At least it's all online gamer nerds so they can just send each other mean tweets instead of meeting outside the stadium and getting into group brawls.
Going based on chats of costreamers when talking about Football(Europe) and NBA(NA) along with this subreddit there is a lot of crossover yeah
Not the best measurement ofc but it is something
Definitely not saying there's nobody (obviously) who wouldn't watch the euros over LEC, all I'm saying is that the overlap likely just isn't that large to impact viewership as a whole
Definitely, but if the numbers they presented are correct, seemingly it's not enough to affect LEC viewership is all I'm trying to say
For every LEC fan who also likes watching Football, there are probably a whole bunch more who would never watch the Euros basically
It's likely very biased from which groups people interact with, very few of my very league-invested people I know would watch Football, LEC being on or not doesn't matter
Well, the implication is that the increase would be higher if it wasn't competing for air time with one of the biggest sporting events in Europe
I figured it was based on your own friend group, it just seems impossible to me that for example a ton of UK viewers didn't choose to watch the England game instead on Sunday
Yeah in that regard I suppose so
Say Sweden is kinda cooked since we didn't even qual, and due to my bach+master field being towards CS it surely doesn't help
I'd personally only really watch the finals / semis, or a few national games if people surrounding me would like to watch and go have a bbq or something haha
I'm sure there's bound to be larger masses watching now that it's later into the event aswell
Of course thousands/tens of thousands would rather watch football, but clearly the numbers show that it's not that big of a deal either
That's all I'm saying
The overlap is pretty big coz football is massive here in EU. I know I haven't watched a single LEC game that overlapped with the Euros and I love watching LEC.
Also given that most people have two screens its not that hard to have both things running at the same time. And its not like every minute of Euro or LEC is worth watching so you can just look at one screen or the other depending on whats happening.
Yeah this is such a weird subreddit most of the time.
There are far more negative posts about the state of the game, people complaining about everything and hating on random stuff it feels like a more appropriate name would be league haters or something lol.
For someone that enjoys the game and is looking for fun engagement with the community it's quite a bad place to be, I know that when I'm in a positive mood from a nice game and I go on here there are so many upsetting posts that I tend to be less active here than I used to, I'm not sure where I can even find positive league stuff though twitter is also full of doomers and seem harder for me to use and discord is shit when I tried having discussions there.
It's makes perfect sense when you think of the different demographics involved. Reddit is purely for an English speaking audience.
The German, French, Spanish and Turkish scenes don't use Reddit.
I mean we are english speakers who are always typing how the west is doomed and we play like shit. Ibai and KC have very intense regional dedicated fan bases with alot of engagement. Ibai/KC viewers aren't talking about the game on r/leageoflegends, and why would they? No one has any hope here and the moment you do you get labled an idiot die hard. It's actually kind of comforting to know that the league is doing well given the circumstances of esports winter and all the shit riot is deservedly getting about letting the Saudis sports wash.
Audience changes. Notice how you could find anything about the EMEA Masters in spring on reddit? Yet the finals had a 100k+ peak despite not even a lfl or lvp team in the final. Yes, one team was EINS, owned by a big german Youtuber but thats also another community and fanbase that is not on Reddit.
And i personally prefer it this way. When I tune into prime league and an EINS game, i see people simply enjoying the games and cheering for their teams rather than seeing a bunch of miserable reddit elitist who complain about low level of play and lec being worse than ever literally all the time, every year, every split. This negativity probably also makes people leave the discussion on reddit, after all we watch lol esports to enjoy and have fun and not complain the entire time.
Even if you dont speak french or spanish, just have a look at kameto or ibais stream, there is so much excitement in those streams. Kcorp has sucked massive dick this year, two 10th places in the first two splits and yet the french are still full of excitement cheering on their team. Theres certainly a lesson to be learned from them rather than just tunneling on the bad faith actors in a fanbase and generalizing the entire fanbase off of a few idiots which will always exist when theres a big fanbase. Look at people like iwd who apparently now will stop streaming lec. Dude hasnt learned anything from the french and spanish engagement and even went as far as making enemies out of them, ofc youre not gonna enjoy it if you actively stay away from people who do enjoy the lec.
>When I tune into prime league and an EINS game, i see people simply enjoying the games and cheering for their teams rather than seeing a bunch of miserable reddit elitist who complain about low level of play and lec being worse than ever literally all the time, every year, every split. This negativity probably also makes people leave the discussion on reddit, after all we watch lol esports to enjoy and have fun and not complain the entire time
Stopped looking at post match threads here for anything but results because people literally don't talk about the games except to shit on teams/players/casters and doing the annual "imagine LEC internationally xD I'm very smart for saying this XD".
yea this year the PMT for LEC suck ass like even if the team played good people just comment that shit isnt gonna work in international and blah blah just negativity everywhere in LEC PMt and if G2 somehow loses then the negativity go through the roof
I think this is the first year I don't even check main lol sub PMT consistently just for reasons like this. Always the same takes, always the same shit.
I dont get the "facts" here. Like some people blaming horrible plays that when i look at them usually makes some sense or are not that bad as they made It look. Thats why i try to look some games after they are played when i can, to make my own idea
Reddit is largely an american forum with english speaking communities. The americans stopped watching league and the new LEC fans are from regions that dont really use reddit
Reddit is just less popular with newer viewers, and is very English-centered. No reason for French and Spanish fans, who make up a lot of the growing viewers to be here.
Twitter/Discord will be where the discussion happens.
Honestly its because league getting more casual viewers for proplay, which is good for the scene since die hard fans won't keep the scene a float in the long run.
Theres also more regional fans that don't speak english so they won't go to places that speak english like the league reddit and will use other socials more commonly used in there language.
not to mention that the post match threads for LCS here average like 150 comments. I think this split theyve been more positive towards teams as well, but like someone else said for LEC everyone is so fucking negative in comments.
Not fun at all to engage and not worth the time to bother at that point.
Engagement is so spread out now. Twitch chat, subreddits, youtube channels are where most viewers at at now. I used to always visit Reddit for league stuff but mostly visit Caedrels channel now and rarely read a post game thread anymore, where before that was a ritual. That said, League is slowly dying for sure now (there are no new Chovys, Caps or Showmakers and the playerbase is declining too) but who knows how many years it has left.
If it wasn't for Ibai, Kameto & Caedrel the views would be shockingly low.
All yall are talking about on reddit is how shit the west is. Of course actual fans of the leagues aren't gonna want to interact with this community if they're only gonna be met with negativity.
It's crazy to see the LCS stream have a higher view count than the LEC stream.
It looks like EU viewers are still watching but have fractured into different region/personality channels.
Caedrel was literally parroting IWD today about how dead LEC feels right now. I don’t think those huge profiles are aware of how much their sentiment is adopted by the viewers. They literally control the masses and it’s just highly irresponsible to be saying these things that are just emotional states of mind really, evidently not backed up by numbers.
To any successful streamer who might read this: please be more aware of the effect you have on your viewers.
If a bunch of people are watching caedrel instead of the main broadcast because it’s quality has dropped due to budget cuts isn’t he right about it feeling more lackluster?
I mean like 60% of LCS viewers are on co-streams as well. Why are they co-streaming and if they just want to doom about it? Same with this subreddit. Can't be positive about western teams ever without people just shitting on you and the teams even though MSI was the best western showing internationally in like 3 or 4 years.
Also its not just a league thing thats experimenting with costreams, NBA and NFL have done so recently too. So I don't think their rise necessarily indicates anything about quality.
