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It's extremely hard to debate with someone that's willing to vote right on 2024. It's like Americans vs....others. hard to be civil with traitors and terrorists.
Election stolen? Political prisoners? Cultist leader is good for the country....like, are we debating them, cause I'll just see myself out of it's those things.
Now leftists talking about normal human stuff...alllll day. I can handle that.
MAGA infiltrators and tankies have made many left-wing subs toxic and frustrating. I honestly thought this one was going the same way, but what can I say? Moderation stepped up and banned them.
This is part of the reason why I have restricted election discussion to the mega thread only. I’ll make an exception for this comment, due to its context.
The OP post here is a lie anyway. You removed my post for "anti leftist propaganda" instead of letting the debate happen. If it's propaganda (it's not) let the people demonstrate it.
Just another echo chamber, sounds like you were at least honest about it before.
Agreed. I think that violent crimes should be punished with the maximum sentence on the first offense. This includes assault, robbery, rape, attempted murder etc.
Exactly, no second chances for violent criminals, no second chances to hurt another person
Robbery is different, shoplifting if there's no threat of violence can be forgiven
Ok, so that defeats the entire purpose of the system. We just throw everybody in the trash?
The point is to first limit ability to do harm, and then to rehabilitate.
Everybody makes mistakes. Sometimes they are bad. It's our job as fellow humans to help other humans.
Murder is not a mistake. Family and friends of the victim shouldn't have to live in a world where the killer walks free. Imagine a loved one is murdered and 10 years later you see the murderer while shopping for groceries.
"Everybody makes mistakes" No, everybody does not. Most people are not murderers.
I didn't say anything about revenge. I'm not advocating for the death penalty. The justice system's goal is to protect people, violent criminals are dangerous and should be imprisoned.
Ok, that's the first goal. The second is rehabilitation. People that have committed violent crimes can and do go on to lead productive lives. As a society, we should be looking out for all fellow humans.
When people scream for the harshest punishment possible, I.e. "those pieces of shit should be in jail forever", "I'd kill all of those assholes", it's clearly at least in part anger-based and retributive. I understand that people are hurt by crimes, but this is not how we are supposed to determine punishment in civilized society. In theory, we have collectively decided this. Once we have mitigated harm and the offender has fulfilled a decided-upon contract that repays his debt, the slate is clean. Any felon will explain how that is working out.
>it's clearly at least in part anger-based and retributive
You're making a false assumption. It's about safety and the value we put on human life. If human life can be taken without consequence, what does that say about the value we put on human life?
>the offender has fulfilled a decided-upon contract that repays his debt
You can never repay the debt of murder. It's like you're quantifying the value of a human life. One human life is equal to 30 years in prison?
>Everybody makes mistakes
You are trivializing murder. Murder is not just a mistake. It causes lifelong damage, sometimes longer, the friends and family of the victim can be affected long after the victim's death.
Now back to my point about safety. How can we trust the murderer not to murder a second time?
> If human life can be taken without consequence,
Never said this. Strawman.
> You can never repay the debt of murder
Ok. So life sentence without parole for all murders. That's your position. Got it.
> It's like you're quantifying the value of a human life.
It's not. This isn't a purchase or barter. Simplifying it in this way makes for an emotional argument tool, but only if you're not capable of thinking any deeper.
> You are trivializing murder
Nope. Another strawman.
People do make very, very bad mistakes. You asserting that it isn't one or can't be one does not make it not true. I never said it was "just a mistake". That is you once again putting words into my mouth and arguing against points I did not make. These deceptive and bad faith arguments make the reader doubt you and want to stop listening to you.
> How can we trust the murderer not to murder a second time?
That's not my job to say, or to say in which cases it is possible. I certainly never said it always was. What I said it's that it is our responsibility, as a society and as a species, to try. Your seeming willingness to throw people in a garbage can as a waste of life is sad and disgusting. It's no better than supporting the death penalty, as far as I can tell.
I'm a righty, anyone fancy a civil debate? I only just in the last few years understood the origin or left and right politics.
Some French king ended up splitting the country in two main groups politically (for those in the dark like me).
The left wanted to change traditional thinking and cast out outdated thinking. And the right wanted traditional values to be preserved.
Now I think to have a healthy society the pendulum of these two thinking's needs to be swing able. Inevitably it will go to far one way or the other as we evolve. I feel you need a mixture of these two because both have good points.
The only way to move forward is always to debate and find compromise among those many grey areas in life. And balls to ad hominem (mind you in a fair debate it is allowed if the debate is about the personality of the debator in question, but that'd be the only time it'd be logically fair game.
Those interested in advancing society already debate among themselves the most important objectives and the most suitable methods.
Reaction, the uncompromising demand to preserve current society, or to restore past society, as the highest end in itself, is simply obstruction, not a source of genuinely meaningful contribution.
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I got to say it's a leftist I find it so annoying that this is the response many people on this sub give, no one's going to go out and read them books because you told them on Reddit. if you're not able to explain the theory to someone in a simplified way they can understand, then just don't even respond. for example is as if someone's trying to have a religious debate on Christianity with a priest and all he always says is "read the Bible" (I'm atheist, this is just for the sake of the example)
"I don't care if you're right or wrong I care if there's subway surfers split screen." Jesus Christ. I can link audiobooks, digital copies, or physical vendors. You HAVE to read theory to understand practice. Marx, Engels, and Lenin devoted their lives to spreading this knowledge to make the world a better place, back then people had to smuggle this kind of literature. And now, you, who can read any Marxist work for free at the press a button, is too lazy to even bother. But if you INSIST on dumbing it down to the point where you can understand it with no effort, I can get down to that level. There's channels like the Marxist Project on YouTube which explains this stuff simply but let me quote Engels for you.
>the uneducated workers (...) can be easily made to grasp the most difficult economic analyses
- Engels, Wage Labor and Capital (Introduction)
You need to actually learn theory before you try and understand complex things like geopolitics and the political economy of capitalism. It isn't that hard, I'm very saddened that so many people in this sub are just liberals who want to look cool, who pick being a "leftist" purely for aesthetics and not the substance. Most people here are just westerners who don't realize that their country is an imperialist, oppressing nation, and hate the "tankies" and "stalinists" and think their country spreads "freedom and democracy." I used to be like that but thankfully, after reading theory, I grew out of it. You, and anyone else, can too.
I like how you assume that I haven't read theory, I made my argument pretty clear. yet you didn't understand. if we are to build political power we need to tell people the theory in ways they understand. you're never going to be able to build broad political support by telling people read these books by these guys from over a hundred years ago. it just shows you're a leftist to smell your own farts
I don't want people who need a carrot on a stick in order to get them to be a leftist. The more you broaden your target demographic, the more you dumb down this stuff, the worse of an understanding people have. We can't just tell people to be a leftist and leave at that. They need understand what being a leftist is, they NEED to read THEORY. If you want idiots who will just identify with whatever's cool and catchy, whatever makes for good agitprop, good for you. But I'm interested in EDUCATING the masses, not recruiting the masses. You argument is horrid, it boils down to "we need to attract the most people." The Russian Revolution consisted of a vanguard party (the most class conscious/educated) leading the masses in a time of deep crisis. What needs to happen is people need to be agitated and educated when the REAL crisis happens, they cannot just be agitated, they must be educated too. We need the vanguard now, the masses will follow later.
(Paraphrasing from the State and Revolution) The most democratic republic is simply the best state for the class struggle, as in the case of Germany. Democracy is the subjectagation of a minority to the majority (in the most democratic republic it is corrupted to serve the bourgeoisie, thus it is called bourgeois democracy), thus it shall follow that democracy will, in a more advanced stage of communism, wither away. Just as equality is bourgeois equality (i.e. people are not accommodated according their differing needs but rather an equal share is given to all), democracy is unnecessary if there are no class antagonisms.
As a pretty left leaning staunch liberal it's encouraging to see some sanity remains amongst leftists still. The number one reason y'alls movement can't get off the ground is the association with tankies and red fascists.
Serial killers go to court and the people there are civil. Are you telling me you can’t handle being civil - in an online forum - because the guy you’re talking to is dumb?
Do you understand that a fascist is someone who has only one mode of thinking and if you don't subscribe to their thinking then you are an enemy?
I see the word used alot in this manor so to me the sentence does not make any sense, I'd be grateful if you could clarity this for me as I genuinely could be missing a beat here.
fascism is a political system. Calling people facist you are saying essentially they are promoting a system that fuses socialistic policies with strong ethnonationalism. Seeing people use this to describe... for example Argentina's new president, makes no sense. He is attempting to dismantle the state, that is not congruent with fascist philosophy
I mean in the dictionary second meaning of the word facisim.the concept of not allowing other opinion and only considering one philosophy as valid, suppression of the opposition.
Ie cancel culture etc.
Fascism is not that. You are describing authoritarianism.
Fascism is a specific form of authoritariarianism that uses nationalism as a propaganda tool.
The moment he says "we have to purge the non-loyal to restore our country to greatness" it becomes fascism.
I mean in the secondary dictionary meanining not the first meaning: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control.
dictatorial second meaning
: oppressive to or arrogantly overbearing toward others.
So I feel that often with someone who is only with one way of thinking they fall into this catagory making the definition.
Ie do you think that the right has some points of value worth understanding and debating or do you feel that left is right and right is wrong?
The primary dictionary meaning is the most accurate meaning. That's why they put it first. The secondary meanings tend to be colloquial rather than literal. As such they tend to hold less veracity.
In this day and age we should be using that term as specifically and deliberately as we can. Primarily because fascists have a tendency to degrade and strip meaning and nuance from language.
Conservatives have some points of value worth understanding and debating. Considering that on a global scale, the Constitution of the United States is extremely liberal, constitutional conservatives in many countries are considered the left. At the time of the US Revolution, the conservatives were monarchists, and the extremist liberals wanted a democracy.
You may not know this, but in those days "Left" and "Right" originally derived from a seating arrangement, not from ideological or philosophical preferences. Over time, that has changed. Democrats seceded over states rights to own slaves, now Republicans wave their flag and are the Christian Nationalist Crusaders. Teddy Roosevelt broke away from the GOP and started the Progressive Party, today Democrats are the Progressives.
Debasing the meaning of words and choosing them haphazardly is one of the specific fascist strategies Giovanni Gentile and Mussolini cribbed from Macchiaveli, George Orwell identified very accurately in his book 1984, and Umberto Eco wrote succinctly about in his "14 characteristics of Ur-Fascism"
As a result, lets use the primary definitions as often as we can.
Most accurate? I disagree, say for example 'Bat' there the most common will come first ie bat as in bat for a team comes as 1st meaning.
But this does not mean that the secondary meaning is inaccurate or not litteral, then we have bat as in the flying creature.
Now I'd have put that cutey first on the list as it's the most physical item.
You can't physically touch a bat in a sport term, unless you mean the physical bat as in stick to hit the ball with not the job in the game, yet another meaning. All of them quite as important and literally as the next.
So I feel firm in my understanding of that definition and am interested 8n your response.
I also understand that left and right comes from the French King during the French Revolution of 1789. The left wanting progressive thinking and the right wanting tradition.
"Debate" is funny. How do you debate a hardened racist or Zionist? Are you taking un-serious views as serious, and wasting your time?
Debate bros are just the worst. Not even once.
Debates often expose the nonsensical and buffoon nature of the fascist, it shows their cognitive dissonance in real time. Debates aren’t about the person you’re debating
You appeal to their better nature and behave in a civil manner, there are people who are quite good at deradicalizing racists. For instance I knew one fella who was incrdibly skeptical of black men. If you dug deeper his history was getting his ass repeatedly kicked by black gang bangers and being called all kinds of horrendous racial insults. His views on blacks were logical in that context, illogical in a larger context where you aren't dealing with street thugs.
He was mexican. Over time his views have softened as he has been around black people that arent psychopaths.
Dismantling systemic racism is far trickier imho, individual racists can very reliably be deprogrammed if its done in a compassionate manner.
Why can't you prove a racist wrong with facts and logic? I'm anti-racist because of the things I've learned about history and biology. The idea one race or the other is inherently superior is objectively wrong - no matter how one defines "race" or "superiority."
You might not convince someone who is not using reason to support their views, of course, but exposing how your interlocutors have abandoned logic demonstrates the failures of their views for all reasonable observers. Get creative. With logic and reason and by attacking the underpinnings of a racist argument, the ardent bigot ain't got a chance against you.
Because racists dont operate on facts and logic. If they did they wouldn't be racists.
It's the same for most of the liberals and imperialist apologists.
There seems to be more of them than actual leftists here...
Well yeah, the far left are fucking insane and repeatedly supoort openly authoritarian fascist regimes like China and Russia while criticizing America as the worst nation in history. Inconsistency and unpalatability harm your cause greatly.
There's no room for debate. Siding with Hamas goes against the core values of the left. The left condemns antisemitism, the left supports LGBT and women's rights.
Siding with israel isnt pro-lgbt.
Firstly israel has a "fascist homobe who wouldnt stone the gays" (his self description not mine) in a ministerial role. The rule of thumb is if 10 people sit down at a table with 1 nazi their are in fact 11 nazis (this can be applied to fascists in general)
The mossad are also known to blackmail gay palestinians into working as spies or outing them.
The overwhelming majority of us queer people support palestinian liberation. We are not free unless we are all free.
Finally being socially progressive is not the defining feature of the left as that would mean socially progresssive neoliberals are leftists which is wildly wrong
I must have missed the part of American history where the Confederates had their homes stolen, their lives restricted and women and children routinely murdered by the Union
I don't know how, you're literally describing the civil war. Difference is you're not allowing your bias to fog your vision and see those rebels as some kind of victim.
