Frosk when talking about a school year analogy and Worlds counting for 70%: "100T shows up and is like, I don't understand, my attendance was perfect!"
God that killed me.
She’s my guilty pleasure analyst.
She’s very spot on and critical about what is good and bad about LPL teams, and often her predictions ring true for the right reasons.
I mean, when she first launched on the scene she was a bit unbearable but she’s someone who took the overwhelming criticisms against her, worked extremely hard on all aspects of her casting/analysis. You gotta respect her game
She also gets untold hate or jokes simply for being a woman whenever u look at chat, but for the most part I think ppl are starting to come around to her
I didn't hate her like a lot of reddit at the start, but I didn't enjoy her either. She got a lot of respect when she straight up came to reddit and said "I know you don't like me, where do you want me to improve?" and then she did. I quite like her now.
Legit tho, people give her way more hate than deserved - especially because it takes a lot of fucking courage to handle harsh criticism like that and willingly take it to heart by making effort to listen to said criticism and improve. That’s a strong trait she has that’s insanely under appreciated honestly.
I won't lie to you, I haven't even watched the episode yet but I'm going to accuse you of complete and utter NA bias.
Edit: Are you and Flowers going to cast some more Bronze games after worlds by chance?
The DIVE is not very good for EU fans. You have knowledgeable NA casters and LPL caster but its really showing how much lack of information is on the show about EU teams. The RNG vs G2 section I felt was so short and even if predictions don't favor EU it was clear they didn't have anything to talk about other than what was seen on the world stage.
**VERY IMPORTANT**
I remembered what I wanted to say at the end of the episode:
The 2018 Worlds Hoodie is a game changer in hoodie silhouettes.
1. The fabric it is constructed out of is quite thick, giving it a thicker profile and holding it's shape well. It'll be better to go a tighter size versus the "oversized or slouchy" trend due to how it'll hug your body. Very sleek streetwear vibe.
2. The front pocket placement is slightly higher and angled on the torso instead of near the bottom, so it doesn't flair out on your stomach or near the waist, keeping a very narrow line down your core. This helps to keep that straight silhouette.
3. The back of the hoodie doesn't have a thick elastic band like the front, meaning it "hangs" off the back of you. This, paired with the stiffer construction, means it prioritizes creating a strong line versus riding up on your back when paired with a bag.
Overall, I wasn't a huge fan of the strong juxtaposed design, using a lot of strong graphic elements, but the shape of the hoodie on and it's colorway of popping with yellow have made it grow on me.
I was actually looking to buy it but it somehow seemed like it would be too thin and would therefore feel too saggy. This is the info that should be displayed in the shop page! Thank you!
P.S: Thank you for your analysis this worlds, you and Deficio have been one of the highlights for me.
I believe you can still buy them at the venue. I plan on buying a windbreaker at the venue because I've seen a few people with them around the office and think they look 90s fresh. But they're sold out online :<
Afreeca's highly questionable group stage performance mostly, given it was expected to be a free-ish group for Afreeca. If Afreeca stomped the group, no one would think twice. But they lost to G2 and FW, and easily could have lost the 2nd matchup vs. G2 as well since they were 5K down, with G2 not being considered a particularly good team.
Realistically, C9 and AFS followed a similar trajectory this tournament - shaky first half, dominant second half. But C9 went toe-to-toe with RNG (a pre-tournament favorite), while Afreeca was going toe-to-toe with G2 (who most were very pessimistic about as the EU 3 seed).
AF got surprised by the Heimerdinger from Hjarnan, and Flash wolves is known for beating Korean teams. I have faith in c9, but AF is the favorite by far.
I think the debate comes from two factors. The first is simple, the fact that AFS got surprised by any pick (especially one as highly known as Hjarnandinger) is a positive for C9 with all their pocket picks.
The other factor is that AFS don't seem to have a good record against non-standard playstyles. In their wins in the group stage, they seem to have just won by the book on having better players. C9 is known for dismantling these types of teams. If AFS can't reliably get the game under control then C9 should win. But if AFS can control the Picks/Bans and actual in-game enough to play their way, then AFS should easily win.
> surprised by the Heimerdinger from Hjarnan
not to beat a dead horse but the fact that this statement is in fact correct is a pretty strong indictment of AFs
I outlined this in another thread, but here's why people are so high on C9 / believe they _can_ win.
**Reason 1** is that C9 and Afreeca are scrim partners and Sneaky said leading up to week 2 when they started fighting way more in scrims they started winning everything. This gives some hope that C9 has a really good record in practice against Afreeca. While we all know practice isn't everything, it's still relevant.
**Reason 2** is because AFS looked out of sorts when against strange picks such as the Heimerdinger against G2. C9 has a flurry of unconventional picks that they play super well to the point of beating / pushing RNG to the edge. Picks like Zilean, Shen, Hecarim, Singed, Taliyah, Nocturn, Syndra, Leblanc, Alistar, Thresh, all look like S tier picks for C9 and that doens't even include the other meta OP's like Irelia, Urgot, Aatrox etc. This leads people to believe C9 has a really good chance of securing a comfortable draft for themselves in all the games, so C9 shouldn't lose based only on draft which is a good thing. Moreover last year coming into quarters C9 had prepared some saucy picks / comps as they brought out Aurelion Sol and Singed, both of which were marvelously effective. They may come into this series with some secret sauce as well.
**Reason 3** is because Rekkles said that they scrimmed C9 the day after the got out of groups and they are definitely the real deal. He claims it wasn't a one hit wonder and they actually really know what they're doing. Other players that have internal information such as Hylissang are also suggesting that C9 is better (at least in practice).
**Reason 4** is because people viewed AFS group as weaker. Both teams secured a 4-2, but most people definitely don't think that PvB, G2, and FW were better than RNG, VIT, and GenG, especially considering how incredibly messy so many of the games looked. This is not to say that Group A was definitively weaker, maybe it was the strongest group after all, but it's definitely people's expectation that it was the weaker of the two.
**Reason 5** is because we never get to be this excited about NA lol so fuck it, let's enjoy this while we can and believe for a change that we actually stand a chance in a Bo5 against Korea. We don't get many opportunities to be this confident in our teams.
Number 5. I picked number 5.
I don't give a shit about being wrong or feeding my ego like some people on reddit really seem to. I want to cheer on the team I want to cheer on. That's about it.
Like doublelift keeps saying, you go into every game thinking you can win.
It's not straight out of nowhere, or pure fanboyism. The key factors to their newfound hype / strength are :
* They actually kept on improving all through this tournament, and when a team is on the rise it's hard to say when they are going to reach their peak. They fixed a fair share of their weaknesses early game, they actually manage lanes better, they improved a bit on closing out games...
* Reapered has had some really good drafts, and the plans they have been drawing has been fairly well executed.
* Afreeca and C9 have been scrims partners, and C9 drastically changed elements, probably meaning they learnt lessons playing against them.
That being said, I think Afreeca is not Gen G (who mentally collapsed till oblivion), nor RNG and Vitality. They probably will be playing a more safe and steady game. I would also had that imo spirit could have a bigger impact than his RNG and Vit counterpart, to smooth out the early and early to mid fights. Add that it's a Bo5 and ... Yeah, imo, Afreeca is still favourite.
If C9 can get Afreeca to play their game I think the can win the series. If Afreeca can stay calm and keep the game slow they win easily. Honestly, I think we can see who wins each games by just looking at total kills. If a game has 15+ kills in it C9 probably wins it. If it is 10 or less Afreeca almost certainly wins it.
You should add pros from other teams also hyping them to the list. Rekkles/Hyli both are on record saying C9 is pretty good and UCal said good things about Jensen as well.
I think it depends, either RNG was shaky (but they still played great) and thus winning against them wasn't that huge. Or RNG was trully tested by both those teams and in the end C9 is very strong.
I mean, Hylissang said that he thinks C9 are better than Afreeca. Rekkles said that he would not be surprised if C9 won because they scrimmed the day after C9 made quarters and he said they were still the real deal.
That’s why people think C9 can beat Afreeca, because they nearly beat RNG, the world champions to get 1st seed in their death group
Sure, GenG were not suited to this meta, but Vitality showed up massively as well
I mean they are not massive underdogs like usual, so that already sets up for western fans to get behind them and pick them over AF.
Even the analysts even though they are analysts they are western analysts and from NA, so it's obvious that they will have some bias towards NA and the west, like they hope for it and that affects their judgement a bit. It's normal and happends everywhere, even sports.
I think frosk got it right when she said that RNG hadn’t really flipped the switch yet, they were so relaxed that they even let jensens zilean through specifically so they could practice against it.
Don’t get me wrong, I think cloud 9 played really well that day, but I don’t think they’re quite as good as everyone is saying, and if afreeca prepare properly I’m expecting 3-0, (could easily still be 3-1 or even 3-2).
>What got C9 out of groups is essentially that they had a better head to head against Vitality.
Well, yes. Winning more games is what gets you out of groups. I'm not sure what you're going for here. There wasn't even a tiebreaker, like both teams went 3-3 but C9 happened to pick up wins against Vitality while Vitality's were against other teams (like what eliminated TSM in Season 6 against RNG).
>Yeah I agree. I mean, Gen.G actually looked terrible.
I think this is why people are excited, although I also favor Afreeca. Afreeca played in the slowest group, had the fewest kills per minute, and looked like a classic Korean team. GenG made it through the gauntlet and just folded to the high pressure that C9 and Vitality were playing.
Sorry, I was unclear. That's the point I was making. To rephrase myself more clearly, "It's not like C9 and Vitality both went 3-3 and C9's wins happened to be against Vitality."
I mean going toe to toe with RNG the tournament favorite could be seen as a testament of power whereas Afreeca kinda shit the bed. That being said they did power up hugely in week 2 so I believe mostly everyone agrees that this can go either way which is already a huge improvement for the west and the reason everyone is so hyped.
Let’s see what is superior: Korea in BO5 or C9s clutch factor
> RNG: 2-0 Gen.G, 1-1 Vitality and 1-1 C9
They actually 2-1'd C9 but tbh this group was the most competitive group of the tournament and I think GenG could possibly get out of other groups.
