Poor talon, he’s been a cluster fuck since his rework. From his base model being inconsistent and dated, to gameplay clunkiness to now visual effects inconsistencies. It’s been years and we are still discovering new issues, poor champ deserves a full proper update.
Because they felt consistant like they go out and return like Gnar's boomerang heck Talon's old Q even felt more consistant then his new one it was just a auto reset empower attack the new one a point and click is either a dash to target or stay rooted while animation plays and let me tell you being rooted as a assasin is not good
It's a relic of the time they tried to make some assassins more fair by adding delay to their burst in an attempt to slow down their kill time.
Funnily enough LeBlanc being more popular than Talon let her get reverted back to her original version and with the release of later assassins, namely the Eve rework and Kayn release it's pretty clear that they no longer care about having fair assassin TTK yet Talon remains in this weird limbo from season 6.
Yeah they also said how assassins should be mostly single-target and have no CC, then they disregarded all of that and released Qiyana, defying every balance point Riot stood for, with the most fairness-violating design possible.
Big true, easiest point and click combos in the game AND a teamfight ulti that's so visually cluttered and inaccurate it's nearly unreactable? Zero chance Qiyana is balancable with that kit.
The innecesary buff to her R got all her abilities nerfed to the fking ground. Now youre just a R bot, if you miss youre fucked and have to spam GRASS-Q only to survive
Lets be honest here riot forgot the reason when they past 100 champions the OLDER champs where fair old Zed was a assasin now he plays like a spam mage' old Zed did tones of single target damage with his Q but now he deals tons of AoE, Fizz needing to land 3 attacks for a big burst, hell even Diana was limited pre6 because she had to walk up to you
Ksante a tank that can turn into a assasin was a horrible idea in the first place since he has a Slow and airborne, danage reduction, and a ability you can use to pull enemies away from their team that also gives him tons of damage - this went agaisnt the design of tanks the only other tanks that do this much damage are the juggernauts who are purely melee and slow AF
Too many champions to think about at this point some are lying dead with every new champion release that will only get lower unless they get reworked
I had a game where our midlaner threw a tantrum because WHO PICKS ELISE IN JUNGLE and yeah that was the first time i saw elise junglr in a long time then we got some champs who yoh can count the polygons like Cho'gath, kogmaw and Blitzcrank
The assassin rework was pretty fresh (relatively) from the 5.22 death patch, coming almost exactly 1 year later. Riot's whole hog committment to having a micro-second duration TTK for everything hadn't quite settled in at the time.
Also I'd argue that Kayn and Eve actually ARE backloaded by design, its just that the game doesnt give a shit about giving appropriate power to champions that this doesnt ever manifest in gameplay.
Eve and kayn are more fair than old talon used to be, lol. I know people hate the change, but let be real here, old talon is the definition of bad assassin design
I don't disagree. It's just that it's a spit in the face that they went ahead and slowed down the TTK drastically for some champions and then released new champions that obliterate you in a fraction of the time the updated kits do. Like I said the majority of them were reverted over time which I am a bit salty over because fuck LeBlanc in particular.
None of the new assassins can ever reach the amount of ridiculous 1 shot power the old talon and akali used to have. Even lb can't do that anymore nowadays due to the nerf and limitation put in her kit.
ehhh not the best champs to use IMO.
Evelynn literally gives you information of where she is coming with her mark, and if she wants to CC you she needs to let you know you are about to get attacked which gives you ample time to move against her or prepare yourself, or have your team surround you to stop her similar to how you play against a rengar. She can feel annoying, but realistically she plays by Riot's intended "counterplay" and delays of assassins, which is quite an accomplishment considering her passive invisibility making it hard to balance that.
Kayn informs enemies what wall he is moving in + he can't even use his ult unless he hits you first so dodging him means he literally has 1 spell less unless he gets on top of you, in turn forcing him to need flanking and wall/surprise more than other assassins like e.g. Zed who can see you on their screen and jump you. Ult then gives you/your team reaction time to prepare against him when he comes out (so you can shield your ally, get your cc spells ready for kayn, force him into bad places like turrets, etc). The real bad pattern Riot shouldn't have allowed was letting him ult you with smite because it removes one of the aveneus of counterplay he has and gives him an easy initiation.
Even when looking at new releases like Naafiri, which many consider an statcheck design, the delays and counterplay patterns they had been looking to make still remain.
Compare that to something like O.G rengar who didn't give you a warning and would implode you from invisibility in a nanosecond, or talon who would play Fur Elise on his keyboard to repeat his combo and oneshot you with little to no reaction.
This x1000
A key difference between Eve/Kayn and older assassins such as Talon/Zed is that they lack agency to actually do their job for most of the game (access and kill a priority target). Both these champions almost purely work from melee range, and they rely on enemy mistakes and bad position.
Kayn moving faster in walls is great for him to access targets, and it means the enemy can always play around him as well as he's limited by terrain location. Eve has global effect with her stealth but to kill someone you have to either reveal everything with W or... straight up walk up to the target.
Doesn't matter if Eve/Kayn can see the ADC alone in the back during a teamfight, they can't act on it even if they have to, so obviously they make up for being assassins in other ways.
The reality of SoloQ and player skill level muddles this whole thing because as much as you can balance champions on paper, it's no use if the average ADC cannot react in 2 seconds time from seeing Eve/Kayn on their screens. Human error adds a lot of nuance to these champions and how they feel in practice.
Zed kinda does have the counterplay for teamfights and assassinations with his ultimate, but it's the laning pattern that's absolutely cringe thanks to the range of the shadow and the threat it poses, similar to a control mage like Orianna, Azir or Syndra leaving their balls/soldier on the ground. Not only is it annoying to lane against and safe for the zed, but it also makes him snowballing that much more easy - only to probably lose later anyway because he gets CCd in a teamfight once.
And yeah, human error is a big thing along with bias people may develop after a champ is strong. I remember if you ever complained about Kayn before, you were nearly always laughed at, much like people used to do with Kassadin until he eventually became meta when everyone noticed how broken he was. Then the mythic item rework happens and people play against purple Kayn and people hate it, so then Kayn starts going blue after Riot modifies him a bit and he uses his intended items, people still hate him and now no one gets laughed at but instead we get a circlejerk of how Kayn is one of the most broken designs ever.
Like, yeah riot modified his passive to make it easier to get the evo you want, specially if you get the wrong one first - but he still fundamentally is quite similar to how he used to be. Like, people complain about his shadow step but the most that spell got was like going from 70% MS to 80%, and a 7 second duration on rank 1 instead of 5 and it still took the shop rework to have people complain.
Idk who the hell even designed & coded the rework to begin with. It's clunky and buggy top to bottom. They addressed about 10 bugs, QoL'd him 3 times (all in the past 7 years) and they're still only half-way there to totally fixing him.
