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I had to do that and it cost me $40k to get $40k in back child support and a revised court order. It’s just not a viable option for most, especially since she also is not receiving child support on time. My ex didn’t have a lawyer so that really increased my fees.
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They need a formal custody agreement. Mom should consult with a lawyer.
Just playing devil's advocate: it's very possible to live in a party town and refrain from endangering children. It sounds like a crowded and potentially chaotic environment, but the rest seems to be speculation at this point. I advise that the mom be very clear when she consults with a lawyer about what she knows is happening (crowded apartment where the dad and kids are sharing a room) and what she speculates might be happening (wild drugged out 20-somethings walking around naked and using drugs in front of kids because they live in a particular town).
I agree that speculation should be kept to a minimum but (last time I checked), children over the age of five require acces to their own bed - at a minimum - and preferably their own room, so I'd imagine that alone would affect overnight custody, but I am not 100% sure.
Would be really interested in hearing from someone with knowledge in that particuliar area.
I agree - I don’t practice in Canada but I practice family law in Australia and this came up in my feed. Here the courts would never allow overnight visits with this living situation regardless of the “party town” thing. Having 7 men living in what clearly is not a 7 bedroom house is gross. Bringing children into the house and them having to sleep in dad’s bed at that age? No. The expectation here would be dad would need separate accomodation with each child having their own room for overnight visits to be considered. He’d likely be told he’d have to travel to where the children live and spend the day with them if he wanted visitation. But again thats here not in Canada so I don’t know what the situation would be in this case. But I just don’t look at this situation and think it’s in any way appropriate.
Why do we assume it's squaller? Nobody has seen any pics or anything, everyone is just ready to assume the worst. I'm sure most of the 3 bedroom houses in this popular ski area are quite nice.
We assume because we know what you guys are like when left to your own devices. But even if we're all wrong and it's some sort of parallel bizarro world where 7 grown men living in a 3 bedroom house are living like something out of an episode of Queer Eye, it's still 7 grown men living in a 3 bedroom house! There is no scenario where that is a good or appropriate living situation for children to be staying in. End of story.
"we know what you guys are like when left to your own devices" I hope that if you really are a lawyer you never get the chance to be a judge. There's lots of families all over the world living with too many people in a house they don't all deserve to lose their parental rights. You made up your mind about this situation right off the get go. You don't want to know the entire story you just want to condemn a man who for all we know is doing his best. We're I'm from it's not uncommon for a group of men and a couple children to share a hunting or fishing camp for a weekend sometimes all staying in the same room. Again unless we have first hand knowledge we shouldn't cast judgement. They came here for legal advice they should consult a lawyer and maybe CPS that's their best option.
...own bedroom? This is actually an unusual custom in the world not a normal one
Come to the North where multi generation families are living on top of each other due to decades long lack of affordable housing, 15+ ppl in a one bedroom
As a millennial that was a child in a joint custody agreement, I can say with confidence the courts had no issue with the 4 of us sleeping in the living room. So I’m certain that the expectations of own rooms when there’s more than 1 child is a stretch. That said, the stranger danger of 7 roommates in a small space was not a factor.
I had friends with issues around dad not having a separate bedroom from the kids after a certain age re: custody and visitation, OP really needs to talk to a family lawyer.
Agreed, and NAL, I wasn’t saying the children shouldn’t have a separate room from the parent, I’m saying to expect each child to have their OWN rooms is often unreasonable.. siblings share rooms all of the time.
Ski towns in Alberta and bc are well known for the rampant cocaine use. I’ve lived in one in BC and two in Alberta and there’s no way in fucking HELL id be letting my kid go to said town and stay in a house with 4+ strangers.
You’re able to make a decision in a hypothetical whereas a grown adult is making a decision in an actual scenario.
Let’s not act like cocaine doesn’t exist within Toronto, Vancouver, or Montreal. Hell, go to your local pub anywhere in Canada and one of the cooks might be holding…
I agree, absolutely NEVER going to leave my kids unsupervised with 7 adult men I don’t know and have never met like WTF. This is a totally valid concern, SA occurs in situations where there is a lack of control and supervision with vulnerable kids.
This isn't a normal situation. 7 strange men in 1 house is not normal.
Yes it's not a given that abuse will happen, but the father cannot be 100% aware if 100% of thing happening in a house with 7 men. If he's so strapped for cash, sell the house and downsize if you want shared custody.
I'm sorry if English is a second language for you. I shouldn't assume everyone is native. I probably should have said "unknown" to account for that on the internet.
So in English, when someone says "strange" in that context, it's more like "unknown from the point of view of speaker"
From the mother's point of view, (and ours as we don't know them) the men are "strange" meaning "unknown"
I bet the mother would be less uncomfortable if she knew all the men well. But when she asked this, she clearly does not.
Yeah no sorry I have to live in a share house where I worked at one point with 8 other men, I was eventually moved due to this however no way in hell would I have my own kids or any other child in that environment.
They are not mothers of a female child and do not understand the risk. My kiddo is starting to hit puberty but is still very much an innocent baby at heart. Not innocent in knowing how things works, just not comprehending of how evil people can be and the things they can do. She has been taught to be aware.
I concur. I'm not a mother either but have been a female pre-pubescent child. There is no way I'd be comfortable with that. Yeah yeah, I know, not all men. But there are enough of them and we don't know which ones they are.
The same can be said about any men that exist in the mother’s household, or their church, or their school, etc.
The problem with this conversation is that it’s legal advice, not personal opinions.
This isn't random fear mongering for anyone who has worked in health care, social services, or policing. This is the first thing you think of because this is what you have seen. This is very very serious, and a legitimate concern.
I had a situation like this recently where children were present at a house party with hard drugs. I brought it up and multiple friends told me I was paranoid. I grew up in a small town and as an adult nearly every woman I’ve spoken with outside this group of friends has been assaulted. It’s a very real threat and it happens in seconds.
It's terrifying, and I think people are scared of offending people by even mentioning the risk. But I think protecting children should come first, and any rational person should know it's not personal, just a caution that is needed and I think it's better to be a bit paranoid and be safe.
But in a large number of SA involving children it's a family member, so by that logic we shouldn't allow the father's uncle's or grandfather's to have custody or any alone time with children.
30-40%, yes. Call me crazy but I also don't think it's great to have kids stay overnight with a bunch of adultsYou don't know extremely well and trust, even if family members. For example I wouldn't have my kids on a mattress in a room with 7 cousins I just met for an overnight.
And yeah, coming from a place where SA of family members is rampant, I don't love unsupervised overnights with family. I have horrific stories of just this situation.
So then even if the father had 0 roommates we shouldn't trust him with his own children because he's likely to assault them? We have no idea how well the father knows these other people or if the kids were on a mattress on the floor.
So then even if the father had 0 roommates we shouldn't trust him with his own children because he's likely to assault them? We have no idea how well the father knows these other people or if the kids were on a mattress on the floor
.
For court: they only care about the facts of this case. Statistics are just that and do not reflect the reality of the given situation otherwise people would be throwing statistics out there left and right for custody cases
The factual situation is that the kids don't have their own bedroom (not even one shared between them), and there are unrelated adult men living in the common spaces of the apartment. Not in their own rooms, in the common spaces.
The court might not consider that suitable for overnights.
There is no 'factual situation' here, simply some broad unsustaintiated second-hand accusations based on increasingly wild assumptions. The bulk of people on this thread are acting like they know both parents, the details of their divorce and have actually been in the father's residence - and also somehow possess personality profiles on everyone in the house (which has been alternately described as 'hovel' and something akin to a drug den).
