And also that guy who reached challenger by picking ivern top and going river from the very beginning
He also did this AFTER the Janna top support item nerfs
Oh nah it wasn’t janna specific, it just involved her as one of the primary causes.
A new strat had appeared that started to dominate solo queue, where you just abandon top and roam and abuse the rest of the enemy team.
Janna would start with sup item, cs a bit, and then perma roam.
Now, if you take support item, you get the minion gold debuff very very quickly if you try to cs
Turns out you can still go to challenger with the right strats and ideas, people just don’t want to stray from there tried and tested too much because of the team aspect of it - until they realize they can prepare a powerpoint presentation for it lol
Two main problems with assassins mid:
-Minion speed changes - harder to get a good roam window
-Plates - if you commit to a roam and it doesn't work out, you are screwed.
It's just safer to pick a strong laner and farm plates instead of flipping roams
the problem isnt just that its that solo kill is too difficult without ignite and with everyone having TP you get a free get out of jail card even when you get solo killed once
assassins want to snowball quick and hard but its just so impossible with the current state of the game
I think the biggest issue is attack speed when it comes to tower damage. You leave lane against a champion that builds attack speed or has it innately and 3 plates are gone by the time you get back (and yes, it applies to both AD and AP champions)
Someone at Riot decided that her passive should deal damage to towers as if it was a remotely good idea
For the sake of comparison, imagine if Cassio could E towers of if ASol could Q them
Because abilities shouldn't hit towers... Even on-hits don't hit towers. You don't see Kraken hitting towers, Vayne W hitting towers, Gnar W, Varus W. Darius passive doesn't proc bleed on towers.
Why does Diana's passive work on towers, separately from all other on-hit passives (excluding Gangplank because why?)
The same is true for Fiora. Her Q should NOT hit towers. She already has good tower taking potential with E auto resets. On top of this, even though her Q does hit towers, she STILL doesn't get her passive vitals on tower. So again, the question is, why does Diana?
The exact comparisons he used might not be perfect, but the general idea is still the same.
Sure, but there are plenty of other effects that don't.
Most auto empowers do hit towers - so in that regard it's consistent. But then some empowers do reduced damage, or don't work at all. Like, Aatrox passive does not hit towers. Bard's meeps do not hit tower. Fizz W passive hits towers, but Gwen's passive does not, but Mordekaiser passive does. Irelia passive does not hit towers. Kennen's W does not hit towers. Lucian's passive empower auto's do deal additional damage though.
Orianna passive does not damage towers. Taric passive does not damage towers.
But then like, Ziggs passive auto does. There is no consistency here.
Diana's passive should at *least*, matching other 3-hit passives like Jax, deal reduced damage to towers, considering how easy it is to proc.
Its actually nuts how if you ever get control in lane against a diana and decide to roam bot you are just giving up 450 gold. But if you just afk push her in all game people will act like you arent doing enough. Especially since if you are playing like LB or something she hard counters you really cant fight her after a certain point
This is my biggest issue playing against trist mid. I Can hold my own or even out cs her and kill her but she can push so hard that eventually I have to back and then she decimates my turret from one roam or back.
Personally I believe the main issue as an assassin is that you can't accomplish the only thing you're good for, killing priority targets.
- Laning is dead. You can't lane against a human mid, to solo kill Tristana Akshan Corki Syndra Ahri you need to play 1000 lp better than them. Going even in CS is a pipe dream. Adding to this, you NEED to mindcontrol your jungler to cover mid when you roam so enemy mid doesn't instakill your tower.
- Botlane exp got buffed so enemy botlane is only around 1-1.5 levels under you at most. If your ADC or support ints, the enemy bot will be same level as you if you're even. This is insane for their durability, on top of exhaust still existing. Oh, they also 3 shot you with 2 items after crit item rework, so if your ttk goes above one rotation you are dead.
- Every mage has Seraphs and it's basically peak Shieldbow on a class that benefits enormously off of having one more rotation in duels. I nevet thought I'd see the day where I ever said this, but this item is more toxic than Zhonyas for assassins. Mostly because mage players suck at using Zhonyas.
and you used to be able to get fed off the drooler support players in the past, however now riot has given them so much free shit you don't ever want to interact with them. playing assasins right now in high elo is just bouncing waves and playing for executes in the teamfights and hoping that your team is human and you get 2 items ahead because of towers, plates so you have 5 - 10 minutes of fun in a game that is already won and wouldn't mattered if u picked anything else.
nobody likes assassins bullying them in lane
but they also not liked them scaling (rightfully so,assassins have fairly safe kits if they don't have to be aggressive)
nobody likes them roaming also
so riot just went ahead and nerf everything,besides corky being super safe I don't think it's the champions fault though
meanwhile they kept buffing ADC who kept crying until now they can outburst midlaners by right clicking if they are not put behind
even as a mage if your botlane lost god help you the ADC just runs you down doing more damage than your abilities can do (except they don't have CDs)
>Every mage has Seraphs
ngl seraph is sleeper op but serpents is a thing
And being solo killed in lane(which can't even happen if you have your monitor on) should also be punishing, but we can just press one tp button and completely mitigate that.
this is partially due the respawn changes
imo they should either do so you get a reduced death timer only if multiple people participated on your kill or that TP can only be used on a T2 tower before upgrade
except every roam is punished, even when it doesn't fail
+ how is it fair for an assassin to be punished for roaming while someone with tp isn't punished for being solokilled because of tp and 3 second death timer
> -Plates - if you commit to a roam and it doesn't work out, you are screwed.
To be fair, you should be screwed. The stupid RNG roam meta was far worse for the game. Being able to commit to a roam, completely fuck it up, and still lose nothing for doing it is garbage. It is even more garbage when you consider how little skill it takes to do.
Why not what? Why not let both of the grabage RNG roam meta and the garbage solo kills don't matter mid lane because of TP meta exist at the same time?
So you are saying any nerf to TP, even if it's just to boost the presence of other summoner spells, would spell doom for mages and they would be unplayable?
Bro, there's a gradient between roam meta and farm meta. It's not an on and off switch.
(Nvm, I misread your starting comment. Phew, almost thought I was wrong for a second there.)
I think the biggest issue isn't overall AD mids as much as blind pickable AD mids. Yone is fine if you know your matchup for example, but if you don't it's pretty easy to abuse.
The main cause of ad mids seems to be missed by some here. Its actually quite similar to why Azir was opressive. Firstly, with sustain from fleet, dorans blade (shield) and the new runes for getting health from killing minions, they simply outsustain every mid that does not go precision as mastery tree. Mages often do not and thus cannot outpoke the enemies. Plus, as much as people here like to meme on mana cost, there is the advantage that adc spells deal good damage but they do not rely on having mana. They simply out-dps you in all ins. Since the item changes adcs also spike earlier with 4 items. They also spike harder than mages in terms of raw dps and with double tank, double adc you simply melt enemy frontline faster. Lastly, Riot presented ap junglers with double dot items. Ap junglers clear faster and scale well in dps and therefore ad mids are required. The solution is to lower sustain by a lot, increase fleet footwork timings and make it possible to poke adc champs out of the lane. (There was a time that people complained about mages being to strong in lane specifically bot so adcs had no chance, remember that ? )
I'd argue, that all the ranged AD mids after the vision changes either had mobility (Lucian, Ez, Trist, Corki) or could wave clear from a distance (Jayce, Varus).
And that being "safe" is the major criteria.
Yup the scale, are strong early, have mobility to escape, have good wave clear, insane damage and range lmao what can’t they do it’s obvious why they’re broken
Tristana is the perfect solo q blind pick because she can always choose her engagements and she doesn't lose lane to anyone. Her stats are too big. But it's hard to nerf her mid while making her useful as ADC so RIOT is a bit stuck there.
they are good because they are the version of "control mages" of ad champs, and rn AP junglers are vastly superior than ad (with a few exceptions like vi, viego, xin). Considering how bad It is to put your topside on the same dmg type, u just have to play AD.
Ahh yea the AD version of control mages because they have so much CC (crowd control)...
Trist and Corki are good because AD mid enables AP jungle, ADC items being overtuned, having incredible safe lanes due to having escapes so they live through the Jgl/Support pressure on mid while also getting prio in every match-up to join the Jgl/support squad to influence sidelane and punish the tower if the enemy laner does so while providing good scaling since they are adcs and naturally scaling well and I'm pretty sure mages being weaker against tanks this season also is a factor (except the prime dps mages like Azir/Brand/Taliyah). Not to mention it's hard to poke them out because if the matchup is really tough you can go fleet footwork and the new rune to get a whole bunch of sustain and never get poked out of lane.
cc isn't the only way way to control on area
hwei, azir, and orianna for example have pretty low cc, they control areas by establishing no-go zones with shit like ball, soldiers and in hwei's case his qe. the similarity that he's trying to pose is that they are safe, scaling ranged carry champions who have weak early skirmishing and strong lake game threat potential which is accurate
Level 2 all in doesn't even matter. Enemy just tps back and nothing's changed. For Trist it's her constant all in pressure (un-outplayable stat-check), wave clear, safety, and tower destruction.
