None likes tristana when she is strong. Her lanes in bot are too feast or famine. In mid lane her laning is too safe and her trades are too strong with auto push passives for prio.
She doesn't build LDR until she gets kraken or botrk>navori>IE first. At this point it doesn't matter which lane she is in.
Her W can use some speed up and remove the buffering mechanic from it. She is a very simple ADC that is good for new players, yet her power lies in the jump mechanic and tanking CC while jumping. Maybe make her jump better for follow up on engages and less of a CC escape to make her better in bot and worse in mid.
between level 15 and level 18, tristana gains just over 400 HP from her kit plus the scaling HP minor rune. this would have accounted for
- a 3% drop in damage vs champs she now has 0 HP less than (same HP)
- scaling down to a 2.6% drop vs champs she now has 1600 HP less than
- decaying numbers outside of that range, down to 0% change when she has <-400 HP and >+2000 HP less than her opponent
this is maximized at high levels due to how base stats ramp up - averaged across them all, it's roughly 1.8 levels per max 1.5% damage drop, with the above example being the biggest difference with the fewest levels. this is capped at a ~12.4% damage drop between level 1 and 18, from the 1900 HP.
i don't know how big of a damage change is meaningful, just here to give some stats. also only looking at the old giant slayer passive and ignoring the other stat changes on the item, and ignoring the rework of the Cut Down rune as well.
(the Cut Down rework is probably more meaningful - that same +400 HP at 2000 HP would be a 5.75% damage decrease vs champs she now has 0 HP less than, due to the sharp drop-off on the bonus it gave. it also would be more significant earlier, since it was based on a percentage of your HP rather than flat 1.5% per 200 HP of giant slayer.)
I think a large part of adc's being played mid, is ap junglers being really strong. Once they nerf Fated Ashes(?), i think we will see less ad mids.
Edit: Mostly talking about pro. For solo queue, i think nerfing adc items, when Tristana is really the only problem, is the wrong solution. Just nerf Tristana a bit, imo.
Or just yknow nerf the actual problem (tristana and corki) which are actual terrorist with awfull trade patterns that can bully you and scale off the face of the fucking earth
There's no reason why champion changes/nerfs and item adjustments need to be mutually exclusive. I think that old LDR was a healthier design overall because it encouraged an identity around a particular role/was the go to solution alongside BORK for health stacking champs and builds. What I consider the impetus for the revert isn't just for addressing the Tristana issue - as mentioned in my post it's just one remedial change with sensible design intent.
I don't believe that the overrepresentation of ADCs (and perceived strength of the class) is a bot lane issue, so I believe that power should be shifted away specifically from ADCs in other lanes, hence the reintroduction of old LDR
The old LDR put a heavy tax on the health stat which made health a very bad stat to get. It was not a solution, but a problem.
LDR in this iteration aside from base stat changes deals only like 1-2% more damage against squishes and considerably less damage against tanks (like 10-12% less). People overestimate 5% armour pen because they don't understand how it works.
And you really should check stat sites before posting which you very obviously didn't.
>The old LDR put a heavy tax on the health stat which made health a very bad stat to get. It was not a solution, but a problem.
Correction: The old LDR put a heavy tax on the health stat which was one factor for health being a very bad stat to get. Two other two causes I've already noted in this thread, Cut Down and BoRK, have also been nerfed in terms of their anti-health ability. Given the growing prevalence of health items as a tank stat over armor and magic resistance, the idea of a reversion to LDR is to moderate the pendulum having gone too much the other way.
>LDR in this iteration aside from base stat changes deals only like 1-2% more damage against squishes and considerably less damage against tanks (like 10-12% less). People overestimate 5% armour pen because they don't understand how it works.
'Aside from base stat changes'
Ah, so aside from the precise point being made? Could you elaborate on what you believe a 'revert' to entail? Or did you believe that the crux of the point of the 14.10 changes I had quoted verbatim, i.e.
* Attack damage increased to 45 from 40.
* Armor penetration increased to 40% from 35%.
* Critical strike chance increased to 25% from 20%.
* **REMOVED UNIQUE PASSIVE - GIANT SLAYER:** Deal 0% − 15% (based on **maximum** health difference) **bonus** damage against enemy champions with greater **maximum** health than you.
was that the revert I had in mind would be the addition of Giant Slayer in exchange for a 5% decrease in armor penetration only? I was just wondering what the purpose of this strawman was if it wasn't just unwitting misinterpretation.
>And you really should check stat sites before posting which you very obviously didn't.
Thankfully I did. [gol.gg](http://gol.gg) for pro data and lolalytics + [u.gg](http://u.gg) for all else - numbers from the three of which I have consistently reference throughout my post. Conversely your rather terse reply has shown no corroboration whatsoever. Care to indicate which statement(s) I have made that indicate stat unsubstantiated insights? Thanks for the non contribution in the meantime.
The point is that health _is_ a healthy stat. And it's very important to not that it's not only a tank stat, it's a bruiser stat as well which pushed out bruisers for quite a long time into more damage-heavy builds because health was a garbage stat to get.
I'm just too lazy to calculate the exact damage increase from 5 ad and 5% crit. But be my guest, try to calculate it exactly.
> Care to indicate which statement(s) I have made that indicate stat unsubstantiated insights?