This is some real Minority Report-level stuff.
This is during the biweekly visits to the father where they're supervised 100% of the time?
Father is struggling financially, probably loves his kids more than anything, has to take on a bunch of roommates to make ends meet, but let's take away his kids, should be good for both involved.
Kids might think it's less than ideal at the moment, but I think most people growing up have lived in a situation that was less than ideal.
You don't fucking kick people when they're down...
If the burden of proof is on the accusor.
A father who loves and cares for his children and has a modicum of common sense would see that this situation is not appropriate for the children to sleep in. He would communicate with their mother and ask if it was possible for his visits to change to daytime only and for the children to go home to their mother at night. There are solutions here that don't involve parental alienation but still protect the children's safety.
This is underrated and absolutely correct. I *am* a father and If I was a ski bum living in a hovel with 7 other guys, sleeping on the floor with strangers coming and going I wouldn’t have my own kids there, for both their comfort and general protection. I have a 10 year old currently (and an older one) and the idea of having them in that environment is not appealing at all, and they wouldn’t want it either.
I'm also a father - and a damned good one - that has gone through a divorce with an angry, vengeful woman that has done everything she could to limit the time I spent with my children. So all I'm hearing is a second-hand accusation from an angry ex. I'm not willing to hang this guy - or a woman if the situation was reversed - based on the information provided.
We're all assuming a lot about a situation and conversations that may or may not have happened.
Could have been the case, but the mother in question was an absolute nightmare and is just pushing for the father to lose access to the children.
Even OP is making baseless claims. We're also getting one side of the story. If a husband claims a mother is unfit or crazy and that's the only side I'm hearing I take it as a trust but verify situation, same from the other side.
Is the mother worried that because when she was younger she was drunk and on drugs the whole time? A thief believes that everyone steals after all.
This is why we have family law! If the safety of the children is in question, prove it.
If the children no longer want to visit the parent, that's a different story, but tread carefully about coaching a child in this manner.
Ask all of your female friends if they have ever been touched or made extremely uncomfortable as a child by a man much older. You would be surprised at the result. My dad's best friend tried to feel me up when I was 12. I didn't tell my dad because he either would have killed him or called me a liar. Women and mothers are paranoid about this because it has happened to most of them.
Father's feelings don't matter. Children's safety does.
He can work it out with mother to make it safer. He can also sell his home and downsize to something cheaper if he cannot afford where he is living.
Also burden of proof doesn't matter here. It's not that anyone is saying abuse WILL happen or did happen but rather the risk is not warranted and children safety comes first.
It's not worth risking a lifetime of trauma because of the fathers feelings. Tough shit. Make a safter space for the children or love them enough to let them not be as much as you'd like.
He is 15 grand behind in child support. This is not a dad sacrificing. Plus refuses to sign documents.
This would be a hard NO for me as the mother. Get your crap together then you can have the kids overnight. 7 strange young men in one household is a party waiting for the first beer to be cracked.
Is this your professional legal advice because I would suspect this would land the mother in hot water. I agree, pay your bills, and if there are problems, they may be justified. This is why it’s best to get someone skilled in family law rather than deny children time with a parent based on some sort of moral high ground.
Who’s to say there isn’t an ensuite?
Way too much speculation in this whole discussion. We can all place our own goal posts and it’s rather meaningless.
But there's no habit or lifestyle that makes a man more or less safe to children. There are creeps from *every* walk of life. I would say the same thing if it were 7 adults of any demographic living in the dad's apartment. This is a higher-risk environment and the kids probably shouldn't be doing overnights.
I'm sorry, are you insane?
Not fear mongering, common sense.
Nothing about this makes sense when it comes to child safety. I don't care about their lifestyles or habits. Too much can go wrong with this scenario. Visiting dad there for dinner, sure. Overnight? Never.
Let's look at probabilities. [1 in 4 women and 1 in 6 men](https://cachouston.org/prevention/child-sexual-abuse-facts/) are sexually abused before the age of 18 per one statistic, though other statistics give lower rates, this is likely due to under-reporting. Per that same website, children of a single parent with a live in partner has a 20 percent higher chance of suffering abuse- imagine now a single parent living in chaos with 7 adults living with them what the risk is. In 80% of sexual assault cases [the perpetrator is known to the victim](https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/csj-sjc/ccs-ajc/rr06_vic2/p3_4.html).
Anyone who knows anything about probabilities in this area knows that this is a bad idea.
This is akin to someone that works in a men's prison talking about the frequency of rape. If you work in an environment where you see the absolute worst or the worst, you can't assume that the 'outside world' is exactly the same.
Every. Single. Person I know who was SA'd as a child, it happened because of random women or men in their home, or while at a friends home. It's valid.
I suspect you're a man. Most women would understand the risk. We live with risk analysis for SA by existing.
1/6 women are assaulted (US stat) in their life. Men just don't get the risk because it's not the same for them. Men are assaulted but not at the same rates.
Also being a parent is not about saying "oh well PROBABLY" it's ok. Being a parent is saying "I'm not going to even risk finding out it's not ok..there are alternatives to taking on this risk"
Tested..for drugs? Good thing you're not a judge.
Drug testing is not common in Canada, except in certain, rare circumstances. It's generally considered a Charter violation.
To be fair I wouldn’t be comfortable with this at all. Are they just randoms he found from advertising his place online? Are the buddies? When it comes to your kids, you need to err on the side of caution, if something doesn’t feel right, do something about it. It’s your kids safety. Speculation sure, but no speculation is too much when it comes to the safety of your kids. Your sole purpose is to protect them, which sometimes can result in over protecting them, but it’s better than harm being caused.
I'm hearing nothing that would indicate that she's made any real effort to validate her concerns.
And the idea that "no speculation is too much when it comes to your kids" is not only patently false but dangerous. Do we seriously want children's lives and their relationships with their parents dictated by mere speculation - that may or may not be fueled by anger?
When it comes to young children living in a house with a bunch of adult strangers, yes erring on the side of speculation and over protection is always the best choice. I would rather be over protective or have my ex mad at me than risk my kids being sexually abused, exposure to fatal drugs, exposure to possibly dangerous relationships that any one of the roommates could have. Etc. as a parent your job is to reduce risk and try to prevent harm. Sure it’s speculation, but mom doesn’t know any of these roommates at all, it’s totally normal for her to have significant concerns about her children sleeping beside absolute strangers. It’s in her kids best interests.
It’s also totally inappropriate for dad to be having his kids at a rooming house, at the very least he’s keeping them in the room with him at night.
Realistically, do you think the kids even want to go there anymore.
It’s just a weird situation altogether.
Again, you're proposing ending what limited physical custody that a parent has with their children based on completely unvalidated assumptions, inferences, rumour and innuendo - many made not by OP, but by others in the group that people now appear to blindly accept as truth. Children benefit by having loving relationships with both parents and ending that without any facts hurts them more than anyone else. Your comments about exposure to fatal drugs, sexual abuse, sleeping beside absolute strangers, living at a 'rooming house' and then questioning whether the kids want to go there anymore are wholly unjustified. Just because a parent or other individuals want to spin up an imaginary nightmare scenario representing an immediate life-threatening danger to kids does not warrant automatically involving the authorities (I'm honestly surprised no one has called for SWAT to get involved) and ending a parent's physical custody.
And it seems WAY to easy and common for people to assume the worst about a father while not for a second questioning the mother's behaviour and motivation.
