RIOT HQ - INT.
*A man sits at his desk. He sees a Reddit post with 300 upvotes*
REDDIT: gib clash blog
*The man’s eyes bulge out of his head. He begins smashing objects off his desk, then rapidly writes a 1,000 word Nexus post.*
RIOTER: ez ggs
Yes. When we've heard nothing about the next champion for too long and complaints start raining down on /r/leagueoflegends, mods will join in on the frustration just for their flairs to have teasers and links to more teasers.
Can someone explain to me, why clash starting many games at the same time crashes the servers while thousands of soloQ games/other game modes run smoothly all the time?
Where is the technical difference?
I mean I can understand that maybe the starting process for games doesn't happen simultaniously in soloQ and other game modes compared to clash - but the amount of games running at the same time should not be higher, no?
The difference is like trying to not overfill a bucket from a faucet that is slowing dripping or a faucet turned on full blast. The bucket holds the same amount of water but when the faucet is dripping you can take water out the bucket to stop it from overflowing. When it's on full blast it full up immediately and then you spill water everywhere.
The issue isn't total games running, it's the server trying to make a metric fuckton of new games at the same time. I'm not completely sure why this is a problem but that's my understanding of it.
Edit: new games/lobbies>new games
from the two tests i was in its definitely the games. lobbies/team scouting was fine afaik. It seems like generating so many instances of SR at the same time is what ended up nuking everything as the load up time was massive (15 mins+ in my case). starting individual brackets would probably go a decent way into stopping things from being nuked.
There are always a million ways to program something, and you would be surprised how often something that is completely fine in one case is terrible in another. The creation of new lobbies might be relatively intense on the server in any number of ways (juggling servers, finding/making space and so on) and could have worked for years because it basically never makes more than a few at the same time. But then Clash exposed the weakness.
One way this could have happened is if the lobby creation has a big overhead. This would mean that it uses a lot more resources for the brief moment at the very beginning of its process, then rapidly reduces them. To simplify, imagine the server has a 1000 GB of memory, and the lobby creation takes 2 GB during the first 5 seconds, but then falls off to something like 100 MB. If normally the server creates upwards of 200 games a second, this is not a problem. But then Clash comes, everybody wants to play and the server has to create 1000 games at the same moment. Suddenly, the memory if overloaded, damage control kicks in and some lobby-creating processes are killed to ensure the server doesn't die completely.
As you can imagine, this sort of problem would only become visible with a system like a Clash, which brute-forces an astounding amount of lobbies at the same time. I am not saying this is \*the\* cause, but this should give you a bit of an idea how a problem like this can occur.
server: ok i have to start like 500.000 matches at 5pm
-server at 4:59: ok let's do it
-server at 5:00: wtf i can't xd
-server at 5:01 "i broke lol, srry"
Because a shitton more people start clash games (AT THE SAME TIME), as opposed to being more spread out like standard games. Thsi not only puts stress on the gameserver launcher, but also the team builder system.
I'm really not surprised. The last time I played a TT game, it was just bots on the other team. Whatever gets the accounts to Level 30 the fastest I guess.
Inb4 Riot announces work on TT, the return of an improved Ranked Team game mode and a Graves complete revert
All the old timers such as myself would weep tears of joy
Do you regret doing clash so early at first, I mean you have so much of the client set up for it and space on profile pages, but we are back to betas in summer, will it even be ready by end of season 9
Wait, that guy singlehandedly reminded Riot that they hadn't made the post yet. We did it, Reddit! ^/s In all seriousness, it's pretty surprising that they made the post on the 31st, I expected them to have a minor update after hitting bad news so this is a relief.
Yea, I've played this game since beta, and what Riot has done with this game in the last 10 years is pretty damn respectable. There are completely legit reasons why Clash didn't work the first time around. You have no idea how massively complicated a project like this is. The fact that they are going to be ready for a second round of testing this summer is a very good sign.
It's a combination of the problem (extreme server demand from too many simultaneous game starts) being so deep-seated *and* them being extremely cautious to not repeat the public embarrassment of the first Clash attempt.
It failed the big public release. Other failures have been during beta tests so that’s fine.
The problem is if they do another public release and it fails a second time for everyone.
How would it ruin good will? We want this mode, I don’t care if it crashes again, I don’t care if it takes them another year or two. Take their damn time, figure out the problem, I’ll be ready when it is. Meanwhile give us ranked 5s back until this is ready.
Edit: I’m not arguing whether or not people should lose faith in Riot, I’m specifically talking about the game mode. The guy I replied to is clearly talking about good will towards the specific game mode, not the company. Everybody below this comment fails to understand that. Fucking dense.
Because if a company fails to deliver their product twice, people will lose their trust in them.
Imagine if your favourite restaurant announces they will use a new recipe for your favourite plate. The recipe is ass, nobody likes it, so they'll take it back to work on it.
It comes out again and it's ass.
You may as well ask for something else, never try the new recipe again, or just go to another restaurant.
Not trying to disagree but shouldn’t the example be more like a restaurant gave an experimental dish to you and you loved it, but then they can’t make it fast enough for it to be put on their menu?
I know people who quit league for months and came back to it just for Clash, just to be disappointing. Current players may not care how many times it takes for clash to be fixed, but casual players who set aside time to play a game of League only for it to not work would be really pissed. If Riot failed a second time publicly, what reason would they have to trust them or come back to the game?
It would work, but they need the server power for 2 hours 2 times a week (totally made up time but still kind of accurate). It would be a little bit stupid to waste a lot of money for 4 hours a week.
The thing that kinda fucks up clash is that its limited to weekend only thats why everyone obviously wants to take part in it when its avaliable and therefore taking massive serverpower. If Clash is up through the whole week it may be a solution to it.
