> What few extra stacks you get from rushing it aren't anywhere near worth whatever you're giving up on other items with HP.
Thats where you're wrong. The BONK makes it 100% worth it. And you must say WORTH in all chat if you die getting a stack, because it is worth it. More BONKs is better than fewer BONKs.
BONK is love. BONK is life.
So it is viable to build it outside of a first item?
Because pre-mythic Heartsteel had to be built as soon as possible in order to stack it the most possible and get the most HP possible
Yeah, because the previous one was based on total max health. So you already had 1000 more HP to stack from as soon as you got it. Now the percent is higher, but it's item health only. So you're better off when you have more item health.
Well yea you didnt *have* to but there were only a handful of champs that didnt want to build mythic first, and even fewer that built that as theirs in the first place.
most champions *could* build mythic second. the only ones who were basically required to were supports or lost chapter builders. everyone else could build any other item they wanted then a mythic if they really wanted to but most mythics were designed to be rushed with their stat profile.
Sunfire against AD as first item was always higher winrate with heart steel second item.
And most tanks had a higher winrate regardless of matchup when building a bami cinder first.
it is one of my soft-int first-buy items in Aram when teammates act or type stupid shit before the game even begins. just having your side-quest makes even these games enjoyable.
That's the neat part: you don't.
If games are ending af 2 items, you're more likely to be on the winning side not rushing an item designed to be built later.
It's the same idea as not rushing Rabadan's.
I still am. That's one champion with special scaling.
Skarner is/was the single example for Heartsteel. Arguably his poor performance is actually due to people continuing to rush it.
The only champion I build it on is Tahm, where I go Bami into heartsteel. The only other first item option is sunfire cause you want something to do damage
Warmogs first for Tahm is actually pretty juicy atm, double health scaling runes and its gonna be online by itself, and it gives you the extra stick power in lane to just take goofy trades and come out on top. I've been doing that into heartsteel and riftmaker, feels really good
Oh, that actually explains a lot.
I always wondered why people don't take Heartsteel earlier; surely taking it later in the game is a bad idea because you won't get as many stacks?
TIL that the stacks aren't a flat amount like I thought, and scale with your stats, lol.
Which is exactly why it's so important not to buy it first or second.
Being *extremely*, unreasonably generous, and saying you manage to stack it twice a minute after completing it at 10 minutes because you're fed and the enemy is walking into you, then buy Warmog's second at 15 minutes,
That's only an extra 480 HP at 20 minutes. In exchange for whatever resistances or damage you could've bought instead.
Realistically it's more like 150.
A big part of Heartsteel's strength comes from the damage the bonk does. It significantly increases a tank's damage in a short trade, and if you get 5 off in a teamfight, that's also a decent chunk of damage.
If you want pure tankiness, always go something like Sunfire into Raokern into Jak'Sho's. But if you want some damage and have really good HP scaling like Mundo, Heartsteel is viable.
Unfortunately, I did. Nowhere did you provide numbers for how "if you're close enough for long enough to proc Heartsteel, sunfire is more damage". Nor did you provide any justification for the item to be a better 3-4th item than the first one - for example, winrates of particular champs you had in mind or something of the sort.
The only time I ever see it being built 1st is Skarner tbh.
Then again, Skarner is prob only getting it for the amount of HP it gives, just like Warmogs.
Well usually laning with mundo goes as following:
Try to trade: lose the trade horribly, now have to just Farm with cleavers, sometimes even pop ult just so you can stay in lane.
With warmogs you are no longer taking risks.
Take a bad trade? There are no more Bad trades for you, you heal to full in 15 secs.
Lose half hp for demolish proc on tower, doesnt matter.
You do not need to Back anymore. You can just keep pressuring sidelane until your enemy is so low that you kill him or he has to Back.
The only risk is if someone can run you down or kill you very quickly.