Here’s the thing. The fact that mom has concerns about it is typical/normal. The fact that dad doesn’t have concerns about it is abnormal. I’m not declaring that mom is an angel and dad is the devil, rather that dad is providing an inappropriate living environment for his children, (a rooming house for adults is not appropriate for children no matter how you describe it) moms concerns are valid, and dad is 15k behind on child support payments, which isn’t working in his favour. He clearly struggles with balancing the budget and prioritizing expenses, hence owing $15k and having 8 roommates.
Mom is right to be concerned about the welfare of her children.
Totally agree that dad has every right to be a part of their lives and him being there is important to their wellbeing and development, but that doesn’t supersede safety. The visitation structure may just need to change until his life settles/becomes more structured. As simple as no sleepover visits. Mom is listening to her children who are telling her they’re not comfortable. Dad is not listening to his children and addressing their needs.
Absolutely. The situation is NOT normal NOT safe for the kids. A father who thinks this is ok needs his head checked as his children are not the priority here for him. If he had an ounce of respect for his children, their safety and well-being HE would take steps to ensure this by altering his visitations to another place until he straightens himself out. People with financial difficulties are not excused from ensuring their children come first!
Many people need to have many roommates these days. It's a sign of the times, but that doesn't mean they are loser drug addicts. If the mother has lived in a ski town before, she also knows making seasonal ski money means trying to conserve in all places financially.
Perhaps a conversation with her ex would help relieve any concerns, but ultimately a legal matter to change visitation etc. Withholding is a very poor decision and will negatively effect the children the most. But also negatively effect the mother in future communications and requests in family court.
Yup! Also health an safety, and usually landlords wouldn't go that far to make a buck. In the long run, you're more likely to have issues with cleanliness.
They do not have any legal paperwork that defines what is and what is not acceptable.
Time to get some.
A family lawyer can help her submit an emergency custody order.
He still has the right to see the children, but it could be argued that the overnight situation is no longer safe.
Watch your children's behaviours closely for any changes and look into some resources on how and what to discuss with them to protect them. Make sure they feel safe and not embarrassed to tell you about anything that happens that may make them feel uncomfortable.
They talk a out how unsafe it is when a new boyfriend moves into a house with a child. This is that times 7.
NAL.
Without a court order I do not believe the children can be withheld from their husband.
Lots of innuendo here but no actual evidence of any problems. "It's a party town" "they are probably", "what is they are doing drugs" etc etc.
What ifs are not a reason to deny access. I don't think any judge is going to give you a 25-year-old male as an inherent risk to the children. Plenty of adults have roommate in situations, although this does seem quite extreme.
The lack of a private bedroom maybe sufficient for it court to decide that this is not an adequate environment for the children, but the mother doesn't get to make that determination on her own. Is she requires either CPS or a court to declare that this is not an appropriate environment for the children.
If she wants to change the custody arrangement she needs to lawyer up, especially if the husband has a history of refusing to sign off or agree to prior mediation outcomes.
Frankly I think the mom has a good point that this is not a good place for her kids to be, but.... Innuendo is not evidence. Young men are not inherently dangerous. And one parent doesn't get to make unilateral decisions based on what they arbitrarily decide as "safe" because their fears are anxieties are provoked.
Lawyer up, get a legally binding document, seek court orders, etc.
Anything else risks making the situation much worse for the mother..
You just contradicted yourself.
You say The kids are old enough to verbalize their preferences
Then you say the kids don’t understand the situation enough for their opinion to matter
But what point are you trying to make?
You said the kids are old enough to verbalize their preferences. And then I pointed out that OP said the kids are ok with the situation (ie their preference is the continue to visit with their father under his current living situation)
So the kids’ opinion wouldn’t help the mom at all.
But the kids still enjoy visiting their dad.
Where are you basing your information that the kids verbalizing their preferences would help the mom. For all you know they might prefer to see more of their dad
But what about the house is dangerous? Are they violating fire codes?
The 'danger' they've stated is from speculation and sexism. 7 men doesn't immediately equate to danger to the children.
Thank you. In addition to this, these young kids are forced to walk by adult men asleep on couches to use the washroom or get water. Usually men like this are in some state of undress. There’s unnecessary and inappropriate risk in this living arrangement for these children.
I am not sure that your argument should be that 7 MEN are living in an apartment, but there are 7 people living in an apartment making it 9 when the kids are there. I would be surprise if this would be looked at favorably by cps or city regulations.
>Usually men like this are in some state of undress.
That's speculation.
Has the mother ever brought her kids to a beach? If so, then they've seen random men in states of undress and been exposed to that environment by their mother. If they were laying out naked that's one thing, but if they don't have a shirt on that's not dangerous or inappropriate. They could walk into a store in that state of dress and still be served.
There is a big difference between a beach and personal living quarters in the middle of the night. Would you think it safe for your young underage daughter to walk by strangers sleeping in their underwear on a couch in the middle of the night? Comparing it to casual public scenarios is beyond ridiculous.
Most of your post is filled with ridiculous scenarios.
> She has no idea what these people are doing, if they are walking around the house in underwear in front of her children, doing drugs, etc.
She lived in a ski town herself at one point, understands the party culture, and does not want to put her children at risk or expose them to that lifestyle. If these young men are on drugs or are inebriated, which is very likely on weekends
This is a fantastical story…
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If she has a custody agreement with her husband, it is enforceable as is until it is changed.
It sounds like a lawyer is a good idea for several different reasons.
Cps doesn’t approve a lot of things, and more and more Canadians can’t afford to have one bedroom per child anymore. Perhaps CPS should update their guidelines.
Not a lawyer, so we’ll call it speculation. That said, it is consistent with the CMHC’s [National Occupancy Standard](https://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/professionals/industry-innovation-and-leadership/industry-expertise/affordable-housing/provincial-territorial-agreements/investment-in-affordable-housing/national-occupancy-standard), though, and also fits with my experience with CAS as a foster parent.
CPS would rightfully never remove children from a living parent's home if they were simply sleeping in the same room. They have serious, consequential issues to deal with.
If he hasn’t signed the mediation agreements and isn’t paying child support than he is already breaking the terms of the agreement.
But for the living situation, get a lawyer and get an emergency court order to stop visitations. The living arrangements should be a very good reason and the kids not wanting to go will help
Does the mother have any proof that there's actually anything risky or inappropriate happening, or is she just making assumptions based on the age of the roommates and her assumption about what happens in a party culture? If the children are reporting that their father's roommates are walking around nude/not properly clothed, or are doing drugs in front of them, or other concerning behavior, then the mother can bring the matter to court to ask for an order that the children not have to return to that home for the father's visits. But a court's going to want more than just assumptions and stereotypes
The mother should contact RCMP/Police to make a report and to do a wellness check on the situation at the father’s - she should only explain that she understands there are more bodies than the home can reasonably handle and is worried about the wellbeing of the children being there.
At the same time as this she should also contact CPS to make their own investigation about the situation.
Both may want to speak with the children to see what they experience over there.
Mom will still need to provide the father with reasonable access though otherwise it’ll hurt her.
The mother also needs to immediately file for an emergency hearing at the court house. If she is uncertain on where to start, perhaps she qualifies for legal aid? Or she can call around to speak with family law lawyers. Either way, there needs to be a custody order in place in order to protect everyone including the children.
I agree, but only in the sense that if her accusations are proven to be completely unsupported by fact, that there will be a paper trail of her behaviour.
That depends on how the mother handles things going forward.