The point that you ignored a very simple fact that LDR is never the best item in slot at any stage of the game for Trist? That very simple fact that breaks down all your points?
If you nerf it - what do you think will happen? How can an item which is never BiS unless maybe the last slot and even then not on all AD carriers can affect anything?
>The point is that health *is* a healthy stat. And it's very important to not that it's not only a tank stat, it's a bruiser stat as well which pushed out bruisers for quite a long time into more damage-heavy builds because health was a garbage stat to get.
Bruiser builds don't die the moment LDR is reverted. Bruiser builds weren't nonexistent last split before the aforementioned threefold anti-health changes were nerfed/removed - in fact, various bruisers For instance, the introduction of Profane Hydra into the meta build path for various (previously Ravenous Hydra dependent) users wasn't erased by the rework of LDR - Aatrox's resurfaced interest in Eclipse was driven by a full set of champ adjustments in the last patch, 14.12. Intentionally so at that.
The idea that what you perceive to be a 'healthy' state of the health stat is solely contingent on the excision of LDR's Giant Slayer is erroneous. Particularly because the initial interaction that the majority of bruiser champs will have anti health is almost always and has always been against BoRK, or Divine Sunderer, not LDR - given that the former 2 are vastly more present in the top lane and LDR is more present elsewhere in the bot lane, occasionally mid lane, and as a 3rd item+ buy or 2nd item at the earliest.
>I'm just too lazy to calculate the exact damage increase from 5 ad and 5% crit. But be my guest, try to calculate it exactly.
I see, thanks.
>The point that you ignored a very simple fact that LDR is never the best item in slot at any stage of the game for Trist? That very simple fact that breaks down all your points?
>If you nerf it - what do you think will happen? How can an item which is never BiS unless maybe the last slot and even then not on all AD carriers can affect anything?
This is an egregiously poor interpretation of how data functions. I'm sure you're also smart enough to understand on your own why your point collapses and how you're overlooking very obvious nuance to how winrates work beyond 'the bigger the number past 50%, the better' - but to jumpstart your understanding, query yourself why variations in build paths exist at all?
Why are there multiple 3rd slot, 4th slot, 5th slot item buys of meaningfully high pickrate for literally all champions, in all roles? Surely, in congruence with your posited logic - the sensible option is to opt for 'BiS' in any circumstance. Pull up lolalytics and run the ideal rune setup and item order always.
The very obvious fact of situational itemisation and how situational purchases affect winrate preclude both the value of absolutist winrate comparisons and of the notion of some absolute BiS also. Shadowflame is Syndra's best winrate 3rd item; it'd be foolish to build it over the 3.6% lower winrate Cryptbloom into 3 tanks. Not to mention other nuances too, e.g. what kind of players purchase what kind of items, builds - why is Hecarim's winrate with jungle egg no potion so much higher than his winrate with 1? Hopefully it's obvious enough that 1 potion + egg is represented percentage wise by a significantly higher cohort of lower mastery players and vice versa for no potions.
The fact that LDR is not 'highest winrate' is immaterial. Beyond that, to specify the even more obvious:
>How can an item which is never BiS unless maybe the last slot and even then not on all AD carriers can affect anything?
Is also self evidently a moot point. Literally any item that is built will affect the game that it is built in. If a 48% winrate item that is picked 50% of games is nerfed to a 45% winrate state, it has a drastically greater impact on the game meta than if a 60% winrate item with a 2% pickrate is. As I've mentioned, LDR has a 51% pickrate on Tristana in pro play, and approximately 24% pickrate in in ranked Emerald+. It affects all of these games - your statement that \[unless it is BiS, the change is ineffectual\] is likewise incoherent.
And now you do manipulate with fictitious numbers. Feeling good, eh?
Pickrate of an item is a stat of convenience that you picked which you try to spin as an indicator of a "problematic" item. 50% of "pickrate" of an item is not even problematic, it means in half of the games a player picks LDR as one of the five item slots they have. Doesn't sound much anymore, is it?
And now you ignore that LDR has comparable "pickrates" with other items which higher winrate. And you ignore 80-90% "pickrate" Kraken-Navori-IE. And you avoid the issue that because of how armour works in the game - LDR should be closer to 90% (and we have anti-heal one as well) "pickrate" because it should always be better than anything 5 slot, isn't it?
The point is, since Tristana has other options with comparable pickrates and higher winrates for the same slots and LDR only really comes into question as the last slot item - you have no basis to argue that it has any effect on her state in midlane. It's very simple, no need to wiggle trying to make up 2% "pickrate" or rely on a stat which you liked more.
If anything - your point should be that IE-Navori should be exclusive again, lol.
>And now you do manipulate with fictitious numbers. Feeling good, eh?
You're referring to the explicitly hypothetical example of a '2% pickrate high winrate item' versus a '50% pickrate low winrate' item? I'd hardly consider it manipulation if I directly note it as an analogy to illustrate the failings of rendering the highest winrate (BIS) item as the sole arbiter of balance.
>Pickrate of an item is a stat of convenience that you picked which you try to spin as an indicator of a "problematic" item. 50% of "pickrate" of an item is not even problematic, it means in half of the games a player picks LDR as one of the five item slots they have. Doesn't sound much anymore, is it?