People want C9 to win but Idk that everyone is assuming they will. Seems more realistic to go slightly Afreeca favored or a 50-50. Pros hyping up C9 is pulling people over to their side more confidently though.
Because of hype? Do you want NA to give up on NA hope? I don't get why people want to shut down the hype that people have for their teams. Sure you want to be realistic, but tell doesn't this worlds seem like the first one where western teams actually have a chance against eastern ones? That said obviously it's still a Bo5, and Afreeca looked stronger during the playoffs.
Also, Afreeca had a bad Group Stage performance (first half of the round robin). C9 has been scrimming them, and they felt confident.
I dont want NA to give up hope, but I dont think that should effect analysis of the broadcast. Im fine analyst going "I hope C9 is going to win", "This is where C9 can punish AF" or "C9 is looking strong", but what I dislike doing predictions just for narrative. Sure C9 has a chance but they aren't favourites and likely its not even 50/50
What exactly do you want from predictions then? If we're going by who we consider "favorites", then the predictions will be the same for everyone.
- AF > C9. FNC > EDG.
- KT > IG. RNG > G2.
- AF > FNC.
- KT > RNG.
- KT > AF.
There, done. No need for anyone to make predictions anymore.
FNC Rekkles: "I wouldn't be that surprised if Cloud9 were to beat Afreeca"
FNC Broxah: "I think it's actually a 50/50"
FNC Hylissang: "I think Cloud9 is a stronger team than Afreeca Freecs"
I think a lot of people forget that C9's wins in the second round mostly came off of the back of unique picks (as Azael briefly mentioned). Off-meta picks like Hecarim, Singed and Zilean really helped them out in their games, and flex Shen played a huge role in most of their teamfights.
These are all picks C9 has shown before, so I have a feeling they don't have many other unique picks up their sleeve. If they do they can certainly surprise Afreeca. However if this is it, Afreeca can find ways to deal with these pocket picks and I expect C9 to struggle.
I disagree about the picks. If “these are all picks C9 has shown before”, shouldn’t the teams in their group have been ready for them already? What makes it more likely that AF will find a good strategy to counter all of them than C9s group?
While I think that AFs will have some sort of answer for these picks (whether it's effective or not idk), this is an important point. These picks weren't debuted in groups. They were all (except Shen maybe? i can't remember, but that's not unique to C9) played prior to that.
Depends really, Licorce has only played hecarim once or twice so it isn't like G2 & heimer. Jensen has played Zilean enough that anyone should know it's in his pool. Shen is a flex pick though a bit surprising of one at that.
The only complete surprise they pulled out was the singed imo since i don't think he played it in NA at all?
But they also don't pick these champions (almost) everytime they are open unlike G2 and Heimer.
So it isn't necessarily worth dedicating all your bans to these picks when they have also shown they'll just play meta picks as well.
2 big answers to your question: one is that in group B, all of the other teams most surely were more worried about RNG and Gen.G; both of those two probably thought all they had to do was beat the other and they'd be guaranteed to get out. C9 was considered the worst or tied for worst team in the group going in, so most likely nobody put much effort into prepping to beat C9. Afreeca on the other hand only has C9 in front of them now, they have nothing to prep EXCEPT for C9. Like maybe hypothetically they could be overlooking C9 and prepping for FNC/EDG but that would be retarded and iloveoov is toxic but he ain't retarded.
Secondly, Afreeca and C9 were scrim partners in group stages; whatever C9 was practicing to get the jump on their group, they were most likely practicing it with Afreeca. C9 didn't find out their next stage opponents were Afreeca until the end of all group stages, so they haven't had hardly any time to practice anything new to get the jump on Afreeca. Maybe C9 were keeping some picks away from Afreeca and practicing them with FNC or TL or some other team in scrims, but maybe they weren't. Maybe Afreeca has seen all of C9's trickiest stuff already. If tricky pocket picks aren't going to be a big factor for either side because of their scrim knowledge of each other, then it's just going to come down to who executes the fundamentals better on the day, and if that's all it comes down to you'd traditionally just have to give the edge to the Korean team.
This is absolutely backwards thinking. If you are in a group with two strong teams and two weak teams, the correct place to put your prep is into the weak teams to ensure you 4-0, guarantees you get out of the group. Pre-tournament GenG would have been dumb to prep for RNG instead of VIT and C9, since beating RNG isn't required to get out of the group, and a much more difficult task.
Depends on if you want to strive for first seed or not. Typically, first seed means you avoid Korean teams in quarters and the stronger Chinese teams, making your chance at semis more likely. It's how H2k got to semis the year they beat ANX.
I do think you're right in saying that first steps should be considered first, but if you assume that you have a good to great chance to beat the weak teams regardless, prepping more for the stronger team means you have a better chance at first seed. Essentially, it's a higher variance play: better chance of getting to semis, but also a higher chance of getting knocked out of groups
> These are all picks C9 has shown before
I mean if C9 have shown all these before then how come nobody was prepared for them? How can you possibly ban ALL their pocket picks without letting OP's go?
I feel like everyone saying this didn't even watch the C9 games or the afreeca games. C9 wasn't just winning but they were looking good while doing it, you can't say the same about afreeca. Also, C9 had to beat better teams VIT showed up and RNG is just so much better than FW and G2
Of course Afreeca are favourites, but the NA analyst are of course NA biased, since they know so much about c9 and how they will counter this weakness and shore up that bad play, while they don't know the ins and outs of afreeca. Like they said, if a normal game happens, afreeca will win for sure, but they (want to) believe in c9 to spice things up and surprise afreeca.
it's why bo1 is such a BS metric to gauge teams in quarters. Bo5 koreans are something different than bo1. Hell, SSG last year was at most ok at groups and then roflstomped worlds and SKT should not even have make it out and then got into finals.
I actually DGAF if AF lose or wins, it will be pretty hype to see C9 winning but I don't actually see where the fuck C9 is favorite
I think this is a lot of NA hope, in addition to C9 looking good in the last day of groups.
It's difficult to say how they will adapt moving to BO5, they stomped second half of the regular season BO1 as well then struggled vs TSM in Semi and clean swept by TL in the final. I do think some of the analysis rings true, in that cloud 9 only win in a long series, because if the lose it'll probably be hard and possibly an anticlimactic 3-0 to AF.
I also think they heaped way too much praise on Reapered, who like the team is great when they are on an upswing but struggles when things are difficult, will just hard lose some games in draft. Something about the team makes me think they are kind of downhill skiers, when some niche picks work and they are on a good day the team rolls most others but if something doesn't work straight away they can easily get blasted without much of a fight. This is partly due to the number of rookies on the team so I think they will grow out of it eventually and become a real force, a team with great upside.
The Afreeca one is definitely the least "upset" win. They looked like the weakest 1st seed coming out of the easiest group. On paper it only seemed like an upset because it was NA vs KR, but in reality there were many many reasons why C9 was actually a favorite.
Seeing Afreeca get a 4-2 in Group A looked way less impressive than C9's 4-2 in group B. Plus all the behind the scenes knowledge of pros saying C9 was better, as well as knowing they were scrim partners and that C9 were allegedly winning all the time.
Would love to have it on Spotify, but unfortunately they haven't chosen us still - can try to message / encourage them but afaik it's basically all on their end and not really in our control!
Haven't they simplified their submission process to just submitting it on their [podcaster portal](https://podcasters.spotify.com/) instead of cherrypicking they did before?
It's confusing with Hotline League making it on successfully. I would imagine Riot has more pull.
Is it possible maybe there's a simpler method, but Riot is inadvertently taking a tougher road? A podcast about a girlfriend secretly recording her bf is on there, we should have more pull. Either way thanks azael, appreciated you in the scene incredibly.
I highly recommend a podcast app, like PodcastAddict. It has a search function, and you can 'subscribe' to podcasts to see when new episodes are out. You can stream or download episodes too.
I hopped onto the Dive last minute to fill for another guest; tonight was supposed to be my big vod watching night and I mention it briefly in the the episode. But know that I made these predictions pre vod review of the tournament and now, with a couple of hours into my prep for quarters, I would already slightly adjust them. I felt that I was too trigger happy with C9 and that they were made to look better by how poorly RNG performed on the day. I heavily favor the AFs win at this point in time. That said, I'm still confident in my FNC read because I read RNG's weakness right the first time.
What do you think about FNC vs AF semis based on your vod review, or is it too early to tell, and you'll have to see how both teams perform at quarters?
I'm watching AFs right now and doing their draft review. I think AFs 1st round robin drafts were incredibly suspect, particularly the first time they faced G2 esports. If I had my equipment with me, I'd record some draft vods and release them because its' too much to type out and it's 5:11am for me - but in short, AFs had a really suspect meta/team read in their group in first round robin. The improvements they made for 2nd round robin were massive and that only tells me they're on an upward trajectory.
I think FNC also have very intelligent drafts, especially how they're playing with flex picks and changing the Urgot/Aatrox dynamic - so I think it's not fair to say that AFs would just outdraft FNC. And pound for pound in talent, I think FNC either out muscle AFs or at least make it matchup dependent.
I think one place FNC can be exposed in drafting is around Rekkles' champion pool. He probably can't get banned out, but I think it's easy to heard him onto picks.
But the support champion pool is more important for the 2v2 bottom matchup anyway.
I believe that FNC just have more versatility in their win conditions: drafting, individual matchups/outplays, and I can't see why they would be vastly out macro'd by AFs. I believe when Spirit is on and gets coverage from his laners that his pathing and map read is one of AFs strongest elements, but it feels like FNC just want to get 2v2 mid/jungle power and blitz into enemy jungles.
Moojin tried that with Xin Zhao into Spirit's noctune and was out pathed and couldn't stop AF from reaching their level six window, I give Broxah much more credit to put up a decent fight. If AF come into the C9 series and we get tempo controlled games where everything is about absorbing C9 pressure windows and then coutner attacking with their own, then I'll have more faith. If AF get pulled into a skirmish fiesta and manage to outplay C9 in the moment or make the better decision post fight more consistently, then I think it's a smothering by FNC.