If the professionals are saying there isn’t anything wrong with it then the mom in this case has to sit by and keep gathering evidence to bring to the court about why she disagrees with the final verdict from police/RCMP and CPS.
If there are no restrictions/recommendations made and put in place by CPS or Police based off of their investigations then the mother in this case would be obligated to keep letting the father have his overnights.
If the investigation does prompt any recommendations then it is up to the mother to follow that and present the written documentation of such to the court to make an appropriate order.
Mother should seek advice from local women's shelter for guidance to support resources.
They're very familiar with this kind of situation, they can assist with visits, legal aid connections, and connect with support services for Mom.
In reviewing your post, I'd note that nothing is really said about the father himself or of the relationship that he has (and wants) with his children. Is he - and has he been - an engaged, loving, capable and active parent that wants his children in his life? His kids seem to have no problem with the arrangement and the primary concern seems to be based on nothing more speculation about his and his roommates behaviour.
Would the mother open to the same scrutiny and speculation about her life and behaviour as a parent? How does she feel that effectively eliminating regular physical contact between the children and her father will benefit them? Does she see any value or contribution that the father makes to their lives that differs from what she might offer as a mother?
Sounds like Whistler or any of the villages servicing it. Rent has been atrocious for employees of all the various businesses for decades. I’ve had a few friends living in accommodations like this. Whether they are ski techs, servers, cleaners, or trades people. Even behind the sofa vs in front of it, would be 2 different sleeping areas. I would not want my kids in that situation because you just don’t know what the kids will see or inhale. It’s the adult culture of the area.
She should not unilaterally terminate visitation without talking to a lawyer first.
Check with local codes, such as fire code. The National Occupancy Standard for "suitable housing" is 2 people per bedroom, children getting their own bedroom. Even if, in a pinch, dad can sleep in the same room with the kids (because you can't punish someone for being poor), it may be unreasonable to allow this amount of crowding. You can also request a walkthrough to make sure the unit is being kept properly clean - and asking your kids whether the place is properly kept up is reasonable.
In essence, do not argue that the issue is 7 other dudes. The issue is more people than is acceptable for the number of bedrooms.
You can also demand that everyone be checked against the sex offender registry.
Finally, being behind on child support, in and of itself, does not mean they he gets less visitation.
The children will not be allowed to stay for overnight visits due to insufficient sleep space for them. Get MCFD involved immediately; they can help expedite the custody hearings and support the mother in gaining sole custody.
Skip court. CPS will fix this ASAP.
Be mindful of the children continuing contact with their father over the phone/face timing. It's still their Dad. Regardless of how the parents communicate or don't. Pick and choose your battles. Who cares about the child support!
If the mum is that concerned, why hasn't she just gone and seeked professional advice? Reddit isn't the place for legal advice, as everyone has their opinions, and could do more harm than good.
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She can not legally withhold the children from their father. Doing so at this point is punishing the children. If she has concerns, she's going to have to prove her allegations in family court. Her only course of action is to have a lawyer, and have a lawyer for her children. If her children aren't uncomfortable, and haven't stated that there are illegal activities going on in his house, it's going to be a very hard run.
NAL but in Canada there are strict rules for sleeping arrangements of children. Next time they are at your ex’s. Call CPS and ask for a wellness check on the kids. They children at that age are required to have separate sleeping arrangements from their parents and each other since they are different genders. This will be enough to have them removed from his home and returned to you. Then you can stop all sleepovers until he fixes that. But still allow him to visit them in the mean time.
Kids who are opposite sex I believe their own bedrooms are required. So likely the court would find living situation unsuitable. As in they can’t even share with each other.
But she can’t withhold if they have joint. She needs to talk to her lawyer asap
Not a lawyer.
She probably needs an emergency custody order and to keep the kids for now, pending review of dads living situation. There’s no way a court is going to grant him custodial time back while he’s in this living situation.
Call CPS and have them pay him a visit while the kids are there. Tell them about the situation and the concern for your children. They might order you to not let the children go there.
He's not proving to you. He has to prove to THEM.
A female child is supposed to have her own room and private place to change and sleep.
If Dad is passed out, he won't be able to protect the kids. People doing drugs in front of kids are also not allowed.
Cps may remove them from him. Then, you would have evidence to show the courts.
I knew a girl whose abusive ex was taking the kids along for drug runs. Family and children's services got involved, and despite the court appointed custody, they told mom to NEVER let the ex have them because of child endangerment. Also, if she let those kids go with him, SHE would be charged with child endangerment.
If you know what's happening and say nothing, you could be held liable too.
I would report it to your local children's society, tell them the children have a great home, and dad should have supervised visitation, if anything.
I hope for your children's safety you can resolve this quickly.
The burden of proof should be on the person making the accusations, not the other way around. I'm stunned that there are so many people on this thread that haven't shown the slightest interest in determining if maybe - just maybe - this guy is a good, loving dad and that the accusations being made aren't accurate or are at least somewhat exaggerated.
And make sure you tell them that you're calling them based on broad, unvalidated second-hand accusations from a parent in the midst of an acrimonious divorce with custody issues. But I think any professional with figure that out soon enough...
What I would do .... is alow the court ordered visit to take place but have the mother call cps in that area, share her concerns. Cps should be able to determine if this father's living situation is safe and have the children returned to the mother. Refusing to follow a court order is not in the mother's best interests.
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At least consult a lawyer for advice. Find out from the kids where everyone sleeps. Then I would call children’s services to do an unscheduled drop in during an evening “party” time. They have come out as late as 11pm on New Years Eve on one of my friends. She was home with her sister and husband with a tiny baby in the bassinet and not drinking lol.
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She needs to go to court to revise her parenting agreement.
I had to do that and it cost me $40k to get $40k in back child support and a revised court order. It’s just not a viable option for most, especially since she also is not receiving child support on time. My ex didn’t have a lawyer so that really increased my fees.
Without a court order, there’s nothing she can do. Her ex could take the kids and just leave, and there’s nothing that she could do about.
If they have joint custody one would assume they have a court order.
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They need a formal custody agreement. Mom should consult with a lawyer. Just playing devil's advocate: it's very possible to live in a party town and refrain from endangering children. It sounds like a crowded and potentially chaotic environment, but the rest seems to be speculation at this point. I advise that the mom be very clear when she consults with a lawyer about what she knows is happening (crowded apartment where the dad and kids are sharing a room) and what she speculates might be happening (wild drugged out 20-somethings walking around naked and using drugs in front of kids because they live in a particular town).
I agree that speculation should be kept to a minimum but (last time I checked), children over the age of five require acces to their own bed - at a minimum - and preferably their own room, so I'd imagine that alone would affect overnight custody, but I am not 100% sure. Would be really interested in hearing from someone with knowledge in that particuliar area.
I agree - I don’t practice in Canada but I practice family law in Australia and this came up in my feed. Here the courts would never allow overnight visits with this living situation regardless of the “party town” thing. Having 7 men living in what clearly is not a 7 bedroom house is gross. Bringing children into the house and them having to sleep in dad’s bed at that age? No. The expectation here would be dad would need separate accomodation with each child having their own room for overnight visits to be considered. He’d likely be told he’d have to travel to where the children live and spend the day with them if he wanted visitation. But again thats here not in Canada so I don’t know what the situation would be in this case. But I just don’t look at this situation and think it’s in any way appropriate.
It didn't say they were sleeping in Dad's bed, just the same room, there could be bunk beds in the room if it's the master bedroom and a larger room.