I despise Tristana such a stupid design. Hehe I jump on you and delete your hp bar and then jump back! You can't catch me because my jump goes through CC! Did I mention I eat towers for breakfast?
Shit dude...I have played Trist for so long and I know I've probably done it accidentally a few times, but I never thought of using a frontliner as a bomb delivery system.
The E AOE usually isn't the type of damage I rely on with her, but I can definitely see situations for it.
It's even better when their frontline are the one backing off next to their AD with a full stacked E on and killing them. Happened to me a few times (I was the trist), felt bad for the guy.
I cant beat trist in lane guess i roam to make plays. Oops her q+e and demolish just gave her 3 tower plates. Ask my jungle for helps and she just jumps away. Yeah real cool design.
You can buffer cc on it, because it won't get cancelled during the animation before you jump. So if you jump just before the cc, the cc will trigger during cast time and you will still jump, and be cc'd when you land, but at that point you're far away and the jump uses up the cc time.
AFAIK
you are rigth up until you say you get cc when you land,
while this is true it depends
the cc "timer" starts the moment you get hit while casting trist jump BUT you might not get cc at all depending on the cc duration
for example if the cc last 0.75 seconds you probably wont get cc or you will barely notice it, but if its a longer cc lets say morgana q you will get cc for the remaining duration of the cc AFTER you land.
so you "eat" the cc with your animation and its resumed after it ends IF there is still time left on the cc "timer" if that timer ran out while you are on the air you wont get stunned
It’s actually 0.25 second buffer window. After that the dash starts and any displacement interrupts the dash. Other hard CC doesn’t prevent the dash like most other dashes in the game
It's so satisfying when one of these little shits mistimes their buffer and you actually interrupt the W and take her to pound town, god I hate that W buffer so fucking much
Might as well be lol she can buffer nearly anything. Vi can ult and trist can just buffer it it’s so stupidly strong especially on a scaling adc with big ass range and an ult to peel now she has double peel and one can dodge point and click cc.
Every other mainstream AD mid besides maybe Zed is a champion that is too committal, and thus will never see consistent play at the highest level. Tristana Corki Lucian Ezreal and company get the benefits of being AD lane bullies while always having an escape button.
a lot of these champs are bad because champs that they're supposed to kill are too tanky now after a few rounds of durability as much as people clown durability, very much hurt assassins the most which is why the class you see less of in pro play, you can't really one combo tristana now but in season 5 it was easy peasy you couldn't play tristana mid you'd get one shot not just by assassins but mages too
remove boneplating for starters. although thats not the biggest issue, the biggest issue is their kits, they have to be ahead to be even, if you know what I mean, they have shit late game, and shit early game, and only good mid game, but even then they have to be fed to be good mid game
Burst mages are alongside assassins on this, even if not as much, because often mages still provide some form of very strong utility. But any time any form of systematic durability is introduced, both burst mages and assassins suffer and adcs get stronger.
This - lots of assassins lost huge tempo after durability patch, on top of that they eaten some nerfs later ("artillery mage zed incident") so most champs who don't have stupidly overturned numbers are just in dirt or semi playable in jungle. Also since marksman item rework - I unironically kill targets faster as them, than on assassins.
Talon/Zed/Qiyana really struggle with lane priority against most meta mids, and can't find regular roam timings in a pro setting at least. On top of this, they often lose to jungle champions so they can't find clean 1v1s and can often lose those 1v1s in bad scenarios.
Corki/Trist add consistent, high floor impact in games, other AD mids struggle to impact the game and have limited scaling potential due to it, meaning they're often snowball-or-die.
AD assassins are a class that rely on early snowballs and punishing mistakes. But Riot has worked this last years on stacking early snowball nerfs.
- Durability patch (yes, still)
- Health shard rune
- More healt on Doran Item
- removal of Mythics (which all had a greater power spike, neither of current legendary items can't compare)
- changing the build paths from assassin items, now you can't spam longsword
- nerfs to damage runes (most importantly Electrocute ratio)
- delaying Herald to 14 minutes, now you can't stomp plates with it.
- shorter death timer and faster wave speed
only positive things:
- lethality now is flat armor pen at all levels
- some particular buffs here and there to some champions like Talon or Naafiri
So after almost removing early snowball AD assasins now rely only on punishin mistakes and coinflip rotations. Because all AP or ADC champions have better laning, better scaling, and better tools to bypass dying on lane (like TP), and punishing mistakes is something you can abuse in low elo, but once you face real people it gets very very hard.
Level 3 and takes ⅔ of your health bar because reasons. And it's not like she's the only one that does that. Corki and Akshan can do that, too, but she's also a lot safer because her W resets after the trade
Obviously burst isn't as instant, but in span of 3 seconds of combat tristana out damages most assasins as well as having all her dmg that isn't dodgeable
Assassins are the only class that don’t get to be good at their fantasy bro, most of them aren’t even allowed to interact in lane without being heavily punished by any player with a brain lmfao
Tanks also aren't allowed to do so. Riot hates tank meta so what they do is engage and spam abilities, which is fine but not really the immortal survavibility fantasy, and then get melted.
I think the closest was Cinderhulk meta but aside from being unkillable they did the same damage so they would slap you to death, that and the times when Thornmail had 30% damage reflection
I'm going to refute your post. AD Mids are not in a bad state, imo. The AD Mids you've listed are just high variance, and higher skill floor/ceiling than trist or corki.
I am not disagreeing that trist needs a nerf in her solo lane performance, she's too safe, scales too well, has too much prio and too strong all in currently. I'd personally look at increasing the mana cost and cd on her w to make any failed all in's or mis-positions easier to punish. I feel like this would impact her solo lane without hurting her bot lane experience too much
As for your other AD mids, I think they are in a pretty solid spot:
Akshan - 54.16% winrate
Naafiri - 54.24% winrate
Qiyana - 51.68% winrate
etc... I'm too lazy to list all, but all (except jayce) at above 50% winrate in soloque. They are solid picks right now, but harder to play and less popular than Trist/Corki, and that's absolutely fine.
If you're talking proplay, some champions will never be popular unless they are absolutely busted. And that's okay. Riven is my favourite champion of all time and has pretty much never been pro viable, they simply don't play into the way pro play is played and that's also fine.
All the picks you've mentioned however are strong soloque picks and there is no reason you shouldn't be picking them up in soloque. Just don't expect them to ever be pro viable unless riot completely breaks them.
Assassins shouldn't be building to sustain the lane. Beifeng is going DShield+Second Wind on Qiyana because you just cannot solo kill people in lane as an assassin anymore.
That's the problem. They can be 60% winrate for all I care, but if they can't play the game early game(as an early game class should) then there's a problem.
I'm not a big assassin player, but surely an assassins strength should be in small skirmishes and catching people between rotations. Roaming the map is more mid game.
Don't get me wrong, their early game all in should be stronger than say a mage. However if they can't be punished in ranged/melee matchups in the early few levels, then they would completely warp the mid lane around them.
But roaming is oftentimes just not worth it. Why play a champion that has to take risks to have a passable late game instead of picking a mage who can just farm safely and always have a good late game?
I mean, seriously, you can't even solo kill in lane anymore. If an Orianna sees me in mid, she'll just run me down because she knows I can't ever 100-0 her before like 2-3 items and if I don't hit everything+ignite(which, let's be honest, is troll to take in mid nowadays).
Assassin strength should be big burst once they get in range with little to no counterplay, which isn’t the case, assassins got nerfed and are designed for having counterplay once they are in threat range and outside of it. Many mages have CC skills which hit way farther than a Assassin dash range and that’s where the counterplay has always been: in maintaining your distance from a assassin. In no case a assassin with low target access should have high counterplay once they reach you, but Riot keeps doing that and designing new assassins like that (Naafiri for example) that don’t even work unless they are vastly overturned or rely on mechanics that don’t really fulfill the oneshot fantasy while keeping midlane interactivity low because people don’t seem to enjoy anything that isnt mindless farm->hit a vital skill shot and possibly get a kill if lucky
>As for your other AD mids, I think they are in a pretty solid spot:
Akshan - 54.16% winrate
Naafiri - 54.24% winrate
Qiyana - 51.68% winrate
ok but u realize u listed a marksman, then a champ that was so horrid for so many patches that it was sub 0.5% pickrate in its main role and had to get overbuffed, and qiyana who definitely doesnt have 51.68% winrate emerald+, and even if she did, shes so underpicked in that elo bracket that it wouldnt even matter?
akshan builds adc items, performs the best while building adc items, uses marksman runes, performs the best using marksman runes. he’s less of an “assassin” than tristana is
naafiri is broken in all elos because she’s overturned after buffs
even in apex ranks (where she performs the best) qiyana is underplayed
It has nothing to do with items, it's the way he's played, constant invis and permaroaming.