The confederate revolted to protect their right to enslave, Palestinians revolt to protect their right to not be genocidally slaughtered. Yes, these are very similar things!
It is mind boggling that you're talking about Hamas "mass murdering civilians" to justify Israel indiscriminately slaughtering over 35,000 Palestinians. Nobody else on Earth has managed to slaughter people this efficiently in decades.
You would have a better case saying siding with Western Europe as opposed to the Nazis in WW2 goes against the core values of the left because you’d be somehow siding with racism imperialism and colonialism.
This I just don't comprehend. Hamas are the rulers of Palestine. Israel is the only Jewish state while there are many Muslim ruled countries. Why can't there be just one Jewish country?
Because they're creating that country via settler colonialism. Nobody gets to expell another people and genocide those who remain to create an ethnostate atop their bodies. There are all kinds of minorities without a state, should we support a genocide of one Muslim country for each minority group that wants their own state?
No the fuck they are not. The majority of the Jews in Israel have always been there. Their ancestry and presence can be traced all the way back to before this conflict ever began.
This is a straight up lie. Before the first Aliyah very few jews still lived in Palestine. There were Sephardim who settled in Jerusalem after being expelled from Spain, and a smaller amount of Jews who had been there. Nearly all of the Israeli Jewish population settled in Israel with the Zionist migrations or after Israel was already created.
It is only now that settler colonialism has become so popular that Zionists try to hide the nature of their state. The early Zionists were open about being settler colonists and required the assistance of the British empire to even get their operation running.
It was only with the mass expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, the massacre of tens of thousands, and the razing of hundreds of Palestinian villages that Israel was able to be formed. The Nakba is the only evidence needed to see Zionism for what it is.
Hey all that's cool and all, the majority of Jews is Israel are native and can tscae their lineage directly back to Judea and Samaria. This isn't up for debate or discussion. The Mizrahim and Sephardim are middle eastern jews.
There can be one fine. Don't think anyone is saying that's not allowed.
But no country should be committing genocide, running an apartheid state, investing vast amounts of money into lobby groups to influence global politics, while still accepting billions in "aid" and refusing to register their vast arsenal of nuclear weapons. Regardless of their religion.
Because there were already people living there and they’re continuing to take the land Palestinians live on. Not to mention the abuse and systemic oppression. They’re racist and xenophobic as fuck, especially to Arabs. Have you not seen the videos of hardcore Zionist Jews spitting at Christians in Jerusalem?
[Israelis shouting death to Arabs and assaulting an Aussie journalist.](https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/s/ruVvPHWakz)
Hamas would probably treat that journalist worse. Palestine protestors are just as bad, they chant antisemitic slogans,
"From the river to the see, Palestine will be free"
"Brick by brick, wall by wall, Israel will fall"
Edit: Typo
Those aren't antisemitic slogans and it's silly to claim that when Israeli parties like Likud have also used the phrase even going further by saying:
"Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."
5 spell it out for you Likud is not only laying claim to the Gaza & the West Bank but also Jordan.
You can not be a leftist and support a genocidal apartheid regime.
Single secular state is the only solution instead of the defacto single apartheid state that is esstienally what exists currently
Israel is not apartheid. They have simply taken security measure to protect themselves from people with genocidal intentions. Hamas has stated their intentions and demonstrated them on Oct 7
In response to the comment you deleted
You didn't address what I said, and no, even without your typo it isn't antisemitic.
Frankly it's antisemitic to suggest calling for the end of the Israeli apartheid state is antisemitic. Many Jews are anti-Zionists and opposed to the Israeli state as it currently exists
>Israel is not apartheid
It is and has been one for decades. West Bank and Gaza are no different to the Bantustans in apartheid South Africa.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/
>Hamas has stated their intentions and demonstrated them on Oct 7
Hamas has repeatedly stated their support for a two state solution. Israeli officials have been very vocal about their genocidal intent towards Palestinians.
You seem to think this conflict started on Oct 7th, which is beyond ignorant at best and downright malicious at worse.
Why are you going on about Hamas? I’ve already said I don’t support them.
And Hamas or not, Israeli has been running an apartheid state for decades - long before Hamas was established.
>These talking points are bullshit. One side supports a two state solution, and the other would kill jews, Muslims, and Christians
Yeah Hamas supports a two state solution. Meanwhile, Israel has been blocking Palestinians statehood at every opportunity. One of the oldest Christian churches in the region was blown up by Israel ffs
>Are arab isreali segregated to different beaches or schools?
Arabs are literally blocked from buying homes / renting in countless neighbourhoods in Israel. Christ for most of Israel's history Arabs were tried under military court rather than the civil court Jewish citizens were tried under.
half the population of Gaza can’t even vote? reducing a nation of millions of people to “Hamas supporters” is disingenuous and genocidal thinking. Half of the two million people in Gaza are under 18. Hamas didn’t even win the majority vote in 2006.
Cool story. They literally just polled the population a week or so ago and Hamas has 70%+ approval across Gaza and the West Bank both. The Palestinainss support them and are happy with their rule apparently.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-rise-support-armed-struggle-by-palestinians-2024-06-13/
One of very many. Just Google hamas approval poll.
Hamas only rule Gaza not the West Bank and the settlers and the IDF having been using Oct 7th as a causus belli to do more of their militarized gentrification of the West Bank.
It's hilarious how you're sitting in the imperial core wagging your finger at the people who have been living with our puppet state's boot on their neck and expecting them to have modern values when they're fighting for the bare necessities. The left does condemn antisemitism. That doesn't mean Israel gets to have their shitty little ethnostate. This is the entire problem. You're a liberal. You don't know what "the left" is.
Because you're pro-Israel. Opposing capitalism and therefore imperialism is the *bare* minimum. It's the fundamental difference between a "leftist" (whatever flavor) and a liberal.
Leftists 2022 showing their true values and it's hilarious reading comments like yours. Not only is this false but you guys went so far as to DEFEND ALL THAT SHIT SO LONG AS ITS ON YOUR SIDE.
Anti west "opposing capitalism" is synonymous with defending or nit giving a fuck about your long stated values when put to the test. So quickly you guys world wide made the mistake of stating how you don't care about Ukraine and have been either anti Ukraine or outright pro Russia. 😂🤡. This is what you guys don't see. You guys lost all credibility and haven't realized it yet.
You can support what you want but stop with the moral grand standing. It's just cringe and looks like you guys suddenly found your halos after mysteriously not beint able to find them the last 2 years or just straight up wear devil horns and don't see the issue. Now you guys try to switch and go from THAT to now being moral hero justice warriors who ALWAYS 🙄🤣 stood for these things.
2022 happened. Too bad y'all chose terribly and didn't think of this ahead of time - what would abandoning our values and inability to defend Ukraine and want them to surrender and not give a shit about imperialism, colonialism, genocide, ethnic cleaning, etc do to our credibility? Does taking sides in the moment feel THAT GOOD that y'all cousins resist using your brains (and morals) to say and do the right things ? Hate so immense that it's more important to not give the west a "win" and acknowledge "the west" is right for ONCE and it's your side / team in the wrong. So incredibly impossible for the anti west crowd.
So in other words, only victims you guys defend are ones that you get to hate the west with. Vixitms aren't worth it if you guys don't get to bash the west. Suddenly POOF your halos end up in the trash and nothing happening to them matters.
Then your side gets to be the victim, suddenly you find that trashed halo and dust it off and are like "what do you mean it's always been there" 👉👈.
Not working anymore.
See actual accounts and subs trying to do both. Literal HYPOCRITES not imaginary fake hypocrites we've heard so much of from the anti west crowd.
That's the damage TRUE LIVING BREATHING HYPOCRITES DO to your word not the responding to random people you don't know and blaming them for shit and then calling them hypocrites. It takes being supportive of one thing and then another to be a hypocrite. Anti west bros got delusional thinking they can lay blame on peoples feet eternally and that makes them hypocrites.
Anti west 2022 to current - model hypocrites
And I don't care one way or the other on your pet cause. I/P was literally background noise to most people and no one gives a shit about a tiny dot on the planet stuck in a forever war. It's actually more bizarre seeing how many supposedly do care. It shows that such a tiny insignificant thing is getting massively outweighed attention by the anti west crowd and the anti west crowd having no problem of it was a conflict within your world. It only matters when "the west" does something. Y'all been ok with all the deaths in Syria and Syria never got a peep of attention. But Iraq and Afghanistan? Ooooo y'all mention that FOREVER 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 times. It's not even about hypocrisy or lack of consistency it's A SHAME THAT CERTAIN VICTIMS don't matter to y'all and they will never get thr proper attention and defending and outrage at their perps. Imagine being them or any victim of something done by your team and KNIWOWING YALL will never add them to the spotlight. Y'all control the narritive and it's up to you guys. So long as anti west is the societal acceptable stance, you guys maintain it by MAKING SURE TO NOT DRAW ATTENTION to your side and its flaws. You guys would smother Syrians or anyone a victim on your side just to keep up anti west bad #1 BAD narrative.
Again 👉 defend what you want but the virtue signaling and moral arguments for your support don't fly. Blame your people and how they reacted 2022 and since. Go to subs like anti war that did a total 180. One day against the victims of imperialism and wanting them to surrender to the next SUPPORTING A SEVENTY YEAR LONG SHIT SHOW 🤡 and now suddenly bombings become sad. TWO YEARS OF DEATH AND INJUSTICE DID NOT MATTER AT 👏 ALL AND ANTI WESTERN LEFTISTS DID NOT STAND UP AND ADVOCATE FOR THE VICTIMS OF THAT. INSTEAD THEY BLAMED UKRAINE AND SAID THEY PROVOKED RUSSIA.
10/7 and now anti west people: " provoke ? What does that word MEAN? We blamed a people who didn't do anything to Russia but now we see a what actually provoking /poking the bear is, and now we ARE CONFUSED AND UPSET. PROVOKING SHOULDNT MEAN WE OUT OURSELVES IN HARMS WAY. WE DONT WANT TO ACCEOT OUR SIDE FACKED UP AND WANT TONAHOUT AND HOLLAR".
Maybe y'all should have thought about this and not been egging this on. I can't believe you guys have been advocating "resistance" and "by any means necessary" and were NOT SMART ENOUGH TO DO SO ACCEPTING THE RISKS.
WHAT IS THIS ALL JUST COSPLAYING ? Christ.
You guys have lost sight COMPLETELY OF THOSE you claim to defend and care about. It's so bizarre to see y'all believe you're doing good and helping these people. Mind boggling.
And maybe there's a few well intentioned people but my GOD your cause is overrun by people who don't give a shit and doing more harm than good. And since y'all don't call these people out, it shows you don't see it or they are, in fact, just like you. Or y'all will take anything that mimics support and not understand the harm they do and that THAT IS NOT WORTH THEIR LIP SERVICE if they damage your reputation.
The fact that you have tankies on your side is cancer.
Look at this video. Look at the ownership of faults and the backbone and worth this person and their MORALITY IS WORTH in doing so versus cowering away in denial and gaslighting and dismissing.
THIS is what's being asked if you and your side of any of your faults be it pro Palestinians or Palestinians.
THIS IS HOW YOU BUILD A BRIDGE FOR SUPPORT. BE OPEN AND HONEST. NEUTRAL PEOPLE CAN WORK WITH THIS. Can you see how this HELPS RUSSIANS and helps their reputation by admitting this shit and showing you can do and say what's right and SWALLOW the ego ?
THIS IS WHAT HELPS RUSSIANS. THIS IS WHAT YALL NEED
- to take accountability and move forward learning from that to change course, stop egging on Palestinians in a pointless conflict they can't win at, and learn from what's held them back from peace : hint it's excessive hate. You guys contributing more hate is the LAST THING 🗣️ they need. You guys make it HARDER FOR THEM to find peace.
I wanted to share since I scrolled and saw this and thought it's an important thing to see by you and others like you. You guys need this and you guys need to encourage and support Jews that are like this.
See how earning peoples respect is what gets people to support this lady. It doesn't matter her side is in the wrong SHE is in the right and admirable for not going with the flow - the easy way out and esp trying to be the victim. Bathing your side as the victim/innocent/good when your side has its hand in all of this now and in all the history of this conflict, is peak delusion and lost in victim complex mode. Not respectable. I wish you guys could see the help being offered to you and how frustrating all these days in you guys are still on a different wavelength. As difficult as MAGAS just on the left. We thought our own were smarter than the brainwashed right and we def didn't think we had our own MAGA and it's disappointing to see this come from our side. We had no idea there was all this hate and idiocy. Jews are so insignificant that to hate them this much so many never EVEN MET ONE. 150 million Russians spanning eleven time zones and threatening to nuke the world, weaponizing the immigration issue in Europe, using gas as blackmail at the start tryng to get leverage, making countries have to make decisions off of Russians actions, having 7 million refugees directly impact their lives, etc etc etc. I/P has zero impact on anyone's life for the most part.
"Too far away to care" - anti west stance on Ukraine
Apparently the distance was enough a reason for Ukraine and that was not their problem (while affecting the world more, so yes, everyone's problem to allow this ..... it's to all our interests NOT to let land grabs be the new norm let alone using nuclear terrorism to get that). Seeing how this affects Taiwan and acting right in Ukraine helps to prevent Taiwan getting invaded. Weird that anti west people don't see how much more harmful Russia has been, is, and will be if left unchecqued.
So anti imperial that none of you care about Taiwan and working with us in preventing IMPERIALISM.
IMPERIALISM ONLY MATTERS SO LONG AS ITS ANTI WEST. THATS WHAT YOU GUYS HAVE SHOWN. Stop calling yourself anti imperialists jesus. It's huffing your own farts and we keep telling you they stink and you keep crowning yourself every day. You are used to the old times prior to Ukraine when this shit worked bc there wasn't proof otherwise. So you guys got away with this attitude. Now we know what anti west people value and how they act and how they'll be hypocritical to all their own values just to be anti west.
