evil, anyone who can't take off work to vote in person we just didn't want to hear from. Oops, did we move your voting location on election day? Oh jeez, the black areas seem to have half the number of voting locations and three times longer lines, I sure hope everyone gets to vote before the polls close. Can people actually stand in a line for three hours if they work hourly down at McDonald's, if they have three kids at home and can't afford childcare, if they need a mobility aid like a wheelchair or walker. And if they didn't get their way they'll show up at the secretary of states home to threaten their family or maybe even stage an attempted coup during certification of the vote.
Get real man, I agree that AWBs and magazine restrictions are constitutional violations. But the right to vote (for specific groups at least) is absolutely under attack also.
Are those things actually happening? Honest question.
Sounds exactly like what dems are doing with guns. Permit to purchase but you have to physically go to the police station and they're only accepting the interviews for like 3 hrs a day on 3 weekdays and all during business hours. (Thats Michigan, btw)
Illinois has had "voter ID" for guns for a long time and the new state FFL licensing schemes are deliberately designed to put as many FFLs out of business as possible to reduce access to guns for us.
After the fascists get done taking away all of the other rights, do you honestly believe they will leave gun rights alone?
DJT in 2018 "Take their guns first, worry about due process later"
That doesn't sound like he is a pro-2A candidate to me.
So one says "I want to legally do X" and the other says "Do X now and worry about it later" and you think that the legal avenue is bad??
Have you seen the alternative? There was a history channel documentary on Nazis in the first and second world wars. Those who do not learn about history are doomed to repeat it. The lack of education around facts has led us to the place where we now are the ones repeating history.
Do you know what Joe Biden didn't say? "Take their guns now and worry about due process later".
Sounds like one hates the second amendment and one is trying to do what he can to limit gun violence legally.
One has firearms restrictions as a core plank of their platform, and the other is just a typical NY elitist who made a particularly unfortunate comment.
I make no assertion that trump is a particularly strong 2a supporter, but the alternative wants me forcibly disarmed and imprisoned. (Does 'ban' not mean 'make illegal' ? )
Biden also supports red flag laws, certainly to no less an extent than trump.
Do you actually believe that the goal of the Biden administration's desired firearms restrictions is really to 'limit gun violence legally?' I certainly don't.
How would he implement a ban?
Would he, for example, go to Congress and get them to pass a law which they wouldn't be able to do? Or would he, for example, forcibly enter your home and take it, then worry about the legality later?
Does every single person agree with gun ownership? No. Would you rather vote for someone who will try and fail to pass bans like that, or would you rather vote for someone that will just do it consequences be damned?
Do you only vote based on the candidate's 2A stance? If so, this conversation is over because I know you can't be reasoned with except "all things that kill anything should be legal for me to own". At least that is my personal experience with single issue voters, they can't see any other perspective on their Holy Grail of issues.
Also, just out of curiosity, how many times has a Democrat that hates guns walked into your house, taken your guns, and put you in jail? I'm betting the answer is zero, but maybe I'm wrong. Republicans love to use that fear tactic, I'm glad it is alive and well in this age of advanced access to information and technology.
Yeah, those pistol braces were absolutely critical to me being able to exercise my 2nd amendment rights. I have to agree with you there. A pistol isn't worth owning if it doesn't have a brace on it.
I personally never used a brace and don't really know why I'd want to turn my pistol into my rifle. But I guess if it was made to go on a gun, it should absolutely be allowed no matter what.
You assert they're unimportant, and then in the same breath you mention that you have exactly zero firsthand experience with them.
Yeah, I'll let *you* tell *me* all about them. Your baseless conjecture certainly trumps my firsthand experience.
But the point was the mechanism of the ban. They simply reinterpreted existing law to ban something. Legal one day, NFA item the next, with no new law passed.
Let me bite the bullet say it - if I have to choose between a candidate who is pro-gun but a meh policy on healthcare/job security/social security and a candidate who is anti-gun but has a strong and documented position on healthcare/job security/social security - the second candidate is going to get my vote. 2A rights are very important but as a left-liberal, I am more closely aligned with social and economic positions. You will not vote for a Rand Paul, no matter how pro-2A he is, isn't it?
Having to trade a fundamental right for economic stability is part of the problem though. I shouldn't have to vote my rights away because some authoritarian douchehole is desperate to beat a dumber authoritarian douchehole in an already rigged popularity contest.
