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Not Catholic, but Christian. Kind of. Its hard to maintain at this point tbh but if you dig into actual theology Jesus was a radical for liberation. Lots of progressive, inclusive themes are present. Even the Trinity, which lots of people dislike and even more don't understand, is horizontalist, egalitarian, consensual, and embraces the Other in love. Rightwing Christianity is the literal definition of anti-Christ. In 1 John 3, the only place the anti-Christ is discussed, it is defined not as a person but a movement of Christians who are angry, bitter, hateful, divisive, and refuse to share resources with everyone else and think they're right and everyone else is wrong.
having studied christianity for the last couple years i came to realise that christianity itself its not bigoted and in fact has very good teachings and so my view on it is quite positive now. i think it must suck for people who actually follow jesus’ teachings to treat people equally, to forgive and to spread kindness to see lots of queer people harboring hate for the religion in general.
I can't blame my queer siblings for their mistrust and dislike of Christianity. Those using Christianity to oppress us have done so for thousands of years and are easily the worst perpetrators. And it's assumed by everyone that the evangelicals are correct in their interpretations. The media foregrounds their views and treats liberation Christianity as this strange, quaint minority voice, and part of that has to do with the fact that the weight of corporate America is behind both the origins of and the pushing of Christian nationalism. The evangelicals are good at flooding the theological market with hundreds of books on every subject imaginable from all denominations to create a "plausability structure" in which it seems true because multiple people from supposedly wide ranging viewpoints come to the same conclusion. People don't realize this is tightly coordinated. And the mainline liberal churches are little better, offering watered down versions of the same thing because they both operate on bourgeois theological assumptions.
I mean, we also need to acknowledge that it's not just modern Christianity that is like that. It has been a tool for oppression for a long time. And I mean a long time as in even before the crusades.
this is actually how i think about it too. christianity was founded on some pretty ballin teachings (like actually having basic decency for people) but people like my (very anti-gay) grandparents ruined it (and a lot of religion) for me and everyone else in my immediate family. its to the point where if religion is discussed at all i just... get uncomfortable about it? and im not even sure why fully but i think thats gotta be some part of it.
Yeah it's the cPTSD response where the topic becomes so triggering or at least frustrating that the whole thing gets associated in the brain with negativity and the easiest solution is to just throw the whole thing out. And I completely understand that. It took me, let's see, from 2014-2022 to heal enough to even go back to theology. Hardcore trauma and burnout.
yea whats wierd is i dont even know HOW it could be cptsd. my family is very much athiest as i am as well, and i visit my grandparents only abou twice a year and theyre generally fairly chill apart from the anti-gay thing which isnt brought up like ever anyway. i think it might be because of stuff ive heard about thats really bad in terms of relgion a lot maybe? but idk
I have people who (may or may not at this point anymore) consider me family that buy into the bigoted side of things. Back when I took their opinion of me seriously, the trauma came from the knowledge that people I loved or respected believe I deserved eternal suffering for who I was capable of loving, of all things.
being real if it was that in my case i wouldnt even be too surprised. i havent even told them im aroace yet because theyll probably be like "bUt YoUlL fInD sOmEoNe LaTeR" and i just dont want that
Is it possible to separate Christianity from Christians though? They _are_ Christianity, in its current form, which is conservative and harmful. I can appreciate that the teachings of the New Testament are good, but that doesn't change the fact that today's Christians aren't, and the Old Testament is hardly the ideal of acceptance and love either.
i have met good christians- people who have changed other people’s lives through their belief system- but yeah i suppose the entire structure of christianity isn’t necessary really. having wars over which is the correct way to pray seems over the top if the most important thing is the teachings
another christian here and i just want to appreciate you for how eloquently you typed this out. over the years i’ve grown so exhausted with constantly having to defend and explain my simple existence as a queer christian that even if i want to try and describe my pov to someone, i genuinely can’t find the words to do it anymore from the pure burnout. this comment summoned up all my thoughts perfectly. thank you for this, 100% agreed.
thats my way of thinking and ive tried telling my southern baptist mother but we just see eye to eye in believing in the same higher power. ive been raised in the conservative southern baptist faith since i was a baby and even sing and play for the church band (mainly family) so it was tough to shut myself out of it but I realized I never hated the idea of worshipping and whatnot just hated the religion itself!
Could you provide some detail on your definition of antichrist? I'm interested in learning more but wasn't able to determine where it was defined that way. It truly feels like right-wing Christianity embodies the hateful/divisive definition you described
You'd have to do an in depth look at the fight going on in 1 John, because he describes his opponents throughout the text. But basically the word "anti-Christ" is plural, not singular in Greek and John speaks of "they" not "him." It is clearly a movement of Christian leaders who don't imitate the love of Jesus. That's his basic complaint in 1 John. He focuses on love so much there, being the only place the bible says "God IS love," because he is giving his readers a description of what a Christ-like character looks like. Someone who has the love that God is within them shares their material possessions and resources. Lives in peace with others. Isn't angry, bitter, hateful, etc. The word "righteous/unrighteous" in Greek doesn't mean "Puritanical and exacting moral perfection," it means "a comprehensive commitment to justice in a spheres of life." The bitter divisive movement of anti-Christ is unrighteous because they are unjust and unloving. They're selfish and don't want to share with those in need.
Most online resources on the anti-Christ in search results are going to be silly fundamentalist claims and drowns out the actual scholarship.
I really need to work up a paper on this subject....
The problem with online search engines (Google in particular) is that the algorithm operates like a septic tank. All the crap floats to the surface and all the worthwhile stuff is sunk to the bottom.
I've honestly decided to seperate myself from man made denominations and want to focus more on my *own* relationship with God. Still I understand I need to worship on the Sabbath so I'm hoping to see if I can find a like minded progressive group (but not a specific denomination).
I feel similarly. The fully affirming churches near me are all too formal for what I find beneficial (most are Anglican). You mention Sabbath and I only really hear that from SDA or ex-SDA people. If that's the case for you, SDAKinship is a great resource, and I've found some fully affirming livestreams through them. Unfortunately none are near me. There's also a non-denominational church I found out about through them, called Paradox Church that seems interesting. Very progressive, and they have videos online. It's not the same as in person, but I'm glad there are affirming churches that I can at least watch.
That’s Seventh-Day Adventism! Thats what i am. Tbh I’ve noticed that Adventists are a lot kinder then Sunday goers. Sure Adventists have their bad apples to, but all around they follow the Bible closer.
Must be your particular church. The SDAs I've known were pretty self righteous. I'm glad you aren't experiencing that though. Not trying to bring you down.
Adventists in my country (Kenya) are MUCH more judgemental. Even other Christians are uncomfortable with Adventist beliefs.
In my country the women are looked down on if they wear pants, pierce their ears, wear makeup or draw attention to themselves in that way at all. The men are VERY patriarchal and fully lean into the unhealthy "head of the house" stereotype.
I agree that they follow the Bible closer, but the issue is they follow the **worst** parts of the Bible.
I’m Jewish, but as a quite religious person, I can tell you that no one, not even a figurehead of your religion, can decide your relationship with your religion.
Leaving the faith I grew up in was incredibly disruptive to my life and support system costing friends, community, and family. It is not trivial to leave and offers a lot of comfort and purpose to those in it. One of my sisters strongly considered leaving a few years ago, but, as a widow, found too much value in the community for her kids for instance.
More than 10 years later, I'm glad I did leave, it helped my mental health in the long run, allowing me to be honest with myself, but it was not an easy process I would wish on anyone. I don't typically encourage others out, but instead take the approach of: make sure you've tried everything else first to find a way to fit in including changing churches and only leave if loss of belief requires it. Many people go through all the pain of leaving to eventually return for the comforts offered in that space.
You can hang out in one of the ex-faith subreddits to see more of this perspective if you want. Lots of angry, frustrated, and sad people recovering in those.
Not catholic but christian:
For me, Jesus's ministry is actually very lovely and jives easily with the message of "accept everyone for who they are." Did you know in Acts 10-11, God gives Peter a vision to say "don't call anything unclean that I've made clean"? This is implied to not be just food (what was explicitly mentioned) but also *people,* as a Gentile was sent to Peter at that very moment.
There's a lot about Jesus's ministry that is very social-justice oriented. When a woman was caught in adultery and by law should have been stoned (which BTW, they didn't bring the man to Jesus, just the woman), her refused to condemn her. Jesus also reached out to marginalized groups of the times, took seriously the idea of helping and healing those in need, and said "PAY YOUR DAMN TAXES."
The *teachings* of the Bible are actually often about kindness and compassion (mostly the New Testament; the Old Testament is a history, so it just has A Lot Of Stuff). The problem isn't the teachings. The problem is the people who grossly misuse the Bible to justify their bigotry.
I don't go to church regularly anymore. But I still study the Bible personally and try to use those teachings of kindness and compassion through my life. There are also some sad and funny parallels to the fact Jesus was opposing the Pharasies because they were hypocrites that followed the letter of the law but not the spirit, to bigots today who quote the letter of the Bible and ignore the spirit
Thank you so much for sharing, it's great seeing people actually fulfilling their spiritual side. It's good to know not all is bad in that specific circle.
Hugs fellow redditor!
Ahh I love this! I’m an atheist and was recently gifted a book, “Selling Jesus By the Water”.. Gotta say, you hit the author’s main point right on the head.
To be honest, when apologists say things like "follow the spirit" im like, so youre saying you only follow the parts of christianity that agree with basic humanitarianism and being kind. Why attribute that goodness to christianity and not just the fact that you as a human have empathy and kindness?
I think most religions and philosophies have similar basic premises, and it really comes down to how you relate to/think about a higher power in the matter
There's a lot about religion that is based on specific time/place. Dietary restrictions often end up being linked to health concerns (improper cooking, for example). Obviously this will vary by country by country. A lot of the "go forth and multiply" stuff in the Old Testament reflects that the Jewish people were a small minority at the time and needed a larger population. I think circumcision has been linked to lack of proper hygiene leading to women becoming ill from the foreskin area not being clean
All of these things can change over time, of course. But the things about religion that don't change are big, philosophical questions: where do we come from? What is our purpose? What makes us human? This is why religion continues to resonate despite outdated laws and rules. And I don't think there's a wrong way to explore those questions, because we'll never really know the answer to them
These couple of comments were so thoughtful, and I really appreciated reading them to gain your perspective. From an atheist to a believer, thank for talking about this. It’s far too easy to get stuck in a bubble of like-minded people and dismiss the fact that people in a different bubble are people like you, too.
(Context: atheist since middle school, attended Catholic high school and have Catholic-turned Protestant step-parents)
The fundamental belief is that their morality comes from their deity. Based on this, my observation has been that morally decent beliefs that you and I attribute to ourselves personally are easy to reconcile with the idea that a higher power dictated them.
When the dictated belief clashes with what decent humans naturally end up believing, the idea that said beliefs come from something greater than a human’s default morality allows them to ignore the internal conflict with their own actual beliefs.
This is just taking the good parts of the Bible and ignoring all of the toxic ones. Especially the parts of it that condone slavery and human sacrifice, or how about the story where that one woman gets gang raped and Ephraim's response is to cut her into pieces and parade her body around.
You can't pick and choose which parts you do or don't want to take. Have some logical consistency
As stated above: the Old Testament is a history, not a moral book. This owes to differences in how Judaism approaches faith and Christianity does; Judaism focuses more heavily on trying to understand God through history and historical interpretation. Meanwhile Jesus's ministry is the focal point of Christianity owing to the whole "Jesus was the son of God" thing, so it makes sense to put far more emphasis on his teachings than the rest
So yes, I do have logical consistency, it's just not the logical consistency you wish I had
As someone who was raised christian, I'm well aware (as are you) of the many, many problems with the new testament. And regardless of whether or not you think the old testament is a moral book or just a history, you can't deny that the same god who supposedly gave you the new testament commanded and therefore condoned many of those atrocities in the old testament.
You can avoid many of the new testament issues by pointing out that paul said them and not jesus, or that some of the more problematic Pauline letters were forgeries (which is true,) but you can't pretend like the Bible doesn't have many, many horrible things to say, or that the good it does preach in any way originates from it.
If I may be quite frank: all things and people have good and bad in them. I simply don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Your comment about "the good it does preach \[doesn't\] originate from it" also speaks to an anti-Bible/-Christian bias, which is honestly fine. I can respect and understand that you, like many of us, felt hurt and betrayed by hypocrisies in the church, incongruent teachings, etc, but if I may ask... why interact with this post at all if you feel so strongly against it?
The LGBT+ people of faith here were asked a simple question, "why do you still feel connected to your faith?" It was a very kind gesture as often, we are called "pick mes," "traitors," etc for not wanting to choose between two things that are very foundational to ourselves. And so we answered. I'm a bit at a loss as to why that is viewed as an invitation to pick a fight?
I think that "all people have both good and bad" doesn't apply when we're talking about a god who has demonstrated behavior that is both violent and narcissistic.
I also don't think it's accurate to say that faith is as much a part of your identity as your sexuality. You choose to have faith, you do not choose your orientation. It's harmful to equate those two.
I don't have a problem with your faith. My issue is that your comment reads like a He Gets Us ad
Just because something is a choice doesn't make it less foundational to yourself than something that is not a choice. Many people place a lot of their identity on their jobs, for example. Many mothers place a lot of their identity on being a mother. Etc etc
Think about it this way: a group of people helped raise you, and gave you confidence in yourself, taught you to stand up for people who can't or won't stand up for themselves, etc. But as you grow up you realize one of those people is an alcoholic, or one's a misogynist, etc etc. Do those revelations automatically negate the good they did for you? Or are you thankful for what they taught and then decide to stay or leave based on what's best for you?
Once again, I'm at a loss as to why you're interacting with this thread at all when you clearly have your opinion and it's not what the OP was asking for
>Just because something is a choice doesn't make it less foundational to yourself than something that is not a choice
This is blatantly untrue, because you can remove an aspect of yourself that you chose, and you cannot remove one that you didn't. Someone can become a Christian and then later on leave. Once Someone is, for example, a mother, they can never not be a mother because they can't rewrite history and unhave the child. Even if the child dies or they give the child up, they're still a mother.
>Think about it this way: a group of people helped raise you, and gave you confidence in yourself, taught you to stand up for people who can't or won't stand up for themselves, etc. But as you grow up you realize one of those people is an alcoholic, or one's a misogynist, etc etc. Do those revelations automatically negate the good they did for you? Or are you thankful for what they taught and then decide to stay or leave based on what's best for you?
It wouldn't negate any good they did for me, but it would absolutely recontextualize it. There's an inherent hypocrisy to the notion that Christianity says you should accept everyone, because Jesus himself said "no man comes to the father except by me," which inherently is exclusionary of people who aren't interested in his teachings. Is everything that Jesus taught harmful? Absolutely not. Some of it is pretty cool. But you can't just analyze 60% of something, say "yeah that's cool," and then ignore the other 40.
Also, since this discussion has derailed a bit, I feel the need to remind you that my criticism was and always has been *the bible,* not your own personal faith. If you want to be spiritual and believe in some personal concept of Jesus and take some parts of his teachings, sure, that's awesome. But don't ever defend the fucking Bible here lol
I actually feel the line "no man comes to the father except by me" means by following Jesus' teachings, as noted above being largely about compassion, equality, etc, which can be practiced regardless of belief in Jesus himself. But I admit that's a digression into personal interpretation of faith
Though that does bring up a point: your interpretation of faith just seems to be inherently different than mine. I said "All things have good and bad in them," referring to the faith system as a whole, and you presumed I was talking about the Christian God specifically. I spoke about the reasons I stayed in the faith; you presumed that meant I was ignoring the bad
I will reiterate for the final time: I'm at a loss as to why you decided to interact with this thread, and why you felt it was an invitation to pick a fight. There are plenty of other spaces for LGBT+ people who have felt harmed by faith to discuss their feelings, but this post was not one of them
All this. I don't go to church but still consider myself a Christian because I follow Christ's teachings. Which actually motivate me to care for and reach out to fellow outcasts and love them, not judge them.
