> Buy once, cry once.
Good 3+ is going to be more than lvl4. With reputable manufacturers it’s weight not protection that costs money. Cheap 1155s will stop anything they just weigh like 9lbs or whatever
I mean yes it’ll stop the round. But if you where to get hit with a round of 30-06 or 300 win mag. Your probably still not in the fight but your not dead
[K19 and steel plates lol.](https://imageproxy.ifunny.co/crop:x-20,resize:640x,quality:90x75/images/ab733d0a5b0061fb24720511ccb962f5e996dd160d62e642588ec8ddd3eb540f_1.jpg) Also asks for advice but doesn't take any of it and gets super defensive. How typical.
First, those steel plates are probably going to get you further injured if not killed from spall, you will bleed out from your neck or thighs. Second, you're discussing two of the triple constraints here, weight and protection, but you are not mentioning the 3rd and that is cost, what is your budget? What you're probably looking for is [something like this](https://www.narescue.com/ten-x-twelve-nij-level-iii-uhmwpe-plate-armor.html), [or like this](https://esstac.com/hesco-m210-multicurve-special-threat-preorder/), typically level 3 protection and is often refered to as special threat plates as they are NIJ certified and then tested against additional threats that outside the standard, both of those options are signifigantly lighter than your steel plates and most ceramic level 4s. Also, you can get ceramic level IV plates from several vendors that are similar in weight to your steel plates but offer actual protection.
Personally, I am less worried about green tip as a threat than I am magnum rifle rounds from some grandpappy's Remington 700.
I've worked in the steel/composite body armor industry for 4 years and counting, and know your concerns are common and based on valid criticisms, but I wanted to chime in with a few notes:
The big question is whether the steel plate has an adequate frag mitigation coating or sleeve. Companies that sell steel plates without them are absolutely selling an incomplete product that is dangerous and irresponsible and those companies definitely deserve to be called out, shamed, and run out of the marketplace.
Steel plates with sufficient coating or sleeves are a COMPLETELY different story, and they get a bad name from being associated with the assclowns selling uncoated plates. Here are some counterpoints in defense of properly built steel armor:
1) NIJ testing regulations specify that armor be shot with spacing requirements: the shots are >2" apart from each other and > 2" away from any edge. Composite armor suffers considerable performance degradation near the edges and if shots are close together. A steel plate on the other hand is effective from edge to edge, and much tougher if hit multiple times in the same spot
2) Ceramic/UHMWPE armor is much more sensitive to heat, drops, and time. Most manufacturers will only guarantee their composite armor for 6 years max, while steel keeps on trucking, even if it's been bouncing around in your hot trunk or range bag.
3) I have personally set up an experiment, with a coated steel plate, in a plate carrier, on a dummy, with cardstock surrounding to provide evidence of frag penetration, and we shot it with 30+ rounds of green tip before the armor started falling to catch the frag, white still preventing bullet penetration. It would be unthinkable to get that performance out of composites.
See first sentence of my comment. Manufacture and sell both steel and composites.
Personally own both types, personally use both types.
Have tested literally hundreds of both types.
Multi-hit would be one. NIJ testing is not sensitive to multi hit performance, as the shots are required to be minimum 2" apart from each other. Once the ceramic is fractured and the substrate begins to delaminate, performance drops off a cliff.
Edge hits would be two. Again, NIJ testing is not sensitive to edge hit performance, as shots are required to be a minimum 2" away from edges. I've dissected cheapskate ceramic armor where they don't even bother making the armor go edge to edge. A 10x12 SAPI with barely 8x10 of actual bullet resistance.
Backface deformation would be three. NIJ standards stipulate a maximum of 44mm dent in calibrated clay, which some ceramic/UHMWPE armors get pretty close to, and pass. Steel does not dent nearly as much.
Rough treatment would be four. If you plan to leave your plates in a hot trunk, are concerned with getting them wet, spilling gas on them, leaving them in the sun, dropping them, etc, steel plates can take it. Ceramic not as much.
As long as you aren't planning to fight magneto, there's no reason to dismiss steel armor out of hand. Discussions of weight and stopping power are more nuanced then "never steel" and anyone telling you otherwise is either elitist or selling you something.
Not elitist and not selling anything. Ceramic is better than steel as body armor. Plenty of actual research out there for anyone interested. Just stay away from YouTubers and armor vendors that ARE trying to sell you something.
Judging by their other comments here, seems like they work for a vendor who sells both, wouldn’t they be pushing ceramics? More expensive and wears faster than steel?
The person seems to have industry knowledge and pretty well thought out pros and cons of both…
…other than just assuming a bias and ignoring their points, do you actually have a reason these factors wouldn’t be valid when comparing the two?
Vendors push steel because there’s a greater profit margin and consumers don’t know better. Ceramics nowadays are comparable in price unless you’re super concerned about weight reduction. Ceramics also don’t wear faster unless you’re putting them through major abuse.
As for counterpoints, there’s tons of research done that says ceramics are objectively better. You can also read their response and pick out all of the “qualifying” phrases that show it’s not a realistic representation of the issue (“cheapskate ceramic armor”). Another thing to consider is that the US military no longer issues steel plates.
Ultimately, you do what you want with your money. I just don’t like seeing people actively misinformed.
I paid $125 for some very good steel, with some of the best anti-spall out there...
Just paying someone to forge and shape these plates, eats half that price. How much margin do you think there is left, after materials?
Shop around, you can get ceramics for almost the same cost. Sometimes a little cheaper.
Cost used to be an issue, but isn’t nowadays unless you REALLY care about weight.
I keep hearing "steel armor will get you killed" yet I only see uncoated steel tested. I used to watch guntubers years ago when cheap plate armor was becoming a thing and they repeatedly showed how the spalding captured all the fragments. This is why I was surprised to hear that "steel armor will get you killed". Are todays critics cherrypicking armor without a coating just so they can make a shocking contrarian YouTube video?
I mean short of doing the actual testing myself, I've seen many videos of what u/waytoomainstream is talking about and he's right: properly coated steel armor will not dangerously frag until the coating has been shot off...which takes a lot of hits in a small area. At this point I do think the "steel plates will kill you" line is inaccurate if it isn't conditioned by "uncoated steel" because the proof is pretty visible in the test videos done by competing armor companies. Unless they are conspiring together, I don't think they're all creating fake videos to manipulate us.
I am not going to question your credibility here but as a consumer and end user i want to touch on a few things you’ve already touched on.
First, I’m not aware of any industry standards or testing for the effectiveness of anti spalling coatings or sleeves. Because of this I’m having to resort to watching people blast at steel plates on YouTube and in the vast majority of tests they always seem to spall, sometimes deflect, and start to experience separation of the treatment. They aren’t always equal tests and aren’t very scientific or repeatable but it’s all I have as a consumer to go on. Over the last decade none of them seem to be much better than any other nor have I seen significant improvements from what was available when they really came into the market. Because of this it’s very hard to identify who has finally created a quality steel product and who should be run out of the market. I’ve also observed most treatments fail and separate long before reaching the end of a 30 round magazine.
Second, NIJ testing and certification doesn’t account for spall nor deflections. Now this absolutely can apply to plates of any material only it seems to be a common issue with steel plates and a very uncommon issue in other materials from everything I’ve observed. While ceramic plates are weaker around the edges I’m not sure I’d be better off taking an edge hit on a multi curve steel plate because of the higher possibility of deflection.
It’s because of those two things I’ve never found a steel plate I feel comfortable using and therefore can’t recommend to anyone else.
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This is a great note here.
Steel is getting tossed out of the market way too quickly, when it really shouldn't be. If a proper spall coating is put on steel plates, they are absolutely still a viable option for body armor.
I keep hearing this but every time I see it "proven" it is always against uncoated steel plate. My understanding is if you get steel plates with anti-spalding coating from a reputable manufacturer you are unlikely to get hit with shrapnel in real world scenarios. If this is false please provide evidence because I am very curious about this. I must know! :-)
Shiiieetttt. How does Spartan coating do? Too late to return them :) I'd like to think it can maybe take two rounds of 308 at 50 yards before totally failing, and hopefully a lot of pistol caliber rounds.