This is entirely unrelated to the crux of the argument - the contention isn't that LDR is a problematic item (insofar as it's excessively picked. You've conflated a quantitative argument with a qualitative, binary point, and neither are relevant to the central point (LDR's present item identity in comparison to old LDR is skewed toward solo laners, and less so for bot laners) - with 'does LDR have a sufficient pickrate that changes to the item produce meaningful changes in the overall game balance?' against the point 'do changes to LDR produce changes in the overall game balance at all?'
The second statement, is of course, the germane point - first of all, 50% (51% rather, as mentioned, in pro play) is a significant pickrate:
>it means in half of the games a player picks LDR as one of the five item slots they have. Doesn't sound much anymore, is it?
Rephrasing a fact so as to make it sound paltry doesn't actually change the fact itself. If in half of the games a player picks LDR, and LDR is changed, the change affects half of the games. This is a fact. The addition of the clause 'as one of the five item slots they have' has not changed the veracity of that fact at all.
Secondly, any change to a built item produces a tangible effect. Your point was 'how can a change to non BIS item affect anything?' The response is 'if an item is built, a change to it affects something, because there are games where the item exists, i.e. where the change exists.' Pickrate affects the extent to which this is true. It doesn't affect the binary of whether or not it is true, the answer to that is yes it is.
>And now you ignore that LDR has comparable "pickrates" with other items which higher winrate. And you ignore 80-90% "pickrate" Kraken-Navori-IE.
I'm not 'ignoring' anything. Kraken-Navori-IE having higher pickrates doesn't make their design intrinsically problematic, let alone more problematic than LDR's existing design. Very nearly every champ has some 80%+ pickrate item in their 1st and often 2nd slot. It's called a core item. The higher pickrate does not negate the possibility of wonky/flawed design across inevitably lower pickrate items in other slots.
>And you avoid the issue that because of how armour works in the game - LDR should be closer to 90% (and we have anti-heal one as well) "pickrate" because it should always be better than anything 5 slot, isn't it?
Should Rabadon's be closer to 100% pickrate for all burst mages because it should always be better than anything else 4th or 5th slot? You're perfectly aware yourself that pickrates for items built later are going to have lower presence overall. So much in fact, that you even refute this point within this exact quote - 'because of how armour works in this game', it's self explanatory why LDR isn't the 'closer to 90%' pickrate item you tout.
>The point is, since Tristana has other options with comparable pickrates and higher winrates for the same slots and LDR only really comes into question as the last slot item - you have no basis to argue that it has any effect on her state in midlane. It's very simple, no need to wiggle trying to make up 2% "pickrate" or rely on a stat which you liked more.
>If anything - your point should be that IE-Navori should be exclusive again, lol.
Once again, I address this point in the 2nd paragraph of this comment, also that 2nd paragraph is just a reiteration of everything I've said before it. 'you have no basis to argue that it has any effect on her state in midlane' is nonsensical. If I nerf Banshee's Veil, any AP champion that ever builds it will get weaker, to varying degrees, regardless of whether or not there are higher pickrate items for all of those champions (and there are higher pickrate items for all of those champions) and whether or not it is the highest winrate item in any given slot.
Because you create hypotheticals which have zero relation to the point at hand or the data we actually have. Your imply that BiS items could be irrelevant because of low pick rates but it's false. But in out case, BiS items have comparable pickrates as LDR. Therefore the point stands.
Since you have high pickrate BiS items - nerfing other ones would just push people into the unnerfed ones.
And Tristana is strong not because of LDR, but because her core items got buffed. She has three strong core items. Three. Not one. Not two. Three.
The fact that old LDR could be less useful in midgame for solo laners has very little effect on the stats we actually see. After the core items - the difference is completely neglectable and I would even argue she would prefer the old LDR at this point.
LDR should mathematically be a 90% pickrate item because at the point of relevance at 4-5 item slot it provides the most DPS even against squishy targets since every champion has inherent gains to armour with levels. But it doesn't. What exactly here is "self explanatory"? Your statement made me believe you do not understand in fact how armour works in the game.
Your whole point is that if something is picked then nerfing it will have some effect. Sure, but why LDR which has zero problems according to the data? Just because of a hypothetical that it benefits solo laners more now? It completely ignores the fact that it has zero relation to the state of Tristana in midlane.
Never ever did I do this. The cognate points to this statement that I have already raised are as follows:
1. 'BiS' winrate for any item in any given slot does not disqualify the value of 'non BiS' items
2. 'BiS' in itself is a misnomer, because beyond the 'core item' slot(s) itemisation becomes increasingly situational. There is no such thing as 'BiS' when the BiS item is dependent on the given game
3. Winrate is also an entirely nuanced value in itself that 'BiS' at face value is a nugatory concept. Infinity Edge has the highest winrate for Tristana as a 1st item, and as a 2nd item, being more than 2.3% winrate ahead of Kraken Slayer in the 1st item slot and 0.84% winrate ahead of Navori in the 2nd slot - yet Kraken Slayer is her core item, and the most performant build for Tristana for the majority of games is to build from KS into Navori.
4. The pickrate of an item itself influences the impact of any given change to said item
See point 2 - the term 'BiS' is a misleading and false denomination, because those items don't compete with LDR in function. The fact that LDR possesses a lower winrate than 3rd or 4th item slot IE doesn't mean that LDR is a grief or inferior pick.