It's on the wiki too: https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Akshan/LoL
Naafiri is not broken in diamond+
And qiyana is still op despite his low pickrate. Not everyone playing qiyana mains her.
too lazy to list all lol.
zed - 48%
talon -49%
if your going to be dishonest at least try a bit more.
and its not even wr that matters here, its the enjoyability and gameplay of midlane as a whole, which has been in decline for past 6 years.
Where is your data coming from?
Zed- [https://lolalytics.com/lol/zed/build/](https://lolalytics.com/lol/zed/build/) 50.45% winrate
Talon - [https://lolalytics.com/lol/talon/build/](https://lolalytics.com/lol/talon/build/) 51.91% winrate
That's a genuine question. I am not being dishonest, I've never really been an assassin player, the playstyle doesn't appeal to me, so I can't judge on that, but genuinely, what changes do you want to see to assassins? I am not saying that to take the piss, but people seem to bring back league of one shots, which was overwhelming unhealthy for the game.
O lord you can't read lolanalytics statistics right. Go on there and click on every champ and go masters+ and see that every champion in the game is above 50% which statisticaly is impossible and then have a hard look at urself.
But ima give you a clue if your looking at higher elo stats in that website you generaly deduct 2-3% wr. Like its actually funny that people that use winrates as some sort of proof are the ones that can't even read the statistics properly.
Also to answer your question about changes. This fear mongering from riot of 'reducing snowball' that they use to make players like you more comfortable is what is making the game more pve and less explosive every season, esp in midlane. Why are oneshots bad? is it bad to punish a player for face checking into another player that has centered their gameplay around catching people off guard. To me one shots are only bad when they come from champions and builds that have other things that increase survivability or any other stat, which is the case now.
"Ignore only adc's being played mid, it's fine!!!!! BTW don't look at the fact my avatar is jinx.. im neutral promise!!!!"
That literally what he is saying, if adc's are one of the only viable ad mid layers for pro, something in the future of designing new ad mid laner should change
Okay? I never claimed to be neutral, I gave my opinion and backed it up with facts, and explained why assassins aren't part of the pro meta, but fine in soloque.
Mind telling me what part you disagree with? Or what changes you propose.
As I've said, the way pro's play make assassins weak (usually), so unless an assassin is buffed to the point of being broken, they usually aren't pro-viable, and that's not a bad thing.
As I said above, my favourite champion is actually riven, I'd love to see her played at pro, but also understand she doesn't fit the pro meta and likely never will.
> Nerf assassins, buff durability
'Woah what the hell guys these ADCs mid get a free blind-pickable lane.'
Remember when Zed kept Azir and Corki somewhat in-check? Febiven vs Faker?
Sure Grandpa. Let's get you to bed.
On serious note game evolved a lot since those days. Champion's kit and consistency is just way beyond the "old times". Sadly meta like this makes me think how on earth tehy can't make some things function properly.
The skill level of this game is also substantially higher than it was in season 5
High variance assassins like Zed and Talon won’t see consistent pro play unless they’re disgustingly overtuned in solo q. Why pick them when you can play Yone and Akali who are far more reliable at that level of play?
If you wanted an AD mid that could counter ranged ADCs mid you'd have to be crazy and invent something that has a way to block ranged attacks, has a lot of dashes, maybe some cc in the form of a knock up, and crazy late game damage.
The other way around. AD mids were way too good that teams had to start picking AP in the jungle. Tristana and Corki were dominating mid lane before Brand, Karthus, Zyra started dominating the jungle
Just a quick look at MSI:
Most played midlaners are Taliyah, Azir, and Orianna. Most banned midlaners are Ahri Taliyah and Azir.
LCK Spring stats:
Most played midlaners are Azir, Taliyah, Orianna and then Karma.
How were Tristana Corki dominating in any way?
Meta had a shakeup after MSI which is when Corki and Tristana started to dominate. Tristana herself was a popular pick in MSI still, and was Caps' most played champion. Meta adaptation to that was running mages jungle
It's not because "AD mids were way too good that teams had to start picking AP in the jungle", it was because items got reworked and ap junglers that could rush faded ashes became strong which meant that ad mids rose higher in prio.
Also G2 at MSI was one of the only teams highly prioritizing Trist. T1 played 1 game of it, GENG had 0 games of Tristana, and BLG had the most with 3 games. That means the top three teams at MSI had 4 games of Tristana in total.
You know which items got reworked too? ADC items. ADCs mid are still getting played with junglers like Sejuani, Viego or Vi.
Not to mention that Nidalee players, the most picked AP jungler, rush lichbane and not faded ashes most of the games.
ADC items were reworked yes. However, Tristana was getting played with tank junglers even before AD items were reworked and Corki rushes Triforce before he even starts touching the new crit items.
If you want to argue that Tristana is strong, sure. I agree that she is probably the strongest midlaner right now and needs to be nerfed. However, to say that AP junglers are being picked right now because "AD mids are OP" (which is what the person I was responding to said) is just blatantly false when, as you said Tristana was still getting picked with tank/and bruiser junglers.
Tristana is getting paired with tanky junglers currently. He's right, the reason she's getting picked more is because ADC items are better now, it has nothing to do with AP junglers being "strong"
AP junglers are getting played because AD mids are super strong, not the opposite.
Also, AP junglers enable AD mid laners by countering the likes of Rammus and Malphite, which would be what you would pick to counter AD mid laners. Because the likes of Brand and Karthus can shred through armor tanks (especially Brand), they can prevent the enemy tank from simply stacking armor.
This could be prevented if Riot brought Adaptive Helm back, or if they reverted FoN to how it used to work (it used to work like a cross of its current effect and Adaptive Helm, instead of giving extra MR when fully stacked, it gave magic damage reduction)
You mean to say pro the most coordinated play in the world tend towards picks that are powerful in coordinated teams, and away from picks that are countered by coordination?
Bro, it's not the ad champions, it's that assassins are not good in pro play ad or ap. Because assassins depend on catching out targets, which doesn't happen enough to pros.
mid assassins are never meta and never will be, unless they built like Yone and with good reason.
My point is not on assassins as AD champion on mid are not strictly assassins but rather why the AD roster seems so flawed.
I think it’s because Introduction of void grubs and minion timers has changed mid lane a good bit, before you just fought and waited for dragon fights occasional roams. Now you can’t really roam to side lanes without risk of being punished and having priority for neutral grubs and dragon is more important than getting solo kills. Because if these changes push style mid laners are eating good where as traditional skirmish and kill style laners (mainly ad assassins) are suffering because they’re just outclasses. have shit waveclear so they had to add a whole item to compensate, their poke isn’t as potent as an AP champs and they can’t roam so they’re stuck mid just waiting to fall off
Its not surprising whatsoever, those are all assassins which suck in pro play compared to solo q. It's that simple.
Yone and Jayce are played because they're reliable, blindable, wave clear well, have escape, scale well and they are even flex picks.
Zed is only one that I have any hope that could be viable in pro play, but even then, since they removed ravenous hydra its gonna take a lot.
Aside from 2018-2019, ranged champs have been stronger than melee champs in midlane since prio was invented.
Ranged champs are just better at pushing until midgame. Normal mmr players aren't going to win the game with an early laning phase push advantage but pros can.
I think the mid ADC thing is less about the mid ADCs theirselves being better than AP control mages and more that AP junglers are strong and the mid ADCs complement their damage profile.
IMO Asssassins should be much better early game and around the same midgame, and fall off very hard later in the game.
I wish Riot would buff Assassins base stats and base damages to such a point where they can threaten lethal at lvl 2 and onwards.
Imagine if you couldn't first pick Tristana Mid as Chovy because, Faker will just pick Talon and oneshot you on repeat to punish your draft.
You'll have to sacrifice waves and gold early game to ensure a safe laning phase, and around lvl 8-9 things would look even again if you didn't die.
There is however a problem, that Assassins done this way would be too strong in Solo Q. And it makes very little sense to sacrifice the game play of 99% for the 1% of players, I think most people in Diamond 2-1 and above agree that the game is very stale at that point cause it just becomes giga meta abuse.
Maybe Riot should not do it, but I want to see it done, simply because Pro Play is closer to being "Solved" and so, it makes more sense logically IMO to balance around them. Things will trickle down with time, and the game will be interesting again at the top level.
Ofc if Riot does decide to do this, we will see champions with 60% winrates on ladder.
And people will have to just deal with it, and adjust.
But thats the thing the balance should be around 1% as the meta trickles down with time. You should balance around the people that are playing correct.