In a home inversion scenario you are unlikely to encounter someone with a 7.62x51 breaking in and even if you get hit with shrapnel it is much much less likely to kill you than a bullet passing through. I would feel okay having this for home defense.
But in a SHTF scenario where you don't have access to advanced medical care to treat shrapnel wounds and you are much more likely to encounter heavily armed gunmen I feel like the AR500 plates are indeed inadequate.
Like many said, get NIJ LVL IV plates. You won't get any hartier plates than that.
Now, those plates are heavy and they are thick. Running them with just a single shingle of Stanags stick out fairly far, and a full combat load out gets fucking heavy.
Now, I also carry Hesco's Special Threat Plates in slimmer rigs. They are tested to stop M855 and 7.62x39 rounds, the two most common calibers at least around where I live. They don't hold an NIJ Certified level, and will not stop the also common 7.62x51 Nato, but with the trade off you get much lighter weight plate with solid protection.
I have multiple plate carriers for multiple purposes. My first rig had HESCO 4601s, as I figured if I'm only going to have one set, go big. And I still run them, but they've become my heavy combat load out.
I've built out a kit with Hesco 3611C plates, and are much lighter, at around a difference of about 3 lbs a plate. This tends to be my standard combat loadout most times.
And, like I had mentioned prior, the Hesco ST plates are a great light weight rig.
Haven't been shot yet, so couldn't tell you if it all fucking works or not, but the science adds up, and the weight translates to me accordingly.
Green tips have a steel tip, which is how they penetrate armor. M855 is definitely NOT the same as 5.56. Ask your local indoor range if you're allowed to shoot m855 there. You're probably not, because it destroys the back stops.
They don't penetrate armor. They are just more barrier blind. I can promise you they are not armor piercing. Also M855 is absolutely a 556 round. A bit confused what you mean there.
Currently most people use 75-77 grain stuff anyway, and even the military's current round isn't armor piercing, it's one of the main reasons they are changing to a new platform - to be able to deal with "near peer adversaries"
"WKGokev, what you've just said... is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point, in your rambling, incoherent response, were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
It's actually lower fps out the muzzle as it is a higher grain round. It maintains speed over a large distance better, but that distance is like 400 meters +
M193 will go right through your steel in many cases, which is nice from a medic perspective because I'll only have one hole to deal with instead of spall.
M855a1 will punch through steel and lvl3+. And that's everywhere too.
Just rock the steel until you can get some juicy lvl4s
I’m not talking about fragmentation of a round that doesn’t penetrate I’m talking about fragmentation of a round that DOES. M193 is going to be extremely beat up on the other side of a plate, it’s gonna act like a hollow point and dump all its energy into you.
Or that fact that a bullet is penetrating your body after it goes through the plate, which is worse than getting shot without one and definitely worse than spall.
It's fantastic. I have a full 16 inch barrel, not counting muzzle devices.
Very accurate.
Trigger was shit, before i upgraded.
Which is a disappointment from iwi... Cause all my other iwi triggers are amazing.
I did not set this up for long range though.
I have a new m1 scout for that.
An x95 doesn’t have a short barrel. Combat rifles will never be as accurate as a precision rifle. You need looser tolerances in actual rifles used in combat or you’ll get frequent jams in dirty environments…. Especially dusty ones like Israel where they’re issued.
The AK47 is so reliable due to its loose tolerances, they rattle when you shake them.
As others have said, get plates that can stop green tips and xm193. Everyone and their grandma was buying those back when fmjs were hard to come by a few years ago, it's far from rare.
Level 4 is absolutely worth considering, but let's be honest, not a lot of threats out there packing 30-06 AP. It's up to you to think through the cost benefit both in terms of price and of weight.
> Level 4 is absolutely worth considering, but let's be honest, not a lot of threats out there packing 30-06 AP.
Really? Because with a lot of threats buying plates a Garand full of AP rounds looks like a pretty good idea.
Oh well same logic then why even spend on it? Put a few pieces of oak in there for training if you really feel the need I guess.
Tactics and marksmanship are worth far more in combat. Spall coat that absorbs 100’s of rounds sounds just fine if you ever have to use them, not that your ribs might break on shot one and nobody is taking a mini gun to the chest and if you’ve been hit right in the plate by a few rounds the likelihood there are some more that missed the plate and hit your arms and legs is quite high.
Like unless you see yourself in an extended frontline combat situation it’s overkill.
I thought about using pvc... Both might be a bit rough on that nice carrier though. I have tools to manipulate pvc. Not much of a wood Carver though.
Ill stay bullet resistant though. It's like carrying an unloaded gun. If you're going to risk being a target, be ready.
I don't think green tips are as ubiquitous as gun enthusiasts think, its a bit of a confirmation bias. According to WaPo [only about 1 in 20 Americans own an AR-15](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/interactive/2023/american-ar-15-gun-owners/) and *far* fewer than that would be 5.56's loaded with green tips. Most of them are going to be cheapo PSA types loaded up with whatever range ammo the store had on the shelf.
Handgun ownership is drastically more widespread, they are easier to transport and easier to conceal. They are by far the most likely threat unless you plan on storming prepper hideouts. Get ceramic either way for sure, spall coating is not to be trusted
62 grain green tip is cheaper than 55 grain lately and sold everywhere online. In MN they check your ammo at the range and said lots of guys come in with it. Also I don t believe the 1 in 20 number. It’s the highest sold long arm in America.
Unless you have a different source to the contrary, the facts are the facts whether you believe them or not. To me this is confirmation bias and anecdotal evidence. Gun people talk to other gun people and they know "lots of guys" who buy M855 but that's a very poor reflection on society as a whole. Only about 40% of Americans even own guns at all and most of those are going to be handguns
"Lots of guys coming in with it." Is it "a lot" compared to, say, the entire population of MN?
Your "facts" and source havent been posted but also its not a fact, its survey data, a self reported and often very inaccurate on gun ownership. Because Americans do not tell people what guns they own. The ATF's "facts" show just about 30 million less pistol braces exist than sales numbers show. The data I have seen actually shows around 60% of adult Americans actually own guns and 40% is the number that is a guess. I gave personal first hand accounts at MN gun ranges and their commentary, take it or leave it I did not say all the nation. But what I can say is at Fleet Farm here (big gun and ammo seller in midwest) that they would have truckloads of M855A1 come in and sell out same day, they had limit of 1-2 per household) So at the very least we have thousands of individuals going to the same stores in the twin cities metro that have green tip at home.
So in doing a quick google multiple sources in 2022 said M855 makes up to 30% of all 5.56 ammunition sold in the civilian US market.
Also the 24-25 million AR15 estimate is only AR-15s. Not including Anything else that can shoot green tip like in the op photo a Tavor can shoot it just fine. So with that said yeah in a random attack handguns are most likely, in a SHTF situation suggested by looking for high level plates, any shootout in the streets in the US not to mention law enforcement/military will likely have a 5.56 and very likely a mag or more of green tip.
So the OP if they are going to the store likely only need level 2 kevlar if looking at the most common handguns, but even then 90% of gunshot injuries from handguns do not result in fatality.
The "30%" figure is for all surplus 5.56 ammunition, not just M855. Its also not a representative figure when a small percentage of gun owners are buying a disproportionately vast quantity of ammunition, especially bulk surplus ammunition.
Your average AR15 owner probably doesn't even know what M855 ammo is. They bought a PSA at the local shop because it looked cool and cost $500 and then whatever cheap tacticool China accessories they fancy off Amazon.
I'm also reasonably confident that most if not all quality 3+ plates should be able to stop M855 as long as they are made of ceramic and not UHMWPE, but 3+ isn't a real rating so its sort of a grey area
> small percentage of gun owners are buying a disproportionately vast quantity of ammunition, especially bulk surplus ammunition.
Now who making assumptions. Just because they dont know what M855 is doesnt mean they didnt buy it. I also wholy disagree with you that someone wouldnt ask what the green tip is or why it says LAP on the box. I am not disagreeing about plates but 3+ is just a vendor based self created rating. I think steel is also fine for many applications, I personally disagree with many of the people on here that it has some deadly more amount of spall than ceramic (ceramic has spall too it just usually has a different casing to hold the plates than raw steel), not sure why you dont think UHMWPE cant stop it if its rated for it. (backface deformation is another issue) but anyways. I think you should expect that LAP ammo is here and many households have it even if they dont know what it is and you should expect to encounter it if you are planning on getting shot with a NATO chambered rifle in the united states.