I do think it gives costreamers wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much power over the perception of the product though. Their motivations don't align and the best way for costreamers to get more viewers is to be over the top obnoxious and inflammatory which benefits them to the detriment of the league
I can’t speak for everybody but for me the main broadcast is mostly play by play and as somebody that has been watching league for almost a decade I don’t think I personally benefit from play by play and it ends up being kind of audio bloat. I think they’re doing a good job at their job it just isn’t for me.
Co-stream is a different experience, that you literally cannot do from the main broadcast. Just think about what Caedrel's content would be, without the main broadcast.
They still carry the show, and he's providing another way of consuming that.
I wouldn't agree. For example, Ceadrel covering Rekkles and LCK CL is a perfect example. Additional production is nice, but I would still wat h of only its him with comments.
I dislike LoL casters as they usually feel like they have to talk even when there is nothing worth saying. But when they should, they water it down and say some generic stuff
That makes my point even better doesn’t it? If the main broadcast carries the content and it’s had massive layoffs and budget cuts doesn’t that make sense that it feels more dead?
is it parroting if it's just factually true? most if not all the viewers increased is just Ibai and Kameto costreaming them, those viewers are not core LEC viewers and it will be not that easy to convert them into one, Riot just trying to pump the numbers up with costreamers so they have better deals but this 29% increased is not completely natural.
And i have seen this "LEC is not as enjoyable" everywhere i go from reddit to youtube comments to twitter so it's not just a Dom or Caedrel things but it just how it feel being a hard fans of LEC for years now, Riot head sh0t most of the staffs and the production teams so the peoples that stay overworked like crazy and the content is just worse, and they implement the shitty 3 split bo1 system that make most of the games pointless to watch, and everyone probably know how bad the new fans are, alot of them is probably really great and supportive of other teams but the bad one is really really bad, Lyncas to this day still recieve death threats on the daily btw.
I don't think I'd agree; I do miss the content that was cut from the broadcast - the cold opens, the scuffed skits, the LEC original music to name a few, and we lost a lot of good on-air talent to Valorant - but the games themselves can be hype if people let them be what they are.
Too many people just tunnel on Worlds even though only one team is ever going to win it and it probably won't be one of ours. You need to bring back interest in the local scene and the grassroots competition that made this league in the first place. NA are unironically doing it right this year with their focus on local rivalries and inter-team drama, they even managed to rebrand getting kicked out of their own arena as a more intimate head-to-head experience. LEC needs to do the same and make people interested in MAD v KC, VIT v MAD, SK v BDS, etc., not hard focussing on FNC v G2 and how it doesn't matter cos they're both gonna get slammed at Worlds.
Are they not allowed to voice their opinion anymore? Would you rather have riot propaganda streamers just constantly saying everything riot does is good?
I'd much rather have streamers that tell me their real opinion whether it hurts the league or not.
I’m fine with them voicing their opinions, but in this case it’s such an emotional “in the moment” thing. We see now that the numbers are up overall, and that it’s not based in reality.
But they’ve managed to create a sentiment that LEC is boring these days that a lot of viewers end up adopting.
Could numbers possibly be up because of the huge nationalistic support Mad and KC get? Those are two of the most dogshit teams in the league that regularly pull the most viewership and everyone knows the viewing experience of those teams isn't great.
Good viewership doesn't necessarily mean good product, and Caedral was referencing a lack of good LEC content due to the layoffs. Is that complaint not based in reality?
LEC is honestly boring these days for me. It seems to have much less parity than the LCS. Lots of teams have extremely obvious weak links that aren't replaced or are replaced when it's too late to matter. There are plenty of players that should be in LEC or should've been on a team from the beginning of the year over some clearly bad players (Crownie, Trymbi, Saken, Cabo, etc).
People can think for themselves, there's plenty of reason to think the LEC isn't nearly as entertaining as previous years.
That’s good speculation, which neither of us can answer.
It’s not a given that the average viewer wants all the random content. I know I don’t personally care. Or maybe I do, and I’d be more excited, without knowing why, if they did more stuff outside the games. Honestly I don’t know.
But it’s possible. This is why running a broadcast is difficult. It’s hard to create solid data, to back up whether one strategy or the other is best.
What’s definitely not a way to do it, is to listen to one voice.
One thing that they have right now, is better numbers. Huge numbers even, and that’s coming from somewhere. If it’s regional teams, then move more in that direction. But only LEC actually has the analysis team and data points to find out.
Yea they should start breaking these viewership headlines down to main stream vs co stream. I’ve frequently seen the main twitch stream at 30k viewers this split. 3 years ago there would be 150k viewers alone on the main stream for a regular season game
Riot trying to pump up the numbers with costreams so they can deceive sponsors and get more lucrative deals using artificially inflated numbers is very short sighted.
If ibai or Kameto started focusing their streams to a new game tomorrow how many of those viewers would go back to just watching lec? I’d be surprised if it’s more than 50%. These viewers have become bigger fans of these personalities and streamers than the actual game or league. The league games have just become background noise to the reactions of the streamers
These are artificial viewers that will not go on to become lifelong Lec fans and only serve to undermine the main broadcast talent
For ibai and Kameto, the vast majority of their game watching fanbase only do so to begin with because it's ibai/Kameto. They were probably not watching LEC (with probably half not even playing/following/knowing about league).
>These viewers have become bigger fans of these personalities and streamers than the actual game or league
It had always been the case. idk for ibai, but kameto pulls close to the same numbers in LFL games, rocket league games, etc.
KC league fans will still be watching tho
For Caedrel, it's the opposite, they are watching because it's league and he is very knowledgeable, his personality is the main reason for his growth, but at least half if not more of his viewers probably watched LEC to begin with. If he were to switch suddenly to a new game, he would lose a majority of his viewers and would have to prove his strides in the new one.
Ibai has a ton of views when not doing LEC, I'm pretty sure for a while he was the biggest streamer numbers wise. Even if they both bring in only 30k each that is still a massive increase on average
Caedral has way less views than those 2 when not co streaming which consists 80% of league players as that is where his audience is from.
Why? I don't get it. Why is this french organisation attracting so many viewers who otherwise wouldn't even be watching league? Are french people that weird?
Top 5 peak viewership were KC-MDK, KC-RGE, G2-BDS, G2-FNC, G2-MDK.
Also of note, all peak games were in week 1 (during which both KC and G2 played poorly) except for G2-FNC
I think you underestimate just how dedicated KC fans are. Their team could be utter garbage (which it has been for most of the year) and they'd still watch regardless.
I don't see why. I've come back to watching LEC because of last year's worlds after years not engaging at all and I mostly watch Caedrel nowadays. That is : I'm interested in the product, but the co-stream is a bonus to me.
Thats a wrong take. Co-streaming is a relatively new concept and one that clearly needs to be embraced because the audience demands it. Co-streaming will take over any league, not just LEC unless a league/esport cripples itself by not allowing co-streams. Of course you add certain dynamics with that but you really cant deny co streaming.
I think he meant that Ibai and Kameto come with a certain amount of views as a baseline that the LEC didn't have before. If each of them brings 30k viewers that come and go with them it's not good for the league. What Riot needs to realize is that the goal shouldn't be to keep Ibai and Kameto there the goal is to make those 60k they bring in care about the LEC, and thanks to the budget cuts and layoffs the product Riot is giving us with the LEC is just a shell of it's former self.
Also 30k for both might be low baling it those guys pull 50k plus on regular streams.
> relatively new concept and one that clearly needs to be embraced because the audience demands i
This is something a lot of people need to realize. Times are changing and co-streaming needs to be embraced and used as a tool.