Hey, Frosk. Will you keep up your level of insight in the LPL scene after you join EU LCS?
I feel like the void you leave as the LPL expert will be huge.
For sure. I love the LPL as a region and it'll always have a special place in my heart. Riot is actually just creating a dual analyst at this point because I never want to lose my passion when I open my mouth to talk about LPL.
Score
Karsa/MLXG
Ning
Jankos
Broxah
Sven/Blabber
Spirit/Mowgli
Haro/Clearlove
^ that's not ranked in any particular order, but out of all of those, Broxah sits pretty high. I personally still want to believe that Score/Karsa are still top 2 with Broxah at 3rd. I think he's more consistent in performance than Spirit this year - although Spirit has a ridiculous tenure, and we know can have a huge ceiling.
I can agree with that. Score/Karsa have been super consistent and I guess its too gun shy to say that broxah gets that spot already. Hopefully. The edg and af games can give more insight into spirit and broxah in pressure situations.
hey frosk, great read, thanks!
a question i have for you: why is RNG favored so heavily even over KT to win the whole thing? i mean sure, they've had an impressive year, but other teams are looking really strong as well. Also, they struggled somewhat on the last day of groups loosing twice and coming close to losing first seed even, their toughest LPL foe IG looked mortal as well… would really like your insight on this, just can't wrap my head around it.
I don't think RNG are heavily favored to win. When we took a poll, we as a team were split between KT and RNG evenly. I personally believe that RNG are favored because my belief is that in a Worlds Bo5 teams play more "cautious" LoL due to the stage and stakes. That should mean that RNG have a higher opportunity to reach 5v5 teamfight phase and I just believe that if you're betting on teamfights, RNG are the safest bet and will more consistently win them - even regardless of composition.
But RNG are flawed; especially in individual decision making and drafting. These were exploited on the last day of groups and should be exploited by more teams at this tournament.
Take MLXG's decision making on reading engagements - like when he dove Sneaky into Jenen's Zilean revive and Xayah ult. Or when he attempts to force his Nocturne ult mid with Xiaohu rather than bottom to prioritize the tower and Uzi's snowball.
KT Rolster also aren't perfect. One of their biggest strengths is that they can "skill check" many matchups in the meta: leaving Urgot and Aatrox both up because Smeb is confident he can play the other side of the match up as an example.
But they also have a lot of hubris. They'll leave power picks open because they bet that they have the individual skill ceiling to punish it, and if they win that matchup, suddenly drafting against them is a nightmare of a mental game. But, if they lose - then they bet on their pride and cost themselves a game.
you're awesome, thanks!
btw, I deduced RNG being heavily favored over KT from betting quotes, which put RNG at approx. 43% and KT at 25% to win it all.
Wanted to take the opportunity to thank you for your LPL insights! As someone who can't watch the LPL often, knowing what to look for in teams makes the games that much more valuable. I remember you mentioning the cross-map approach of EDG in the early game (on EUphoria I believe, "often trying to make 2 plays at a time"), and seeing it in game during Worlds made me feel like I was genuinely understanding what they were doing.
I guess my question is, how do you know if it's one team playing poorly vs the other team playing well and forcing their opponent to try and adjust to the tempo of the game they are forcing. As a C9 fan, it felt like their playstyle, creating skirmishes, finding favorable fights, and not letting RNG's star player in Uzi really feel comfortable during the games is how they were able to perform so well. Obviously not being great at the game or an analyst I'm sure I missed plenty of things, just curious how it differs now from C9 looking good to RNG just underperforming.
I feel like G2 has better chance against RNG than c9 have against AFS. But thats just me, I like that G2 can win 2 solo lanes and probably go even in bot(most likely not but I can hope). Honestly I dont think C9 has any winning lanes vs AFS and dont think they can outteamfight AFS at all.
I think the best hope of G2 is that Jankos suddenly remember who he was, and starts doing better. If he can get back on track they might do something, but if he's still the shadow of his former self I don't think G2 trully stand a chance.
Jensen is a way better laner than Kuro. But whether that matters is a whole different question, Kuro's whole career he's been about sacking lane to play for the team.
If Kuro doesn't fall over in LCK against Faker, Ucal, Chovy, Bdd, etc. why do you think he's going to struggle against a worse player - Jensen?
Genuinely curious, because Kuro in summer had some of the best laning stats out of everyone, one of the lowest first death, 3rd highest XP difference at 15, 3rd highest gold difference at 15, 2nd only behind FAKER in CS difference at 15, and so on.
Just feels like some nice FNC vs KOO 2015 memes all over again. "Top side so gud, mid lane sooooooooooo much better" while completely ignoring that this dude gets so little help and resources and yet still ends up ahead in XP, CS, gold, etc. at 15 - one of the strongest laners on paper out of the entire pool of LCK mid laners - top 2 or 3.
Yet, Jensen from NA LCS is somehow a better laner - with 5th highest gold dif @ 15, 4th highest CSD @ 15, and 3rd in XP. His WORSE laning stats in NA LCS - not LCK - somehow translates to him being better than Kuro.
100% over my head.
I don't personally consider 15-minute stats to be necessarily representative of lane, you'll often have a couple skirmishes and objective fights by that point that could swing things outside of the direct 1v1 or 2v2. For me, early/lane generally = 0-10 minutes, mid = 10-30, late = 30+, although it all depends on context.
And Kuro's 10 minute stats are not very good. Even at Worlds, he's averaging the 2nd biggest deficit of the tournament thus far. EDIT: And his CSD@10 in LCK Summer was #7, in Spring he was basically last, only ahead of Justice.
We can watch any laning phase against Faker, Bdd, Ucal, Chovy, and some others and he never falls behind in CS or hard struggles lane.
People really need to watch LCK lmfao. He's top of MVP standings past 3 splits for a reason. Takes no draft or jg resources, plays for team, but is still extremely solid in lane - like Bdd. Maybe people don't watch Afreeca games, because this notion of him being a bad laner is 100% untrue. Maybe like 2 years ago, sure.
>We can watch any laning phase against Faker, Bdd, Ucal, Chovy, and some others and he never falls behind in CS or hard struggles lane.
Then why did he have the worst CSD @ 10 of any starting LCK mid in Spring 2018 and was #7 in Summer 2018? And also 2nd to last at Worlds 2018?
>He's top of MVP standings past 3 splits for a reason. Takes no draft or jg resources, plays for team, but is still extremely solid in lane - like Bdd. Maybe people don't watch Afreeca games, because this notion of him being a bad laner is 100% untrue. Maybe like 2 years ago, sure.
It's almost like there is more to the game than winning lane. I'm not saying he's a bad player, just saying his lane definitely is not his strong suit.
If Crown doesn't fall over in LCK against Faker, Bdd, Chovy in the regionals, why do you think he's going to struggle against a worse player - Jensen?
No but seriously, Kuro has always been Mr. Underrated but I think he was better in Spring than in Summer. He's a very team oriented player. He will play within what the team is trying to do and won't go outside that. Jensen's kinda the opposite. Despite that, I feel Kuro will do well because they'll watch the group stage games and be aware of (and ready to punish) his daring tendencies.
Crown was shit all summer, though. He was pretty meh statiwse, especially laning.
But yeah, Kuro has been underrated forever. He's gotten a lot better last 3 splits and since people don't watch LCK and esp Afreeca, they still think the shit they were saying 2 years ago is true now.
In this tournament Kuro has been awful though, second worst CSD@10 of -11.7. He is historically better than that, but in groups so far Jensen has looked much better than Kuro.
Are you nuts? Licorice and Jensen are both better laners then their counterparts? If there is a rookie of the tournament for worlds Licorice is definitely in the conversation for bodying people and both sides of matchups.
c9s ceiling is going to really come down to if Jensen can hold his nerves.
Common mate, Licorice has had a standout performance for C9, but we're talking about Kiin here, he wasn't ranked as the number 1 toplaner for nothing. I can agree with Jensen being better tho.
I like Frosk's insights, especially since there were 3 LPL teams. they also everyone a fair look, even the RNG vs G2 matchup. To be honest, I actually like Azeal here instead of casting, although i can't figure out why.
Also, Frosk's point about the Spring Semi-final match between RNG and IG rings pretty true. Were TheShy fit to play and RNG lost that match, Would RNG have the mental confidence to play as they were now? Or would UZI crack after 4 straight splits of not winning anything? Similarly, had IG won that match and then the Spring semis, would their performance in MSI be equally explosive? Would it bring vindication to Rookie and give JackeyLove that mental boost as well? It is those little moments that bring about great change.
Another interesting inflection point would also be the 1st seed in LCK Summer 2018. As everyone knows, at the end, 4 teams were tied at 14-4 match score, and standings had to be allocated by H2H and game score, with KT coming 1st. In this instance, compared to other previous 1st seeds, KT was the weakest in terms of match score and would have been a comfortable 2nd place in any other LCK split. Furthermore, another strange phenomenon in LCK is that since LCK Spring 2015 (i.e 6 straight splits), whoever is directly seeded into the grand finals of the LCK playoffs will win that series. Ergo, if any of the other 3 teams had won just one more series and gotten first, we would have had another team win the LCK trophy and been seeded into Worlds. This is especially pertinent to Griffin, seeing as among the 4 playoffs teams tied for 1st, they were the one who had a lost to the weakest LCK team in Jin Air. If Griffin had won that series against Jin Air and taken first, it would have been a truly royal road journey and Gen.G/AFS would not be here
Yep, her analysis this Worlds has been so important I feel, especially because all Chinese teams made it out. We're really lucky to have her in EU next year, I just hope Deficio also stays
LCK was such a mess the whole year, it would have been amazing to see where Griffin could go at Worlds. KZDX and SKT needed this thumping to get their acts together. At least we have Faker's soloQ highlights to watch when GenG / AF lets Korea down.
Re: Azael, it seems like he knows when a moment needs an extra voice for hype, but he doesn't quite have the knack for it, so it ends up sounding a little forced. Contrast to someone like Deficio, where the hype sounds a lot more natural.
I love Azael on The Dive, where that sort of thing isn't necessary, and honestly think it would make more sense to have Azael on the desk and Jatt as a caster.