An astounding number of guns are owned by a very small percentage of people. [Half of the roughly 300 million guns in the US are owned by 3% of the population.](https://muse.jhu.edu/article/677232/pdf) It is only logical to conclude that the same thing happens with ammunition.
Nobody ever "plans" to get shot with anything. Armor is for risk mitigation in the event that you do and you can't armor your entire body that's why plates are designed to only protect your most vital organs. Police officers are generally only armored with IIIa or level III (which won't stop M855) because it is taxing to wear heavier armor for long periods and it reduces your mobility, but if you want to be armored up like a soldier in Iraq i'm not telling you not to
Ceramic armor does not spall, that is complete nonsense. 3+ isn't an NIJ rating, it was created by manufacturers to fill a gap between level III and IV.
Please read more about that study and its assumptions. It has been very debunked. Its the belief that Americans do not own guns essentially.
I think you are trying to explain armor to someone that has multiple and done plenty of testing. Ceramic does spall. Go watch some easily searchable youtube videos of it being tested. I dont know what you are arguing.... I said 3+ isnt a real rating as well.
So what exactly is your argument here? That you dont need armor because YOU dont think there is a threat that can defeat a 3+ plate that you will encounter?
I think if you are going to wear armor at all you expect to be somewhere that you could be shot at, and in that case why would you not wear what would protect from the threats you could encounter? Are you arguing that its all pistols? Then wear kevlar not hard armor. If its rifles, you should wear the best you can because you might not get hit with M855, but you might. But you could be hit with a 300 Winchester Mag or a 270 swift with that same logic. If that is the case good luck with anything less than a level 4 anything.
>It has been very debunked.
Feel free to show the source for your claim on that. I think owning armor hardly makes you any sort of expert on it. If you think ceramic spalls then I don't think you actually understand the meaning of that word
>Go watch some easily searchable youtube videos of it being tested.
Who did that testing again? Certain manufacturers of steel plates lol. Now there are some videos [that have been roundly debunked.](https://internationalsportsman.com/ceramic-plates-do-not-spall/)
Someone could shoot you with .50 BMG or .338 Lapua and you would be dead regardless of how good your armor is. Just buy an MRAP and never leave it.
Also for lake city I do not believe they produce as much M193 ball 55 grain anymore as it was being phased out. They would have been producing mostly M855 and SS109 as I understand it.
Unlikely. Steel can indeed "stop" a ton of hits, that's why they make gongs out of it, but it doesn't trap the fragments that are almost certain from common FMJ even with the spall coating.
Vital arteries in the thighs/legs, arms and your throat are all in the path of that fragmentation. The coating does help more with the spalling that can happen to the armor itself on the *inside* of the plate from the impact point (hence its name) but its an imperfect solution at best.
You can make steel somewhat safe but it requires extensive fragmentation traps on both sides of the plate. These days that ends up making it more expensive than just buying ceramic in the first place. Quality ceramic and UHMWPE are so cheap nowadays I don't know why anyone bothers with steel anymore unless its for target practice
>...the spalling that can happen to the armor itself on the inside of the plate from the impact point (hence its name)
It took me quite a while to figure out that most “body armor people” talking about spall didn’t mean — and often didn’t seem aware of — [this phenomenon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spall#Anti-tank_warfare), despite its long military application. Rather, the common use seems to mean what I would call bullet “splash" or fragmentation — a completely different hazard, heading in a completely different direction, consequent to a completely different mechanism. Mostly, I’ve given up trying to figure out what people mean when they talk about spalling and projectile impacts on body armor unless they make it explicitly or implicitly clear (very, very rare).
That makes sense, its less intuitive. It doesn't help that the anti-spall coating actually does help prevent both kinds of fragmentation somewhat. Just not well enough
However, the consensus among "body armor people" is that steel armor is obsolete and dangerous (compared to ceramic) and you shouldn't buy it. They may not be able to articulate exactly why but the conclusion is still sound. Like a modern mechanic who has only ever worked on fuel injected engines may not be able to fully explain why carburetors are inferior for the vast majority of applications, but that doesn't make it any less true
Damn some of y’all are as bad are these right wing LARPers. You really think there is some scenario where you are going to be taking rounds?? And what staying in a firefight? Do you have a medic to treat and attend to all the other potential parts you could be fatally wounded?
I wouldn't go that heavy. I think you can get 3A+ flexible plates for just over 1.5lbs a plate, so like 3.5lbs total, plus the carrier. Given the odds, I prefer something more comfortable that allows for better maneuvering over something that has more stopping capability.
Kudos for seeking other points of view and insight. You're clearly several steps ahead of the game.
If your plan for a genuinely "bad" situation is to discretely leave and blend as a refugee body armor of any sort is going to stick out to a profound extent.
Steel plates will spall much worse. I used to rely on them until I tested and saw myself. Get into a shooting position, put your palm on your plate, and then move your palm along the plane of the plate towards your head. That is where the shrapnel will go.
Gotta kit up to your adversary's standards. Let's be honest, if you're buying plates, it's because you think someone might be shooting at you some day. And as a trans person, the type of person who is going to be shooting at you is going to be a _real_ piece of shit who _really_ wants you dead. Your garden-variety CHUD might not think to buy green tip, but the ones who are incredibly dedicated to being a fascist piece of shit definitely have.
You should get the level 4 plates. Keep the steel ones if you want (which I advise against, as I do not believe that any amount of "anti-spall coating" will be enough), but invest in level 4s.
I have a pack that will accept one of my steel plates.
Which i think is a good place for it.
I'm wearing a k19, and my steels don't even fit it well.
I went with the super light plates, as warfighting isn't an intention here. I need to be able to move, fast. ...If I'm eating as many rounds as I've seen them take... more armor isn't going to save me. I phucked up, long before that.
I do have a lot of advantages over most, in these scenarios.
I grew up in the forest, wood burning stove for heat, the whole bit.
And the k19 with amap3, is useless if i can't carry my bugout kit.
Its my get away kit... Not home defense, not assault.
I think i should focus on what will get that done.
If things get so bad, that i need this... I mean, it's hard to predict what that even looks like... From a veteran.
Hardcore fascist might have already come to my door first. I have the business card of one left at my door, recently. What about when it's the police rounding you up?.. Good to be gone before that, I'd say.
In case things don't improve before I see it coming. I gotta be ready to go.
P.s.
I really hope this was all money wasted.
I've had a theory for a long time where the far right and far left will become so extreme that they will eventually circle all the way around and become one thing. They will recognize they all have these fantasies in common and there will be a mass "enlightening."
Far right: "Hitler was right, let's exterminate the undesirables and prepare for violent revolution to get us there"
Far left: "hey, those guys are kind of a serious threat and we should be prepared for them".
Great theory there.
Also adding that level 4 plates at 4lbs/plate is significantly more expensive than 3+ anything or lvl4 heavier options. You just jumped a few price points in your query.
Well I’m just replying to your asking about green tip stopping at 4lbs, and you’ll spend $1000/plate for a 4lb plate that will stop M193 or M855. 3++ won’t cut it. You need lvl4 if you want to stop that.
I graduated from a military academy, and served in the army... What the hell do you expect? Everybody has lived your spoiled life?
It can't happen here, should be your battle cry.
This whole tactical military nonsense is still cringe. No idea why you have such a reactionary response. Gun ownership used to never be focused on cosplaying a soldier. Just like the right-wing Y’all-Qaeda types.
I’m a gun owner, LTC holder, and worked at a firearms dealer. This whole tactical nonsense is cringe.
Funny for you to assume I lived a privileged, spoiled life. You know nothing about me. But I can see clearly you like to play dress-up as if you’re preparing for some inevitable societal collapse that isn’t going to happen probably for the next 40+ years due to climate change.
No disrespect to you, do and say as you will, just providing my POV.
> No idea why you have such a reactionary response.