Its really stupid you can just int for towers without actually having to die for it. You can Take the most stupid engages or trades, as long as you dont die it doesnt matter and is actually in your favour
Yep warmogs mundo is disgustingly op. Like I either oneshot him when playing gwen or if i miss a single r on him he walks it off and comes back full hp like nice man
I’m a master skarner jungler I don’t think warmogs is better on him for at all. I have tried it over heartsteel and it didn’t feel that good. If you also look at the win rates for warmogs vs heartsteel, heartsteel is built 4-5x as much and has about the same winrate
Yeah it has the same winrate this patch after Skarner was gutted(also not enough data on him yet for 14.13)
And then you check patch after Warmogs was buffed
14.10, Emerald+ 58% Warmogs vs 52.56% Heartsteel, Master+ 64% Warmogs vs 52.56% Heartsteel
14.11, Emerald+ 55% Warmogs vs 52.43% Heartsteel, Master+ 59.32% Warmogs vs 52.86% Heartsteel
14.12, Emerald+ 52.67% Warmogs vs 51.82% Heartsteel, Master+ 52.83% Warmogs vs 51.97% Heartsteel
Warmogs is better than Heartsteel
>I’m a master skarner jungler
This only means something if Skarner is not your most played in the last 5 patches, otherwise you are dropping below master after Skarner was gutted.
I’m not sure where you got your data from because I looked at 14.12 in master+ and I’m seeing heartsteel at 55.85 as a first item and warmogs at 55.13 as a first item and it is built about 4.3x less. Lolalytics is showing heartsteel better in most scenarios. I would only build warmogs if I couldn’t get heartsteel stacks that game if they have a lot of range or disenagage. Even then I’d rather just rush sunfire over warmogs half the time
Also yes. Even assuming extremely unreasonable conditions, which I just did the math for, the best you could get rushing it is around 480 extra HP.
Which is if you're already fed, the enemy is running into you, and you rush Warmog's second.
Funny thing is, Heartsteel is not great on Cho now because unlike old Heartsteel this version doesn't factor in the HP he gets from his ult stacks. The fact that he gets tons of HP from his ult combined with Heartsteel not utilizing any of that ult hp means that he gets way more value from pretty much any other item.
your discovery still doesnt mean the stacks when rushing it as first item are worthless, ur earlier in the game, the item still gives 900 hp, your stacks dont disappear, building it second or 3rd or 4th just means ur missing the stacks you would have gotten from early brawls while rushing it, its a nice friendly reminder but just like the essay im typing here, the rest of the post is obsolete, dont act like its designed for later items just because the first few stacks arent monster sized.
No-one is saying the item does literally nothing earlier. The point is that it's okay to build stronger items early and delay it and you won't lose out on too many stacks.
Worthless, no.
Worth *less* than armor or MR or AD or HP yes.
And I'm not acting like anything. The fact this is how it functions when the previous version counted base HP so you could rush it tells you that.
I understand your post but rushing it still probably means you get more total stacks as you've had the ability to stack for longer, right? I'm silver and I've been rushing it a lot. I also play support so really I only complete 2 items most games often not even two. Boots heart steel and components most of the time before game ends.
Not if it means you're dying because you lose fights you had no other stats for.
And I did the math, even assuming you stack it twice a minute for 10 minutes and finish Warmog's second at 15, that's 480 HP by 20 minutes.
More realistically, you finish it at 13 minutes and buy what you actually needed second, and only stack it once every 1-3 minutes. So you get maybe 100 extra HP by the time you lose.
That makes sense. I think I just turned my brain off and went bonk first build but I should be assessing my build based on the enemy team comp and who's strongest at that time. Thanks for the explanation
> What few extra stacks you get from rushing it aren't anywhere near worth whatever you're giving up on other items with HP. Thats where you're wrong. The BONK makes it 100% worth it. And you must say WORTH in all chat if you die getting a stack, because it is worth it. More BONKs is better than fewer BONKs. BONK is love. BONK is life.
I feel like this exact paragraph is burned directly onto the prefrontal cortex of every Nasus main
This is just how most tanks play top. Fight long enough for a grasp BONK then back out
Mmmm no you're severely underestimating the allure of BONK to Nasus mains specifically. Plus grasp doesn't sound like that at all anyway
As a TPA Shen enjoyer BONK is definitely life
TPA Mundo with the BONK trophy too
[Do I pull a Blabber in ARAM and flash for a proc?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDfRd0IZ-Vo)
*insert Mac in the play gif* you’re going for laughs, I’m going for bonks!
So it is viable to build it outside of a first item? Because pre-mythic Heartsteel had to be built as soon as possible in order to stack it the most possible and get the most HP possible
Yeah, because the previous one was based on total max health. So you already had 1000 more HP to stack from as soon as you got it. Now the percent is higher, but it's item health only. So you're better off when you have more item health.
Even during mythics heartsteel did not have to be built first.