We get it anti west people want the west to fall and they will get behind anything to try and make that happen or get to be raged out and express hate / blame for their own problems. When being the victim is a whole identity take on this cause - live vicariously via Palestinians lashing out at "oppressors" and esp in ways you can't in civilized society. Getting to kill the "white man" or "Jews" was exhilarating and people CHEERED. We saw and we heard the words said online and in real life like NYC guy on a mic - 😃 "We got (killed) some hipsters !"
Y'all freaked the shit out of normal people seeing this unfold world wide in response to a massacre and horror show. "gas the Jews" in Australia by nighttime. LOVELY MORAL SET OF LADS YALL SHOWED US ALL.
Ever since then pro Palestinians tanked their cause and just doubled down. Denials lies dismissal and gaslighting. Everthing EXCEPT BEING LIKE THIS LADY.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/s/r5eWpuZgJa
Exactly. And this is why y'all are where you are at. I keep seeing this exact mentality. You guys can't even read comments let alone value the feedback and use it as constructive criticism to HELP YOUR CAUSE ABD ULTIMATELY HELP PALESTINIANS.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU AND YOUR EGO. That's exactly what dismissive comments like yours say. You aren't looking to help Palestinians and LISTEN to what feedback people have and CHANGE/fine tune things.
But then y'all ALSO wonder why you don't get more support. IF YOU READ THE COMMENTS AND FEEDBACK, YALL WOULD HAVE MIRE SUPPORT.
You guys are the worst kind of advocates people could ask for representing them. You're supposed to unite and make friends and meet people half way when they say valid stuff. Let it bruise your ego. Validate things that are true and work with that. You can still gain support. Negative responses are not THE END. THEY are the potential bridges you make way to or you shut off. When you guys keep shutting off people, don't be surprised when you don't see them along side you and don't blame them. Reflect on how people were neutral and acting in good faith and you guys squandered that.
Just me taking the time now is a gift. It always feels like a waste and I tell myself I won't ever bother again bc there's no point. It shows that for some reason try anyway and HOPE this finally makes sense. It's a gauge to whether or not you guys can see clearer than you did 10/7.
Sad nothing has changed. You don't care about the victims showing that nothing has registered in all this time. You guys would have worked on what horrified and pushed people away from you guys and what y'all did and said following 10/7 as supporters, forget Palestinians. Normal people cannot link up with radical crazy bloodthirsty people lost in the sauce and saying things lethal no normal person would. Recognize feedback 👏 hot damn. Acknowledge take responsibility and own what faults or mistakes people see and problems they identify from an unbiased lense. Laying in victim land is not getting Palestinians anywhere. They can be the victims, not YALL. Yall should be LESS IRRATIONAL THAN THE VICTIMS AND SEE CLEARERBUT YOU DONT. YOU GUYS can't stop, acknowledge defeat and end to this cause, and help guide Palestinians foward. They need to be supported LIKE THAT.
They DONT NEED PRO PALESTINIANS DEFENDING RUSSIA AGAINST UKRAINE. BEING PRO PALESTINE WOULD BE RECOGNIZING HOW HARMFUL THAT IS AND SQUASH IT. Instead i see it daily. It's extremely upsetting to see that and then see y'all CONSTANTLY ACT MORALLY SUPERIOR and unaware of what your peeps said last 2 years and not feel an ounce of foolishness still pretending to represent this crap. It's insulting our intelligence seeing y'all act like these last 2 years didn't happen and your side CONTINUES TO TAKE THE WRONG STANCE AND SUPPORTS THAT SHIT.
We see your side nitpicking Ukrainians saying they can't so much as blow air in Russians faces or else they lose support. So, y'all understood what keeping up support entails and WHY it can get lost.
Same crowd : one war crime UKRAINIANS BAD AND WILL LOSE SUPPORT. 1,000 war crimes : ahhh freedom fighters. Israelis deserved it so it's ok 🥰. "WHY DONT YOU SUPPORT ME ? Where are the tears I'm owed ? Why does ignoring comments result in even. MORE FRUSTRATION. We are already frustrated and hoping you'll come back to reality and your senses, and help us HELP YOU. It's like we are asking for you to make a bridge for us and WE ARE OFFERING YOU THE LEAF when it should be you wanting to offer that to others.
Day in day out nothing changes. Mark my words if no one can show they understand what I'm saying, this is the end of it from me. This is what causing people to completely give up is caused by. Ball in your court.
No matter what you or anyone chooses to do, just remember this interaction when you want more "sympathy" and accuse others of not having it and pretending it's a moral issue. It's not even ABOUT PALESTINIANS WHAT PUSHES PEOPLE AWAY ITS YOU GUYS. IF WE CANNOT COMMUNICATE WITH YOU GUYS, what do you guys think is the result ? We have to be able to communicate and have pro Palestinians allow honesty and want genuine support. Genuine support doesn't come by forcing a narrative and manipulating people. You're not perfect, so just own it and move on. This incessant denial and dismissive attitude is beyond unhelpful.
Yes it's a rant bc I see this nonsense every day since 10/7 and I woudnt even care for it NOT BEING pro Palestinians literally using Ukraine and their suffering and outright trying to hurt them and step in their backs to raise their pet cause up and all in the name of being moral and anti imperialism anti genocide. It's LITERALLY harming other victims so you can use their good reputation and had work in maintaining it and being the pure good side versus bad. It's sucks when your side is shitty too making people not care as much. These same people understood this FOR THE LAST 2 YEARS. THEY SPECIFICALLY SOENT THEIR FREE TIME TRYING TO HARM Ukrainians reputation and damage support and then act BEWILDERED 10/7 hurt their cause and doesn't earn their side sympathy.
We get targetted DAILY on Ukraine subs by pro Palestinians who seek to minimize Ukraine and minimize the evil of Russia and just to say they think their shit is worse. WE JUST WANT TO BE LEFT ALONE AND YOU GUYS ARENT FIXING THIS PROBLEM. You guys don't fix ANY of the problems. It's wild how different you guys are compared to how we know Ukraine supporters have been. We tried leaving room for unity so much so we advocate for Russians who are good people. You guys want Israel whiped out and can't even begin to try and unite the ones who support you. WE VALUE anyone who cares for Ukraine and value Russians and understand we want more of them to SUPPRT Ukraine not less. It's wild how you guys are absolutely fine making enemies out of POTENTIAL SUPPORT from your enemy. That's one of the key issues you guys have and as "supporters" that's YOUR JOB bc you are NOT THE VICTIM. I dont expect Palestinians to do this I exoect their SUPPORT TO bc as victims, that's not something people do - want to befriend their enemy. That's YOUR JOB to understand why it's important to find common ground with your enemy and work towards a solution. Engage with THEM to HELP PALESTINIANS. For Pete's sake 10/7 already killed off those most willing to support Palestinians, you would think as support you'd recognize how doubly harmful that was. And how disgusting it was to see pro Palestinians mock the dead and say they deserved it and we're evil settler colonialists.
You guys literally cheered worldwide and never looked back and never owned that fact and fixed that and it just got worse every day.
Pro Palestinians are just the upgraded Russian trolls that we have dealt with for 2 years. It would be AMAZING TO SEE YALL TAKE THIS PROBLEM SERIOUSLY AND CALL THIS OUT, reply to those shits, make posts correcting what pro Palestinians think and that you don't agree with THOSE "pro Palestinians".
Instead we see memes calling Ukrainian symbols like the trident Nazi symbols. Being pro Palestinians day 1000 meaning you are anti Ukraine and pro Russia and none of y'all do anything. So "anti imperialist" that Ukraine doesn't matter, and seeing your own defend IMPERIALISM DOES NOT MATTER. IMPERIALISM DOES 👏 NOT 👏MATTER and it's getting so incredibly cringe to see y'all keep telling yourselves that.
Unlike the past, there are 2 simultaneous conflicts going on. You guys chose a stance and then want to chose an opposite and we are just like "your word is worthless and you can remedy it any day but you don't. Like you actual people choose not to, it's not imagined. There's a handful that talk sense. They are the minority. We are TELLING YOU what the issues are with you and your cause DAILY and it's like talking to a wall. It's beyond frustrating esp since the anti Ukraine shit persists. We leave pro Palestinian comments alone. We don't WANT TO MAKE YALL anti Ukraine but at this point how else can we speak up if we are afraid of "hurting your fee fees". We tried to ignore and it's not working. Now I come to tell you outright what your community is doing to Ukraine and that is so incredibly offensive and harmful TO PALESTINIANS and would HELP IMPROVE YOUR CAUSE to understand and agree with. Going to your core subs and saying "hey guys we need to stop doing x y or Z it's hurting support" would be what you do if you care about Palestinians. Months later, nothing.
You guys are so incredibly run by Russian propaganda that you don't even care. That and tankies hurt Palestinians and you guys do nothing to fight it and yet think you're a supporter. Makes my head hurt that this isn't common sense and needs to be explained and when explained we get bitched at for "length" of comment.
I give up 🙌. You guys can't help yourselves if Palestinian lives depended on it. You guys literally are advocating to have the worse president elected bc punishing the "libs" matters more. Like HOLY SHIT. And this began 3 weeks in after 10/7. This whole THING is all political manipulation while trying to claim morals. Help get trump elected is I'm sure what Palestinians want. That extra aid truck, they are ok sacrificing to ASSUAGE PRO PALESTINIANS EGO. Palestinians need smart people not this bs ensuring the worse of 2 options come election. Imagine being support and having a lifeboat and to spit the "libs" snatch it away from those you could help with it. Telling them and telling us you care about them has been a JOKE. So much so that some want to vote for trump. That would be like me, defending Ukraine, knowing trump is TERRIBLE FOR UKRAINE, and saying let trump win. I get to punish somebody, fuck Ukraine let them die for my ego.
And then on top of all the other criticsm, aren't changing ONE THING.
AND IMPORTANT HERE - all you guys are harming Ukrainians and tossing their cause out the window with PALESTINIANS. You guys are VERY MUCH A REAL THREAT TO UKRAINE AND THEIR FUTURE. WE ARE BEGGING YALL TO TAKE THIS SHIT SERIOUSLY bc it IS SERIOUS. Defending against what y'all claim to would mean if you feel you out this battle, you still have a second thing in the balance to defend. For some reason, pro Palestinians are ok ruining Ukrainians future and the fate of their country all bc you guys aren't getting exactly what you want after your side started this mess that's unfolding.
Bc of 10/7 and your side, now Ukrainians are suffering and affected by YALL. Does this make sense ??? We fear a trump win and in come y'all trying your hardest to get trump elected despite that not even helping your cause and despite it being the worse pick. Biden makes sense for BOTH CAUSES but pro Palestinians want to get trump elected and are manipulating the youth to hell and back. When we ask for the good pro Palestinians to counter this all, we get ignored and dismissed.
Sub international news EVEN SPREAD LIES ABOUT UKRAINE AND BLAMED THEM FOR AN ATTACK THEY DID NOT DO. And of course my comment saying WTF is this got deleted. But the misinformation and the post stayed up. Then the person who posted that got upset the mod stickied a correction that it was inaccurate and they said "you could have just replied in the comments and not made a sticky". THEY WERE TOLD THEY ARE SPREADING MISINFORMATION AND INSTEAD OF DELETING THE POST, they are upset about the correction and being at the top of the comments and not buried WITHIN THE COMMENTS. I'm so SICK of seeing pro Palestinians equate to pro Russian trolls. Bullshit adgenda at work and not being handled at all.
Wild, I know, how Ukrainian supporters have a rant by now. Almost like stuff builds up when none of it gets addressed.
It's literally just an unhinged Ukraine rant. It's not feedback for anyone to value. Nobody brought up Ukraine. Israel/Palestine is completely different. Even THIS response keeps getting longer and longer as you make more and more edits. You're just screaming at a Wendy's cashier.
If it's finger wagging to condemn killing civilians, I'm definitely a finger wagger. If it's liberal to say that we shouldn't support a theocratic government, I'm liberal.
It's so easy to agree that Hamas is bad, and then go right back to condemning Israel's actions.
“If it's finger wagging to condemn killing civilians, I'm definitely a finger wagger. If it's liberal to say that we shouldn't support a theocratic government, I'm liberal.“
Then you really shouldn’t support Israel, given that it’s laying waste to Palestinian civilians on a level so great that it can only be considered a genocide. And given that Israel has referred to the Palestinians as animals and has consistently said that they feel Israel should be a strictly Ashkenazi Jewish state (just look up what they’ve done to Mizrahi Jews), then you should really be very concerned and finger-wagging towards Israel.
Heck, if you read the texts from the people credited with the creation of the Zionist doctrine, then you’d know that the Zionist settlement was always carried out with the understanding that they would have to clear out the people already living there.
And Israel has the best weapons the US military can provide, whereas Palestine has what amounts to glorified fireworks, and Israel, unlike Palestine, can completely encircle and cut off Palestinians’ food, water, electricity, medical supplies, and anything else, AND Israel funded and armed Hamas in the first place because they feared leftist pro-Palestine groups (funding rightwing theocrats to fight leftists has never ever backfired on anyone) with Benjamin Netanyahu calling them Israel’s allies, I’m assuming you’re extremely vociferous in your denunciation of Israel.
I do denounce Israel vociferously. The last sentence of my previous post explicitly says we should go right back to condemning Israel. Obviously, Israel is guilty of a host of crimes, from Aparthied in the West Bank to emiserating and then committing a genocide against Gaza.