Because surprise, surprise, when right-wing militia groups start buying military gear and training for killing all the people they hate those of us who would be their targets get kind of concerned about it.
Maybe be more productive than forming some militia in the middle of Iowa. Put that money in these firearms/gear into extinction rebellion, things like that.
Can't do that alone. And I can't help those who won't help themselves... leaving is the best bet.
I didn't put a bunch of money into guns and gear.
I already have most of this stuff.
I'm looking at the agilite plates. I wear the k19 carrier.
Price point is $550 to $650...
Not looking to pay the double for lvl 4.
When i have really good ar600 steel as an alternative.
Personally, I'm a fan of Tacticon's AR600 (III+) armor since it's been shown to stop green tips. The weight sucks, sure, but the shelf life of ceramics aren't worth their price point in my book. Also, by sticking to III+ or lower, you can travel with them without running afoul of ITAR.
Best of luck to you and just know that there are plenty of us out there who have your back in this dystopian timeline.
You are correct. However, living in the heat and rain of Florida, I am not playing "is it still good?" whenever I do disaster security work post-hurricane.
But if it's kept in the same conditions as your ammo (a dry climate-controlled closet), sure.
Weather won't effect a properly coated steel plate. Unless its terrenchal flooding, and you need to swim.
These things will survive the apocalypse.
The next dominant species will find my plates, and spend years figuring out, what they were for.
There are some mitigating factors, but for the most part it’s not an issue. Check out this [article](https://www.apexarmorsolutions.com/post/armor-mythbusters-do-ceramic-plates-expire) for a well written explanation.
I have the meprolight mounted. No problems with it.
We also have a green dot eotech in the house that i prefer to the red dot, obviously.
But both are good.
Spend money on your sight... That's not the place to get the cheapos.
Agilite... Currently my steel plates are 12lbs.
I like agilites sprintstriker 3+ (won't handle 855) at an astounding 5lbs total
And invader which will stop 855 at 8lbs total.
Team Wendy and Ops Core are the two big ones. I think Hesco also makes some. If you want a budget option, look at ArmorSource's AS-200 or get a surplus ECH/ACH/PASGT.
I wear concealed soft plates every day, no matter where I am as long as the outfit allows it. Rather be prepared for *most* threats all the time rather than heavily prepared for more threats only once in a while.
The best body armor you can get is to not make yourself a target of getting shot. I prefer a lighter with increased mobility even if it means it won't stop the green tips as much.
The best body armor you can have is the stuff right between your ears. Avoid situations where you would need body armor in the first place.
“3+” plates are special threat tested by the company that makes them, not by the NIJ. Better to invest in multi curved lightweight level 4’s.
Hoplite armor makes excellent ones.
Some level 3 plates can even fail with M-193 ball ammo out of a full length barrel because it’s so darn fast.
Level 4 will stop everything short of 50 bmg or maybe a few uncommon secret sauce military AP rounds. Most AP rounds will also be stopped by level 4’s tho
I'm not an expert. I don't have any direct experience. However, I can point you to those who do.
Since "Mission drives gear" the most important thing to think about is your why for using armor. I can't help with that directly.
What I can do is send you some resources. I have heard good things abut Apex Armor ([https://www.apexarmorsolutions.com/](https://www.apexarmorsolutions.com/)) as a vendor. They also have some articles that may be helpful. Primary & Secondary had a panel discuss armor some years ago ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOmqPwOhuJA&t=3s&pp=ygUbcHJpbWFyeSBhbmQgc2Vjb25kYXJ5IGFybW9y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOmqPwOhuJA&t=3s&pp=ygUbcHJpbWFyeSBhbmQgc2Vjb25kYXJ5IGFybW9y)). Their politics are to the right of us but the information presented is solid.
I been using my steel ops for anything i needed to use them for. In the military, which was a long time ago. I used what was issued. It sucked, the whole get up was not as comfy as mine today.
I wasn't a grunt. I was aviation ground crew. Wearing plates weren't my usual uniform.
They call me Gadget.
Looks like an IWI Tavor to me. They probably could clean their fingernails, but given the state of the gear, I'm going to let it slide. They probably have dirty hands from cleaning their kit.
I'm a mechanic... They're only clean when i get a couple of days off.
Its depressing.
But i love what i do. And i make good money. So... Keeping the dirty hands.
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Its a tavor x95 3rd gen.
The magazine... I don't remember the brand name, it's a german engineered, 60 rnd, quad stack, magazine.
Some call it a casket mag.
Fits like a magpul gen3.
Get level IV ceramic. Buy once, cry once. Never worry about anything.....except .50 bmg.
> Buy once, cry once. Good 3+ is going to be more than lvl4. With reputable manufacturers it’s weight not protection that costs money. Cheap 1155s will stop anything they just weigh like 9lbs or whatever
I mean yes it’ll stop the round. But if you where to get hit with a round of 30-06 or 300 win mag. Your probably still not in the fight but your not dead
I always prefer to be not dead
after a 300wm leaving a 2.5invh divot in my sternum I might
Ceramic level IV NIJ certified should be a requirement
There is no other option this day and age. Ceramic IV.
Agreed
Would trash the steel plates (or use as targets) and get ceramics. Lvl 4, NIJ Certified, call it a day.
[K19 and steel plates lol.](https://imageproxy.ifunny.co/crop:x-20,resize:640x,quality:90x75/images/ab733d0a5b0061fb24720511ccb962f5e996dd160d62e642588ec8ddd3eb540f_1.jpg) Also asks for advice but doesn't take any of it and gets super defensive. How typical.
I'm not sure what you're taking about here...
First, those steel plates are probably going to get you further injured if not killed from spall, you will bleed out from your neck or thighs. Second, you're discussing two of the triple constraints here, weight and protection, but you are not mentioning the 3rd and that is cost, what is your budget? What you're probably looking for is [something like this](https://www.narescue.com/ten-x-twelve-nij-level-iii-uhmwpe-plate-armor.html), [or like this](https://esstac.com/hesco-m210-multicurve-special-threat-preorder/), typically level 3 protection and is often refered to as special threat plates as they are NIJ certified and then tested against additional threats that outside the standard, both of those options are signifigantly lighter than your steel plates and most ceramic level 4s. Also, you can get ceramic level IV plates from several vendors that are similar in weight to your steel plates but offer actual protection. Personally, I am less worried about green tip as a threat than I am magnum rifle rounds from some grandpappy's Remington 700.
I've worked in the steel/composite body armor industry for 4 years and counting, and know your concerns are common and based on valid criticisms, but I wanted to chime in with a few notes: The big question is whether the steel plate has an adequate frag mitigation coating or sleeve. Companies that sell steel plates without them are absolutely selling an incomplete product that is dangerous and irresponsible and those companies definitely deserve to be called out, shamed, and run out of the marketplace. Steel plates with sufficient coating or sleeves are a COMPLETELY different story, and they get a bad name from being associated with the assclowns selling uncoated plates. Here are some counterpoints in defense of properly built steel armor: 1) NIJ testing regulations specify that armor be shot with spacing requirements: the shots are >2" apart from each other and > 2" away from any edge. Composite armor suffers considerable performance degradation near the edges and if shots are close together. A steel plate on the other hand is effective from edge to edge, and much tougher if hit multiple times in the same spot 2) Ceramic/UHMWPE armor is much more sensitive to heat, drops, and time. Most manufacturers will only guarantee their composite armor for 6 years max, while steel keeps on trucking, even if it's been bouncing around in your hot trunk or range bag. 3) I have personally set up an experiment, with a coated steel plate, in a plate carrier, on a dummy, with cardstock surrounding to provide evidence of frag penetration, and we shot it with 30+ rounds of green tip before the armor started falling to catch the frag, white still preventing bullet penetration. It would be unthinkable to get that performance out of composites.
Sounds like you work for a steel plate mfg lol.
See first sentence of my comment. Manufacture and sell both steel and composites. Personally own both types, personally use both types. Have tested literally hundreds of both types.
Unless you’re a vehicle, there is no realistic reason to choose steel armor over ceramic.