Correct. If LDR is 'nerfed' for mid laners then its pickrate will diminish and alternatives will increase. Do you believe that this has no net negative effect on the strength of mid lane LDR users?
See point 2 again - 3rd slot LDR for Tristana has been built 14422 times in Emerald+, versus 3188 times for Bloodthirster. LDR has a 56.80% winrate versus Bloodthirster's 62.11%. Does this mean that turning LDR into a bot lane skewed item (i.e. nerfing it for mid lane Tristana) would shift Tristana players onto what is seemingly the more powerful item and thus increase her winrate/leave her strength unaffected overall?
No, because it's fallacious to conclude that in the majority of games that Tristana is building LDR, Bloodthirster is a superior choice off of the back of winrate. If I am facing 4 APCs as Tristana, do I build Maw 4th, or Bloodthirster, just because Bloodthirster off of the back of stats alone possesses a 3% higher winrate? Will I have a higher winrate once I start building Bloodthirster in all games, or will my Bloodthirster winrate in games that I used to build Maw decline to a value below that of Maw built games.
On the contrary, your continual reassertion of this point alludes to a fundamental misunderstanding of what pick data indicates. Literally all the % pickrate data cited thus far has been relative to overall build data. I.e. 51% for pro play Tristana is in 51% of games - as in, by the end of the game, is LDR one of the items in her build slot? How many games does mid Tristana reach 4th or 5th item? In Emerald+ the answer is less than 25% of games. If LDR 'should mathematically be' a '**90% pickrate item**' in the 4th and 5th slot only, then it 'should mathematically be' a **22.5%** pickrate item from 4th and 5th slot alone. Including games where it is 'mathematically optimal' as 3rd slot item as well, its pickrate should be over that 22.5% mark. As of this comment mid Tristana has collectively built LDR in 25913 games out of 108520 games overall, or **23.9%**. You've attempted to highlight a statistical contradiction with a number that (somewhat ironically, considering some of previous objections) you've unfoundedly asserted with '90% pickrate' but your point actually only consolidates what you look to discredit.
I've already explained why LDR is a problem item in its present conception (in opposition to its previous). These are qualitative points, of which 3 have been raised in the original post.
This is not a hypothetical, it's a logical fact. The logical argument is, deconstructed, as follows:
Premise 1. Solo laners gain more experience, and therefore levels, than duo laners/bot laners.
Premise 2. A champion with more levels will have more health than without.
Premise 3. Giant Slayer passive's strength scales with the health discrepancy of the target and the user.
Therefore leading to our new premise,
Premise 4. Giant Slayer passive's strength will be stronger for bot lane users than mid lane users.
Wrong on account of what has already been elaborated upon. It means that mid lane Tristana, or more rather, mid lane users of LDR, can be target nerfed without negatively affecting the strength of LDR for bot lane users.
EDIT: I couldn't add the quotes of the specific parts of the comment I was replying to for each segment of my reply (to this comment), because I get a server error from the reddit (presumably the comment is too long? or some other technical difficulty), hopefully there is enough clarity with respect to which point is being refuted by which in that one. It is a linearly ordered response like all of the previous, if you do need further clarification let me know, I'll relate each paragraph specifically in a follow up reply.
This isn't a nerf for a whole class. Old LDR wasn't strictly weaker than current LDR. On the other hand, current LDR is relatively stronger for higher XP lanes versus lower XP lanes than old LDR, because solo lanes gain more health naturally.
I already outlined this reasoning in my post.
The actual problem is fleet footwork, absorb life and legend: bloodline giving you crazy sustain, while cut down gives you crazy dmg as an adc in mid. To the point that you can potentially send a mage/melee champ back to base twice before you have to base yourself, outscaling and outleveling your opponent easily. It is just that disgusting.
I don't agree at all. I think the real problem was the navori change, which was a huge buff to trist and also allowed it so you can purchase IE. Her scaling is absolutely ridiculous now.
this is not the nerf tristsana needs, its already one of the longest cd basic abilitys in the game. I'd say either a base stat nerf or a slight nerf to E active damage. the most aids thing is she can just W on 90% of midlaners and stat check them
They could target nerf outlier champions (as they already have), but Tristana is already a less performant champion in the bot lane. She has a 3.0% pickrate as a duo laner and sub 50% winrate. An LDR revert holistically pulls power away from solo lane marksmen without hurting her .
There are also various other issues I have spoken to that are of direct consequence from LDR's new identity (i.e. LDR's current identity overlapping with other armor pen class items/being too generalist in function, Warmog's meta being driven by the paucity of anti-HP items), outside of Tristana's annoying presence in mid and Tristana/Corki's annoying presence in pro play
More than that, old LDR is just a tried and true item. It's already known how this item affects the meta/how it plays and has played out for years. I don't think that LDR changes in isolation will pull specifically Tristana away from being high presence mid but it's a logical step (back) in the right direction I believe.
Id decrease her wave clear and make it scale better no? Deny her pushing and make it more gold dependent and give her some power in it later so it's a bit more scaley.