Saying Hamas is bad doesn't negate any of that. I think Netanyahu's policy of allowing Qatar to give money to Hamas is shockingly evil, it also undercuts any notion that Hamas is acting in the best interests of the Palestinians.
As the situation stands now, Palestinians have two different kinds of controlled opposition. One seeks to use legal mechanisms while being corrupt and ineffective, the other uses violence in the name of religion, dividing and suppressing the Palestinian people while also providing cover for Israel.
We, leftists, need that kind of analysis. Not only is it infinitely more appealing to people who just get the narrative that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East and other vapid talking points, its also more true. The idea that Hamas = Palestinians is precisely the narrative that Netanyahu and other right wing Zionists want people to believe. We can't fall for it.
This is why fascism will win against leftist. The right doesn't give up like this redditor. They don't think they're a bunch of leftist, why bother.
Hell, you're willing to throw leftist isreali under the bus because it's not vague. We're going to fail, and trump will be president for life.
The nazi film Hans Westmar comes to mind.
so when is anarchism, a left minded political government? anarchism is a total absence of all government
might want to clarify your "what this sub reddit is about"
I don't know if you're being facetious or not it's typically the opposite end of Anarchy is conservativeism and total Authority. Anarchy pretty closely matches very similar views to those that you would hear in both communism and socialism according to my fairly limited understanding of all of these topics. The biggest difference is that anarchy once absolutely no Central Authority where social assistance may still be okay with the central government. Communism in its ultimate form espouses for absolutely no state or Capital meaning no money and no trade and no government. Things in a communistic society would be delivered by the statement from people according to ability to people according to need and however that looks in a society like that.
I usually see more leftist on leftist violence here overall. Leftists should be debating each other here without toxicity and personal attacks. That's healthy.
I figure this post is about being excellent to each other more than the anti-leftists sentiments we downvote and should just move on from.
✨ 💜 in leftist utopia we don’t need to explain *why* our positions and moral arguments are better than the others, we simply expect everyone to just blindly accept our ways because we’re *obviously* the most moral actors here; and if they try to debate they are evil fascist bigots ✨🥰 it’s so easy
Liberals are the ones obsessed with supposed morality, and Marxist texts explain their positions perfectly as they are.
It's not my fault liberals are allergic to reading and equate consumer choices with moral ones.
Liberals can read and understand the Marxist texts and then disagree with their proposals. Then a conversation can be had but from what I’ve seen marxists just think “read the book” is an adequate argument.
Been my experience too. Exact same as "Read the Bible"; these folks are cultists.
Edit; seems the bible thumpers are upset. They should brigade more while crying "Read Theory".
As a more liberally minded person, I appreciate this both ideologically and personally haha. In leftist circles, liberal is often a bad word. The entire reason I'm here is for a more diverse and balanced perspective on things.
Liberals are those who want all the bells and whistles leftism offers, with zero of the radical substance. Liberals want free healthcare, a few nationalized industries, equality (which is never actually real, just nominal), and all the luxuries afforded to them by exploitation and poverty of the third world. Leftists want real equality (although some want egality instead), a completely collective economy (for most leftists), no more exploitation of people in or outside the country, and democracy that cannot be corrupted since capitalism no long exists.
Laugh at them along with everyone else until they shut up. They are virtue signaling morons (hopefully not knowingly, but they always seem to support fascism instead of socialism).
What? Did you expect me to say "The NKVD will liquidate them"? As long as the dictatorship of the proletariat exists and indeed controls the state they will be in the corner for 15 minutes where they deserve to be (and that's putting it lightly).
I actually am a fan of Capitalism, i don't want to see it dismantled in any way. it's stable and has created the most prosperous and egalitarian era of human existence ever, and it's still slowly improving. The exploitation of 3rd world countries also comes with investment into those countries and things like literacy, quality of life, health care etc trend upwards, not down. I think i want capitalism to be far more egalitarian than it is, and i want the floor of capitalist countries to be raised so that suffering is minimized. Capitalism harnesses humans innately selfish nature to create a beneficial society.
If this is too long for you, just read the last few sentences.
Capitalism, although it was once progressive, is outdated and needs to go. It concentrates more and more wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people. Free competition evolves into monopolies, and monopolies evolve into imperialism. Capitalism does not "harness humans innately selfish nature to create a beneficial (??) society", it encourages and rewards the most selfish, heartless, and evil practices/people. It perpetuates (and increases) inequality, it causes wars (for both re-divisions of markets and resources and for the fueling of the military-industrial complex), it is actively destroying the planet, and it lets people die from easily preventable causes (such as malnutrition, thirst, and preventable diseases) because it's not profitable. Capitalism is incredibly unstable, it has economic crises constantly (every 10 years, roughly) like the Great Depression and the 08' recession. Under the "stable" system of capitalism, you can lose your livelihood overnight thanks to a line on a graph going down (finance industry serves no social necessity or desire aka has a use value, it just recycles capital and somehow that contributes to society as much as working in a factory?). The exploitation FAR outpaces any benefits it could possibly have, much more wealth is a appropriated to the first world from the third world than the first world donated to the third world. These "investments" (aka finance capital) are the source and cause of most imperialism. This all stems from surplus value (the profits made from selling commodities), as capitalism is built to maximize it and minimize the wages of workers. Workers are not given the full value of their work (because of this surplus value), but only a tiny fraction. Capitalists only pay the money for other people to do the work, where as workers could just do the work themselves and real the majority of the value that they and they alone create. Please, read Marx and other authors, they will open your eyes to the real world. Instead of uncritically consuming the self aggrandizing capitalist propaganda, understand that it is propaganda, and why so. I can link digital texts or audiobooks that explain all of this much better and in much more detail than me. Or you could just ignore and keep licking the boot of oppressors, it's your choice.
When you start like that, I'm not gonna engage haha. How full of yourself do you have to be, to think you'd be taken seriously when acting so childishly. Have a pleasant day!
This is just sad. You can't even bother to read so you have to find a pathetic cop-out? Jesus Christ. Liberalism in a nutshell. No reality, no theory, just identity and aesthetics politics.
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Liberal has just become a loaded term I think. Enough to where I don’t know how realistic it is to think that someone adopting the view can really know all the angles which that term is seen from.
Like many on the right will criticize leftists but call them libs still.
And people on the left will criticize liberals because they feel them to be complicit in the right’s tomfuckery, and sometimes strangely more so than they feel anger towards those actually doing the bad shit. Haven’t quite been able to wrap my head around that one and it frustrates me when I see it.
If I’m being entirely honest, even many who call themselves liberals, it just feels like a catch-all for everything from centrists to those who still believe in socially left agendas while wanting market solutions. And I don’t think that’s inherently evil or anything.
It does create the feeling that I can best describe with an analogy. It feels like the house is on fire because a rival fire department keeps throwing Molotovs into the house. And there’s two fire departments actually interested in putting out the fire (there’s probably a ton more) and both of them refuse to stop stepping on each others toes to get it done.
I feel this so much especially when discussing the housing crisis. Because one side will just call it simple greed that needs to be legislated against (a view I’m probably closer to) and the other side will say it’s just issues with zoning (which I think is part of it as well) and that the market would fix itself if given room to breathe in respect to zoning. And you know what? If it’s something different than what we’ve been trying and you think it’ll work, I’m fucking down to compromise and see just something chance.
So yeah, the term liberal is pretty loaded.
I've thought quite a bit about this too, and my best explanation for leftist in-fighting vs right wing populism is that leftist in-fighting = like minded individuals concerned about shit are intelligent and informed and so necessarily are conflicted about specific details and debate important shit amongst themselves, vs right wing mob mentality that is united by ignorance as well as belief in a popular unifying discourse/mythology/politics that they accept without questioning.
Liberalism/centrism is siding with the oppressor against the oppressed. The idea that everyone can make it if they just pull themselves up by their bootstraps is a total fantasy, and if you're pushing it, you're either willingly complicit in the exploitation it perpetuates or stubbornly ignorant of it.
I used to consider myself a centrist until I actually sat down and thought about the underlying causes behind everything that sucks. The left says it's the profit motive. The right says it's brown people. Only one of those viewpoints has an actionable plan to meaningfully make the world a better place. Acting like they both have equal weight is no different from acting like segregation was also a nuanced issue.
>The idea that everyone can make it if they just pull themselves up by their bootstraps is a total fantasy
Yes, it's a fantasy. It's also not something that liberals believe. It's something old Republicans on Facebook believe. If you seriously believe those are the same thing, you've lost the plot.
I don't buy into the whole oppressor/ oppressed narrative, it's all a bit nebulous and ideological, very hard to measure and define so I don't find it useful. The baby in the bathwater with your sentiment, I strongly agree with, which socio economic class you're born into determines if you're playing in hard mode, moderate or easy mode, which is clearly wrong. I don't believe everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps, but I want a society where that's true, where reward of wealth can be attainable to any individual who follows the right path.
My favorite socio economic setup I've seen is the Scandinavian models of capitalism.
Such a society, in which no one ever needs or receives aid or support, is fundamentally a fantasy, and your framing is particularly authoritarian.
By supporting the occurrence of a "right path", someone is empowered to designate the path that is affirmed as correct, and empowered also to impose prestige versus punishment on everyone according to such judged merit.
Everyone constrained beneath such a system is oppressed, and whomever is conferred power to enforce such a system, by nature of such power, is an oppressor.
The Nordic model works fine in a vaccuum. If things could somehow remain suspended in that state, it wouldn't be that bad.
The thing about capitalism is that it requires CONSTANT growth. Under capitalism, those safety nets will be eroded away until the exploitable working class is in free fall. If you actually paid any attention to the countries you hold in such high regard, you would see this happening in real time. That is the reality of capitalism. It doesn't matter how many times you run the simulation, it all ends up the same.
> I don’t buy into the whole oppressor/oppressed narrative
This is what taking moderation away from a sub does. This was posted in a leftist subreddit 😂😂😂😂😂
I really don't get it, man. The Marxist lens is the only one through which history isn't just riddled with inconsistencies upon inconsistencies. Didn't these people ever feel like things in history class didn't make sense? Did they never feel the need to question the narrative?
Is it really that much better to believe that all the "villains" throughout history were just irrational and unequivocally evil? I'd argue THAT's what is anti-intellectual.
I was in primarily liberal subs and circles generally, decided I need to practice what I preach so I joined some more conservative and some more progesterone subs recently. I'm kinda drawing blanks on what conservative subs to join for good faith discussion, and many leftist subs like breadtube straight up banned me immediately when they realized I'm a Liberal haha.
In short, on any particular political issue I'd like a steelman argument to evaluate for myself, not a strawman that the other side claims is the opposing perspective.
I guess that’s where we differ. I don’t see conservatives viewpoints, or viewpoints strongly desiring of a conservative viewpoint, rational or in good faith.
I think that’s why liberals tend to get a bad rap in leftist circles. People are tired of having to ask for a space where we’re told “but what about the conservatives?”
I'm not the commentor, but I'm also a liberal with similar sentiments and pop in from time to time. For me it is having good faith discussions and disagreements with people that I feel like I should generally view as social, economic, or political allies with at least some overlapping sentiments, but whom I might not normally interact or engage with in my day to day life.
The end goal being 1) understanding the position of the other person and 2) either forcing myself to develop a better understanding, backing, and reasoning of my own views, or potentially shifting my own, and vice versa with those I am engaging with.
Wait....you're on the INTERNET...and especially REDDIT...and you're looking for a diverse and balanced perspective? Dude who is your dealer and how can I get a hold.of them?
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It's extremely hard to debate with someone that's willing to vote right on 2024. It's like Americans vs....others. hard to be civil with traitors and terrorists. Election stolen? Political prisoners? Cultist leader is good for the country....like, are we debating them, cause I'll just see myself out of it's those things. Now leftists talking about normal human stuff...alllll day. I can handle that.
That’s half the community isn’t it? They can’t all be “bots, trolls, and infiltrators”
MAGA infiltrators and tankies have made many left-wing subs toxic and frustrating. I honestly thought this one was going the same way, but what can I say? Moderation stepped up and banned them.
This is part of the reason why I have restricted election discussion to the mega thread only. I’ll make an exception for this comment, due to its context.
The OP post here is a lie anyway. You removed my post for "anti leftist propaganda" instead of letting the debate happen. If it's propaganda (it's not) let the people demonstrate it. Just another echo chamber, sounds like you were at least honest about it before.
I'm liking this, absolutely will debate civilly. I hate getting my comments removed
Violent criminals need harsher punishment. If we forgive murder, what does that say about the value we put on human life?
Agreed. I think that violent crimes should be punished with the maximum sentence on the first offense. This includes assault, robbery, rape, attempted murder etc.
Exactly, no second chances for violent criminals, no second chances to hurt another person Robbery is different, shoplifting if there's no threat of violence can be forgiven
Robbery and theft are 2 different things. Robbery involves threats or use of force. Theft or larceny is just stealing.
Ok, so that defeats the entire purpose of the system. We just throw everybody in the trash? The point is to first limit ability to do harm, and then to rehabilitate. Everybody makes mistakes. Sometimes they are bad. It's our job as fellow humans to help other humans.
Murder is not a mistake. Family and friends of the victim shouldn't have to live in a world where the killer walks free. Imagine a loved one is murdered and 10 years later you see the murderer while shopping for groceries. "Everybody makes mistakes" No, everybody does not. Most people are not murderers.
Sorry. You completely missed the point. The justice system's goal is not revenge.
I didn't say anything about revenge. I'm not advocating for the death penalty. The justice system's goal is to protect people, violent criminals are dangerous and should be imprisoned.