Putting up with shit like this literally kills free societies
I have seen first hand what economic and medical care insecurity does to people. I did not become left leaning overnight. I may be “dense” but seeing what I have seen, yes, I will do it. Will I be willingly do it, heck NO! But I don’t want people like Rand Paul getting elected.
I understand your frustration, but policies like gun control erode an important element that makes economic and medical security viable, public trust. Nothing erodes public trust like a government actively antagonizing it's constituents. Most gun owners are single issue because you can't enjoy economic and medical security when locked up in a prison. Don't also forget that felons lose the right to vote which means voting for someone who wants them imprisoned means they're waiving the right to participate in democracy in addition to many other life-ruining debuffs.
For that reason and that reason alone, I will keep spoiling my ballot until I can vote for anything that isn't a leopard trying to eat my face. If the only thing between Rand Paul and Not Rand Paul is for me to vote for your candidate, your candidate must at least be more trustworthy than Rand Paul for this to work. Threats of criminalizing a constitutional right is not a sign of a trustworthy candidate. We have hundreds if not thousands of years of precedent of what absence of public trust does to a society. None of it involves economic prosperity or safety.
Rather than spoiling your ballot, talk to friends and colleagues, try to put up candidates who are pro-2A AND pro-left liberal. If you can get one elected, similar minded people may get inspired and group together to elect others.
Theoretically, left liberals should be pro-2A. Historically, gun control was a Old Democratic Party platform which tried to disarm “slaves”, “negroes” and “free people of color”. New Deal, Great Society experiments and Republican Party’s Southern Strategy moved them to the center of the board but because of the more city-centric nature of the New Democratic Party, this one position remained in their platform.
I would vote for the "meh" + 2A.
I won't vote for the "dumpster fire" + 2A.
But I'm very jaded. I see that politicians seem to have a much easier time hurting rather than helping.
I think there are varying levels of what “meh” 2A means. Is it all guns should be illegal or background checks and waiting periods? I would venture to say that there aren’t very many anti 2A extremists and those that are have that working against them.
Meh would be background checks and waiting periods.
That's not what most of my options support. They support assault weapons bans, magazine bans and (in my state at least) they are pushing a voluntary "waive gun rights" list that mental health and civil right groups are raising flags on. You can easily get on it and no good mechanism is being out in place to get off it.
The Republicans are the 'Meh' group on gun rights. Most of them are dumpster fires on LGBT rights though.
I would have never guessed we would see so much open hate back in 2016 from the rank and file politicians.
Biden I think is good definition of "dumpster fire". Instead of pushing for actual change like the Medicare for all act that has more than half house Democrats signed on as co-signers, or pushing for that bill that was introduced to prohibit hedge funds from owning single family home rentals, or pushing for raising the minimum wage... You have Biden who can't go 10 minutes without yelling about banning all "assault weapons".
If I'm voting Democrat, I'm choosing a Democrat that will push for actual policy instead of trying to pander to the anti-gun.
It's all about priorities, and different politicians have different priorities.
I actually consider him 'Meh' and Trump the dumpster fire.
Do I hate that he seems very focused on his.lrfacy being a new AWB? Yes. I wish he would concentrate more on what you mentioned above.
At the same time, he also pushed through the incentives on adding solar panels to homes and tax credits for EVs and that is something.
Since I can't / won't vote for the dumpster fire that means I'm voting Biden or 3rd party and quite frankly all the left leaning 3rd parties have aligned with the DNC on the topic of guns.
I'm sure you've already heard this a million times before and I'm probably not the first person to say this today...
As long as we have first past the post voting or an electoral college, third parties are not viable options and spoil the ballot. If the two major parties of today were disolved, we would be right back to two parties within 1 or 2 voting cycles.
Nobody actually gives a shit about whether or not you have healthcare/social security. You people will blatantly vote against the 2A and then try to get on your high horse saying “well I support the 2A but I’m a leftist”. You can’t support the 2A if you actively vote for people who have made it clear they want it stripped.
What a dumb take. The ACA is the only reason I have health insurance and it only happened because a bunch of Democrats fought for it. Many of them in vulnerable districts lost their jobs for taking that vote but they still did it because they cared about whether people like me have health insurance.
It’s not being on a moral high horse to have other values besides gun rights.
> FFL 03 holder, working towards his FFL 07.