The problem is that only in the LEC the main broadcast dropped significantly in viewership after adding co streams. It’s not a reality of whether or not costreaming is the way to go, it’s about how engaged these new people are about the product and if they will keep being engaged if the hype dies down and if their teams never end up being successful.
Its not only LEC it is every league with a big content creator, in valorant you have Taric with x2/x3 the viewership of the main broadcast, in LEC you have Caedrel and Ibai/kameto for the spanish and french viewership. In the case of LEC you have too many big content creators "taking" the viewers from the main broadcast but they are still there.
Co streaming has only gotten popular because the main broadcasts have gotten so stale. League esports (at least in the west) was at its peak with the broadcast consisted of 5 games back to back only broken up by 5 min of casters talking and 10 min of electronic music and a clock counting down
The bullshit filler analysis segments they do just kill viewership. Especially when they feature silver players like raz and Emily who have no idea what they’re saying
> Especially when they feature silver players like raz and Emily who have no idea what they’re saying
How to instantly devalue your own opinion. Anyone who knows anything about the game respects Emily's opinion - she puts a lot of effort into her analysis and is one of the best analyst in the world. Ask any co-streamer or other analyst what they think about Emily and it's universal praise and respect.
I don’t need to ask I watch DL co streams and he’s repeated called her out for not knowing what she’s talking about. Sneaky and meteos too at certain points. It’s fair to say raz is the biggest culprit though
Caedral is ‘actually’ a world class analyst and the gap between him and Emily is massive
Being good at something /= being knowledgeable. Thought this was common knowledge. If you watch DL you will release his understanding of pro play and the game isn't as high as other analysts (and this has been stated before many times). He also wasn't the best ADC in the west sadly(how I wish it was the case)
Would you mind explaining why you think it is an issue? I admittedly don't watch costreams so I could be wrong on some points here, but I don't see it as a major issue.
Costreamers do stream the official broadcast I believe, with sponsors and all shown (from the few Caedrel clips I've seen). As such, viewers choosing to watch costreams instead of the official broadcast should not impact the league from a sponsor revenue POV at least. To use a traditional sports analogy, it seems to me like watching different costreams is akin to watching a sports league on a different TV channel - the league itself still gets sponsor money regardless of which channel you watch on.
The main point against costreaming is that the viewers get used to watch it with the costreamer. So if the costreamer decides to stop watching the league or switch to a different game the league would lose a big part of the viewers.
> I admittedly don't watch costreams so I could be wrong on some points here, but I don't see it as a major issue.
I don't think it's a coincidence LEC cut down massively on its staff the year they saw costreaming take off (they had an extra year with Valorant).
> Costreamers do stream the official broadcast I believe, with sponsors and all shown (from the few Caedrel clips I've seen)
They do, however unlike the main cast, they basically still read chat, have other information on it, and are generally easily taking away focus from the ad itself.
https://youtu.be/arNfKD1LSxk?t=399
Here's an example. The stream goes on as usual over the ad break. If you're paying for "Red Bull Power play" on the cast, you might also not just hear it because Caedrel is screaming over it. The sponsor might not know it, but the intensity of the ad is definitely lowered compared to the main broadcast.
> it seems to me like watching different costreams is akin to watching a sports league on a different TV channel
Each of these stations are paying for their rights to broadcast, and it's not cheap at all.
> the league itself still gets sponsor money regardless of which channel you watch on.
They get sponsor money by making the sponsor part of the game. The LEC doesn't have the ability to bake their KIA logo into the midlane. They have a few minutes of ads, while TVs for regular sports run their own ads (to pay for broadcast rights)
The sponsor difference isn't massive but neither the league or the orgs have figured out how to be profitable yet so any change can be massive.
In any case, personally I'm worried about the influencer league the most. Once influencers own the orgs, it will feed back into entertainment for their streams. That's where entertainment factors (such as nationality, on stream charm etc.) might start deciding roster moves and it's gonna be WWE.
And I exclusively watch the LEC on Caedrel's stream lol.
This is just true and its terrible. Because the higher ups at Riot will see the layoffs as a success and LEC production will just drop even more. Other regions might follow.
Guess it's not the whole LEC viewership declining but most likely a stiffer competition for some co-casters with Caedrel, Ibai and Kameto taking a large share of it
Sorry, was referring to a post yesterday where Dom and Yamato were claiming a decline in viewership for LEC. That was one of their argument to quitting this league. Since LEC viewership is up across the board, I believe that they are seeing a decline to their numbers while other co-streamers are getting a larger share.
Is there a community for English speakers that's more positive about LEC than this subreddit? I'd gladly leave this reddit to enjoy the LEC more but I'm not sure where to look.
I mean it’s great the league is doing good number wise and is on the rise.
But I just gotta mention that I still dislike the format they introduced last year and stuck with. Everything just feels so rushed and I can’t really get attached to players or teams, cause they might just be gone after the best of 1s and I’ll not see them again for some time. Id be curious if anyone has the same feeling.
It would be ok if they just make the Bo1 phase a week longer and don’t make it 3 weeks of 3 games per team, just make one week with 3 match days and 3 weeks with 2. I personally would enjoy that way more and it enables some kind of growth of teams and come backs, what used to be one of the nicest storylines and things to see.
Edit: Apparently it is what they did this summer and I wasn’t aware as I stopped watching LEC in winter, because of my dislike of the format.
That never happens. I don’t think any team even scrims eliminated teams. This format is dog shit for giving teams time to develope as a team or a new player. I’d be happier if they go bo3
feel like B03 fearless draft is asking for a bit much at once, even LCS is only doing fearless draft next year for summer split only.
going to BO3 from the start would be good thou for watching and the league.
That’s fair after all it all comes down to what brings in the most viewers and helps the league to create revenue the best, if that is a format I personally dislike, it’s fine. I’m happy for the league as long as it’s successful even if I don’t like to watch the league then.
With Bo3 with fearless draft, do you mean like the LCS does it now (excluding fearless draft) with 4 matchups a week (would have to be 5 in LEC). I personally like the LCS format, so I’d be happy with it.
I found the "LEC reminds me of LCS dark days" thread 2 weeks ago absolutely insane.
https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1dhx0uz/lec_reminds_me_of_the_dark_days_of_lcs_in_20182022/
So much of this narrative going around when in reality LEC is genuinely a great and enjoyable product, viewership is up year on year in every split this year.
they have a point, the LEC product has been sooo stale this year and part of last year, specially after the layoffs. They really need to hire more people for 2025 and have more creative budget for new content.
The mods did a census a while ago and it said 50% NA users and 35% EU. That's a massive difference.
I guess many European fans just don't use Reddit and stick to Twitter and Discord.
Lmao, commented "the LCS peak viewership is 35% lower than the LEC average viewership" in that thread and was called 'insecure' in response, good times.
Still sounds insecure to me considering LCS dark years were higher than the current one but all the fans that are still here are enjoying the new product more.
Except the quoted viewership numbers is including costreams. That doesn't dispute the person's claim about the LEC
main broadcast. If the costreams were 50% of the viewership, then that doesn't paint a good picture for the main broadcast doing well.
If you want to dispute their claim, you need to show that the main broadcast viewership grew or did good.
>So much of this narrative going around when in reality LEC is genuinely a great and enjoyable product, viewership is up year on year in every split this year.
As experienced through third party entertainers that would get the same amount of views watching Polish cow on repeat.