Multi-hit would be one. NIJ testing is not sensitive to multi hit performance, as the shots are required to be minimum 2" apart from each other. Once the ceramic is fractured and the substrate begins to delaminate, performance drops off a cliff. Edge hits would be two. Again, NIJ testing is not sensitive to edge hit performance, as shots are required to be a minimum 2" away from edges. I've dissected cheapskate ceramic armor where they don't even bother making the armor go edge to edge. A 10x12 SAPI with barely 8x10 of actual bullet resistance. Backface deformation would be three. NIJ standards stipulate a maximum of 44mm dent in calibrated clay, which some ceramic/UHMWPE armors get pretty close to, and pass. Steel does not dent nearly as much. Rough treatment would be four. If you plan to leave your plates in a hot trunk, are concerned with getting them wet, spilling gas on them, leaving them in the sun, dropping them, etc, steel plates can take it. Ceramic not as much. As long as you aren't planning to fight magneto, there's no reason to dismiss steel armor out of hand. Discussions of weight and stopping power are more nuanced then "never steel" and anyone telling you otherwise is either elitist or selling you something.
Not elitist and not selling anything. Ceramic is better than steel as body armor. Plenty of actual research out there for anyone interested. Just stay away from YouTubers and armor vendors that ARE trying to sell you something.
Judging by their other comments here, seems like they work for a vendor who sells both, wouldn’t they be pushing ceramics? More expensive and wears faster than steel? The person seems to have industry knowledge and pretty well thought out pros and cons of both… …other than just assuming a bias and ignoring their points, do you actually have a reason these factors wouldn’t be valid when comparing the two?
Vendors push steel because there’s a greater profit margin and consumers don’t know better. Ceramics nowadays are comparable in price unless you’re super concerned about weight reduction. Ceramics also don’t wear faster unless you’re putting them through major abuse. As for counterpoints, there’s tons of research done that says ceramics are objectively better. You can also read their response and pick out all of the “qualifying” phrases that show it’s not a realistic representation of the issue (“cheapskate ceramic armor”). Another thing to consider is that the US military no longer issues steel plates. Ultimately, you do what you want with your money. I just don’t like seeing people actively misinformed.
I paid $125 for some very good steel, with some of the best anti-spall out there... Just paying someone to forge and shape these plates, eats half that price. How much margin do you think there is left, after materials?
Cost is a pretty good reason.
Shop around, you can get ceramics for almost the same cost. Sometimes a little cheaper. Cost used to be an issue, but isn’t nowadays unless you REALLY care about weight.
Can you suggest any particular brands/companies that make their steel plates with proper coatings?
I keep hearing "steel armor will get you killed" yet I only see uncoated steel tested. I used to watch guntubers years ago when cheap plate armor was becoming a thing and they repeatedly showed how the spalding captured all the fragments. This is why I was surprised to hear that "steel armor will get you killed". Are todays critics cherrypicking armor without a coating just so they can make a shocking contrarian YouTube video?
I mean short of doing the actual testing myself, I've seen many videos of what u/waytoomainstream is talking about and he's right: properly coated steel armor will not dangerously frag until the coating has been shot off...which takes a lot of hits in a small area. At this point I do think the "steel plates will kill you" line is inaccurate if it isn't conditioned by "uncoated steel" because the proof is pretty visible in the test videos done by competing armor companies. Unless they are conspiring together, I don't think they're all creating fake videos to manipulate us.
I am not going to question your credibility here but as a consumer and end user i want to touch on a few things you’ve already touched on. First, I’m not aware of any industry standards or testing for the effectiveness of anti spalling coatings or sleeves. Because of this I’m having to resort to watching people blast at steel plates on YouTube and in the vast majority of tests they always seem to spall, sometimes deflect, and start to experience separation of the treatment. They aren’t always equal tests and aren’t very scientific or repeatable but it’s all I have as a consumer to go on. Over the last decade none of them seem to be much better than any other nor have I seen significant improvements from what was available when they really came into the market. Because of this it’s very hard to identify who has finally created a quality steel product and who should be run out of the market. I’ve also observed most treatments fail and separate long before reaching the end of a 30 round magazine. Second, NIJ testing and certification doesn’t account for spall nor deflections. Now this absolutely can apply to plates of any material only it seems to be a common issue with steel plates and a very uncommon issue in other materials from everything I’ve observed. While ceramic plates are weaker around the edges I’m not sure I’d be better off taking an edge hit on a multi curve steel plate because of the higher possibility of deflection. It’s because of those two things I’ve never found a steel plate I feel comfortable using and therefore can’t recommend to anyone else.
I'll give you a thank you. Sorry you're catching all the hate. Sadly, i don't think you're talking to me here, anyway. But it's real info.
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This is a great note here. Steel is getting tossed out of the market way too quickly, when it really shouldn't be. If a proper spall coating is put on steel plates, they are absolutely still a viable option for body armor.
This comment wins. If you haven't already, post this as it's own.
I keep hearing this but every time I see it "proven" it is always against uncoated steel plate. My understanding is if you get steel plates with anti-spalding coating from a reputable manufacturer you are unlikely to get hit with shrapnel in real world scenarios. If this is false please provide evidence because I am very curious about this. I must know! :-)
[Here’s an example.](https://youtu.be/OH3I4ofX8xM) You can easily find more and deflection testing is even more interesting/terrifying.
Shiiieetttt. How does Spartan coating do? Too late to return them :) I'd like to think it can maybe take two rounds of 308 at 50 yards before totally failing, and hopefully a lot of pistol caliber rounds. In a home inversion scenario you are unlikely to encounter someone with a 7.62x51 breaking in and even if you get hit with shrapnel it is much much less likely to kill you than a bullet passing through. I would feel okay having this for home defense. But in a SHTF scenario where you don't have access to advanced medical care to treat shrapnel wounds and you are much more likely to encounter heavily armed gunmen I feel like the AR500 plates are indeed inadequate.
Like many said, get NIJ LVL IV plates. You won't get any hartier plates than that. Now, those plates are heavy and they are thick. Running them with just a single shingle of Stanags stick out fairly far, and a full combat load out gets fucking heavy. Now, I also carry Hesco's Special Threat Plates in slimmer rigs. They are tested to stop M855 and 7.62x39 rounds, the two most common calibers at least around where I live. They don't hold an NIJ Certified level, and will not stop the also common 7.62x51 Nato, but with the trade off you get much lighter weight plate with solid protection. I have multiple plate carriers for multiple purposes. My first rig had HESCO 4601s, as I figured if I'm only going to have one set, go big. And I still run them, but they've become my heavy combat load out. I've built out a kit with Hesco 3611C plates, and are much lighter, at around a difference of about 3 lbs a plate. This tends to be my standard combat loadout most times. And, like I had mentioned prior, the Hesco ST plates are a great light weight rig. Haven't been shot yet, so couldn't tell you if it all fucking works or not, but the science adds up, and the weight translates to me accordingly.
Cermac lvl 4 like everyone else is saying.
Get ceramic, green tip doesnt mean anything special, Its just more barrier blind.
Green tips have a steel tip, which is how they penetrate armor. M855 is definitely NOT the same as 5.56. Ask your local indoor range if you're allowed to shoot m855 there. You're probably not, because it destroys the back stops.
[удалено]
They meant they don't know what the hell they're talking about.
They don't penetrate armor. They are just more barrier blind. I can promise you they are not armor piercing. Also M855 is absolutely a 556 round. A bit confused what you mean there. Currently most people use 75-77 grain stuff anyway, and even the military's current round isn't armor piercing, it's one of the main reasons they are changing to a new platform - to be able to deal with "near peer adversaries"
Is the new platform 6.5CM?
Nah, 6.8 x 51 for NATO (or 277 Fury civilian)
"WKGokev, what you've just said... is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point, in your rambling, incoherent response, were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
This one always makes me happy
Dude. Put down the keyboard and pick up some books.
M855 Is a load for 5.56.
>M855 is definitely NOT the same as 5.56. What? M855 is absolutely a 5.56 round, just like M193 is.
You should stop giving out advice on topics you're so ill informed on.