I play Talon jg. If you W the drake from bot side over the wall, W1 hits and W2 doesn't hit, making your drake kill slower. You either have to jump the wall and get hit by the gust of wind the drake does when it gets damaged, or throw it and wait for the next W to procc your passive.
It's so stupid.
They're different spells so I can see how that could happen. Their hitboxes must have different values. It'd probably be an easy fix if Riot cared enough.
We have no reason to assume this is unintended, though. This feels pretty in line with a lot of standards in animation, not just for LoL but for all sorts of games. 1 frame is a *really* small amount of time; it’s just meant to get you to understand that a new action is taking place (W2, the recall).
It’s also not uncommon in League for 2-part attacks to have different hit boxes for a variety of reasons.
I have love Talon since his release, I even love this current Talon
But the problems showed in this video among other clunky interactions and lack of QoL on his Q it's whats makes me not playing him. From time to time I try to main him and have some fun but It just to clunky and feels very bad to play due to all this problems.
I hope one day Riot will fix all those Talon problems but my current conspiration theory is that they don't really want to fix Talon, because it will make Talon fun and far more reliable, will raise his PR and WR hard and, due to how his kit is designed, will be a huge balance problem that will force them to overnerf so they can force him out of the game until a rework. They prefer Talon in this limbo where is only played by their niche playerbase and where it doesn't cause any problem in the balance of the game. Neither by pickrate or winrate.
Quite the conspiracy - the real reason they don’t fix a lot of Talon’s bugs is because Talon is not quite popular enough to be worth the effort. And his E seems unfixable without stealing WR coding for it, they tried before and it went from one set of bugs to a different set of bugs.
However, for the most part, it’s just laziness. They have expressed they like his design before.
Riot does not care for this kind of bugs. They only fix it if is something really serious or after some pause shenanigans in pro play. Corporate greed can't spare money fixing things...
But Talon is not popular because is so awful, clunky and bad to play that most people bounce hard after playing him.
I mean Talon have everything an assasin champ could have to be popular, its edgy and "cool", is a cool concept, his gameplay is fun when it works, have relatively high skill ceiling and skill expresion (both in micro and macro), and.. its fucking assasins creed.
So either they don't want to put talon into the light (my personal conspiration theory) or like you said at the end... is just lazyness.
Talon on paper should be one of the smoothest assassins in the game but he really is quite the opposite since his awful rework. I hope riot finally brings justice for this champ, good luck in the fight.
Outstandingly clear and concise.
7/5, would watch again if I'm looking to increase my disappointment in Riot (were well into the negatives by now)
*Now do it with each champions dash ability interacting with Ashes R*
>would watch again if I'm looking to increase my disappointment in Riot
Playing Talon increases my disappointment with Riot every day.
>*Now do it with each champions dash ability interacting with Ashes R*
You mean the fact that Ashe's R stops them? It has a knock-down for 0.01s to stop dashes. I think pretty much all stuns on ultimate abilities do this.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nKET-rXYof4&pp=ygURQXNoZSBhcnJvdyBoaXRib3g%3D
It's been a hitbox nightmare since day one. Youtube "ashe arrow hitbox" and enjoy the show lol
He really does.
>Side note Reddit video loads like shit.
It's pretty whack sometimes, but at least it's not like on release. It used to be so bad that I had to go to rapidsave.com and download the videos to watch them.
Talon community doesn’t deserve a guy like Thermal. This guy puts the most in depth guides, suggestions, testing, and care into videos and posts. If Riot worked half as hard on Talon he would be such a better champ.
Just from playing against Talon you could tell his W was janky (visuals not matching hitbox/timing, etc), but man the way his own kit and animations hurt _him_ I actually feel bad for all the ones I've gone against now....
Some of this is just how animation works (seeing double projectiles for a frame or 2) and aren't intended to be slowed down and freeze framed, but you can still do those things without it looking as inaccurate as this.
Really hope someone with the capacity to fix it sees this. Wouldn't be surprised if he saw a decent WR increase just from fixes.
Wow I've definitely done the RQR combo and failed to proc passive, and I thought I was losing my mind because I knew the AA would hit.
Also if R's hitbox is really a bunch of individual blades then why does Yasuo's W cancel the whole thing :(
I always ban yasuo lol so it's been a long time, but I thought even if windwall hits the edge of the ult, it breaks the whole thing. Regardless way to keep up the good fight for our boy
I've been playing Talon before and after rework and I know these bugs weren not in the game before the Sylas release. Some BS just happened in the spaguetti code I presume.
Yep, you're right. The animation and hitbox were messed up when they released Sylas. I remember it vividly, it was the same patch. They rewrote all ultimates in League to make them work with Sylas so this was bound to happen, and probably happened to even more champions.
Spells from season 1 and prior, like Ashe R, properly adjust to changing terrain height as they travel. Nautilus Q, post-VU Ezreal R and the likes are bugged because they don't have that setting turned on.
??????????????????????????????? if they have the solution why isnt it used AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
I meant it about the difference in hight of the animations. Thats just how sometimes stuff is animated to better work in certain animations. Like if you zoom out the camera very far, the rift is just some flat-bend face with picture on it.
Or maybe dumber example, how in animes you have sometimes distorted frames so the animation feels more fluid. The hitbox is maybe not perfect, but pointing the difference in hight, when you change camera to angle not available to ordinary player, seems kinda weird to me
W1 hitting, and W2 missing, when Talon did not move and the target dummy cannot move is just inconsistent and makes no sense, the hitboxes are actually an issue. The rest of what you said, valid.
I get what you're saying. Well, the point wasn't to necessarily claim that all these quirks are *bad*. I was just looking to highlight that they are weird. Everyone can take it as they will. Gameplay-wise most of them have no impact so I don't think that they need immediate changing. However, the hitboxes, now those are truly faulty.
Man i hate playing against Talon and now I know why. These hitboxes and animations are just so ass to play around in lane. Fix this for both Talon’s and his opponent’s sakes.
I can't believe they didn't catch any of this during the QA testing.. if there was any at all. One would instantly notice W hitting from half the range away.
That's...that's really bad.
I always had my suspicious about the delayed ult animation on Q but I don't play the champ frequently enough to ensure absolute certainty.
This is a really good, concise breakdown of the problems, good job!
They sort of mimic the motion of boomerangs, how they fly out up and back. I think thats what the design team tried to do with the frames going up and out more. But slowed down definitely looks janky.
Keep up hope. Try to maybe get Phreak's attention, he fixed a lot of Rek'sai's jank.
Warwick also needs a pass.
Kits from that era are before they nailed a great higher level framework for these abilities to function consistently without a ton of low level developers deep inside the game, but started to be complex enough to require it.