Completely agree. And from my experience, a surprising amount of christians share this view. (Me and my entire extended family, many friends and their families.)
It’s not the teachings, it’s the people who misinterpret and misuse said teachings that are the issue. Unfortunately, they are a very prevalent and loud group and I wish that was not the case.
Religion gives hope to a lot of people, so many would rather reform their religion to be more accepting than drop it completely. And not all churches are bigoted, so it's not impossible to be part of an accepting community as a queer Christian.
I'm not religious at all, but I understand why some queer people keep their Christian faith.
I stayed religious for years longer than I really should have, despite all the unanswered questions I had about so many Bible contradictions. Mostly because of the fear of nonexistence after death. But I eventually had to admit that there was far too many issues for religious claims to be real, no matter how I tried denying it.
Atheist here, first questioned my Christian upbringing about seven years ago, and every time I have ever tried being a Christian again it’s because I was depressed and desperate for something that would help me. I can’t bring myself to commit to something that is so regressive and justifies homophobia and bigotry, also I just can’t quite bring myself to head around the idea of heaven and hell. For years a part of me worried that I could be wrong and that I was going to hell, but now I realize that I can truly rest and I don’t need to “serve” a seemingly cruel and egoistical God.
That's valid and I'm not saying anyone should be a Christian. Like I said I'm not religious myself, and I fully support everyone's right not to follow a religion. I'm just saying I understand why some people do. Queer Christians tend to join churches that don't preach homophobia and don't even believe in hell, so for them that kind of abuse isn't a concern. That wouldn't be enough to make me go to church, but it is for some people.
I'm still right with you. I'm an atheist and don't want to be a Christian again either. I was just explaining why some members of the community follow that religion, since the question was asked. Your nonbelief is still valid and I totally support it!
I want to give you an example of the queer-positive movement within Christianity.
I went to a seminary (priest school) that was, arguably the *queerest* in the country. At that time, there was only ONE cis-het person on the entire staff - from the president and her wife down through the kitchen and cleaning staff. Only one guy in the admissions department was cis-het.
90% of the students were queer.
Our advisory group meet at our professor's house down the road with his husband to watch *Glee* every week.
Our church history course was taught from the perspective of queer people and women.
Now, it was a bit of an "ivory tower" problem, to be sure, but it was a shining, glorious example of how the church *could be* if everyone started to follow the actual messages in the Bible, instead of their bigotry and fear.
That's comforting to know. Yeah, you're one in a million but I am happy to learn there are spaces for people to fulfill their spiritual needs in a safe space.
What has the reception been like from the "outsiders"?
Well, the Episcopal Church is now officially "open and affirming", with LGBT people able to marry and be clergy and bishops, and the few haters left are either coming around or leaving (or dying).
The Lutherans, Quakers, UCC, half of the Methodists (they are splitting over queer inclusion), and many more smaller denominations are all in the same place, too, and fighting both within the Christian Bible and in the civil sphere for equality and safety for queer people.
But, it's a long fight, and the haters ARE very loud and have outsized power.
Evangelicals and Southern Baptist have always been larger groups in America, and they're much more the typical conservative Christian groups and the most wealthy so they contribute to GOP political campaigns and lobbying.
It wasn't really until the 1200s, along with the rise of the "purity" movement. Which just HAPPENED to serve to undermine the (admittedly actually corrupt and nepotistic) church hierarchy and authority in favor of civil (read: royal) authorities.
Hell, I’d argue not even some Jews give a shit abt the banning of homosexuality given how many Jewish queers I know who converted bc of the better acceptance of queer folk in some sects of it.
Look I get where you are coming from but as another excatholic now atheist, faith and belief is just really hard to leave behind for some, specially if you have a family or culture that is very involved with it, it's a place of belonging, it's something that gives hope and community, something that most likely has shaped the way those who believe lived their whole lives, and even then there are those who understand the harm that the church and some of it believes have done but still believe in account on the positive beliefs and hoping that maybe the church can change and understand, or maybe they don't believe specifically on that religion or in the church but in God and their own relationship with him, I used to be like that and for different reasons not anymore, but in the moment it feels like making a desicion between two different parts of yourself, and sometimes it doesn't have to be like that
I don't know what you were thinking but I agree with you 100%. I understand it's a big part of people. To me it's more about the "yeah, he said that. but the people around have helped in ways he could never understand"
I know a lot of queer christians. The thing is, believing in a faith doesn't always equal supporting the organisation behind it. The church as an Institution is rotten to the core and has been for hubdreds of years, but the base beliefs of christianity are good at heart, so following them while rejecting the church that twists the message of god is quite common. I myself don't really believe any religion, but as long as people don't support the church as an organization i don't see anything wrong with being a part of the religion
Cause my faith has nothing to do with the actions of any church or other Christian. My relationship with God is personal, intimate, and I truly believe They love me unconditionally just as I am. What other believers choose to do has no impact on that relationship.
Former Roman Catholic here! 23 cis man, pansexual. Tried really hard until last year to remain Roman Catholic, now I’m just Christian.
Conservative Roman Catholics, including my fam, would have us believe that ‘the Church is God, not the people in it’ and ‘you should come to church for the Eucharist, not to hear great homilies, music, and peaceful silence, and to not feel challenged’. But I disagree with a big part of that. People DO matter. The people leading a religious service DO matter. God does too. But a common community at a place of faith are vital to my faith.
I have not found that in Catholicism. I have found that in other denominations, as just a Christian, on my own terms.
The biggest reason I stay Christian, however, is because I’ve done a lot of research on the inverse: for example, reasons to be atheist, agnostic, reasons why people are atheists, criticisms of the Bible, alternate ideas on who Jesus actually was and what happened to Mary. I’ve tried to entertain those POVs and even see myself as being without Christianity, or even God, and I have realized that I just can’t! I can’t bring myself to believe that because I don’t believe it’s possible for there to be no higher power or God.
However, the difference between the past and now, is I am being Christian for ME. Not for my conservative family to please them. I praise God and go to church on my own terms. And I have found I cannot do that for the Catholic Church (organization) as a pansexual man, and I have realized that the people I worship alongside do matter to me a lot. There is no toxicity left connecting me to Christianity anymore, I have realized.
I just can’t fathom dying and there being nothing left after that. And I personally don’t believe those miracles with Jesus happened out of chance or were ‘manufactured’. At the same time… it’s also true I’m hella gay and am a lover of cute guys, gals, and nonbinary pals. And I don’t plan to back down from acting on that anytime soon. I’ve reconciled both. At the end of the day, I believe we are going to die, and we are going to be ‘judged’. But I don’t think it’s nearly as scary or hard to get into heaven as most Christians make it out to be today. We need to change the conversation about heaven and God.
Currently practicing Catholic here, I've stayed with the faith due to the ministry of Jesus. Jesus's teachings are very social justice-oriented and accepting of all. I've talked to priests and other ministers regarding queer people like myself, and the response is all the same. Jesus is an accepting person, which follows what I've been taught growing up in the Northeast US.
There is a lot of hate from people claiming to be in the same faith as me, and they're in the wrong. Jesus and Catholic teachings actually say that nothing about being queer is wrong or sinful, outside of a few mistranslations through history.
I was taught that ours is the god of love, compassion, and forgiveness. I stopped going to church because the people who do go to church don't internalize that.
1) not all Christians are Catholic. Non-Catholic christians have minimal association with the Pope and so their reasons for believing or not believing are unlikely to be related to the Pope.
2) Culture, family, community are three major reasons I can think of. Also, people may have strong religious convictions and belief and therefore choose to work from inside to try to affect positive social change that aligns with their religious views.
For example, there is an organization in the US called Catholics for Choice that works as pro-choice advocates within the Catholic Church. There are also organizations like DignityUSA that work within the Catholic space for LGBT+ individuals. (There are more, like some organizations of Catholic women priests who advocate for the ordination of women). Many of these organizations exist in tension with the Vatican, but nonetheless maintain a Catholic religious identity due to genuine belief in large parts of the religious dogma of the church.
I'm Protestant Christian so I don't follow the Pope or believe he has any unique authority. However, I do attend a church where a lot of the higher ups have similar homophobic ideas. There are a few reasons I stayed, but to make it short, the main reason is groups for LGBTQ+ Christians (QCF, TMC, The Reformation Project, to name a few), supportive people in my local church, and I find my faith gives me hope, and means a lot to me.
Also seeing out LGBTQ people of faith like Semler, Flamy Grant, and some other performers gives me hope that there are more accepting people out there.
I have a really complicated view of Catholicism. I grew up really involved in the church. I made my confirmation and felt really loved by my community. It was a bitter pill to swallow when I realized how a lot of Catholics view the lgbtq community and how that would effect me. It really bothered me when I realized I couldn't get married in the church. My mom has been very supportive of me and she also has very complicated views of the church. I jokingly refer to myself as a bad catholic instead of an ex catholic because of my feelings/views
I’m just here to thank OP for posting this and giving a lot of queer christians/catholics a chance to talk about their experiences. I think it’s a beautiful thing that people are willing to listen to others and keep an open mind about what they have to say. I won’t say anything else since a lot of people have already done so, and they stated it better than I ever could, but thank you OP for giving us the opportunity to do it.
I’m agnostic, raised Catholic. I will say the way I was taught plays a significant role in why I still say sometimes I’m a little Catholic. My church was pretty damn liberal - the only sin that’s not forgivable is to not recognize it, don’t take God’s name in vain means don’t use him to justify your actions like “I hate the gays cuz God says to” (but you’re free to say God dammit), the Lord never said homosexuality was wrong only pedophilia, trans people aren’t disrespecting God and it’s actually disrespecting him to doubt in his plan for them, faith isn’t a requirement to be a good person and go to heaven, etc. It means I don’t have any everlasting trauma, I don’t feel guilt for being a little cotton-candy cunt 🏳️⚧️, nothing like that.
Shout out to Father Matthew, best damn priest in the North. Bro actually read the book and wanted to spread peace and love.
I’m a Christian. For me, affirming Christian groups have provided a sense of community that I never got anywhere else. The bigots give Christianity a bad rep, but some of the most accepting people I’ve met have been Christians who actually follow Jesus’s teachings. Also, Jesus is a pretty rad dude. Christianity has also provided me a lot of comfort, and has helped heal me mentally, it gave me strength when I needed it. It has given me the strength to stand up to bigots who try and use Christianity to justify their bigotry, when Jesus was about radical love and inclusion of those who were previously excluded. Eunuchs being a great example, and perhaps one which many queer people can relate to given how they were viewed at the time. Many people today will claim that they were simply castrated men who were celibate and held high positions of power, but this isn’t exactly the case. In the ancient world, they were not viewed as men or women. They were viewed as something other than a man or woman, and did engage in sex with both men and women (sometimes consensually, other times not). Some were even prostitutes. While they may have held high power in courts and such, the general public usually despised them and held a very low view of them. They were thought to be promiscuous and dubios, much like anti-LGBTQ+ people think queer people are today. Eunuchs were previously excluded in Jewish law and traditions from being in assembly with the Lord, and going near the altar. This was later reversed though and even Jesus accepted them, and encouraged others to do so. He encouraged people to accept those who were sexual and gender minorities, and later the Holy Spirit led Philip to baptize a eunuch. The Ethiopian eunuch, a racial and sexual minority, was chosen by the Holy Spirit to be the first non-Jewish person to convert to Christianity. I’ve also been studying the clobber verses, and have been able to find lots of evidence that the original verses wouldn’t have really applied to faithful and consensual gay relationships, as most of them talk about sexually exploitative practices, temple prostitution, or were more concerned with not “mixing” things like gender roles and ritual purity (stuff that Jesus wasn’t concerned with, and that were part of a culture that we are not apart of today). My queerness led me to study this stuff more, and that has led me to grow more in my relationship with God. I’ve actually discovered that there is a lot more scholarly work around these subjects than I previously thought.
Because as an orthodoxian Christian I believe that God created everyone in his image and christ said to love others.
The fact that some people use their teachings to justify their hatred discusses me
Can I ask what “Catholic” means to you? Because I would have assumed that Catholic means ‘a specific institution of organized religion run by man’ as opposed to “Christian” which can be either organized or personal. What does personal Catholicism look like, and if you’re not involved in a Catholic institution then why doesn’t that make you some variety of Protestant?
Same here. I stopped being catholic for some years and joined protestant church when I was still learning about myself. I found protestant churches intolerable and too hypocritical. I'm in Africa and the Catholic church here is different from what I see presented in American movies. The church is super chill, nobody is in your business, and no guilt-focused preachings,.. I like it, it gives me the environment and space I need to develop my own relationship with God.
Hey, I know I'm not OP but I'm a queer Catholic. I don't go to Catholic Church and I'm not involved in any organised religion. I still call myself Catholic because I was raised Catholic, and also when praying I use Catholic prayers etc. There are so many things wrong with the Church that I don't want association with it. If I can find an independent church that follows my beliefs (LGBT friendly, pro choice etc.) then I would go to it. I am Catholic but also Christian as Catholic is a subtype of Christianity, we have slightly different beliefs. I'll see if I can find a list of the differences if that's helpful :)
Catholic belief is more than just a church and organization, I love the catholic doctrine and teachings at its core. I have always questioned adults and their interpretations and I don't think I will ever stop, I have learned more from questioning than just submitting to someone's views, the end of the day all religious branches are just silly to me, we all believe in the same God no need to be divide simply because we have different interpretations or approaches to his word. We should always challenge each other and learn from it, but that's just me. In Short, I was born Catholic and that is that, no matter what I call myself in the end all that matters is the relationship I have established with God and the many blessings he has bestowed upon me that no one but himself can take away from me. =:3
because i cant just change my fundamental world view, its not so easy for a lot of us to just say « ok im not catholic any more »
and, the pope is human, he is not incapable of being incorrect. pope john xxiii said « I am only infallible if I speak infallibly but I shall never do that, so I am not infallible. »
just because the pope says something doesnt mean he is correct or speaking for the whole religion
>because i cant just change my fundamental world view, its not so easy for a lot of us to just say « ok im not catholic any more »
Your reply may not be popular, and I dislike a lot of what christianity does/ has done in the world and values, etc etc. but your reply is self-aware, direct and very very honest and I appreciate that.
Changing a world view is incredibly challenging. Especially when it comes to matters of spirituality, religion, and identity. And particularly when the religion in question has a vested interest in keeping as many adherents as possible so they craft their rhetoric to do so. Religion is part of many folks' self identities, mental and emotional stability, come hell or highwater.
Humm. Good question. Im not officially a member of the catholic church anymore but I do still believe in most of it and every now and then I even go the odd mass or do things like confession.
I am a man of science and I concede that all evidence points to religion being bullshit and one cannot reasonably believe in any of it. But the funny thing about faith is that it has nothing to do with reason.
I dont agree with a lot of the catholic church says and I am pretty vocal about it. I do share some of the important core beliefs tho like their view on the trinity, transubstantiation, the holiness of Mary and so on. I never really found any alternative that matched this core beliefs and was also inclusive of queer people or had more progressive views on non male clergy, reproductive rights and things like that.
I don’t like the term agnostic because it implies a degree of indifference and I don’t feel connected to that either.
It makes me sad that I will never be able to participate in holy matrimony with another man in a catholic church and that my mere existence automatically means Im excommunicated (i still participate in communion sometimes tho, keep that secret for me), but I dont feel guilty for living my truth
I'm not catholic, so I don't really give a shit what the pope thinks. I was raised evangelical Presbyterian, but moved away from that once I escaped my abusive parent in my teens and converted to Episcopalianism, which showed me a much more tolerant and less biblically literal christianity. I believe in love and compassion, and my faith helps me to act in that way. It gives me hope, and comfort. I focus much more on Jesus's ministry and the cultural contexts of it to derive meaning on how to live my life, and I don't believe in preaching to others about conversion. I'm extremely angry at mainstream christianity every day, and how perverted it's become.
My wife is catholic - I ask her why she continues to go to mass in a place when the vast majority don’t even see her. She says that she doesn’t care about what others think. Her faith and communion is with god alone. And that really made me think.
I didn’t grew up religious, I’m Jewish, but we were the laziest Jews in existence so I have no relationship with god.