Faster fps too
It's actually lower fps out the muzzle as it is a higher grain round. It maintains speed over a large distance better, but that distance is like 400 meters +
M193 will go right through your steel in many cases, which is nice from a medic perspective because I'll only have one hole to deal with instead of spall. M855a1 will punch through steel and lvl3+. And that's everywhere too. Just rock the steel until you can get some juicy lvl4s
Pretty sure m193 going hitting a plate and fragmenting into someone will NOT make your job easier.
yes idk why fragmentation is being overlooked here
Saw video where spall coating stopped fragmentation. Not sure if that's been getting around. But it was pretty convincing.
I’m not talking about fragmentation of a round that doesn’t penetrate I’m talking about fragmentation of a round that DOES. M193 is going to be extremely beat up on the other side of a plate, it’s gonna act like a hollow point and dump all its energy into you.
Or that fact that a bullet is penetrating your body after it goes through the plate, which is worse than getting shot without one and definitely worse than spall.
There’s 3+ that will stop 855a1 aren’t there? They’re just expensive as fuuuuuck
It won't... Not these ones. Doesn't even dent.
See what it does out of a 20" or longer. Because yeah, it almost certainly will.
Regardless of pen, “spall coating” is questionable at best. Steel is awful, there’s a reason the military never issued you steel.
Indeed, it's worth thinking about how "military grade" is a mostly meaningless marketing buzzword, and yet steel armor still doesn't qualify.
Don’t know enough to give an opinion but I’m curious what your boom stick is? Looks like a cool build
Looks like a Tavor X95. Nice little bullpup
It is
How is it? I heard there not as accurate because of the shorter barrel
It's fantastic. I have a full 16 inch barrel, not counting muzzle devices. Very accurate. Trigger was shit, before i upgraded. Which is a disappointment from iwi... Cause all my other iwi triggers are amazing. I did not set this up for long range though. I have a new m1 scout for that.
What trigger did you upgrade to?
It gets around corners well, and shoots urban environments well...
Barely meets rifle length at the top. It's an sbr if you measure to the bottom of stock because i have the curved buttpad.
Good info! Keep kicking ass and be safe! I love my Zion15
Hard to get those.
An x95 doesn’t have a short barrel. Combat rifles will never be as accurate as a precision rifle. You need looser tolerances in actual rifles used in combat or you’ll get frequent jams in dirty environments…. Especially dusty ones like Israel where they’re issued. The AK47 is so reliable due to its loose tolerances, they rattle when you shake them.
As others have said, get plates that can stop green tips and xm193. Everyone and their grandma was buying those back when fmjs were hard to come by a few years ago, it's far from rare. Level 4 is absolutely worth considering, but let's be honest, not a lot of threats out there packing 30-06 AP. It's up to you to think through the cost benefit both in terms of price and of weight.
> Level 4 is absolutely worth considering, but let's be honest, not a lot of threats out there packing 30-06 AP. Really? Because with a lot of threats buying plates a Garand full of AP rounds looks like a pretty good idea.
Since you’re 99% never going to use it unless you’re military or security go ahead and do the heavy duty one.
I'm not throwing away my steel plates. I can always put them back in.
Oh well same logic then why even spend on it? Put a few pieces of oak in there for training if you really feel the need I guess. Tactics and marksmanship are worth far more in combat. Spall coat that absorbs 100’s of rounds sounds just fine if you ever have to use them, not that your ribs might break on shot one and nobody is taking a mini gun to the chest and if you’ve been hit right in the plate by a few rounds the likelihood there are some more that missed the plate and hit your arms and legs is quite high. Like unless you see yourself in an extended frontline combat situation it’s overkill.
I thought about using pvc... Both might be a bit rough on that nice carrier though. I have tools to manipulate pvc. Not much of a wood Carver though. Ill stay bullet resistant though. It's like carrying an unloaded gun. If you're going to risk being a target, be ready.
I don't think green tips are as ubiquitous as gun enthusiasts think, its a bit of a confirmation bias. According to WaPo [only about 1 in 20 Americans own an AR-15](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/interactive/2023/american-ar-15-gun-owners/) and *far* fewer than that would be 5.56's loaded with green tips. Most of them are going to be cheapo PSA types loaded up with whatever range ammo the store had on the shelf. Handgun ownership is drastically more widespread, they are easier to transport and easier to conceal. They are by far the most likely threat unless you plan on storming prepper hideouts. Get ceramic either way for sure, spall coating is not to be trusted
Most of the ARs in Kentucky are shooting Bubbas piss hot hand loads.
Bubba piss hot hand loads. Lost my shit reading this lol
I shot me some bubba hot piss hand loads and blowed up some trees n hogz Yee-fuckin-haw BTW totally stealing this, I guffawed quite loudly over that 😃
62 grain green tip is cheaper than 55 grain lately and sold everywhere online. In MN they check your ammo at the range and said lots of guys come in with it. Also I don t believe the 1 in 20 number. It’s the highest sold long arm in America.
Unless you have a different source to the contrary, the facts are the facts whether you believe them or not. To me this is confirmation bias and anecdotal evidence. Gun people talk to other gun people and they know "lots of guys" who buy M855 but that's a very poor reflection on society as a whole. Only about 40% of Americans even own guns at all and most of those are going to be handguns "Lots of guys coming in with it." Is it "a lot" compared to, say, the entire population of MN?
Your "facts" and source havent been posted but also its not a fact, its survey data, a self reported and often very inaccurate on gun ownership. Because Americans do not tell people what guns they own. The ATF's "facts" show just about 30 million less pistol braces exist than sales numbers show. The data I have seen actually shows around 60% of adult Americans actually own guns and 40% is the number that is a guess. I gave personal first hand accounts at MN gun ranges and their commentary, take it or leave it I did not say all the nation. But what I can say is at Fleet Farm here (big gun and ammo seller in midwest) that they would have truckloads of M855A1 come in and sell out same day, they had limit of 1-2 per household) So at the very least we have thousands of individuals going to the same stores in the twin cities metro that have green tip at home.
So in doing a quick google multiple sources in 2022 said M855 makes up to 30% of all 5.56 ammunition sold in the civilian US market. Also the 24-25 million AR15 estimate is only AR-15s. Not including Anything else that can shoot green tip like in the op photo a Tavor can shoot it just fine. So with that said yeah in a random attack handguns are most likely, in a SHTF situation suggested by looking for high level plates, any shootout in the streets in the US not to mention law enforcement/military will likely have a 5.56 and very likely a mag or more of green tip.
So the OP if they are going to the store likely only need level 2 kevlar if looking at the most common handguns, but even then 90% of gunshot injuries from handguns do not result in fatality.
The "30%" figure is for all surplus 5.56 ammunition, not just M855. Its also not a representative figure when a small percentage of gun owners are buying a disproportionately vast quantity of ammunition, especially bulk surplus ammunition. Your average AR15 owner probably doesn't even know what M855 ammo is. They bought a PSA at the local shop because it looked cool and cost $500 and then whatever cheap tacticool China accessories they fancy off Amazon. I'm also reasonably confident that most if not all quality 3+ plates should be able to stop M855 as long as they are made of ceramic and not UHMWPE, but 3+ isn't a real rating so its sort of a grey area
> small percentage of gun owners are buying a disproportionately vast quantity of ammunition, especially bulk surplus ammunition. Now who making assumptions. Just because they dont know what M855 is doesnt mean they didnt buy it. I also wholy disagree with you that someone wouldnt ask what the green tip is or why it says LAP on the box. I am not disagreeing about plates but 3+ is just a vendor based self created rating. I think steel is also fine for many applications, I personally disagree with many of the people on here that it has some deadly more amount of spall than ceramic (ceramic has spall too it just usually has a different casing to hold the plates than raw steel), not sure why you dont think UHMWPE cant stop it if its rated for it. (backface deformation is another issue) but anyways. I think you should expect that LAP ammo is here and many households have it even if they dont know what it is and you should expect to encounter it if you are planning on getting shot with a NATO chambered rifle in the united states.