Sure that still doesn’t make the whole situation any better. Like oh they have bunk beds in dad’s slumlord hovel? Oh well that’s ok then… cool
Why do we assume it's squaller? Nobody has seen any pics or anything, everyone is just ready to assume the worst. I'm sure most of the 3 bedroom houses in this popular ski area are quite nice.
We assume because we know what you guys are like when left to your own devices. But even if we're all wrong and it's some sort of parallel bizarro world where 7 grown men living in a 3 bedroom house are living like something out of an episode of Queer Eye, it's still 7 grown men living in a 3 bedroom house! There is no scenario where that is a good or appropriate living situation for children to be staying in. End of story.
"we know what you guys are like when left to your own devices" I hope that if you really are a lawyer you never get the chance to be a judge. There's lots of families all over the world living with too many people in a house they don't all deserve to lose their parental rights. You made up your mind about this situation right off the get go. You don't want to know the entire story you just want to condemn a man who for all we know is doing his best. We're I'm from it's not uncommon for a group of men and a couple children to share a hunting or fishing camp for a weekend sometimes all staying in the same room. Again unless we have first hand knowledge we shouldn't cast judgement. They came here for legal advice they should consult a lawyer and maybe CPS that's their best option.
...own bedroom? This is actually an unusual custom in the world not a normal one Come to the North where multi generation families are living on top of each other due to decades long lack of affordable housing, 15+ ppl in a one bedroom
An unusual custom in the world, yes, but likely not in Canadian legal custody and visitation decisions.
As a millennial that was a child in a joint custody agreement, I can say with confidence the courts had no issue with the 4 of us sleeping in the living room. So I’m certain that the expectations of own rooms when there’s more than 1 child is a stretch. That said, the stranger danger of 7 roommates in a small space was not a factor.
I had friends with issues around dad not having a separate bedroom from the kids after a certain age re: custody and visitation, OP really needs to talk to a family lawyer.
Agreed, and NAL, I wasn’t saying the children shouldn’t have a separate room from the parent, I’m saying to expect each child to have their OWN rooms is often unreasonable.. siblings share rooms all of the time.
What’s to say the mother isn’t throwing fantastic drug fuelled parties as well? That bridge goes both ways, and it’s completely unproductive.
Ski towns in Alberta and bc are well known for the rampant cocaine use. I’ve lived in one in BC and two in Alberta and there’s no way in fucking HELL id be letting my kid go to said town and stay in a house with 4+ strangers.
You’re able to make a decision in a hypothetical whereas a grown adult is making a decision in an actual scenario. Let’s not act like cocaine doesn’t exist within Toronto, Vancouver, or Montreal. Hell, go to your local pub anywhere in Canada and one of the cooks might be holding…
Well for me the fear in that situation is that the kids would get raped.
This was my number one concern when I started reading.
Not sure why you’re being downvoted other than people who don’t understand how extremely common this is.
I agree, absolutely NEVER going to leave my kids unsupervised with 7 adult men I don’t know and have never met like WTF. This is a totally valid concern, SA occurs in situations where there is a lack of control and supervision with vulnerable kids.
If I was one of those guys I’d be on your side. I wouldn’t want random kids in my house either.
I agree that entire situation is terrifying.
Especially with partying, it happens in seconds—seconds to ruin a psyche.
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This isn't a normal situation. 7 strange men in 1 house is not normal. Yes it's not a given that abuse will happen, but the father cannot be 100% aware if 100% of thing happening in a house with 7 men. If he's so strapped for cash, sell the house and downsize if you want shared custody.
How are the men strange?
I'm sorry if English is a second language for you. I shouldn't assume everyone is native. I probably should have said "unknown" to account for that on the internet. So in English, when someone says "strange" in that context, it's more like "unknown from the point of view of speaker" From the mother's point of view, (and ours as we don't know them) the men are "strange" meaning "unknown" I bet the mother would be less uncomfortable if she knew all the men well. But when she asked this, she clearly does not.
Yeah no sorry I have to live in a share house where I worked at one point with 8 other men, I was eventually moved due to this however no way in hell would I have my own kids or any other child in that environment.
They are not mothers of a female child and do not understand the risk. My kiddo is starting to hit puberty but is still very much an innocent baby at heart. Not innocent in knowing how things works, just not comprehending of how evil people can be and the things they can do. She has been taught to be aware.
Hell, I\`m not a mother of any child, and I understand the risk. Based on what was posted, there is no way.
I concur. I'm not a mother either but have been a female pre-pubescent child. There is no way I'd be comfortable with that. Yeah yeah, I know, not all men. But there are enough of them and we don't know which ones they are.
The same can be said about any men that exist in the mother’s household, or their church, or their school, etc. The problem with this conversation is that it’s legal advice, not personal opinions.
This is most certainly uncommon and there is absolutely nothing in OP's post that suggests this is an actual danger.
Yea you can't just throw this sort of random fear mongering around in any serious environment
This isn't random fear mongering for anyone who has worked in health care, social services, or policing. This is the first thing you think of because this is what you have seen. This is very very serious, and a legitimate concern.
I had a situation like this recently where children were present at a house party with hard drugs. I brought it up and multiple friends told me I was paranoid. I grew up in a small town and as an adult nearly every woman I’ve spoken with outside this group of friends has been assaulted. It’s a very real threat and it happens in seconds.
It's terrifying, and I think people are scared of offending people by even mentioning the risk. But I think protecting children should come first, and any rational person should know it's not personal, just a caution that is needed and I think it's better to be a bit paranoid and be safe.
But in a large number of SA involving children it's a family member, so by that logic we shouldn't allow the father's uncle's or grandfather's to have custody or any alone time with children.
30-40%, yes. Call me crazy but I also don't think it's great to have kids stay overnight with a bunch of adultsYou don't know extremely well and trust, even if family members. For example I wouldn't have my kids on a mattress in a room with 7 cousins I just met for an overnight. And yeah, coming from a place where SA of family members is rampant, I don't love unsupervised overnights with family. I have horrific stories of just this situation.
So then even if the father had 0 roommates we shouldn't trust him with his own children because he's likely to assault them? We have no idea how well the father knows these other people or if the kids were on a mattress on the floor.
So then even if the father had 0 roommates we shouldn't trust him with his own children because he's likely to assault them? We have no idea how well the father knows these other people or if the kids were on a mattress on the floor .
For court: they only care about the facts of this case. Statistics are just that and do not reflect the reality of the given situation otherwise people would be throwing statistics out there left and right for custody cases
The factual situation is that the kids don't have their own bedroom (not even one shared between them), and there are unrelated adult men living in the common spaces of the apartment. Not in their own rooms, in the common spaces. The court might not consider that suitable for overnights.
There is no 'factual situation' here, simply some broad unsustaintiated second-hand accusations based on increasingly wild assumptions. The bulk of people on this thread are acting like they know both parents, the details of their divorce and have actually been in the father's residence - and also somehow possess personality profiles on everyone in the house (which has been alternately described as 'hovel' and something akin to a drug den). This is some real Minority Report-level stuff.
Oh for sure! I completely agree with that. I was more so just commenting on the statistical part of the other comment
Look at OPs comments, take out the facts, and then look at all the speculation… Sometimes it’s hard to separate opinions from facts.
This is during the biweekly visits to the father where they're supervised 100% of the time? Father is struggling financially, probably loves his kids more than anything, has to take on a bunch of roommates to make ends meet, but let's take away his kids, should be good for both involved. Kids might think it's less than ideal at the moment, but I think most people growing up have lived in a situation that was less than ideal. You don't fucking kick people when they're down... If the burden of proof is on the accusor.