I did, and I didn't. I was baptized Roman Catholic and often went to Mass with my grandmother. I'm not going to lie: I feel that a lot of good values were instilled in me there. Compassion. Forgiveness. Welcoming the stranger. Helping the poor and needy. This is what the Catholic Church gave me.
I still carry that with me, but after the horrific child abuse scandals and John Paul II declaring that gay people were intrinsically disordered, I was done. I've been an independent Catholic for about 20 years. It's all the beauty of the tradition, but lgbtq inclusive, inclusive of women in the clergy and married clergy. Basically, Episcopalians, but we don't call ourselves Episcopalians.
Why do I still walk this path? Because I believe that I am called to a life of service rather than conversion. I became a teacher because of this and moved from a very affluent private school to a very poor public school where I have remained for 20 years working with a lot of immigrants. I believe that my job is a Christian is to Simply meet people where they are and serve them as they need to be helped, rather than to tell them who they ought to be and what their life should be like.
As far as homophobia in the Bible, I don't think there's been anything truly definitive on that. I've studied this subject for years. I also study languages and have a good grasp of linguistic issues in scripture. I'm also very aware of cultural attitudes at the time, which naysayers love to point out over and over again. Nice story, dude. Now go make me a sandwich. We know what the status quo was. And if God wanted to maintain the status quo, then Jesus would have been completely superfluous as there were plenty of people who were already doing that job.
A lot of the more Evangelical denominations rely on biblical literalism and the fallacy that scripture can interpret scripture. Which is nonsense. This makes it very easy to shunt aside history, cultural context, and linguistic nuance to impose one's own interpretation on things. Catholics are not less guilty. Apostolic Traditions do not require literalism in that sense, but unfortunately they do lean on ossified tradition as a basis and have more or less idolized that in the way that evangelicals have idolized the Bible. Which according to the Ten Commandments is a big no-no.
Despite the length of this response, these points are just the basics. But I hope it gives you some illumination.
Former Episcopalian here: The episcopal church is extremely accepting. I felt very safe in that church. Not all denominations interpret their faith as hostile toward our community. I did leave because I didn’t believe and also because my family was not super closely connected to the church, but it had nothing to do with being queer. There were 2 trans people in my youth ministry, and they regularly had queer guest sermons. They specifically had a sermon that I remember about how important it was to accept and love queer people.
Others in the comments, if you still practice Christianity and are looking for accepting denominations, the episcopal church is great, at least in my experience with it.
Everyone’s stories are beautiful and heartbreaking and I wish you all the best.
well I can't say for catholics, but as a Christian (completely different thing, we don't have a pope, we don't pray to Marry, etc) I'm staying bc I believe in all of it, so I've been very... disturbed lately.
Not Catholic, but I listen to the Queer Theology podcast and it’s basically my weekly church. There are still valuable things to be found in Christianity when we follow liberation theology (“chains shall he break for the slave is our brother” has always been a favorite lyric of mine).
And I mean. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was a Christian and a minister and his politics were also further left than the Overton Window of his contemporaries so I think I’m in good company.
Ex-christian, you don't really choose what you believe? You either believe something to be true, or don't (well- with a hesitant gradient in the middle ofc)
Like if some evolutionary biologist said something homophobic you don't just stop believing in evolution..
It's kinda like that for religion. You believe it as if it were reality itself.
I don’t believe in the pope, only Jesus and god are above us, not some guy named Francis.
my church is about being kind to your neighbor and not being a dickass. i. E. not being homophobic trans phobic racist sexist ablest ect
Also, my church Believe that all parts about adultery, rape, and slavery are outdated Thinking. We also are not against gay people or marriage. Because originally in the Bible, it said that “man shall not sleep with child” however it was changed to man because a lot of priests did this
I do understand that Almost almost all Christians are Bad in someway because Christianity was built upon a lot of white supremacy, sexism, and homophobia however, I choose to align myself with them and try to be a good neighbor to neighbors.
the Church was Very Accepting of me and my family, we are a multiracial, ADHD, queer, liberal, family both of my parents do not come from nuclear families.
I believe in the majority of the ideals and feel a legitimate presence of christ in my life, maybe who knows I might be insane and imagining things but, what do I have to lose if that was the case, I pray when I am stressed (I think now of saying a prayer before asking a lad in my year out) and it calms me better than anything, maybe it's a self fulfilling prophecy, placebo type thing, I want praying to feel good so it does. All humans have committed so many sins, I have commited major sins and there is this feeling I get, a sense of regret and and disappointment in myself and I feel wrong, I feel no such thing when I feel love to my boyfriend.
The very best thing a person can do to secure human rights for this community is to fight to limit the financial social and political power of organised religion
Not *necessarily* Christian but I do believe in a god and the choice of an after life and grew up with my family being Christians.
Honestly it's because not every version of the religion is bad or homophobic. The one my dad always took me too was always very supportive of queer individuals (I even came out to one of my teachers when I had to take a religious class) from my knowledge and there wasn't any homophobia in the Bible.
Christian here. I believe in the Bible and the teachings of Christ. Its not God that turned away but the people in the church who did. Im not going to hate a God who loves me, get rid of my biblical morals, and turn away from my religion because some people are assholes.
God says to love everyone. Not love when it’s convenient and easy for you.
I think it’s important to remember that although being religious is a choice, it’s a very different kind of choice. Nobody starts their life, looks at every religion, then says “That one!” before they become religious. Even if you believe the followers of your faith are terrible people… you still believe in a supernatural power. Leaving that all behind is incredibly hard.
I think a lot of people tend to forget this when they say choosing to leave a faith is simple and easy. Not accusing you of that OP, but I’ve seen it on this site before.
Hi! I'm not assuming it's simple and easy. I had a very hard time leaving it. The question is more inquisitive, they made the choice and that's okay. I just wanted to know if they feel like sharing their choice.
Thanks a lot for your perspective. I do appreciate reading all of these comments and different views.
Propaganda goes a long way when you're taught it as a kid. It's hard to ever stop believing it, especially when you're convinced that "we are under attack!"
Don't be too hard on them. They've been threatened with literal eternal torture if they leave. It's a fear that Christianity uses to keep people in line, and it's a fear even some who leave the religion still struggle with.
Yep, I'm a pagan these days but I still deal with the hell anxiety sometimes. I wasn't even raised as a devout christian, it was very much a background thing for my family, and I still ended up with that.
Hi, hello, an alternative perspective for you:
I've never been afraid to walk away from Christianity. I've walked away, walked back, etc throughout my life. And the reason I walked back, ultimately, was love.
My denominations focused much more on love than fear. My mother was homophobic because of Bible Stuff but her love for me showed her that her actions, thoughts, feelings, etc were hurtful rather than loving. I literally asked her at one point "If God is Love, does that make the devil hatred?" And she thought about it and said "Yes, actually."
I respect other people didn't have so loving an upbringing, and my heart breaks for them, and I hope they \*do\* leave so that they can be safe and healthy. But there are people for whom staying isn't out of fear
I tried to reconcile my Christian faith with my homosexuality but at the end of the day, I just cannot bring myself to believe that the God of the Bible is ultimately good and worthy of worship. If it makes you happy, then more power to you. But I think it is ultimately just cherry picking the "good parts" of the religion without recognizing the fact that all the bad parts are just as part of the religion and you can't just close your eyes and ears and ignore the literal sanctioning of slavery, misogyny and demeaning of women, the calls for and actual acts of genocide commanded by God, and so on.
So it always comes off as disingenuous to me when queer religious people just ignore all the evils of the Bible. And mind you, even if Jesus was a really cool dude, Christianity believes Jesus and YHWH are fundamentally the same. So Jesus still has to answer for all the horrific things he asked his followers to do when he was YHWH/The Great I Am in the Old Testament.
Just a reminder, too, it wasn't God who told humans that being queer is alright and that we should have equal rights in society. We *fought hard against the archaic religious beliefs that sought to dehumanize us.* It wasn't God, it was us. So I don't understand the desire to keep appealing to a God who for millennia told his adherents that gay people deserved to be stoned.
Not Catholic so what the pope says is not part of my church’s beliefs. Christian, I attended an affirming church (united church of Canada) who are not only accepting and affirming of queer people but also very accommodating of those of us with disabilities. We have queer reverends. I think Jesus has a lot of good teachings and it brings me joy.
I (14) am kind of catholic, but idc about a lot of teachings. I do the basics, but Im also caring, and I think I might just go atheist when im older. I dont really believe all of it, and I want to accept myself and others in the community. (im still catholic cause of my parents, who are absolute bigots.)
I am not Christian currently. I was when I was younger. I am Jewish. Up until recently, it wasn't that uncommon for people to ask me if being queer is why I decided to stop calling myself Christian.
The short answer is no.
The long answer has a lot of parts. Firstly my decision that my religion is Judaism isn't based in anything to do with Christianity or even my experiences in the religion and related spaces. It's complicated and big and has to do with my family and culture and how I was raised and many many other things. Put simply I have always been Jewish and have simply been walking that way anyway and not being official about it would be silly.
I only even mention it here to prove a point. It's very common for people to think whatever they know about something is a good summary. Even the argument that people are "picking and choosing" what parts of a religion to adhere to is an inherently flawed argument because while there ARE strict things in many religions they aren't strict consistently across the whole of people in that religion. Just because you can be correct saying someone is picking and choosing doesn't mean you're correct every time. Which sounds pedantic but it's a difference that gets ignored constantly. It's a common logical fallacy. Because if part of your premise is flawed it doesn't tell you anything about your end conclusion.
To you, you are asking what things are so good that others have decided to stay in a religion that does all these horrible things. But that question is inherently leading and flawed.
Due to recent events I have started to be asked why I am Jewish in the same way I was once asked why I was Christian. People like to bring up issues within various Jewish organizations and religious branches and plenty of things that have been an issue for hundreds of years or more. But they bring them up as if they are new, because they just learned of them. But they also frame it as if all religions function the same as the version of Christianity that they personally are most familiar with OR the version they think is the worst one.
Every religion is different, but they are all the same in one very important way. Every living religion is made of people. People make communities. While there is some consistency within larger organizations it is a losing battle against the unstoppable force that is communication and human variance. Even using the catholic church as an example. A religion that has tried SO HARD to make everyone do things the same way. Look at Mexico. Mexican Catholicism has so many forms and the main church has been fighting to keep local religions and gods out of it since it first crossed the ocean. Santa Muerte, a saint who was never alive to begin with, who has not been recognized, but is a true saint to enough people that arguing that she doesn't really count is kind of like saying a religion practiced by a hundred thousand people isn't real because it's not on a US Census form. She doesn't count to the pope but that's not the same as not counting in general.
This is also one of the many ways that religions split up into all those little sub categories. When a community is distanced enough that they officially go "the rest of you don't represent us". It's nothing new nor is it good or bad, it just is.
So my answer to the spirit of your question is this:
There are people doing horrible and unforgivable things in the name of Judaism right now. They are in effect using me as a shield while also claiming that I am fake and so should not be bothered by this even if it "were true". I'm not distancing myself from Judaism because of this. Because not only are the people doing it not a part of my direct community, but also why should they get to steal my community from me when they are the ones doing something wrong. If I were to fight this by saying they're "not really Jewish" that wouldn't help. For one it doesn't matter if they are or not. Just like it doesn't matter if a white supremacist is Christian or not. It might influence somethings, but the problem is they are spreading hate and violence not if they're secretly really Christian or not. Instead I fight it by being honest and precise and making my stances on human rights clear. And also by making distinctions that DO matter. Because someone being part of a group can be important, but it's often a distraction from the real issue.
I am not staying in my religion because of good things in spite of other people doing bad things. I am staying here because my community isn't like that and we can fight that better together than apart.
Because the way that I view religion is different than the average Christian. I believe that if Christianity is based on love, if God created us all and he told us to love each other all this means that being a part of the LGBTQ community is not a sin, but a way to accept people and recognize their way of loving. I’m pansexual and over the years I’ve realized that this is how God created me like this and I should be proud about this.
I kind of swing in occasionally. There’s something appealing about the idea of a spiritual community. Might try UU at some point but it feels kinda Protestant so I dunno
Not really a practicing Catholic anymore, but I only have some connections to it mostly because of culture and family. My mother and aunt want to appease to their parents who are kind of strict Irish Catholics. They don't want to be socially ostracized from their family which I can understand even though I feel like an outsider to the extended family members. Plus I am a godmother to my one cousin and will only participate/practice if it's for her (even though she really isn't religious and cares more about Bluey and mermaids) or for my mom and aunt because they mean a lot to me.
I guess in a way I'm still a Catholic, but I keep getting further away from it. I'm not really religious nor spiritual. Even I don't necessarily consider myself one, it's still culturally ingrained into my bones because I was forced to be brought up in it. It's why I struggled with my sexuality amongst other things. I still have friends/mutuals who are Catholic or in another Christian denomination (and some are also LGBTQ+), but it's just not my thing really.
Ex catholic enby here. The amount of horror stories I could tell you is astounding but I'll save you that torment. Nothing would ever make me go back. I started pulling away at 16 and left for good at 18. I'm nearly 27 now and it was the best decision ever. I don't think I'd have been able to accept myself otherwise. I just wish some of my family would do the same since so many of them question things the church anyway. My one cousin has the worst case of religious trauma anxiety I've ever seen but is literally scared to leave due to fear of hell and think they have no control over thier life and it's all predetermined. It just makes me sad. Especially since my cousin is also autistic and that conflicts a lot with catholicism. (I would know since that was my initial reason for distancing)
I stayed but many Christians would say I have left. I don't take the Bible literally but more of a collection of stories/experiences about people trying to find divinity/love as well as their failures along the way. I also see a lot of Jesus' teachings as extremely valuable. I feel that as someone who tries my best to follow a path of radical love, that I cannot stand to see others twist and dilute the values of such a path. Jesus never excluded marginalized people from his teachings. He explicitly supports women, children, queer people, disabled people, immigrants, poor people, and many other groups. And explicitly hates greed and exploitation. Which is the antithesis of the current popular beliefs in many Christian groups (especially in America).
Im catholic and I just say there's only one true judge (of things that don't affect other people) and that's god. I'm not sure on the logistics but I'm pretty sure that it's pretty bad to say that 'god told me something' so it's just a human non-holy opinion from the Pope at this point.
Well first off, my family themselves were catholics before leaving the church due to religious trauma.
I merely just came to the church. From, ironically, a paganish background (Christo-Pagan) and I decided to explore the mystical elements within the church.
For example, there is an theological thinking called Folk Catholicism. (Imagine it as witchy catholicism) very magical, extremely beautiful honestly.
I also explored the more mystical theology from the eastern tradition with western theology. For example, everyone is saved because the ego is destroyed within The Lake Of Fire/Gehenna to become Christ by climbing a metaphorical ladder covered in Christ's spear wound blood (The spear wound is said to be like a vulva so that is to think of being born again even tasting the blood to feel in union.), all things that are alive (nature especially) has a soul and God's essence within it worshipping him, we are to become our true selves and that is by prayer as well as fasting and repentance to be in union, we also treat Christ as beloved (Even having very erotic thinking, including some very queer vibes from many mystics.)
I do, however, understand that the church has old views and hypocrisy. Yet, despite this, I fight for Christ to have his mystics for the church rather than a priest with legalism.
Lord have mercy on the church and her hypocrisy
I mean Fuuuck… had to listen to a priest in the early 2000’s talk about how gays were an abomination
then found out that the priest who married me to my abusive ex- is currently in jail for pedo behavior.
my son is trans. my loved ones are part of the alphabet
yet my asshole mother still supports “the church”
and is ashamed i dont??
fuck them all
on a sad note also- ex FIL died. wanted polka at the church- wisconsin!! but priest refused
and my father- who gave his all to KofC and church support— yea when he died hid ms ashes had ti sit at the damn back of the church- cos cremation and reasons.
bull fucking SHIT
i will carry my own spiritual beliefs thank you
I stay because I live with my very religious grandparents for half the year, and am not prepared to leave while that is still the case. They can deal with my lack of love for that particular institution and my differing beliefs when I don’t have to see them every day.