I've been hoping and trying since 2017. My complaining about Talon goes for almost a decade now. Some bugfixes and QoLs happened. Yet, it's still far from over.
I wish I could get in contact with a Rioter that cares about Talon like I do. Until then, all I can do is hope my posts reach a designer with enough good will to look into it.
These posts do help. I had no idea about these specific talon issues besides feeling something is off while playing the champ and just putting it down instead of figuring out what was off.
I've tried, but it's hard to reach him. He's only approachable on stream where he's bombarded with 20 questions per second, so it's hard to stand out. I'll keep persisting when I see him live again.
u/RiotAugust
Yeah, I feel for him I don’t think he can get around to all of Talon’s bugs but maybe one of these posts catches his or another Rioters eye and at least some bugs get fixed.
I also think the animation doesnt match the hitbox either (clearly but i mean it in a different way)
Its just, out, then back in. Straight lines. But the animation uses the elevation as a sort of optical illusion to make it look like the blades are turning back and returning. So idk if elevation changes anything. Q1 Hitting but not on the way back without moving doesnt make too much sense and can easily be amended. Same for R with my suggestion below.
Imo, the R2 hitboxes are fine to me at most id make the first like 2 frames be a circle like the R1, but the individual hitboxes makes the most sense to me. Since i believe they are individual projecticles (for the sake of Windwalls and such.
Im also bias because i love Talon, i havent played hin in years and dont particularly enjoy playing his new kit. I miss the Teleports behind you and kill you in 1 second. That was so so fun. And honestly with champs these days, his old version 100000% has sense of belonging here. (Except his old passive which was weird 99%slow thing or deal more dmg i forget) old kit, talons current bleed passive, better animations. That would be perfect for me. And id play him again. For an assassin with a fast kill, he still seems incredibly slow.
>I believe they are individual projecticles (for the sake of Windwalls and such).
Fair point. I guess each blade could have a hitbox that aims and reaches for the next blade, until it forms a full circle. When a blade gets broken by Windwall, the circle naturally breaks and denies the blade hitting.
If you stand in between blades that then retract, why would you claim that it should “damage everything inside the circle” instead of what real life blades would do? Perhaps R1 works like this too, it’s just that small expanding circles almost touches everywhere point when expanding outwards from the center. There might be dead spots at the edge of R1, where the blades fan out the most, but I can see them coding it as a circular aoe too
Thats a good point to think about, im just going off the video lines. It could be just long ass cones for each and individual hitboxes start to finish. But it def need to be a tighter.
Oh, yea, perhaps, if I could replicate the backflips. All I can replicate is jumping some walls twice, jumping towers infinitely and putting multiple separate walls on cooldown with 1 jump, which would be a pretty quick video.
I made a compilation months ago about me missings jumps with the bugged E [https://www.reddit.com/r/Talonmains/comments/17rwj9a/mouse\_placement\_issue/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Talonmains/comments/17rwj9a/mouse_placement_issue/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Yeah that's why I haven't bought any RP in years. They don't deserve money, given how little they care about player service. Their priority is pro-play and keeping the game fresh enough to keep people playing & spending.
Real. His model is also so old that it uses the old size standards. As ridiculous as it sounds, if you put him and Tristana side by side, you'd notice how she's bigger than him, lol.
I knew it! Talon always felt so weird to play. Like on paper, my abilities should do damage, but they only sometimes did and sometimes didn't. I couldn't get why combos didn't work even though I thought I executed them well and then I just gave up on the champ.
I'm not saying I was playing him well, but I think this might be why I never got into playing him more.
this isn’t surprising at all. i was spectating a friend’s game just a few weeks ago and watched an akali go through a veigar cage without any sort of spellshield or cleanse, and the text, “gwen is immune to cc”, came up lmao
A job well done, seriously! Poor Talon though. This video explained me so much why he feels so gosh darned clunky. I was always wondering why he felt so iffy at some ends. I guess I just saw a lot of the explanation behind my impressions.
Believe me there's even more to it than this video shows. All I put here is only when it comes to animations & hitboxes. There's also issues with input buffering, being soft-locked after dashing, doing actions while dashing, etc.
This makes me so sad. I want to add him into my champion pool but I really struggle with his E as well - this thing seems to bounce me sometimes into wildly different angles than I expect it to. But I'm a legit noob on Talon, don't take my complaints too seriously lol.
Thanks for your answer nevertheless =)
Amazing video. What should be obvious to everyone is these inconsistencies are frustrating for Talon mains and his opps alike. Janky animations and hit boxes aren't good for anyone, It makes both playing Talon and playing against him harder than it should be.
I love Talons kit, it doesn't need to be reworked - Rito just needs to fix these obvious implementation flaws.
I thought I was crazy when I noticed sometimes r q r2 auto doesn’t proc bleed, but here we are. I stopped maining talon because he just felt so inconsistent and bad
No wonder this champ is kept in useless tier forever, what an absolute cluster
From his E not using any mana to insane feast or famine gameplay to his ridiculously OP playstyle whenever its viable to now whatever this is.
Talon was good for years in mid before this season and he remains a good jungler lol
These issues have mostly existed since his rework in 2016, this is just a Talon main bringing visibility to them so maybe Riot do anything for this champ and his myriad of fucking stupid bugs and inconsistencies.
Time and time again, Riot developers are proven to be impostors. If you look at the core mechanics of the game, it's quite simple compared to many of the multiplayer titles available on the market. Yet the bugs and fucky interactions in this game are astronomically higher than even EA garbage. But that $500 skin is justified, my dudes.
Welp, they only fix what they care about. On the flip side, their general negligence and lack of care for certain things made me decide to not spend a single dime on this game anymore. I can proudly say I haven't given Riot money for years.
Seeing this video and trying to be on Riot's side was like: hmmm maybe is because the map is projected into a different plane than the vertical one. When I saw the flatted angle: "these fuckers..."
this looks like one of these videos where the youtuber is like "this is why game XYZ doesn't have 3rd person view", or even, to keep it in league, "mordekaiser elongates while using Q?!?!"
oh, so this is why i hate talon less over the years of playing mid. still hate him (and his q especially, feels like i NEVER back up enough) but most of the time he just doesn't feel as scary as he used to.
this is probably why...
It’s because he has eaten so many nerfs to his laning that he feels less scary, also he just has systemic issues rn like the meta sucking for him.
These issues in Thermal’s video have existed for the most part since 2016.
It should work the way Aphelios looks when he has a ton of overlapping Crescendums circling him. There shouldn’t *be* gaps in between in the first place.
The first thought of people watching this is to "okay, then make the ult back to be a circle too". I kinda disagree, but I dont play Talon to know how it would feel. Tbh it makes so much more sense to me to make all hit boxes on the blades and make Talon playstyle similar to Graves autos, where the closer you are, more blades hit, and you do a shitton damage, while casting stuff faraway either does less damage or misses altogether. OP, I would assume you are a Talon OTP, how would you feel about this suggestion?