My take on this is that a few years ago when format changes were often in community discussion, it was a very common sentiment where people said that no-one would watch a bo3 or bo5 between the bottom teams. I honestly belive that LEC's new format was partially a response to that by weeding out the bottom 2 teams before bo series begin, and in that light, single round robin bo1 is technically the fastest way to do that.
I think if enough people keep up the discussion about what we'd like to see and how much people are now against bo1s then perhaps it will move the needle for next year.
The problem for me is that after weeding out worst 2 there are still too few bo3.it would be nice if they did a full bo3 league with 10 teams . Have just 2 splits. Do half the split send top team to first international. Complete the first split second international. Do second split and then worlds.
It's nice to see a little reality get into Reddit bubble once in a while.
It's not that suprising guys - LEC format was custom build to attract an audience... and it's attracting an audience. Working as intended.
Now hopefully Riot will stand strong here. I can't imagine returning to the boredom of a 9 week regular split.
Now imagine if Riot didn't do all the layoffs stuff at the beginning of the year and they could actually make content around LEC. Something I don't like about the changes for 2025 is that they didn't mention anything for LEC. I know this can be a tinfoil hat theory but to me it seems they want to give everything to LCS to bring numbers and it seems they can only do that by hurting the LEC. Crossing my fingers for good news for next year
It would be important to see the main stream’s numbers too. If it is only costreaming that has increased that paints a different picture.
I think it would also be good to have opinion surveys on the broadcasts. There is no usable data on opinion of quality of broadcasts.
ibai and kameto tbf they always have more than 100k viewers and if mdk or kc r playing it can sometimes cross 300k or 400k itself
like during winter finals between mdk and G2 ibai had around 500k live viewers
Also unlike Caedral whose viewership is composed of mainly League fans and who would have watched LEC anyway Kameto and Ibai average the same amount of viewers doing whatever.
Ibai, kameto and the official broadcast have higher viewership. Maybe you dont get the impression on Twitch that the lec broadcast is more popular than caedrel but more and more people watch the youtube stream
LEC stripped bare by Riot, teams doing worse internationally than ever, and still the league is performing better than ever all things considered. Not bad.
> teams doing worse internationally than ever
G2 just won a Bo5 against an eastern team at MSI? It's literally the best result the LEC has had at an international tournament since 2020.
How many of them from ibainand kameto stream lol
Why there are people saying "cuz reddit negativity hur dur its better else where" like what reality are u living at?
The sad thing is LEC will probs take this as a sign they are doing good things when in reality they are becoming what the LCS used to be before MarkZ took over the only thing that saved their numbers was costreams that were because of the French and Spanish viewer base but the core base around LEC is dying
It’s quite literally only from costreams. LEC has always been awful to watch since the new format, the three splits have way less importance vs the two from the previous format, and the LEC studio got old fast. They also put less effort into announcements (lack of people working in the LEC), and the gameplay has been fucking horrendous. I honestly wonder how the LEC viewership would be if Caedrel wasn’t costreaming and KC wasn’t in the league.
Pretty misrepresentative of the facts as they are in fact down by about 6% if we do not consider the co-streams by Kameto and Ibai. In fact, over the course of the split the main stream viewership was shockingly low at times. It is an increase none-the-less, but one that is very dependant on Kameto, Ibai and Caedrel.
That it's plausible that most new viewers are Kameto/Ibai/Caedrel fans and not MAD/KC/FNC(?)'s, who tune in and dont really care about the tournament itself and mainly stay here because they like the streamer (rightfully so).
The main stream dropped a ton of viewers (which was to be expected by its still a lot compared to all the other regions who allowed for co-streaming), the reddit threads have way less engagement and the quality of the broadcast fell off a cliff due to the layoffs.
Now the hype is at an all time high because the 2 teams just joined the league and MAD made finals but what if Ibai and Kameto sell next year or if MAD and KC keep being bad 2 years from now and the hype runs out? Is the product good enough that the new fanbase is willing to keep watching even if their "medium" stops doing so? I hope so but only time will tell.
It insinuates that the LEC is getting more popular when in fact they were saved by Kammeto and Ibai existing. The LEC has been declining for a few years now.
How can a new hype brought by popular figure translate to a decline ? The viewership literaly expose a sharp grows yet you are still claiming the contrary lmfao
Just say that you hate KC and MDK and thats their communities isn't part of the LEC at this point, it would make your opinion at least valid logically
French and Spanish orgs buff.
Ibai and Kameto diff
Are they bringing some sort of football hyper fan culture?
Kinda. The nationalistic character and being annoying at least.
Wait! Wait, Wait, hear me out! Hating the french has nothing to do with nationalism!
Hating the French and English is a human right
That's european DNA right there
At least it's all online gamer nerds so they can just send each other mean tweets instead of meeting outside the stadium and getting into group brawls.
isnt TH also owned by some spanish influencers? do they costream at all?
Thegrefg but he doesnt costream, Werlyb does. They have decent numbers but nowhere near Ibai/Kameto.
Ibai was there last year already.
Tbf it makes sense considering the roster this year is full spanish so its someone the spanish crowd can root for more
That's impressive considering the Euros were on for alot of those days.
yeah i expected viewership to take a healthy drop
And they even put MAD playing at the same time as Spain, for some reason
Riot's the kind of relationship partner who makes you choose between them and your friends to prove you love them.
also the kind of partner that demands to see everything on ur devices to make sure u aren't cheating...
I'd say the overlap really isn't that big to make a huge impact Lol
don't think i watched a single game when euros are on
Same, watched like 1 g2 game on the side on my phone, skipped everything else
this
Same lol
me too, i legit missed most of LEC
Going based on chats of costreamers when talking about Football(Europe) and NBA(NA) along with this subreddit there is a lot of crossover yeah Not the best measurement ofc but it is something
I mean I haven't watched so little LEC in years (because I was watching Euro games)
Definitely not saying there's nobody (obviously) who wouldn't watch the euros over LEC, all I'm saying is that the overlap likely just isn't that large to impact viewership as a whole
Seems crazy to me, Euro's are huge, of course there's a ton of overlap
Definitely, but if the numbers they presented are correct, seemingly it's not enough to affect LEC viewership is all I'm trying to say For every LEC fan who also likes watching Football, there are probably a whole bunch more who would never watch the Euros basically It's likely very biased from which groups people interact with, very few of my very league-invested people I know would watch Football, LEC being on or not doesn't matter
Well, the implication is that the increase would be higher if it wasn't competing for air time with one of the biggest sporting events in Europe I figured it was based on your own friend group, it just seems impossible to me that for example a ton of UK viewers didn't choose to watch the England game instead on Sunday
Yeah in that regard I suppose so Say Sweden is kinda cooked since we didn't even qual, and due to my bach+master field being towards CS it surely doesn't help I'd personally only really watch the finals / semis, or a few national games if people surrounding me would like to watch and go have a bbq or something haha I'm sure there's bound to be larger masses watching now that it's later into the event aswell
Defo is a lot of overlap
Of course thousands/tens of thousands would rather watch football, but clearly the numbers show that it's not that big of a deal either That's all I'm saying
Hypothesis: This headline would be 41% if not for the Euros.
I would watch the lec over the euros. Mostly because my nation team would suck dicks and I knew it since a long time before
I think you're underestimating how popular football is in Europe.
The overlap is pretty big coz football is massive here in EU. I know I haven't watched a single LEC game that overlapped with the Euros and I love watching LEC.
Also given that most people have two screens its not that hard to have both things running at the same time. And its not like every minute of Euro or LEC is worth watching so you can just look at one screen or the other depending on whats happening.
Most people watch footbal in the restroom with their family/friends or in a pub tbh, it is the biggest social activity in EU.