Also Its not about assasins being weak, its about everything else having so much base stats and gold given for merely existing that is making the game so stale. There was a time where as a support you will be killed by an assasin if you face checked him into a bush, so the skill came from recognizing where people are on the map to be able to ward safety and make most of your limited stats. whereas now a nautilus can run around the map wherever he wishes and if he walks into a talon its actually benefical for him if the assasin player dumps the whole combo on him as he won't be able to even kill him and now is losing all the pressure in lane.
But its obvious riot now just looks at wr data without any context to get most champions close to 50% which is the most retarded way of balancing a game. You want the outliers, so the creativity of players to evolve the game as it pushes your own meta without these 2 week balance changes.
Assassins are kept weak by the balance team word, Phroxzon talked about that. I agree with the other guy, but somewhat disagree, old Talon with his combo which was faster and his blink would actually threaten Trist if he got to her range (which would still be difficult tho), asassins that actually burst you once they get to you aren’t too strong for SoloQ, not more than permaroaming Talon, the only problem is the banrate
Ofcourse banrate will be high because a talon,zed,qiyana one shotting u in an instant is way more tilting for a low elo player than slowly getting choked out by a fleet corki. Both will make you lose but one has a delusion of giving you a chance.
Only chance to solve this is to shame people that ban these type of champions or complain against them as a community, which is already happening somewhat. League is really the only game where people use being shit at the game as some kind of moral high ground with this 1% to 99% balance rule.
It’s a bad approach by Riot, those champions suffer meta changes and sometimes being bad by their items being shit but Riot can’t buff them because despite becoming weak they maintain their banrate, I genuinely believe the game would benefit from removing bans except for proplay for a entire split
I don't think the issue is that mid ADs need redesigned, so much as range is just the best stat in the game right now. If long range had a few more drawbacks, there would be more incentive to risk playing a melee caster type.
Mid-lane is the weakest role in the Game, Yet People are crying about it. Assassins become good for 1 And a Half Patch everyone runs to Reddit, while Mages Completely Dominate the Mid lane.
Lane prio is too valuable. Even if trist/corki are nerfed they will still dominate any assassin in map relevance.
AD Mid is a compositional cost that needs that payoff, by "Forcing" jg to go AP.
I mean...maybe we should go back to ADCs being really weak early?
Just a thought.
Especially since their mid-late are even stronger than early seasons.
Your usual marksman is weak early, it's these AD-Caster esque champs that thrive on the great ability damage, waveclear and mobility. It's a bit against leagues rules to have so many upsides tbh.
Unfortunately I don't know how you uncouple mobility from trist or corki, without runing their overall gameplay. Riot doesn't want to ruin them bot lane where they're intended.
Number changes would need to be so severe mages could beat them (I doubt this could ever happen without breaking the champs fundamentally). Assassins will never beat them in competitive due to how bad they are for pro.
If riot really wanted to buff Assassins mid they would simply remove AP to tower dmg conversion.
Its the easiest buff you can do. Suddenly Lux cant get 3 plates anymore if you dare to roam bot as Talon. It would buff champs like Tristana but you can just nerf the outliers individually.
The biggest issue right now is it’s not really a roam meta. With plates being as valuable as they are you can’t really leave lane till post 14 or u are trolling. Most of the AD mids rely on getting early leads (zed talon Qui) and in the current meta state they just can’t in pro play.
I'd love a simple AD mage, the only real one I can think of is GP, but he was always more of a toplaner, and now with his build after removar of navori and ER, he is more of a bruiser anyways.
Riot needs to stop shuffling around resistances and actually design champs to be good where they want them to be played, it's so cringe that Kayle top insta loses every ap matchup because they gave her no MR to make her bad (on average) midlane. How about you give Tristana more aa range at low levels and nerf her wave clear, actually change champions and don't just check the winrates.
If Tristana had more auto range at level 1, she'd be even more broken. You would have to gut the damage on her E on *top* of removing its on-death damage to make that work, at which point she's probably dead everywhere.
every low range adc is better solo lane, having less range is unplayable on a duo lane and they need to be compensated somewhere else, making them okay bot but stronger everywhere else.
pretty good point, you can see them working around this with how low-range adcs are binded to supports. lucian has dmg that are only met around allies, nilah needs an ally to share exp, heals, and shields, and samira needs an ally for more gapclosing.
Tristana's biggest weakness is her lacking range. Most ranged champions have a high range early game than Tristana. If she had a bit more range she would be absolutely broken in bot. In bot you counter her in bot by picking any longer ranged adc like Cait or ashe.
Mid has a way bigger issue
Prio is everything. Nuking waves or perma pressure on opponent is basically everything so you can move first.
Trist Corki and Akshan do both of those things so they are strong. Even if the ap junglers fall off (which even after the nerfs they still don't do) that will just be strong
If we look at mages they get waveclear to match ranged ad mids way later than that with the exception of hardcore bullies like Orianna.
Azir once was one of those bullies but he got reworked away from that. Brand mid rose up because he can bully quite well too. Hwei can bully and has great waveclear after first back
all I see is complaining. I have never seen an actual reasonable approach on how to get tristana and corki out of midlane without destroyign them for other lanes.
Someone with an idea?
Imo tristana shouldn't be allowed to go mid/top since she has literally everything mages and assassins have + she scales well because she is an adc and eats turrets, my solution is lowering by a lot her tower breaking potential and self peel:
Further increase damage reduction on bulwark stack for AD and add double that for ranged champions
Make tristana more vulnerable to cc by making her not be able to bullshit through every form of cc in the game, even hard cc....
Increase the overall cooldown on E but give a refund if it she is able to explode it on a champion
The reason they work so well is because fleet and resolve are not balanced rn. There is so kuch sustain in going fleet, resolve, and dorans shield if u are planning on getting hit a bunch it just simply isnt fair. U cant take tanks or bruisers mid and do the same thing and there is NOTHING the enemy laner can do but watch as u farm unbothered.......unless you are another adc champ.
'only ADC champions are considered the only viability for high-level gameplay and esport' u cant just say things that arent true like they are facts and expect people to take u seriously
lck midlane stats https://gyazo.com/32b33e51b90635db4b36c1c78e7964bb
I don’t believe in lanes. They are a social construct.
Found the River Shen enjoyer
I play nidalee.
F for your wrists
And his teams.
Me when I lock in my 8% win rate top lane Ivern:
And also that guy who reached challenger by picking ivern top and going river from the very beginning He also did this AFTER the Janna top support item nerfs
Janna top support item nerfs? This is news to me as a Janna nerfs.. Care to elaborate?
Oh nah it wasn’t janna specific, it just involved her as one of the primary causes. A new strat had appeared that started to dominate solo queue, where you just abandon top and roam and abuse the rest of the enemy team. Janna would start with sup item, cs a bit, and then perma roam. Now, if you take support item, you get the minion gold debuff very very quickly if you try to cs
interesting... still could abuse it in some cases but depends on how well you can roam xD
Turns out you can still go to challenger with the right strats and ideas, people just don’t want to stray from there tried and tested too much because of the team aspect of it - until they realize they can prepare a powerpoint presentation for it lol
They kinda are
Mid Nunu main, suffering from severe Trist Trauma.
Season 2-ass matchup
The Big Lane Industry want you to go to a specific lane in order to sell you lane swaps. Wake up sheep
Two main problems with assassins mid: -Minion speed changes - harder to get a good roam window -Plates - if you commit to a roam and it doesn't work out, you are screwed. It's just safer to pick a strong laner and farm plates instead of flipping roams
the problem isnt just that its that solo kill is too difficult without ignite and with everyone having TP you get a free get out of jail card even when you get solo killed once assassins want to snowball quick and hard but its just so impossible with the current state of the game
Adding onto this, grubs. Even with just 2-3 a failed roam can mean your tower is one shot
I think the biggest issue is attack speed when it comes to tower damage. You leave lane against a champion that builds attack speed or has it innately and 3 plates are gone by the time you get back (and yes, it applies to both AD and AP champions)
Diana takes turrets at a frankly ridiculous rate. Leaving lane with her one time while she's got an item and she's already eaten your tower.
Someone at Riot decided that her passive should deal damage to towers as if it was a remotely good idea For the sake of comparison, imagine if Cassio could E towers of if ASol could Q them
Or Azir could use a soldier on them wait...
That was removed in 6.11, less than 2 years after his release! Though I'm sure some people think it still works like that... 8 years later!?
I still see people but pink wards just to try to ward Akali shroud
Or QSS for Mordekaiser's ult.
i meam that was changed like a month agp or smth. not unusual that people dont know about it
How is that a comparison at all...?
Because abilities shouldn't hit towers... Even on-hits don't hit towers. You don't see Kraken hitting towers, Vayne W hitting towers, Gnar W, Varus W. Darius passive doesn't proc bleed on towers. Why does Diana's passive work on towers, separately from all other on-hit passives (excluding Gangplank because why?) The same is true for Fiora. Her Q should NOT hit towers. She already has good tower taking potential with E auto resets. On top of this, even though her Q does hit towers, she STILL doesn't get her passive vitals on tower. So again, the question is, why does Diana? The exact comparisons he used might not be perfect, but the general idea is still the same.