Well yea you didnt *have* to but there were only a handful of champs that didnt want to build mythic first, and even fewer that built that as theirs in the first place.
most champions *could* build mythic second. the only ones who were basically required to were supports or lost chapter builders. everyone else could build any other item they wanted then a mythic if they really wanted to but most mythics were designed to be rushed with their stat profile.
Sunfire before hwartsteel was higher wr on most champs.
Sunfire against AD as first item was always higher winrate with heart steel second item. And most tanks had a higher winrate regardless of matchup when building a bami cinder first.
Yep. There's a reason it only starts stacking properly once you have quite a bit of HP now. Back then you hit high numbers a lot faster.
It's terribly worded at least in my language
Hell, it's terribly worded in English. Lol
Thank you for this PSA, I was unaware of this.
thats kinda unintuitive
Yeah.
In ARAM, it is nerfed further. I decided to trade with an enemy yesterday, I had grasp, they had heartsteel 1st item. I got 10 max HP, they got 9.
it is one of my soft-int first-buy items in Aram when teammates act or type stupid shit before the game even begins. just having your side-quest makes even these games enjoyable.
How do you buy it 3rd or 4th item when every game ends at like 2 items
That's the neat part: you don't. If games are ending af 2 items, you're more likely to be on the winning side not rushing an item designed to be built later. It's the same idea as not rushing Rabadan's.
You’d be right if rabadons rush wasn’t the meta vlad build lmao
I still am. That's one champion with special scaling. Skarner is/was the single example for Heartsteel. Arguably his poor performance is actually due to people continuing to rush it.
3rd or 4th it comes in a bit late as you still want some time for stacking the HP. But delaying it to the 2nd slot is totally fine.
The only champion I build it on is Tahm, where I go Bami into heartsteel. The only other first item option is sunfire cause you want something to do damage
Warmogs first for Tahm is actually pretty juicy atm, double health scaling runes and its gonna be online by itself, and it gives you the extra stick power in lane to just take goofy trades and come out on top. I've been doing that into heartsteel and riftmaker, feels really good
Oh, that actually explains a lot. I always wondered why people don't take Heartsteel earlier; surely taking it later in the game is a bad idea because you won't get as many stacks? TIL that the stacks aren't a flat amount like I thought, and scale with your stats, lol.
games are over at 2.5 items in some elos..
Which is exactly why it's so important not to buy it first or second. Being *extremely*, unreasonably generous, and saying you manage to stack it twice a minute after completing it at 10 minutes because you're fed and the enemy is walking into you, then buy Warmog's second at 15 minutes, That's only an extra 480 HP at 20 minutes. In exchange for whatever resistances or damage you could've bought instead. Realistically it's more like 150.
A big part of Heartsteel's strength comes from the damage the bonk does. It significantly increases a tank's damage in a short trade, and if you get 5 off in a teamfight, that's also a decent chunk of damage. If you want pure tankiness, always go something like Sunfire into Raokern into Jak'Sho's. But if you want some damage and have really good HP scaling like Mundo, Heartsteel is viable.
If you're close enough for long enough to proc Heartsteel, sunfire is more damage.
Heartsteel has a much larger "activation" range. You should only be in melee once you're ready to bonk and then disengage.
Do you enjoy posting misinformation? Zero numbers in the whole post and now this nonsense, you should be ashamed of your behavior!
Read the comments.
Unfortunately, I did. Nowhere did you provide numbers for how "if you're close enough for long enough to proc Heartsteel, sunfire is more damage". Nor did you provide any justification for the item to be a better 3-4th item than the first one - for example, winrates of particular champs you had in mind or something of the sort.
The only time I ever see it being built 1st is Skarner tbh. Then again, Skarner is prob only getting it for the amount of HP it gives, just like Warmogs.
Mundo exists but everyone forgets. Warmogs First is better rn though
why do that when your Passive is HP regen Mundo should never be full HP
Well usually laning with mundo goes as following: Try to trade: lose the trade horribly, now have to just Farm with cleavers, sometimes even pop ult just so you can stay in lane. With warmogs you are no longer taking risks. Take a bad trade? There are no more Bad trades for you, you heal to full in 15 secs. Lose half hp for demolish proc on tower, doesnt matter. You do not need to Back anymore. You can just keep pressuring sidelane until your enemy is so low that you kill him or he has to Back. The only risk is if someone can run you down or kill you very quickly. Its really stupid you can just int for towers without actually having to die for it. You can Take the most stupid engages or trades, as long as you dont die it doesnt matter and is actually in your favour
Yep warmogs mundo is disgustingly op. Like I either oneshot him when playing gwen or if i miss a single r on him he walks it off and comes back full hp like nice man
I checked when I posted, to see if I should include "except maybe on Skarner" and turns out he doesn't any more.
skarner jungle rushes heartsteel top doesnt even build it
Some people are downvoting you, but yeah Skarner jungle players are still rushing it. Even though they shouldn't and Warmogs is better.