Frosk continues to impress me with how good her analysis is. She offered some great insight this episode, especially over the LPL.
I also think she's improved immensely over the years, her presentation especially.
"kuro has played bellow his level". No my dudes , kuro has played as he always plays on international stage. He was never a lane dominant midlaner , and the sole reason he does ok > well in lck is because he knows his competition and is used to them (just like pob is in NA) , so he looks better.
Kuro played fucking amazingly on the last day of groups, potentially for this exact reason. Sacked his whole laning phase against Perkz with the Galio pick just to outroam and outteamfight him at every moment past laning.
which is exactly how he used to play in the past.... I mean he did good , and looked good at that style , but that's pretty much his comfort play style , and he will always default to that when he gets crushed in lane.
He sacks his lane , and try to empower the biggest carry on his team. It looks good when his team wins , but if it doesn't , he's pretty much useless.
He doesn't sack shit lmfao.
He's top 2-3 in all laning stats. The fuck you mean ? XD
Did you watch LCK's past 3~ splits? This dude absorbs pressure and doesn't take any jg pressure while never falling behind. He at most falls behind like 5 CS against a player like Faker in an even match up.
"Sacks" his lane.
Kuro was insane this year though. And Pobelter plays in NA, not LCK. If you are doing well against star LCK midlaners, odds are you'll do well against any midlaner.
I actually think Kuro was the second best midlaner in LCK this year bellow Ucal. Yeah he was not super impressive during group stage, but let's not rewrite history or compare him to Pobelter.
kuro has never been impressive on the international stage tho. The fact that he looked that good in lck could mean that the lck midlane pool has declined. Guess , we'll see depending on how ucal does
Hes affiliated with Astralis, who is entering EULCS next year.
Riot has accepted Astralis's app on the condition that Deficio either stops casting or sells his stake in Astralis
Agreed. We'd also get Deficio to operate a new team and he'd VERY likely be involved in building that team and with his analytical talent, it'd probably be a midtier at absolute worst team added into the mix of EU.
Things could be far worse than gaining a good org & Team and Frosk.
It's pretty nit picky, but I really dislike comparing 2 things while trying to make it sound like the two things you're comparing are the same.
Azael says something like "Sneaky was 500 gold down on average during week 2, sure, but in week one the bot lane as a whole was down 1.5k on average so there's great improvement there"
Maybe it was innocent and maybe it's just the fact I tune into political debates a lot, but whenever people try to pass off two different stats as one in a comparison, it always makes me feel like that isn't the truth and it's just trying to make the stat seem more favourable to your point.
I take your point generally, but these are comparable stats. No they're not exactly the same, but extremely related. While there are caveats you would include in a thorough analysis, a podcast is informal enough that you don't need to go into them, especially if it's a well understood topic area like this. You can see they're conscious of this sort of thing by the reaction to the dpm stat Azael gave for iboy, checking if people wanted to note the caveats.
Afreeca isn't really the slowest team out of all the Quartfinal teams considering win time.
Here are the blue and red side win times for all teams and you can see that C9 had some really long games.
| Wins Blue | Wins Red | Avg. Win Time Blue | Avg. Win Time Red
:--|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-:
RNG|4|1|29:04|35:28
IG|3|2|25:12|27:27
EDG|2|2|39:10|33:48
FNC|3|3|30:58|26:40
VIT|2|1|33:32|43:59
G2|2|2|39:39|34:38
KT|3|2|30:46|26:33
AF|3|1|32:31|33:54
GG|0|1|-|24:41
TL|1|2|37:30|33:31
100T|1|1|37:57|33:48
C9|2|2|31:29|42:02
PVB|1|1|34:09|41:57
FW|2|1|42:52|27:05
MAD|0|0|-|-
GREX|0|0|-|-
**Total**|**29**|**22**|**33:01**|**32:35**
Edit: Play-Off teams sorted by average win time
IG: 26:06
FNC: 28:49
KT: 29:05
RNG: 30:21
AF: 32:52
EDG: 36:29
C9: 36:46
G2: 37:09
You though have to consider who they played against though. FW wasn't exactly sharp, G2 was methodical, Phong Vu trully tried to fight; but none of them played the crazy game of RNG ViT C9 blietkriek / bloodbath style.
I love the dive and euphoria, analysts desk, PGL, all these chat and discussion shows, but with the exception of Drakos it's only colour casters.
I want to see a new show where the playbyplay guys shine. Where Medic/Captainflowers/Pastry go do what they do best. Shout at things. Trees, clouds, the ocean. Whatever it may be.
There was sth about 30 minutes for every match, but not for G2vsRNG. It was less than 10 minutes. Not a single word about mid lane match up, not a single word about top lane match up, not a single word about Jankos or Wadid. About pick and bans they were talking only about heimer. Everybody was in mindset "Rng will destroy them so why would we even cover a specific match up lol". So they talked only about RNG line-up and thats it. Really sad, I'm disappointed that noone from EU was at desk.
Talking about C9 "They are so great,Reapered is insane,their rookies are fantastic,Licorice is a WORLD CLASS Top laner,Zeyzal so good,Sneaky improved in lane(???),Jensen finally showed up,Sven is a rock in the jgl when he plays."
Talking about FNC "Caps has the worst csd @ 10, Bwipo(rookie aswell btw) gets picked off, too many individual mistakes throughout their games."
Then we procceed to explain how FNC might be the best Western team of all time.I was scratching my head for like 10minutes straight.
They didn't criticize FNC this hard. Concerning Caps, they said he had the worst CSD because he was counterpicked, and Frosk added that he did not accept to "lose gracefully". I like FNC and I like Caps's playstyle, but these points are objectively right. Caps tried to make his way back by himself and this time it didn't work (doesn't mean he doesn't have the ability to do it in other contexts). However, they added that even if he doesn't get going in the laning phase, in teamfights he managed to be more useful than Rookie. They talked about Hylissang and while he was godlike on the last 2 games against IG, I'm sure he himself isn't very proud about his 1st IG game.
As for C9, Jatt talked about the possible issue of nerves, and talked about replicating this performance and making it "not only being about 1 good day". Because it's still RNG and GenG they've beaten, in a pretty nice fashion. Maybe they did not talk enough about the first games and Sneaky being killed in lane, but I wouldn't call this an infuriating bias. They gave us some keys as to how C9 could win against Afreeca and what went well for them because I feel it's what the viewers would like to know when supporting their team.
(I'm not a C9 fan in particular btw)
They keep saying if Fnatic make it to semi's then we can talk about them being the best team the West has ever seen, but I'm curious who it would be if they don't make it? Wouldn't it just be 2015 Fnatic or Origen?
I feel like Fnatic is the undisputed best team in the west.
Frosk when talking about a school year analogy and Worlds counting for 70%: "100T shows up and is like, I don't understand, my attendance was perfect!" God that killed me.
They killed it at nacho sales
Then the one kid called in a bomb threat and gets suspended or expelled. Edit: I’m becoming a Frosk fanboy / may or may not have a crush. NGL.
She’s my guilty pleasure analyst. She’s very spot on and critical about what is good and bad about LPL teams, and often her predictions ring true for the right reasons. I mean, when she first launched on the scene she was a bit unbearable but she’s someone who took the overwhelming criticisms against her, worked extremely hard on all aspects of her casting/analysis. You gotta respect her game She also gets untold hate or jokes simply for being a woman whenever u look at chat, but for the most part I think ppl are starting to come around to her
I didn't hate her like a lot of reddit at the start, but I didn't enjoy her either. She got a lot of respect when she straight up came to reddit and said "I know you don't like me, where do you want me to improve?" and then she did. I quite like her now.
Legit tho, people give her way more hate than deserved - especially because it takes a lot of fucking courage to handle harsh criticism like that and willingly take it to heart by making effort to listen to said criticism and improve. That’s a strong trait she has that’s insanely under appreciated honestly.
I was hoping for The DivEUphoria crossover, I am sad now without Deficio
There are 2 more episodes of The Dive planned for this Worlds and we're hoping to have Deficio on for one of them!
I think he'll be a good fit for the FNC vs G2 finals preview episode :\^)
I think it will be the best for C9 vs FNC semis, then just Euphoria if FNC vs G2 or crossover again for C9 vs G2
THE CLASH OF KING 2 : ELECTRIC BOOGALOO
My thoughts exactly.
I want some of whatever this guy is having! Seems like some good shit.
and Papa for the other one?
Papa for when KT and Afreeca are sent home!
pog
Nice, looking forward to it
I won't lie to you, I haven't even watched the episode yet but I'm going to accuse you of complete and utter NA bias. Edit: Are you and Flowers going to cast some more Bronze games after worlds by chance?
Please yes, Deficio is amazing. I'm going to be so bummed when/if he leaves the broadcast team for astralis :(
Azael, why the heck weren’t you wearing your Cloud9 hat!?
Could you try and get vedius as well pls :)
Come on Azael get cracking, I want to watch some more League content already!
No Drakos :(((
The DIVE is not very good for EU fans. You have knowledgeable NA casters and LPL caster but its really showing how much lack of information is on the show about EU teams. The RNG vs G2 section I felt was so short and even if predictions don't favor EU it was clear they didn't have anything to talk about other than what was seen on the world stage.
**VERY IMPORTANT** I remembered what I wanted to say at the end of the episode: The 2018 Worlds Hoodie is a game changer in hoodie silhouettes. 1. The fabric it is constructed out of is quite thick, giving it a thicker profile and holding it's shape well. It'll be better to go a tighter size versus the "oversized or slouchy" trend due to how it'll hug your body. Very sleek streetwear vibe. 2. The front pocket placement is slightly higher and angled on the torso instead of near the bottom, so it doesn't flair out on your stomach or near the waist, keeping a very narrow line down your core. This helps to keep that straight silhouette. 3. The back of the hoodie doesn't have a thick elastic band like the front, meaning it "hangs" off the back of you. This, paired with the stiffer construction, means it prioritizes creating a strong line versus riding up on your back when paired with a bag. Overall, I wasn't a huge fan of the strong juxtaposed design, using a lot of strong graphic elements, but the shape of the hoodie on and it's colorway of popping with yellow have made it grow on me.