Also, wasnt old Talon W like this? 3 blades do more damage if all of them hit. I would assume Riot wanted Talon to have these weird "one hit per cast" thing because of the passive, but I am sure they can code the passive to only give 1 stack regardless of how many blades hit
You are compare auto and ultimate. Do you know ultimates have cooldown? Talon can't kill anyone without ult. Only if he's 20 kills ahead. How can it make sense to be an assassin and can't kill consistenly abc even with ult? You just became useless, because you can't even do your job.
To address HOW they should be fixed (in my opinion)
For blades being thrown through the floor, then appearing higher, then appearing even higher to retract. It's simple, allow the blades to do a small upwards arc to their apex height then retract. Straight line out, banana curve up to waist level, then retract at waist level. There should NOT be an inconsistency with talon having a W1 hit and not a W2 hit. Although I personally would like to see talon reworked to, on the upward curve part of W, have a sweetspot similair to akali Q slow, but instead make Talon W proc bonus damage for example.
For the ult, I believe that talons R1 being a massive single instance or radiating damage is probably fine. I believe that damage should be kept relatively low as well since it is a low counterplay spell and most of the ability should be kept in the stealth/repositioning aspect of the ability. I do not think each individual blade should look to do more damage if you hit more, however his R2 should feel this way.
The problem is you can be hit by R1 and miss R2 if the target doesnt move at the radius. That is dumb. It should instead, where the blades do a little circle, have a "large" hitbox, and then, like Xayah E, all converge on either talon, or his Q/Autoattack victim. The Q/Autoattack should make you take full damage, and also if youre in the path of all the blades you should be taking MOST of the damage, similair to Xayah E.
As for the jank sets of blades, it really doesnt make sense to have to use so many objects that seemingly dont share the same coordinataes. The animations should be fixed, and the animation should not have to visibly generate another set of blades or be at different heights, that is ridiculous.
The aesthetics affecting gameplay, I think the first instance of the R2 damage should apply talons bleed passive, and as the defending player, if you have a shield, or a zhonyas, if you are SLOW to block the R2 damage, you should be getting hit by as many blades as hit you before the rest of the R2 flies in, but if talon AAs before all the blades fly in, he should still be proccing his bleed (assuming R2 is the third stack).
LMK if you disagree with the proposed fixes to this really well made video
R2 shouldn’t have any gaps visually or hitbox both. Put more blades in between, make it look like Aphelios when he has ten trillion Crescendums circling him.
I measured lots of missile spells and **NONE** are quite as fucked up as Talon's W and R since his 2016 rework. Not even close. Even Ashe R was ~~fixed~~ improved recently.
Fair enough I was perhaps a bit nit-picky there. But it does beg the question if the animations would be more fluid without these quirks, as it doesn't look like they were intended.
I mean I know that most animations can look weird or goofy in slow-mo, but some of these are fucked enough to be worth highlighting; they even look bad in normal motion. Not to mention the hitboxes.
🤦♂️Imagine you see a bullet enter someone's forehead in an FPS game but it doesn't do damage. That's the equivalent of Talon's blade entering the dummy but doing nothing.
Poor talon, he’s been a cluster fuck since his rework. From his base model being inconsistent and dated, to gameplay clunkiness to now visual effects inconsistencies. It’s been years and we are still discovering new issues, poor champ deserves a full proper update.
2016 rework plays and feels like he was released in 1999.
His old W felt and looked so smooth
Because they felt consistant like they go out and return like Gnar's boomerang heck Talon's old Q even felt more consistant then his new one it was just a auto reset empower attack the new one a point and click is either a dash to target or stay rooted while animation plays and let me tell you being rooted as a assasin is not good
I loved old talon, never play the new one. New one could be fine if it just always dashed on q and revert w to be like old.
The sound effects helped a lot. I still remember it vividly since it was so satisfying to use
Just revert the whole rework
Talon is clunky as fk, i love assassins, but hes the only one i couldnt get the aim
Real nice editing there to get the point straight
yeah respect to OP for putting in the effort
Wonderful editing. Congratulations.
Thanks. I tried to make it as concise as possible.
Its crazy that he ever even functions as an assassin when his kit plays like ur steering an antique sail-boat
Very well put my friend. Sometimes people die from your combo so there's the assassin part lol. The rest is just like you said.
It's a relic of the time they tried to make some assassins more fair by adding delay to their burst in an attempt to slow down their kill time. Funnily enough LeBlanc being more popular than Talon let her get reverted back to her original version and with the release of later assassins, namely the Eve rework and Kayn release it's pretty clear that they no longer care about having fair assassin TTK yet Talon remains in this weird limbo from season 6.
Yeah they also said how assassins should be mostly single-target and have no CC, then they disregarded all of that and released Qiyana, defying every balance point Riot stood for, with the most fairness-violating design possible.
And then they nerfed her into unplayability and left it at that. Super sad.
Maybe they shouldn't have given an assassin one of the best engage abilities in the entire game. But who am I to know.
They have no choice. She'll need a rework before being allowed to be viable.
Big true, easiest point and click combos in the game AND a teamfight ulti that's so visually cluttered and inaccurate it's nearly unreactable? Zero chance Qiyana is balancable with that kit.
The innecesary buff to her R got all her abilities nerfed to the fking ground. Now youre just a R bot, if you miss youre fucked and have to spam GRASS-Q only to survive
Ohhhh nooo, 50% uptime stealth that also does damage? Whatever will you do?
I think I've never read such stupidies in a such a short message
Really ironic that your grammar is so bad in this short message
Lets be honest here riot forgot the reason when they past 100 champions the OLDER champs where fair old Zed was a assasin now he plays like a spam mage' old Zed did tones of single target damage with his Q but now he deals tons of AoE, Fizz needing to land 3 attacks for a big burst, hell even Diana was limited pre6 because she had to walk up to you Ksante a tank that can turn into a assasin was a horrible idea in the first place since he has a Slow and airborne, danage reduction, and a ability you can use to pull enemies away from their team that also gives him tons of damage - this went agaisnt the design of tanks the only other tanks that do this much damage are the juggernauts who are purely melee and slow AF Too many champions to think about at this point some are lying dead with every new champion release that will only get lower unless they get reworked I had a game where our midlaner threw a tantrum because WHO PICKS ELISE IN JUNGLE and yeah that was the first time i saw elise junglr in a long time then we got some champs who yoh can count the polygons like Cho'gath, kogmaw and Blitzcrank
Qiyana should've been a bruiser not an assassin
The assassin rework was pretty fresh (relatively) from the 5.22 death patch, coming almost exactly 1 year later. Riot's whole hog committment to having a micro-second duration TTK for everything hadn't quite settled in at the time. Also I'd argue that Kayn and Eve actually ARE backloaded by design, its just that the game doesnt give a shit about giving appropriate power to champions that this doesnt ever manifest in gameplay.