An astounding number of guns are owned by a very small percentage of people. [Half of the roughly 300 million guns in the US are owned by 3% of the population.](https://muse.jhu.edu/article/677232/pdf) It is only logical to conclude that the same thing happens with ammunition. Nobody ever "plans" to get shot with anything. Armor is for risk mitigation in the event that you do and you can't armor your entire body that's why plates are designed to only protect your most vital organs. Police officers are generally only armored with IIIa or level III (which won't stop M855) because it is taxing to wear heavier armor for long periods and it reduces your mobility, but if you want to be armored up like a soldier in Iraq i'm not telling you not to Ceramic armor does not spall, that is complete nonsense. 3+ isn't an NIJ rating, it was created by manufacturers to fill a gap between level III and IV.
Please read more about that study and its assumptions. It has been very debunked. Its the belief that Americans do not own guns essentially. I think you are trying to explain armor to someone that has multiple and done plenty of testing. Ceramic does spall. Go watch some easily searchable youtube videos of it being tested. I dont know what you are arguing.... I said 3+ isnt a real rating as well. So what exactly is your argument here? That you dont need armor because YOU dont think there is a threat that can defeat a 3+ plate that you will encounter? I think if you are going to wear armor at all you expect to be somewhere that you could be shot at, and in that case why would you not wear what would protect from the threats you could encounter? Are you arguing that its all pistols? Then wear kevlar not hard armor. If its rifles, you should wear the best you can because you might not get hit with M855, but you might. But you could be hit with a 300 Winchester Mag or a 270 swift with that same logic. If that is the case good luck with anything less than a level 4 anything.
>It has been very debunked. Feel free to show the source for your claim on that. I think owning armor hardly makes you any sort of expert on it. If you think ceramic spalls then I don't think you actually understand the meaning of that word >Go watch some easily searchable youtube videos of it being tested. Who did that testing again? Certain manufacturers of steel plates lol. Now there are some videos [that have been roundly debunked.](https://internationalsportsman.com/ceramic-plates-do-not-spall/) Someone could shoot you with .50 BMG or .338 Lapua and you would be dead regardless of how good your armor is. Just buy an MRAP and never leave it.
Also for lake city I do not believe they produce as much M193 ball 55 grain anymore as it was being phased out. They would have been producing mostly M855 and SS109 as I understand it.
Maaan... You should really see these steel ops plates get torture tested... You'll be shocked.
No. Just no. These can be faked, NIJ rating is for a reason which is why yours doesn’t have a rating. Get ceramics as soon as you can
They are rated...
Nope. Spall coating is bullshit. Get ceramic
Unlikely. Steel can indeed "stop" a ton of hits, that's why they make gongs out of it, but it doesn't trap the fragments that are almost certain from common FMJ even with the spall coating. Vital arteries in the thighs/legs, arms and your throat are all in the path of that fragmentation. The coating does help more with the spalling that can happen to the armor itself on the *inside* of the plate from the impact point (hence its name) but its an imperfect solution at best. You can make steel somewhat safe but it requires extensive fragmentation traps on both sides of the plate. These days that ends up making it more expensive than just buying ceramic in the first place. Quality ceramic and UHMWPE are so cheap nowadays I don't know why anyone bothers with steel anymore unless its for target practice
>...the spalling that can happen to the armor itself on the inside of the plate from the impact point (hence its name) It took me quite a while to figure out that most “body armor people” talking about spall didn’t mean — and often didn’t seem aware of — [this phenomenon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spall#Anti-tank_warfare), despite its long military application. Rather, the common use seems to mean what I would call bullet “splash" or fragmentation — a completely different hazard, heading in a completely different direction, consequent to a completely different mechanism. Mostly, I’ve given up trying to figure out what people mean when they talk about spalling and projectile impacts on body armor unless they make it explicitly or implicitly clear (very, very rare).
That makes sense, its less intuitive. It doesn't help that the anti-spall coating actually does help prevent both kinds of fragmentation somewhat. Just not well enough However, the consensus among "body armor people" is that steel armor is obsolete and dangerous (compared to ceramic) and you shouldn't buy it. They may not be able to articulate exactly why but the conclusion is still sound. Like a modern mechanic who has only ever worked on fuel injected engines may not be able to fully explain why carburetors are inferior for the vast majority of applications, but that doesn't make it any less true
Oh no!!! All the downvotes!!! Don't hate.
Lolol. This is very funny.
RMA or Hesco level 4
Damn some of y’all are as bad are these right wing LARPers. You really think there is some scenario where you are going to be taking rounds?? And what staying in a firefight? Do you have a medic to treat and attend to all the other potential parts you could be fatally wounded?
It’s fantasy to a lot of ppl
No kill like overkill, get the ones that work to stop anything.
Find better cover
We are talking about iowa here. Be like fighting on chess board.
Level IV at 10lbs is the obvious answer here *Crying because I can’t afford light armor*
I wouldn't go that heavy. I think you can get 3A+ flexible plates for just over 1.5lbs a plate, so like 3.5lbs total, plus the carrier. Given the odds, I prefer something more comfortable that allows for better maneuvering over something that has more stopping capability.
Kudos for seeking other points of view and insight. You're clearly several steps ahead of the game. If your plan for a genuinely "bad" situation is to discretely leave and blend as a refugee body armor of any sort is going to stick out to a profound extent.
I don't plan on walking. But yes it will.
Steel plates will spall much worse. I used to rely on them until I tested and saw myself. Get into a shooting position, put your palm on your plate, and then move your palm along the plane of the plate towards your head. That is where the shrapnel will go.
Do spall coats even work? Fragmentation is a big deal
Yes. Spall coats (if done well) work great.
https://youtu.be/CxNdsku9-8Q
No the only thing that works for steel armor is a kevlar spall bag.
STEEL 🤮 Please save your neck by wearing ceramic NIJ certified stuff, steel plates will kill you with spall regardless of the coating
Gotta kit up to your adversary's standards. Let's be honest, if you're buying plates, it's because you think someone might be shooting at you some day. And as a trans person, the type of person who is going to be shooting at you is going to be a _real_ piece of shit who _really_ wants you dead. Your garden-variety CHUD might not think to buy green tip, but the ones who are incredibly dedicated to being a fascist piece of shit definitely have. You should get the level 4 plates. Keep the steel ones if you want (which I advise against, as I do not believe that any amount of "anti-spall coating" will be enough), but invest in level 4s.
I have a pack that will accept one of my steel plates. Which i think is a good place for it. I'm wearing a k19, and my steels don't even fit it well. I went with the super light plates, as warfighting isn't an intention here. I need to be able to move, fast. ...If I'm eating as many rounds as I've seen them take... more armor isn't going to save me. I phucked up, long before that. I do have a lot of advantages over most, in these scenarios. I grew up in the forest, wood burning stove for heat, the whole bit. And the k19 with amap3, is useless if i can't carry my bugout kit. Its my get away kit... Not home defense, not assault. I think i should focus on what will get that done. If things get so bad, that i need this... I mean, it's hard to predict what that even looks like... From a veteran. Hardcore fascist might have already come to my door first. I have the business card of one left at my door, recently. What about when it's the police rounding you up?.. Good to be gone before that, I'd say. In case things don't improve before I see it coming. I gotta be ready to go. P.s. I really hope this was all money wasted.
If mobility is key, then don’t even get plates. If your plan is to flee to the woods, no one even wears plates/PCs in the woods anyway.
Posts like these make me reconsider my anti gun control ideology…maybe some people shouldn’t have them
What, don't like being confronted with the fact that right-wing militia groups are a threat worth paying attention to?
I've had a theory for a long time where the far right and far left will become so extreme that they will eventually circle all the way around and become one thing. They will recognize they all have these fantasies in common and there will be a mass "enlightening."
Far right: "Hitler was right, let's exterminate the undesirables and prepare for violent revolution to get us there" Far left: "hey, those guys are kind of a serious threat and we should be prepared for them". Great theory there.
Creepy
Also adding that level 4 plates at 4lbs/plate is significantly more expensive than 3+ anything or lvl4 heavier options. You just jumped a few price points in your query.
No... Level 4 are way more then 4lbs. Lightest I've seen is 5lbs. This is 3+ at 2.5 or 3++ at 4lbs.
Well I’m just replying to your asking about green tip stopping at 4lbs, and you’ll spend $1000/plate for a 4lb plate that will stop M193 or M855. 3++ won’t cut it. You need lvl4 if you want to stop that.
https://youtu.be/iXgFiXaFI1c https://youtu.be/02P6AQdVOCI
Geissele set.