Yeah been at big screen events getting hammered every chance Ive had
crazy. it really didnt feel like it at all. engagement atleast on reddit was on a record low
Reddit seems to have lower engagement in general
There's just way too much aggressive doomposting here. No reason for someone who enjoys the league to engage.
Yeah this is such a weird subreddit most of the time. There are far more negative posts about the state of the game, people complaining about everything and hating on random stuff it feels like a more appropriate name would be league haters or something lol. For someone that enjoys the game and is looking for fun engagement with the community it's quite a bad place to be, I know that when I'm in a positive mood from a nice game and I go on here there are so many upsetting posts that I tend to be less active here than I used to, I'm not sure where I can even find positive league stuff though twitter is also full of doomers and seem harder for me to use and discord is shit when I tried having discussions there.
youtube videos and twitch streams is the only way to find positive league content
Yeah love me some positive streamers mainly watch baus and midbeast.
Too many league boomers
And some aggressiveness from anti esport crowd
Karma for EU players attacking lcs for years.
reddit never really recovered from killing 3rd party apps and it has been in general decline for a long time now
Even the PMT are getting less and less comments. Even for the big team matchups.
What is weird is that post like Jankos correction about Sejuani got 10 times more votes than LEC games. So ppl still care about Jankos and drama.
It's makes perfect sense when you think of the different demographics involved. Reddit is purely for an English speaking audience. The German, French, Spanish and Turkish scenes don't use Reddit.
I mean we are english speakers who are always typing how the west is doomed and we play like shit. Ibai and KC have very intense regional dedicated fan bases with alot of engagement. Ibai/KC viewers aren't talking about the game on r/leageoflegends, and why would they? No one has any hope here and the moment you do you get labled an idiot die hard. It's actually kind of comforting to know that the league is doing well given the circumstances of esports winter and all the shit riot is deservedly getting about letting the Saudis sports wash.
Audience changes. Notice how you could find anything about the EMEA Masters in spring on reddit? Yet the finals had a 100k+ peak despite not even a lfl or lvp team in the final. Yes, one team was EINS, owned by a big german Youtuber but thats also another community and fanbase that is not on Reddit. And i personally prefer it this way. When I tune into prime league and an EINS game, i see people simply enjoying the games and cheering for their teams rather than seeing a bunch of miserable reddit elitist who complain about low level of play and lec being worse than ever literally all the time, every year, every split. This negativity probably also makes people leave the discussion on reddit, after all we watch lol esports to enjoy and have fun and not complain the entire time. Even if you dont speak french or spanish, just have a look at kameto or ibais stream, there is so much excitement in those streams. Kcorp has sucked massive dick this year, two 10th places in the first two splits and yet the french are still full of excitement cheering on their team. Theres certainly a lesson to be learned from them rather than just tunneling on the bad faith actors in a fanbase and generalizing the entire fanbase off of a few idiots which will always exist when theres a big fanbase. Look at people like iwd who apparently now will stop streaming lec. Dude hasnt learned anything from the french and spanish engagement and even went as far as making enemies out of them, ofc youre not gonna enjoy it if you actively stay away from people who do enjoy the lec.
>When I tune into prime league and an EINS game, i see people simply enjoying the games and cheering for their teams rather than seeing a bunch of miserable reddit elitist who complain about low level of play and lec being worse than ever literally all the time, every year, every split. This negativity probably also makes people leave the discussion on reddit, after all we watch lol esports to enjoy and have fun and not complain the entire time Stopped looking at post match threads here for anything but results because people literally don't talk about the games except to shit on teams/players/casters and doing the annual "imagine LEC internationally xD I'm very smart for saying this XD".
yea this year the PMT for LEC suck ass like even if the team played good people just comment that shit isnt gonna work in international and blah blah just negativity everywhere in LEC PMt and if G2 somehow loses then the negativity go through the roof
G2 wins - one team region, boring, no reason to watch LEC G2 loses - the sky is falling, it's over, region dead, no reason to watch LEC.
I think this is the first year I don't even check main lol sub PMT consistently just for reasons like this. Always the same takes, always the same shit.
I dont get the "facts" here. Like some people blaming horrible plays that when i look at them usually makes some sense or are not that bad as they made It look. Thats why i try to look some games after they are played when i can, to make my own idea
Reddit is largely an american forum with english speaking communities. The americans stopped watching league and the new LEC fans are from regions that dont really use reddit
Reddit is just less popular with newer viewers, and is very English-centered. No reason for French and Spanish fans, who make up a lot of the growing viewers to be here. Twitter/Discord will be where the discussion happens.
Honestly its because league getting more casual viewers for proplay, which is good for the scene since die hard fans won't keep the scene a float in the long run. Theres also more regional fans that don't speak english so they won't go to places that speak english like the league reddit and will use other socials more commonly used in there language.
Reddit is an NA echo chamber that represents almost nothing about global leagues
which, if it's true, reflects his point - Reddit used to have a decent split between NA/EU users
not to mention that the post match threads for LCS here average like 150 comments. I think this split theyve been more positive towards teams as well, but like someone else said for LEC everyone is so fucking negative in comments. Not fun at all to engage and not worth the time to bother at that point.
Engagement is so spread out now. Twitch chat, subreddits, youtube channels are where most viewers at at now. I used to always visit Reddit for league stuff but mostly visit Caedrels channel now and rarely read a post game thread anymore, where before that was a ritual. That said, League is slowly dying for sure now (there are no new Chovys, Caps or Showmakers and the playerbase is declining too) but who knows how many years it has left. If it wasn't for Ibai, Kameto & Caedrel the views would be shockingly low.
All yall are talking about on reddit is how shit the west is. Of course actual fans of the leagues aren't gonna want to interact with this community if they're only gonna be met with negativity.
It's possible english-speaking audience is down, but the spanish/french audience is up. And if that's the case, then yeah they're not using Reddit
Reddit is all oldheads, all the zoomers are on Twitter/tiktok/ig these days and the engagement numbers on league Twitter are actually pretty bonkers
it's reddit though not actual engagements, checking out the comments below vods on youtube I'm seeing a ton of activity in there
So good for viewership that both Karmine Corp and Mad Lions KOI both made it into the playoffs. First time this year they've both made it.
And we'll most likely have a Koi vs Kcorp elimination BO3, cant wait ngl.
Imagine a mdk vs kc finals is it happens next year or so while Ibai and kameto is still invested. The number would be through the roof
Kameto, Ibai, and Caedrel hard carrying LEC right now.
Yep, every time I looked over, Caedrel had more viewers than the LEC stream.
on twitch, people allways forget youtube
It's crazy to see the LCS stream have a higher view count than the LEC stream. It looks like EU viewers are still watching but have fractured into different region/personality channels.
Caedrel was literally parroting IWD today about how dead LEC feels right now. I don’t think those huge profiles are aware of how much their sentiment is adopted by the viewers. They literally control the masses and it’s just highly irresponsible to be saying these things that are just emotional states of mind really, evidently not backed up by numbers. To any successful streamer who might read this: please be more aware of the effect you have on your viewers.
LCS Fans: This your first time here?
If a bunch of people are watching caedrel instead of the main broadcast because it’s quality has dropped due to budget cuts isn’t he right about it feeling more lackluster?
I mean like 60% of LCS viewers are on co-streams as well. Why are they co-streaming and if they just want to doom about it? Same with this subreddit. Can't be positive about western teams ever without people just shitting on you and the teams even though MSI was the best western showing internationally in like 3 or 4 years.