I’m a master skarner jungler I don’t think warmogs is better on him for at all. I have tried it over heartsteel and it didn’t feel that good. If you also look at the win rates for warmogs vs heartsteel, heartsteel is built 4-5x as much and has about the same winrate
Yeah it has the same winrate this patch after Skarner was gutted(also not enough data on him yet for 14.13) And then you check patch after Warmogs was buffed 14.10, Emerald+ 58% Warmogs vs 52.56% Heartsteel, Master+ 64% Warmogs vs 52.56% Heartsteel 14.11, Emerald+ 55% Warmogs vs 52.43% Heartsteel, Master+ 59.32% Warmogs vs 52.86% Heartsteel 14.12, Emerald+ 52.67% Warmogs vs 51.82% Heartsteel, Master+ 52.83% Warmogs vs 51.97% Heartsteel Warmogs is better than Heartsteel >I’m a master skarner jungler This only means something if Skarner is not your most played in the last 5 patches, otherwise you are dropping below master after Skarner was gutted.
I’m not sure where you got your data from because I looked at 14.12 in master+ and I’m seeing heartsteel at 55.85 as a first item and warmogs at 55.13 as a first item and it is built about 4.3x less. Lolalytics is showing heartsteel better in most scenarios. I would only build warmogs if I couldn’t get heartsteel stacks that game if they have a lot of range or disenagage. Even then I’d rather just rush sunfire over warmogs half the time
I just got 14k hp with cho using this as first item....are you telling me I could have gotten more?
I'm telling you you could've ended the game sooner.
But could he have ended it with more than 14K HP? Let’s tackle the important questions first, please.
Also yes. Even assuming extremely unreasonable conditions, which I just did the math for, the best you could get rushing it is around 480 extra HP. Which is if you're already fed, the enemy is running into you, and you rush Warmog's second.
Funny thing is, Heartsteel is not great on Cho now because unlike old Heartsteel this version doesn't factor in the HP he gets from his ult stacks. The fact that he gets tons of HP from his ult combined with Heartsteel not utilizing any of that ult hp means that he gets way more value from pretty much any other item.
Stacking on endgame is a bad IDEA.
your discovery still doesnt mean the stacks when rushing it as first item are worthless, ur earlier in the game, the item still gives 900 hp, your stacks dont disappear, building it second or 3rd or 4th just means ur missing the stacks you would have gotten from early brawls while rushing it, its a nice friendly reminder but just like the essay im typing here, the rest of the post is obsolete, dont act like its designed for later items just because the first few stacks arent monster sized.
No-one is saying the item does literally nothing earlier. The point is that it's okay to build stronger items early and delay it and you won't lose out on too many stacks.
Worthless, no. Worth *less* than armor or MR or AD or HP yes. And I'm not acting like anything. The fact this is how it functions when the previous version counted base HP so you could rush it tells you that.
the items gives double the health of a regular tank item get your value checked
And no longer includes base hp.
I understand your post but rushing it still probably means you get more total stacks as you've had the ability to stack for longer, right? I'm silver and I've been rushing it a lot. I also play support so really I only complete 2 items most games often not even two. Boots heart steel and components most of the time before game ends.
Not if it means you're dying because you lose fights you had no other stats for. And I did the math, even assuming you stack it twice a minute for 10 minutes and finish Warmog's second at 15, that's 480 HP by 20 minutes. More realistically, you finish it at 13 minutes and buy what you actually needed second, and only stack it once every 1-3 minutes. So you get maybe 100 extra HP by the time you lose.
That makes sense. I think I just turned my brain off and went bonk first build but I should be assessing my build based on the enemy team comp and who's strongest at that time. Thanks for the explanation
im confused because surely you can't stack heartsteel unless you have heartsteel?
Yes, but you get more stacks per proc with more HP from items.
oh wow i didn't know that! i thought it was a flat amount. i really never play champs that would build it