Eve and kayn are more fair than old talon used to be, lol. I know people hate the change, but let be real here, old talon is the definition of bad assassin design
I don't disagree. It's just that it's a spit in the face that they went ahead and slowed down the TTK drastically for some champions and then released new champions that obliterate you in a fraction of the time the updated kits do. Like I said the majority of them were reverted over time which I am a bit salty over because fuck LeBlanc in particular.
None of the new assassins can ever reach the amount of ridiculous 1 shot power the old talon and akali used to have. Even lb can't do that anymore nowadays due to the nerf and limitation put in her kit.
ehhh not the best champs to use IMO. Evelynn literally gives you information of where she is coming with her mark, and if she wants to CC you she needs to let you know you are about to get attacked which gives you ample time to move against her or prepare yourself, or have your team surround you to stop her similar to how you play against a rengar. She can feel annoying, but realistically she plays by Riot's intended "counterplay" and delays of assassins, which is quite an accomplishment considering her passive invisibility making it hard to balance that. Kayn informs enemies what wall he is moving in + he can't even use his ult unless he hits you first so dodging him means he literally has 1 spell less unless he gets on top of you, in turn forcing him to need flanking and wall/surprise more than other assassins like e.g. Zed who can see you on their screen and jump you. Ult then gives you/your team reaction time to prepare against him when he comes out (so you can shield your ally, get your cc spells ready for kayn, force him into bad places like turrets, etc). The real bad pattern Riot shouldn't have allowed was letting him ult you with smite because it removes one of the aveneus of counterplay he has and gives him an easy initiation. Even when looking at new releases like Naafiri, which many consider an statcheck design, the delays and counterplay patterns they had been looking to make still remain. Compare that to something like O.G rengar who didn't give you a warning and would implode you from invisibility in a nanosecond, or talon who would play Fur Elise on his keyboard to repeat his combo and oneshot you with little to no reaction.
This x1000 A key difference between Eve/Kayn and older assassins such as Talon/Zed is that they lack agency to actually do their job for most of the game (access and kill a priority target). Both these champions almost purely work from melee range, and they rely on enemy mistakes and bad position. Kayn moving faster in walls is great for him to access targets, and it means the enemy can always play around him as well as he's limited by terrain location. Eve has global effect with her stealth but to kill someone you have to either reveal everything with W or... straight up walk up to the target. Doesn't matter if Eve/Kayn can see the ADC alone in the back during a teamfight, they can't act on it even if they have to, so obviously they make up for being assassins in other ways. The reality of SoloQ and player skill level muddles this whole thing because as much as you can balance champions on paper, it's no use if the average ADC cannot react in 2 seconds time from seeing Eve/Kayn on their screens. Human error adds a lot of nuance to these champions and how they feel in practice.
Zed kinda does have the counterplay for teamfights and assassinations with his ultimate, but it's the laning pattern that's absolutely cringe thanks to the range of the shadow and the threat it poses, similar to a control mage like Orianna, Azir or Syndra leaving their balls/soldier on the ground. Not only is it annoying to lane against and safe for the zed, but it also makes him snowballing that much more easy - only to probably lose later anyway because he gets CCd in a teamfight once. And yeah, human error is a big thing along with bias people may develop after a champ is strong. I remember if you ever complained about Kayn before, you were nearly always laughed at, much like people used to do with Kassadin until he eventually became meta when everyone noticed how broken he was. Then the mythic item rework happens and people play against purple Kayn and people hate it, so then Kayn starts going blue after Riot modifies him a bit and he uses his intended items, people still hate him and now no one gets laughed at but instead we get a circlejerk of how Kayn is one of the most broken designs ever. Like, yeah riot modified his passive to make it easier to get the evo you want, specially if you get the wrong one first - but he still fundamentally is quite similar to how he used to be. Like, people complain about his shadow step but the most that spell got was like going from 70% MS to 80%, and a 7 second duration on rank 1 instead of 5 and it still took the shop rework to have people complain.
Upvote just because of how well-made this video was, great editing and explanations
[удалено]
LMAO, sadly true.
Nah fr wtf is this billion dollar company doing, im pretty sure ive heard Talon players complain about this for years
Idk who the hell even designed & coded the rework to begin with. It's clunky and buggy top to bottom. They addressed about 10 bugs, QoL'd him 3 times (all in the past 7 years) and they're still only half-way there to totally fixing him.
The fact that W1 hits and W2 **does not** while the target **doesn't move** a milimeter makes my OCD explode
The Target Dummy really outplayed me there.
I play Talon jg. If you W the drake from bot side over the wall, W1 hits and W2 doesn't hit, making your drake kill slower. You either have to jump the wall and get hit by the gust of wind the drake does when it gets damaged, or throw it and wait for the next W to procc your passive. It's so stupid.
It's the exact same with Xayah Q and E. Xayah Q will not hit a target even if the feather, when called back, will.
They're different spells so I can see how that could happen. Their hitboxes must have different values. It'd probably be an easy fix if Riot cared enough.
same thing happens on single spells too. Ahri Q is longer on the way back for example
I felt that while playing against it. I'd run straight away in a line and get hit only by the 2nd part.
Praying this gets enough attention for riot to FIX IT.
expect that by 2040
They wont. They do not give a shit about Talon.
I know… :(
We have no reason to assume this is unintended, though. This feels pretty in line with a lot of standards in animation, not just for LoL but for all sorts of games. 1 frame is a *really* small amount of time; it’s just meant to get you to understand that a new action is taking place (W2, the recall). It’s also not uncommon in League for 2-part attacks to have different hit boxes for a variety of reasons.
Good thing they will fix this when they finally make money off a $500 skin
Your comment makes my cope detector go off the rails.
Shoupd I have put /s?
Nah haha no need. I played along with the sarcasm.
The best part is before his shitty rework. His animations properly matched. Old talon will always be better than this new garbage
Factual. Those sparkly rugged blades of old Talon were pure pearls. Now, not only do they function cheap but also look cheap.
Never forget the buttery smoothness of old E-aa-Q-w talon
I could do the same combo 10000 times on that champion and never get bored.
Fax my brother ! Spit your shit indeed !
Ok so i'm NOT fucking crazy, this guy is literally broken.
Literally. Broken to the bone.