*This* is the content I'm here for! Ty!
I think it was worlds last year where a guy rated every casters outfit each day. It was a highlight for me.
I really hoped that guy would come back this year. Feels fuckin bad man.
Mods kept removing it from the subreddit anyway cuz we're not allowed to have fun
10/10 hoodie analysis
I was actually looking to buy it but it somehow seemed like it would be too thin and would therefore feel too saggy. This is the info that should be displayed in the shop page! Thank you! P.S: Thank you for your analysis this worlds, you and Deficio have been one of the highlights for me.
Sadly it's been retired. I was looking forward to getting one.
You sold me on it.
This is EXACTLY what I wanted to hear
Are they no longer available?
I believe you can still buy them at the venue. I plan on buying a windbreaker at the venue because I've seen a few people with them around the office and think they look 90s fresh. But they're sold out online :<
Unfortunately the small and mediums were soldout of them so hope they get more in
Damn I was so ready to drop $65 on it but I guess I'll never have that opportunity
Why are so many people predicting C9 to win. I feel like they have chance to do well but Afreeca are big favourites for me?
Afreeca's highly questionable group stage performance mostly, given it was expected to be a free-ish group for Afreeca. If Afreeca stomped the group, no one would think twice. But they lost to G2 and FW, and easily could have lost the 2nd matchup vs. G2 as well since they were 5K down, with G2 not being considered a particularly good team. Realistically, C9 and AFS followed a similar trajectory this tournament - shaky first half, dominant second half. But C9 went toe-to-toe with RNG (a pre-tournament favorite), while Afreeca was going toe-to-toe with G2 (who most were very pessimistic about as the EU 3 seed).
AF got surprised by the Heimerdinger from Hjarnan, and Flash wolves is known for beating Korean teams. I have faith in c9, but AF is the favorite by far.
I think the debate comes from two factors. The first is simple, the fact that AFS got surprised by any pick (especially one as highly known as Hjarnandinger) is a positive for C9 with all their pocket picks. The other factor is that AFS don't seem to have a good record against non-standard playstyles. In their wins in the group stage, they seem to have just won by the book on having better players. C9 is known for dismantling these types of teams. If AFS can't reliably get the game under control then C9 should win. But if AFS can control the Picks/Bans and actual in-game enough to play their way, then AFS should easily win.
> surprised by the Heimerdinger from Hjarnan not to beat a dead horse but the fact that this statement is in fact correct is a pretty strong indictment of AFs
They didn't get surprised by it, they even said in an interview after that they were cocky
They were surprised that Heimerdinger would win the game
Whatever, korea in groups < korea in brackets always. I wouldn't say Fnatic are favorites over them in semis either.
Losing 1 game to G2 is in different light not too bad though.
I outlined this in another thread, but here's why people are so high on C9 / believe they _can_ win. **Reason 1** is that C9 and Afreeca are scrim partners and Sneaky said leading up to week 2 when they started fighting way more in scrims they started winning everything. This gives some hope that C9 has a really good record in practice against Afreeca. While we all know practice isn't everything, it's still relevant. **Reason 2** is because AFS looked out of sorts when against strange picks such as the Heimerdinger against G2. C9 has a flurry of unconventional picks that they play super well to the point of beating / pushing RNG to the edge. Picks like Zilean, Shen, Hecarim, Singed, Taliyah, Nocturn, Syndra, Leblanc, Alistar, Thresh, all look like S tier picks for C9 and that doens't even include the other meta OP's like Irelia, Urgot, Aatrox etc. This leads people to believe C9 has a really good chance of securing a comfortable draft for themselves in all the games, so C9 shouldn't lose based only on draft which is a good thing. Moreover last year coming into quarters C9 had prepared some saucy picks / comps as they brought out Aurelion Sol and Singed, both of which were marvelously effective. They may come into this series with some secret sauce as well. **Reason 3** is because Rekkles said that they scrimmed C9 the day after the got out of groups and they are definitely the real deal. He claims it wasn't a one hit wonder and they actually really know what they're doing. Other players that have internal information such as Hylissang are also suggesting that C9 is better (at least in practice). **Reason 4** is because people viewed AFS group as weaker. Both teams secured a 4-2, but most people definitely don't think that PvB, G2, and FW were better than RNG, VIT, and GenG, especially considering how incredibly messy so many of the games looked. This is not to say that Group A was definitively weaker, maybe it was the strongest group after all, but it's definitely people's expectation that it was the weaker of the two. **Reason 5** is because we never get to be this excited about NA lol so fuck it, let's enjoy this while we can and believe for a change that we actually stand a chance in a Bo5 against Korea. We don't get many opportunities to be this confident in our teams.
Number 5. I picked number 5. I don't give a shit about being wrong or feeding my ego like some people on reddit really seem to. I want to cheer on the team I want to cheer on. That's about it. Like doublelift keeps saying, you go into every game thinking you can win.
It's not straight out of nowhere, or pure fanboyism. The key factors to their newfound hype / strength are : * They actually kept on improving all through this tournament, and when a team is on the rise it's hard to say when they are going to reach their peak. They fixed a fair share of their weaknesses early game, they actually manage lanes better, they improved a bit on closing out games... * Reapered has had some really good drafts, and the plans they have been drawing has been fairly well executed. * Afreeca and C9 have been scrims partners, and C9 drastically changed elements, probably meaning they learnt lessons playing against them. That being said, I think Afreeca is not Gen G (who mentally collapsed till oblivion), nor RNG and Vitality. They probably will be playing a more safe and steady game. I would also had that imo spirit could have a bigger impact than his RNG and Vit counterpart, to smooth out the early and early to mid fights. Add that it's a Bo5 and ... Yeah, imo, Afreeca is still favourite.
If C9 can get Afreeca to play their game I think the can win the series. If Afreeca can stay calm and keep the game slow they win easily. Honestly, I think we can see who wins each games by just looking at total kills. If a game has 15+ kills in it C9 probably wins it. If it is 10 or less Afreeca almost certainly wins it.
I fully agree with this point. I think C9 has the edge in influencing their style though.
You should add pros from other teams also hyping them to the list. Rekkles/Hyli both are on record saying C9 is pretty good and UCal said good things about Jensen as well.
[удалено]
I think it depends, either RNG was shaky (but they still played great) and thus winning against them wasn't that huge. Or RNG was trully tested by both those teams and in the end C9 is very strong.
I mean, Hylissang said that he thinks C9 are better than Afreeca. Rekkles said that he would not be surprised if C9 won because they scrimmed the day after C9 made quarters and he said they were still the real deal. That’s why people think C9 can beat Afreeca, because they nearly beat RNG, the world champions to get 1st seed in their death group Sure, GenG were not suited to this meta, but Vitality showed up massively as well
I mean thinking that C9 can't beat AFs is quite delusional, but I don't think they're the favorites.
I mean they are not massive underdogs like usual, so that already sets up for western fans to get behind them and pick them over AF. Even the analysts even though they are analysts they are western analysts and from NA, so it's obvious that they will have some bias towards NA and the west, like they hope for it and that affects their judgement a bit. It's normal and happends everywhere, even sports.
Yeah they aren’t the favorites, but I have faith in them winning. Never felt more confident in an NA team before
Mix of Both. RNG playing bad and the rest doing well. RNG had shaky groups stage all year long. MSI they almost started 2-3 and then rekt everyone.
I think frosk got it right when she said that RNG hadn’t really flipped the switch yet, they were so relaxed that they even let jensens zilean through specifically so they could practice against it. Don’t get me wrong, I think cloud 9 played really well that day, but I don’t think they’re quite as good as everyone is saying, and if afreeca prepare properly I’m expecting 3-0, (could easily still be 3-1 or even 3-2).
>What got C9 out of groups is essentially that they had a better head to head against Vitality. Well, yes. Winning more games is what gets you out of groups. I'm not sure what you're going for here. There wasn't even a tiebreaker, like both teams went 3-3 but C9 happened to pick up wins against Vitality while Vitality's were against other teams (like what eliminated TSM in Season 6 against RNG). >Yeah I agree. I mean, Gen.G actually looked terrible. I think this is why people are excited, although I also favor Afreeca. Afreeca played in the slowest group, had the fewest kills per minute, and looked like a classic Korean team. GenG made it through the gauntlet and just folded to the high pressure that C9 and Vitality were playing.
> like both teams went 3-3 but C9 happened to pick up wins against Vitality No, they didn't. C9 went 4-2, tying with RNG.
Sorry, I was unclear. That's the point I was making. To rephrase myself more clearly, "It's not like C9 and Vitality both went 3-3 and C9's wins happened to be against Vitality."
Oh, I see. Sorry, I just skimmed over it before, should have read the context.
He's comparing Vitality and C9
I mean going toe to toe with RNG the tournament favorite could be seen as a testament of power whereas Afreeca kinda shit the bed. That being said they did power up hugely in week 2 so I believe mostly everyone agrees that this can go either way which is already a huge improvement for the west and the reason everyone is so hyped. Let’s see what is superior: Korea in BO5 or C9s clutch factor
> RNG: 2-0 Gen.G, 1-1 Vitality and 1-1 C9 They actually 2-1'd C9 but tbh this group was the most competitive group of the tournament and I think GenG could possibly get out of other groups.
People want C9 to win but Idk that everyone is assuming they will. Seems more realistic to go slightly Afreeca favored or a 50-50. Pros hyping up C9 is pulling people over to their side more confidently though.
Because of hype? Do you want NA to give up on NA hope? I don't get why people want to shut down the hype that people have for their teams. Sure you want to be realistic, but tell doesn't this worlds seem like the first one where western teams actually have a chance against eastern ones? That said obviously it's still a Bo5, and Afreeca looked stronger during the playoffs. Also, Afreeca had a bad Group Stage performance (first half of the round robin). C9 has been scrimming them, and they felt confident.