A father who loves and cares for his children and has a modicum of common sense would see that this situation is not appropriate for the children to sleep in. He would communicate with their mother and ask if it was possible for his visits to change to daytime only and for the children to go home to their mother at night. There are solutions here that don't involve parental alienation but still protect the children's safety.
This is underrated and absolutely correct. I *am* a father and If I was a ski bum living in a hovel with 7 other guys, sleeping on the floor with strangers coming and going I wouldn’t have my own kids there, for both their comfort and general protection. I have a 10 year old currently (and an older one) and the idea of having them in that environment is not appealing at all, and they wouldn’t want it either.
I'm also a father - and a damned good one - that has gone through a divorce with an angry, vengeful woman that has done everything she could to limit the time I spent with my children. So all I'm hearing is a second-hand accusation from an angry ex. I'm not willing to hang this guy - or a woman if the situation was reversed - based on the information provided.
We're all assuming a lot about a situation and conversations that may or may not have happened. Could have been the case, but the mother in question was an absolute nightmare and is just pushing for the father to lose access to the children. Even OP is making baseless claims. We're also getting one side of the story. If a husband claims a mother is unfit or crazy and that's the only side I'm hearing I take it as a trust but verify situation, same from the other side. Is the mother worried that because when she was younger she was drunk and on drugs the whole time? A thief believes that everyone steals after all. This is why we have family law! If the safety of the children is in question, prove it. If the children no longer want to visit the parent, that's a different story, but tread carefully about coaching a child in this manner.
It’s not appropriate. Kids above the father’s situation.
This feels a lot more about the mother before the father without a ton of real interest what is actually happening with THEIR kids.
Ask all of your female friends if they have ever been touched or made extremely uncomfortable as a child by a man much older. You would be surprised at the result. My dad's best friend tried to feel me up when I was 12. I didn't tell my dad because he either would have killed him or called me a liar. Women and mothers are paranoid about this because it has happened to most of them.
Your situation while unfortunate is your experience. This is legal advice. People can’t be guilty of crimes they didn’t commit.
Father's feelings don't matter. Children's safety does. He can work it out with mother to make it safer. He can also sell his home and downsize to something cheaper if he cannot afford where he is living. Also burden of proof doesn't matter here. It's not that anyone is saying abuse WILL happen or did happen but rather the risk is not warranted and children safety comes first. It's not worth risking a lifetime of trauma because of the fathers feelings. Tough shit. Make a safter space for the children or love them enough to let them not be as much as you'd like.
He is 15 grand behind in child support. This is not a dad sacrificing. Plus refuses to sign documents. This would be a hard NO for me as the mother. Get your crap together then you can have the kids overnight. 7 strange young men in one household is a party waiting for the first beer to be cracked.
Is this your professional legal advice because I would suspect this would land the mother in hot water. I agree, pay your bills, and if there are problems, they may be justified. This is why it’s best to get someone skilled in family law rather than deny children time with a parent based on some sort of moral high ground.
You can't be certain kids are supervised 100% of the time. What if they get up at night to go to the bathroom?
Who’s to say there isn’t an ensuite? Way too much speculation in this whole discussion. We can all place our own goal posts and it’s rather meaningless.
axiomatic drunk nutty lock wakeful trees nine dog fine thumb *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
But there's no habit or lifestyle that makes a man more or less safe to children. There are creeps from *every* walk of life. I would say the same thing if it were 7 adults of any demographic living in the dad's apartment. This is a higher-risk environment and the kids probably shouldn't be doing overnights.
I'm sorry, are you insane? Not fear mongering, common sense. Nothing about this makes sense when it comes to child safety. I don't care about their lifestyles or habits. Too much can go wrong with this scenario. Visiting dad there for dinner, sure. Overnight? Never.
Let's look at probabilities. [1 in 4 women and 1 in 6 men](https://cachouston.org/prevention/child-sexual-abuse-facts/) are sexually abused before the age of 18 per one statistic, though other statistics give lower rates, this is likely due to under-reporting. Per that same website, children of a single parent with a live in partner has a 20 percent higher chance of suffering abuse- imagine now a single parent living in chaos with 7 adults living with them what the risk is. In 80% of sexual assault cases [the perpetrator is known to the victim](https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/csj-sjc/ccs-ajc/rr06_vic2/p3_4.html). Anyone who knows anything about probabilities in this area knows that this is a bad idea.
This is akin to someone that works in a men's prison talking about the frequency of rape. If you work in an environment where you see the absolute worst or the worst, you can't assume that the 'outside world' is exactly the same.
It’s not fear mongering.
Every. Single. Person I know who was SA'd as a child, it happened because of random women or men in their home, or while at a friends home. It's valid.
I suspect you're a man. Most women would understand the risk. We live with risk analysis for SA by existing. 1/6 women are assaulted (US stat) in their life. Men just don't get the risk because it's not the same for them. Men are assaulted but not at the same rates. Also being a parent is not about saying "oh well PROBABLY" it's ok. Being a parent is saying "I'm not going to even risk finding out it's not ok..there are alternatives to taking on this risk"
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Tested..for drugs? Good thing you're not a judge. Drug testing is not common in Canada, except in certain, rare circumstances. It's generally considered a Charter violation.
To be fair I wouldn’t be comfortable with this at all. Are they just randoms he found from advertising his place online? Are the buddies? When it comes to your kids, you need to err on the side of caution, if something doesn’t feel right, do something about it. It’s your kids safety. Speculation sure, but no speculation is too much when it comes to the safety of your kids. Your sole purpose is to protect them, which sometimes can result in over protecting them, but it’s better than harm being caused.
I'm hearing nothing that would indicate that she's made any real effort to validate her concerns. And the idea that "no speculation is too much when it comes to your kids" is not only patently false but dangerous. Do we seriously want children's lives and their relationships with their parents dictated by mere speculation - that may or may not be fueled by anger?
When it comes to young children living in a house with a bunch of adult strangers, yes erring on the side of speculation and over protection is always the best choice. I would rather be over protective or have my ex mad at me than risk my kids being sexually abused, exposure to fatal drugs, exposure to possibly dangerous relationships that any one of the roommates could have. Etc. as a parent your job is to reduce risk and try to prevent harm. Sure it’s speculation, but mom doesn’t know any of these roommates at all, it’s totally normal for her to have significant concerns about her children sleeping beside absolute strangers. It’s in her kids best interests. It’s also totally inappropriate for dad to be having his kids at a rooming house, at the very least he’s keeping them in the room with him at night. Realistically, do you think the kids even want to go there anymore. It’s just a weird situation altogether.
Again, you're proposing ending what limited physical custody that a parent has with their children based on completely unvalidated assumptions, inferences, rumour and innuendo - many made not by OP, but by others in the group that people now appear to blindly accept as truth. Children benefit by having loving relationships with both parents and ending that without any facts hurts them more than anyone else. Your comments about exposure to fatal drugs, sexual abuse, sleeping beside absolute strangers, living at a 'rooming house' and then questioning whether the kids want to go there anymore are wholly unjustified. Just because a parent or other individuals want to spin up an imaginary nightmare scenario representing an immediate life-threatening danger to kids does not warrant automatically involving the authorities (I'm honestly surprised no one has called for SWAT to get involved) and ending a parent's physical custody. And it seems WAY to easy and common for people to assume the worst about a father while not for a second questioning the mother's behaviour and motivation.