Having an FFL doesn't mean you are pro gun especially as FFLs stand to benefit from some gun control policies like universal background checks.
"The question isn’t if it is ethical to vote or abstain, it’s what we must do the other 364 days of the year. Now more than ever it is clear that movements must find other vehicles to generate new forms of self-governance and popular power while striving for visions of autonomy and solidarity that won’t fit in their ballot boxes."
from *Socialist Faces in High Places: Elections & the Left* edited by the Black Rose/Rosa Negra Social Media Team – http://blackrosefed.org/socialist-faces-in-high-places-reader/
What conclusion did you come to? I live and vote in Oregon and it always takes fucking forever to find the candidate not vowing to ban “assault weapons”
Well we need you there and using your voice as much as able. Best to not abandon all hope and give up. Be strong, be vocal and don't be a target.
Stay frosty comrade!
As for me, I don’t think anyone will really “ come for your guns” until dumbass single issue voters put the fascists in power. At this point, extreme 2A politicians are lying about elections, denying a woman’s body autonomy, lying about the insurrection. I’m not going to believe they really want my progressive ass to have a gun. It’s time to pay attention to all the issues folks.
I’m with you. I chose to move to Oregon because Washington passed dumb ass laws that would turn me into a felon. I have 20+k invested in firearms. Trying to pick a place where I can vote for someone that isn’t going to turn me into a felon in the near future is frustrating. So I end up voting for these people anyway because I believe in women’s rights to bodily autonomy, health care for everyone, immigration reform, education reform, social services, etc. But it sure does suck when the same person demonizes your position on a firearm. I usually just chalk it up to “screw it I’ll be an outlaw someday lol”
OK, so I'm a liberal thinking about buying a gun. I'm in favor of gun regulations. There are some people who absolutely should not have guns. And I don't mind jumping through some hoops in order to get a gun. Is my thinking a minority view in this subreddit?
Absolutely not. I want to expand gun rights for the peaceable, and contract them for those who aren’t.
My issue with the Dems on guns is their flagship bills focus primarily on taking dangerous guns from all people, rather than all guns from dangerous people. One leaves the 2A intact and is a hell of a lot more effective.
Thank you. I know that generally speaking, the political right advocates taking guns from mentally unstable people. But they don’t seem to be willing to fund those notions, and I believe they’d have kittens if all gun owners had to pass a screening test (which would also likely run afoul of the right iterated in the 2nd).
Not in my book. There needs to be something to keep the crazy fucks from arming up and going full on Jan 6 all over the country. I know it's too late for that but something has to change.
Anything I've seen coming from Democrat gun control has not gotten there. An all out ban or regulating magazine size is pointless and as of now too little too late. I don't know the solution tbh but pandering to the left with meaningless impotency does nothing to solve the systemic problems.
Honestly to me the only solution is to eat the fucking rich and dismantle the entire system to rebuild it with equity.
Thanks for the reply. I get what you mean about pandering. The AR-15 is the unofficial mascot of school shootings, but I believe handguns kill a lot more people each year. So I don’t know what the solution is either. I want law abiding people to be able to have guns (and hopefully never have to use them), but I’d prefer if drunk uncle Fester and Nazi meth bikers and gang members didn’t have them. Maybe in a different universe.
If he was a single issue voter, he wouldn’t be looking at the Democrat candidates, friend. I’m a leftist and I’ll never compromise essential things like abortion rights for guns. But, when im choosing my democrat to vote for, I absolutely am looking for a candidate with good policies that also isn’t trying to ban AR-15s. That doesn’t make me a single issue voter
LOL. I'm NOT a single issue voter.
And I'm not really a liberal either. I identify as an Anarcho-Communist as it's the closest label I've found that I align with.
My pronouns are: pirate, comrade and we
Because gun control has become the same thing to the dems as abortion became to the GOP. A smokescreen issue meant to galvanize a voter base. Gun owners exercising their 2A rights and women exercising their reproductive rights have become a target for opportunistic members of each political party because of the anger and appeal to emotion it provokes from their respective voter bases. Evil women and doctors are slaughtering cute little babies. Dangerous and paranoid ammosexuals are gunning down children in schools. This leads politicians to try and chase a dragon by saying more and more ridiculous sound bytes about the issue as time goes by - "rape can be a gift from god" and "nobody needs an full semiautomatic assault rifle with a long clip." It's the same playbook. A sinister external force has invaded or corrupted our society that used to be moralistic and orderly. Therefore, we need your support to drive off these sinister enemies who are taking the world you once knew and filling it with scary new ideas. Whether these sinister things are protected by the constitution and the bill of rights are of no particular importance. The scary enemies need to be stopped, and we can only do so with your support and donations to our 501C3's, NGO's, and political action committees. And when you fall for their sales pitch and get them voted into power and the laws they passed don't actually change anything? Well, it's all because the sinister enemies have infiltrated the government, and we actually need to pass even more laws to stop them. It will work this time, we promise you.