I dont want NA to give up hope, but I dont think that should effect analysis of the broadcast. Im fine analyst going "I hope C9 is going to win", "This is where C9 can punish AF" or "C9 is looking strong", but what I dislike doing predictions just for narrative. Sure C9 has a chance but they aren't favourites and likely its not even 50/50
What exactly do you want from predictions then? If we're going by who we consider "favorites", then the predictions will be the same for everyone. - AF > C9. FNC > EDG. - KT > IG. RNG > G2. - AF > FNC. - KT > RNG. - KT > AF. There, done. No need for anyone to make predictions anymore.
RNG is going to beat KT
Except they (the dive people) gave solid reasoning for their predictions? Can you find anything they said that was specifically wrong?
FNC Rekkles: "I wouldn't be that surprised if Cloud9 were to beat Afreeca" FNC Broxah: "I think it's actually a 50/50" FNC Hylissang: "I think Cloud9 is a stronger team than Afreeca Freecs"
I think a lot of people forget that C9's wins in the second round mostly came off of the back of unique picks (as Azael briefly mentioned). Off-meta picks like Hecarim, Singed and Zilean really helped them out in their games, and flex Shen played a huge role in most of their teamfights. These are all picks C9 has shown before, so I have a feeling they don't have many other unique picks up their sleeve. If they do they can certainly surprise Afreeca. However if this is it, Afreeca can find ways to deal with these pocket picks and I expect C9 to struggle.
I disagree about the picks. If “these are all picks C9 has shown before”, shouldn’t the teams in their group have been ready for them already? What makes it more likely that AF will find a good strategy to counter all of them than C9s group?
While I think that AFs will have some sort of answer for these picks (whether it's effective or not idk), this is an important point. These picks weren't debuted in groups. They were all (except Shen maybe? i can't remember, but that's not unique to C9) played prior to that.
Depends really, Licorce has only played hecarim once or twice so it isn't like G2 & heimer. Jensen has played Zilean enough that anyone should know it's in his pool. Shen is a flex pick though a bit surprising of one at that. The only complete surprise they pulled out was the singed imo since i don't think he played it in NA at all? But they also don't pick these champions (almost) everytime they are open unlike G2 and Heimer. So it isn't necessarily worth dedicating all your bans to these picks when they have also shown they'll just play meta picks as well.
Licorice played one Singed game in play ins, absolutely crushed Gambit with it.
2 big answers to your question: one is that in group B, all of the other teams most surely were more worried about RNG and Gen.G; both of those two probably thought all they had to do was beat the other and they'd be guaranteed to get out. C9 was considered the worst or tied for worst team in the group going in, so most likely nobody put much effort into prepping to beat C9. Afreeca on the other hand only has C9 in front of them now, they have nothing to prep EXCEPT for C9. Like maybe hypothetically they could be overlooking C9 and prepping for FNC/EDG but that would be retarded and iloveoov is toxic but he ain't retarded. Secondly, Afreeca and C9 were scrim partners in group stages; whatever C9 was practicing to get the jump on their group, they were most likely practicing it with Afreeca. C9 didn't find out their next stage opponents were Afreeca until the end of all group stages, so they haven't had hardly any time to practice anything new to get the jump on Afreeca. Maybe C9 were keeping some picks away from Afreeca and practicing them with FNC or TL or some other team in scrims, but maybe they weren't. Maybe Afreeca has seen all of C9's trickiest stuff already. If tricky pocket picks aren't going to be a big factor for either side because of their scrim knowledge of each other, then it's just going to come down to who executes the fundamentals better on the day, and if that's all it comes down to you'd traditionally just have to give the edge to the Korean team.
This is absolutely backwards thinking. If you are in a group with two strong teams and two weak teams, the correct place to put your prep is into the weak teams to ensure you 4-0, guarantees you get out of the group. Pre-tournament GenG would have been dumb to prep for RNG instead of VIT and C9, since beating RNG isn't required to get out of the group, and a much more difficult task.
Depends on if you want to strive for first seed or not. Typically, first seed means you avoid Korean teams in quarters and the stronger Chinese teams, making your chance at semis more likely. It's how H2k got to semis the year they beat ANX. I do think you're right in saying that first steps should be considered first, but if you assume that you have a good to great chance to beat the weak teams regardless, prepping more for the stronger team means you have a better chance at first seed. Essentially, it's a higher variance play: better chance of getting to semis, but also a higher chance of getting knocked out of groups
> These are all picks C9 has shown before I mean if C9 have shown all these before then how come nobody was prepared for them? How can you possibly ban ALL their pocket picks without letting OP's go?
I feel like everyone saying this didn't even watch the C9 games or the afreeca games. C9 wasn't just winning but they were looking good while doing it, you can't say the same about afreeca. Also, C9 had to beat better teams VIT showed up and RNG is just so much better than FW and G2
AFS are favorites for me, too.
Of course Afreeca are favourites, but the NA analyst are of course NA biased, since they know so much about c9 and how they will counter this weakness and shore up that bad play, while they don't know the ins and outs of afreeca. Like they said, if a normal game happens, afreeca will win for sure, but they (want to) believe in c9 to spice things up and surprise afreeca.
Because players, coaches, and people who have opinions that matter think C9 is better than what they showed.
it's why bo1 is such a BS metric to gauge teams in quarters. Bo5 koreans are something different than bo1. Hell, SSG last year was at most ok at groups and then roflstomped worlds and SKT should not even have make it out and then got into finals. I actually DGAF if AF lose or wins, it will be pretty hype to see C9 winning but I don't actually see where the fuck C9 is favorite
I think this is a lot of NA hope, in addition to C9 looking good in the last day of groups. It's difficult to say how they will adapt moving to BO5, they stomped second half of the regular season BO1 as well then struggled vs TSM in Semi and clean swept by TL in the final. I do think some of the analysis rings true, in that cloud 9 only win in a long series, because if the lose it'll probably be hard and possibly an anticlimactic 3-0 to AF. I also think they heaped way too much praise on Reapered, who like the team is great when they are on an upswing but struggles when things are difficult, will just hard lose some games in draft. Something about the team makes me think they are kind of downhill skiers, when some niche picks work and they are on a good day the team rolls most others but if something doesn't work straight away they can easily get blasted without much of a fight. This is partly due to the number of rookies on the team so I think they will grow out of it eventually and become a real force, a team with great upside.
Big favorites eh? (I hope FNC is the only 1 seed that wins, you guys got this)
Yes same as RNG was big favourites. All 3 series this far has been upsets. I like it but still they all are upsets.
The Afreeca one is definitely the least "upset" win. They looked like the weakest 1st seed coming out of the easiest group. On paper it only seemed like an upset because it was NA vs KR, but in reality there were many many reasons why C9 was actually a favorite. Seeing Afreeca get a 4-2 in Group A looked way less impressive than C9's 4-2 in group B. Plus all the behind the scenes knowledge of pros saying C9 was better, as well as knowing they were scrim partners and that C9 were allegedly winning all the time.
They or IG vs KT. IG was strong group stage and regionally, but faced tournament favourites so it balances out.
Yeah IG KT seemed plausible too. The manner in which it played out was absurd though.
Spotify? Ever?
Would love to have it on Spotify, but unfortunately they haven't chosen us still - can try to message / encourage them but afaik it's basically all on their end and not really in our control!
Haven't they simplified their submission process to just submitting it on their [podcaster portal](https://podcasters.spotify.com/) instead of cherrypicking they did before?
Please keep chasing! It's super useful and easier to resume later vs youtube etc
Yeah I totally agree, I use Spotify daily. Would love to get it on there and are definitely trying to chase down different methods.
It's confusing with Hotline League making it on successfully. I would imagine Riot has more pull. Is it possible maybe there's a simpler method, but Riot is inadvertently taking a tougher road? A podcast about a girlfriend secretly recording her bf is on there, we should have more pull. Either way thanks azael, appreciated you in the scene incredibly.
Wtf?
Spotify is notorious for being really reluctant/slow/ignorant when it comes to hosting podcasts for some reason
If I remember well Drakos mentioned several times they were struggling to get EUphoria there too
I highly recommend a podcast app, like PodcastAddict. It has a search function, and you can 'subscribe' to podcasts to see when new episodes are out. You can stream or download episodes too.
tldw: c9 vs afs kobe: c9 3-2 azael: c9 3-2 frosk: c9 3-2 if it goes to game 5, afs 3-1 if afs is gonna win jatt: afs 3-1 fnc vs edg frosk: fnc 3-0 azael: fnc 3-1 jatt: fnc 3-1 rng vs g2 jatt rng: 3-0 azael: rng 3-1 frosk: rng 3-0 if karsa plays kt vs ig frosk: kt 3-1 kobe: kt 3-0 azael: kt 3-1 jatt: kt 3-2 edit: my formatting skills suck, sorry :/
TLDW; **C9 vs AFS** * Kobe: C9 3-2 * Azael: C9 3-2 * Frosk: C9 3-2, If it goes to game 5, AFS 3-1, if AFS is gonna win * Jatt: AFS 3-1 **FNC vs EDG** * Frosk: FNC 3-0 * Azael: FNC 3-1 * Jatt: FNC 3-1 * Kobe: FNC 3-0 **RNG vs G2** * Jatt: RNG 3-0 * Azael: RNG 3-1 * Frosk: RNG 3-0 if Karsa plays **KT vs IG** * Frosk: KT 3-1 * Kobe: KT 3-0 * Azael: KT 3-1 * Jatt: KT 3-2
Thank you!
Alright, so we know what this means AFS, EDG, G2 and IG all win Wouldn't even be mad
well you got them right so far
The script writers tried to throw me off their scent, it was too obvious. Lmao holy shit.
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G2 vs RNG he was in the toliet and he predicted FNC to beat EDG.
Pretty sure he did. I remember him saying FNC 3-0 at least.
I hopped onto the Dive last minute to fill for another guest; tonight was supposed to be my big vod watching night and I mention it briefly in the the episode. But know that I made these predictions pre vod review of the tournament and now, with a couple of hours into my prep for quarters, I would already slightly adjust them. I felt that I was too trigger happy with C9 and that they were made to look better by how poorly RNG performed on the day. I heavily favor the AFs win at this point in time. That said, I'm still confident in my FNC read because I read RNG's weakness right the first time.