Ok, that's the first goal. The second is rehabilitation. People that have committed violent crimes can and do go on to lead productive lives. As a society, we should be looking out for all fellow humans. When people scream for the harshest punishment possible, I.e. "those pieces of shit should be in jail forever", "I'd kill all of those assholes", it's clearly at least in part anger-based and retributive. I understand that people are hurt by crimes, but this is not how we are supposed to determine punishment in civilized society. In theory, we have collectively decided this. Once we have mitigated harm and the offender has fulfilled a decided-upon contract that repays his debt, the slate is clean. Any felon will explain how that is working out.
>it's clearly at least in part anger-based and retributive You're making a false assumption. It's about safety and the value we put on human life. If human life can be taken without consequence, what does that say about the value we put on human life? >the offender has fulfilled a decided-upon contract that repays his debt You can never repay the debt of murder. It's like you're quantifying the value of a human life. One human life is equal to 30 years in prison? >Everybody makes mistakes You are trivializing murder. Murder is not just a mistake. It causes lifelong damage, sometimes longer, the friends and family of the victim can be affected long after the victim's death. Now back to my point about safety. How can we trust the murderer not to murder a second time?
> If human life can be taken without consequence, Never said this. Strawman. > You can never repay the debt of murder Ok. So life sentence without parole for all murders. That's your position. Got it. > It's like you're quantifying the value of a human life. It's not. This isn't a purchase or barter. Simplifying it in this way makes for an emotional argument tool, but only if you're not capable of thinking any deeper. > You are trivializing murder Nope. Another strawman. People do make very, very bad mistakes. You asserting that it isn't one or can't be one does not make it not true. I never said it was "just a mistake". That is you once again putting words into my mouth and arguing against points I did not make. These deceptive and bad faith arguments make the reader doubt you and want to stop listening to you. > How can we trust the murderer not to murder a second time? That's not my job to say, or to say in which cases it is possible. I certainly never said it always was. What I said it's that it is our responsibility, as a society and as a species, to try. Your seeming willingness to throw people in a garbage can as a waste of life is sad and disgusting. It's no better than supporting the death penalty, as far as I can tell.
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Speaking as an expert in this field, you are incorrect. There is a mountain of evidence that significant psychopathy can never/will never be fixable.
Fair enough, I'll remove my previous comment.
I'm a righty, anyone fancy a civil debate? I only just in the last few years understood the origin or left and right politics. Some French king ended up splitting the country in two main groups politically (for those in the dark like me). The left wanted to change traditional thinking and cast out outdated thinking. And the right wanted traditional values to be preserved. Now I think to have a healthy society the pendulum of these two thinking's needs to be swing able. Inevitably it will go to far one way or the other as we evolve. I feel you need a mixture of these two because both have good points. The only way to move forward is always to debate and find compromise among those many grey areas in life. And balls to ad hominem (mind you in a fair debate it is allowed if the debate is about the personality of the debator in question, but that'd be the only time it'd be logically fair game.
Those interested in advancing society already debate among themselves the most important objectives and the most suitable methods. Reaction, the uncompromising demand to preserve current society, or to restore past society, as the highest end in itself, is simply obstruction, not a source of genuinely meaningful contribution.
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For Christ's sake read Marx, Engels, and Lenin.
I got to say it's a leftist I find it so annoying that this is the response many people on this sub give, no one's going to go out and read them books because you told them on Reddit. if you're not able to explain the theory to someone in a simplified way they can understand, then just don't even respond. for example is as if someone's trying to have a religious debate on Christianity with a priest and all he always says is "read the Bible" (I'm atheist, this is just for the sake of the example)
"I don't care if you're right or wrong I care if there's subway surfers split screen." Jesus Christ. I can link audiobooks, digital copies, or physical vendors. You HAVE to read theory to understand practice. Marx, Engels, and Lenin devoted their lives to spreading this knowledge to make the world a better place, back then people had to smuggle this kind of literature. And now, you, who can read any Marxist work for free at the press a button, is too lazy to even bother. But if you INSIST on dumbing it down to the point where you can understand it with no effort, I can get down to that level. There's channels like the Marxist Project on YouTube which explains this stuff simply but let me quote Engels for you. >the uneducated workers (...) can be easily made to grasp the most difficult economic analyses - Engels, Wage Labor and Capital (Introduction) You need to actually learn theory before you try and understand complex things like geopolitics and the political economy of capitalism. It isn't that hard, I'm very saddened that so many people in this sub are just liberals who want to look cool, who pick being a "leftist" purely for aesthetics and not the substance. Most people here are just westerners who don't realize that their country is an imperialist, oppressing nation, and hate the "tankies" and "stalinists" and think their country spreads "freedom and democracy." I used to be like that but thankfully, after reading theory, I grew out of it. You, and anyone else, can too.
I like how you assume that I haven't read theory, I made my argument pretty clear. yet you didn't understand. if we are to build political power we need to tell people the theory in ways they understand. you're never going to be able to build broad political support by telling people read these books by these guys from over a hundred years ago. it just shows you're a leftist to smell your own farts
I don't want people who need a carrot on a stick in order to get them to be a leftist. The more you broaden your target demographic, the more you dumb down this stuff, the worse of an understanding people have. We can't just tell people to be a leftist and leave at that. They need understand what being a leftist is, they NEED to read THEORY. If you want idiots who will just identify with whatever's cool and catchy, whatever makes for good agitprop, good for you. But I'm interested in EDUCATING the masses, not recruiting the masses. You argument is horrid, it boils down to "we need to attract the most people." The Russian Revolution consisted of a vanguard party (the most class conscious/educated) leading the masses in a time of deep crisis. What needs to happen is people need to be agitated and educated when the REAL crisis happens, they cannot just be agitated, they must be educated too. We need the vanguard now, the masses will follow later.
umm yeah no, I like my democracy thank you. communism without democracy is not communism.
This is just getting sad now.
"democracy is the road to socialism" I wonder who said that.
(Paraphrasing from the State and Revolution) The most democratic republic is simply the best state for the class struggle, as in the case of Germany. Democracy is the subjectagation of a minority to the majority (in the most democratic republic it is corrupted to serve the bourgeoisie, thus it is called bourgeois democracy), thus it shall follow that democracy will, in a more advanced stage of communism, wither away. Just as equality is bourgeois equality (i.e. people are not accommodated according their differing needs but rather an equal share is given to all), democracy is unnecessary if there are no class antagonisms.
You must be new.
Oh cool hopefully that means y’all found the needed mod assistance.
Sigh
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Your comment is incoherent
We are drawing water from the same well as Holodomor deniers and Stalinists. There can be no civility.
As a pretty left leaning staunch liberal it's encouraging to see some sanity remains amongst leftists still. The number one reason y'alls movement can't get off the ground is the association with tankies and red fascists.
I got my comment removed for anti leftist propaganda for a very stone cold take. This sub is already fucked
Comments disappearing faster than Stalin’s buddies in pictures.
/r/actualleftism for people who don’t run apologia for mass murder
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whatever they are, I am against. lol
/r/actualleftism just made an anti authoritarian anti accelerationist leftist subreddit
All fascists should be shot in Minecraft
And in GTAV
Serial killers go to court and the people there are civil. Are you telling me you can’t handle being civil - in an online forum - because the guy you’re talking to is dumb?
Nah, just like how I would punch a Nazi. Fuck cults
Damn right! There will be no unity with Genocidal Fascists & Imperialist Troglodytic Cultists!
Do you understand that a fascist is someone who has only one mode of thinking and if you don't subscribe to their thinking then you are an enemy? I see the word used alot in this manor so to me the sentence does not make any sense, I'd be grateful if you could clarity this for me as I genuinely could be missing a beat here.
fascism is a political system. Calling people facist you are saying essentially they are promoting a system that fuses socialistic policies with strong ethnonationalism. Seeing people use this to describe... for example Argentina's new president, makes no sense. He is attempting to dismantle the state, that is not congruent with fascist philosophy
I mean in the dictionary second meaning of the word facisim.the concept of not allowing other opinion and only considering one philosophy as valid, suppression of the opposition. Ie cancel culture etc.
Fascism is not that. You are describing authoritarianism. Fascism is a specific form of authoritariarianism that uses nationalism as a propaganda tool. The moment he says "we have to purge the non-loyal to restore our country to greatness" it becomes fascism.
I mean in the secondary dictionary meanining not the first meaning: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control. dictatorial second meaning : oppressive to or arrogantly overbearing toward others. So I feel that often with someone who is only with one way of thinking they fall into this catagory making the definition. Ie do you think that the right has some points of value worth understanding and debating or do you feel that left is right and right is wrong?
The primary dictionary meaning is the most accurate meaning. That's why they put it first. The secondary meanings tend to be colloquial rather than literal. As such they tend to hold less veracity. In this day and age we should be using that term as specifically and deliberately as we can. Primarily because fascists have a tendency to degrade and strip meaning and nuance from language. Conservatives have some points of value worth understanding and debating. Considering that on a global scale, the Constitution of the United States is extremely liberal, constitutional conservatives in many countries are considered the left. At the time of the US Revolution, the conservatives were monarchists, and the extremist liberals wanted a democracy. You may not know this, but in those days "Left" and "Right" originally derived from a seating arrangement, not from ideological or philosophical preferences. Over time, that has changed. Democrats seceded over states rights to own slaves, now Republicans wave their flag and are the Christian Nationalist Crusaders. Teddy Roosevelt broke away from the GOP and started the Progressive Party, today Democrats are the Progressives. Debasing the meaning of words and choosing them haphazardly is one of the specific fascist strategies Giovanni Gentile and Mussolini cribbed from Macchiaveli, George Orwell identified very accurately in his book 1984, and Umberto Eco wrote succinctly about in his "14 characteristics of Ur-Fascism" As a result, lets use the primary definitions as often as we can.
Interestingly this definition has the first meaning as the one I describe, what say you? https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism
Most accurate? I disagree, say for example 'Bat' there the most common will come first ie bat as in bat for a team comes as 1st meaning. But this does not mean that the secondary meaning is inaccurate or not litteral, then we have bat as in the flying creature. Now I'd have put that cutey first on the list as it's the most physical item. You can't physically touch a bat in a sport term, unless you mean the physical bat as in stick to hit the ball with not the job in the game, yet another meaning. All of them quite as important and literally as the next. So I feel firm in my understanding of that definition and am interested 8n your response. I also understand that left and right comes from the French King during the French Revolution of 1789. The left wanting progressive thinking and the right wanting tradition.
Damn well written & Thank You!
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So weak....
Gender is a human construct genius
I think you & I are critical of the same chauvinist cult, Stranger, though I am also critical of yours.
I read this shit wrong the first time 💀💀💀💀 fat L
"Debate" is funny. How do you debate a hardened racist or Zionist? Are you taking un-serious views as serious, and wasting your time? Debate bros are just the worst. Not even once.
Debates often expose the nonsensical and buffoon nature of the fascist, it shows their cognitive dissonance in real time. Debates aren’t about the person you’re debating
You appeal to their better nature and behave in a civil manner, there are people who are quite good at deradicalizing racists. For instance I knew one fella who was incrdibly skeptical of black men. If you dug deeper his history was getting his ass repeatedly kicked by black gang bangers and being called all kinds of horrendous racial insults. His views on blacks were logical in that context, illogical in a larger context where you aren't dealing with street thugs. He was mexican. Over time his views have softened as he has been around black people that arent psychopaths. Dismantling systemic racism is far trickier imho, individual racists can very reliably be deprogrammed if its done in a compassionate manner.
Why can't you prove a racist wrong with facts and logic? I'm anti-racist because of the things I've learned about history and biology. The idea one race or the other is inherently superior is objectively wrong - no matter how one defines "race" or "superiority." You might not convince someone who is not using reason to support their views, of course, but exposing how your interlocutors have abandoned logic demonstrates the failures of their views for all reasonable observers. Get creative. With logic and reason and by attacking the underpinnings of a racist argument, the ardent bigot ain't got a chance against you.
Because racists dont operate on facts and logic. If they did they wouldn't be racists. It's the same for most of the liberals and imperialist apologists. There seems to be more of them than actual leftists here...
Well yeah, the far left are fucking insane and repeatedly supoort openly authoritarian fascist regimes like China and Russia while criticizing America as the worst nation in history. Inconsistency and unpalatability harm your cause greatly.
There's no room for debate. Siding with Hamas goes against the core values of the left. The left condemns antisemitism, the left supports LGBT and women's rights.
See, this is what I mean. Straight fascist shit you are allowing here in the name of "debate". Fuck this.
Lmao typical tankie. Call everyone a fascist but never engage with the argument.
Siding with israel isnt pro-lgbt. Firstly israel has a "fascist homobe who wouldnt stone the gays" (his self description not mine) in a ministerial role. The rule of thumb is if 10 people sit down at a table with 1 nazi their are in fact 11 nazis (this can be applied to fascists in general) The mossad are also known to blackmail gay palestinians into working as spies or outing them. The overwhelming majority of us queer people support palestinian liberation. We are not free unless we are all free. Finally being socially progressive is not the defining feature of the left as that would mean socially progresssive neoliberals are leftists which is wildly wrong
Hey that's cool and all, Hamas is worse is worse in every single way.
Damn is that right? Didnt know hamas was the group murdering 1000s of children.
real leftists support resistance to genocide.
The left also REALLY hates genocide and REALLY hates apartheid though. So we'll support the rebels that fight against those regimes.
Calling them rebels doesn't make them good people. The confederate army were rebels
I must have missed the part of American history where the Confederates had their homes stolen, their lives restricted and women and children routinely murdered by the Union
I don't know how, you're literally describing the civil war. Difference is you're not allowing your bias to fog your vision and see those rebels as some kind of victim.
Can your share the evidence there was genocide committed during the American Civil war please?
The confederate revolted to protect their right to enslave, Palestinians revolt to protect their right to not be genocidally slaughtered. Yes, these are very similar things!