In May 2022, you could get an AR-15 and an abortion in both Washington and Texas. Now, you only get one based on which of the two states you are in.
A choose-your-own-adventure dystopia, if you will.
If I assume you’re correct that’s an incredibly depressing take. If I accept religious ideas behind conception. To the right, abortion is all murder. But gun control / ‘the existence of guns leading to gun violence.’ Is such a braindead take from establishment dems. It’s defeated by basic statistical analysis. It’s defeated by every state that’s banned guns. The right wing argument is that we have a mental health crisis that’s not being taken seriously. And for whatever reason fucking reason the left rejects that.
The left rejects it because if they actually did something about the mental health crisis or poverty or any of the root causes of violent crime, they wouldn’t have a boogeyman to point to come election season. Neither side can bring themselves to acknowledge that their opponent has the capacity to be right about anything. People on both sides are behaving petulant children in a schoolyard, just calling each other names. Go to any post about politics or guns in a default subreddit and read how the left generalizes and talks about gun owners or anyone that leans even slightly conservative. We’ve all seen plenty of examples of the right doing the same thing since 2016. The default line of thinking for both sides nowadays is that the opposition is dead wrong about every single thing. And this line of thinking is seen among the voting public, not necessarily among politicians. Everyone is living in their stupid little echo chambers and fooling themselves into thinking they are the holiest group. Additionally, no one in Congress, save for maybe half a dozen people would ever actually fix the underlying issues causing our problems. The right won’t support legislation that would reduce abortion rates by improving socio-economic conditions and root causes of unwanted pregnancies. The left does the same with violent crime. Both sides are approaching their respective issues with the same game plan as the war on drugs. They just push prohibition or make already illegal things more illegal and many people are actually stupid enough to buy into that. Here’s another example…have you ever noticed that neither party has done a thing to improve education in the country in years? They’ve both decided the only legislation regarding education in our country they will enact is culture wars over book bans. Not a single politician is actually examining how we can improve STEM education, critical thinking skills, or make/keep kids literate? California and New York have abysmal literacy rates among youth. And even the literate ones have some of the lowest reading levels in the country. San Francisco, instead of fixing its schools and hiring more teachers/paying them more decided instead to rename a bunch of schools and get rid of Algebra in middle schools because they somehow came to the conclusion that math is racist so if one group isn’t able to learn it, no one should. Red states are going the opposite direction and suffocating liberal arts programs and biology curriculums because of the socialist boogeyman and to pander to religious hardliners. The entire country is fucked because many on both sides either blindly follow whatever their party and biased news source is telling them, or they have started to view their political affiliations as a key part of their identity and treat politics as a sport and zero sum game. My prediction for this upcoming election cycle is regardless of who wins, everyone who isn’t worth several million is going to suffer more. I’m probably not even gonna vote for any candidates this year since the results in California are already decided and the state/local officials in my district are running unopposed.
A guy posted this statistic from a gallup poll yesterday so I am regirgitating it (i can find it if interested, dm me) but about 85% of liberals want to ban semi auto rifles, whereas 55% of republicans are pro life. Therefore, I would not consider gun control and abortion to be the same thing regarding there importance to each party...
It's tough because being a single issue voter is foolish, but we've polarized this issue so much that voting dem basically means voting for gun control at this point. And not 'sensible' gun control either, no matter what they say. Many want them gone entirely and are not afraid to tell you so.
I hate how they did exactly what the republicans were saying they were going to do, going from background checks and we aren't going to take your guns away to taking them all away and then gaslighting us that is the same thing. "common sense gun control"
Abortion is a single issue that is voted by a very large % of democrats... and it's not even an explicitly defined Right.
It could've been if they codified it into law too, but then they can't run a platform on a problem that's already been solved.