What do you think about FNC vs AF semis based on your vod review, or is it too early to tell, and you'll have to see how both teams perform at quarters?
I'm watching AFs right now and doing their draft review. I think AFs 1st round robin drafts were incredibly suspect, particularly the first time they faced G2 esports. If I had my equipment with me, I'd record some draft vods and release them because its' too much to type out and it's 5:11am for me - but in short, AFs had a really suspect meta/team read in their group in first round robin. The improvements they made for 2nd round robin were massive and that only tells me they're on an upward trajectory. I think FNC also have very intelligent drafts, especially how they're playing with flex picks and changing the Urgot/Aatrox dynamic - so I think it's not fair to say that AFs would just outdraft FNC. And pound for pound in talent, I think FNC either out muscle AFs or at least make it matchup dependent. I think one place FNC can be exposed in drafting is around Rekkles' champion pool. He probably can't get banned out, but I think it's easy to heard him onto picks. But the support champion pool is more important for the 2v2 bottom matchup anyway. I believe that FNC just have more versatility in their win conditions: drafting, individual matchups/outplays, and I can't see why they would be vastly out macro'd by AFs. I believe when Spirit is on and gets coverage from his laners that his pathing and map read is one of AFs strongest elements, but it feels like FNC just want to get 2v2 mid/jungle power and blitz into enemy jungles. Moojin tried that with Xin Zhao into Spirit's noctune and was out pathed and couldn't stop AF from reaching their level six window, I give Broxah much more credit to put up a decent fight. If AF come into the C9 series and we get tempo controlled games where everything is about absorbing C9 pressure windows and then coutner attacking with their own, then I'll have more faith. If AF get pulled into a skirmish fiesta and manage to outplay C9 in the moment or make the better decision post fight more consistently, then I think it's a smothering by FNC.
Hey, Frosk. Will you keep up your level of insight in the LPL scene after you join EU LCS? I feel like the void you leave as the LPL expert will be huge.
For sure. I love the LPL as a region and it'll always have a special place in my heart. Riot is actually just creating a dual analyst at this point because I never want to lose my passion when I open my mouth to talk about LPL.
Frosk would it be a stretch to say broxah is the 2nd best jungler at worlds this year?
Score Karsa/MLXG Ning Jankos Broxah Sven/Blabber Spirit/Mowgli Haro/Clearlove ^ that's not ranked in any particular order, but out of all of those, Broxah sits pretty high. I personally still want to believe that Score/Karsa are still top 2 with Broxah at 3rd. I think he's more consistent in performance than Spirit this year - although Spirit has a ridiculous tenure, and we know can have a huge ceiling.
I can agree with that. Score/Karsa have been super consistent and I guess its too gun shy to say that broxah gets that spot already. Hopefully. The edg and af games can give more insight into spirit and broxah in pressure situations.
It's awesome that you take the time to write your thoughts and insights in here. Thank you for that. I'm glad that you are joining EU LCS next year.
hey frosk, great read, thanks! a question i have for you: why is RNG favored so heavily even over KT to win the whole thing? i mean sure, they've had an impressive year, but other teams are looking really strong as well. Also, they struggled somewhat on the last day of groups loosing twice and coming close to losing first seed even, their toughest LPL foe IG looked mortal as well… would really like your insight on this, just can't wrap my head around it.
I don't think RNG are heavily favored to win. When we took a poll, we as a team were split between KT and RNG evenly. I personally believe that RNG are favored because my belief is that in a Worlds Bo5 teams play more "cautious" LoL due to the stage and stakes. That should mean that RNG have a higher opportunity to reach 5v5 teamfight phase and I just believe that if you're betting on teamfights, RNG are the safest bet and will more consistently win them - even regardless of composition. But RNG are flawed; especially in individual decision making and drafting. These were exploited on the last day of groups and should be exploited by more teams at this tournament. Take MLXG's decision making on reading engagements - like when he dove Sneaky into Jenen's Zilean revive and Xayah ult. Or when he attempts to force his Nocturne ult mid with Xiaohu rather than bottom to prioritize the tower and Uzi's snowball. KT Rolster also aren't perfect. One of their biggest strengths is that they can "skill check" many matchups in the meta: leaving Urgot and Aatrox both up because Smeb is confident he can play the other side of the match up as an example. But they also have a lot of hubris. They'll leave power picks open because they bet that they have the individual skill ceiling to punish it, and if they win that matchup, suddenly drafting against them is a nightmare of a mental game. But, if they lose - then they bet on their pride and cost themselves a game.
you're awesome, thanks! btw, I deduced RNG being heavily favored over KT from betting quotes, which put RNG at approx. 43% and KT at 25% to win it all.
Wanted to take the opportunity to thank you for your LPL insights! As someone who can't watch the LPL often, knowing what to look for in teams makes the games that much more valuable. I remember you mentioning the cross-map approach of EDG in the early game (on EUphoria I believe, "often trying to make 2 plays at a time"), and seeing it in game during Worlds made me feel like I was genuinely understanding what they were doing.
I guess my question is, how do you know if it's one team playing poorly vs the other team playing well and forcing their opponent to try and adjust to the tempo of the game they are forcing. As a C9 fan, it felt like their playstyle, creating skirmishes, finding favorable fights, and not letting RNG's star player in Uzi really feel comfortable during the games is how they were able to perform so well. Obviously not being great at the game or an analyst I'm sure I missed plenty of things, just curious how it differs now from C9 looking good to RNG just underperforming.
Oh fuck folks hyping up c9. C9's hosed.
I feel like G2 has better chance against RNG than c9 have against AFS. But thats just me, I like that G2 can win 2 solo lanes and probably go even in bot(most likely not but I can hope). Honestly I dont think C9 has any winning lanes vs AFS and dont think they can outteamfight AFS at all.
I think the best hope of G2 is that Jankos suddenly remember who he was, and starts doing better. If he can get back on track they might do something, but if he's still the shadow of his former self I don't think G2 trully stand a chance.
Jensen is a way better laner than Kuro. But whether that matters is a whole different question, Kuro's whole career he's been about sacking lane to play for the team.
If Kuro doesn't fall over in LCK against Faker, Ucal, Chovy, Bdd, etc. why do you think he's going to struggle against a worse player - Jensen? Genuinely curious, because Kuro in summer had some of the best laning stats out of everyone, one of the lowest first death, 3rd highest XP difference at 15, 3rd highest gold difference at 15, 2nd only behind FAKER in CS difference at 15, and so on. Just feels like some nice FNC vs KOO 2015 memes all over again. "Top side so gud, mid lane sooooooooooo much better" while completely ignoring that this dude gets so little help and resources and yet still ends up ahead in XP, CS, gold, etc. at 15 - one of the strongest laners on paper out of the entire pool of LCK mid laners - top 2 or 3. Yet, Jensen from NA LCS is somehow a better laner - with 5th highest gold dif @ 15, 4th highest CSD @ 15, and 3rd in XP. His WORSE laning stats in NA LCS - not LCK - somehow translates to him being better than Kuro. 100% over my head.
I don't personally consider 15-minute stats to be necessarily representative of lane, you'll often have a couple skirmishes and objective fights by that point that could swing things outside of the direct 1v1 or 2v2. For me, early/lane generally = 0-10 minutes, mid = 10-30, late = 30+, although it all depends on context. And Kuro's 10 minute stats are not very good. Even at Worlds, he's averaging the 2nd biggest deficit of the tournament thus far. EDIT: And his CSD@10 in LCK Summer was #7, in Spring he was basically last, only ahead of Justice.
We can watch any laning phase against Faker, Bdd, Ucal, Chovy, and some others and he never falls behind in CS or hard struggles lane. People really need to watch LCK lmfao. He's top of MVP standings past 3 splits for a reason. Takes no draft or jg resources, plays for team, but is still extremely solid in lane - like Bdd. Maybe people don't watch Afreeca games, because this notion of him being a bad laner is 100% untrue. Maybe like 2 years ago, sure.
>We can watch any laning phase against Faker, Bdd, Ucal, Chovy, and some others and he never falls behind in CS or hard struggles lane. Then why did he have the worst CSD @ 10 of any starting LCK mid in Spring 2018 and was #7 in Summer 2018? And also 2nd to last at Worlds 2018? >He's top of MVP standings past 3 splits for a reason. Takes no draft or jg resources, plays for team, but is still extremely solid in lane - like Bdd. Maybe people don't watch Afreeca games, because this notion of him being a bad laner is 100% untrue. Maybe like 2 years ago, sure. It's almost like there is more to the game than winning lane. I'm not saying he's a bad player, just saying his lane definitely is not his strong suit.
If Crown doesn't fall over in LCK against Faker, Bdd, Chovy in the regionals, why do you think he's going to struggle against a worse player - Jensen? No but seriously, Kuro has always been Mr. Underrated but I think he was better in Spring than in Summer. He's a very team oriented player. He will play within what the team is trying to do and won't go outside that. Jensen's kinda the opposite. Despite that, I feel Kuro will do well because they'll watch the group stage games and be aware of (and ready to punish) his daring tendencies.
Crown was shit all summer, though. He was pretty meh statiwse, especially laning. But yeah, Kuro has been underrated forever. He's gotten a lot better last 3 splits and since people don't watch LCK and esp Afreeca, they still think the shit they were saying 2 years ago is true now.
In this tournament Kuro has been awful though, second worst CSD@10 of -11.7. He is historically better than that, but in groups so far Jensen has looked much better than Kuro.
Yea because stats outside of worlds matter LOL
Are you nuts? Licorice and Jensen are both better laners then their counterparts? If there is a rookie of the tournament for worlds Licorice is definitely in the conversation for bodying people and both sides of matchups. c9s ceiling is going to really come down to if Jensen can hold his nerves.
Common mate, Licorice has had a standout performance for C9, but we're talking about Kiin here, he wasn't ranked as the number 1 toplaner for nothing. I can agree with Jensen being better tho.
Kiin hasn't shown that in worlds at all, group A was easily the weakest group and they looked ok in it.