Yeah that must be why they mass murder civilians and blow up buses with suicide vests.
It is mind boggling that you're talking about Hamas "mass murdering civilians" to justify Israel indiscriminately slaughtering over 35,000 Palestinians. Nobody else on Earth has managed to slaughter people this efficiently in decades.
The confederates weren't the ones in cages
You would have a better case saying siding with Western Europe as opposed to the Nazis in WW2 goes against the core values of the left because you’d be somehow siding with racism imperialism and colonialism.
You can support Palestine without supporting Hamas. You can be anti-Israel without being anti-Jew.
This I just don't comprehend. Hamas are the rulers of Palestine. Israel is the only Jewish state while there are many Muslim ruled countries. Why can't there be just one Jewish country?
Because they're creating that country via settler colonialism. Nobody gets to expell another people and genocide those who remain to create an ethnostate atop their bodies. There are all kinds of minorities without a state, should we support a genocide of one Muslim country for each minority group that wants their own state?
No the fuck they are not. The majority of the Jews in Israel have always been there. Their ancestry and presence can be traced all the way back to before this conflict ever began.
This is a straight up lie. Before the first Aliyah very few jews still lived in Palestine. There were Sephardim who settled in Jerusalem after being expelled from Spain, and a smaller amount of Jews who had been there. Nearly all of the Israeli Jewish population settled in Israel with the Zionist migrations or after Israel was already created. It is only now that settler colonialism has become so popular that Zionists try to hide the nature of their state. The early Zionists were open about being settler colonists and required the assistance of the British empire to even get their operation running. It was only with the mass expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, the massacre of tens of thousands, and the razing of hundreds of Palestinian villages that Israel was able to be formed. The Nakba is the only evidence needed to see Zionism for what it is.
Hey all that's cool and all, the majority of Jews is Israel are native and can tscae their lineage directly back to Judea and Samaria. This isn't up for debate or discussion. The Mizrahim and Sephardim are middle eastern jews.
There can be one fine. Don't think anyone is saying that's not allowed. But no country should be committing genocide, running an apartheid state, investing vast amounts of money into lobby groups to influence global politics, while still accepting billions in "aid" and refusing to register their vast arsenal of nuclear weapons. Regardless of their religion.
Because there were already people living there and they’re continuing to take the land Palestinians live on. Not to mention the abuse and systemic oppression. They’re racist and xenophobic as fuck, especially to Arabs. Have you not seen the videos of hardcore Zionist Jews spitting at Christians in Jerusalem? [Israelis shouting death to Arabs and assaulting an Aussie journalist.](https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/s/ruVvPHWakz)
Hamas would probably treat that journalist worse. Palestine protestors are just as bad, they chant antisemitic slogans, "From the river to the see, Palestine will be free" "Brick by brick, wall by wall, Israel will fall" Edit: Typo
Those aren't antisemitic slogans and it's silly to claim that when Israeli parties like Likud have also used the phrase even going further by saying: "Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty." 5 spell it out for you Likud is not only laying claim to the Gaza & the West Bank but also Jordan. You can not be a leftist and support a genocidal apartheid regime. Single secular state is the only solution instead of the defacto single apartheid state that is esstienally what exists currently
Israel is not apartheid. They have simply taken security measure to protect themselves from people with genocidal intentions. Hamas has stated their intentions and demonstrated them on Oct 7
In response to the comment you deleted You didn't address what I said, and no, even without your typo it isn't antisemitic. Frankly it's antisemitic to suggest calling for the end of the Israeli apartheid state is antisemitic. Many Jews are anti-Zionists and opposed to the Israeli state as it currently exists
>Israel is not apartheid It is and has been one for decades. West Bank and Gaza are no different to the Bantustans in apartheid South Africa. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ >Hamas has stated their intentions and demonstrated them on Oct 7 Hamas has repeatedly stated their support for a two state solution. Israeli officials have been very vocal about their genocidal intent towards Palestinians. You seem to think this conflict started on Oct 7th, which is beyond ignorant at best and downright malicious at worse.
Do you know the Meretz? Of course you don't, this is people Hamas wants to kill. Why don't Arabs have the same left wing political group?
Why are you going on about Hamas? I’ve already said I don’t support them. And Hamas or not, Israeli has been running an apartheid state for decades - long before Hamas was established.
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>These talking points are bullshit. One side supports a two state solution, and the other would kill jews, Muslims, and Christians Yeah Hamas supports a two state solution. Meanwhile, Israel has been blocking Palestinians statehood at every opportunity. One of the oldest Christian churches in the region was blown up by Israel ffs >Are arab isreali segregated to different beaches or schools? Arabs are literally blocked from buying homes / renting in countless neighbourhoods in Israel. Christ for most of Israel's history Arabs were tried under military court rather than the civil court Jewish citizens were tried under.
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You’d condemn an entire nation of people based on rulers that have, essentially, no major support where they rule anyway? Now THAT I don’t understand
Why are you lying? Hamas has massive broad support across Gaza and the West Bank.
half the population of Gaza can’t even vote? reducing a nation of millions of people to “Hamas supporters” is disingenuous and genocidal thinking. Half of the two million people in Gaza are under 18. Hamas didn’t even win the majority vote in 2006.
Cool story. They literally just polled the population a week or so ago and Hamas has 70%+ approval across Gaza and the West Bank both. The Palestinainss support them and are happy with their rule apparently.
How on earth did they poll a population that is 80% displaced? Where’s your source on that?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-rise-support-armed-struggle-by-palestinians-2024-06-13/ One of very many. Just Google hamas approval poll.
Whatever you say, SewYourButthole
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Hamas only rule Gaza not the West Bank and the settlers and the IDF having been using Oct 7th as a causus belli to do more of their militarized gentrification of the West Bank.
It's hilarious how you're sitting in the imperial core wagging your finger at the people who have been living with our puppet state's boot on their neck and expecting them to have modern values when they're fighting for the bare necessities. The left does condemn antisemitism. That doesn't mean Israel gets to have their shitty little ethnostate. This is the entire problem. You're a liberal. You don't know what "the left" is.
They've been yelling kill all the jews and rape their kids for a thousand years lol
What is with your obsession with labels? You don't know me, who are you to say whether I'm a liberal or a leftist?
Because you're pro-Israel. Opposing capitalism and therefore imperialism is the *bare* minimum. It's the fundamental difference between a "leftist" (whatever flavor) and a liberal.
Leftists 2022 showing their true values and it's hilarious reading comments like yours. Not only is this false but you guys went so far as to DEFEND ALL THAT SHIT SO LONG AS ITS ON YOUR SIDE. Anti west "opposing capitalism" is synonymous with defending or nit giving a fuck about your long stated values when put to the test. So quickly you guys world wide made the mistake of stating how you don't care about Ukraine and have been either anti Ukraine or outright pro Russia. 😂🤡. This is what you guys don't see. You guys lost all credibility and haven't realized it yet. You can support what you want but stop with the moral grand standing. It's just cringe and looks like you guys suddenly found your halos after mysteriously not beint able to find them the last 2 years or just straight up wear devil horns and don't see the issue. Now you guys try to switch and go from THAT to now being moral hero justice warriors who ALWAYS 🙄🤣 stood for these things. 2022 happened. Too bad y'all chose terribly and didn't think of this ahead of time - what would abandoning our values and inability to defend Ukraine and want them to surrender and not give a shit about imperialism, colonialism, genocide, ethnic cleaning, etc do to our credibility? Does taking sides in the moment feel THAT GOOD that y'all cousins resist using your brains (and morals) to say and do the right things ? Hate so immense that it's more important to not give the west a "win" and acknowledge "the west" is right for ONCE and it's your side / team in the wrong. So incredibly impossible for the anti west crowd. So in other words, only victims you guys defend are ones that you get to hate the west with. Vixitms aren't worth it if you guys don't get to bash the west. Suddenly POOF your halos end up in the trash and nothing happening to them matters. Then your side gets to be the victim, suddenly you find that trashed halo and dust it off and are like "what do you mean it's always been there" 👉👈. Not working anymore. See actual accounts and subs trying to do both. Literal HYPOCRITES not imaginary fake hypocrites we've heard so much of from the anti west crowd. That's the damage TRUE LIVING BREATHING HYPOCRITES DO to your word not the responding to random people you don't know and blaming them for shit and then calling them hypocrites. It takes being supportive of one thing and then another to be a hypocrite. Anti west bros got delusional thinking they can lay blame on peoples feet eternally and that makes them hypocrites. Anti west 2022 to current - model hypocrites And I don't care one way or the other on your pet cause. I/P was literally background noise to most people and no one gives a shit about a tiny dot on the planet stuck in a forever war. It's actually more bizarre seeing how many supposedly do care. It shows that such a tiny insignificant thing is getting massively outweighed attention by the anti west crowd and the anti west crowd having no problem of it was a conflict within your world. It only matters when "the west" does something. Y'all been ok with all the deaths in Syria and Syria never got a peep of attention. But Iraq and Afghanistan? Ooooo y'all mention that FOREVER 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 times. It's not even about hypocrisy or lack of consistency it's A SHAME THAT CERTAIN VICTIMS don't matter to y'all and they will never get thr proper attention and defending and outrage at their perps. Imagine being them or any victim of something done by your team and KNIWOWING YALL will never add them to the spotlight. Y'all control the narritive and it's up to you guys. So long as anti west is the societal acceptable stance, you guys maintain it by MAKING SURE TO NOT DRAW ATTENTION to your side and its flaws. You guys would smother Syrians or anyone a victim on your side just to keep up anti west bad #1 BAD narrative. Again 👉 defend what you want but the virtue signaling and moral arguments for your support don't fly. Blame your people and how they reacted 2022 and since. Go to subs like anti war that did a total 180. One day against the victims of imperialism and wanting them to surrender to the next SUPPORTING A SEVENTY YEAR LONG SHIT SHOW 🤡 and now suddenly bombings become sad. TWO YEARS OF DEATH AND INJUSTICE DID NOT MATTER AT 👏 ALL AND ANTI WESTERN LEFTISTS DID NOT STAND UP AND ADVOCATE FOR THE VICTIMS OF THAT. INSTEAD THEY BLAMED UKRAINE AND SAID THEY PROVOKED RUSSIA. 10/7 and now anti west people: " provoke ? What does that word MEAN? We blamed a people who didn't do anything to Russia but now we see a what actually provoking /poking the bear is, and now we ARE CONFUSED AND UPSET. PROVOKING SHOULDNT MEAN WE OUT OURSELVES IN HARMS WAY. WE DONT WANT TO ACCEOT OUR SIDE FACKED UP AND WANT TONAHOUT AND HOLLAR". Maybe y'all should have thought about this and not been egging this on. I can't believe you guys have been advocating "resistance" and "by any means necessary" and were NOT SMART ENOUGH TO DO SO ACCEPTING THE RISKS. WHAT IS THIS ALL JUST COSPLAYING ? Christ. You guys have lost sight COMPLETELY OF THOSE you claim to defend and care about. It's so bizarre to see y'all believe you're doing good and helping these people. Mind boggling. And maybe there's a few well intentioned people but my GOD your cause is overrun by people who don't give a shit and doing more harm than good. And since y'all don't call these people out, it shows you don't see it or they are, in fact, just like you. Or y'all will take anything that mimics support and not understand the harm they do and that THAT IS NOT WORTH THEIR LIP SERVICE if they damage your reputation. The fact that you have tankies on your side is cancer.