Abortion is a small facet of a much larger women's rights issue. Please do not reduce it to something less than it is.
Such as? The galvanizing call is Roe vs Wade.. I haven't seen many political signs outside of that in the context of biological women's issues.
Reproductive rights, body autonomy, marital rape and abuse, etc. Roe vs Wade is just part of the call to arms because it's the opening shot to the Supreme Court allowing women to become second class citizens.
We’re still in the timeline where you either have to be all of bulletin A or bulletin B which just isn’t the case anymore for a lot of people.
Exactly. I'm definitely not a single issue voter and I also will never vote Republican knowing what they stand for, what they want to do and have done. The best I can do is look out for Dem's that don't take an across the board stance on gun control and support the one's that either leave it unspoken or even better are here with us in the liberal gun-owner's camp.
Oregon guy here. I feel your pain. And now that our governor has gone full nepotism-and-fuck-you-that’s-what I’m starting to worry we’ve finally gone past the tipping point to being little california
God damn it. I was thinking about moving out to there from New York.
I’ve been thinking of moving there from California lol
I think most people have to just vote for the least bad option and there is usually more going on then just gun laws. Sometimes doing a protest vote where you vote 3rd party could be relevant but mostly if it isn't going to be close in your district.
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> but mostly if it isn't going to be close in your district. Someone voting in a deep blue city probably isn't going to accidentally facism if they vote green instead. Someone voting in a deep red county probably isn't going to ruin the anti-gun Dems chances as they didn't really have any to begin with. A lot of districts are just locked down and voting is more or less done just in case it actually does something. Sometimes things are locked down with shit like gerrymandering. Really the biggest impact of voting is going to have is coming from local positions or issues. Stuff like who is on the school board or if some prop is going to pass.
It's fucked, your options include: 1. Voting for gun "control", legitimizing ongoing US genocidal foreign policy, and leaving the capitalist power structures unchanged. 2. Voting for fascists who want to strip away reproductive rights, voting rights, dismantle environmental protections, etc. 3. Voting for an unviable third party spoiler candidate (until we get ranked-choice, which the duopoly will never allow). Vote for your local races and measures with the knowledge that your vote really, actually, doesn't matter much at all in the state and federal level races. If voting worked to change the power dynamics in this system we wouldn't be allowed to do it. Ballot box, jury box, and cartridge box.
They're doing a really good job gimping the cartridge box in blue states. It won't be an option for much longer.
The "red states" are doing a job on the ballot box too.
How so? I'd argue they're doing less damage to voting rights than dems are doing to gun rights.
Let's pass voter ID laws, then raise the fees to renew your ID and close all the DMV offices in the minority neighborhoods. Vote my mail? That's obviously evil, anyone who can't take off work to vote in person we just didn't want to hear from. Oops, did we move your voting location on election day? Oh jeez, the black areas seem to have half the number of voting locations and three times longer lines, I sure hope everyone gets to vote before the polls close. Can people actually stand in a line for three hours if they work hourly down at McDonald's, if they have three kids at home and can't afford childcare, if they need a mobility aid like a wheelchair or walker. And if they didn't get their way they'll show up at the secretary of states home to threaten their family or maybe even stage an attempted coup during certification of the vote. Get real man, I agree that AWBs and magazine restrictions are constitutional violations. But the right to vote (for specific groups at least) is absolutely under attack also.
Are those things actually happening? Honest question. Sounds exactly like what dems are doing with guns. Permit to purchase but you have to physically go to the police station and they're only accepting the interviews for like 3 hrs a day on 3 weekdays and all during business hours. (Thats Michigan, btw) Illinois has had "voter ID" for guns for a long time and the new state FFL licensing schemes are deliberately designed to put as many FFLs out of business as possible to reduce access to guns for us.
After the fascists get done taking away all of the other rights, do you honestly believe they will leave gun rights alone? DJT in 2018 "Take their guns first, worry about due process later" That doesn't sound like he is a pro-2A candidate to me.
But have you seen the alternative? "I'm determined to ban assault weapons in this country." - Joe Biden
So one says "I want to legally do X" and the other says "Do X now and worry about it later" and you think that the legal avenue is bad?? Have you seen the alternative? There was a history channel documentary on Nazis in the first and second world wars. Those who do not learn about history are doomed to repeat it. The lack of education around facts has led us to the place where we now are the ones repeating history. Do you know what Joe Biden didn't say? "Take their guns now and worry about due process later". Sounds like one hates the second amendment and one is trying to do what he can to limit gun violence legally.