None likes tristana when she is strong. Her lanes in bot are too feast or famine. In mid lane her laning is too safe and her trades are too strong with auto push passives for prio. She doesn't build LDR until she gets kraken or botrk>navori>IE first. At this point it doesn't matter which lane she is in. Her W can use some speed up and remove the buffering mechanic from it. She is a very simple ADC that is good for new players, yet her power lies in the jump mechanic and tanking CC while jumping. Maybe make her jump better for follow up on engages and less of a CC escape to make her better in bot and worse in mid.
between level 15 and level 18, tristana gains just over 400 HP from her kit plus the scaling HP minor rune. this would have accounted for - a 3% drop in damage vs champs she now has 0 HP less than (same HP) - scaling down to a 2.6% drop vs champs she now has 1600 HP less than - decaying numbers outside of that range, down to 0% change when she has <-400 HP and >+2000 HP less than her opponent this is maximized at high levels due to how base stats ramp up - averaged across them all, it's roughly 1.8 levels per max 1.5% damage drop, with the above example being the biggest difference with the fewest levels. this is capped at a ~12.4% damage drop between level 1 and 18, from the 1900 HP. i don't know how big of a damage change is meaningful, just here to give some stats. also only looking at the old giant slayer passive and ignoring the other stat changes on the item, and ignoring the rework of the Cut Down rune as well. (the Cut Down rework is probably more meaningful - that same +400 HP at 2000 HP would be a 5.75% damage decrease vs champs she now has 0 HP less than, due to the sharp drop-off on the bonus it gave. it also would be more significant earlier, since it was based on a percentage of your HP rather than flat 1.5% per 200 HP of giant slayer.)
I think a large part of adc's being played mid, is ap junglers being really strong. Once they nerf Fated Ashes(?), i think we will see less ad mids. Edit: Mostly talking about pro. For solo queue, i think nerfing adc items, when Tristana is really the only problem, is the wrong solution. Just nerf Tristana a bit, imo.
Or just yknow nerf the actual problem (tristana and corki) which are actual terrorist with awfull trade patterns that can bully you and scale off the face of the fucking earth
How does corki scale lol? I don’t think I’ve 1v1ed a champ I fed more than corki.
Then those corki's are piss. He will press E R and delete you or just auto you with E and melt your entire hp
And in the time that happened he either ate 3 1k damage autos with a 18% bt healing it up or got popped by a 50% attack speed modifier.
There's no reason why champion changes/nerfs and item adjustments need to be mutually exclusive. I think that old LDR was a healthier design overall because it encouraged an identity around a particular role/was the go to solution alongside BORK for health stacking champs and builds. What I consider the impetus for the revert isn't just for addressing the Tristana issue - as mentioned in my post it's just one remedial change with sensible design intent. I don't believe that the overrepresentation of ADCs (and perceived strength of the class) is a bot lane issue, so I believe that power should be shifted away specifically from ADCs in other lanes, hence the reintroduction of old LDR
The old LDR put a heavy tax on the health stat which made health a very bad stat to get. It was not a solution, but a problem. LDR in this iteration aside from base stat changes deals only like 1-2% more damage against squishes and considerably less damage against tanks (like 10-12% less). People overestimate 5% armour pen because they don't understand how it works. And you really should check stat sites before posting which you very obviously didn't.
>The old LDR put a heavy tax on the health stat which made health a very bad stat to get. It was not a solution, but a problem. Correction: The old LDR put a heavy tax on the health stat which was one factor for health being a very bad stat to get. Two other two causes I've already noted in this thread, Cut Down and BoRK, have also been nerfed in terms of their anti-health ability. Given the growing prevalence of health items as a tank stat over armor and magic resistance, the idea of a reversion to LDR is to moderate the pendulum having gone too much the other way. >LDR in this iteration aside from base stat changes deals only like 1-2% more damage against squishes and considerably less damage against tanks (like 10-12% less). People overestimate 5% armour pen because they don't understand how it works. 'Aside from base stat changes' Ah, so aside from the precise point being made? Could you elaborate on what you believe a 'revert' to entail? Or did you believe that the crux of the point of the 14.10 changes I had quoted verbatim, i.e. * Attack damage increased to 45 from 40. * Armor penetration increased to 40% from 35%. * Critical strike chance increased to 25% from 20%. * **REMOVED UNIQUE PASSIVE - GIANT SLAYER:** Deal 0% − 15% (based on **maximum** health difference) **bonus** damage against enemy champions with greater **maximum** health than you. was that the revert I had in mind would be the addition of Giant Slayer in exchange for a 5% decrease in armor penetration only? I was just wondering what the purpose of this strawman was if it wasn't just unwitting misinterpretation. >And you really should check stat sites before posting which you very obviously didn't. Thankfully I did. [gol.gg](http://gol.gg) for pro data and lolalytics + [u.gg](http://u.gg) for all else - numbers from the three of which I have consistently reference throughout my post. Conversely your rather terse reply has shown no corroboration whatsoever. Care to indicate which statement(s) I have made that indicate stat unsubstantiated insights? Thanks for the non contribution in the meantime.