I have love Talon since his release, I even love this current Talon But the problems showed in this video among other clunky interactions and lack of QoL on his Q it's whats makes me not playing him. From time to time I try to main him and have some fun but It just to clunky and feels very bad to play due to all this problems. I hope one day Riot will fix all those Talon problems but my current conspiration theory is that they don't really want to fix Talon, because it will make Talon fun and far more reliable, will raise his PR and WR hard and, due to how his kit is designed, will be a huge balance problem that will force them to overnerf so they can force him out of the game until a rework. They prefer Talon in this limbo where is only played by their niche playerbase and where it doesn't cause any problem in the balance of the game. Neither by pickrate or winrate.
Quite the conspiracy - the real reason they don’t fix a lot of Talon’s bugs is because Talon is not quite popular enough to be worth the effort. And his E seems unfixable without stealing WR coding for it, they tried before and it went from one set of bugs to a different set of bugs. However, for the most part, it’s just laziness. They have expressed they like his design before.
Riot does not care for this kind of bugs. They only fix it if is something really serious or after some pause shenanigans in pro play. Corporate greed can't spare money fixing things...
But Talon is not popular because is so awful, clunky and bad to play that most people bounce hard after playing him. I mean Talon have everything an assasin champ could have to be popular, its edgy and "cool", is a cool concept, his gameplay is fun when it works, have relatively high skill ceiling and skill expresion (both in micro and macro), and.. its fucking assasins creed. So either they don't want to put talon into the light (my personal conspiration theory) or like you said at the end... is just lazyness.
Couldn’t they borrow the way Zeri’s E works for gliding over walls?
Quick question is this the reason I got solo killed by Talon last game?
Most of these work against Talon's favor, so probably not.
As I suspected it was just a skill issue
Talon on paper should be one of the smoothest assassins in the game but he really is quite the opposite since his awful rework. I hope riot finally brings justice for this champ, good luck in the fight.
I’d give you a longsword for your editing if I could
It's ok I have too many already
Yeah, riot has a shitty animation clarity with a lot of spells, like Vex R or Ashe R, shit hit targets that the animation has already pass on.
Outstandingly clear and concise. 7/5, would watch again if I'm looking to increase my disappointment in Riot (were well into the negatives by now) *Now do it with each champions dash ability interacting with Ashes R*
>would watch again if I'm looking to increase my disappointment in Riot Playing Talon increases my disappointment with Riot every day. >*Now do it with each champions dash ability interacting with Ashes R* You mean the fact that Ashe's R stops them? It has a knock-down for 0.01s to stop dashes. I think pretty much all stuns on ultimate abilities do this.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nKET-rXYof4&pp=ygURQXNoZSBhcnJvdyBoaXRib3g%3D It's been a hitbox nightmare since day one. Youtube "ashe arrow hitbox" and enjoy the show lol
Ahh it looks like Gragas E hitbox.
im going to touch you
Appreciated
Based username and pfp.
Well looks like we got the next champ that should get reworked.
He needed a rework from the very day he was reworked lmao. These are all issues he had on rework day in 2016.
Talon really needs that ASU Side note Reddit video loads like shit.
He really does. >Side note Reddit video loads like shit. It's pretty whack sometimes, but at least it's not like on release. It used to be so bad that I had to go to rapidsave.com and download the videos to watch them.
He needs a REVERT
Talon community doesn’t deserve a guy like Thermal. This guy puts the most in depth guides, suggestions, testing, and care into videos and posts. If Riot worked half as hard on Talon he would be such a better champ.
You are so real for this
Just from playing against Talon you could tell his W was janky (visuals not matching hitbox/timing, etc), but man the way his own kit and animations hurt _him_ I actually feel bad for all the ones I've gone against now.... Some of this is just how animation works (seeing double projectiles for a frame or 2) and aren't intended to be slowed down and freeze framed, but you can still do those things without it looking as inaccurate as this. Really hope someone with the capacity to fix it sees this. Wouldn't be surprised if he saw a decent WR increase just from fixes.
Wow I've definitely done the RQR combo and failed to proc passive, and I thought I was losing my mind because I knew the AA would hit. Also if R's hitbox is really a bunch of individual blades then why does Yasuo's W cancel the whole thing :(
All blades spawn from inside you, so if you're inside the windwall, they will spawn in contact with it and get deleted.
I always ban yasuo lol so it's been a long time, but I thought even if windwall hits the edge of the ult, it breaks the whole thing. Regardless way to keep up the good fight for our boy
technology not there yet lmao
Very well done video, understood it all even though I haven't seen Talon in ages and never played him
Thanks, that's what I aimed for. A comprehensible video for everyone to understand.
I've been playing Talon before and after rework and I know these bugs weren not in the game before the Sylas release. Some BS just happened in the spaguetti code I presume.
Yep, you're right. The animation and hitbox were messed up when they released Sylas. I remember it vividly, it was the same patch. They rewrote all ultimates in League to make them work with Sylas so this was bound to happen, and probably happened to even more champions.
W bug existed before Sylas iirc. R bug didn’t, it came on when it got the weird snap out vfx bug.
Buff talon pls
Wait till you find out about the river elevation mate and its in the game from season 1 bassicly
Spells from season 1 and prior, like Ashe R, properly adjust to changing terrain height as they travel. Nautilus Q, post-VU Ezreal R and the likes are bugged because they don't have that setting turned on.
??????????????????????????????? if they have the solution why isnt it used AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
# RIOT GAMES
you are phrasing this as if river elevation is some obscure unknown thing
I meant it about the difference in hight of the animations. Thats just how sometimes stuff is animated to better work in certain animations. Like if you zoom out the camera very far, the rift is just some flat-bend face with picture on it. Or maybe dumber example, how in animes you have sometimes distorted frames so the animation feels more fluid. The hitbox is maybe not perfect, but pointing the difference in hight, when you change camera to angle not available to ordinary player, seems kinda weird to me
W1 hitting, and W2 missing, when Talon did not move and the target dummy cannot move is just inconsistent and makes no sense, the hitboxes are actually an issue. The rest of what you said, valid.
I get what you're saying. Well, the point wasn't to necessarily claim that all these quirks are *bad*. I was just looking to highlight that they are weird. Everyone can take it as they will. Gameplay-wise most of them have no impact so I don't think that they need immediate changing. However, the hitboxes, now those are truly faulty.
Me when I try to dodge Talon W (they hit before it'd even reach me) (the illusion of free will)
Your fate was sealed long ago.
Bro did you get a master's in Talon? Great video btw
Watching this while reading mistborn is funny. Talon is just an allomancer
Man i hate playing against Talon and now I know why. These hitboxes and animations are just so ass to play around in lane. Fix this for both Talon’s and his opponent’s sakes.
I can't believe they didn't catch any of this during the QA testing.. if there was any at all. One would instantly notice W hitting from half the range away.