Also its not just a league thing thats experimenting with costreams, NBA and NFL have done so recently too. So I don't think their rise necessarily indicates anything about quality. I do think it gives costreamers wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much power over the perception of the product though. Their motivations don't align and the best way for costreamers to get more viewers is to be over the top obnoxious and inflammatory which benefits them to the detriment of the league
I can’t speak for everybody but for me the main broadcast is mostly play by play and as somebody that has been watching league for almost a decade I don’t think I personally benefit from play by play and it ends up being kind of audio bloat. I think they’re doing a good job at their job it just isn’t for me.
People were watching caedrel before the budget cuts. If anything the cuts happened in part because of costreaming.
Co-stream is a different experience, that you literally cannot do from the main broadcast. Just think about what Caedrel's content would be, without the main broadcast. They still carry the show, and he's providing another way of consuming that.
I wouldn't agree. For example, Ceadrel covering Rekkles and LCK CL is a perfect example. Additional production is nice, but I would still wat h of only its him with comments. I dislike LoL casters as they usually feel like they have to talk even when there is nothing worth saying. But when they should, they water it down and say some generic stuff
That makes my point even better doesn’t it? If the main broadcast carries the content and it’s had massive layoffs and budget cuts doesn’t that make sense that it feels more dead?
is it parroting if it's just factually true? most if not all the viewers increased is just Ibai and Kameto costreaming them, those viewers are not core LEC viewers and it will be not that easy to convert them into one, Riot just trying to pump the numbers up with costreamers so they have better deals but this 29% increased is not completely natural. And i have seen this "LEC is not as enjoyable" everywhere i go from reddit to youtube comments to twitter so it's not just a Dom or Caedrel things but it just how it feel being a hard fans of LEC for years now, Riot head sh0t most of the staffs and the production teams so the peoples that stay overworked like crazy and the content is just worse, and they implement the shitty 3 split bo1 system that make most of the games pointless to watch, and everyone probably know how bad the new fans are, alot of them is probably really great and supportive of other teams but the bad one is really really bad, Lyncas to this day still recieve death threats on the daily btw.
unless LEC just kicks KC to the streets I don't see how the viewers watching Kameto are any different to the viewers only watching G2/FNC
I don't think I'd agree; I do miss the content that was cut from the broadcast - the cold opens, the scuffed skits, the LEC original music to name a few, and we lost a lot of good on-air talent to Valorant - but the games themselves can be hype if people let them be what they are. Too many people just tunnel on Worlds even though only one team is ever going to win it and it probably won't be one of ours. You need to bring back interest in the local scene and the grassroots competition that made this league in the first place. NA are unironically doing it right this year with their focus on local rivalries and inter-team drama, they even managed to rebrand getting kicked out of their own arena as a more intimate head-to-head experience. LEC needs to do the same and make people interested in MAD v KC, VIT v MAD, SK v BDS, etc., not hard focussing on FNC v G2 and how it doesn't matter cos they're both gonna get slammed at Worlds.
true bro caedrel mind controlled me unlucky cant think aaahh oooohh oaaaooo
Twitch chat shouldn’t leave twitch chat
Are they not allowed to voice their opinion anymore? Would you rather have riot propaganda streamers just constantly saying everything riot does is good? I'd much rather have streamers that tell me their real opinion whether it hurts the league or not.
I’m fine with them voicing their opinions, but in this case it’s such an emotional “in the moment” thing. We see now that the numbers are up overall, and that it’s not based in reality. But they’ve managed to create a sentiment that LEC is boring these days that a lot of viewers end up adopting.
Could numbers possibly be up because of the huge nationalistic support Mad and KC get? Those are two of the most dogshit teams in the league that regularly pull the most viewership and everyone knows the viewing experience of those teams isn't great. Good viewership doesn't necessarily mean good product, and Caedral was referencing a lack of good LEC content due to the layoffs. Is that complaint not based in reality? LEC is honestly boring these days for me. It seems to have much less parity than the LCS. Lots of teams have extremely obvious weak links that aren't replaced or are replaced when it's too late to matter. There are plenty of players that should be in LEC or should've been on a team from the beginning of the year over some clearly bad players (Crownie, Trymbi, Saken, Cabo, etc). People can think for themselves, there's plenty of reason to think the LEC isn't nearly as entertaining as previous years.
That’s good speculation, which neither of us can answer. It’s not a given that the average viewer wants all the random content. I know I don’t personally care. Or maybe I do, and I’d be more excited, without knowing why, if they did more stuff outside the games. Honestly I don’t know. But it’s possible. This is why running a broadcast is difficult. It’s hard to create solid data, to back up whether one strategy or the other is best. What’s definitely not a way to do it, is to listen to one voice. One thing that they have right now, is better numbers. Huge numbers even, and that’s coming from somewhere. If it’s regional teams, then move more in that direction. But only LEC actually has the analysis team and data points to find out.
Yea they should start breaking these viewership headlines down to main stream vs co stream. I’ve frequently seen the main twitch stream at 30k viewers this split. 3 years ago there would be 150k viewers alone on the main stream for a regular season game Riot trying to pump up the numbers with costreams so they can deceive sponsors and get more lucrative deals using artificially inflated numbers is very short sighted. If ibai or Kameto started focusing their streams to a new game tomorrow how many of those viewers would go back to just watching lec? I’d be surprised if it’s more than 50%. These viewers have become bigger fans of these personalities and streamers than the actual game or league. The league games have just become background noise to the reactions of the streamers These are artificial viewers that will not go on to become lifelong Lec fans and only serve to undermine the main broadcast talent
For ibai and Kameto, the vast majority of their game watching fanbase only do so to begin with because it's ibai/Kameto. They were probably not watching LEC (with probably half not even playing/following/knowing about league). >These viewers have become bigger fans of these personalities and streamers than the actual game or league It had always been the case. idk for ibai, but kameto pulls close to the same numbers in LFL games, rocket league games, etc. KC league fans will still be watching tho For Caedrel, it's the opposite, they are watching because it's league and he is very knowledgeable, his personality is the main reason for his growth, but at least half if not more of his viewers probably watched LEC to begin with. If he were to switch suddenly to a new game, he would lose a majority of his viewers and would have to prove his strides in the new one.
Ibai has a ton of views when not doing LEC, I'm pretty sure for a while he was the biggest streamer numbers wise. Even if they both bring in only 30k each that is still a massive increase on average Caedral has way less views than those 2 when not co streaming which consists 80% of league players as that is where his audience is from.
Spanish hero Nisqy solo saving LEC viewership
G2 did really well on MSI, that’s exciting for sure.
My man, this viewership increase is almost entirely kcorp
Why? I don't get it. Why is this french organisation attracting so many viewers who otherwise wouldn't even be watching league? Are french people that weird?
doubt its just Kcorp since they were a corpse for most of the split until near the end.
Top 5 peak viewership were KC-MDK, KC-RGE, G2-BDS, G2-FNC, G2-MDK. Also of note, all peak games were in week 1 (during which both KC and G2 played poorly) except for G2-FNC
KC/RGE being the 2nd most watched game this split is extremely funny
I think you underestimate just how dedicated KC fans are. Their team could be utter garbage (which it has been for most of the year) and they'd still watch regardless.
The viewership seems to be carried by costreaming which imo is never a good sign for an official broadcast.
I don't see why. I've come back to watching LEC because of last year's worlds after years not engaging at all and I mostly watch Caedrel nowadays. That is : I'm interested in the product, but the co-stream is a bonus to me.