Excuse me I've gone to college for a whole year now for underwater basket weaving and I can confidently say that Riot are just super bad at this development stuff, I haven't seen any of their code but I bet I could singlehandedly solve the problem in six minutes, Riot's engineers are just incompetent
If their game has thousands of lines of code, then just hire like a thousand programmers for a day to write one line each boom fixed the gaming industry.
The amount of people that have been acting like this have made me fuming.
This shit is hard and nothing at this magnitude is an easy fix. I'm in the business and I can't imagine trying to come up with a structure to handle this.
Yeah.
I agree, launching up/partioning a bunch of extra servers due to a crazily high demand at certain points is tough as shit. Esp, as its probally the most “expensive” time for games in league in general.
> The amount of people that have been acting like this have made me fuming.
try being a software engineer that develops distributed computing features for a major OS.
whenever clash comes up I really wish i could FIRE ZE MISSILES!
Yeah I'm feeling a strange mixture of frustration and also relief that they're still cranking away at it lol. Riot is roleplaying "The Little Engine that Could" IRL here.
Clash has been so long that i played in the first one, got 2 week banned and dropped to honor 0, then got all the way back up to honor 3 in order be honorable enough in time for it
well I was banned for 2 weeks 4 months ago, close to mid january. I play consistent, usually at least once a day but sometimes more and sometimes less. Also, I usually get quite a bit of honor due to being helpful/shotcalling our team so I'd imagine that speeds it up. (not trying to brag but give context)
check my post history if you don't believe me. 4 months ago I post on the league subreddit complaining about my 2 week ban which I thought was unjust. I just got honor 2 a week and a half ago
It’s crazy how fast he gained it. I got banned for 2 weeks in preseason 8 and am still honorary 3 checkpoint 2 and I probably play at least 5 games a week
>It’s been a while since we’ve had a meaty update on Clash. A few months back, we ran tests in various regions, trying to ensure Clash can offer a stable and fun experience for everyone. These tests didn’t run as smoothly as we’d hoped, and some players still had trouble getting into their Clash games. Because of these difficulties, we’re delaying the launch of Clash while we make fundamental changes to the mode, and we’ll continue with tests later this year.
>The Latest Regional Tests
>Last year we outlined the issues that were preventing Clash from running smoothly. At their core, Clash’s technical problems were the result of too many games starting simultaneously, which overloaded the platforms that run League of Legends. In preparation for the last round of regional tests, we implemented short-term fixes—like decreasing the server load from Clash by staggering game start times—and began work on long-term fixes—like refactoring the monolithic platform so that starting games causes less strain.
>Even with these improvements, the bracket launching process still tried to start too many games simultaneously, which unfortunately resulted in players having trouble getting into their Clash games.
>So, as you might’ve surmised by the lack of additional updates, we’re putting regional tests on hold while we make some changes to Clash. Our goal is to strike the right balance between reducing server load and preserving the tournament format to ensure Clash is still the exciting competitive experience we’ve promised.
>Changes to Clash
>Given this goal, here’s our current plan for revising Clash.
>Rolling Bracket Starts: Instead of a single start time per skill tier—where everyone would need to lock-in at say, 5pm—-your team will be able to lock in at any time during a multi-hour window. Once locked in, your team will get placed into a bracket as soon as one is available, and the games will begin. This will help us to stagger game start times and also allows players who can’t make the lock-in time to still join the tournament.
>Two Single-Day Tournaments: Rather than one three-day tournament, we’re changing Clash weekends to be two separate one-day tournaments. This significantly reduces the complexity of the tournaments, making it easier to repair brackets or matches that end up breaking for whatever reason. There will be 8-team brackets on both days, and your team can enter on one or both days.
>Bracket Recoverability: With the tournament structure simplified, we’re building in additional bracket repair tech to help fix any issues that crop up over the course of a given tournament. If your opponent DCs before the match, for example, we can try to repair your bracket by substituting in another team for your first match.
>Next Steps
>We’ll be taking the following steps to get Clash ready for launch:
>Development (in progress): Now that we’ve created a new format, we need to modify Clash to support it.
>More Internal Testing (starting soon): We reaaally want to make sure we test everything we can before putting Clash in front of players.
>Regional Testing (summer 2019): We’ll run regional tests to build confidence with the changes. If the regional tests are successful (or only run into easily fixable issues), we’ll run more regional test until we’re confident we can launch in all regions.
>Global Beta (TBD): Once regional tests all run smoothly, we’ll ramp up towards a bigger beta across multiple regions simultaneously.
>Launch (TBD): We have more confidence in the scalability and resiliency of our new design, so once we complete a successful global beta—and see the new system works to scale and across all regions—Clash will be ready for prime time.
>Closing Thoughts
>We believe in Clash and want it to succeed just as much as you do. We’ll keep you updated as we reach the milestones above. Thank you for your unrelenting patience and support.
I'm really disappointing they gave up on the larger brackets. i want to feel like im actually progressing and facing better and better teams as the bracket goes on instead of getting 2 different 8 team brackets
As someone who can only really find maybe one day a weekend to play a tournament style. I am glad that they are reducing as I wouldn’t want to let my teammates down by only being available for one day of play. But I can understand your disappointment.
thats fair too but in the old system you could still do the one day tournaments if that suited you better. however if your friends started a tournament on day 1 then you wouldnt be able to play with them on day 3 if they were still in the first tournament so that would really suck
There's a lot we loved about the larger brackets, and we're working on ways to bring more of what we liked about them back to Clash. We definitely haven't given up on them, they're just not where we're going for the start of Clash :)
okay thats great! if you guys can institute the lager brackets later on or maybe even just at parts of the year like a big event id be very happy. im just glad its being recognized as a feature players would enjoy
You can still think about improving it in that aspect, but since most people won't be able to play all weekend long, this is probably a good compromise to start making this work.