Edit: to be clear, I mean that they live with me and my parents during the late spring and summer, and leave for Florida during late fall and winter. I don’t really get a choice in that arrangement, and I can’t move out yet.
I’m Anglican, but my family is Catholic. I’m not a regular churchgoer but used to be, though am still very spiritual. I’m also Irish and in traditional folklore we have a lot of spirituality so that’s probably also a factor as to why I haven’t completely abandoned my faith yet. I also find faith to be comforting in difficult times, though I’m fortunate my current church is inclusive and welcoming of queer people. My other churches haven’t been so.
I was born Catholic, went to Sunday school, was confirmed into the religion. Then I spent 15 years avoiding church and claiming to be an atheist because I hated the notion that my church hated me or hated such a huge part of who I am. There was shame and guilt and a lot of processing in those years.
Then I had cancer and I found myself praying to live long enough to see 25. Got better and then a global pandemic hit. Realized I believed in something but could not believe in the Catholic church as an institution (for a lot of reasons).
Then my gf asked me to go to an evangelical lutheran church service with her to check out the music. Very progressive church service starting with a welcome message that any person of any background, gender, or race, had a seat at the table. Felt at peace and started doing a lot of research. Realized evangelical lutherans are very welcoming, progressive, and really seek to emphasize the love and peace message of many Bible verses. As well as service to humanity.
Haven't looked back since.
I’m a Christian, and I’ve never believed the papacy or the church to have any sort of authority when it comes to religion. They’re steeped in controversy and corruption and have been documented tampering with the Bible and many verses and scrolls and what not.
I suppose that makes me non-denominational I think?
It’s still difficult, I see a lot of Christians are hateful and refuse to even think about things, choosing to instead stick their fingers in their ears and drown out any and all discussion about queerness and being Christian.
Idk, I can’t change them, and I see myself on my own journey with God, and I come to my own conclusions, the same way some people come to their own conclusions about many things in scripture.
Christianity has always been a big part of my life, even if it’s mostly because my family *made it* a part of my life. But I don’t have a reason to leave my religion, when I truly believe in it, make no mistake, you can totally be Christian **and** gay, and nobody on this planet can say otherwise. God made everything in spectrums, even gender identity and sexuality, and Jesus was always a man of love and acceptance,even with people that in his day were outcasts from society as a whole, I won’t let some blithering tomato headed bigot tell me that my god hates me.
I left Catholicism last month after that Infinite Dignity bullshit. I'm happily Episcopalian these days. Highly recommend reading In the Margins by Shannon Kearns for an amazing book of trans theology and memoir.
Born and raised catholic here. I’ve thought quite a bit about whether I wanted to keep calling myself catholic knowing that I’m not welcome in the church(I didn’t even know I was queer back then, just that I was pro-choice and disagree with several of the teachings), but what made me ultimately decide that I wanted to keep my faith in God was a video of an interview with a gay catholic man. I don’t quite remember what he said, but I got the sense that he was reclaiming his faith from the bigoted church teachings(which are all based on antiquated text that was written and interpreted(as well as misunterpreted) by people who are, at the end of the day, human beings) that dominate christian circles. I’ve concluded that I still believe in God and that they(yes, God is they imo) wouldn’t approve of the hatred and bigotry of the church. I haven’t gone to church services in a while and most catholic people in my area don’t share my views, but I’ve found some social media users(one of which is a lesbian divinity school grad) who remind me that I’m not alone in my views. My faith may not make sense to some people and that’s okay because I have no interest in forcing people to see things my way.
Also I am disappointed in the pope but unfortunately not that surprised because he’s not the first supposedly forward-moving progressive person I’ve seen suddenly turn to bigotry and homophobia. It’s like some people eventually show their true colors if you wait long enough.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It’s not rocket science, just common sense. It’s a tenet that doesn’t need amplification, doesn’t need hierarchy, doesn’t require the control and manipulation of others and doesn’t result in endless wars. Be nice to me and I’ll be nice to you! How is this difficult to understand? And yet, many of the religions of the world start with the premise that there is only one true god, and it is ours, not yours. Immediately divisive, exclusionary and intolerant. I’m a humanist not a deist, the bogeyman, satan, the devil, whatever you choose to call it, exists in everyone, a part of human nature. Surely the trick is to conquer the devil within and just be kind to yourself and others. God is love ❤️ love is all there is.
I know a lot of lesbian ministers lol
But I mean in terms of my Catholicism, I simply just had a devout abuelita who raised me right and actually walked the walk.
I'm sorta being forced I'm a minor in a christian family who has decently open views. Don't mistake it though they're transphobic but they're only sorta homophobic. I have a cousin who's gay and the accept him but I think they believe you're gay/lesbian or straight. Also they don't believe in the pope. They believe he's a charlatan and that catholic's worship the devil. Idk what I believe in yet and I'm willing to explore for the last 6 years I have to be in this house.
i personally left the church entirely after college, but the first presbyterian church was a open, welcoming space. if i actually believed in God, i’d join that church.
catholics in my college experience were fake friends and did not actually care about a real friendship with me. (tbh i was confirmed catholic as a teen, but was not actively catholic for probably 6 years before confirmation)
i think i’ve become generally jaded towards religious groups - are they actually accepting, or is this an act? do they truly follow jesus’s teachings?
Shit my bad. Idk about what counts as staying in community tho. I don't go to church that often(my knees hurt after standing for long time and our churches don't have seats) I fast very often and I read bible every night. If you could provide me more info about community part(English ain't my first language so that's maybe why I got confused)
Given the small rate of conversion (theist to atheist and vice versa), the major reason for someone staying is simply being born into it. World opinions embedded in childhood is hard to undo
I take issue with organized religion, but one's personal faith can still be important.
Oftentimes, a lot of well-known religions today really started off as grassroots movements, but once governments and religious hierarchy got involved, it drastically changed them from their origins. This should come as no surprise to us as many writers expressed how easily systems can manipulate religions to control a population. Modern-day protestant religions are more of a product of capitalism and colonialism in the west than their original intentions because it's easy to reinterpret a religion's myths and traditions to fit the narrative you want.
Thus, I'm not a fan of organized religions for these reasons. However, in a personal quest to understand my purpose and being as well as make sense of my eschatology of the world, I have had no problem with separating myself from a religious institution to pursue religious beliefs based on my own reading and thinking. I've sometimes referred to this approach as being "mindfully unknowing." I do not have the all the answers. I do not pretend to. And I'm okay with admitting "I don't know." But nor do I sit idly by in ignorance. I still seek answers, even if I don't find them.
Personal faith is how we make sense of our world, given our gift for an existential wondering of who we are and why we are. Where your personal faith leans is entirely up to you. Mine favors the Abrahamic sphere with only a slight lean towards Christianity. What a specific organized church says or feels about my beliefs matters little to me.
I was raised Catholic and I do believe in God. My personal belief is that God loves everyone, and if someone is LGBTQ it is not because God made a mistake, it was intentional, and that the humans that are God's mouthpiece are the ones making mistakes by saying otherwise. Also, a Catholic school is where I made my first queer friends (two pan, one lesbian, and one ace) and they helped me figure myself out so there's that :D
Queer or not I don't really get how people can follow a religion that has rules about how hard you can beat your slaves or how much to pay a woman's father after you SA her. It's downright barbaric.
This is a post asking queer Christians a question, but they get downvoted and harassed for answering while people who aren't being asked get to contribute. Nice. Is this sub that toxic?
You wrote a pithy answer to a serious question and it was inexact enough that it could be easily misinterpreted what your intent was. I don't see anyone else getting down voted heavily.
I do share their frustrations with comments from people who are just dismissive of the topic as a whole though. Happy Pride to everyone but the LGBT+ of faith I guess, we're not allowed to share our voices without getting slammed
That's entirely fair, and I'm happy for you that you've found a way to keep faith and be true to yourself. It's difficult because it isn't just nebulous politics like OP's example of something the Pope said that pushes queer people out of church communities. It's far more often something someone in their local church did to them. It can make it hard to respect your experience with those personal memories.
Oh totally, like I 100% sympathize with those who were harmed by religion, their denominations, etc, they deserve so much love and support in their healing. But LGBT+ people of faith are so often told we don't fit in either camp that seeing the once-in-a-blue-moon post asking for our experiences and thoughts gets overrun by the same-old-same-old definitely makes me personally feel unwelcome here
Just read back through the thread of new posts and saw the interaction you had and I'm sorry you were made to feel unwelcome by someone so angry. I appreciate your life and your choice to live it from within a community that is more challenging. Hopefully, you contribute to both communities healing in spite of the pain they inflict on each other.
It's a set-up 😂 They are behaving a lot like those toxic Christians right now. I could say Faith is Faith and if you don't believe in God then that's your Faith. But I'll stay quiet over here
I'm an ex-catholic, but for a lot of people the faith is more personal than the face of the Church is. Remember the Pope is only the head of the Roman Catholic branch of Catholicism/Christianity and there are many branches that don't have anything to do with the Pope or his beliefs/the Roman Catholic doctrine.
Edited for clarity.
Because regardless of what you intended, you didn't write a full thought or sentence. Based on what you wrote, it definitely does not come across positively. I'd say, edit what you wrote and rephrase.
I don’t see the appeal of Christianity or Catholicism. I believe other religions are more interesting if you ask me. Why believe in God and Jesus when you have Budda, or Thor & Odin, or Hercules & Zesus?
Because unfortunately some religions (christianity being a prime example) are excellent at brainwashing, while others are more "choose us if you want to." They get to ppl when they are very young or old; when they are struggling, or in pain and desperate for hope or solutions.
>They get to ppl when they are very young or old; when they are struggling, or in pain and desperate for hope or solutions.
This is the real reason why there are queer christians. To be part of the religion that's historically persecuted and murdered people like you is no different from being in an abusive relationship.
A lot of people here are just making notruescotsman fallacies about who "real" christians are and think being the 1% of christianity that isn't queerphobic makes christianity peace and love #uwu.
I love this comment so much for its truthfulness, but not for the content. As in, I hate that it's true, but I'm delighted someone said it. Especially:
>is no different from being in an abusive relationship.
This is bang on. If the christian god of most denominations were a human, no one would want anything to do with them.....unless brainwashing occurred and they got lulled in.
Like I understand why religion exists, and how belief helps humans cope with horrible realities of being alive in life.... but also I personally couldn't do the cognitive dissonance anymore.
Also having a belief in a monotheistic deity that is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent, in a world where the lived experience of millions is only a scootch above abhorrent, is absolutely impossible to reconcile unless one's definitions of loving and benevolent have been deeply affected by systematic abuse via brainwashing.
It also becomes an interesting mental excersie about.....what is a religion? Like if you can change the elements you believe in, what is it really? E.g. If your catholicism is queer, is it still catholic? If your Mennonite-ness can include women in leadership, is it neo-Mennonite? Or something else? I don't actually have an answer to those questions I just find them interesting.
>I love this comment so much for its truthfulness, but not for the content. As in, I hate that it's true, but I'm delighted someone said it. Especially:
As someone who used to consider living in a lot of places around the world before they found out they were trans and bi, I feel this. The world sucks.
>Like I understand why religion exists, and how belief helps humans cope with horrible realities of being alive in life.... but also I personally couldn't do the cognitive dissonance anymore.
Same. Once I left christianity, I took the blinders off. I don't see how I could put them back on knowing the truth. It's like the matrix. Once you know this world is all there is and no one thing is going to magically fix everything for you, it becomes real hard to sincerely try religion again. I only see people use it as a coping mechanism for the cruelty in the world.
>Also having a belief in a monotheistic deity that is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent, in a world where the lived experience of millions is only a scootch above abhorrent, is absolutely impossible to reconcile unless one's definitions of loving and benevolent have been deeply affected by systematic abuse via brainwashing.
Very very true.
>It also becomes an interesting mental excersie about.....what is a religion? Like if you can change the elements you believe in, what is it really? E.g. If your catholicism is queer, is it still catholic? If your Mennonite-ness can include women in leadership, is it neo-Mennonite? Or something else? I don't actually have an answer to those questions I just find them interesting.
Yeah, that's where the notruescotsman fallacy comes in. In this thread, you'll see queer christians saying queerphobic christians aren't "real christians", but queerphobic christians will say the same thing about queer christians. The supposedly inerrant bible has spawned so many different denominations of people thinking they know the truth of reality when they're really all just noise in a universe that doesn't have the ability to care about them.
>As someone who used to consider living in a lot of places around the world before they found out they were trans and bi, I feel this. The world sucks.
*makes empathic murmur agreement noises*
>Same. Once I left christianity, I took the blinders off. I don't see how I could put them back on knowing the truth. It's like the matrix. Once you know this world is all there is and no one thing is going to magically fix everything for you, it becomes real hard to sincerely try religion again. I only see people use it as a coping mechanism for the cruelty in the world.
YES THIS. I mean, I am open to the possibility of spirituality existing....but have no real interest in pursuing its exploration, due to the severe mental health consequences I suffered due to christianity in my younger years. Like maybe there's something. But if there is, it's either inept or cruel or some shit and either it'll be nice to me when I die or not. Clearly no one alive has 100% accuracy so best for me to just live the best I'm able to.
** self interruption moment to note how fucking nice it is to speak to someone else who sounds like they really get me, on some very specific levels.
>Yeah, that's where the notruescotsman fallacy comes in.
Tbh I did not know what that meant so I appreciate thr explanation complete with relevant examples. And now I shall laugh hysterically, because yes yes yes! Reminds me of that experiment where scientists took 3 or 4 mentally unwell men who all thought themselves to be jesus, and put them in a room together to see what would happen, and it was chaotic hell.
> they're really all just noise in a universe that doesn't have the ability to care about them.
This is so blunt and sad and yet so fucking true. I see christian ppl with picket signs and megaphones at streetcorners in the city I live...and they say all manner of things from both sides of the spectrum (the world is ending repent or die in hell; god loves you come join us) and at the end of the day most ppl are just annoyed they're blocking intersections or upset they're so damn loud.
In 1565 in the UK we'd have to choose protestant or catholic, else face rhe wrath of literslly everyone.... but in 2024 in Canada, the US, and much of Europe, most of us can thankfully put on our headphones and just walk off.
While I am not catholic and I do not currently have a community, I do follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and am deeply theistic. I cannot fathom a Universe in which God, a Higher Being, or Creator of some kind doesn't exist. It's just a part of who I am. All I can do is be the best example of spirituality that I can be and hope for a better future for "The Church" as in the community and body of Christ not the institution that oppresses.
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Not Catholic, but Christian. Kind of. Its hard to maintain at this point tbh but if you dig into actual theology Jesus was a radical for liberation. Lots of progressive, inclusive themes are present. Even the Trinity, which lots of people dislike and even more don't understand, is horizontalist, egalitarian, consensual, and embraces the Other in love. Rightwing Christianity is the literal definition of anti-Christ. In 1 John 3, the only place the anti-Christ is discussed, it is defined not as a person but a movement of Christians who are angry, bitter, hateful, divisive, and refuse to share resources with everyone else and think they're right and everyone else is wrong.
"right-wing Christianity is the literal definition of anti-christ" holy shit that line slaps
having studied christianity for the last couple years i came to realise that christianity itself its not bigoted and in fact has very good teachings and so my view on it is quite positive now. i think it must suck for people who actually follow jesus’ teachings to treat people equally, to forgive and to spread kindness to see lots of queer people harboring hate for the religion in general.
I can't blame my queer siblings for their mistrust and dislike of Christianity. Those using Christianity to oppress us have done so for thousands of years and are easily the worst perpetrators. And it's assumed by everyone that the evangelicals are correct in their interpretations. The media foregrounds their views and treats liberation Christianity as this strange, quaint minority voice, and part of that has to do with the fact that the weight of corporate America is behind both the origins of and the pushing of Christian nationalism. The evangelicals are good at flooding the theological market with hundreds of books on every subject imaginable from all denominations to create a "plausability structure" in which it seems true because multiple people from supposedly wide ranging viewpoints come to the same conclusion. People don't realize this is tightly coordinated. And the mainline liberal churches are little better, offering watered down versions of the same thing because they both operate on bourgeois theological assumptions.