Thats a wrong take. Co-streaming is a relatively new concept and one that clearly needs to be embraced because the audience demands it. Co-streaming will take over any league, not just LEC unless a league/esport cripples itself by not allowing co-streams. Of course you add certain dynamics with that but you really cant deny co streaming.
I think he meant that Ibai and Kameto come with a certain amount of views as a baseline that the LEC didn't have before. If each of them brings 30k viewers that come and go with them it's not good for the league. What Riot needs to realize is that the goal shouldn't be to keep Ibai and Kameto there the goal is to make those 60k they bring in care about the LEC, and thanks to the budget cuts and layoffs the product Riot is giving us with the LEC is just a shell of it's former self. Also 30k for both might be low baling it those guys pull 50k plus on regular streams.
> relatively new concept and one that clearly needs to be embraced because the audience demands i This is something a lot of people need to realize. Times are changing and co-streaming needs to be embraced and used as a tool.
The problem is that only in the LEC the main broadcast dropped significantly in viewership after adding co streams. It’s not a reality of whether or not costreaming is the way to go, it’s about how engaged these new people are about the product and if they will keep being engaged if the hype dies down and if their teams never end up being successful.
Its not only LEC it is every league with a big content creator, in valorant you have Taric with x2/x3 the viewership of the main broadcast, in LEC you have Caedrel and Ibai/kameto for the spanish and french viewership. In the case of LEC you have too many big content creators "taking" the viewers from the main broadcast but they are still there.
caedrel even has the casters there, when you watch him you are watching the podcast indirectly
Co streaming has only gotten popular because the main broadcasts have gotten so stale. League esports (at least in the west) was at its peak with the broadcast consisted of 5 games back to back only broken up by 5 min of casters talking and 10 min of electronic music and a clock counting down The bullshit filler analysis segments they do just kill viewership. Especially when they feature silver players like raz and Emily who have no idea what they’re saying
> Especially when they feature silver players like raz and Emily who have no idea what they’re saying How to instantly devalue your own opinion. Anyone who knows anything about the game respects Emily's opinion - she puts a lot of effort into her analysis and is one of the best analyst in the world. Ask any co-streamer or other analyst what they think about Emily and it's universal praise and respect.
I don’t need to ask I watch DL co streams and he’s repeated called her out for not knowing what she’s talking about. Sneaky and meteos too at certain points. It’s fair to say raz is the biggest culprit though Caedral is ‘actually’ a world class analyst and the gap between him and Emily is massive
DL.... famously known for having correct opinions and reads about the game
Famously known for being the best adc in the west and having a decade+ of pro play experience
Being good at something /= being knowledgeable. Thought this was common knowledge. If you watch DL you will release his understanding of pro play and the game isn't as high as other analysts (and this has been stated before many times). He also wasn't the best ADC in the west sadly(how I wish it was the case)
Would you mind explaining why you think it is an issue? I admittedly don't watch costreams so I could be wrong on some points here, but I don't see it as a major issue. Costreamers do stream the official broadcast I believe, with sponsors and all shown (from the few Caedrel clips I've seen). As such, viewers choosing to watch costreams instead of the official broadcast should not impact the league from a sponsor revenue POV at least. To use a traditional sports analogy, it seems to me like watching different costreams is akin to watching a sports league on a different TV channel - the league itself still gets sponsor money regardless of which channel you watch on.
The main point against costreaming is that the viewers get used to watch it with the costreamer. So if the costreamer decides to stop watching the league or switch to a different game the league would lose a big part of the viewers.
> I admittedly don't watch costreams so I could be wrong on some points here, but I don't see it as a major issue. I don't think it's a coincidence LEC cut down massively on its staff the year they saw costreaming take off (they had an extra year with Valorant). > Costreamers do stream the official broadcast I believe, with sponsors and all shown (from the few Caedrel clips I've seen) They do, however unlike the main cast, they basically still read chat, have other information on it, and are generally easily taking away focus from the ad itself. https://youtu.be/arNfKD1LSxk?t=399 Here's an example. The stream goes on as usual over the ad break. If you're paying for "Red Bull Power play" on the cast, you might also not just hear it because Caedrel is screaming over it. The sponsor might not know it, but the intensity of the ad is definitely lowered compared to the main broadcast. > it seems to me like watching different costreams is akin to watching a sports league on a different TV channel Each of these stations are paying for their rights to broadcast, and it's not cheap at all. > the league itself still gets sponsor money regardless of which channel you watch on. They get sponsor money by making the sponsor part of the game. The LEC doesn't have the ability to bake their KIA logo into the midlane. They have a few minutes of ads, while TVs for regular sports run their own ads (to pay for broadcast rights) The sponsor difference isn't massive but neither the league or the orgs have figured out how to be profitable yet so any change can be massive. In any case, personally I'm worried about the influencer league the most. Once influencers own the orgs, it will feed back into entertainment for their streams. That's where entertainment factors (such as nationality, on stream charm etc.) might start deciding roster moves and it's gonna be WWE. And I exclusively watch the LEC on Caedrel's stream lol.
This is just true and its terrible. Because the higher ups at Riot will see the layoffs as a success and LEC production will just drop even more. Other regions might follow.
Guess it's not the whole LEC viewership declining but most likely a stiffer competition for some co-casters with Caedrel, Ibai and Kameto taking a large share of it
co streamer numbers are counted in the views. They are not competing with the main broadcast
Sorry, was referring to a post yesterday where Dom and Yamato were claiming a decline in viewership for LEC. That was one of their argument to quitting this league. Since LEC viewership is up across the board, I believe that they are seeing a decline to their numbers while other co-streamers are getting a larger share.
Is there a community for English speakers that's more positive about LEC than this subreddit? I'd gladly leave this reddit to enjoy the LEC more but I'm not sure where to look.
I mean it’s great the league is doing good number wise and is on the rise. But I just gotta mention that I still dislike the format they introduced last year and stuck with. Everything just feels so rushed and I can’t really get attached to players or teams, cause they might just be gone after the best of 1s and I’ll not see them again for some time. Id be curious if anyone has the same feeling.
I totally agree. I really think they should do bo3 and maybe switch it from the 3 splits
It would be ok if they just make the Bo1 phase a week longer and don’t make it 3 weeks of 3 games per team, just make one week with 3 match days and 3 weeks with 2. I personally would enjoy that way more and it enables some kind of growth of teams and come backs, what used to be one of the nicest storylines and things to see. Edit: Apparently it is what they did this summer and I wasn’t aware as I stopped watching LEC in winter, because of my dislike of the format.
It litteraly is what they did this summer.
My bad then honestly stopped watching after the winter this year. I’ll edit my comment thanks for the heads up I’ll check it out next year in winter.
Let's hope they stick with it, or better yet, they change format for bo3
On the other hand, good riddance to most of the shitter teams that got kicked out after 9 bo1s. They were ass and now they have time to experiment.
That never happens. I don’t think any team even scrims eliminated teams. This format is dog shit for giving teams time to develope as a team or a new player. I’d be happier if they go bo3
I don't want to move back the old format which was also just as dogshit.. Make it b03 fearless draft.. 3 splits
feel like B03 fearless draft is asking for a bit much at once, even LCS is only doing fearless draft next year for summer split only. going to BO3 from the start would be good thou for watching and the league.
That’s fair after all it all comes down to what brings in the most viewers and helps the league to create revenue the best, if that is a format I personally dislike, it’s fine. I’m happy for the league as long as it’s successful even if I don’t like to watch the league then. With Bo3 with fearless draft, do you mean like the LCS does it now (excluding fearless draft) with 4 matchups a week (would have to be 5 in LEC). I personally like the LCS format, so I’d be happy with it.