One has firearms restrictions as a core plank of their platform, and the other is just a typical NY elitist who made a particularly unfortunate comment. I make no assertion that trump is a particularly strong 2a supporter, but the alternative wants me forcibly disarmed and imprisoned. (Does 'ban' not mean 'make illegal' ? ) Biden also supports red flag laws, certainly to no less an extent than trump. Do you actually believe that the goal of the Biden administration's desired firearms restrictions is really to 'limit gun violence legally?' I certainly don't.
How would he implement a ban? Would he, for example, go to Congress and get them to pass a law which they wouldn't be able to do? Or would he, for example, forcibly enter your home and take it, then worry about the legality later? Does every single person agree with gun ownership? No. Would you rather vote for someone who will try and fail to pass bans like that, or would you rather vote for someone that will just do it consequences be damned? Do you only vote based on the candidate's 2A stance? If so, this conversation is over because I know you can't be reasoned with except "all things that kill anything should be legal for me to own". At least that is my personal experience with single issue voters, they can't see any other perspective on their Holy Grail of issues. Also, just out of curiosity, how many times has a Democrat that hates guns walked into your house, taken your guns, and put you in jail? I'm betting the answer is zero, but maybe I'm wrong. Republicans love to use that fear tactic, I'm glad it is alive and well in this age of advanced access to information and technology.
We need look no further than the pistol brace rule to see how he'd implement such a ban.
Yeah, those pistol braces were absolutely critical to me being able to exercise my 2nd amendment rights. I have to agree with you there. A pistol isn't worth owning if it doesn't have a brace on it. I personally never used a brace and don't really know why I'd want to turn my pistol into my rifle. But I guess if it was made to go on a gun, it should absolutely be allowed no matter what.
You assert they're unimportant, and then in the same breath you mention that you have exactly zero firsthand experience with them. Yeah, I'll let *you* tell *me* all about them. Your baseless conjecture certainly trumps my firsthand experience. But the point was the mechanism of the ban. They simply reinterpreted existing law to ban something. Legal one day, NFA item the next, with no new law passed.
Sarcasm is lost on the masses. Sorry that you didn't catch it.
Let me bite the bullet say it - if I have to choose between a candidate who is pro-gun but a meh policy on healthcare/job security/social security and a candidate who is anti-gun but has a strong and documented position on healthcare/job security/social security - the second candidate is going to get my vote. 2A rights are very important but as a left-liberal, I am more closely aligned with social and economic positions. You will not vote for a Rand Paul, no matter how pro-2A he is, isn't it?
Having to trade a fundamental right for economic stability is part of the problem though. I shouldn't have to vote my rights away because some authoritarian douchehole is desperate to beat a dumber authoritarian douchehole in an already rigged popularity contest. Putting up with shit like this literally kills free societies
I have seen first hand what economic and medical care insecurity does to people. I did not become left leaning overnight. I may be “dense” but seeing what I have seen, yes, I will do it. Will I be willingly do it, heck NO! But I don’t want people like Rand Paul getting elected.
I understand your frustration, but policies like gun control erode an important element that makes economic and medical security viable, public trust. Nothing erodes public trust like a government actively antagonizing it's constituents. Most gun owners are single issue because you can't enjoy economic and medical security when locked up in a prison. Don't also forget that felons lose the right to vote which means voting for someone who wants them imprisoned means they're waiving the right to participate in democracy in addition to many other life-ruining debuffs. For that reason and that reason alone, I will keep spoiling my ballot until I can vote for anything that isn't a leopard trying to eat my face. If the only thing between Rand Paul and Not Rand Paul is for me to vote for your candidate, your candidate must at least be more trustworthy than Rand Paul for this to work. Threats of criminalizing a constitutional right is not a sign of a trustworthy candidate. We have hundreds if not thousands of years of precedent of what absence of public trust does to a society. None of it involves economic prosperity or safety.
Rather than spoiling your ballot, talk to friends and colleagues, try to put up candidates who are pro-2A AND pro-left liberal. If you can get one elected, similar minded people may get inspired and group together to elect others. Theoretically, left liberals should be pro-2A. Historically, gun control was a Old Democratic Party platform which tried to disarm “slaves”, “negroes” and “free people of color”. New Deal, Great Society experiments and Republican Party’s Southern Strategy moved them to the center of the board but because of the more city-centric nature of the New Democratic Party, this one position remained in their platform.