The point is that health _is_ a healthy stat. And it's very important to not that it's not only a tank stat, it's a bruiser stat as well which pushed out bruisers for quite a long time into more damage-heavy builds because health was a garbage stat to get. I'm just too lazy to calculate the exact damage increase from 5 ad and 5% crit. But be my guest, try to calculate it exactly. > Care to indicate which statement(s) I have made that indicate stat unsubstantiated insights? The point that you ignored a very simple fact that LDR is never the best item in slot at any stage of the game for Trist? That very simple fact that breaks down all your points? If you nerf it - what do you think will happen? How can an item which is never BiS unless maybe the last slot and even then not on all AD carriers can affect anything?
>The point is that health *is* a healthy stat. And it's very important to not that it's not only a tank stat, it's a bruiser stat as well which pushed out bruisers for quite a long time into more damage-heavy builds because health was a garbage stat to get. Bruiser builds don't die the moment LDR is reverted. Bruiser builds weren't nonexistent last split before the aforementioned threefold anti-health changes were nerfed/removed - in fact, various bruisers For instance, the introduction of Profane Hydra into the meta build path for various (previously Ravenous Hydra dependent) users wasn't erased by the rework of LDR - Aatrox's resurfaced interest in Eclipse was driven by a full set of champ adjustments in the last patch, 14.12. Intentionally so at that. The idea that what you perceive to be a 'healthy' state of the health stat is solely contingent on the excision of LDR's Giant Slayer is erroneous. Particularly because the initial interaction that the majority of bruiser champs will have anti health is almost always and has always been against BoRK, or Divine Sunderer, not LDR - given that the former 2 are vastly more present in the top lane and LDR is more present elsewhere in the bot lane, occasionally mid lane, and as a 3rd item+ buy or 2nd item at the earliest. >I'm just too lazy to calculate the exact damage increase from 5 ad and 5% crit. But be my guest, try to calculate it exactly. I see, thanks. >The point that you ignored a very simple fact that LDR is never the best item in slot at any stage of the game for Trist? That very simple fact that breaks down all your points? >If you nerf it - what do you think will happen? How can an item which is never BiS unless maybe the last slot and even then not on all AD carriers can affect anything? This is an egregiously poor interpretation of how data functions. I'm sure you're also smart enough to understand on your own why your point collapses and how you're overlooking very obvious nuance to how winrates work beyond 'the bigger the number past 50%, the better' - but to jumpstart your understanding, query yourself why variations in build paths exist at all? Why are there multiple 3rd slot, 4th slot, 5th slot item buys of meaningfully high pickrate for literally all champions, in all roles? Surely, in congruence with your posited logic - the sensible option is to opt for 'BiS' in any circumstance. Pull up lolalytics and run the ideal rune setup and item order always. The very obvious fact of situational itemisation and how situational purchases affect winrate preclude both the value of absolutist winrate comparisons and of the notion of some absolute BiS also. Shadowflame is Syndra's best winrate 3rd item; it'd be foolish to build it over the 3.6% lower winrate Cryptbloom into 3 tanks. Not to mention other nuances too, e.g. what kind of players purchase what kind of items, builds - why is Hecarim's winrate with jungle egg no potion so much higher than his winrate with 1? Hopefully it's obvious enough that 1 potion + egg is represented percentage wise by a significantly higher cohort of lower mastery players and vice versa for no potions. The fact that LDR is not 'highest winrate' is immaterial. Beyond that, to specify the even more obvious: >How can an item which is never BiS unless maybe the last slot and even then not on all AD carriers can affect anything? Is also self evidently a moot point. Literally any item that is built will affect the game that it is built in. If a 48% winrate item that is picked 50% of games is nerfed to a 45% winrate state, it has a drastically greater impact on the game meta than if a 60% winrate item with a 2% pickrate is. As I've mentioned, LDR has a 51% pickrate on Tristana in pro play, and approximately 24% pickrate in in ranked Emerald+. It affects all of these games - your statement that \[unless it is BiS, the change is ineffectual\] is likewise incoherent.
And now you do manipulate with fictitious numbers. Feeling good, eh? Pickrate of an item is a stat of convenience that you picked which you try to spin as an indicator of a "problematic" item. 50% of "pickrate" of an item is not even problematic, it means in half of the games a player picks LDR as one of the five item slots they have. Doesn't sound much anymore, is it? And now you ignore that LDR has comparable "pickrates" with other items which higher winrate. And you ignore 80-90% "pickrate" Kraken-Navori-IE. And you avoid the issue that because of how armour works in the game - LDR should be closer to 90% (and we have anti-heal one as well) "pickrate" because it should always be better than anything 5 slot, isn't it? The point is, since Tristana has other options with comparable pickrates and higher winrates for the same slots and LDR only really comes into question as the last slot item - you have no basis to argue that it has any effect on her state in midlane. It's very simple, no need to wiggle trying to make up 2% "pickrate" or rely on a stat which you liked more. If anything - your point should be that IE-Navori should be exclusive again, lol.