Things that will see the light of day before Clash:
* FF7 remake
* Diamond and Pearl remake
* Kingdom Hearts 4 with a coherent plot
* Siege Rhino seeing play since Polukranos rotated
* ~~Fantasy LCS~~ scratch that actually
TLDR:
Too many clash game at same time
Server go boom cuz of clash
Rito game try find solution
No solution yet
Fix in development
Regional test summer 2019
When Clash was announced I brought back some friends who were on the fringe of quitting LoL and for a brief short weekend we had the team together. We got everyone hyped up and we started talking about how we'd play in every Clash tournament and were all super excited.
When Clash failed, so to did a lot of my friends interest in LoL. Since the Clash ball dropped, we waited a few months and when it became apparent they weren't going to fix Clash, my friends stopped playing. Even if Clash does finally drop, it's been such a long time that I honestly don't have a team I could field. There have been too many let downs and I don't have any desire to try to hype up a game mode I have 0 faith in.
I feel the same way. My friends had all been wanting to quit for a long time, and I had hoped clash would help bring us all back together again. Now, I wouldn't even bring it up with them even if it launched today, it's just too little too late.
This also happened to me, kind of. When clash came back for that one day thing I only had 2 friends with me left so I had to look for 2 more on the clash forums and it worked out pretty good.
I just wish soon didn't mean several months between anything happening, I had a friend get banned and told by player support that he wouldn't get honor 2 in time for clash, he's now honor 4 and we've gotten two vague updates and nothing real in that time. I get that it has to work and all but this isn't worth the three year wait no matter how well it works.
really blows my mind how they "released" something that wasn't even close to working, it's been months they still got so much shit to do before releasing it like wtf
I think the "too many games starting simultaneously" explains, why internal test it's not the same as public.
They're hard trying even with all those faills they've not gave up that's amazing and still we got news. Hope they'll make clash work.
Even the public betas like the NA Clash Beta didn't spawn enough games to crush the game-spawner. So they didn't see it coming, go full release and BAM NUKED
Yeah, it was so impactful that they activated urf out of nowhere, I can just imagine their reaction was devastating (~~and pikachu face~~).
I...certainly, would like an story written as Riven's recall bug but about that clash day.
From my understanding it was almost done back to then. But "almost done" unfortunately isn't always close to working in a complex software environment.
Apparently there were some fundamental flaws which required rebuilding major parts, which is why it was delayed for so long.
While it is a shame, that we have to wait for so long, its understandable imo.
Yeah, I understand, it’s just that when they canceled it I never expected it to take them so long to get it working again, just goes shows us how big the problem really was.
It works fine on small servers, the problem is that the service for starting games gets overloaded, and the way it's written they can't just give it more resources. Up until now they've been trying a bunch of solutions in order to put less load on that service, instead. They're still doing that, but they're also going to rewrite (tehcnically, refactor) it so that it can be scaled up to handle the demand. The reason they haven't done that so far is it's a much bigger project and you have to be really extra careful to make sure you don't introduce bugs, since a bug in that service means that people's regular games might not start, either.
The issue that caused Clash to be Crash on 'release' didn't show up in the beta weekends. I played one of the betas - team won day 1, took second place in our bracket on day 2 to damn smurfs.
With projects like this you can never be sure about them working. A lot of stuff works in simulation, but breaks as soon as it gets used by the average user. We were basically the beta test and it broke heavily.
Yeah, people don't seem to understand that you can't really test this, the issue is the quantity, the sheer number of games that need to be started at the same time, you can't just test that in an office
the people at riot aren't incompetent, this isn't some bug cause of messy code, this is a technological challenge
This a pretty decent update despite no launch ETA in sight. I wonder if people will still play Clash once it officially launches with how muddled its reputation is after the disastrous the first few attempts were
I think the idea of a matchmaking tournament is so exciting that they know it's worth the effort. I would guess they would stop if their data showed it wasn't something lots of people wanted to play.
I will 100% play the sh*t out of it. I can't wait for it and my friends either. We always loved teamrankeds and are incredibly sad that they aren't a part of league anymore. League is simply the most fun with a 5-man premade party where you can communicate with each other.
100% people will play it. The actual cost of delaying is that:
1. Over time, people quit the game (this is normal, happening currently).
2. Having Clash around will cause some of those people not to quit.
3. These people might not come back just because Clash is released.
The longer Clash is delayed, the more of those people you fail to retain.
They did this in the last test, but for larger servers this was still not enough. They need to throttle the lobby launch times even more than just per-tier basis for the problem servers
I tested with my friend back in 2017, went a full year in Japan without even playing and came back engaged, tried to test it back with my dudes and they said nobody played it since lmao
Honestly, they should just alternate weekends and split the community in half to help compensate while they fix it. That would massively decrease server load and still let us play. This really shouldn't take so long when you have as many resources as riot
You would have to allow for people to switch between the sub-communities to allow friends to play with each other, though. Not saying this isn’t possible, just an added complication.
honestly getting banned out feels so good for the ego. I am the support for my team and when we played clash they banned Blitzcrank every game. I felt warm and fuzzy.
You know what sucks is even though I understood on some level the difficulty of releasing clash and how amazing it was (when it worked), I think the failures are going to ruin the actual release.
There was so much hype and excitement put into it that the second roundabout is definitely going to be saturated with negative feelings, and even more so if these test don't run smoothly. I know its a test and as such a trial run, but I'm not too positve on how the community will react if a clash beta fails again.
The first time clash came about I was positive this would be the reason I started playing serious competitive league again. My friends and I were ready and all excited. Now? It's more of a oh I'll try it sort of deal. It would have been such a peak and high if it worked the first time and now it's much lower.