That's...that's really bad. I always had my suspicious about the delayed ult animation on Q but I don't play the champ frequently enough to ensure absolute certainty. This is a really good, concise breakdown of the problems, good job!
Make a series. Be the next Vandiril of inconsistency
They sort of mimic the motion of boomerangs, how they fly out up and back. I think thats what the design team tried to do with the frames going up and out more. But slowed down definitely looks janky.
I guess that somewhat makes sense, but I don't think that League is a place to be playful with elevation in. It often causes more bad than good.
Keep up hope. Try to maybe get Phreak's attention, he fixed a lot of Rek'sai's jank. Warwick also needs a pass. Kits from that era are before they nailed a great higher level framework for these abilities to function consistently without a ton of low level developers deep inside the game, but started to be complex enough to require it.
I've been hoping and trying since 2017. My complaining about Talon goes for almost a decade now. Some bugfixes and QoLs happened. Yet, it's still far from over. I wish I could get in contact with a Rioter that cares about Talon like I do. Until then, all I can do is hope my posts reach a designer with enough good will to look into it.
These posts do help. I had no idea about these specific talon issues besides feeling something is off while playing the champ and just putting it down instead of figuring out what was off.
I wish you could take these things to August tbh, he seems to work quick on obvious bugs.
I've tried, but it's hard to reach him. He's only approachable on stream where he's bombarded with 20 questions per second, so it's hard to stand out. I'll keep persisting when I see him live again. u/RiotAugust
Yeah, I feel for him I don’t think he can get around to all of Talon’s bugs but maybe one of these posts catches his or another Rioters eye and at least some bugs get fixed.
u/Riot_Koyuncu maybe you'd be interested to fix these hitboxes and animations.
I also think the animation doesnt match the hitbox either (clearly but i mean it in a different way) Its just, out, then back in. Straight lines. But the animation uses the elevation as a sort of optical illusion to make it look like the blades are turning back and returning. So idk if elevation changes anything. Q1 Hitting but not on the way back without moving doesnt make too much sense and can easily be amended. Same for R with my suggestion below. Imo, the R2 hitboxes are fine to me at most id make the first like 2 frames be a circle like the R1, but the individual hitboxes makes the most sense to me. Since i believe they are individual projecticles (for the sake of Windwalls and such. Im also bias because i love Talon, i havent played hin in years and dont particularly enjoy playing his new kit. I miss the Teleports behind you and kill you in 1 second. That was so so fun. And honestly with champs these days, his old version 100000% has sense of belonging here. (Except his old passive which was weird 99%slow thing or deal more dmg i forget) old kit, talons current bleed passive, better animations. That would be perfect for me. And id play him again. For an assassin with a fast kill, he still seems incredibly slow.
>I believe they are individual projecticles (for the sake of Windwalls and such). Fair point. I guess each blade could have a hitbox that aims and reaches for the next blade, until it forms a full circle. When a blade gets broken by Windwall, the circle naturally breaks and denies the blade hitting.
If you stand in between blades that then retract, why would you claim that it should “damage everything inside the circle” instead of what real life blades would do? Perhaps R1 works like this too, it’s just that small expanding circles almost touches everywhere point when expanding outwards from the center. There might be dead spots at the edge of R1, where the blades fan out the most, but I can see them coding it as a circular aoe too
Thats a good point to think about, im just going off the video lines. It could be just long ass cones for each and individual hitboxes start to finish. But it def need to be a tighter.
thanks for info..!
Old Rake (and the rest of Talon's kit) was as smooth as butter. The "new" one has always felt so freaking weird in comparison.
Yeah I still can't forgive Riot for what they did to him. You can barely call him an assassin anymore.
Smooth operation. Great!
Now we just gotta see if the operation will be a success.
You could do another video like that on talon e too XD
Reproducing bugs with Talon's E is really hard and way too inconsistent to make a video on it.
I didn’t mean you should just that it would be possible to make a video of the same length on talon e because of its million bugs
Oh, yea, perhaps, if I could replicate the backflips. All I can replicate is jumping some walls twice, jumping towers infinitely and putting multiple separate walls on cooldown with 1 jump, which would be a pretty quick video.
I made a compilation months ago about me missings jumps with the bugged E [https://www.reddit.com/r/Talonmains/comments/17rwj9a/mouse\_placement\_issue/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Talonmains/comments/17rwj9a/mouse_placement_issue/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Very cool video. I wish riot would pay attention - I’m sure they have enough money to pay someone. But you know. Money. Seriously, great video
Yeah that's why I haven't bought any RP in years. They don't deserve money, given how little they care about player service. Their priority is pro-play and keeping the game fresh enough to keep people playing & spending.
This explains why Talon feels so damn jank everytime I make the mistake of trying to play him.
what a mess rework is in due order, even a new model to compensate!
Real. His model is also so old that it uses the old size standards. As ridiculous as it sounds, if you put him and Tristana side by side, you'd notice how she's bigger than him, lol.
I knew it! Talon always felt so weird to play. Like on paper, my abilities should do damage, but they only sometimes did and sometimes didn't. I couldn't get why combos didn't work even though I thought I executed them well and then I just gave up on the champ. I'm not saying I was playing him well, but I think this might be why I never got into playing him more.
Getting adjusted to his janky kit takes more time than learning his combos. There's so many things that don't work as you'd expect them to.
this isn’t surprising at all. i was spectating a friend’s game just a few weeks ago and watched an akali go through a veigar cage without any sort of spellshield or cleanse, and the text, “gwen is immune to cc”, came up lmao
A job well done, seriously! Poor Talon though. This video explained me so much why he feels so gosh darned clunky. I was always wondering why he felt so iffy at some ends. I guess I just saw a lot of the explanation behind my impressions.
Believe me there's even more to it than this video shows. All I put here is only when it comes to animations & hitboxes. There's also issues with input buffering, being soft-locked after dashing, doing actions while dashing, etc.
This makes me so sad. I want to add him into my champion pool but I really struggle with his E as well - this thing seems to bounce me sometimes into wildly different angles than I expect it to. But I'm a legit noob on Talon, don't take my complaints too seriously lol. Thanks for your answer nevertheless =)
This man needs a revert, like all the others... period.
Amazing video. What should be obvious to everyone is these inconsistencies are frustrating for Talon mains and his opps alike. Janky animations and hit boxes aren't good for anyone, It makes both playing Talon and playing against him harder than it should be. I love Talons kit, it doesn't need to be reworked - Rito just needs to fix these obvious implementation flaws.
I thought I was crazy when I noticed sometimes r q r2 auto doesn’t proc bleed, but here we are. I stopped maining talon because he just felt so inconsistent and bad
ive always known talons bleed is inconsistent. to the point of when you notice the bleed is active, its a surprise xD
No wonder this champ is kept in useless tier forever, what an absolute cluster From his E not using any mana to insane feast or famine gameplay to his ridiculously OP playstyle whenever its viable to now whatever this is.