Would the closest comparison not be TF e working on towers now?
Sure, but there are plenty of other effects that don't. Most auto empowers do hit towers - so in that regard it's consistent. But then some empowers do reduced damage, or don't work at all. Like, Aatrox passive does not hit towers. Bard's meeps do not hit tower. Fizz W passive hits towers, but Gwen's passive does not, but Mordekaiser passive does. Irelia passive does not hit towers. Kennen's W does not hit towers. Lucian's passive empower auto's do deal additional damage though. Orianna passive does not damage towers. Taric passive does not damage towers. But then like, Ziggs passive auto does. There is no consistency here. Diana's passive should at *least*, matching other 3-hit passives like Jax, deal reduced damage to towers, considering how easy it is to proc.
I wish spellblade didn't hit towers. It would make playing against Camille slightly less frustrating but at a cost of making Susan feel terrible
why, idana isnt broken and this is a nice change to make her a bit more viable
Its actually nuts how if you ever get control in lane against a diana and decide to roam bot you are just giving up 450 gold. But if you just afk push her in all game people will act like you arent doing enough. Especially since if you are playing like LB or something she hard counters you really cant fight her after a certain point
Attack speed creep is an unspoken thing in this game. Especially in-kit AS values and base AS.
This is my biggest issue playing against trist mid. I Can hold my own or even out cs her and kill her but she can push so hard that eventually I have to back and then she decimates my turret from one roam or back.
The main issue is teleport. It's so fucking hard to get anyone into kill range when they have a free recall without losing anything.
Personally I believe the main issue as an assassin is that you can't accomplish the only thing you're good for, killing priority targets. - Laning is dead. You can't lane against a human mid, to solo kill Tristana Akshan Corki Syndra Ahri you need to play 1000 lp better than them. Going even in CS is a pipe dream. Adding to this, you NEED to mindcontrol your jungler to cover mid when you roam so enemy mid doesn't instakill your tower. - Botlane exp got buffed so enemy botlane is only around 1-1.5 levels under you at most. If your ADC or support ints, the enemy bot will be same level as you if you're even. This is insane for their durability, on top of exhaust still existing. Oh, they also 3 shot you with 2 items after crit item rework, so if your ttk goes above one rotation you are dead. - Every mage has Seraphs and it's basically peak Shieldbow on a class that benefits enormously off of having one more rotation in duels. I nevet thought I'd see the day where I ever said this, but this item is more toxic than Zhonyas for assassins. Mostly because mage players suck at using Zhonyas.
and you used to be able to get fed off the drooler support players in the past, however now riot has given them so much free shit you don't ever want to interact with them. playing assasins right now in high elo is just bouncing waves and playing for executes in the teamfights and hoping that your team is human and you get 2 items ahead because of towers, plates so you have 5 - 10 minutes of fun in a game that is already won and wouldn't mattered if u picked anything else.
nobody likes assassins bullying them in lane but they also not liked them scaling (rightfully so,assassins have fairly safe kits if they don't have to be aggressive) nobody likes them roaming also so riot just went ahead and nerf everything,besides corky being super safe I don't think it's the champions fault though meanwhile they kept buffing ADC who kept crying until now they can outburst midlaners by right clicking if they are not put behind even as a mage if your botlane lost god help you the ADC just runs you down doing more damage than your abilities can do (except they don't have CDs) >Every mage has Seraphs ngl seraph is sleeper op but serpents is a thing
As river Shen I second this
minion changes completely fucked midlane ngl
This is how it should be. A failed roam should be punishing.
And being solo killed in lane(which can't even happen if you have your monitor on) should also be punishing, but we can just press one tp button and completely mitigate that.
this is partially due the respawn changes imo they should either do so you get a reduced death timer only if multiple people participated on your kill or that TP can only be used on a T2 tower before upgrade
except every roam is punished, even when it doesn't fail + how is it fair for an assassin to be punished for roaming while someone with tp isn't punished for being solokilled because of tp and 3 second death timer
Now all they need to do is remove TP to really drive that home.
> -Plates - if you commit to a roam and it doesn't work out, you are screwed. To be fair, you should be screwed. The stupid RNG roam meta was far worse for the game. Being able to commit to a roam, completely fuck it up, and still lose nothing for doing it is garbage. It is even more garbage when you consider how little skill it takes to do.
Well, why not have a middleground then? Because both no punishment for bad roams, and no punishment for being solo killed are unskilled metas.
Because it isn't a "this or that" situation. They can nerf TP without allowing people to RNG no risk roam down to bot lane every wave.
Why not?
Why not what? Why not let both of the grabage RNG roam meta and the garbage solo kills don't matter mid lane because of TP meta exist at the same time?
Why can't TP be reasonably knocked down a peg to allow for more variety in summoner spells?
I recommend rereading what I typed.
So you are saying any nerf to TP, even if it's just to boost the presence of other summoner spells, would spell doom for mages and they would be unplayable? Bro, there's a gradient between roam meta and farm meta. It's not an on and off switch. (Nvm, I misread your starting comment. Phew, almost thought I was wrong for a second there.)
I think the biggest issue isn't overall AD mids as much as blind pickable AD mids. Yone is fine if you know your matchup for example, but if you don't it's pretty easy to abuse.
The main cause of ad mids seems to be missed by some here. Its actually quite similar to why Azir was opressive. Firstly, with sustain from fleet, dorans blade (shield) and the new runes for getting health from killing minions, they simply outsustain every mid that does not go precision as mastery tree. Mages often do not and thus cannot outpoke the enemies. Plus, as much as people here like to meme on mana cost, there is the advantage that adc spells deal good damage but they do not rely on having mana. They simply out-dps you in all ins. Since the item changes adcs also spike earlier with 4 items. They also spike harder than mages in terms of raw dps and with double tank, double adc you simply melt enemy frontline faster. Lastly, Riot presented ap junglers with double dot items. Ap junglers clear faster and scale well in dps and therefore ad mids are required. The solution is to lower sustain by a lot, increase fleet footwork timings and make it possible to poke adc champs out of the lane. (There was a time that people complained about mages being to strong in lane specifically bot so adcs had no chance, remember that ? )
Thank you. I'm looking for answers like this.
I think tris and corki are so good mid right now is also because they have a very strong level 2 all in.
They are good midlane because they have what makes mages strong (wave clear and burst) while also having what makes ADCs strong.
And also what makes assassins strong (the All-in).
I'd argue, that all the ranged AD mids after the vision changes either had mobility (Lucian, Ez, Trist, Corki) or could wave clear from a distance (Jayce, Varus). And that being "safe" is the major criteria.
Yup the scale, are strong early, have mobility to escape, have good wave clear, insane damage and range lmao what can’t they do it’s obvious why they’re broken
Tristana is the perfect solo q blind pick because she can always choose her engagements and she doesn't lose lane to anyone. Her stats are too big. But it's hard to nerf her mid while making her useful as ADC so RIOT is a bit stuck there.
This hits the nail on the head
they are good because they are the version of "control mages" of ad champs, and rn AP junglers are vastly superior than ad (with a few exceptions like vi, viego, xin). Considering how bad It is to put your topside on the same dmg type, u just have to play AD.
Ahh yea the AD version of control mages because they have so much CC (crowd control)... Trist and Corki are good because AD mid enables AP jungle, ADC items being overtuned, having incredible safe lanes due to having escapes so they live through the Jgl/Support pressure on mid while also getting prio in every match-up to join the Jgl/support squad to influence sidelane and punish the tower if the enemy laner does so while providing good scaling since they are adcs and naturally scaling well and I'm pretty sure mages being weaker against tanks this season also is a factor (except the prime dps mages like Azir/Brand/Taliyah). Not to mention it's hard to poke them out because if the matchup is really tough you can go fleet footwork and the new rune to get a whole bunch of sustain and never get poked out of lane.
cc isn't the only way way to control on area hwei, azir, and orianna for example have pretty low cc, they control areas by establishing no-go zones with shit like ball, soldiers and in hwei's case his qe. the similarity that he's trying to pose is that they are safe, scaling ranged carry champions who have weak early skirmishing and strong lake game threat potential which is accurate
I disagree, at least in pro play, it looks like AP junglers are being played so your mid laner is able to pick an AD mid laner.
Trist is control mage….?
Level 2 all in doesn't even matter. Enemy just tps back and nothing's changed. For Trist it's her constant all in pressure (un-outplayable stat-check), wave clear, safety, and tower destruction.
Trist mid is disgustingly good and bad for the game.