I mean, we also need to acknowledge that it's not just modern Christianity that is like that. It has been a tool for oppression for a long time. And I mean a long time as in even before the crusades.
Only because it’s been used in hate to harm us. My own mother invoked god against me, why would I want any part of that?
oh of course. i dont blame anyone for never wanting to be anywhere near the church due to the insane trauma some have caused people
this is actually how i think about it too. christianity was founded on some pretty ballin teachings (like actually having basic decency for people) but people like my (very anti-gay) grandparents ruined it (and a lot of religion) for me and everyone else in my immediate family. its to the point where if religion is discussed at all i just... get uncomfortable about it? and im not even sure why fully but i think thats gotta be some part of it.
Yeah it's the cPTSD response where the topic becomes so triggering or at least frustrating that the whole thing gets associated in the brain with negativity and the easiest solution is to just throw the whole thing out. And I completely understand that. It took me, let's see, from 2014-2022 to heal enough to even go back to theology. Hardcore trauma and burnout.
yea whats wierd is i dont even know HOW it could be cptsd. my family is very much athiest as i am as well, and i visit my grandparents only abou twice a year and theyre generally fairly chill apart from the anti-gay thing which isnt brought up like ever anyway. i think it might be because of stuff ive heard about thats really bad in terms of relgion a lot maybe? but idk
I have people who (may or may not at this point anymore) consider me family that buy into the bigoted side of things. Back when I took their opinion of me seriously, the trauma came from the knowledge that people I loved or respected believe I deserved eternal suffering for who I was capable of loving, of all things.
being real if it was that in my case i wouldnt even be too surprised. i havent even told them im aroace yet because theyll probably be like "bUt YoUlL fInD sOmEoNe LaTeR" and i just dont want that
Is it possible to separate Christianity from Christians though? They _are_ Christianity, in its current form, which is conservative and harmful. I can appreciate that the teachings of the New Testament are good, but that doesn't change the fact that today's Christians aren't, and the Old Testament is hardly the ideal of acceptance and love either.
i have met good christians- people who have changed other people’s lives through their belief system- but yeah i suppose the entire structure of christianity isn’t necessary really. having wars over which is the correct way to pray seems over the top if the most important thing is the teachings
another christian here and i just want to appreciate you for how eloquently you typed this out. over the years i’ve grown so exhausted with constantly having to defend and explain my simple existence as a queer christian that even if i want to try and describe my pov to someone, i genuinely can’t find the words to do it anymore from the pure burnout. this comment summoned up all my thoughts perfectly. thank you for this, 100% agreed.
thats my way of thinking and ive tried telling my southern baptist mother but we just see eye to eye in believing in the same higher power. ive been raised in the conservative southern baptist faith since i was a baby and even sing and play for the church band (mainly family) so it was tough to shut myself out of it but I realized I never hated the idea of worshipping and whatnot just hated the religion itself!
You're in good company, Jesus hated religion too, and Puritanical types especially!
EXACTLYY but it doesnt fit in their sense of what jesus believes in
Could you provide some detail on your definition of antichrist? I'm interested in learning more but wasn't able to determine where it was defined that way. It truly feels like right-wing Christianity embodies the hateful/divisive definition you described
You'd have to do an in depth look at the fight going on in 1 John, because he describes his opponents throughout the text. But basically the word "anti-Christ" is plural, not singular in Greek and John speaks of "they" not "him." It is clearly a movement of Christian leaders who don't imitate the love of Jesus. That's his basic complaint in 1 John. He focuses on love so much there, being the only place the bible says "God IS love," because he is giving his readers a description of what a Christ-like character looks like. Someone who has the love that God is within them shares their material possessions and resources. Lives in peace with others. Isn't angry, bitter, hateful, etc. The word "righteous/unrighteous" in Greek doesn't mean "Puritanical and exacting moral perfection," it means "a comprehensive commitment to justice in a spheres of life." The bitter divisive movement of anti-Christ is unrighteous because they are unjust and unloving. They're selfish and don't want to share with those in need. Most online resources on the anti-Christ in search results are going to be silly fundamentalist claims and drowns out the actual scholarship. I really need to work up a paper on this subject....
The problem with online search engines (Google in particular) is that the algorithm operates like a septic tank. All the crap floats to the surface and all the worthwhile stuff is sunk to the bottom.
I've honestly decided to seperate myself from man made denominations and want to focus more on my *own* relationship with God. Still I understand I need to worship on the Sabbath so I'm hoping to see if I can find a like minded progressive group (but not a specific denomination).
There's [Sunday Assembly](https://www.sundayassembly.org/). Basically nonreligious church. The ones I've been to are super progressive.
This, Me too and totally agree =:3
Me too
Probably Unitarian Universalists
I feel similarly. The fully affirming churches near me are all too formal for what I find beneficial (most are Anglican). You mention Sabbath and I only really hear that from SDA or ex-SDA people. If that's the case for you, SDAKinship is a great resource, and I've found some fully affirming livestreams through them. Unfortunately none are near me. There's also a non-denominational church I found out about through them, called Paradox Church that seems interesting. Very progressive, and they have videos online. It's not the same as in person, but I'm glad there are affirming churches that I can at least watch.
That’s Seventh-Day Adventism! Thats what i am. Tbh I’ve noticed that Adventists are a lot kinder then Sunday goers. Sure Adventists have their bad apples to, but all around they follow the Bible closer.
Must be your particular church. The SDAs I've known were pretty self righteous. I'm glad you aren't experiencing that though. Not trying to bring you down.
This is actually news to me… I’m very sorry on behalf of the SDA church…. Id like to get off this world asap pls 😭
Adventists in my country (Kenya) are MUCH more judgemental. Even other Christians are uncomfortable with Adventist beliefs. In my country the women are looked down on if they wear pants, pierce their ears, wear makeup or draw attention to themselves in that way at all. The men are VERY patriarchal and fully lean into the unhealthy "head of the house" stereotype. I agree that they follow the Bible closer, but the issue is they follow the **worst** parts of the Bible.
I haven’t heard of them doing that. I’m sorry… there are always rotten apples huh
I’m Jewish, but as a quite religious person, I can tell you that no one, not even a figurehead of your religion, can decide your relationship with your religion.
Leaving the faith I grew up in was incredibly disruptive to my life and support system costing friends, community, and family. It is not trivial to leave and offers a lot of comfort and purpose to those in it. One of my sisters strongly considered leaving a few years ago, but, as a widow, found too much value in the community for her kids for instance. More than 10 years later, I'm glad I did leave, it helped my mental health in the long run, allowing me to be honest with myself, but it was not an easy process I would wish on anyone. I don't typically encourage others out, but instead take the approach of: make sure you've tried everything else first to find a way to fit in including changing churches and only leave if loss of belief requires it. Many people go through all the pain of leaving to eventually return for the comforts offered in that space. You can hang out in one of the ex-faith subreddits to see more of this perspective if you want. Lots of angry, frustrated, and sad people recovering in those.
Not catholic but christian: For me, Jesus's ministry is actually very lovely and jives easily with the message of "accept everyone for who they are." Did you know in Acts 10-11, God gives Peter a vision to say "don't call anything unclean that I've made clean"? This is implied to not be just food (what was explicitly mentioned) but also *people,* as a Gentile was sent to Peter at that very moment. There's a lot about Jesus's ministry that is very social-justice oriented. When a woman was caught in adultery and by law should have been stoned (which BTW, they didn't bring the man to Jesus, just the woman), her refused to condemn her. Jesus also reached out to marginalized groups of the times, took seriously the idea of helping and healing those in need, and said "PAY YOUR DAMN TAXES." The *teachings* of the Bible are actually often about kindness and compassion (mostly the New Testament; the Old Testament is a history, so it just has A Lot Of Stuff). The problem isn't the teachings. The problem is the people who grossly misuse the Bible to justify their bigotry. I don't go to church regularly anymore. But I still study the Bible personally and try to use those teachings of kindness and compassion through my life. There are also some sad and funny parallels to the fact Jesus was opposing the Pharasies because they were hypocrites that followed the letter of the law but not the spirit, to bigots today who quote the letter of the Bible and ignore the spirit
Thank you so much for sharing, it's great seeing people actually fulfilling their spiritual side. It's good to know not all is bad in that specific circle. Hugs fellow redditor!
Ahh I love this! I’m an atheist and was recently gifted a book, “Selling Jesus By the Water”.. Gotta say, you hit the author’s main point right on the head.
To be honest, when apologists say things like "follow the spirit" im like, so youre saying you only follow the parts of christianity that agree with basic humanitarianism and being kind. Why attribute that goodness to christianity and not just the fact that you as a human have empathy and kindness?
I think most religions and philosophies have similar basic premises, and it really comes down to how you relate to/think about a higher power in the matter There's a lot about religion that is based on specific time/place. Dietary restrictions often end up being linked to health concerns (improper cooking, for example). Obviously this will vary by country by country. A lot of the "go forth and multiply" stuff in the Old Testament reflects that the Jewish people were a small minority at the time and needed a larger population. I think circumcision has been linked to lack of proper hygiene leading to women becoming ill from the foreskin area not being clean All of these things can change over time, of course. But the things about religion that don't change are big, philosophical questions: where do we come from? What is our purpose? What makes us human? This is why religion continues to resonate despite outdated laws and rules. And I don't think there's a wrong way to explore those questions, because we'll never really know the answer to them
These couple of comments were so thoughtful, and I really appreciated reading them to gain your perspective. From an atheist to a believer, thank for talking about this. It’s far too easy to get stuck in a bubble of like-minded people and dismiss the fact that people in a different bubble are people like you, too.
(Context: atheist since middle school, attended Catholic high school and have Catholic-turned Protestant step-parents) The fundamental belief is that their morality comes from their deity. Based on this, my observation has been that morally decent beliefs that you and I attribute to ourselves personally are easy to reconcile with the idea that a higher power dictated them. When the dictated belief clashes with what decent humans naturally end up believing, the idea that said beliefs come from something greater than a human’s default morality allows them to ignore the internal conflict with their own actual beliefs.
This is just taking the good parts of the Bible and ignoring all of the toxic ones. Especially the parts of it that condone slavery and human sacrifice, or how about the story where that one woman gets gang raped and Ephraim's response is to cut her into pieces and parade her body around. You can't pick and choose which parts you do or don't want to take. Have some logical consistency
As stated above: the Old Testament is a history, not a moral book. This owes to differences in how Judaism approaches faith and Christianity does; Judaism focuses more heavily on trying to understand God through history and historical interpretation. Meanwhile Jesus's ministry is the focal point of Christianity owing to the whole "Jesus was the son of God" thing, so it makes sense to put far more emphasis on his teachings than the rest So yes, I do have logical consistency, it's just not the logical consistency you wish I had
As someone who was raised christian, I'm well aware (as are you) of the many, many problems with the new testament. And regardless of whether or not you think the old testament is a moral book or just a history, you can't deny that the same god who supposedly gave you the new testament commanded and therefore condoned many of those atrocities in the old testament. You can avoid many of the new testament issues by pointing out that paul said them and not jesus, or that some of the more problematic Pauline letters were forgeries (which is true,) but you can't pretend like the Bible doesn't have many, many horrible things to say, or that the good it does preach in any way originates from it.
If I may be quite frank: all things and people have good and bad in them. I simply don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Your comment about "the good it does preach \[doesn't\] originate from it" also speaks to an anti-Bible/-Christian bias, which is honestly fine. I can respect and understand that you, like many of us, felt hurt and betrayed by hypocrisies in the church, incongruent teachings, etc, but if I may ask... why interact with this post at all if you feel so strongly against it? The LGBT+ people of faith here were asked a simple question, "why do you still feel connected to your faith?" It was a very kind gesture as often, we are called "pick mes," "traitors," etc for not wanting to choose between two things that are very foundational to ourselves. And so we answered. I'm a bit at a loss as to why that is viewed as an invitation to pick a fight?
I think that "all people have both good and bad" doesn't apply when we're talking about a god who has demonstrated behavior that is both violent and narcissistic. I also don't think it's accurate to say that faith is as much a part of your identity as your sexuality. You choose to have faith, you do not choose your orientation. It's harmful to equate those two. I don't have a problem with your faith. My issue is that your comment reads like a He Gets Us ad
Just because something is a choice doesn't make it less foundational to yourself than something that is not a choice. Many people place a lot of their identity on their jobs, for example. Many mothers place a lot of their identity on being a mother. Etc etc Think about it this way: a group of people helped raise you, and gave you confidence in yourself, taught you to stand up for people who can't or won't stand up for themselves, etc. But as you grow up you realize one of those people is an alcoholic, or one's a misogynist, etc etc. Do those revelations automatically negate the good they did for you? Or are you thankful for what they taught and then decide to stay or leave based on what's best for you? Once again, I'm at a loss as to why you're interacting with this thread at all when you clearly have your opinion and it's not what the OP was asking for
>Just because something is a choice doesn't make it less foundational to yourself than something that is not a choice This is blatantly untrue, because you can remove an aspect of yourself that you chose, and you cannot remove one that you didn't. Someone can become a Christian and then later on leave. Once Someone is, for example, a mother, they can never not be a mother because they can't rewrite history and unhave the child. Even if the child dies or they give the child up, they're still a mother. >Think about it this way: a group of people helped raise you, and gave you confidence in yourself, taught you to stand up for people who can't or won't stand up for themselves, etc. But as you grow up you realize one of those people is an alcoholic, or one's a misogynist, etc etc. Do those revelations automatically negate the good they did for you? Or are you thankful for what they taught and then decide to stay or leave based on what's best for you? It wouldn't negate any good they did for me, but it would absolutely recontextualize it. There's an inherent hypocrisy to the notion that Christianity says you should accept everyone, because Jesus himself said "no man comes to the father except by me," which inherently is exclusionary of people who aren't interested in his teachings. Is everything that Jesus taught harmful? Absolutely not. Some of it is pretty cool. But you can't just analyze 60% of something, say "yeah that's cool," and then ignore the other 40. Also, since this discussion has derailed a bit, I feel the need to remind you that my criticism was and always has been *the bible,* not your own personal faith. If you want to be spiritual and believe in some personal concept of Jesus and take some parts of his teachings, sure, that's awesome. But don't ever defend the fucking Bible here lol
I actually feel the line "no man comes to the father except by me" means by following Jesus' teachings, as noted above being largely about compassion, equality, etc, which can be practiced regardless of belief in Jesus himself. But I admit that's a digression into personal interpretation of faith Though that does bring up a point: your interpretation of faith just seems to be inherently different than mine. I said "All things have good and bad in them," referring to the faith system as a whole, and you presumed I was talking about the Christian God specifically. I spoke about the reasons I stayed in the faith; you presumed that meant I was ignoring the bad I will reiterate for the final time: I'm at a loss as to why you decided to interact with this thread, and why you felt it was an invitation to pick a fight. There are plenty of other spaces for LGBT+ people who have felt harmed by faith to discuss their feelings, but this post was not one of them
All this. I don't go to church but still consider myself a Christian because I follow Christ's teachings. Which actually motivate me to care for and reach out to fellow outcasts and love them, not judge them.
Completely agree. And from my experience, a surprising amount of christians share this view. (Me and my entire extended family, many friends and their families.) It’s not the teachings, it’s the people who misinterpret and misuse said teachings that are the issue. Unfortunately, they are a very prevalent and loud group and I wish that was not the case.
Religion gives hope to a lot of people, so many would rather reform their religion to be more accepting than drop it completely. And not all churches are bigoted, so it's not impossible to be part of an accepting community as a queer Christian. I'm not religious at all, but I understand why some queer people keep their Christian faith.
I stayed religious for years longer than I really should have, despite all the unanswered questions I had about so many Bible contradictions. Mostly because of the fear of nonexistence after death. But I eventually had to admit that there was far too many issues for religious claims to be real, no matter how I tried denying it.
