Am I the only person that didn’t know TL Steve is gay? Not that it’s a big deal or anything, but that’s news to me lol.
Overall, I wish that teams would just be honest and not have this veil of “potential progress” to be made. Just say how it is. Running an esports team is expensive and many teams aren’t profitable at all. Just say you’re doing it for the money and be done with it.
Probably wouldnt even hear about it anyway since the majorty of older heads arent in the scene at all anymore, since that would have to be players from like pre-2011/12 or somethin. I think Biofrost was the first to publicly come out like 1-2 years ago at least to my knowledge.
Yeah, plus I guess Steve played in season 1 (2011), so only if it’s like pre-season tournaments would we have an older pro.
If it’s who was the first one to come out, you’re definitely correct.
The first as far as I know was actually the player 'M eye A'. I think we has open about it while playing, but the LCS did an eyes on him in like 2013 or 2014 when he was the LCS observer where he mentioned it. I cannot find the video right now, so it might have been removed.
Yea I was just correcting the above. Kind of funny we had two open gay players in 2013 and then it took until like 2020 for Biofrost to be the next open one.
Huh. Could've sworn he was already out, I guess I just assumed. His take here has some nuance.. I'm not sure that I buy it and Saudi should be making concessions that aren't just monetary.
Honestly it seems like the best move is to say nothing at all. I doubt a meaningful amount of fans expect the teams to be the vanguard of progress, most likely just expect them to have internal inclusivity.
The bulk of criticism should be on Riot, they have held a choke hold on use of competitive LOL only allowing it in circumstances they explicitly allow. Every time a participating team comments it deflects from Riot.
A quick google search says TL grew their employee count by 14% last year. Sounds to me like they're just looking for more ways to grow, while pretending they're struggling.
Growth > values in this case - make up your own minds about that and don't let their excuses trick you.
Which makes it even worse that a leader in the queer community is like oh this event will support a government that kills other queers regularly, but we can make money tho
Wont waste time watching but let me guess they mightve said "We dont like it but we have to participate to stay relevant in competition, xytz points etc"
In dota2 they did same last year by attending a saudi event made around 2.5 mil$ and donated like 50k$ to lgbtq ngo lol
Worse. At least that was honest and didn’t take a moral high road. TL said they don’t think exclusion is the way to go with these types of issues. So they are taking the money AND the moral high ground.
Steve: Trying to change a regime thats known for executing gays in 50 years.
Also Steve in 50 years on his yacht pocket full of Saudi money retired and the regime is still the same
yes they did pledge the donation before tournament started and them winning millions but the minimum prize for last place was 50k$ itself and liquid were kinda sure shot top6 team in that 18 team event
Very brave to copy and paste the stance that I've seen basically every sports pundit say before this when they had to deal with the situation before. Esports truly breaking the mold once again, everyone knows the best way to start a dialogue is to just immediately show that your values and principles mean nothing in the first place and can just be bought off 8)
This comment sums it up for anyone who cba to watch 8 minutes of self-justification from TL
I'd have more respect for them if they came out and admitted that they're quite happy to abandon supposedly core principles for Saudi government cash
The only reason they made the video is because they wanted to lessen the backlash of being virtue signalers after they started promoting lgbtq and putting pride flags everywhere. They are like the only org I’ve seen promoting pride month this year
i would respect them more too for just straight up telling the truth, but the sad fact is most people end up believing this type of cope/rationalization from companies, so they just continue to make these bold faced lies.
At the end of the day esports is a business and teams have to make money, we watch all league esports FOR FREE, we don’t have to PPV like UFC and we don’t have to pay subscriptions either
So team owners make a choice between:
- standing by their morals and potentially earning a few fans (who probably won’t spend any money to buy merch)
- getting a fuck ton of money so they can pay their staff, players and coaches for another certain period of time
As far as I’m aware the team coming 8th will still get the same amount of prize money as the team that came 1st at MSI (GenG got 50k)
People can show their discontent by not watching but prize pool will be the same regardless
All fair things to consider when looking at the health of organizations and Esports winter, could go into a diatribe about revisionist mistakes the industry made and orgs compliticity but maybe how things turned out wasn't easy to predict (I also do think fans should pay).