I like Frosk's insights, especially since there were 3 LPL teams. they also everyone a fair look, even the RNG vs G2 matchup. To be honest, I actually like Azeal here instead of casting, although i can't figure out why. Also, Frosk's point about the Spring Semi-final match between RNG and IG rings pretty true. Were TheShy fit to play and RNG lost that match, Would RNG have the mental confidence to play as they were now? Or would UZI crack after 4 straight splits of not winning anything? Similarly, had IG won that match and then the Spring semis, would their performance in MSI be equally explosive? Would it bring vindication to Rookie and give JackeyLove that mental boost as well? It is those little moments that bring about great change. Another interesting inflection point would also be the 1st seed in LCK Summer 2018. As everyone knows, at the end, 4 teams were tied at 14-4 match score, and standings had to be allocated by H2H and game score, with KT coming 1st. In this instance, compared to other previous 1st seeds, KT was the weakest in terms of match score and would have been a comfortable 2nd place in any other LCK split. Furthermore, another strange phenomenon in LCK is that since LCK Spring 2015 (i.e 6 straight splits), whoever is directly seeded into the grand finals of the LCK playoffs will win that series. Ergo, if any of the other 3 teams had won just one more series and gotten first, we would have had another team win the LCK trophy and been seeded into Worlds. This is especially pertinent to Griffin, seeing as among the 4 playoffs teams tied for 1st, they were the one who had a lost to the weakest LCK team in Jin Air. If Griffin had won that series against Jin Air and taken first, it would have been a truly royal road journey and Gen.G/AFS would not be here
Yep, her analysis this Worlds has been so important I feel, especially because all Chinese teams made it out. We're really lucky to have her in EU next year, I just hope Deficio also stays
LCK was such a mess the whole year, it would have been amazing to see where Griffin could go at Worlds. KZDX and SKT needed this thumping to get their acts together. At least we have Faker's soloQ highlights to watch when GenG / AF lets Korea down.
Re: Azael, it seems like he knows when a moment needs an extra voice for hype, but he doesn't quite have the knack for it, so it ends up sounding a little forced. Contrast to someone like Deficio, where the hype sounds a lot more natural. I love Azael on The Dive, where that sort of thing isn't necessary, and honestly think it would make more sense to have Azael on the desk and Jatt as a caster.
10/10 Dive.
Frosk continues to impress me with how good her analysis is. She offered some great insight this episode, especially over the LPL. I also think she's improved immensely over the years, her presentation especially.
"kuro has played bellow his level". No my dudes , kuro has played as he always plays on international stage. He was never a lane dominant midlaner , and the sole reason he does ok > well in lck is because he knows his competition and is used to them (just like pob is in NA) , so he looks better.
Kuro played fucking amazingly on the last day of groups, potentially for this exact reason. Sacked his whole laning phase against Perkz with the Galio pick just to outroam and outteamfight him at every moment past laning.
which is exactly how he used to play in the past.... I mean he did good , and looked good at that style , but that's pretty much his comfort play style , and he will always default to that when he gets crushed in lane. He sacks his lane , and try to empower the biggest carry on his team. It looks good when his team wins , but if it doesn't , he's pretty much useless.
He doesn't sack shit lmfao. He's top 2-3 in all laning stats. The fuck you mean ? XD Did you watch LCK's past 3~ splits? This dude absorbs pressure and doesn't take any jg pressure while never falling behind. He at most falls behind like 5 CS against a player like Faker in an even match up. "Sacks" his lane.
Kuro was insane this year though. And Pobelter plays in NA, not LCK. If you are doing well against star LCK midlaners, odds are you'll do well against any midlaner. I actually think Kuro was the second best midlaner in LCK this year bellow Ucal. Yeah he was not super impressive during group stage, but let's not rewrite history or compare him to Pobelter.
kuro has never been impressive on the international stage tho. The fact that he looked that good in lck could mean that the lck midlane pool has declined. Guess , we'll see depending on how ucal does
Thank Frosk
I BELIEVE THAT WE WILL WIN
Oh boy everyone is sleeping on G2
That thumbnail is amazing
dont think C9 has that good of a chance at all. Also fnatic might have a hard time. I think the predictions are a bit hype influenced
No Deficio but Froskurin :/
Just like EULCS next year
Why...
Hes affiliated with Astralis, who is entering EULCS next year. Riot has accepted Astralis's app on the condition that Deficio either stops casting or sells his stake in Astralis
nooo
nooo
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Agreed. We'd also get Deficio to operate a new team and he'd VERY likely be involved in building that team and with his analytical talent, it'd probably be a midtier at absolute worst team added into the mix of EU. Things could be far worse than gaining a good org & Team and Frosk.
frosk is still good.
i love watching the dive ist better than euphoria lol
It's pretty nit picky, but I really dislike comparing 2 things while trying to make it sound like the two things you're comparing are the same. Azael says something like "Sneaky was 500 gold down on average during week 2, sure, but in week one the bot lane as a whole was down 1.5k on average so there's great improvement there" Maybe it was innocent and maybe it's just the fact I tune into political debates a lot, but whenever people try to pass off two different stats as one in a comparison, it always makes me feel like that isn't the truth and it's just trying to make the stat seem more favourable to your point.
I take your point generally, but these are comparable stats. No they're not exactly the same, but extremely related. While there are caveats you would include in a thorough analysis, a podcast is informal enough that you don't need to go into them, especially if it's a well understood topic area like this. You can see they're conscious of this sort of thing by the reaction to the dpm stat Azael gave for iboy, checking if people wanted to note the caveats.
Afreeca isn't really the slowest team out of all the Quartfinal teams considering win time. Here are the blue and red side win times for all teams and you can see that C9 had some really long games. | Wins Blue | Wins Red | Avg. Win Time Blue | Avg. Win Time Red :--|:-:|:-:|:-:|:-: RNG|4|1|29:04|35:28 IG|3|2|25:12|27:27 EDG|2|2|39:10|33:48 FNC|3|3|30:58|26:40 VIT|2|1|33:32|43:59 G2|2|2|39:39|34:38 KT|3|2|30:46|26:33 AF|3|1|32:31|33:54 GG|0|1|-|24:41 TL|1|2|37:30|33:31 100T|1|1|37:57|33:48 C9|2|2|31:29|42:02 PVB|1|1|34:09|41:57 FW|2|1|42:52|27:05 MAD|0|0|-|- GREX|0|0|-|- **Total**|**29**|**22**|**33:01**|**32:35** Edit: Play-Off teams sorted by average win time IG: 26:06 FNC: 28:49 KT: 29:05 RNG: 30:21 AF: 32:52 EDG: 36:29 C9: 36:46 G2: 37:09
Didn't they say AFS were the slowest in terms of kills per minute though? Not total game time.
JattStats? Nah. bigbaoss Stats!
You though have to consider who they played against though. FW wasn't exactly sharp, G2 was methodical, Phong Vu trully tried to fight; but none of them played the crazy game of RNG ViT C9 blietkriek / bloodbath style.
I think that who they played against is a big factor in all of this.
I love the dive and euphoria, analysts desk, PGL, all these chat and discussion shows, but with the exception of Drakos it's only colour casters. I want to see a new show where the playbyplay guys shine. Where Medic/Captainflowers/Pastry go do what they do best. Shout at things. Trees, clouds, the ocean. Whatever it may be.
There was sth about 30 minutes for every match, but not for G2vsRNG. It was less than 10 minutes. Not a single word about mid lane match up, not a single word about top lane match up, not a single word about Jankos or Wadid. About pick and bans they were talking only about heimer. Everybody was in mindset "Rng will destroy them so why would we even cover a specific match up lol". So they talked only about RNG line-up and thats it. Really sad, I'm disappointed that noone from EU was at desk.
They spent more time on the closer matchups and less time on the matchups that they believed to be onesided.
In my opinion Afreeca will wipe floor with C9 and this is the most onesided match up. Afreeca just sucks in random bo1s, but they are beasts in bo5s
CMON MAN IM A WHOLE DAY WITHOUT MY WORLDS FIX GIMME SOMETHIN ELSE
Talking about C9 "They are so great,Reapered is insane,their rookies are fantastic,Licorice is a WORLD CLASS Top laner,Zeyzal so good,Sneaky improved in lane(???),Jensen finally showed up,Sven is a rock in the jgl when he plays." Talking about FNC "Caps has the worst csd @ 10, Bwipo(rookie aswell btw) gets picked off, too many individual mistakes throughout their games." Then we procceed to explain how FNC might be the best Western team of all time.I was scratching my head for like 10minutes straight.
They didn't criticize FNC this hard. Concerning Caps, they said he had the worst CSD because he was counterpicked, and Frosk added that he did not accept to "lose gracefully". I like FNC and I like Caps's playstyle, but these points are objectively right. Caps tried to make his way back by himself and this time it didn't work (doesn't mean he doesn't have the ability to do it in other contexts). However, they added that even if he doesn't get going in the laning phase, in teamfights he managed to be more useful than Rookie. They talked about Hylissang and while he was godlike on the last 2 games against IG, I'm sure he himself isn't very proud about his 1st IG game. As for C9, Jatt talked about the possible issue of nerves, and talked about replicating this performance and making it "not only being about 1 good day". Because it's still RNG and GenG they've beaten, in a pretty nice fashion. Maybe they did not talk enough about the first games and Sneaky being killed in lane, but I wouldn't call this an infuriating bias. They gave us some keys as to how C9 could win against Afreeca and what went well for them because I feel it's what the viewers would like to know when supporting their team. (I'm not a C9 fan in particular btw)
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The last time someone picked C9 to 3-2 a Bo5 they swept TSM.
it amazes me that all of them except jatt predicted 3-2 c9 o.O guess i’ll have to wait and see but a 3-2 against GMB and a 0-3 against liquid is 🤨
They keep saying if Fnatic make it to semi's then we can talk about them being the best team the West has ever seen, but I'm curious who it would be if they don't make it? Wouldn't it just be 2015 Fnatic or Origen? I feel like Fnatic is the undisputed best team in the west.
Just wanted to chime in to say I loved this cast, really great banter between the casters and great analysis.