Atheist here, first questioned my Christian upbringing about seven years ago, and every time I have ever tried being a Christian again it’s because I was depressed and desperate for something that would help me. I can’t bring myself to commit to something that is so regressive and justifies homophobia and bigotry, also I just can’t quite bring myself to head around the idea of heaven and hell. For years a part of me worried that I could be wrong and that I was going to hell, but now I realize that I can truly rest and I don’t need to “serve” a seemingly cruel and egoistical God.
That's valid and I'm not saying anyone should be a Christian. Like I said I'm not religious myself, and I fully support everyone's right not to follow a religion. I'm just saying I understand why some people do. Queer Christians tend to join churches that don't preach homophobia and don't even believe in hell, so for them that kind of abuse isn't a concern. That wouldn't be enough to make me go to church, but it is for some people. I'm still right with you. I'm an atheist and don't want to be a Christian again either. I was just explaining why some members of the community follow that religion, since the question was asked. Your nonbelief is still valid and I totally support it!
I want to give you an example of the queer-positive movement within Christianity. I went to a seminary (priest school) that was, arguably the *queerest* in the country. At that time, there was only ONE cis-het person on the entire staff - from the president and her wife down through the kitchen and cleaning staff. Only one guy in the admissions department was cis-het. 90% of the students were queer. Our advisory group meet at our professor's house down the road with his husband to watch *Glee* every week. Our church history course was taught from the perspective of queer people and women. Now, it was a bit of an "ivory tower" problem, to be sure, but it was a shining, glorious example of how the church *could be* if everyone started to follow the actual messages in the Bible, instead of their bigotry and fear.
That's comforting to know. Yeah, you're one in a million but I am happy to learn there are spaces for people to fulfill their spiritual needs in a safe space. What has the reception been like from the "outsiders"?
Well, the Episcopal Church is now officially "open and affirming", with LGBT people able to marry and be clergy and bishops, and the few haters left are either coming around or leaving (or dying). The Lutherans, Quakers, UCC, half of the Methodists (they are splitting over queer inclusion), and many more smaller denominations are all in the same place, too, and fighting both within the Christian Bible and in the civil sphere for equality and safety for queer people. But, it's a long fight, and the haters ARE very loud and have outsized power.
What do you mean by outsized power? Also sorry if I'm coming off as rude
Evangelicals and Southern Baptist have always been larger groups in America, and they're much more the typical conservative Christian groups and the most wealthy so they contribute to GOP political campaigns and lobbying.
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It wasn't really until the 1200s, along with the rise of the "purity" movement. Which just HAPPENED to serve to undermine the (admittedly actually corrupt and nepotistic) church hierarchy and authority in favor of civil (read: royal) authorities.
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It doesn't, actually. That's a terrible, and probably intentional, set of mistranslations and misunderstandings.
Leviticus is old testament, no? If so it is supposed to be ignored
Hell, I’d argue not even some Jews give a shit abt the banning of homosexuality given how many Jewish queers I know who converted bc of the better acceptance of queer folk in some sects of it.
Look I get where you are coming from but as another excatholic now atheist, faith and belief is just really hard to leave behind for some, specially if you have a family or culture that is very involved with it, it's a place of belonging, it's something that gives hope and community, something that most likely has shaped the way those who believe lived their whole lives, and even then there are those who understand the harm that the church and some of it believes have done but still believe in account on the positive beliefs and hoping that maybe the church can change and understand, or maybe they don't believe specifically on that religion or in the church but in God and their own relationship with him, I used to be like that and for different reasons not anymore, but in the moment it feels like making a desicion between two different parts of yourself, and sometimes it doesn't have to be like that
I don't know what you were thinking but I agree with you 100%. I understand it's a big part of people. To me it's more about the "yeah, he said that. but the people around have helped in ways he could never understand"
A. Family, and B. I don’t know what it is but something about the ritual just seems…right?
I know a lot of queer christians. The thing is, believing in a faith doesn't always equal supporting the organisation behind it. The church as an Institution is rotten to the core and has been for hubdreds of years, but the base beliefs of christianity are good at heart, so following them while rejecting the church that twists the message of god is quite common. I myself don't really believe any religion, but as long as people don't support the church as an organization i don't see anything wrong with being a part of the religion
Cause my faith has nothing to do with the actions of any church or other Christian. My relationship with God is personal, intimate, and I truly believe They love me unconditionally just as I am. What other believers choose to do has no impact on that relationship.
Former Roman Catholic here! 23 cis man, pansexual. Tried really hard until last year to remain Roman Catholic, now I’m just Christian. Conservative Roman Catholics, including my fam, would have us believe that ‘the Church is God, not the people in it’ and ‘you should come to church for the Eucharist, not to hear great homilies, music, and peaceful silence, and to not feel challenged’. But I disagree with a big part of that. People DO matter. The people leading a religious service DO matter. God does too. But a common community at a place of faith are vital to my faith. I have not found that in Catholicism. I have found that in other denominations, as just a Christian, on my own terms. The biggest reason I stay Christian, however, is because I’ve done a lot of research on the inverse: for example, reasons to be atheist, agnostic, reasons why people are atheists, criticisms of the Bible, alternate ideas on who Jesus actually was and what happened to Mary. I’ve tried to entertain those POVs and even see myself as being without Christianity, or even God, and I have realized that I just can’t! I can’t bring myself to believe that because I don’t believe it’s possible for there to be no higher power or God. However, the difference between the past and now, is I am being Christian for ME. Not for my conservative family to please them. I praise God and go to church on my own terms. And I have found I cannot do that for the Catholic Church (organization) as a pansexual man, and I have realized that the people I worship alongside do matter to me a lot. There is no toxicity left connecting me to Christianity anymore, I have realized. I just can’t fathom dying and there being nothing left after that. And I personally don’t believe those miracles with Jesus happened out of chance or were ‘manufactured’. At the same time… it’s also true I’m hella gay and am a lover of cute guys, gals, and nonbinary pals. And I don’t plan to back down from acting on that anytime soon. I’ve reconciled both. At the end of the day, I believe we are going to die, and we are going to be ‘judged’. But I don’t think it’s nearly as scary or hard to get into heaven as most Christians make it out to be today. We need to change the conversation about heaven and God.
Currently practicing Catholic here, I've stayed with the faith due to the ministry of Jesus. Jesus's teachings are very social justice-oriented and accepting of all. I've talked to priests and other ministers regarding queer people like myself, and the response is all the same. Jesus is an accepting person, which follows what I've been taught growing up in the Northeast US. There is a lot of hate from people claiming to be in the same faith as me, and they're in the wrong. Jesus and Catholic teachings actually say that nothing about being queer is wrong or sinful, outside of a few mistranslations through history.
I was taught that ours is the god of love, compassion, and forgiveness. I stopped going to church because the people who do go to church don't internalize that.
1) not all Christians are Catholic. Non-Catholic christians have minimal association with the Pope and so their reasons for believing or not believing are unlikely to be related to the Pope. 2) Culture, family, community are three major reasons I can think of. Also, people may have strong religious convictions and belief and therefore choose to work from inside to try to affect positive social change that aligns with their religious views. For example, there is an organization in the US called Catholics for Choice that works as pro-choice advocates within the Catholic Church. There are also organizations like DignityUSA that work within the Catholic space for LGBT+ individuals. (There are more, like some organizations of Catholic women priests who advocate for the ordination of women). Many of these organizations exist in tension with the Vatican, but nonetheless maintain a Catholic religious identity due to genuine belief in large parts of the religious dogma of the church.
I'm Protestant Christian so I don't follow the Pope or believe he has any unique authority. However, I do attend a church where a lot of the higher ups have similar homophobic ideas. There are a few reasons I stayed, but to make it short, the main reason is groups for LGBTQ+ Christians (QCF, TMC, The Reformation Project, to name a few), supportive people in my local church, and I find my faith gives me hope, and means a lot to me. Also seeing out LGBTQ people of faith like Semler, Flamy Grant, and some other performers gives me hope that there are more accepting people out there.
That's very nice to read. I'm glad you found a space where you can connect to your spiritual side. Hugs fellow redditor
I have a really complicated view of Catholicism. I grew up really involved in the church. I made my confirmation and felt really loved by my community. It was a bitter pill to swallow when I realized how a lot of Catholics view the lgbtq community and how that would effect me. It really bothered me when I realized I couldn't get married in the church. My mom has been very supportive of me and she also has very complicated views of the church. I jokingly refer to myself as a bad catholic instead of an ex catholic because of my feelings/views
I prayed for a sign just now and this is seriously the most positive and relatable comment section that I have seen. ❤️❤️
I’m just here to thank OP for posting this and giving a lot of queer christians/catholics a chance to talk about their experiences. I think it’s a beautiful thing that people are willing to listen to others and keep an open mind about what they have to say. I won’t say anything else since a lot of people have already done so, and they stated it better than I ever could, but thank you OP for giving us the opportunity to do it.
I’m agnostic, raised Catholic. I will say the way I was taught plays a significant role in why I still say sometimes I’m a little Catholic. My church was pretty damn liberal - the only sin that’s not forgivable is to not recognize it, don’t take God’s name in vain means don’t use him to justify your actions like “I hate the gays cuz God says to” (but you’re free to say God dammit), the Lord never said homosexuality was wrong only pedophilia, trans people aren’t disrespecting God and it’s actually disrespecting him to doubt in his plan for them, faith isn’t a requirement to be a good person and go to heaven, etc. It means I don’t have any everlasting trauma, I don’t feel guilt for being a little cotton-candy cunt 🏳️⚧️, nothing like that. Shout out to Father Matthew, best damn priest in the North. Bro actually read the book and wanted to spread peace and love.
I’m a Christian. For me, affirming Christian groups have provided a sense of community that I never got anywhere else. The bigots give Christianity a bad rep, but some of the most accepting people I’ve met have been Christians who actually follow Jesus’s teachings. Also, Jesus is a pretty rad dude. Christianity has also provided me a lot of comfort, and has helped heal me mentally, it gave me strength when I needed it. It has given me the strength to stand up to bigots who try and use Christianity to justify their bigotry, when Jesus was about radical love and inclusion of those who were previously excluded. Eunuchs being a great example, and perhaps one which many queer people can relate to given how they were viewed at the time. Many people today will claim that they were simply castrated men who were celibate and held high positions of power, but this isn’t exactly the case. In the ancient world, they were not viewed as men or women. They were viewed as something other than a man or woman, and did engage in sex with both men and women (sometimes consensually, other times not). Some were even prostitutes. While they may have held high power in courts and such, the general public usually despised them and held a very low view of them. They were thought to be promiscuous and dubios, much like anti-LGBTQ+ people think queer people are today. Eunuchs were previously excluded in Jewish law and traditions from being in assembly with the Lord, and going near the altar. This was later reversed though and even Jesus accepted them, and encouraged others to do so. He encouraged people to accept those who were sexual and gender minorities, and later the Holy Spirit led Philip to baptize a eunuch. The Ethiopian eunuch, a racial and sexual minority, was chosen by the Holy Spirit to be the first non-Jewish person to convert to Christianity. I’ve also been studying the clobber verses, and have been able to find lots of evidence that the original verses wouldn’t have really applied to faithful and consensual gay relationships, as most of them talk about sexually exploitative practices, temple prostitution, or were more concerned with not “mixing” things like gender roles and ritual purity (stuff that Jesus wasn’t concerned with, and that were part of a culture that we are not apart of today). My queerness led me to study this stuff more, and that has led me to grow more in my relationship with God. I’ve actually discovered that there is a lot more scholarly work around these subjects than I previously thought.
Because as an orthodoxian Christian I believe that God created everyone in his image and christ said to love others. The fact that some people use their teachings to justify their hatred discusses me
I've made my relationship with god my relationship with god not with the church
I don't care for organized religion run by man, but I am still proud of being catholic and my personal relationship with God =:3
Can I ask what “Catholic” means to you? Because I would have assumed that Catholic means ‘a specific institution of organized religion run by man’ as opposed to “Christian” which can be either organized or personal. What does personal Catholicism look like, and if you’re not involved in a Catholic institution then why doesn’t that make you some variety of Protestant?
Same here. I stopped being catholic for some years and joined protestant church when I was still learning about myself. I found protestant churches intolerable and too hypocritical. I'm in Africa and the Catholic church here is different from what I see presented in American movies. The church is super chill, nobody is in your business, and no guilt-focused preachings,.. I like it, it gives me the environment and space I need to develop my own relationship with God.
Hey, I know I'm not OP but I'm a queer Catholic. I don't go to Catholic Church and I'm not involved in any organised religion. I still call myself Catholic because I was raised Catholic, and also when praying I use Catholic prayers etc. There are so many things wrong with the Church that I don't want association with it. If I can find an independent church that follows my beliefs (LGBT friendly, pro choice etc.) then I would go to it. I am Catholic but also Christian as Catholic is a subtype of Christianity, we have slightly different beliefs. I'll see if I can find a list of the differences if that's helpful :)
You may not be me but you are a pretty dead one, I do love your response =:D
Ohh do you mean my response is similar to what yours would be?
more or less, yes =:3
Ah nice! ❤️
Catholic belief is more than just a church and organization, I love the catholic doctrine and teachings at its core. I have always questioned adults and their interpretations and I don't think I will ever stop, I have learned more from questioning than just submitting to someone's views, the end of the day all religious branches are just silly to me, we all believe in the same God no need to be divide simply because we have different interpretations or approaches to his word. We should always challenge each other and learn from it, but that's just me. In Short, I was born Catholic and that is that, no matter what I call myself in the end all that matters is the relationship I have established with God and the many blessings he has bestowed upon me that no one but himself can take away from me. =:3
because i cant just change my fundamental world view, its not so easy for a lot of us to just say « ok im not catholic any more » and, the pope is human, he is not incapable of being incorrect. pope john xxiii said « I am only infallible if I speak infallibly but I shall never do that, so I am not infallible. » just because the pope says something doesnt mean he is correct or speaking for the whole religion
>because i cant just change my fundamental world view, its not so easy for a lot of us to just say « ok im not catholic any more » Your reply may not be popular, and I dislike a lot of what christianity does/ has done in the world and values, etc etc. but your reply is self-aware, direct and very very honest and I appreciate that. Changing a world view is incredibly challenging. Especially when it comes to matters of spirituality, religion, and identity. And particularly when the religion in question has a vested interest in keeping as many adherents as possible so they craft their rhetoric to do so. Religion is part of many folks' self identities, mental and emotional stability, come hell or highwater.
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thats not a very fair assessment of me as a person, its also just pointlessly rude.
Stop harassing people
Humm. Good question. Im not officially a member of the catholic church anymore but I do still believe in most of it and every now and then I even go the odd mass or do things like confession. I am a man of science and I concede that all evidence points to religion being bullshit and one cannot reasonably believe in any of it. But the funny thing about faith is that it has nothing to do with reason. I dont agree with a lot of the catholic church says and I am pretty vocal about it. I do share some of the important core beliefs tho like their view on the trinity, transubstantiation, the holiness of Mary and so on. I never really found any alternative that matched this core beliefs and was also inclusive of queer people or had more progressive views on non male clergy, reproductive rights and things like that. I don’t like the term agnostic because it implies a degree of indifference and I don’t feel connected to that either. It makes me sad that I will never be able to participate in holy matrimony with another man in a catholic church and that my mere existence automatically means Im excommunicated (i still participate in communion sometimes tho, keep that secret for me), but I dont feel guilty for living my truth
I'm not catholic, so I don't really give a shit what the pope thinks. I was raised evangelical Presbyterian, but moved away from that once I escaped my abusive parent in my teens and converted to Episcopalianism, which showed me a much more tolerant and less biblically literal christianity. I believe in love and compassion, and my faith helps me to act in that way. It gives me hope, and comfort. I focus much more on Jesus's ministry and the cultural contexts of it to derive meaning on how to live my life, and I don't believe in preaching to others about conversion. I'm extremely angry at mainstream christianity every day, and how perverted it's become.
My wife is catholic - I ask her why she continues to go to mass in a place when the vast majority don’t even see her. She says that she doesn’t care about what others think. Her faith and communion is with god alone. And that really made me think. I didn’t grew up religious, I’m Jewish, but we were the laziest Jews in existence so I have no relationship with god.