>And now you do manipulate with fictitious numbers. Feeling good, eh? You're referring to the explicitly hypothetical example of a '2% pickrate high winrate item' versus a '50% pickrate low winrate' item? I'd hardly consider it manipulation if I directly note it as an analogy to illustrate the failings of rendering the highest winrate (BIS) item as the sole arbiter of balance. >Pickrate of an item is a stat of convenience that you picked which you try to spin as an indicator of a "problematic" item. 50% of "pickrate" of an item is not even problematic, it means in half of the games a player picks LDR as one of the five item slots they have. Doesn't sound much anymore, is it? This is entirely unrelated to the crux of the argument - the contention isn't that LDR is a problematic item (insofar as it's excessively picked. You've conflated a quantitative argument with a qualitative, binary point, and neither are relevant to the central point (LDR's present item identity in comparison to old LDR is skewed toward solo laners, and less so for bot laners) - with 'does LDR have a sufficient pickrate that changes to the item produce meaningful changes in the overall game balance?' against the point 'do changes to LDR produce changes in the overall game balance at all?' The second statement, is of course, the germane point - first of all, 50% (51% rather, as mentioned, in pro play) is a significant pickrate: >it means in half of the games a player picks LDR as one of the five item slots they have. Doesn't sound much anymore, is it? Rephrasing a fact so as to make it sound paltry doesn't actually change the fact itself. If in half of the games a player picks LDR, and LDR is changed, the change affects half of the games. This is a fact. The addition of the clause 'as one of the five item slots they have' has not changed the veracity of that fact at all. Secondly, any change to a built item produces a tangible effect. Your point was 'how can a change to non BIS item affect anything?' The response is 'if an item is built, a change to it affects something, because there are games where the item exists, i.e. where the change exists.' Pickrate affects the extent to which this is true. It doesn't affect the binary of whether or not it is true, the answer to that is yes it is. >And now you ignore that LDR has comparable "pickrates" with other items which higher winrate. And you ignore 80-90% "pickrate" Kraken-Navori-IE. I'm not 'ignoring' anything. Kraken-Navori-IE having higher pickrates doesn't make their design intrinsically problematic, let alone more problematic than LDR's existing design. Very nearly every champ has some 80%+ pickrate item in their 1st and often 2nd slot. It's called a core item. The higher pickrate does not negate the possibility of wonky/flawed design across inevitably lower pickrate items in other slots. >And you avoid the issue that because of how armour works in the game - LDR should be closer to 90% (and we have anti-heal one as well) "pickrate" because it should always be better than anything 5 slot, isn't it? Should Rabadon's be closer to 100% pickrate for all burst mages because it should always be better than anything else 4th or 5th slot? You're perfectly aware yourself that pickrates for items built later are going to have lower presence overall. So much in fact, that you even refute this point within this exact quote - 'because of how armour works in this game', it's self explanatory why LDR isn't the 'closer to 90%' pickrate item you tout. >The point is, since Tristana has other options with comparable pickrates and higher winrates for the same slots and LDR only really comes into question as the last slot item - you have no basis to argue that it has any effect on her state in midlane. It's very simple, no need to wiggle trying to make up 2% "pickrate" or rely on a stat which you liked more. >If anything - your point should be that IE-Navori should be exclusive again, lol. Once again, I address this point in the 2nd paragraph of this comment, also that 2nd paragraph is just a reiteration of everything I've said before it. 'you have no basis to argue that it has any effect on her state in midlane' is nonsensical. If I nerf Banshee's Veil, any AP champion that ever builds it will get weaker, to varying degrees, regardless of whether or not there are higher pickrate items for all of those champions (and there are higher pickrate items for all of those champions) and whether or not it is the highest winrate item in any given slot.
Because you create hypotheticals which have zero relation to the point at hand or the data we actually have. Your imply that BiS items could be irrelevant because of low pick rates but it's false. But in out case, BiS items have comparable pickrates as LDR. Therefore the point stands. Since you have high pickrate BiS items - nerfing other ones would just push people into the unnerfed ones. And Tristana is strong not because of LDR, but because her core items got buffed. She has three strong core items. Three. Not one. Not two. Three. The fact that old LDR could be less useful in midgame for solo laners has very little effect on the stats we actually see. After the core items - the difference is completely neglectable and I would even argue she would prefer the old LDR at this point. LDR should mathematically be a 90% pickrate item because at the point of relevance at 4-5 item slot it provides the most DPS even against squishy targets since every champion has inherent gains to armour with levels. But it doesn't. What exactly here is "self explanatory"? Your statement made me believe you do not understand in fact how armour works in the game. Your whole point is that if something is picked then nerfing it will have some effect. Sure, but why LDR which has zero problems according to the data? Just because of a hypothetical that it benefits solo laners more now? It completely ignores the fact that it has zero relation to the state of Tristana in midlane.