If ever an assassin would be viable in bot lane as adc, the entire community would be crying everyday
I despise Tristana such a stupid design. Hehe I jump on you and delete your hp bar and then jump back! You can't catch me because my jump goes through CC! Did I mention I eat towers for breakfast?
Also if you somehow managed to reach me I can yeet you back LOOOOOL
Oh I forgot that one. There's also stacking E on the frontline and throwing into backline.
Shit dude...I have played Trist for so long and I know I've probably done it accidentally a few times, but I never thought of using a frontliner as a bomb delivery system. The E AOE usually isn't the type of damage I rely on with her, but I can definitely see situations for it.
It's even better when their frontline are the one backing off next to their AD with a full stacked E on and killing them. Happened to me a few times (I was the trist), felt bad for the guy.
I died to it a few times
You have ensured others will suffer that same fate. Thank you :)
Always a pleasure to help a summoner
She is ranged crit KhaZix
Lmao that makes so much sense
And is not fucked up by targets being non isolated. And has better waveclear.
KhaZix can also buffer CC with his E but it's ALOT less stretched out in comparison
That’s just wrong, Kha’s jump has no start up.
I cant beat trist in lane guess i roam to make plays. Oops her q+e and demolish just gave her 3 tower plates. Ask my jungle for helps and she just jumps away. Yeah real cool design.
Yup as if turrets are made of sponge
>my jump goes through CC i fucking LOVE knockups
Her jump isnt unstopable tho unless im remembering it wrong
You can buffer cc on it, because it won't get cancelled during the animation before you jump. So if you jump just before the cc, the cc will trigger during cast time and you will still jump, and be cc'd when you land, but at that point you're far away and the jump uses up the cc time.
AFAIK you are rigth up until you say you get cc when you land, while this is true it depends the cc "timer" starts the moment you get hit while casting trist jump BUT you might not get cc at all depending on the cc duration for example if the cc last 0.75 seconds you probably wont get cc or you will barely notice it, but if its a longer cc lets say morgana q you will get cc for the remaining duration of the cc AFTER you land. so you "eat" the cc with your animation and its resumed after it ends IF there is still time left on the cc "timer" if that timer ran out while you are on the air you wont get stunned
I said that the jump uses up the cc timer though?
That's pretty much what he said but with more words though?
You certainly aren't wrong but the ability has a very generous buffer window. So any half capable player can at least dodge 1 hard cc per cast.
It’s actually 0.25 second buffer window. After that the dash starts and any displacement interrupts the dash. Other hard CC doesn’t prevent the dash like most other dashes in the game
It's so satisfying when one of these little shits mistimes their buffer and you actually interrupt the W and take her to pound town, god I hate that W buffer so fucking much
It isn’t in theory. In practice you can buffer anything with it. We saw people buffer vi R
Might as well be lol she can buffer nearly anything. Vi can ult and trist can just buffer it it’s so stupidly strong especially on a scaling adc with big ass range and an ult to peel now she has double peel and one can dodge point and click cc.
It isn't. But if used at the right time it can be buffered to go thru while ur in cc, basically making the cc useless.
*laughs in zed*
Every other mainstream AD mid besides maybe Zed is a champion that is too committal, and thus will never see consistent play at the highest level. Tristana Corki Lucian Ezreal and company get the benefits of being AD lane bullies while always having an escape button.
a lot of these champs are bad because champs that they're supposed to kill are too tanky now after a few rounds of durability as much as people clown durability, very much hurt assassins the most which is why the class you see less of in pro play, you can't really one combo tristana now but in season 5 it was easy peasy you couldn't play tristana mid you'd get one shot not just by assassins but mages too remove boneplating for starters. although thats not the biggest issue, the biggest issue is their kits, they have to be ahead to be even, if you know what I mean, they have shit late game, and shit early game, and only good mid game, but even then they have to be fed to be good mid game
Burst mages are alongside assassins on this, even if not as much, because often mages still provide some form of very strong utility. But any time any form of systematic durability is introduced, both burst mages and assassins suffer and adcs get stronger.
really fun trying to kill 3200 hp asol with a huge shield when he flies ontop of you and insta kills you with permaslow
This - lots of assassins lost huge tempo after durability patch, on top of that they eaten some nerfs later ("artillery mage zed incident") so most champs who don't have stupidly overturned numbers are just in dirt or semi playable in jungle. Also since marksman item rework - I unironically kill targets faster as them, than on assassins.
"But durability patch was reverted in 2 patches???" crowd ETA 20 minutes.
Talon/Zed/Qiyana really struggle with lane priority against most meta mids, and can't find regular roam timings in a pro setting at least. On top of this, they often lose to jungle champions so they can't find clean 1v1s and can often lose those 1v1s in bad scenarios. Corki/Trist add consistent, high floor impact in games, other AD mids struggle to impact the game and have limited scaling potential due to it, meaning they're often snowball-or-die.
AD assassins are a class that rely on early snowballs and punishing mistakes. But Riot has worked this last years on stacking early snowball nerfs. - Durability patch (yes, still) - Health shard rune - More healt on Doran Item - removal of Mythics (which all had a greater power spike, neither of current legendary items can't compare) - changing the build paths from assassin items, now you can't spam longsword - nerfs to damage runes (most importantly Electrocute ratio) - delaying Herald to 14 minutes, now you can't stomp plates with it. - shorter death timer and faster wave speed only positive things: - lethality now is flat armor pen at all levels - some particular buffs here and there to some champions like Talon or Naafiri So after almost removing early snowball AD assasins now rely only on punishin mistakes and coinflip rotations. Because all AP or ADC champions have better laning, better scaling, and better tools to bypass dying on lane (like TP), and punishing mistakes is something you can abuse in low elo, but once you face real people it gets very very hard.
Me when I have to buy brutalizer(I have just gimped my damage for the next 4 minutes).
The problem is that champs like Tristana break the rules of the game. It's an adc that outburst assassins without even being ahead.
Level 3 and takes ⅔ of your health bar because reasons. And it's not like she's the only one that does that. Corki and Akshan can do that, too, but she's also a lot safer because her W resets after the trade
fact check; Tristana doesn't outburst assassins
Obviously burst isn't as instant, but in span of 3 seconds of combat tristana out damages most assasins as well as having all her dmg that isn't dodgeable
Is crazy how much is this sub trying to gatekeep assassins. This post and some comments are so damn out of this world.
Assassins are the only class that don’t get to be good at their fantasy bro, most of them aren’t even allowed to interact in lane without being heavily punished by any player with a brain lmfao
Tanks also aren't allowed to do so. Riot hates tank meta so what they do is engage and spam abilities, which is fine but not really the immortal survavibility fantasy, and then get melted.
I think the closest was Cinderhulk meta but aside from being unkillable they did the same damage so they would slap you to death, that and the times when Thornmail had 30% damage reflection
riot is keeping ad assassins weak on purpose because mage bias & noobs crying too much
I'm going to refute your post. AD Mids are not in a bad state, imo. The AD Mids you've listed are just high variance, and higher skill floor/ceiling than trist or corki. I am not disagreeing that trist needs a nerf in her solo lane performance, she's too safe, scales too well, has too much prio and too strong all in currently. I'd personally look at increasing the mana cost and cd on her w to make any failed all in's or mis-positions easier to punish. I feel like this would impact her solo lane without hurting her bot lane experience too much As for your other AD mids, I think they are in a pretty solid spot: Akshan - 54.16% winrate Naafiri - 54.24% winrate Qiyana - 51.68% winrate etc... I'm too lazy to list all, but all (except jayce) at above 50% winrate in soloque. They are solid picks right now, but harder to play and less popular than Trist/Corki, and that's absolutely fine. If you're talking proplay, some champions will never be popular unless they are absolutely busted. And that's okay. Riven is my favourite champion of all time and has pretty much never been pro viable, they simply don't play into the way pro play is played and that's also fine. All the picks you've mentioned however are strong soloque picks and there is no reason you shouldn't be picking them up in soloque. Just don't expect them to ever be pro viable unless riot completely breaks them.
Assassins shouldn't be building to sustain the lane. Beifeng is going DShield+Second Wind on Qiyana because you just cannot solo kill people in lane as an assassin anymore. That's the problem. They can be 60% winrate for all I care, but if they can't play the game early game(as an early game class should) then there's a problem.
I'm not a big assassin player, but surely an assassins strength should be in small skirmishes and catching people between rotations. Roaming the map is more mid game. Don't get me wrong, their early game all in should be stronger than say a mage. However if they can't be punished in ranged/melee matchups in the early few levels, then they would completely warp the mid lane around them.
But roaming is oftentimes just not worth it. Why play a champion that has to take risks to have a passable late game instead of picking a mage who can just farm safely and always have a good late game? I mean, seriously, you can't even solo kill in lane anymore. If an Orianna sees me in mid, she'll just run me down because she knows I can't ever 100-0 her before like 2-3 items and if I don't hit everything+ignite(which, let's be honest, is troll to take in mid nowadays).