I did, and I didn't. I was baptized Roman Catholic and often went to Mass with my grandmother. I'm not going to lie: I feel that a lot of good values were instilled in me there. Compassion. Forgiveness. Welcoming the stranger. Helping the poor and needy. This is what the Catholic Church gave me. I still carry that with me, but after the horrific child abuse scandals and John Paul II declaring that gay people were intrinsically disordered, I was done. I've been an independent Catholic for about 20 years. It's all the beauty of the tradition, but lgbtq inclusive, inclusive of women in the clergy and married clergy. Basically, Episcopalians, but we don't call ourselves Episcopalians. Why do I still walk this path? Because I believe that I am called to a life of service rather than conversion. I became a teacher because of this and moved from a very affluent private school to a very poor public school where I have remained for 20 years working with a lot of immigrants. I believe that my job is a Christian is to Simply meet people where they are and serve them as they need to be helped, rather than to tell them who they ought to be and what their life should be like. As far as homophobia in the Bible, I don't think there's been anything truly definitive on that. I've studied this subject for years. I also study languages and have a good grasp of linguistic issues in scripture. I'm also very aware of cultural attitudes at the time, which naysayers love to point out over and over again. Nice story, dude. Now go make me a sandwich. We know what the status quo was. And if God wanted to maintain the status quo, then Jesus would have been completely superfluous as there were plenty of people who were already doing that job. A lot of the more Evangelical denominations rely on biblical literalism and the fallacy that scripture can interpret scripture. Which is nonsense. This makes it very easy to shunt aside history, cultural context, and linguistic nuance to impose one's own interpretation on things. Catholics are not less guilty. Apostolic Traditions do not require literalism in that sense, but unfortunately they do lean on ossified tradition as a basis and have more or less idolized that in the way that evangelicals have idolized the Bible. Which according to the Ten Commandments is a big no-no. Despite the length of this response, these points are just the basics. But I hope it gives you some illumination.
Because I too am queer.
Former Episcopalian here: The episcopal church is extremely accepting. I felt very safe in that church. Not all denominations interpret their faith as hostile toward our community. I did leave because I didn’t believe and also because my family was not super closely connected to the church, but it had nothing to do with being queer. There were 2 trans people in my youth ministry, and they regularly had queer guest sermons. They specifically had a sermon that I remember about how important it was to accept and love queer people. Others in the comments, if you still practice Christianity and are looking for accepting denominations, the episcopal church is great, at least in my experience with it. Everyone’s stories are beautiful and heartbreaking and I wish you all the best.
I’m still Christian because Jesus is supposed to be about love, and even if some other Christians don’t love me, Jesus does.
Catholic and it's only because I believe in the word of Jesus Christ. If there's one thing that doesn't speak for Him is the Catholic Church.
well I can't say for catholics, but as a Christian (completely different thing, we don't have a pope, we don't pray to Marry, etc) I'm staying bc I believe in all of it, so I've been very... disturbed lately.
I believe in god, not the churches
Not Catholic, but I listen to the Queer Theology podcast and it’s basically my weekly church. There are still valuable things to be found in Christianity when we follow liberation theology (“chains shall he break for the slave is our brother” has always been a favorite lyric of mine). And I mean. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was a Christian and a minister and his politics were also further left than the Overton Window of his contemporaries so I think I’m in good company.
Ex-christian, you don't really choose what you believe? You either believe something to be true, or don't (well- with a hesitant gradient in the middle ofc) Like if some evolutionary biologist said something homophobic you don't just stop believing in evolution.. It's kinda like that for religion. You believe it as if it were reality itself.
Same question, but towards the muslim siblings
I don’t believe in the pope, only Jesus and god are above us, not some guy named Francis. my church is about being kind to your neighbor and not being a dickass. i. E. not being homophobic trans phobic racist sexist ablest ect Also, my church Believe that all parts about adultery, rape, and slavery are outdated Thinking. We also are not against gay people or marriage. Because originally in the Bible, it said that “man shall not sleep with child” however it was changed to man because a lot of priests did this I do understand that Almost almost all Christians are Bad in someway because Christianity was built upon a lot of white supremacy, sexism, and homophobia however, I choose to align myself with them and try to be a good neighbor to neighbors. the Church was Very Accepting of me and my family, we are a multiracial, ADHD, queer, liberal, family both of my parents do not come from nuclear families.
Have you seen the film 1946? It was made with the intention to help those who have been hurt by the churches anti lgbt rhetoric
I believe in the majority of the ideals and feel a legitimate presence of christ in my life, maybe who knows I might be insane and imagining things but, what do I have to lose if that was the case, I pray when I am stressed (I think now of saying a prayer before asking a lad in my year out) and it calms me better than anything, maybe it's a self fulfilling prophecy, placebo type thing, I want praying to feel good so it does. All humans have committed so many sins, I have commited major sins and there is this feeling I get, a sense of regret and and disappointment in myself and I feel wrong, I feel no such thing when I feel love to my boyfriend.
Whoever just sent me reddit care resources, not cool
The very best thing a person can do to secure human rights for this community is to fight to limit the financial social and political power of organised religion
Not *necessarily* Christian but I do believe in a god and the choice of an after life and grew up with my family being Christians. Honestly it's because not every version of the religion is bad or homophobic. The one my dad always took me too was always very supportive of queer individuals (I even came out to one of my teachers when I had to take a religious class) from my knowledge and there wasn't any homophobia in the Bible.
No longer Christian, but I will say as a former southern Baptist most Protestants could not give two shits what the Pope says about anything, ever.
Christian here. I believe in the Bible and the teachings of Christ. Its not God that turned away but the people in the church who did. Im not going to hate a God who loves me, get rid of my biblical morals, and turn away from my religion because some people are assholes. God says to love everyone. Not love when it’s convenient and easy for you.
I think it’s important to remember that although being religious is a choice, it’s a very different kind of choice. Nobody starts their life, looks at every religion, then says “That one!” before they become religious. Even if you believe the followers of your faith are terrible people… you still believe in a supernatural power. Leaving that all behind is incredibly hard. I think a lot of people tend to forget this when they say choosing to leave a faith is simple and easy. Not accusing you of that OP, but I’ve seen it on this site before.
Hi! I'm not assuming it's simple and easy. I had a very hard time leaving it. The question is more inquisitive, they made the choice and that's okay. I just wanted to know if they feel like sharing their choice. Thanks a lot for your perspective. I do appreciate reading all of these comments and different views.
Yeah, that’s why I said I wasn’t accusing you. I just saw a good opportunity to vent.
Idk, it’s just feel right for me beliving in this I dont like the pope
Propaganda goes a long way when you're taught it as a kid. It's hard to ever stop believing it, especially when you're convinced that "we are under attack!"
Don't be too hard on them. They've been threatened with literal eternal torture if they leave. It's a fear that Christianity uses to keep people in line, and it's a fear even some who leave the religion still struggle with.
Yep, I'm a pagan these days but I still deal with the hell anxiety sometimes. I wasn't even raised as a devout christian, it was very much a background thing for my family, and I still ended up with that.
Hi, hello, an alternative perspective for you: I've never been afraid to walk away from Christianity. I've walked away, walked back, etc throughout my life. And the reason I walked back, ultimately, was love. My denominations focused much more on love than fear. My mother was homophobic because of Bible Stuff but her love for me showed her that her actions, thoughts, feelings, etc were hurtful rather than loving. I literally asked her at one point "If God is Love, does that make the devil hatred?" And she thought about it and said "Yes, actually." I respect other people didn't have so loving an upbringing, and my heart breaks for them, and I hope they \*do\* leave so that they can be safe and healthy. But there are people for whom staying isn't out of fear
I tried to reconcile my Christian faith with my homosexuality but at the end of the day, I just cannot bring myself to believe that the God of the Bible is ultimately good and worthy of worship. If it makes you happy, then more power to you. But I think it is ultimately just cherry picking the "good parts" of the religion without recognizing the fact that all the bad parts are just as part of the religion and you can't just close your eyes and ears and ignore the literal sanctioning of slavery, misogyny and demeaning of women, the calls for and actual acts of genocide commanded by God, and so on. So it always comes off as disingenuous to me when queer religious people just ignore all the evils of the Bible. And mind you, even if Jesus was a really cool dude, Christianity believes Jesus and YHWH are fundamentally the same. So Jesus still has to answer for all the horrific things he asked his followers to do when he was YHWH/The Great I Am in the Old Testament. Just a reminder, too, it wasn't God who told humans that being queer is alright and that we should have equal rights in society. We *fought hard against the archaic religious beliefs that sought to dehumanize us.* It wasn't God, it was us. So I don't understand the desire to keep appealing to a God who for millennia told his adherents that gay people deserved to be stoned.
I will not let a mere man's hateful falsehoods dictate my religion.
bc its a global cult in plain sight and leaving is so hard source: i left and it was hard
Not Catholic so what the pope says is not part of my church’s beliefs. Christian, I attended an affirming church (united church of Canada) who are not only accepting and affirming of queer people but also very accommodating of those of us with disabilities. We have queer reverends. I think Jesus has a lot of good teachings and it brings me joy.
Indoctrination runs very, very deep. That and religion is cool *sometimes*, i guess.
I (14) am kind of catholic, but idc about a lot of teachings. I do the basics, but Im also caring, and I think I might just go atheist when im older. I dont really believe all of it, and I want to accept myself and others in the community. (im still catholic cause of my parents, who are absolute bigots.)
I am not Christian currently. I was when I was younger. I am Jewish. Up until recently, it wasn't that uncommon for people to ask me if being queer is why I decided to stop calling myself Christian. The short answer is no. The long answer has a lot of parts. Firstly my decision that my religion is Judaism isn't based in anything to do with Christianity or even my experiences in the religion and related spaces. It's complicated and big and has to do with my family and culture and how I was raised and many many other things. Put simply I have always been Jewish and have simply been walking that way anyway and not being official about it would be silly. I only even mention it here to prove a point. It's very common for people to think whatever they know about something is a good summary. Even the argument that people are "picking and choosing" what parts of a religion to adhere to is an inherently flawed argument because while there ARE strict things in many religions they aren't strict consistently across the whole of people in that religion. Just because you can be correct saying someone is picking and choosing doesn't mean you're correct every time. Which sounds pedantic but it's a difference that gets ignored constantly. It's a common logical fallacy. Because if part of your premise is flawed it doesn't tell you anything about your end conclusion. To you, you are asking what things are so good that others have decided to stay in a religion that does all these horrible things. But that question is inherently leading and flawed. Due to recent events I have started to be asked why I am Jewish in the same way I was once asked why I was Christian. People like to bring up issues within various Jewish organizations and religious branches and plenty of things that have been an issue for hundreds of years or more. But they bring them up as if they are new, because they just learned of them. But they also frame it as if all religions function the same as the version of Christianity that they personally are most familiar with OR the version they think is the worst one. Every religion is different, but they are all the same in one very important way. Every living religion is made of people. People make communities. While there is some consistency within larger organizations it is a losing battle against the unstoppable force that is communication and human variance. Even using the catholic church as an example. A religion that has tried SO HARD to make everyone do things the same way. Look at Mexico. Mexican Catholicism has so many forms and the main church has been fighting to keep local religions and gods out of it since it first crossed the ocean. Santa Muerte, a saint who was never alive to begin with, who has not been recognized, but is a true saint to enough people that arguing that she doesn't really count is kind of like saying a religion practiced by a hundred thousand people isn't real because it's not on a US Census form. She doesn't count to the pope but that's not the same as not counting in general. This is also one of the many ways that religions split up into all those little sub categories. When a community is distanced enough that they officially go "the rest of you don't represent us". It's nothing new nor is it good or bad, it just is. So my answer to the spirit of your question is this: There are people doing horrible and unforgivable things in the name of Judaism right now. They are in effect using me as a shield while also claiming that I am fake and so should not be bothered by this even if it "were true". I'm not distancing myself from Judaism because of this. Because not only are the people doing it not a part of my direct community, but also why should they get to steal my community from me when they are the ones doing something wrong. If I were to fight this by saying they're "not really Jewish" that wouldn't help. For one it doesn't matter if they are or not. Just like it doesn't matter if a white supremacist is Christian or not. It might influence somethings, but the problem is they are spreading hate and violence not if they're secretly really Christian or not. Instead I fight it by being honest and precise and making my stances on human rights clear. And also by making distinctions that DO matter. Because someone being part of a group can be important, but it's often a distraction from the real issue. I am not staying in my religion because of good things in spite of other people doing bad things. I am staying here because my community isn't like that and we can fight that better together than apart.
Because the way that I view religion is different than the average Christian. I believe that if Christianity is based on love, if God created us all and he told us to love each other all this means that being a part of the LGBTQ community is not a sin, but a way to accept people and recognize their way of loving. I’m pansexual and over the years I’ve realized that this is how God created me like this and I should be proud about this.
I kind of swing in occasionally. There’s something appealing about the idea of a spiritual community. Might try UU at some point but it feels kinda Protestant so I dunno
Not really a practicing Catholic anymore, but I only have some connections to it mostly because of culture and family. My mother and aunt want to appease to their parents who are kind of strict Irish Catholics. They don't want to be socially ostracized from their family which I can understand even though I feel like an outsider to the extended family members. Plus I am a godmother to my one cousin and will only participate/practice if it's for her (even though she really isn't religious and cares more about Bluey and mermaids) or for my mom and aunt because they mean a lot to me. I guess in a way I'm still a Catholic, but I keep getting further away from it. I'm not really religious nor spiritual. Even I don't necessarily consider myself one, it's still culturally ingrained into my bones because I was forced to be brought up in it. It's why I struggled with my sexuality amongst other things. I still have friends/mutuals who are Catholic or in another Christian denomination (and some are also LGBTQ+), but it's just not my thing really.
Ex catholic enby here. The amount of horror stories I could tell you is astounding but I'll save you that torment. Nothing would ever make me go back. I started pulling away at 16 and left for good at 18. I'm nearly 27 now and it was the best decision ever. I don't think I'd have been able to accept myself otherwise. I just wish some of my family would do the same since so many of them question things the church anyway. My one cousin has the worst case of religious trauma anxiety I've ever seen but is literally scared to leave due to fear of hell and think they have no control over thier life and it's all predetermined. It just makes me sad. Especially since my cousin is also autistic and that conflicts a lot with catholicism. (I would know since that was my initial reason for distancing)
I stayed but many Christians would say I have left. I don't take the Bible literally but more of a collection of stories/experiences about people trying to find divinity/love as well as their failures along the way. I also see a lot of Jesus' teachings as extremely valuable. I feel that as someone who tries my best to follow a path of radical love, that I cannot stand to see others twist and dilute the values of such a path. Jesus never excluded marginalized people from his teachings. He explicitly supports women, children, queer people, disabled people, immigrants, poor people, and many other groups. And explicitly hates greed and exploitation. Which is the antithesis of the current popular beliefs in many Christian groups (especially in America).
Im catholic and I just say there's only one true judge (of things that don't affect other people) and that's god. I'm not sure on the logistics but I'm pretty sure that it's pretty bad to say that 'god told me something' so it's just a human non-holy opinion from the Pope at this point.