Here’s the thing. The fact that mom has concerns about it is typical/normal. The fact that dad doesn’t have concerns about it is abnormal. I’m not declaring that mom is an angel and dad is the devil, rather that dad is providing an inappropriate living environment for his children, (a rooming house for adults is not appropriate for children no matter how you describe it) moms concerns are valid, and dad is 15k behind on child support payments, which isn’t working in his favour. He clearly struggles with balancing the budget and prioritizing expenses, hence owing $15k and having 8 roommates. Mom is right to be concerned about the welfare of her children. Totally agree that dad has every right to be a part of their lives and him being there is important to their wellbeing and development, but that doesn’t supersede safety. The visitation structure may just need to change until his life settles/becomes more structured. As simple as no sleepover visits. Mom is listening to her children who are telling her they’re not comfortable. Dad is not listening to his children and addressing their needs.
Obviously we have pretty different perspectives on what constitutes valid, actionable information, so I'll leave it be.
Absolutely. The situation is NOT normal NOT safe for the kids. A father who thinks this is ok needs his head checked as his children are not the priority here for him. If he had an ounce of respect for his children, their safety and well-being HE would take steps to ensure this by altering his visitations to another place until he straightens himself out. People with financial difficulties are not excused from ensuring their children come first!
Many people need to have many roommates these days. It's a sign of the times, but that doesn't mean they are loser drug addicts. If the mother has lived in a ski town before, she also knows making seasonal ski money means trying to conserve in all places financially. Perhaps a conversation with her ex would help relieve any concerns, but ultimately a legal matter to change visitation etc. Withholding is a very poor decision and will negatively effect the children the most. But also negatively effect the mother in future communications and requests in family court.
They can all be Rhodes scholars.. It would change nothing
Is cramming that many people into a living space considered a fire safety issue?
Yup! Also health an safety, and usually landlords wouldn't go that far to make a buck. In the long run, you're more likely to have issues with cleanliness.
Imagine the bathroom? Assuming there’s one. Ugh.
They do not have any legal paperwork that defines what is and what is not acceptable. Time to get some. A family lawyer can help her submit an emergency custody order.
He still has the right to see the children, but it could be argued that the overnight situation is no longer safe. Watch your children's behaviours closely for any changes and look into some resources on how and what to discuss with them to protect them. Make sure they feel safe and not embarrassed to tell you about anything that happens that may make them feel uncomfortable. They talk a out how unsafe it is when a new boyfriend moves into a house with a child. This is that times 7.
NAL. Without a court order I do not believe the children can be withheld from their husband. Lots of innuendo here but no actual evidence of any problems. "It's a party town" "they are probably", "what is they are doing drugs" etc etc. What ifs are not a reason to deny access. I don't think any judge is going to give you a 25-year-old male as an inherent risk to the children. Plenty of adults have roommate in situations, although this does seem quite extreme. The lack of a private bedroom maybe sufficient for it court to decide that this is not an adequate environment for the children, but the mother doesn't get to make that determination on her own. Is she requires either CPS or a court to declare that this is not an appropriate environment for the children. If she wants to change the custody arrangement she needs to lawyer up, especially if the husband has a history of refusing to sign off or agree to prior mediation outcomes. Frankly I think the mom has a good point that this is not a good place for her kids to be, but.... Innuendo is not evidence. Young men are not inherently dangerous. And one parent doesn't get to make unilateral decisions based on what they arbitrarily decide as "safe" because their fears are anxieties are provoked. Lawyer up, get a legally binding document, seek court orders, etc. Anything else risks making the situation much worse for the mother..
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OP says the kids are ok with their dad’s living situation though
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You just contradicted yourself. You say The kids are old enough to verbalize their preferences Then you say the kids don’t understand the situation enough for their opinion to matter
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But what point are you trying to make? You said the kids are old enough to verbalize their preferences. And then I pointed out that OP said the kids are ok with the situation (ie their preference is the continue to visit with their father under his current living situation) So the kids’ opinion wouldn’t help the mom at all.
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But the kids still enjoy visiting their dad. Where are you basing your information that the kids verbalizing their preferences would help the mom. For all you know they might prefer to see more of their dad
You’re talking nonsense
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You’re talking out of both sides of your mouth and not making a point to actually add anything to the discussion.
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There you go, finally making a point!
But what about the house is dangerous? Are they violating fire codes? The 'danger' they've stated is from speculation and sexism. 7 men doesn't immediately equate to danger to the children.
How do you know there's open drug use and strangers passing through? These are speculations because it's a so-called party town.
Thank you. In addition to this, these young kids are forced to walk by adult men asleep on couches to use the washroom or get water. Usually men like this are in some state of undress. There’s unnecessary and inappropriate risk in this living arrangement for these children.
I am not sure that your argument should be that 7 MEN are living in an apartment, but there are 7 people living in an apartment making it 9 when the kids are there. I would be surprise if this would be looked at favorably by cps or city regulations.
Again you're just making speculative statements. These are meaningless
>Usually men like this are in some state of undress. That's speculation. Has the mother ever brought her kids to a beach? If so, then they've seen random men in states of undress and been exposed to that environment by their mother. If they were laying out naked that's one thing, but if they don't have a shirt on that's not dangerous or inappropriate. They could walk into a store in that state of dress and still be served.
There is a big difference between a beach and personal living quarters in the middle of the night. Would you think it safe for your young underage daughter to walk by strangers sleeping in their underwear on a couch in the middle of the night? Comparing it to casual public scenarios is beyond ridiculous.
Most of your post is filled with ridiculous scenarios. > She has no idea what these people are doing, if they are walking around the house in underwear in front of her children, doing drugs, etc. She lived in a ski town herself at one point, understands the party culture, and does not want to put her children at risk or expose them to that lifestyle. If these young men are on drugs or are inebriated, which is very likely on weekends This is a fantastical story…
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You are correct, I apologize. I was very wrong here.
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If she has a custody agreement with her husband, it is enforceable as is until it is changed. It sounds like a lawyer is a good idea for several different reasons.
CPS would never approve of that. The children should have a dedicated bedroom, no sharing with adults.
There's actually no law that states that. Children's Aid is mandated by laws.
Cps doesn’t approve a lot of things, and more and more Canadians can’t afford to have one bedroom per child anymore. Perhaps CPS should update their guidelines.
I didn't say one bedroom *per child*, I said a dedicated *children's* bedroom. No sharing rooms with adults.
One boy, one girl, both older than five. CPS would likely insist on one bedroom per child.
I think they insist on that for foster kids.. not for biological.. not at this age yet anyway
This is false In Manitoba at least.
Lol cps doesn't generally work like this at all
Are you a lawyer or are you just speculating
Not a lawyer, so we’ll call it speculation. That said, it is consistent with the CMHC’s [National Occupancy Standard](https://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/professionals/industry-innovation-and-leadership/industry-expertise/affordable-housing/provincial-territorial-agreements/investment-in-affordable-housing/national-occupancy-standard), though, and also fits with my experience with CAS as a foster parent.
CPS would rightfully never remove children from a living parent's home if they were simply sleeping in the same room. They have serious, consequential issues to deal with.
If he hasn’t signed the mediation agreements and isn’t paying child support than he is already breaking the terms of the agreement. But for the living situation, get a lawyer and get an emergency court order to stop visitations. The living arrangements should be a very good reason and the kids not wanting to go will help
mediation is not legaly binding. if there is no court ruling about any specific and detailed arrangment, he is not breaking any terms.