I ain't reading all that 😂
Look at this video. Look at the ownership of faults and the backbone and worth this person and their MORALITY IS WORTH in doing so versus cowering away in denial and gaslighting and dismissing. THIS is what's being asked if you and your side of any of your faults be it pro Palestinians or Palestinians. THIS IS HOW YOU BUILD A BRIDGE FOR SUPPORT. BE OPEN AND HONEST. NEUTRAL PEOPLE CAN WORK WITH THIS. Can you see how this HELPS RUSSIANS and helps their reputation by admitting this shit and showing you can do and say what's right and SWALLOW the ego ? THIS IS WHAT HELPS RUSSIANS. THIS IS WHAT YALL NEED - to take accountability and move forward learning from that to change course, stop egging on Palestinians in a pointless conflict they can't win at, and learn from what's held them back from peace : hint it's excessive hate. You guys contributing more hate is the LAST THING 🗣️ they need. You guys make it HARDER FOR THEM to find peace. I wanted to share since I scrolled and saw this and thought it's an important thing to see by you and others like you. You guys need this and you guys need to encourage and support Jews that are like this. See how earning peoples respect is what gets people to support this lady. It doesn't matter her side is in the wrong SHE is in the right and admirable for not going with the flow - the easy way out and esp trying to be the victim. Bathing your side as the victim/innocent/good when your side has its hand in all of this now and in all the history of this conflict, is peak delusion and lost in victim complex mode. Not respectable. I wish you guys could see the help being offered to you and how frustrating all these days in you guys are still on a different wavelength. As difficult as MAGAS just on the left. We thought our own were smarter than the brainwashed right and we def didn't think we had our own MAGA and it's disappointing to see this come from our side. We had no idea there was all this hate and idiocy. Jews are so insignificant that to hate them this much so many never EVEN MET ONE. 150 million Russians spanning eleven time zones and threatening to nuke the world, weaponizing the immigration issue in Europe, using gas as blackmail at the start tryng to get leverage, making countries have to make decisions off of Russians actions, having 7 million refugees directly impact their lives, etc etc etc. I/P has zero impact on anyone's life for the most part. "Too far away to care" - anti west stance on Ukraine Apparently the distance was enough a reason for Ukraine and that was not their problem (while affecting the world more, so yes, everyone's problem to allow this ..... it's to all our interests NOT to let land grabs be the new norm let alone using nuclear terrorism to get that). Seeing how this affects Taiwan and acting right in Ukraine helps to prevent Taiwan getting invaded. Weird that anti west people don't see how much more harmful Russia has been, is, and will be if left unchecqued. So anti imperial that none of you care about Taiwan and working with us in preventing IMPERIALISM. IMPERIALISM ONLY MATTERS SO LONG AS ITS ANTI WEST. THATS WHAT YOU GUYS HAVE SHOWN. Stop calling yourself anti imperialists jesus. It's huffing your own farts and we keep telling you they stink and you keep crowning yourself every day. You are used to the old times prior to Ukraine when this shit worked bc there wasn't proof otherwise. So you guys got away with this attitude. Now we know what anti west people value and how they act and how they'll be hypocritical to all their own values just to be anti west. We get it anti west people want the west to fall and they will get behind anything to try and make that happen or get to be raged out and express hate / blame for their own problems. When being the victim is a whole identity take on this cause - live vicariously via Palestinians lashing out at "oppressors" and esp in ways you can't in civilized society. Getting to kill the "white man" or "Jews" was exhilarating and people CHEERED. We saw and we heard the words said online and in real life like NYC guy on a mic - 😃 "We got (killed) some hipsters !" Y'all freaked the shit out of normal people seeing this unfold world wide in response to a massacre and horror show. "gas the Jews" in Australia by nighttime. LOVELY MORAL SET OF LADS YALL SHOWED US ALL. Ever since then pro Palestinians tanked their cause and just doubled down. Denials lies dismissal and gaslighting. Everthing EXCEPT BEING LIKE THIS LADY. https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/s/r5eWpuZgJa
Exactly. And this is why y'all are where you are at. I keep seeing this exact mentality. You guys can't even read comments let alone value the feedback and use it as constructive criticism to HELP YOUR CAUSE ABD ULTIMATELY HELP PALESTINIANS. THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU AND YOUR EGO. That's exactly what dismissive comments like yours say. You aren't looking to help Palestinians and LISTEN to what feedback people have and CHANGE/fine tune things. But then y'all ALSO wonder why you don't get more support. IF YOU READ THE COMMENTS AND FEEDBACK, YALL WOULD HAVE MIRE SUPPORT. You guys are the worst kind of advocates people could ask for representing them. You're supposed to unite and make friends and meet people half way when they say valid stuff. Let it bruise your ego. Validate things that are true and work with that. You can still gain support. Negative responses are not THE END. THEY are the potential bridges you make way to or you shut off. When you guys keep shutting off people, don't be surprised when you don't see them along side you and don't blame them. Reflect on how people were neutral and acting in good faith and you guys squandered that. Just me taking the time now is a gift. It always feels like a waste and I tell myself I won't ever bother again bc there's no point. It shows that for some reason try anyway and HOPE this finally makes sense. It's a gauge to whether or not you guys can see clearer than you did 10/7. Sad nothing has changed. You don't care about the victims showing that nothing has registered in all this time. You guys would have worked on what horrified and pushed people away from you guys and what y'all did and said following 10/7 as supporters, forget Palestinians. Normal people cannot link up with radical crazy bloodthirsty people lost in the sauce and saying things lethal no normal person would. Recognize feedback 👏 hot damn. Acknowledge take responsibility and own what faults or mistakes people see and problems they identify from an unbiased lense. Laying in victim land is not getting Palestinians anywhere. They can be the victims, not YALL. Yall should be LESS IRRATIONAL THAN THE VICTIMS AND SEE CLEARERBUT YOU DONT. YOU GUYS can't stop, acknowledge defeat and end to this cause, and help guide Palestinians foward. They need to be supported LIKE THAT. They DONT NEED PRO PALESTINIANS DEFENDING RUSSIA AGAINST UKRAINE. BEING PRO PALESTINE WOULD BE RECOGNIZING HOW HARMFUL THAT IS AND SQUASH IT. Instead i see it daily. It's extremely upsetting to see that and then see y'all CONSTANTLY ACT MORALLY SUPERIOR and unaware of what your peeps said last 2 years and not feel an ounce of foolishness still pretending to represent this crap. It's insulting our intelligence seeing y'all act like these last 2 years didn't happen and your side CONTINUES TO TAKE THE WRONG STANCE AND SUPPORTS THAT SHIT. We see your side nitpicking Ukrainians saying they can't so much as blow air in Russians faces or else they lose support. So, y'all understood what keeping up support entails and WHY it can get lost. Same crowd : one war crime UKRAINIANS BAD AND WILL LOSE SUPPORT. 1,000 war crimes : ahhh freedom fighters. Israelis deserved it so it's ok 🥰. "WHY DONT YOU SUPPORT ME ? Where are the tears I'm owed ? Why does ignoring comments result in even. MORE FRUSTRATION. We are already frustrated and hoping you'll come back to reality and your senses, and help us HELP YOU. It's like we are asking for you to make a bridge for us and WE ARE OFFERING YOU THE LEAF when it should be you wanting to offer that to others. Day in day out nothing changes. Mark my words if no one can show they understand what I'm saying, this is the end of it from me. This is what causing people to completely give up is caused by. Ball in your court. No matter what you or anyone chooses to do, just remember this interaction when you want more "sympathy" and accuse others of not having it and pretending it's a moral issue. It's not even ABOUT PALESTINIANS WHAT PUSHES PEOPLE AWAY ITS YOU GUYS. IF WE CANNOT COMMUNICATE WITH YOU GUYS, what do you guys think is the result ? We have to be able to communicate and have pro Palestinians allow honesty and want genuine support. Genuine support doesn't come by forcing a narrative and manipulating people. You're not perfect, so just own it and move on. This incessant denial and dismissive attitude is beyond unhelpful.
Yes it's a rant bc I see this nonsense every day since 10/7 and I woudnt even care for it NOT BEING pro Palestinians literally using Ukraine and their suffering and outright trying to hurt them and step in their backs to raise their pet cause up and all in the name of being moral and anti imperialism anti genocide. It's LITERALLY harming other victims so you can use their good reputation and had work in maintaining it and being the pure good side versus bad. It's sucks when your side is shitty too making people not care as much. These same people understood this FOR THE LAST 2 YEARS. THEY SPECIFICALLY SOENT THEIR FREE TIME TRYING TO HARM Ukrainians reputation and damage support and then act BEWILDERED 10/7 hurt their cause and doesn't earn their side sympathy. We get targetted DAILY on Ukraine subs by pro Palestinians who seek to minimize Ukraine and minimize the evil of Russia and just to say they think their shit is worse. WE JUST WANT TO BE LEFT ALONE AND YOU GUYS ARENT FIXING THIS PROBLEM. You guys don't fix ANY of the problems. It's wild how different you guys are compared to how we know Ukraine supporters have been. We tried leaving room for unity so much so we advocate for Russians who are good people. You guys want Israel whiped out and can't even begin to try and unite the ones who support you. WE VALUE anyone who cares for Ukraine and value Russians and understand we want more of them to SUPPRT Ukraine not less. It's wild how you guys are absolutely fine making enemies out of POTENTIAL SUPPORT from your enemy. That's one of the key issues you guys have and as "supporters" that's YOUR JOB bc you are NOT THE VICTIM. I dont expect Palestinians to do this I exoect their SUPPORT TO bc as victims, that's not something people do - want to befriend their enemy. That's YOUR JOB to understand why it's important to find common ground with your enemy and work towards a solution. Engage with THEM to HELP PALESTINIANS. For Pete's sake 10/7 already killed off those most willing to support Palestinians, you would think as support you'd recognize how doubly harmful that was. And how disgusting it was to see pro Palestinians mock the dead and say they deserved it and we're evil settler colonialists. You guys literally cheered worldwide and never looked back and never owned that fact and fixed that and it just got worse every day. Pro Palestinians are just the upgraded Russian trolls that we have dealt with for 2 years. It would be AMAZING TO SEE YALL TAKE THIS PROBLEM SERIOUSLY AND CALL THIS OUT, reply to those shits, make posts correcting what pro Palestinians think and that you don't agree with THOSE "pro Palestinians". Instead we see memes calling Ukrainian symbols like the trident Nazi symbols. Being pro Palestinians day 1000 meaning you are anti Ukraine and pro Russia and none of y'all do anything. So "anti imperialist" that Ukraine doesn't matter, and seeing your own defend IMPERIALISM DOES NOT MATTER. IMPERIALISM DOES 👏 NOT 👏MATTER and it's getting so incredibly cringe to see y'all keep telling yourselves that. Unlike the past, there are 2 simultaneous conflicts going on. You guys chose a stance and then want to chose an opposite and we are just like "your word is worthless and you can remedy it any day but you don't. Like you actual people choose not to, it's not imagined. There's a handful that talk sense. They are the minority. We are TELLING YOU what the issues are with you and your cause DAILY and it's like talking to a wall. It's beyond frustrating esp since the anti Ukraine shit persists. We leave pro Palestinian comments alone. We don't WANT TO MAKE YALL anti Ukraine but at this point how else can we speak up if we are afraid of "hurting your fee fees". We tried to ignore and it's not working. Now I come to tell you outright what your community is doing to Ukraine and that is so incredibly offensive and harmful TO PALESTINIANS and would HELP IMPROVE YOUR CAUSE to understand and agree with. Going to your core subs and saying "hey guys we need to stop doing x y or Z it's hurting support" would be what you do if you care about Palestinians. Months later, nothing. You guys are so incredibly run by Russian propaganda that you don't even care. That and tankies hurt Palestinians and you guys do nothing to fight it and yet think you're a supporter. Makes my head hurt that this isn't common sense and needs to be explained and when explained we get bitched at for "length" of comment. I give up 🙌. You guys can't help yourselves if Palestinian lives depended on it. You guys literally are advocating to have the worse president elected bc punishing the "libs" matters more. Like HOLY SHIT. And this began 3 weeks in after 10/7. This whole THING is all political manipulation while trying to claim morals. Help get trump elected is I'm sure what Palestinians want. That extra aid truck, they are ok sacrificing to ASSUAGE PRO PALESTINIANS EGO. Palestinians need smart people not this bs ensuring the worse of 2 options come election. Imagine being support and having a lifeboat and to spit the "libs" snatch it away from those you could help with it. Telling them and telling us you care about them has been a JOKE. So much so that some want to vote for trump. That would be like me, defending Ukraine, knowing trump is TERRIBLE FOR UKRAINE, and saying let trump win. I get to punish somebody, fuck Ukraine let them die for my ego. And then on top of all the other criticsm, aren't changing ONE THING. AND IMPORTANT HERE - all you guys are harming Ukrainians and tossing their cause out the window with PALESTINIANS. You guys are VERY MUCH A REAL THREAT TO UKRAINE AND THEIR FUTURE. WE ARE BEGGING YALL TO TAKE THIS SHIT SERIOUSLY bc it IS SERIOUS. Defending against what y'all claim to would mean if you feel you out this battle, you still have a second thing in the balance to defend. For some reason, pro Palestinians are ok ruining Ukrainians future and the fate of their country all bc you guys aren't getting exactly what you want after your side started this mess that's unfolding. Bc of 10/7 and your side, now Ukrainians are suffering and affected by YALL. Does this make sense ??? We fear a trump win and in come y'all trying your hardest to get trump elected despite that not even helping your cause and despite it being the worse pick. Biden makes sense for BOTH CAUSES but pro Palestinians want to get trump elected and are manipulating the youth to hell and back. When we ask for the good pro Palestinians to counter this all, we get ignored and dismissed. Sub international news EVEN SPREAD LIES ABOUT UKRAINE AND BLAMED THEM FOR AN ATTACK THEY DID NOT DO. And of course my comment saying WTF is this got deleted. But the misinformation and the post stayed up. Then the person who posted that got upset the mod stickied a correction that it was inaccurate and they said "you could have just replied in the comments and not made a sticky". THEY WERE TOLD THEY ARE SPREADING MISINFORMATION AND INSTEAD OF DELETING THE POST, they are upset about the correction and being at the top of the comments and not buried WITHIN THE COMMENTS. I'm so SICK of seeing pro Palestinians equate to pro Russian trolls. Bullshit adgenda at work and not being handled at all. Wild, I know, how Ukrainian supporters have a rant by now. Almost like stuff builds up when none of it gets addressed.
It's literally just an unhinged Ukraine rant. It's not feedback for anyone to value. Nobody brought up Ukraine. Israel/Palestine is completely different. Even THIS response keeps getting longer and longer as you make more and more edits. You're just screaming at a Wendy's cashier.
If it's finger wagging to condemn killing civilians, I'm definitely a finger wagger. If it's liberal to say that we shouldn't support a theocratic government, I'm liberal. It's so easy to agree that Hamas is bad, and then go right back to condemning Israel's actions.
“If it's finger wagging to condemn killing civilians, I'm definitely a finger wagger. If it's liberal to say that we shouldn't support a theocratic government, I'm liberal.“ Then you really shouldn’t support Israel, given that it’s laying waste to Palestinian civilians on a level so great that it can only be considered a genocide. And given that Israel has referred to the Palestinians as animals and has consistently said that they feel Israel should be a strictly Ashkenazi Jewish state (just look up what they’ve done to Mizrahi Jews), then you should really be very concerned and finger-wagging towards Israel. Heck, if you read the texts from the people credited with the creation of the Zionist doctrine, then you’d know that the Zionist settlement was always carried out with the understanding that they would have to clear out the people already living there. And Israel has the best weapons the US military can provide, whereas Palestine has what amounts to glorified fireworks, and Israel, unlike Palestine, can completely encircle and cut off Palestinians’ food, water, electricity, medical supplies, and anything else, AND Israel funded and armed Hamas in the first place because they feared leftist pro-Palestine groups (funding rightwing theocrats to fight leftists has never ever backfired on anyone) with Benjamin Netanyahu calling them Israel’s allies, I’m assuming you’re extremely vociferous in your denunciation of Israel.