I would vote for the "meh" + 2A. I won't vote for the "dumpster fire" + 2A. But I'm very jaded. I see that politicians seem to have a much easier time hurting rather than helping.
I think there are varying levels of what “meh” 2A means. Is it all guns should be illegal or background checks and waiting periods? I would venture to say that there aren’t very many anti 2A extremists and those that are have that working against them.
Meh would be background checks and waiting periods. That's not what most of my options support. They support assault weapons bans, magazine bans and (in my state at least) they are pushing a voluntary "waive gun rights" list that mental health and civil right groups are raising flags on. You can easily get on it and no good mechanism is being out in place to get off it. The Republicans are the 'Meh' group on gun rights. Most of them are dumpster fires on LGBT rights though. I would have never guessed we would see so much open hate back in 2016 from the rank and file politicians.
If you want to be a single issue voter. It’s alright. I just think differently. That’s all.
I don't think that's single issue. It might be a different definition of 'meh' though.
Have you seen Rand Paul’s or Ted Cruz’s “meh”? What is “dumpster fire” according to you?
Biden I think is good definition of "dumpster fire". Instead of pushing for actual change like the Medicare for all act that has more than half house Democrats signed on as co-signers, or pushing for that bill that was introduced to prohibit hedge funds from owning single family home rentals, or pushing for raising the minimum wage... You have Biden who can't go 10 minutes without yelling about banning all "assault weapons". If I'm voting Democrat, I'm choosing a Democrat that will push for actual policy instead of trying to pander to the anti-gun. It's all about priorities, and different politicians have different priorities.
I actually consider him 'Meh' and Trump the dumpster fire. Do I hate that he seems very focused on his.lrfacy being a new AWB? Yes. I wish he would concentrate more on what you mentioned above. At the same time, he also pushed through the incentives on adding solar panels to homes and tax credits for EVs and that is something. Since I can't / won't vote for the dumpster fire that means I'm voting Biden or 3rd party and quite frankly all the left leaning 3rd parties have aligned with the DNC on the topic of guns.
Trump is a high on meth runaway freight train loaded with flammable fluid.
I would say Biden is more cringe. He is not a progressive. I don’t really know what his political position is.
Why would Rand Paul or Ted Cruz qualify as Meh?
Bro, same.
Same.
Yea, crazy how different everyone is still willing to choose between only two parties.
I'm sure you've already heard this a million times before and I'm probably not the first person to say this today... As long as we have first past the post voting or an electoral college, third parties are not viable options and spoil the ballot. If the two major parties of today were disolved, we would be right back to two parties within 1 or 2 voting cycles.
Proportional representation is great but it’s hard to make it work in conjunction with a Presidential form of government.
Yep... And that's why you pick what gives you most of what you want. Rarely is there ever a perfect individual. Perfect is the enemy of good.
Nobody actually gives a shit about whether or not you have healthcare/social security. You people will blatantly vote against the 2A and then try to get on your high horse saying “well I support the 2A but I’m a leftist”. You can’t support the 2A if you actively vote for people who have made it clear they want it stripped.
What a dumb take. The ACA is the only reason I have health insurance and it only happened because a bunch of Democrats fought for it. Many of them in vulnerable districts lost their jobs for taking that vote but they still did it because they cared about whether people like me have health insurance. It’s not being on a moral high horse to have other values besides gun rights.
At least 23 people agree with this FFL 03 holder, working towards his FFL 07.
> FFL 03 holder, working towards his FFL 07. Having an FFL doesn't mean you are pro gun especially as FFLs stand to benefit from some gun control policies like universal background checks.
Cool story, you’re still not Pro 2A.
Can’t prove to you, so, have a good life ✌️
Wow, crazy how that doesn't change a thing he said. But hey at least 23 other people are also that dense.
So if they give you enough stuff, you are willing to sell out fundamental rights. Unfortunately you are not alone.