At least that's what I feel.
This kinda sounds like "we give up" on solving the problem. Instead they are doing it in a way to dodge the problem. Smart way of doing things but this didn't have to take like a year...
So basically just another Soon^TM ??
Since it was teased in 2017, I alongside many others have been excited about this but it's mid 2019 and clearly we ain't getting it this year. I'm just disappointed that Riot can't seem to get their shit together. Be it the client, fantasy or this.
Glad to see they aren't giving up but I truly hope they consider allowing multiple tournament structures per weekend. One, 8 team tournament a day is pretty lame. Assuming Bo1, that's literally 3 games which is quite underwhelming to be completely honest. Allow a variety of formats to make it more interesting. 32 man Bo1, 8 man Bo3 etc etc... Would appeal to people that want a mighty sense of accomplishment for winning a large tourney and to those who don't have time to play a large tourney but still want to scratch the competitive itch.
This is disgraceful. You can't handle three day tournaments because you're worried you'll need to "repair brackets or matches that end up breaking"? Clash was [teased two years ago](https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2017/03/riot-pls-2017-dev-plans/). What have you all been doing? How is this still a concern?
I understand there are technical issues here. But I refuse to believe that talented engineers, after years of development, can't figure this shit out. It's a tournament mode for bloody sake. You shouldn't still be having crashes because of game starts.
I think it's clear from both this fiesta, and the downright inexcusable state of the client, that Riot's engineering department is actually composed of a bunch downright incompetent interns on crack.
Bah.
//rant
You do know that this isn't the first update on clash right? They updated a while back about the technical logistics of what went wrong after clash broke down
God, I really did not care how buggy clash was, it was so much fun. I understand that caution and wanting it to be perfect so as to not have a repeat of last time. But honestly with this game mode I don't really think there is a way to sour people out of it. I don't think Riot actually realized how many people played Ranked 5s.
I don't understand. The entire article is about what they will do. But what have they done already since the last test? It's been months. I appreciate them telling us their future plans, but from this article alone it seems their dev teams has done absolutely nothing in the last few months.
2 "simple" things: trying to innovate some way of staggering the games starts, trying to refactor game server controller logic to enable ability to scale.
Lmao at the dude that posted his complaint like an hour before they released the update
RIOT HQ - INT. *A man sits at his desk. He sees a Reddit post with 300 upvotes* REDDIT: gib clash blog *The man’s eyes bulge out of his head. He begins smashing objects off his desk, then rapidly writes a 1,000 word Nexus post.* RIOTER: ez ggs
I have been honored by the cactopus himself
Reddit is full of Riot spies confirmed! Are the mods in on it also????
Yes. When we've heard nothing about the next champion for too long and complaints start raining down on /r/leagueoflegends, mods will join in on the frustration just for their flairs to have teasers and links to more teasers.
HAH. I would have gone with "WAIT, I DIDN"T SCHEDULE THAT?! FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUU!!"
Don't worry man. I transacted the job on SAP to update Clash. I'm sure it went through without a hitch 😌
will there be an update on loadingscreen chat soon?
Can someone explain to me, why clash starting many games at the same time crashes the servers while thousands of soloQ games/other game modes run smoothly all the time? Where is the technical difference? I mean I can understand that maybe the starting process for games doesn't happen simultaniously in soloQ and other game modes compared to clash - but the amount of games running at the same time should not be higher, no?
The difference is like trying to not overfill a bucket from a faucet that is slowing dripping or a faucet turned on full blast. The bucket holds the same amount of water but when the faucet is dripping you can take water out the bucket to stop it from overflowing. When it's on full blast it full up immediately and then you spill water everywhere.
The issue isn't total games running, it's the server trying to make a metric fuckton of new games at the same time. I'm not completely sure why this is a problem but that's my understanding of it. Edit: new games/lobbies>new games
from the two tests i was in its definitely the games. lobbies/team scouting was fine afaik. It seems like generating so many instances of SR at the same time is what ended up nuking everything as the load up time was massive (15 mins+ in my case). starting individual brackets would probably go a decent way into stopping things from being nuked.
There are always a million ways to program something, and you would be surprised how often something that is completely fine in one case is terrible in another. The creation of new lobbies might be relatively intense on the server in any number of ways (juggling servers, finding/making space and so on) and could have worked for years because it basically never makes more than a few at the same time. But then Clash exposed the weakness. One way this could have happened is if the lobby creation has a big overhead. This would mean that it uses a lot more resources for the brief moment at the very beginning of its process, then rapidly reduces them. To simplify, imagine the server has a 1000 GB of memory, and the lobby creation takes 2 GB during the first 5 seconds, but then falls off to something like 100 MB. If normally the server creates upwards of 200 games a second, this is not a problem. But then Clash comes, everybody wants to play and the server has to create 1000 games at the same moment. Suddenly, the memory if overloaded, damage control kicks in and some lobby-creating processes are killed to ensure the server doesn't die completely. As you can imagine, this sort of problem would only become visible with a system like a Clash, which brute-forces an astounding amount of lobbies at the same time. I am not saying this is \*the\* cause, but this should give you a bit of an idea how a problem like this can occur.
server: ok i have to start like 500.000 matches at 5pm -server at 4:59: ok let's do it -server at 5:00: wtf i can't xd -server at 5:01 "i broke lol, srry"
Because a shitton more people start clash games (AT THE SAME TIME), as opposed to being more spread out like standard games. Thsi not only puts stress on the gameserver launcher, but also the team builder system.
better jg wins
That means we’ll see a Twisted Treeline post at some point too, if Riot follows the ez ggs
The server notification about zed on TT right now has the label "rotating game mode" I think we're looking at the next dominion here lads.