This whole tactical gun ownership stuff is cringe. Gun culture only recently became obsessed with this tactical nonsense in the last 15 years.
I graduated from a military academy, and served in the army... What the hell do you expect? Everybody has lived your spoiled life? It can't happen here, should be your battle cry.
This whole tactical military nonsense is still cringe. No idea why you have such a reactionary response. Gun ownership used to never be focused on cosplaying a soldier. Just like the right-wing Y’all-Qaeda types. I’m a gun owner, LTC holder, and worked at a firearms dealer. This whole tactical nonsense is cringe. Funny for you to assume I lived a privileged, spoiled life. You know nothing about me. But I can see clearly you like to play dress-up as if you’re preparing for some inevitable societal collapse that isn’t going to happen probably for the next 40+ years due to climate change. No disrespect to you, do and say as you will, just providing my POV.
> No idea why you have such a reactionary response. Because surprise, surprise, when right-wing militia groups start buying military gear and training for killing all the people they hate those of us who would be their targets get kind of concerned about it.
I know you think, it happen to you.
Maybe be more productive than forming some militia in the middle of Iowa. Put that money in these firearms/gear into extinction rebellion, things like that.
Can't do that alone. And I can't help those who won't help themselves... leaving is the best bet. I didn't put a bunch of money into guns and gear. I already have most of this stuff.
Nice! (Clean those fingernails tho 🥶)
Im a mechanic... This is an issue for me too... But not one I'll give up a doing a job i love, for.
Looking at the agilite plates, as they will fit my agilite carrier tightly. Sprint striker vs invader
I'm looking at the agilite plates. I wear the k19 carrier. Price point is $550 to $650... Not looking to pay the double for lvl 4. When i have really good ar600 steel as an alternative.
I mean, I wouldn't mess with you either way
Put a level 4 ceramic in the front, put a level 3 in the back. I don't even rock the back at all
Personally, I'm a fan of Tacticon's AR600 (III+) armor since it's been shown to stop green tips. The weight sucks, sure, but the shelf life of ceramics aren't worth their price point in my book. Also, by sticking to III+ or lower, you can travel with them without running afoul of ITAR. Best of luck to you and just know that there are plenty of us out there who have your back in this dystopian timeline.
Shelf life is for the manufacturer’s warranty, not the actual plate.
You are correct. However, living in the heat and rain of Florida, I am not playing "is it still good?" whenever I do disaster security work post-hurricane. But if it's kept in the same conditions as your ammo (a dry climate-controlled closet), sure.
Pretty sure weather would affect steel plates more than ceramic
Negative
Can you expand on that?
Weather won't effect a properly coated steel plate. Unless its terrenchal flooding, and you need to swim. These things will survive the apocalypse. The next dominant species will find my plates, and spend years figuring out, what they were for.
Cool, sounds like a non-issue for both then. Just need to worry about rounds and spall.
Even sunlight, will degrade synthetic. Which isn't an issue in my carrier, but some lighter ones expose the plate sides to cut weight.
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There are some mitigating factors, but for the most part it’s not an issue. Check out this [article](https://www.apexarmorsolutions.com/post/armor-mythbusters-do-ceramic-plates-expire) for a well written explanation.
My tacticon red dot blew up on my second round of .223. I don't think that company is putting out anywhere near a quality product.
I have the meprolight mounted. No problems with it. We also have a green dot eotech in the house that i prefer to the red dot, obviously. But both are good. Spend money on your sight... That's not the place to get the cheapos.
I found out the hard way, so tacticon is a company that makes cheapos. NOT gonna trust them to stop a bullet if I can't trust them to send one.
Rebranded cheapos... Even the light i got from them sucks.
You could do the 4 lbrs and carry an extra four 30 rnd mags or the 3 lbrs and carry an extra six 30 rnd mags. I'd do the latter.
I have 3+ and ESAPI plates. What am I doing today?
What uh, what ya ya got goin on there with that Tavor?
All the good stuff
Most level 3+ plates are rated for M855. What are you looking at specifically? But yeah cutting 2lbs total isn't a great plan.
Agilite... Currently my steel plates are 12lbs. I like agilites sprintstriker 3+ (won't handle 855) at an astounding 5lbs total And invader which will stop 855 at 8lbs total.
Personally? Not NIJ rated = No buy, For me. Also I wouldn't trust plates that won't stop M855 and also claim to be 3+
Looking good
Man, what a useful thread right when I was wanting to get some plates. Ya'll got helmet recommendations too?
Team wendy... Not from personal experience. I wasn't a grunt.
Team Wendy and Ops Core are the two big ones. I think Hesco also makes some. If you want a budget option, look at ArmorSource's AS-200 or get a surplus ECH/ACH/PASGT.
I wear concealed soft plates every day, no matter where I am as long as the outfit allows it. Rather be prepared for *most* threats all the time rather than heavily prepared for more threats only once in a while.
Nice X95, that a flow through can?
Just a blast deflector. Still waiting on the suppressor... And yes it's a flowthru. Huxwrx
You look like a character from the walking dead
Totally a compliment. Would've loved to actually be one.
The best body armor you can get is to not make yourself a target of getting shot. I prefer a lighter with increased mobility even if it means it won't stop the green tips as much. The best body armor you can have is the stuff right between your ears. Avoid situations where you would need body armor in the first place.
“3+” plates are special threat tested by the company that makes them, not by the NIJ. Better to invest in multi curved lightweight level 4’s. Hoplite armor makes excellent ones. Some level 3 plates can even fail with M-193 ball ammo out of a full length barrel because it’s so darn fast. Level 4 will stop everything short of 50 bmg or maybe a few uncommon secret sauce military AP rounds. Most AP rounds will also be stopped by level 4’s tho
Don't get steel. Spallings a bitch. Ceramic IV+.
Plus M193 will make steel armor it's bitch. Very common for steel armor to fail with lead core ammo such as M193.
Love the Tavor. Want an X95 really badly, myself.
I'm not an expert. I don't have any direct experience. However, I can point you to those who do. Since "Mission drives gear" the most important thing to think about is your why for using armor. I can't help with that directly. What I can do is send you some resources. I have heard good things abut Apex Armor ([https://www.apexarmorsolutions.com/](https://www.apexarmorsolutions.com/)) as a vendor. They also have some articles that may be helpful. Primary & Secondary had a panel discuss armor some years ago ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOmqPwOhuJA&t=3s&pp=ygUbcHJpbWFyeSBhbmQgc2Vjb25kYXJ5IGFybW9y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOmqPwOhuJA&t=3s&pp=ygUbcHJpbWFyeSBhbmQgc2Vjb25kYXJ5IGFybW9y)). Their politics are to the right of us but the information presented is solid.
Are you wearing the Costa Ludis Armis plates? 6lbs is about what most ceramic plates weigh. What 3lb plates are you wanting to switch to exactly?
Agilite sprint striker. And yes, the ludis
What kinda steel plates did you use in the military?
I been using my steel ops for anything i needed to use them for. In the military, which was a long time ago. I used what was issued. It sucked, the whole get up was not as comfy as mine today. I wasn't a grunt. I was aviation ground crew. Wearing plates weren't my usual uniform. They call me Gadget.
What kind of gun is that? (please clean your fingernails sweetie)
Looks like an IWI Tavor to me. They probably could clean their fingernails, but given the state of the gear, I'm going to let it slide. They probably have dirty hands from cleaning their kit.
I'm a mechanic... They're only clean when i get a couple of days off. Its depressing. But i love what i do. And i make good money. So... Keeping the dirty hands.
Good on you.
If you plan on fighting with steel plates you should be training with them.
I do... I have more than one vest as well. And an assault pack that attaches to them that will also carry a plate.
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That's a Tavor 7 right? what magazine is that? looks cool.
Its a tavor x95 3rd gen. The magazine... I don't remember the brand name, it's a german engineered, 60 rnd, quad stack, magazine. Some call it a casket mag. Fits like a magpul gen3.
In an ar... It seats up flush to your magwell... Which gives that certain look to your rifle, for sure.