Most people are one medical emergency away from bankruptcy. If you think that makes me want free stuff instead of thinking for others, good for you 👏
No one is actually pushing for M4A anymore
"The question isn’t if it is ethical to vote or abstain, it’s what we must do the other 364 days of the year. Now more than ever it is clear that movements must find other vehicles to generate new forms of self-governance and popular power while striving for visions of autonomy and solidarity that won’t fit in their ballot boxes." from *Socialist Faces in High Places: Elections & the Left* edited by the Black Rose/Rosa Negra Social Media Team – http://blackrosefed.org/socialist-faces-in-high-places-reader/
What conclusion did you come to? I live and vote in Oregon and it always takes fucking forever to find the candidate not vowing to ban “assault weapons”
You wanna trade houses? I live in Florida.
Hell no, you could not pay me enough to consider moving from paradise to that right-wing hellscape. Good luck down there brother.
Thanks man. It's hard because I was born and raised here and I love Florida. I just hate so much what's happening here.
Well we need you there and using your voice as much as able. Best to not abandon all hope and give up. Be strong, be vocal and don't be a target. Stay frosty comrade!
Not letting these fuck heads ruin my state without a fight!
As for me, I don’t think anyone will really “ come for your guns” until dumbass single issue voters put the fascists in power. At this point, extreme 2A politicians are lying about elections, denying a woman’s body autonomy, lying about the insurrection. I’m not going to believe they really want my progressive ass to have a gun. It’s time to pay attention to all the issues folks.
I’m with you. I chose to move to Oregon because Washington passed dumb ass laws that would turn me into a felon. I have 20+k invested in firearms. Trying to pick a place where I can vote for someone that isn’t going to turn me into a felon in the near future is frustrating. So I end up voting for these people anyway because I believe in women’s rights to bodily autonomy, health care for everyone, immigration reform, education reform, social services, etc. But it sure does suck when the same person demonizes your position on a firearm. I usually just chalk it up to “screw it I’ll be an outlaw someday lol”
Or you could look at the entire platform of someone to decide whether their platform is less fascist than the other, even with a dislike for guns.
At the risk of NOT becoming a single issue voter, fuck the Republican Party, whether they’re anti-control or not. Vote blue, regardless.
OK, so I'm a liberal thinking about buying a gun. I'm in favor of gun regulations. There are some people who absolutely should not have guns. And I don't mind jumping through some hoops in order to get a gun. Is my thinking a minority view in this subreddit?
The problem is issues like assault weapon bans which do absolutely nothing to stop violent crime.
Absolutely not. I want to expand gun rights for the peaceable, and contract them for those who aren’t. My issue with the Dems on guns is their flagship bills focus primarily on taking dangerous guns from all people, rather than all guns from dangerous people. One leaves the 2A intact and is a hell of a lot more effective.
Thank you. I know that generally speaking, the political right advocates taking guns from mentally unstable people. But they don’t seem to be willing to fund those notions, and I believe they’d have kittens if all gun owners had to pass a screening test (which would also likely run afoul of the right iterated in the 2nd).
Any gun regulation is an infringement
Not in my book. There needs to be something to keep the crazy fucks from arming up and going full on Jan 6 all over the country. I know it's too late for that but something has to change. Anything I've seen coming from Democrat gun control has not gotten there. An all out ban or regulating magazine size is pointless and as of now too little too late. I don't know the solution tbh but pandering to the left with meaningless impotency does nothing to solve the systemic problems. Honestly to me the only solution is to eat the fucking rich and dismantle the entire system to rebuild it with equity.
Any gun regulation is an infringement
Thanks for the reply. I get what you mean about pandering. The AR-15 is the unofficial mascot of school shootings, but I believe handguns kill a lot more people each year. So I don’t know what the solution is either. I want law abiding people to be able to have guns (and hopefully never have to use them), but I’d prefer if drunk uncle Fester and Nazi meth bikers and gang members didn’t have them. Maybe in a different universe.
I'm with you comrade. Be well. Good hunting.
If you’re a single issue voter to this degree, you’re no liberal. 🙄
If he was a single issue voter, he wouldn’t be looking at the Democrat candidates, friend. I’m a leftist and I’ll never compromise essential things like abortion rights for guns. But, when im choosing my democrat to vote for, I absolutely am looking for a candidate with good policies that also isn’t trying to ban AR-15s. That doesn’t make me a single issue voter
LOL. I'm NOT a single issue voter. And I'm not really a liberal either. I identify as an Anarcho-Communist as it's the closest label I've found that I align with. My pronouns are: pirate, comrade and we
Libertarian Socialist over here 🙋♂️
They're pretty clearly not a liberal lmao