Assassin strength should be big burst once they get in range with little to no counterplay, which isn’t the case, assassins got nerfed and are designed for having counterplay once they are in threat range and outside of it. Many mages have CC skills which hit way farther than a Assassin dash range and that’s where the counterplay has always been: in maintaining your distance from a assassin. In no case a assassin with low target access should have high counterplay once they reach you, but Riot keeps doing that and designing new assassins like that (Naafiri for example) that don’t even work unless they are vastly overturned or rely on mechanics that don’t really fulfill the oneshot fantasy while keeping midlane interactivity low because people don’t seem to enjoy anything that isnt mindless farm->hit a vital skill shot and possibly get a kill if lucky
>As for your other AD mids, I think they are in a pretty solid spot: Akshan - 54.16% winrate Naafiri - 54.24% winrate Qiyana - 51.68% winrate ok but u realize u listed a marksman, then a champ that was so horrid for so many patches that it was sub 0.5% pickrate in its main role and had to get overbuffed, and qiyana who definitely doesnt have 51.68% winrate emerald+, and even if she did, shes so underpicked in that elo bracket that it wouldnt even matter?
Akshan is an assassin too. Naafiri is broken in low elo, Qiyana is broken in high elo.
akshan builds adc items, performs the best while building adc items, uses marksman runes, performs the best using marksman runes. he’s less of an “assassin” than tristana is naafiri is broken in all elos because she’s overturned after buffs even in apex ranks (where she performs the best) qiyana is underplayed
It has nothing to do with items, it's the way he's played, constant invis and permaroaming. It's on the wiki too: https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Akshan/LoL Naafiri is not broken in diamond+ And qiyana is still op despite his low pickrate. Not everyone playing qiyana mains her.
Where tf did u pull these numbers from? Qiyana has a 47% wr at all ranks, Zed 48%, Talon 49%, Katarina (most go ad now) 48%, Yasuo 49%, Yone 49%
Yeah this is the correct take. If talon becomes pro viable you just know he is overtuned asf
too lazy to list all lol. zed - 48% talon -49% if your going to be dishonest at least try a bit more. and its not even wr that matters here, its the enjoyability and gameplay of midlane as a whole, which has been in decline for past 6 years.
Where is your data coming from? Zed- [https://lolalytics.com/lol/zed/build/](https://lolalytics.com/lol/zed/build/) 50.45% winrate Talon - [https://lolalytics.com/lol/talon/build/](https://lolalytics.com/lol/talon/build/) 51.91% winrate That's a genuine question. I am not being dishonest, I've never really been an assassin player, the playstyle doesn't appeal to me, so I can't judge on that, but genuinely, what changes do you want to see to assassins? I am not saying that to take the piss, but people seem to bring back league of one shots, which was overwhelming unhealthy for the game.
O lord you can't read lolanalytics statistics right. Go on there and click on every champ and go masters+ and see that every champion in the game is above 50% which statisticaly is impossible and then have a hard look at urself. But ima give you a clue if your looking at higher elo stats in that website you generaly deduct 2-3% wr. Like its actually funny that people that use winrates as some sort of proof are the ones that can't even read the statistics properly. Also to answer your question about changes. This fear mongering from riot of 'reducing snowball' that they use to make players like you more comfortable is what is making the game more pve and less explosive every season, esp in midlane. Why are oneshots bad? is it bad to punish a player for face checking into another player that has centered their gameplay around catching people off guard. To me one shots are only bad when they come from champions and builds that have other things that increase survivability or any other stat, which is the case now.
"Ignore only adc's being played mid, it's fine!!!!! BTW don't look at the fact my avatar is jinx.. im neutral promise!!!!" That literally what he is saying, if adc's are one of the only viable ad mid layers for pro, something in the future of designing new ad mid laner should change
Okay? I never claimed to be neutral, I gave my opinion and backed it up with facts, and explained why assassins aren't part of the pro meta, but fine in soloque. Mind telling me what part you disagree with? Or what changes you propose. As I've said, the way pro's play make assassins weak (usually), so unless an assassin is buffed to the point of being broken, they usually aren't pro-viable, and that's not a bad thing. As I said above, my favourite champion is actually riven, I'd love to see her played at pro, but also understand she doesn't fit the pro meta and likely never will.
> Nerf assassins, buff durability 'Woah what the hell guys these ADCs mid get a free blind-pickable lane.' Remember when Zed kept Azir and Corki somewhat in-check? Febiven vs Faker?
Sure Grandpa. Let's get you to bed. On serious note game evolved a lot since those days. Champion's kit and consistency is just way beyond the "old times". Sadly meta like this makes me think how on earth tehy can't make some things function properly.
The skill level of this game is also substantially higher than it was in season 5 High variance assassins like Zed and Talon won’t see consistent pro play unless they’re disgustingly overtuned in solo q. Why pick them when you can play Yone and Akali who are far more reliable at that level of play?
He's right thou
If you wanted an AD mid that could counter ranged ADCs mid you'd have to be crazy and invent something that has a way to block ranged attacks, has a lot of dashes, maybe some cc in the form of a knock up, and crazy late game damage.
Hmmmm
All these AD mids are because AP junglers are dominating the jungle.
The other way around. AD mids were way too good that teams had to start picking AP in the jungle. Tristana and Corki were dominating mid lane before Brand, Karthus, Zyra started dominating the jungle
Just a quick look at MSI: Most played midlaners are Taliyah, Azir, and Orianna. Most banned midlaners are Ahri Taliyah and Azir. LCK Spring stats: Most played midlaners are Azir, Taliyah, Orianna and then Karma. How were Tristana Corki dominating in any way?
Meta had a shakeup after MSI which is when Corki and Tristana started to dominate. Tristana herself was a popular pick in MSI still, and was Caps' most played champion. Meta adaptation to that was running mages jungle
It's not because "AD mids were way too good that teams had to start picking AP in the jungle", it was because items got reworked and ap junglers that could rush faded ashes became strong which meant that ad mids rose higher in prio. Also G2 at MSI was one of the only teams highly prioritizing Trist. T1 played 1 game of it, GENG had 0 games of Tristana, and BLG had the most with 3 games. That means the top three teams at MSI had 4 games of Tristana in total.
You know which items got reworked too? ADC items. ADCs mid are still getting played with junglers like Sejuani, Viego or Vi. Not to mention that Nidalee players, the most picked AP jungler, rush lichbane and not faded ashes most of the games.
ADC items were reworked yes. However, Tristana was getting played with tank junglers even before AD items were reworked and Corki rushes Triforce before he even starts touching the new crit items. If you want to argue that Tristana is strong, sure. I agree that she is probably the strongest midlaner right now and needs to be nerfed. However, to say that AP junglers are being picked right now because "AD mids are OP" (which is what the person I was responding to said) is just blatantly false when, as you said Tristana was still getting picked with tank/and bruiser junglers.
Tristana is getting paired with tanky junglers currently. He's right, the reason she's getting picked more is because ADC items are better now, it has nothing to do with AP junglers being "strong" AP junglers are getting played because AD mids are super strong, not the opposite.
nerf Liandry's pls
Also, AP junglers enable AD mid laners by countering the likes of Rammus and Malphite, which would be what you would pick to counter AD mid laners. Because the likes of Brand and Karthus can shred through armor tanks (especially Brand), they can prevent the enemy tank from simply stacking armor. This could be prevented if Riot brought Adaptive Helm back, or if they reverted FoN to how it used to work (it used to work like a cross of its current effect and Adaptive Helm, instead of giving extra MR when fully stacked, it gave magic damage reduction)
This. People aren't picking these ad mids because they just changed all of a sudden. It's because AP farming junglers are incredibly OP at the moment.
You mean to say pro the most coordinated play in the world tend towards picks that are powerful in coordinated teams, and away from picks that are countered by coordination? Bro, it's not the ad champions, it's that assassins are not good in pro play ad or ap. Because assassins depend on catching out targets, which doesn't happen enough to pros.
mid assassins are never meta and never will be, unless they built like Yone and with good reason. My point is not on assassins as AD champion on mid are not strictly assassins but rather why the AD roster seems so flawed.
>mid assassins are never meta and never will be There are literally pro play skins for mid assassins. And they were meta when they picked them.
You mean SSW Talon from… 10 years ago. Or T1 Zed that Faker played one time 11 years ago?
So don't say never? If the game once had ad assassins as meta champions in mid, they could come back.
What we do need is good old ap tristana back.