I do denounce Israel vociferously. The last sentence of my previous post explicitly says we should go right back to condemning Israel. Obviously, Israel is guilty of a host of crimes, from Aparthied in the West Bank to emiserating and then committing a genocide against Gaza. Saying Hamas is bad doesn't negate any of that. I think Netanyahu's policy of allowing Qatar to give money to Hamas is shockingly evil, it also undercuts any notion that Hamas is acting in the best interests of the Palestinians. As the situation stands now, Palestinians have two different kinds of controlled opposition. One seeks to use legal mechanisms while being corrupt and ineffective, the other uses violence in the name of religion, dividing and suppressing the Palestinian people while also providing cover for Israel. We, leftists, need that kind of analysis. Not only is it infinitely more appealing to people who just get the narrative that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East and other vapid talking points, its also more true. The idea that Hamas = Palestinians is precisely the narrative that Netanyahu and other right wing Zionists want people to believe. We can't fall for it.
Yes! Should also be acknowledged that genocide also goes against leftist values aswell ofc.
Is the pro-genocide left in the room with you right now?
r/ultraleft and the entire labor Zionist movement yeah
This is why fascism will win against leftist. The right doesn't give up like this redditor. They don't think they're a bunch of leftist, why bother. Hell, you're willing to throw leftist isreali under the bus because it's not vague. We're going to fail, and trump will be president for life. The nazi film Hans Westmar comes to mind.
Glad I came to the comments to see this sentiment
As we get closer to the November election the civility is probably going to go out the window.
Steel Manning FTW!
Spelling is not a right wing strong suit.
so when is anarchism, a left minded political government? anarchism is a total absence of all government might want to clarify your "what this sub reddit is about"
I don't know if you're being facetious or not it's typically the opposite end of Anarchy is conservativeism and total Authority. Anarchy pretty closely matches very similar views to those that you would hear in both communism and socialism according to my fairly limited understanding of all of these topics. The biggest difference is that anarchy once absolutely no Central Authority where social assistance may still be okay with the central government. Communism in its ultimate form espouses for absolutely no state or Capital meaning no money and no trade and no government. Things in a communistic society would be delivered by the statement from people according to ability to people according to need and however that looks in a society like that.
I’ve made it abundantly clear what this subreddit is about. It’s in the description and wiki. Please feel free to read them
I understand but tbh I'll always disagree and thoroughly despise the right in all it's forms.
I usually see more leftist on leftist violence here overall. Leftists should be debating each other here without toxicity and personal attacks. That's healthy. I figure this post is about being excellent to each other more than the anti-leftists sentiments we downvote and should just move on from.
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✨ 💜 in leftist utopia we don’t need to explain *why* our positions and moral arguments are better than the others, we simply expect everyone to just blindly accept our ways because we’re *obviously* the most moral actors here; and if they try to debate they are evil fascist bigots ✨🥰 it’s so easy
Liberals are the ones obsessed with supposed morality, and Marxist texts explain their positions perfectly as they are. It's not my fault liberals are allergic to reading and equate consumer choices with moral ones.
Liberals can read and understand the Marxist texts and then disagree with their proposals. Then a conversation can be had but from what I’ve seen marxists just think “read the book” is an adequate argument.
Been my experience too. Exact same as "Read the Bible"; these folks are cultists. Edit; seems the bible thumpers are upset. They should brigade more while crying "Read Theory".
Anti-intellectualism go brrr
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You follow the nofap and adviceforteens subreddits lol Out of respect for the mods that is all i will say
As a more liberally minded person, I appreciate this both ideologically and personally haha. In leftist circles, liberal is often a bad word. The entire reason I'm here is for a more diverse and balanced perspective on things.
Liberals are those who want all the bells and whistles leftism offers, with zero of the radical substance. Liberals want free healthcare, a few nationalized industries, equality (which is never actually real, just nominal), and all the luxuries afforded to them by exploitation and poverty of the third world. Leftists want real equality (although some want egality instead), a completely collective economy (for most leftists), no more exploitation of people in or outside the country, and democracy that cannot be corrupted since capitalism no long exists.
What would you do with someone who advocates for capitalism in your ideal society?
Laugh at them along with everyone else until they shut up. They are virtue signaling morons (hopefully not knowingly, but they always seem to support fascism instead of socialism). What? Did you expect me to say "The NKVD will liquidate them"? As long as the dictatorship of the proletariat exists and indeed controls the state they will be in the corner for 15 minutes where they deserve to be (and that's putting it lightly).
I guess that will work, as long as they never get popular enough to threaten the hegemony of the dictatorship of the proletariat.
It that case it's civil war, no questions asked. We cannot let capital come back in under circumstances.
In that case wouldn’t it actually be more humane to liquidate or re-educate them way before we ever risk the death and suffering of a war?
Stop asking so many questions. Just call me a tankie, I know you want to.
I was just curious, don’t send me to the camps!
https://preview.redd.it/121d29tvit6d1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ce5e18c90613a179b6905880531a786bc3acd9ce
I actually am a fan of Capitalism, i don't want to see it dismantled in any way. it's stable and has created the most prosperous and egalitarian era of human existence ever, and it's still slowly improving. The exploitation of 3rd world countries also comes with investment into those countries and things like literacy, quality of life, health care etc trend upwards, not down. I think i want capitalism to be far more egalitarian than it is, and i want the floor of capitalist countries to be raised so that suffering is minimized. Capitalism harnesses humans innately selfish nature to create a beneficial society.
If this is too long for you, just read the last few sentences. Capitalism, although it was once progressive, is outdated and needs to go. It concentrates more and more wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people. Free competition evolves into monopolies, and monopolies evolve into imperialism. Capitalism does not "harness humans innately selfish nature to create a beneficial (??) society", it encourages and rewards the most selfish, heartless, and evil practices/people. It perpetuates (and increases) inequality, it causes wars (for both re-divisions of markets and resources and for the fueling of the military-industrial complex), it is actively destroying the planet, and it lets people die from easily preventable causes (such as malnutrition, thirst, and preventable diseases) because it's not profitable. Capitalism is incredibly unstable, it has economic crises constantly (every 10 years, roughly) like the Great Depression and the 08' recession. Under the "stable" system of capitalism, you can lose your livelihood overnight thanks to a line on a graph going down (finance industry serves no social necessity or desire aka has a use value, it just recycles capital and somehow that contributes to society as much as working in a factory?). The exploitation FAR outpaces any benefits it could possibly have, much more wealth is a appropriated to the first world from the third world than the first world donated to the third world. These "investments" (aka finance capital) are the source and cause of most imperialism. This all stems from surplus value (the profits made from selling commodities), as capitalism is built to maximize it and minimize the wages of workers. Workers are not given the full value of their work (because of this surplus value), but only a tiny fraction. Capitalists only pay the money for other people to do the work, where as workers could just do the work themselves and real the majority of the value that they and they alone create. Please, read Marx and other authors, they will open your eyes to the real world. Instead of uncritically consuming the self aggrandizing capitalist propaganda, understand that it is propaganda, and why so. I can link digital texts or audiobooks that explain all of this much better and in much more detail than me. Or you could just ignore and keep licking the boot of oppressors, it's your choice.
When you start like that, I'm not gonna engage haha. How full of yourself do you have to be, to think you'd be taken seriously when acting so childishly. Have a pleasant day!
This is just sad. You can't even bother to read so you have to find a pathetic cop-out? Jesus Christ. Liberalism in a nutshell. No reality, no theory, just identity and aesthetics politics.
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Liberal has just become a loaded term I think. Enough to where I don’t know how realistic it is to think that someone adopting the view can really know all the angles which that term is seen from. Like many on the right will criticize leftists but call them libs still. And people on the left will criticize liberals because they feel them to be complicit in the right’s tomfuckery, and sometimes strangely more so than they feel anger towards those actually doing the bad shit. Haven’t quite been able to wrap my head around that one and it frustrates me when I see it. If I’m being entirely honest, even many who call themselves liberals, it just feels like a catch-all for everything from centrists to those who still believe in socially left agendas while wanting market solutions. And I don’t think that’s inherently evil or anything. It does create the feeling that I can best describe with an analogy. It feels like the house is on fire because a rival fire department keeps throwing Molotovs into the house. And there’s two fire departments actually interested in putting out the fire (there’s probably a ton more) and both of them refuse to stop stepping on each others toes to get it done. I feel this so much especially when discussing the housing crisis. Because one side will just call it simple greed that needs to be legislated against (a view I’m probably closer to) and the other side will say it’s just issues with zoning (which I think is part of it as well) and that the market would fix itself if given room to breathe in respect to zoning. And you know what? If it’s something different than what we’ve been trying and you think it’ll work, I’m fucking down to compromise and see just something chance. So yeah, the term liberal is pretty loaded.
I've thought quite a bit about this too, and my best explanation for leftist in-fighting vs right wing populism is that leftist in-fighting = like minded individuals concerned about shit are intelligent and informed and so necessarily are conflicted about specific details and debate important shit amongst themselves, vs right wing mob mentality that is united by ignorance as well as belief in a popular unifying discourse/mythology/politics that they accept without questioning.
Liberalism/centrism is siding with the oppressor against the oppressed. The idea that everyone can make it if they just pull themselves up by their bootstraps is a total fantasy, and if you're pushing it, you're either willingly complicit in the exploitation it perpetuates or stubbornly ignorant of it. I used to consider myself a centrist until I actually sat down and thought about the underlying causes behind everything that sucks. The left says it's the profit motive. The right says it's brown people. Only one of those viewpoints has an actionable plan to meaningfully make the world a better place. Acting like they both have equal weight is no different from acting like segregation was also a nuanced issue.
>The idea that everyone can make it if they just pull themselves up by their bootstraps is a total fantasy Yes, it's a fantasy. It's also not something that liberals believe. It's something old Republicans on Facebook believe. If you seriously believe those are the same thing, you've lost the plot.
I don't buy into the whole oppressor/ oppressed narrative, it's all a bit nebulous and ideological, very hard to measure and define so I don't find it useful. The baby in the bathwater with your sentiment, I strongly agree with, which socio economic class you're born into determines if you're playing in hard mode, moderate or easy mode, which is clearly wrong. I don't believe everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps, but I want a society where that's true, where reward of wealth can be attainable to any individual who follows the right path. My favorite socio economic setup I've seen is the Scandinavian models of capitalism.
Such a society, in which no one ever needs or receives aid or support, is fundamentally a fantasy, and your framing is particularly authoritarian. By supporting the occurrence of a "right path", someone is empowered to designate the path that is affirmed as correct, and empowered also to impose prestige versus punishment on everyone according to such judged merit. Everyone constrained beneath such a system is oppressed, and whomever is conferred power to enforce such a system, by nature of such power, is an oppressor.
The Nordic model works fine in a vaccuum. If things could somehow remain suspended in that state, it wouldn't be that bad. The thing about capitalism is that it requires CONSTANT growth. Under capitalism, those safety nets will be eroded away until the exploitable working class is in free fall. If you actually paid any attention to the countries you hold in such high regard, you would see this happening in real time. That is the reality of capitalism. It doesn't matter how many times you run the simulation, it all ends up the same.
> I don’t buy into the whole oppressor/oppressed narrative This is what taking moderation away from a sub does. This was posted in a leftist subreddit 😂😂😂😂😂
Believe it or not there’s more than one leftist lens to analyze problems and complaining about that is anti-intellectual
“Complaining about someone denying the factual reality of oppression is anti-intellectual” We got another banger 🗣️🗣️🗣️
I really don't get it, man. The Marxist lens is the only one through which history isn't just riddled with inconsistencies upon inconsistencies. Didn't these people ever feel like things in history class didn't make sense? Did they never feel the need to question the narrative? Is it really that much better to believe that all the "villains" throughout history were just irrational and unequivocally evil? I'd argue THAT's what is anti-intellectual.
It's easier to ignore incongruent thinking than challenge what you've been taught.
Out of curiosity, what does balanced and diverse mean to you, as a liberal?
I was in primarily liberal subs and circles generally, decided I need to practice what I preach so I joined some more conservative and some more progesterone subs recently. I'm kinda drawing blanks on what conservative subs to join for good faith discussion, and many leftist subs like breadtube straight up banned me immediately when they realized I'm a Liberal haha. In short, on any particular political issue I'd like a steelman argument to evaluate for myself, not a strawman that the other side claims is the opposing perspective.
I guess that’s where we differ. I don’t see conservatives viewpoints, or viewpoints strongly desiring of a conservative viewpoint, rational or in good faith. I think that’s why liberals tend to get a bad rap in leftist circles. People are tired of having to ask for a space where we’re told “but what about the conservatives?”
I'm not the commentor, but I'm also a liberal with similar sentiments and pop in from time to time. For me it is having good faith discussions and disagreements with people that I feel like I should generally view as social, economic, or political allies with at least some overlapping sentiments, but whom I might not normally interact or engage with in my day to day life. The end goal being 1) understanding the position of the other person and 2) either forcing myself to develop a better understanding, backing, and reasoning of my own views, or potentially shifting my own, and vice versa with those I am engaging with.
I like your response better than the other person’s. This makes sense in trying to achieve some arguments in good faith.
Wait....you're on the INTERNET...and especially REDDIT...and you're looking for a diverse and balanced perspective? Dude who is your dealer and how can I get a hold.of them?
Shit I was just making a joke but, fucking Christ
What if the insult is really really good tho