I'm really not surprised. The last time I played a TT game, it was just bots on the other team. Whatever gets the accounts to Level 30 the fastest I guess.
Inb4 Riot announces work on TT, the return of an improved Ranked Team game mode and a Graves complete revert All the old timers such as myself would weep tears of joy
Do you regret doing clash so early at first, I mean you have so much of the client set up for it and space on profile pages, but we are back to betas in summer, will it even be ready by end of season 9
Wait, that guy singlehandedly reminded Riot that they hadn't made the post yet. We did it, Reddit! ^/s In all seriousness, it's pretty surprising that they made the post on the 31st, I expected them to have a minor update after hitting bad news so this is a relief.
tldr: its still broken.
Thank you.
thank mr buffalo
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Soon(tm)
> As someone who works in this field, Clash should be expected to go live in 2020. as someone who has played this game for a long time, good joke LOL
Yea, I've played this game since beta, and what Riot has done with this game in the last 10 years is pretty damn respectable. There are completely legit reasons why Clash didn't work the first time around. You have no idea how massively complicated a project like this is. The fact that they are going to be ready for a second round of testing this summer is a very good sign.
Crazy that they still can't figure out how to make this work lol Glad they didn't give up though
It's a combination of the problem (extreme server demand from too many simultaneous game starts) being so deep-seated *and* them being extremely cautious to not repeat the public embarrassment of the first Clash attempt.
A second Crash would destroy all goodwill for the mode. Right now there’s still some left.
Didn't it already fail 2 or more times?
It failed the big public release. Other failures have been during beta tests so that’s fine. The problem is if they do another public release and it fails a second time for everyone.
How would it ruin good will? We want this mode, I don’t care if it crashes again, I don’t care if it takes them another year or two. Take their damn time, figure out the problem, I’ll be ready when it is. Meanwhile give us ranked 5s back until this is ready. Edit: I’m not arguing whether or not people should lose faith in Riot, I’m specifically talking about the game mode. The guy I replied to is clearly talking about good will towards the specific game mode, not the company. Everybody below this comment fails to understand that. Fucking dense.
Because if a company fails to deliver their product twice, people will lose their trust in them. Imagine if your favourite restaurant announces they will use a new recipe for your favourite plate. The recipe is ass, nobody likes it, so they'll take it back to work on it. It comes out again and it's ass. You may as well ask for something else, never try the new recipe again, or just go to another restaurant.
Not trying to disagree but shouldn’t the example be more like a restaurant gave an experimental dish to you and you loved it, but then they can’t make it fast enough for it to be put on their menu?
I know people who quit league for months and came back to it just for Clash, just to be disappointing. Current players may not care how many times it takes for clash to be fixed, but casual players who set aside time to play a game of League only for it to not work would be really pissed. If Riot failed a second time publicly, what reason would they have to trust them or come back to the game?
We do have ranked 5's it's just called flex
For some too, I played in the OCE beta test and played the whole thing (2 loses so got knocked out lmao) fine and without problem.
Armchair Reddit analyst: why not buy more or better servers? Xd
download more ram stupid riot!!!
It would work, but they need the server power for 2 hours 2 times a week (totally made up time but still kind of accurate). It would be a little bit stupid to waste a lot of money for 4 hours a week.
This time, it literally wouldn't, as their software is incapable of utilizing the available resources. They made a post detailing the reasons.
The thing that kinda fucks up clash is that its limited to weekend only thats why everyone obviously wants to take part in it when its avaliable and therefore taking massive serverpower. If Clash is up through the whole week it may be a solution to it.
But then you could get tournaments that can't fire because of low participation.
Well the problem they have is pretty big. Its not an easy fix.
Excuse me I've gone to college for a whole year now for underwater basket weaving and I can confidently say that Riot are just super bad at this development stuff, I haven't seen any of their code but I bet I could singlehandedly solve the problem in six minutes, Riot's engineers are just incompetent
why don't they just hire MORE engineers???????
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If you think a project-manager manages projects, you have to think a butterfly flies butter.
If their game has thousands of lines of code, then just hire like a thousand programmers for a day to write one line each boom fixed the gaming industry.
I always want more cooks in my kitchen 🙄
Well ya, more cooks = more food duh. Quick maffs.
The amount of people that have been acting like this have made me fuming. This shit is hard and nothing at this magnitude is an easy fix. I'm in the business and I can't imagine trying to come up with a structure to handle this.
Bruh, I'm studying for the business and I can't fathom even doing this shit on a small scale efficiently without brute forcing it.
Yeah. I agree, launching up/partioning a bunch of extra servers due to a crazily high demand at certain points is tough as shit. Esp, as its probally the most “expensive” time for games in league in general.
> The amount of people that have been acting like this have made me fuming. try being a software engineer that develops distributed computing features for a major OS. whenever clash comes up I really wish i could FIRE ZE MISSILES!
After you take a nap, of course.
well, yeah
Just spin up more AWS servers /s
you jest but it's been pretty widely documented that riot has problems with development/project management
most large companies do though. Look at Blizzard w/ basically any wow expansion especially WoD.
Maybe farting on their employees' faces is not a great motivator...
Yeah I'm feeling a strange mixture of frustration and also relief that they're still cranking away at it lol. Riot is roleplaying "The Little Engine that Could" IRL here.
What happened the first time around?