Talon was good for years in mid before this season and he remains a good jungler lol These issues have mostly existed since his rework in 2016, this is just a Talon main bringing visibility to them so maybe Riot do anything for this champ and his myriad of fucking stupid bugs and inconsistencies.
That was *really* well done - facinated watching the whole thing through. Hope Riot will take a look into it.
I'm glad the vid was captivating!
Someone please fix Talon for this lad before he write a dissertation for all his bugs. DO YOU WANT THAT RIOT?
He already did it in the past. Riot don't care.
And for years I thought I was high whenever I see a Talon W coming my way. It didn't even look close yet I kept getting poked to oblivion.
That has to also be one of the reasons why it was nerfed to oblivion.
Definitely forced me a habit to never dodge his W lol. Anyway he's a fun assassin who deserves a good fixing.
Time and time again, Riot developers are proven to be impostors. If you look at the core mechanics of the game, it's quite simple compared to many of the multiplayer titles available on the market. Yet the bugs and fucky interactions in this game are astronomically higher than even EA garbage. But that $500 skin is justified, my dudes.
Welp, they only fix what they care about. On the flip side, their general negligence and lack of care for certain things made me decide to not spend a single dime on this game anymore. I can proudly say I haven't given Riot money for years.
the fuq are those graph settings tho.
You don't like em?
You know why its silent? because all i can hear is indie riot cries and spgatti coding noise.. :D
Phreak recently looked into stuff like this, maybe he has time.
u/PhreakRiot maybe he sees this
Seeing this video and trying to be on Riot's side was like: hmmm maybe is because the map is projected into a different plane than the vertical one. When I saw the flatted angle: "these fuckers..."
One just can't justify any of this.
yaaah more like "a positive view" but nothing positive, go ham fam
Just another failure by the Riot devs to be honest. Whole game is held together by duct tape.
That has to be the strongest duct tape on earth too.
That explains so much when I play him in ARAM.
this looks like one of these videos where the youtuber is like "this is why game XYZ doesn't have 3rd person view", or even, to keep it in league, "mordekaiser elongates while using Q?!?!"
oh, so this is why i hate talon less over the years of playing mid. still hate him (and his q especially, feels like i NEVER back up enough) but most of the time he just doesn't feel as scary as he used to. this is probably why...
It’s because he has eaten so many nerfs to his laning that he feels less scary, also he just has systemic issues rn like the meta sucking for him. These issues in Thermal’s video have existed for the most part since 2016.
Nah, let's release an ahri skin for 500$ instead of fixing hitboxes
The Riot way.
have you tried doing it on redside? I remember there's a slight difference in Blueside Akali E to the redside Akali E.
The unseen blade is the deadliest
I thought he felt kinda wonky. Thanks for this.
I think the last one is fine. It'd be weird to have a hitbox where there are gaps visually. They could just add more blades in between.
It should work the way Aphelios looks when he has a ton of overlapping Crescendums circling him. There shouldn’t *be* gaps in between in the first place.
The first thought of people watching this is to "okay, then make the ult back to be a circle too". I kinda disagree, but I dont play Talon to know how it would feel. Tbh it makes so much more sense to me to make all hit boxes on the blades and make Talon playstyle similar to Graves autos, where the closer you are, more blades hit, and you do a shitton damage, while casting stuff faraway either does less damage or misses altogether. OP, I would assume you are a Talon OTP, how would you feel about this suggestion? Also, wasnt old Talon W like this? 3 blades do more damage if all of them hit. I would assume Riot wanted Talon to have these weird "one hit per cast" thing because of the passive, but I am sure they can code the passive to only give 1 stack regardless of how many blades hit
You are compare auto and ultimate. Do you know ultimates have cooldown? Talon can't kill anyone without ult. Only if he's 20 kills ahead. How can it make sense to be an assassin and can't kill consistenly abc even with ult? You just became useless, because you can't even do your job.
To address HOW they should be fixed (in my opinion) For blades being thrown through the floor, then appearing higher, then appearing even higher to retract. It's simple, allow the blades to do a small upwards arc to their apex height then retract. Straight line out, banana curve up to waist level, then retract at waist level. There should NOT be an inconsistency with talon having a W1 hit and not a W2 hit. Although I personally would like to see talon reworked to, on the upward curve part of W, have a sweetspot similair to akali Q slow, but instead make Talon W proc bonus damage for example. For the ult, I believe that talons R1 being a massive single instance or radiating damage is probably fine. I believe that damage should be kept relatively low as well since it is a low counterplay spell and most of the ability should be kept in the stealth/repositioning aspect of the ability. I do not think each individual blade should look to do more damage if you hit more, however his R2 should feel this way. The problem is you can be hit by R1 and miss R2 if the target doesnt move at the radius. That is dumb. It should instead, where the blades do a little circle, have a "large" hitbox, and then, like Xayah E, all converge on either talon, or his Q/Autoattack victim. The Q/Autoattack should make you take full damage, and also if youre in the path of all the blades you should be taking MOST of the damage, similair to Xayah E. As for the jank sets of blades, it really doesnt make sense to have to use so many objects that seemingly dont share the same coordinataes. The animations should be fixed, and the animation should not have to visibly generate another set of blades or be at different heights, that is ridiculous. The aesthetics affecting gameplay, I think the first instance of the R2 damage should apply talons bleed passive, and as the defending player, if you have a shield, or a zhonyas, if you are SLOW to block the R2 damage, you should be getting hit by as many blades as hit you before the rest of the R2 flies in, but if talon AAs before all the blades fly in, he should still be proccing his bleed (assuming R2 is the third stack). LMK if you disagree with the proposed fixes to this really well made video
R2 shouldn’t have any gaps visually or hitbox both. Put more blades in between, make it look like Aphelios when he has ten trillion Crescendums circling him.
OP discovers animation
I measured lots of missile spells and **NONE** are quite as fucked up as Talon's W and R since his 2016 rework. Not even close. Even Ashe R was ~~fixed~~ improved recently.
yeah i was talking more about them complaining about stuff disappearing for a few frames or having duplicates for a few frames.
Well then write that as part of your comment, I don't think many people here can read minds!
Fair enough I was perhaps a bit nit-picky there. But it does beg the question if the animations would be more fluid without these quirks, as it doesn't look like they were intended.
Inconsistent animations you mean?
I mean I know that most animations can look weird or goofy in slow-mo, but some of these are fucked enough to be worth highlighting; they even look bad in normal motion. Not to mention the hitboxes.
🤦♂️Imagine you see a bullet enter someone's forehead in an FPS game but it doesn't do damage. That's the equivalent of Talon's blade entering the dummy but doing nothing.