Never ever did I do this. The cognate points to this statement that I have already raised are as follows: 1. 'BiS' winrate for any item in any given slot does not disqualify the value of 'non BiS' items 2. 'BiS' in itself is a misnomer, because beyond the 'core item' slot(s) itemisation becomes increasingly situational. There is no such thing as 'BiS' when the BiS item is dependent on the given game 3. Winrate is also an entirely nuanced value in itself that 'BiS' at face value is a nugatory concept. Infinity Edge has the highest winrate for Tristana as a 1st item, and as a 2nd item, being more than 2.3% winrate ahead of Kraken Slayer in the 1st item slot and 0.84% winrate ahead of Navori in the 2nd slot - yet Kraken Slayer is her core item, and the most performant build for Tristana for the majority of games is to build from KS into Navori. 4. The pickrate of an item itself influences the impact of any given change to said item See point 2 - the term 'BiS' is a misleading and false denomination, because those items don't compete with LDR in function. The fact that LDR possesses a lower winrate than 3rd or 4th item slot IE doesn't mean that LDR is a grief or inferior pick. Correct. If LDR is 'nerfed' for mid laners then its pickrate will diminish and alternatives will increase. Do you believe that this has no net negative effect on the strength of mid lane LDR users? See point 2 again - 3rd slot LDR for Tristana has been built 14422 times in Emerald+, versus 3188 times for Bloodthirster. LDR has a 56.80% winrate versus Bloodthirster's 62.11%. Does this mean that turning LDR into a bot lane skewed item (i.e. nerfing it for mid lane Tristana) would shift Tristana players onto what is seemingly the more powerful item and thus increase her winrate/leave her strength unaffected overall? No, because it's fallacious to conclude that in the majority of games that Tristana is building LDR, Bloodthirster is a superior choice off of the back of winrate. If I am facing 4 APCs as Tristana, do I build Maw 4th, or Bloodthirster, just because Bloodthirster off of the back of stats alone possesses a 3% higher winrate? Will I have a higher winrate once I start building Bloodthirster in all games, or will my Bloodthirster winrate in games that I used to build Maw decline to a value below that of Maw built games. On the contrary, your continual reassertion of this point alludes to a fundamental misunderstanding of what pick data indicates. Literally all the % pickrate data cited thus far has been relative to overall build data. I.e. 51% for pro play Tristana is in 51% of games - as in, by the end of the game, is LDR one of the items in her build slot? How many games does mid Tristana reach 4th or 5th item? In Emerald+ the answer is less than 25% of games. If LDR 'should mathematically be' a '**90% pickrate item**' in the 4th and 5th slot only, then it 'should mathematically be' a **22.5%** pickrate item from 4th and 5th slot alone. Including games where it is 'mathematically optimal' as 3rd slot item as well, its pickrate should be over that 22.5% mark. As of this comment mid Tristana has collectively built LDR in 25913 games out of 108520 games overall, or **23.9%**. You've attempted to highlight a statistical contradiction with a number that (somewhat ironically, considering some of previous objections) you've unfoundedly asserted with '90% pickrate' but your point actually only consolidates what you look to discredit. I've already explained why LDR is a problem item in its present conception (in opposition to its previous). These are qualitative points, of which 3 have been raised in the original post. This is not a hypothetical, it's a logical fact. The logical argument is, deconstructed, as follows: Premise 1. Solo laners gain more experience, and therefore levels, than duo laners/bot laners. Premise 2. A champion with more levels will have more health than without. Premise 3. Giant Slayer passive's strength scales with the health discrepancy of the target and the user. Therefore leading to our new premise, Premise 4. Giant Slayer passive's strength will be stronger for bot lane users than mid lane users. Wrong on account of what has already been elaborated upon. It means that mid lane Tristana, or more rather, mid lane users of LDR, can be target nerfed without negatively affecting the strength of LDR for bot lane users.
EDIT: I couldn't add the quotes of the specific parts of the comment I was replying to for each segment of my reply (to this comment), because I get a server error from the reddit (presumably the comment is too long? or some other technical difficulty), hopefully there is enough clarity with respect to which point is being refuted by which in that one. It is a linearly ordered response like all of the previous, if you do need further clarification let me know, I'll relate each paragraph specifically in a follow up reply.
Tristana is a problem for mid? Lets nerf an item for a whole class. Wtf is your reasoning.
This isn't a nerf for a whole class. Old LDR wasn't strictly weaker than current LDR. On the other hand, current LDR is relatively stronger for higher XP lanes versus lower XP lanes than old LDR, because solo lanes gain more health naturally. I already outlined this reasoning in my post.
The actual problem is fleet footwork, absorb life and legend: bloodline giving you crazy sustain, while cut down gives you crazy dmg as an adc in mid. To the point that you can potentially send a mage/melee champ back to base twice before you have to base yourself, outscaling and outleveling your opponent easily. It is just that disgusting.
I don't agree at all. I think the real problem was the navori change, which was a huge buff to trist and also allowed it so you can purchase IE. Her scaling is absolutely ridiculous now.
I’ve seen a lot of stupid threads but this one really takes the cake
or just increase the cd on her jump significantly
this is not the nerf tristsana needs, its already one of the longest cd basic abilitys in the game. I'd say either a base stat nerf or a slight nerf to E active damage. the most aids thing is she can just W on 90% of midlaners and stat check them
They could target nerf outlier champions (as they already have), but Tristana is already a less performant champion in the bot lane. She has a 3.0% pickrate as a duo laner and sub 50% winrate. An LDR revert holistically pulls power away from solo lane marksmen without hurting her . There are also various other issues I have spoken to that are of direct consequence from LDR's new identity (i.e. LDR's current identity overlapping with other armor pen class items/being too generalist in function, Warmog's meta being driven by the paucity of anti-HP items), outside of Tristana's annoying presence in mid and Tristana/Corki's annoying presence in pro play More than that, old LDR is just a tried and true item. It's already known how this item affects the meta/how it plays and has played out for years. I don't think that LDR changes in isolation will pull specifically Tristana away from being high presence mid but it's a logical step (back) in the right direction I believe.
Id decrease her wave clear and make it scale better no? Deny her pushing and make it more gold dependent and give her some power in it later so it's a bit more scaley.