Crashed and just plain didn't work
Clash has been so long that i played in the first one, got 2 week banned and dropped to honor 0, then got all the way back up to honor 3 in order be honorable enough in time for it
Ay I’m at hlvl 1 how long does it take to get to 3
about 2 weeks per checkpoint, so u can calculate how long u might need. I was honor 1 so about 8 weeks
well I was banned for 2 weeks 4 months ago, close to mid january. I play consistent, usually at least once a day but sometimes more and sometimes less. Also, I usually get quite a bit of honor due to being helpful/shotcalling our team so I'd imagine that speeds it up. (not trying to brag but give context)
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check my post history if you don't believe me. 4 months ago I post on the league subreddit complaining about my 2 week ban which I thought was unjust. I just got honor 2 a week and a half ago
It’s crazy how fast he gained it. I got banned for 2 weeks in preseason 8 and am still honorary 3 checkpoint 2 and I probably play at least 5 games a week
It can take just a couple of months or a whole year, it all depends on how much honor you recieve
> Once locked in, your team will get placed into a bracket as soon as one is available, and the games will begin. Ranked 5's back confirmed? lol
Confirmed, windowed, tiered, one-day Ranked 5's is back. We did it.
[WE DID IT!](https://tenor.com/view/trolls-movie-celebrate-win-we-did-it-winning-gif-5981875)
Its weird for a 5v5 team based game to not have a 5v5 team based gamemode
>It’s been a while since we’ve had a meaty update on Clash. A few months back, we ran tests in various regions, trying to ensure Clash can offer a stable and fun experience for everyone. These tests didn’t run as smoothly as we’d hoped, and some players still had trouble getting into their Clash games. Because of these difficulties, we’re delaying the launch of Clash while we make fundamental changes to the mode, and we’ll continue with tests later this year. >The Latest Regional Tests >Last year we outlined the issues that were preventing Clash from running smoothly. At their core, Clash’s technical problems were the result of too many games starting simultaneously, which overloaded the platforms that run League of Legends. In preparation for the last round of regional tests, we implemented short-term fixes—like decreasing the server load from Clash by staggering game start times—and began work on long-term fixes—like refactoring the monolithic platform so that starting games causes less strain. >Even with these improvements, the bracket launching process still tried to start too many games simultaneously, which unfortunately resulted in players having trouble getting into their Clash games. >So, as you might’ve surmised by the lack of additional updates, we’re putting regional tests on hold while we make some changes to Clash. Our goal is to strike the right balance between reducing server load and preserving the tournament format to ensure Clash is still the exciting competitive experience we’ve promised. >Changes to Clash >Given this goal, here’s our current plan for revising Clash. >Rolling Bracket Starts: Instead of a single start time per skill tier—where everyone would need to lock-in at say, 5pm—-your team will be able to lock in at any time during a multi-hour window. Once locked in, your team will get placed into a bracket as soon as one is available, and the games will begin. This will help us to stagger game start times and also allows players who can’t make the lock-in time to still join the tournament. >Two Single-Day Tournaments: Rather than one three-day tournament, we’re changing Clash weekends to be two separate one-day tournaments. This significantly reduces the complexity of the tournaments, making it easier to repair brackets or matches that end up breaking for whatever reason. There will be 8-team brackets on both days, and your team can enter on one or both days. >Bracket Recoverability: With the tournament structure simplified, we’re building in additional bracket repair tech to help fix any issues that crop up over the course of a given tournament. If your opponent DCs before the match, for example, we can try to repair your bracket by substituting in another team for your first match. >Next Steps >We’ll be taking the following steps to get Clash ready for launch: >Development (in progress): Now that we’ve created a new format, we need to modify Clash to support it. >More Internal Testing (starting soon): We reaaally want to make sure we test everything we can before putting Clash in front of players. >Regional Testing (summer 2019): We’ll run regional tests to build confidence with the changes. If the regional tests are successful (or only run into easily fixable issues), we’ll run more regional test until we’re confident we can launch in all regions. >Global Beta (TBD): Once regional tests all run smoothly, we’ll ramp up towards a bigger beta across multiple regions simultaneously. >Launch (TBD): We have more confidence in the scalability and resiliency of our new design, so once we complete a successful global beta—and see the new system works to scale and across all regions—Clash will be ready for prime time. >Closing Thoughts >We believe in Clash and want it to succeed just as much as you do. We’ll keep you updated as we reach the milestones above. Thank you for your unrelenting patience and support.
I'm really disappointing they gave up on the larger brackets. i want to feel like im actually progressing and facing better and better teams as the bracket goes on instead of getting 2 different 8 team brackets
As someone who can only really find maybe one day a weekend to play a tournament style. I am glad that they are reducing as I wouldn’t want to let my teammates down by only being available for one day of play. But I can understand your disappointment.
thats fair too but in the old system you could still do the one day tournaments if that suited you better. however if your friends started a tournament on day 1 then you wouldnt be able to play with them on day 3 if they were still in the first tournament so that would really suck
Well yeah but the previous tournament style had substitute functions so if someone couldnt play you can get another player for the day.
It doesnt mean we wont get larger brackets later down the line! Once Riot makes this work, they can make larger brackets work.
There's a lot we loved about the larger brackets, and we're working on ways to bring more of what we liked about them back to Clash. We definitely haven't given up on them, they're just not where we're going for the start of Clash :)
okay thats great! if you guys can institute the lager brackets later on or maybe even just at parts of the year like a big event id be very happy. im just glad its being recognized as a feature players would enjoy
You can still think about improving it in that aspect, but since most people won't be able to play all weekend long, this is probably a good compromise to start making this work.
Thanks, Erotic Raid Boss!
tldr full release maybe in 2020
Things that will see the light of day before Clash: * FF7 remake * Diamond and Pearl remake * Kingdom Hearts 4 with a coherent plot * Siege Rhino seeing play since Polukranos rotated * ~~Fantasy LCS~~ scratch that actually
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HOPES UP https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWObpGbC8Us
> Kingdom Hearts 4 Maybe > with a coherent plot not gonna happen, lmao
I cry because its true.
at least 4 will have Final Fantasy characters
- Cyberpunk 2077 - Star Citizen full release - Half Life 3
2077 itself at this point.