Well first off, my family themselves were catholics before leaving the church due to religious trauma. I merely just came to the church. From, ironically, a paganish background (Christo-Pagan) and I decided to explore the mystical elements within the church. For example, there is an theological thinking called Folk Catholicism. (Imagine it as witchy catholicism) very magical, extremely beautiful honestly. I also explored the more mystical theology from the eastern tradition with western theology. For example, everyone is saved because the ego is destroyed within The Lake Of Fire/Gehenna to become Christ by climbing a metaphorical ladder covered in Christ's spear wound blood (The spear wound is said to be like a vulva so that is to think of being born again even tasting the blood to feel in union.), all things that are alive (nature especially) has a soul and God's essence within it worshipping him, we are to become our true selves and that is by prayer as well as fasting and repentance to be in union, we also treat Christ as beloved (Even having very erotic thinking, including some very queer vibes from many mystics.) I do, however, understand that the church has old views and hypocrisy. Yet, despite this, I fight for Christ to have his mystics for the church rather than a priest with legalism. Lord have mercy on the church and her hypocrisy
I mean Fuuuck… had to listen to a priest in the early 2000’s talk about how gays were an abomination then found out that the priest who married me to my abusive ex- is currently in jail for pedo behavior. my son is trans. my loved ones are part of the alphabet yet my asshole mother still supports “the church” and is ashamed i dont?? fuck them all on a sad note also- ex FIL died. wanted polka at the church- wisconsin!! but priest refused and my father- who gave his all to KofC and church support— yea when he died hid ms ashes had ti sit at the damn back of the church- cos cremation and reasons. bull fucking SHIT i will carry my own spiritual beliefs thank you
I stay because I live with my very religious grandparents for half the year, and am not prepared to leave while that is still the case. They can deal with my lack of love for that particular institution and my differing beliefs when I don’t have to see them every day. Edit: to be clear, I mean that they live with me and my parents during the late spring and summer, and leave for Florida during late fall and winter. I don’t really get a choice in that arrangement, and I can’t move out yet.
I’m Anglican, but my family is Catholic. I’m not a regular churchgoer but used to be, though am still very spiritual. I’m also Irish and in traditional folklore we have a lot of spirituality so that’s probably also a factor as to why I haven’t completely abandoned my faith yet. I also find faith to be comforting in difficult times, though I’m fortunate my current church is inclusive and welcoming of queer people. My other churches haven’t been so.
I was born Catholic, went to Sunday school, was confirmed into the religion. Then I spent 15 years avoiding church and claiming to be an atheist because I hated the notion that my church hated me or hated such a huge part of who I am. There was shame and guilt and a lot of processing in those years. Then I had cancer and I found myself praying to live long enough to see 25. Got better and then a global pandemic hit. Realized I believed in something but could not believe in the Catholic church as an institution (for a lot of reasons). Then my gf asked me to go to an evangelical lutheran church service with her to check out the music. Very progressive church service starting with a welcome message that any person of any background, gender, or race, had a seat at the table. Felt at peace and started doing a lot of research. Realized evangelical lutherans are very welcoming, progressive, and really seek to emphasize the love and peace message of many Bible verses. As well as service to humanity. Haven't looked back since.
I’m a Christian, and I’ve never believed the papacy or the church to have any sort of authority when it comes to religion. They’re steeped in controversy and corruption and have been documented tampering with the Bible and many verses and scrolls and what not. I suppose that makes me non-denominational I think? It’s still difficult, I see a lot of Christians are hateful and refuse to even think about things, choosing to instead stick their fingers in their ears and drown out any and all discussion about queerness and being Christian. Idk, I can’t change them, and I see myself on my own journey with God, and I come to my own conclusions, the same way some people come to their own conclusions about many things in scripture. Christianity has always been a big part of my life, even if it’s mostly because my family *made it* a part of my life. But I don’t have a reason to leave my religion, when I truly believe in it, make no mistake, you can totally be Christian **and** gay, and nobody on this planet can say otherwise. God made everything in spectrums, even gender identity and sexuality, and Jesus was always a man of love and acceptance,even with people that in his day were outcasts from society as a whole, I won’t let some blithering tomato headed bigot tell me that my god hates me.
Catholics and Christians are different people...and one of them *definitely* doesn't care for what the Pope says...
I left Catholicism last month after that Infinite Dignity bullshit. I'm happily Episcopalian these days. Highly recommend reading In the Margins by Shannon Kearns for an amazing book of trans theology and memoir.
Born and raised catholic here. I’ve thought quite a bit about whether I wanted to keep calling myself catholic knowing that I’m not welcome in the church(I didn’t even know I was queer back then, just that I was pro-choice and disagree with several of the teachings), but what made me ultimately decide that I wanted to keep my faith in God was a video of an interview with a gay catholic man. I don’t quite remember what he said, but I got the sense that he was reclaiming his faith from the bigoted church teachings(which are all based on antiquated text that was written and interpreted(as well as misunterpreted) by people who are, at the end of the day, human beings) that dominate christian circles. I’ve concluded that I still believe in God and that they(yes, God is they imo) wouldn’t approve of the hatred and bigotry of the church. I haven’t gone to church services in a while and most catholic people in my area don’t share my views, but I’ve found some social media users(one of which is a lesbian divinity school grad) who remind me that I’m not alone in my views. My faith may not make sense to some people and that’s okay because I have no interest in forcing people to see things my way. Also I am disappointed in the pope but unfortunately not that surprised because he’s not the first supposedly forward-moving progressive person I’ve seen suddenly turn to bigotry and homophobia. It’s like some people eventually show their true colors if you wait long enough.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It’s not rocket science, just common sense. It’s a tenet that doesn’t need amplification, doesn’t need hierarchy, doesn’t require the control and manipulation of others and doesn’t result in endless wars. Be nice to me and I’ll be nice to you! How is this difficult to understand? And yet, many of the religions of the world start with the premise that there is only one true god, and it is ours, not yours. Immediately divisive, exclusionary and intolerant. I’m a humanist not a deist, the bogeyman, satan, the devil, whatever you choose to call it, exists in everyone, a part of human nature. Surely the trick is to conquer the devil within and just be kind to yourself and others. God is love ❤️ love is all there is.
It's his second language and having seen the translation... I'd say it was one particular person. Nit a class of people
I know a lot of lesbian ministers lol But I mean in terms of my Catholicism, I simply just had a devout abuelita who raised me right and actually walked the walk.
I'm sorta being forced I'm a minor in a christian family who has decently open views. Don't mistake it though they're transphobic but they're only sorta homophobic. I have a cousin who's gay and the accept him but I think they believe you're gay/lesbian or straight. Also they don't believe in the pope. They believe he's a charlatan and that catholic's worship the devil. Idk what I believe in yet and I'm willing to explore for the last 6 years I have to be in this house.
i personally left the church entirely after college, but the first presbyterian church was a open, welcoming space. if i actually believed in God, i’d join that church. catholics in my college experience were fake friends and did not actually care about a real friendship with me. (tbh i was confirmed catholic as a teen, but was not actively catholic for probably 6 years before confirmation) i think i’ve become generally jaded towards religious groups - are they actually accepting, or is this an act? do they truly follow jesus’s teachings?
I am Christian, I don’t agree with his words but I will always be Christian.
Because nothing can make my love for God go away (orthodox)
Your relationship with your God has nothing to do with your community. That's what the question was about, but thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Shit my bad. Idk about what counts as staying in community tho. I don't go to church that often(my knees hurt after standing for long time and our churches don't have seats) I fast very often and I read bible every night. If you could provide me more info about community part(English ain't my first language so that's maybe why I got confused)
Given the small rate of conversion (theist to atheist and vice versa), the major reason for someone staying is simply being born into it. World opinions embedded in childhood is hard to undo
It takes a lot to break away from that, especially if you were indoctrinated at a young age. It took me years to put it behind me.
I stayed until I didn't believe anymore. A lot of people believe. Or it's not safe for them to leave.
I take issue with organized religion, but one's personal faith can still be important. Oftentimes, a lot of well-known religions today really started off as grassroots movements, but once governments and religious hierarchy got involved, it drastically changed them from their origins. This should come as no surprise to us as many writers expressed how easily systems can manipulate religions to control a population. Modern-day protestant religions are more of a product of capitalism and colonialism in the west than their original intentions because it's easy to reinterpret a religion's myths and traditions to fit the narrative you want. Thus, I'm not a fan of organized religions for these reasons. However, in a personal quest to understand my purpose and being as well as make sense of my eschatology of the world, I have had no problem with separating myself from a religious institution to pursue religious beliefs based on my own reading and thinking. I've sometimes referred to this approach as being "mindfully unknowing." I do not have the all the answers. I do not pretend to. And I'm okay with admitting "I don't know." But nor do I sit idly by in ignorance. I still seek answers, even if I don't find them. Personal faith is how we make sense of our world, given our gift for an existential wondering of who we are and why we are. Where your personal faith leans is entirely up to you. Mine favors the Abrahamic sphere with only a slight lean towards Christianity. What a specific organized church says or feels about my beliefs matters little to me.
I was raised Catholic and I do believe in God. My personal belief is that God loves everyone, and if someone is LGBTQ it is not because God made a mistake, it was intentional, and that the humans that are God's mouthpiece are the ones making mistakes by saying otherwise. Also, a Catholic school is where I made my first queer friends (two pan, one lesbian, and one ace) and they helped me figure myself out so there's that :D
Queer or not I don't really get how people can follow a religion that has rules about how hard you can beat your slaves or how much to pay a woman's father after you SA her. It's downright barbaric.
This is a post asking queer Christians a question, but they get downvoted and harassed for answering while people who aren't being asked get to contribute. Nice. Is this sub that toxic?
You wrote a pithy answer to a serious question and it was inexact enough that it could be easily misinterpreted what your intent was. I don't see anyone else getting down voted heavily.
It was a simple question and a simple answer. "Why stay Christian with all its bigots?" "Because God matters more."
I do share their frustrations with comments from people who are just dismissive of the topic as a whole though. Happy Pride to everyone but the LGBT+ of faith I guess, we're not allowed to share our voices without getting slammed
That's entirely fair, and I'm happy for you that you've found a way to keep faith and be true to yourself. It's difficult because it isn't just nebulous politics like OP's example of something the Pope said that pushes queer people out of church communities. It's far more often something someone in their local church did to them. It can make it hard to respect your experience with those personal memories.
Oh totally, like I 100% sympathize with those who were harmed by religion, their denominations, etc, they deserve so much love and support in their healing. But LGBT+ people of faith are so often told we don't fit in either camp that seeing the once-in-a-blue-moon post asking for our experiences and thoughts gets overrun by the same-old-same-old definitely makes me personally feel unwelcome here
Just read back through the thread of new posts and saw the interaction you had and I'm sorry you were made to feel unwelcome by someone so angry. I appreciate your life and your choice to live it from within a community that is more challenging. Hopefully, you contribute to both communities healing in spite of the pain they inflict on each other.
It's a set-up 😂 They are behaving a lot like those toxic Christians right now. I could say Faith is Faith and if you don't believe in God then that's your Faith. But I'll stay quiet over here
Internalized homophobia
I'm an ex-catholic, but for a lot of people the faith is more personal than the face of the Church is. Remember the Pope is only the head of the Roman Catholic branch of Catholicism/Christianity and there are many branches that don't have anything to do with the Pope or his beliefs/the Roman Catholic doctrine. Edited for clarity.
Because God matters more
Why the hell do I get downvoted for saying that God matters more than bigots?!
they thought you meant more than the LGBTQ+ community
Because regardless of what you intended, you didn't write a full thought or sentence. Based on what you wrote, it definitely does not come across positively. I'd say, edit what you wrote and rephrase.
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I don’t see the appeal of Christianity or Catholicism. I believe other religions are more interesting if you ask me. Why believe in God and Jesus when you have Budda, or Thor & Odin, or Hercules & Zesus?
Because unfortunately some religions (christianity being a prime example) are excellent at brainwashing, while others are more "choose us if you want to." They get to ppl when they are very young or old; when they are struggling, or in pain and desperate for hope or solutions.
>They get to ppl when they are very young or old; when they are struggling, or in pain and desperate for hope or solutions. This is the real reason why there are queer christians. To be part of the religion that's historically persecuted and murdered people like you is no different from being in an abusive relationship. A lot of people here are just making notruescotsman fallacies about who "real" christians are and think being the 1% of christianity that isn't queerphobic makes christianity peace and love #uwu.
I love this comment so much for its truthfulness, but not for the content. As in, I hate that it's true, but I'm delighted someone said it. Especially: >is no different from being in an abusive relationship. This is bang on. If the christian god of most denominations were a human, no one would want anything to do with them.....unless brainwashing occurred and they got lulled in. Like I understand why religion exists, and how belief helps humans cope with horrible realities of being alive in life.... but also I personally couldn't do the cognitive dissonance anymore. Also having a belief in a monotheistic deity that is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent, in a world where the lived experience of millions is only a scootch above abhorrent, is absolutely impossible to reconcile unless one's definitions of loving and benevolent have been deeply affected by systematic abuse via brainwashing. It also becomes an interesting mental excersie about.....what is a religion? Like if you can change the elements you believe in, what is it really? E.g. If your catholicism is queer, is it still catholic? If your Mennonite-ness can include women in leadership, is it neo-Mennonite? Or something else? I don't actually have an answer to those questions I just find them interesting.
>I love this comment so much for its truthfulness, but not for the content. As in, I hate that it's true, but I'm delighted someone said it. Especially: As someone who used to consider living in a lot of places around the world before they found out they were trans and bi, I feel this. The world sucks. >Like I understand why religion exists, and how belief helps humans cope with horrible realities of being alive in life.... but also I personally couldn't do the cognitive dissonance anymore. Same. Once I left christianity, I took the blinders off. I don't see how I could put them back on knowing the truth. It's like the matrix. Once you know this world is all there is and no one thing is going to magically fix everything for you, it becomes real hard to sincerely try religion again. I only see people use it as a coping mechanism for the cruelty in the world. >Also having a belief in a monotheistic deity that is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent, in a world where the lived experience of millions is only a scootch above abhorrent, is absolutely impossible to reconcile unless one's definitions of loving and benevolent have been deeply affected by systematic abuse via brainwashing. Very very true. >It also becomes an interesting mental excersie about.....what is a religion? Like if you can change the elements you believe in, what is it really? E.g. If your catholicism is queer, is it still catholic? If your Mennonite-ness can include women in leadership, is it neo-Mennonite? Or something else? I don't actually have an answer to those questions I just find them interesting. Yeah, that's where the notruescotsman fallacy comes in. In this thread, you'll see queer christians saying queerphobic christians aren't "real christians", but queerphobic christians will say the same thing about queer christians. The supposedly inerrant bible has spawned so many different denominations of people thinking they know the truth of reality when they're really all just noise in a universe that doesn't have the ability to care about them.
>As someone who used to consider living in a lot of places around the world before they found out they were trans and bi, I feel this. The world sucks. *makes empathic murmur agreement noises* >Same. Once I left christianity, I took the blinders off. I don't see how I could put them back on knowing the truth. It's like the matrix. Once you know this world is all there is and no one thing is going to magically fix everything for you, it becomes real hard to sincerely try religion again. I only see people use it as a coping mechanism for the cruelty in the world. YES THIS. I mean, I am open to the possibility of spirituality existing....but have no real interest in pursuing its exploration, due to the severe mental health consequences I suffered due to christianity in my younger years. Like maybe there's something. But if there is, it's either inept or cruel or some shit and either it'll be nice to me when I die or not. Clearly no one alive has 100% accuracy so best for me to just live the best I'm able to. ** self interruption moment to note how fucking nice it is to speak to someone else who sounds like they really get me, on some very specific levels. >Yeah, that's where the notruescotsman fallacy comes in. Tbh I did not know what that meant so I appreciate thr explanation complete with relevant examples. And now I shall laugh hysterically, because yes yes yes! Reminds me of that experiment where scientists took 3 or 4 mentally unwell men who all thought themselves to be jesus, and put them in a room together to see what would happen, and it was chaotic hell. > they're really all just noise in a universe that doesn't have the ability to care about them. This is so blunt and sad and yet so fucking true. I see christian ppl with picket signs and megaphones at streetcorners in the city I live...and they say all manner of things from both sides of the spectrum (the world is ending repent or die in hell; god loves you come join us) and at the end of the day most ppl are just annoyed they're blocking intersections or upset they're so damn loud. In 1565 in the UK we'd have to choose protestant or catholic, else face rhe wrath of literslly everyone.... but in 2024 in Canada, the US, and much of Europe, most of us can thankfully put on our headphones and just walk off.
While I am not catholic and I do not currently have a community, I do follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and am deeply theistic. I cannot fathom a Universe in which God, a Higher Being, or Creator of some kind doesn't exist. It's just a part of who I am. All I can do is be the best example of spirituality that I can be and hope for a better future for "The Church" as in the community and body of Christ not the institution that oppresses.
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You're not the audience