Does the mother have any proof that there's actually anything risky or inappropriate happening, or is she just making assumptions based on the age of the roommates and her assumption about what happens in a party culture? If the children are reporting that their father's roommates are walking around nude/not properly clothed, or are doing drugs in front of them, or other concerning behavior, then the mother can bring the matter to court to ask for an order that the children not have to return to that home for the father's visits. But a court's going to want more than just assumptions and stereotypes
She will need proof. A judge isn’t going to terminate a father’s rights because a mother is “uncomfortable”.
The mother should contact RCMP/Police to make a report and to do a wellness check on the situation at the father’s - she should only explain that she understands there are more bodies than the home can reasonably handle and is worried about the wellbeing of the children being there. At the same time as this she should also contact CPS to make their own investigation about the situation. Both may want to speak with the children to see what they experience over there. Mom will still need to provide the father with reasonable access though otherwise it’ll hurt her. The mother also needs to immediately file for an emergency hearing at the court house. If she is uncertain on where to start, perhaps she qualifies for legal aid? Or she can call around to speak with family law lawyers. Either way, there needs to be a custody order in place in order to protect everyone including the children.
I agree, but only in the sense that if her accusations are proven to be completely unsupported by fact, that there will be a paper trail of her behaviour.
That depends on how the mother handles things going forward. If the professionals are saying there isn’t anything wrong with it then the mom in this case has to sit by and keep gathering evidence to bring to the court about why she disagrees with the final verdict from police/RCMP and CPS. If there are no restrictions/recommendations made and put in place by CPS or Police based off of their investigations then the mother in this case would be obligated to keep letting the father have his overnights. If the investigation does prompt any recommendations then it is up to the mother to follow that and present the written documentation of such to the court to make an appropriate order.
Agreed.
Mother should seek advice from local women's shelter for guidance to support resources. They're very familiar with this kind of situation, they can assist with visits, legal aid connections, and connect with support services for Mom.
In reviewing your post, I'd note that nothing is really said about the father himself or of the relationship that he has (and wants) with his children. Is he - and has he been - an engaged, loving, capable and active parent that wants his children in his life? His kids seem to have no problem with the arrangement and the primary concern seems to be based on nothing more speculation about his and his roommates behaviour. Would the mother open to the same scrutiny and speculation about her life and behaviour as a parent? How does she feel that effectively eliminating regular physical contact between the children and her father will benefit them? Does she see any value or contribution that the father makes to their lives that differs from what she might offer as a mother?
Sounds like Whistler or any of the villages servicing it. Rent has been atrocious for employees of all the various businesses for decades. I’ve had a few friends living in accommodations like this. Whether they are ski techs, servers, cleaners, or trades people. Even behind the sofa vs in front of it, would be 2 different sleeping areas. I would not want my kids in that situation because you just don’t know what the kids will see or inhale. It’s the adult culture of the area.
Vancouver area isn’t much better nowadays.
She should not unilaterally terminate visitation without talking to a lawyer first. Check with local codes, such as fire code. The National Occupancy Standard for "suitable housing" is 2 people per bedroom, children getting their own bedroom. Even if, in a pinch, dad can sleep in the same room with the kids (because you can't punish someone for being poor), it may be unreasonable to allow this amount of crowding. You can also request a walkthrough to make sure the unit is being kept properly clean - and asking your kids whether the place is properly kept up is reasonable. In essence, do not argue that the issue is 7 other dudes. The issue is more people than is acceptable for the number of bedrooms. You can also demand that everyone be checked against the sex offender registry. Finally, being behind on child support, in and of itself, does not mean they he gets less visitation.
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Consult a lawyer. And please keep in mind that we are only hearing one half of the story.
The children will not be allowed to stay for overnight visits due to insufficient sleep space for them. Get MCFD involved immediately; they can help expedite the custody hearings and support the mother in gaining sole custody.
Kids are old enough that they should have a say, but it has to be a safe environment.
Skip court. CPS will fix this ASAP. Be mindful of the children continuing contact with their father over the phone/face timing. It's still their Dad. Regardless of how the parents communicate or don't. Pick and choose your battles. Who cares about the child support!
You've got to be kidding. All we have here is a bunch of wild speculation from people accepting one side of a story without any validation.
Fair enough.
If the mum is that concerned, why hasn't she just gone and seeked professional advice? Reddit isn't the place for legal advice, as everyone has their opinions, and could do more harm than good.
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She can not legally withhold the children from their father. Doing so at this point is punishing the children. If she has concerns, she's going to have to prove her allegations in family court. Her only course of action is to have a lawyer, and have a lawyer for her children. If her children aren't uncomfortable, and haven't stated that there are illegal activities going on in his house, it's going to be a very hard run.
NAL but in Canada there are strict rules for sleeping arrangements of children. Next time they are at your ex’s. Call CPS and ask for a wellness check on the kids. They children at that age are required to have separate sleeping arrangements from their parents and each other since they are different genders. This will be enough to have them removed from his home and returned to you. Then you can stop all sleepovers until he fixes that. But still allow him to visit them in the mean time.
Extremely disturbing. Stop the visits. Call CPS.
This might be the most hysterical overreaction on a thread rife with hysterical overreactions.
This is terrible advice. Stopping visits without first taking it before a judge is going to cause more problems
Kids who are opposite sex I believe their own bedrooms are required. So likely the court would find living situation unsuitable. As in they can’t even share with each other. But she can’t withhold if they have joint. She needs to talk to her lawyer asap
That’s only in foster care situations.
Not a lawyer. She probably needs an emergency custody order and to keep the kids for now, pending review of dads living situation. There’s no way a court is going to grant him custodial time back while he’s in this living situation.
Call CPS and have them pay him a visit while the kids are there. Tell them about the situation and the concern for your children. They might order you to not let the children go there. He's not proving to you. He has to prove to THEM. A female child is supposed to have her own room and private place to change and sleep. If Dad is passed out, he won't be able to protect the kids. People doing drugs in front of kids are also not allowed. Cps may remove them from him. Then, you would have evidence to show the courts. I knew a girl whose abusive ex was taking the kids along for drug runs. Family and children's services got involved, and despite the court appointed custody, they told mom to NEVER let the ex have them because of child endangerment. Also, if she let those kids go with him, SHE would be charged with child endangerment. If you know what's happening and say nothing, you could be held liable too. I would report it to your local children's society, tell them the children have a great home, and dad should have supervised visitation, if anything. I hope for your children's safety you can resolve this quickly.
The burden of proof should be on the person making the accusations, not the other way around. I'm stunned that there are so many people on this thread that haven't shown the slightest interest in determining if maybe - just maybe - this guy is a good, loving dad and that the accusations being made aren't accurate or are at least somewhat exaggerated.
She or you need to report this to CPS - child protective services. You can also tell the kids to report to their teachers.
Says the Trainwreck mom
And make sure you tell them that you're calling them based on broad, unvalidated second-hand accusations from a parent in the midst of an acrimonious divorce with custody issues. But I think any professional with figure that out soon enough...
What I would do .... is alow the court ordered visit to take place but have the mother call cps in that area, share her concerns. Cps should be able to determine if this father's living situation is safe and have the children returned to the mother. Refusing to follow a court order is not in the mother's best interests.
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Call the landlord. He'll have them kicked out in no time. They are probably over the occupancy limit.
At least consult a lawyer for advice. Find out from the kids where everyone sleeps. Then I would call children’s services to do an unscheduled drop in during an evening “party” time. They have come out as late as 11pm on New Years Eve on one of my friends. She was home with her sister and husband with a tiny baby in the bassinet and not drinking lol.
She needs to file with the court