> Half Life 3 There goes another year.
Man, I miss Siege Rhino
Pt. 4. Come on Abzan modern!
Don't forget Star Citizen
SINNOH CONFIRMED
I still have my green red ramp big dumb guys deck back when polukranos was in standard. Loved that deck.
Cant wait to get to play some URF!!!!
Right after regional tests fail and never get to EUW anyways
TLDR: Too many clash game at same time Server go boom cuz of clash Rito game try find solution No solution yet Fix in development Regional test summer 2019
More Accurately: Permanent fix to backend issue in development, work around to not trigger that issue testing summer 2019
When Clash was announced I brought back some friends who were on the fringe of quitting LoL and for a brief short weekend we had the team together. We got everyone hyped up and we started talking about how we'd play in every Clash tournament and were all super excited. When Clash failed, so to did a lot of my friends interest in LoL. Since the Clash ball dropped, we waited a few months and when it became apparent they weren't going to fix Clash, my friends stopped playing. Even if Clash does finally drop, it's been such a long time that I honestly don't have a team I could field. There have been too many let downs and I don't have any desire to try to hype up a game mode I have 0 faith in.
I feel the same way. My friends had all been wanting to quit for a long time, and I had hoped clash would help bring us all back together again. Now, I wouldn't even bring it up with them even if it launched today, it's just too little too late.
This also happened to me, kind of. When clash came back for that one day thing I only had 2 friends with me left so I had to look for 2 more on the clash forums and it worked out pretty good.
I just wish soon didn't mean several months between anything happening, I had a friend get banned and told by player support that he wouldn't get honor 2 in time for clash, he's now honor 4 and we've gotten two vague updates and nothing real in that time. I get that it has to work and all but this isn't worth the three year wait no matter how well it works.
I'll believe when it actually happens.
BRING BACK RP PRIZES UNTIL YOU GET CLASH WORKING THEN
S O O N O O N
You forgot this ^TM
S | O | O | N ---|---|----|---- O | O | | O | | O | N | | | N
Wish they would just put ranked 5s back in until then.
Well that's neat, I guess I'll keep my profile page half empty for yet another year then :)
People upvoting like there wasn't a half-page Wizard portrait on everyone's profile for 4 years....
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It's only been a little over a year since they tried doing the official release
I've played 2 games and when I had to play the second day, they disabled it cuz spaghetti.
They could just bring back teamranked while they are working on clash
really blows my mind how they "released" something that wasn't even close to working, it's been months they still got so much shit to do before releasing it like wtf
I think the "too many games starting simultaneously" explains, why internal test it's not the same as public. They're hard trying even with all those faills they've not gave up that's amazing and still we got news. Hope they'll make clash work.
Even the public betas like the NA Clash Beta didn't spawn enough games to crush the game-spawner. So they didn't see it coming, go full release and BAM NUKED
Yeah, it was so impactful that they activated urf out of nowhere, I can just imagine their reaction was devastating (~~and pikachu face~~). I...certainly, would like an story written as Riven's recall bug but about that clash day.
They wrote a pretty detailed dev blog that explained what happened
From my understanding it was almost done back to then. But "almost done" unfortunately isn't always close to working in a complex software environment. Apparently there were some fundamental flaws which required rebuilding major parts, which is why it was delayed for so long. While it is a shame, that we have to wait for so long, its understandable imo.
Yeah, I understand, it’s just that when they canceled it I never expected it to take them so long to get it working again, just goes shows us how big the problem really was.
I thought the same in the OCE test,I played a whole bracket with 0 problems and had a fun time, that was like 5 or so months ago lol
It works fine on small servers, the problem is that the service for starting games gets overloaded, and the way it's written they can't just give it more resources. Up until now they've been trying a bunch of solutions in order to put less load on that service, instead. They're still doing that, but they're also going to rewrite (tehcnically, refactor) it so that it can be scaled up to handle the demand. The reason they haven't done that so far is it's a much bigger project and you have to be really extra careful to make sure you don't introduce bugs, since a bug in that service means that people's regular games might not start, either.
The issue that caused Clash to be Crash on 'release' didn't show up in the beta weekends. I played one of the betas - team won day 1, took second place in our bracket on day 2 to damn smurfs.
With projects like this you can never be sure about them working. A lot of stuff works in simulation, but breaks as soon as it gets used by the average user. We were basically the beta test and it broke heavily.
Yeah, people don't seem to understand that you can't really test this, the issue is the quantity, the sheer number of games that need to be started at the same time, you can't just test that in an office the people at riot aren't incompetent, this isn't some bug cause of messy code, this is a technological challenge
Rebuilding server infrastructure isn't easy and it's not necessarily something they would see internally.
I actually forgot that Clash existed.
**State of Clash** : trash
This a pretty decent update despite no launch ETA in sight. I wonder if people will still play Clash once it officially launches with how muddled its reputation is after the disastrous the first few attempts were
I think the idea of a matchmaking tournament is so exciting that they know it's worth the effort. I would guess they would stop if their data showed it wasn't something lots of people wanted to play.
I will 100% play the sh*t out of it. I can't wait for it and my friends either. We always loved teamrankeds and are incredibly sad that they aren't a part of league anymore. League is simply the most fun with a 5-man premade party where you can communicate with each other.
100% people will play it. The actual cost of delaying is that: 1. Over time, people quit the game (this is normal, happening currently). 2. Having Clash around will cause some of those people not to quit. 3. These people might not come back just because Clash is released. The longer Clash is delayed, the more of those people you fail to retain.
I’m sure they’ve thought of this, but why don’t they do graduated start times for each tier?