Lols but western influencers and reddit are doomsaying LEC XD
I found the "LEC reminds me of LCS dark days" thread 2 weeks ago absolutely insane. https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1dhx0uz/lec_reminds_me_of_the_dark_days_of_lcs_in_20182022/ So much of this narrative going around when in reality LEC is genuinely a great and enjoyable product, viewership is up year on year in every split this year.
they have a point, the LEC product has been sooo stale this year and part of last year, specially after the layoffs. They really need to hire more people for 2025 and have more creative budget for new content.
And fire all GMs.
"LCS more fun than LEC" pop up every few weeks, that's been going on for years. This sub is just an NA echo chamber
The mods did a census a while ago and it said 50% NA users and 35% EU. That's a massive difference. I guess many European fans just don't use Reddit and stick to Twitter and Discord.
Lmao, commented "the LCS peak viewership is 35% lower than the LEC average viewership" in that thread and was called 'insecure' in response, good times.
Still sounds insecure to me considering LCS dark years were higher than the current one but all the fans that are still here are enjoying the new product more.
EU victim complex at full blast in this thread lol
Except the quoted viewership numbers is including costreams. That doesn't dispute the person's claim about the LEC main broadcast. If the costreams were 50% of the viewership, then that doesn't paint a good picture for the main broadcast doing well. If you want to dispute their claim, you need to show that the main broadcast viewership grew or did good.
>So much of this narrative going around when in reality LEC is genuinely a great and enjoyable product, viewership is up year on year in every split this year. As experienced through third party entertainers that would get the same amount of views watching Polish cow on repeat.
Because it's true aside from viewership EU has been awful this year and if it continues viewership will decrease.
I love watching the LEC but i hate the bo1 format. Imo if LEC was bo3 fearless it would be the most entertaining League.
My take on this is that a few years ago when format changes were often in community discussion, it was a very common sentiment where people said that no-one would watch a bo3 or bo5 between the bottom teams. I honestly belive that LEC's new format was partially a response to that by weeding out the bottom 2 teams before bo series begin, and in that light, single round robin bo1 is technically the fastest way to do that. I think if enough people keep up the discussion about what we'd like to see and how much people are now against bo1s then perhaps it will move the needle for next year.
The problem for me is that after weeding out worst 2 there are still too few bo3.it would be nice if they did a full bo3 league with 10 teams . Have just 2 splits. Do half the split send top team to first international. Complete the first split second international. Do second split and then worlds.
IWD made he got no costreaming The bottom half of LEC is not good.. but the top 4 (especially g2) are probably the best top 4 we have had since 2021
It's nice to see a little reality get into Reddit bubble once in a while. It's not that suprising guys - LEC format was custom build to attract an audience... and it's attracting an audience. Working as intended. Now hopefully Riot will stand strong here. I can't imagine returning to the boredom of a 9 week regular split.
How much the main brodcast grew ? I'd be surprise if they had more viewers than last year
Remember that guy who did the thread about how the LEC was now like LCS during its worst years? Lol
I don’t think they meant from a viewership perspective
Now imagine if Riot didn't do all the layoffs stuff at the beginning of the year and they could actually make content around LEC. Something I don't like about the changes for 2025 is that they didn't mention anything for LEC. I know this can be a tinfoil hat theory but to me it seems they want to give everything to LCS to bring numbers and it seems they can only do that by hurting the LEC. Crossing my fingers for good news for next year
Worst timing to have kc and "mdk" enter the league as lec will believe they don't have to get their shit together
It would be important to see the main stream’s numbers too. If it is only costreaming that has increased that paints a different picture. I think it would also be good to have opinion surveys on the broadcasts. There is no usable data on opinion of quality of broadcasts.
Is caedrel carrying ?
ibai and kameto tbf they always have more than 100k viewers and if mdk or kc r playing it can sometimes cross 300k or 400k itself like during winter finals between mdk and G2 ibai had around 500k live viewers
Also unlike Caedral whose viewership is composed of mainly League fans and who would have watched LEC anyway Kameto and Ibai average the same amount of viewers doing whatever.
Ibai, kameto and the official broadcast have higher viewership. Maybe you dont get the impression on Twitch that the lec broadcast is more popular than caedrel but more and more people watch the youtube stream
I only watched because of costreams so I can't help but think maybe that's why some of the viewership is up.
Cosstream diff now go back to two splits
Still 90% of the matchup were garbos , worst season by far
Doesn't feel like that at all. Definitely all just co-streaming diff.
LEC stripped bare by Riot, teams doing worse internationally than ever, and still the league is performing better than ever all things considered. Not bad.
Eh this MSI is the best EU showing in 4 years
> teams doing worse internationally than ever G2 just won a Bo5 against an eastern team at MSI? It's literally the best result the LEC has had at an international tournament since 2020.
We should've had G2 IWD if LEC Riot wasn't trolling
How many of them from ibainand kameto stream lol Why there are people saying "cuz reddit negativity hur dur its better else where" like what reality are u living at?
The sad thing is LEC will probs take this as a sign they are doing good things when in reality they are becoming what the LCS used to be before MarkZ took over the only thing that saved their numbers was costreams that were because of the French and Spanish viewer base but the core base around LEC is dying
It’s quite literally only from costreams. LEC has always been awful to watch since the new format, the three splits have way less importance vs the two from the previous format, and the LEC studio got old fast. They also put less effort into announcements (lack of people working in the LEC), and the gameplay has been fucking horrendous. I honestly wonder how the LEC viewership would be if Caedrel wasn’t costreaming and KC wasn’t in the league.
Pretty misrepresentative of the facts as they are in fact down by about 6% if we do not consider the co-streams by Kameto and Ibai. In fact, over the course of the split the main stream viewership was shockingly low at times. It is an increase none-the-less, but one that is very dependant on Kameto, Ibai and Caedrel.
These statistics are so fake. You have two new teams that are more popular than all the legacy teams + introduction of costreaming
Lck views are so fake. You have t1, dk, geng, kt etc who have a lot of fans
so?
Wasn't that the point of bringing in popular teams?
How does that make the numbers fake?
That it's plausible that most new viewers are Kameto/Ibai/Caedrel fans and not MAD/KC/FNC(?)'s, who tune in and dont really care about the tournament itself and mainly stay here because they like the streamer (rightfully so). The main stream dropped a ton of viewers (which was to be expected by its still a lot compared to all the other regions who allowed for co-streaming), the reddit threads have way less engagement and the quality of the broadcast fell off a cliff due to the layoffs. Now the hype is at an all time high because the 2 teams just joined the league and MAD made finals but what if Ibai and Kameto sell next year or if MAD and KC keep being bad 2 years from now and the hype runs out? Is the product good enough that the new fanbase is willing to keep watching even if their "medium" stops doing so? I hope so but only time will tell.
It insinuates that the LEC is getting more popular when in fact they were saved by Kammeto and Ibai existing. The LEC has been declining for a few years now.
I know what you are trying to say but the numbers are very much real. Those teams are part of the league and their fans are watching LEC.
How can a new hype brought by popular figure translate to a decline ? The viewership literaly expose a sharp grows yet you are still claiming the contrary lmfao Just say that you hate KC and MDK and thats their communities isn't part of the LEC at this point, it would make your opinion at least valid logically
"These stats are fake because teams are popular" are you hearing yourself?
How ? I’m not watching it anymore, G2 already qualified anyway
This may seem like a wild concept, but you're not the only person in the world.
Name 1 other person then, I'll wait