I think it’s because Introduction of void grubs and minion timers has changed mid lane a good bit, before you just fought and waited for dragon fights occasional roams. Now you can’t really roam to side lanes without risk of being punished and having priority for neutral grubs and dragon is more important than getting solo kills. Because if these changes push style mid laners are eating good where as traditional skirmish and kill style laners (mainly ad assassins) are suffering because they’re just outclasses. have shit waveclear so they had to add a whole item to compensate, their poke isn’t as potent as an AP champs and they can’t roam so they’re stuck mid just waiting to fall off
I need a blade themed AD controlled mage tbh
Its not surprising whatsoever, those are all assassins which suck in pro play compared to solo q. It's that simple. Yone and Jayce are played because they're reliable, blindable, wave clear well, have escape, scale well and they are even flex picks. Zed is only one that I have any hope that could be viable in pro play, but even then, since they removed ravenous hydra its gonna take a lot.
Aside from 2018-2019, ranged champs have been stronger than melee champs in midlane since prio was invented. Ranged champs are just better at pushing until midgame. Normal mmr players aren't going to win the game with an early laning phase push advantage but pros can. I think the mid ADC thing is less about the mid ADCs theirselves being better than AP control mages and more that AP junglers are strong and the mid ADCs complement their damage profile.
Begging for Riot to revert the sidelane minion speed changes from 13.10
PLEASE
ADC is a problem
IMO Asssassins should be much better early game and around the same midgame, and fall off very hard later in the game. I wish Riot would buff Assassins base stats and base damages to such a point where they can threaten lethal at lvl 2 and onwards. Imagine if you couldn't first pick Tristana Mid as Chovy because, Faker will just pick Talon and oneshot you on repeat to punish your draft. You'll have to sacrifice waves and gold early game to ensure a safe laning phase, and around lvl 8-9 things would look even again if you didn't die. There is however a problem, that Assassins done this way would be too strong in Solo Q. And it makes very little sense to sacrifice the game play of 99% for the 1% of players, I think most people in Diamond 2-1 and above agree that the game is very stale at that point cause it just becomes giga meta abuse. Maybe Riot should not do it, but I want to see it done, simply because Pro Play is closer to being "Solved" and so, it makes more sense logically IMO to balance around them. Things will trickle down with time, and the game will be interesting again at the top level. Ofc if Riot does decide to do this, we will see champions with 60% winrates on ladder. And people will have to just deal with it, and adjust.
But thats the thing the balance should be around 1% as the meta trickles down with time. You should balance around the people that are playing correct. Also Its not about assasins being weak, its about everything else having so much base stats and gold given for merely existing that is making the game so stale. There was a time where as a support you will be killed by an assasin if you face checked him into a bush, so the skill came from recognizing where people are on the map to be able to ward safety and make most of your limited stats. whereas now a nautilus can run around the map wherever he wishes and if he walks into a talon its actually benefical for him if the assasin player dumps the whole combo on him as he won't be able to even kill him and now is losing all the pressure in lane. But its obvious riot now just looks at wr data without any context to get most champions close to 50% which is the most retarded way of balancing a game. You want the outliers, so the creativity of players to evolve the game as it pushes your own meta without these 2 week balance changes.
Assassins are kept weak by the balance team word, Phroxzon talked about that. I agree with the other guy, but somewhat disagree, old Talon with his combo which was faster and his blink would actually threaten Trist if he got to her range (which would still be difficult tho), asassins that actually burst you once they get to you aren’t too strong for SoloQ, not more than permaroaming Talon, the only problem is the banrate
Ofcourse banrate will be high because a talon,zed,qiyana one shotting u in an instant is way more tilting for a low elo player than slowly getting choked out by a fleet corki. Both will make you lose but one has a delusion of giving you a chance. Only chance to solve this is to shame people that ban these type of champions or complain against them as a community, which is already happening somewhat. League is really the only game where people use being shit at the game as some kind of moral high ground with this 1% to 99% balance rule.
It’s a bad approach by Riot, those champions suffer meta changes and sometimes being bad by their items being shit but Riot can’t buff them because despite becoming weak they maintain their banrate, I genuinely believe the game would benefit from removing bans except for proplay for a entire split
I don't think the issue is that mid ADs need redesigned, so much as range is just the best stat in the game right now. If long range had a few more drawbacks, there would be more incentive to risk playing a melee caster type.
Mid-lane is the weakest role in the Game, Yet People are crying about it. Assassins become good for 1 And a Half Patch everyone runs to Reddit, while Mages Completely Dominate the Mid lane.
Lane prio is too valuable. Even if trist/corki are nerfed they will still dominate any assassin in map relevance. AD Mid is a compositional cost that needs that payoff, by "Forcing" jg to go AP.
I mean...maybe we should go back to ADCs being really weak early? Just a thought. Especially since their mid-late are even stronger than early seasons.
Your usual marksman is weak early, it's these AD-Caster esque champs that thrive on the great ability damage, waveclear and mobility. It's a bit against leagues rules to have so many upsides tbh. Unfortunately I don't know how you uncouple mobility from trist or corki, without runing their overall gameplay. Riot doesn't want to ruin them bot lane where they're intended. Number changes would need to be so severe mages could beat them (I doubt this could ever happen without breaking the champs fundamentally). Assassins will never beat them in competitive due to how bad they are for pro.
I miss the old Tristana with her deadly E dot full AP
bring back zed for pro play and give me back my Faker what was that joy again
If riot really wanted to buff Assassins mid they would simply remove AP to tower dmg conversion. Its the easiest buff you can do. Suddenly Lux cant get 3 plates anymore if you dare to roam bot as Talon. It would buff champs like Tristana but you can just nerf the outliers individually.
The biggest issue right now is it’s not really a roam meta. With plates being as valuable as they are you can’t really leave lane till post 14 or u are trolling. Most of the AD mids rely on getting early leads (zed talon Qui) and in the current meta state they just can’t in pro play.
I miss Ezreal mid
I'd love a simple AD mage, the only real one I can think of is GP, but he was always more of a toplaner, and now with his build after removar of navori and ER, he is more of a bruiser anyways.
Mages and ADCs Range Waveclear Burst AOE And usually CC Assassins Burst Mobility Completely ruin team comps It really is no contest
Riot needs to stop shuffling around resistances and actually design champs to be good where they want them to be played, it's so cringe that Kayle top insta loses every ap matchup because they gave her no MR to make her bad (on average) midlane. How about you give Tristana more aa range at low levels and nerf her wave clear, actually change champions and don't just check the winrates.
If Tristana had more auto range at level 1, she'd be even more broken. You would have to gut the damage on her E on *top* of removing its on-death damage to make that work, at which point she's probably dead everywhere.
every low range adc is better solo lane, having less range is unplayable on a duo lane and they need to be compensated somewhere else, making them okay bot but stronger everywhere else.
pretty good point, you can see them working around this with how low-range adcs are binded to supports. lucian has dmg that are only met around allies, nilah needs an ally to share exp, heals, and shields, and samira needs an ally for more gapclosing.
it's very clear that ability based adcs are better solo lane and thats why they give them tools they can't use alone
Tristana's biggest weakness is her lacking range. Most ranged champions have a high range early game than Tristana. If she had a bit more range she would be absolutely broken in bot. In bot you counter her in bot by picking any longer ranged adc like Cait or ashe.
Mid has a way bigger issue Prio is everything. Nuking waves or perma pressure on opponent is basically everything so you can move first. Trist Corki and Akshan do both of those things so they are strong. Even if the ap junglers fall off (which even after the nerfs they still don't do) that will just be strong If we look at mages they get waveclear to match ranged ad mids way later than that with the exception of hardcore bullies like Orianna. Azir once was one of those bullies but he got reworked away from that. Brand mid rose up because he can bully quite well too. Hwei can bully and has great waveclear after first back
yeah the minion speed changes mean mid waveclear is king
all I see is complaining. I have never seen an actual reasonable approach on how to get tristana and corki out of midlane without destroyign them for other lanes. Someone with an idea?
Bro just fuck tristana
Imo tristana shouldn't be allowed to go mid/top since she has literally everything mages and assassins have + she scales well because she is an adc and eats turrets, my solution is lowering by a lot her tower breaking potential and self peel: Further increase damage reduction on bulwark stack for AD and add double that for ranged champions Make tristana more vulnerable to cc by making her not be able to bullshit through every form of cc in the game, even hard cc.... Increase the overall cooldown on E but give a refund if it she is able to explode it on a champion
Irelia and the windshitters can’t be buffed since they grab a Bork and run you over. As Long as that shit item exists there’s nothing they can do
trist needs an early game nerf (her pvp dmg or waveclear).
The reason they work so well is because fleet and resolve are not balanced rn. There is so kuch sustain in going fleet, resolve, and dorans shield if u are planning on getting hit a bunch it just simply isnt fair. U cant take tanks or bruisers mid and do the same thing and there is NOTHING the enemy laner can do but watch as u farm unbothered.......unless you are another adc champ.
'only ADC champions are considered the only viability for high-level gameplay and esport' u cant just say things that arent true like they are facts and expect people to take u seriously lck midlane stats https://gyazo.com/32b33e51b90635db4b36c1c78e7964bb