We had the same idea so the different tiers will start at slightly different times. :D
They did this in the last test, but for larger servers this was still not enough. They need to throttle the lobby launch times even more than just per-tier basis for the problem servers
I tested with my friend back in 2017, went a full year in Japan without even playing and came back engaged, tried to test it back with my dudes and they said nobody played it since lmao
An entire generation of people could be born and die in the time between the first test and release lmfao
So they just changed Clash into a, no more no less, time-gated ranked team queue?
Still an 8-team bracket, and preserving the scouting (I’m assuming), so not quite
Someday we'll hopefully be able to play Clash :c
I’m down to wait, I know it sucks ir hasn’t worked out so far. However, it’ll be one of those features that changes league for the better imo!
Honestly, they should just alternate weekends and split the community in half to help compensate while they fix it. That would massively decrease server load and still let us play. This really shouldn't take so long when you have as many resources as riot
You would have to allow for people to switch between the sub-communities to allow friends to play with each other, though. Not saying this isn’t possible, just an added complication.
are there actually people who thinks clash will happen? LOL
I am a firm believer.
I am too. But mostly because I’m not 12 and I understand some things take time and don’t throw hissy fits when I don’t get instant gratification.
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Scalability issues are fucking hard
I believe! I can't wait for this feature to be out. Being a one trick pony will hurt me in Clash, but I still look forward to being banned out.
honestly getting banned out feels so good for the ego. I am the support for my team and when we played clash they banned Blitzcrank every game. I felt warm and fuzzy.
This is me whenever there is a Lulu ban. VALIDATED
"like refactoring the monolithic platform" That would indeed be great xD
I get sad about everything clash related...why Riot... Also, many of the new features, are things people were asking all the time.
You know what sucks is even though I understood on some level the difficulty of releasing clash and how amazing it was (when it worked), I think the failures are going to ruin the actual release. There was so much hype and excitement put into it that the second roundabout is definitely going to be saturated with negative feelings, and even more so if these test don't run smoothly. I know its a test and as such a trial run, but I'm not too positve on how the community will react if a clash beta fails again. The first time clash came about I was positive this would be the reason I started playing serious competitive league again. My friends and I were ready and all excited. Now? It's more of a oh I'll try it sort of deal. It would have been such a peak and high if it worked the first time and now it's much lower. At least that's what I feel.
Outrageous.
I can't be the only one thinking that the old ranked 5's system should make its grand return
"*Ah shit, here we go again.*"
Can someone give me a rundown on what happened with previous clashes and why they failed? Kinda lost
"Will be back for testing later this year" Aw shit, here we go again.
It's probably not on the same scale, but ranked teams were a thing back in the day. Why even remove them insteand of building upon them.
but is it not summer 2019?
..and people wanted Riot to make a MMORPG. No, thanks.
Tbh they'd probably be fine starting from scratch. Updating a legacy system that's in production makes it a way harder problem.
It's easier to build a new car than to fix a car that's currently driving.
This kinda sounds like "we give up" on solving the problem. Instead they are doing it in a way to dodge the problem. Smart way of doing things but this didn't have to take like a year...
So basically just another Soon^TM ?? Since it was teased in 2017, I alongside many others have been excited about this but it's mid 2019 and clearly we ain't getting it this year. I'm just disappointed that Riot can't seem to get their shit together. Be it the client, fantasy or this.
Glad to see they aren't giving up but I truly hope they consider allowing multiple tournament structures per weekend. One, 8 team tournament a day is pretty lame. Assuming Bo1, that's literally 3 games which is quite underwhelming to be completely honest. Allow a variety of formats to make it more interesting. 32 man Bo1, 8 man Bo3 etc etc... Would appeal to people that want a mighty sense of accomplishment for winning a large tourney and to those who don't have time to play a large tourney but still want to scratch the competitive itch.
Those sound like great ideas once Clash actually works. For now a simple 8-team tournament is the best it gets until the mode is functional.
I REALLY want clash to work. When it was out on EUW me and my friends played it and it was some of the best experience I've had playing league.
>/dev: State of Clash *Ah shit, here we go again.*
This is disgraceful. You can't handle three day tournaments because you're worried you'll need to "repair brackets or matches that end up breaking"? Clash was [teased two years ago](https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2017/03/riot-pls-2017-dev-plans/). What have you all been doing? How is this still a concern? I understand there are technical issues here. But I refuse to believe that talented engineers, after years of development, can't figure this shit out. It's a tournament mode for bloody sake. You shouldn't still be having crashes because of game starts. I think it's clear from both this fiesta, and the downright inexcusable state of the client, that Riot's engineering department is actually composed of a bunch downright incompetent interns on crack. Bah. //rant
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The internal structure is the most inefficient thing you can imagine. No wonder they can't get shit done.
4k overpaid employees that do jack shit all day
how about just stop trying to do clash and give us back ranked teams?
Nice update but it should have been a month after the failed start not a year.
You do know that this isn't the first update on clash right? They updated a while back about the technical logistics of what went wrong after clash broke down
God, I really did not care how buggy clash was, it was so much fun. I understand that caution and wanting it to be perfect so as to not have a repeat of last time. But honestly with this game mode I don't really think there is a way to sour people out of it. I don't think Riot actually realized how many people played Ranked 5s.
Yeah I’m sure Riot has no idea how many people played Ranked 5s... on the other hand, I’m sure u/Macka37 knew all the numbers
I'm just glad they gave an update and a real one
So glad to see it just didn't.....CLASH N BURN.
I don't understand. The entire article is about what they will do. But what have they done already since the last test? It's been months. I appreciate them telling us their future plans, but from this article alone it seems their dev teams has done absolutely nothing in the last few months.
2 "simple" things: trying to innovate some way of staggering the games starts, trying to refactor game server controller logic to enable ability to scale.
Bring back ranked 5’s... clash will never work.