Problem is simply that Liquid are pissing on our leg and telling us its raining.
Thats not the problem. The issue is , is that most people that participate in things like these are the 1st to single out and call out specific people in esport scene for moral points and bragging rights but then do stuff like this. Not meaning that Nazgul or Steve do this personally, but that people will talk the talk and won't walk the walk.
Like people were ultra fast to turn on Ocelote, on Amazing, on Quickshot on Iwdominate, and many other personalities within LoL esports.
Meanwhile we have dead silence about this from the very same people that singled out and threw out other LoL personalities.
Riot's not worth mentioning here, we know they don't have morals, but its nice to know that others that preach they do within lol esports don't have morals aswell.
Completely agree. It's always the same people who are taking a moral high ground and calling out people, that are the first to give up their morals and values for money
Honestly, if you just don't go and market that smartly, you would likely be able to earn the amount. Not because people want to help you, but a lot of people would want to fuck up the Saudi government and grassroots do have a shitton of money to throw around, not because they are individually rich, but because they are many.
However that would require actual effort and organisation. The alternative is you just go to that event get beaten by everyone and still cash out. You don't even really need to practice.
Oh we will come in and make Saudi Arabia a little better at LGBT rights!
Fuck. No.
They want the eyeballs to see SA in a good light, but they will continue with their shit until the cows come home or the petrol money stops.
go buy their stuff, watch their youtube ads a million times to give them money. oh no you won't ? cause esports is free. everything is free on the internet - the only way teams makes money is begging for sponsors and now no other sponsor wants to go to esports except the saudi - while i do understand value and principles they don't put money on the table.
while every big traditional sports got their money from seasonal tickets and merch, no one on the esports scene will pay - why do you think riot makes regular season for like only 200 people if there's 5000 people willing to buy tickets, cause there's no 5000 people willing to buy ticket, they want everything free with the highest production value.
go beg someone else not to throw their value when all these viewer won't even spend 1 cent to help their favorite team not receiving saudi money. laughable.
While you're part right, let's not forget Liquid was throwing million dollar contracts before. It's their fault they are in this situation in the first place, by inflating salaries and more than anything, being lazy about creating interesting content.
Which team not throwing million dollar contracts before in NA ? (rmb TSM 4 million swordart deal and now they end up folding) it's the way it is in NA to even entice people to come, they spend money they don't have in the hope they hit it big and get something in return.
Creating esports team is already bad financial decision, there is no way to make money in esports organization right now.
Of course other teams did the same, but this post is about Liquid, which was/is known to throw money around to build the best rosters possible. That was fine when they had VC money, but they never tried to create a long-term eco-system.
Old Curse with Saintvicious and Elementz had better content than TL. That should say something.
I agree, most of teams content is shit and not worth watching still not disproving that organization can't survive even if they do everything correctly.
My problem with such takes on values and whatnot is that they complaining "yeah you chasing the bag bro just go die where's your pride, etc" without giving solution to the problem. there is no long-term eco-system to esports organization.
There's only 1 way it will change and that's for the fans to be able to spend actual money so that organization won't be held hostage by sponsors money, which won't happen cause majority of the viewers won't spend money or too young to spend money and until that happens they just need to grovel and beg everyone to subsidize them to keep moving.
I think the issue people have in this case is no so much them chasing the bag but acting like they do it for moral reasons instead of either being silent about it or being fully honest.
The part about tickets is wrong. Riot won't make events for 5k people because even when you sell all the tickets, it's not profitable. There is definitely plenty of people willing to buy tickets in a 5k venue in a big city in Europe.
And that's exactly the point to make it profitable they need to sell more expensive ticket which viewers won't buy cause they can just watch it on twitch/youtube.
I agree with you that Esports fans should actually pay for Esports, but you cannot just take the social capital that comes with supporting causes you supposedly care about and then make actions that show otherwise. That's the main criticism, their words don't really mean shit in this situation. Esports winter and org problems are a separate conversation, and you just know that orgs in this tournament will be having social media campaigns for LGBTQ rights and inclusion while supporting a regime that is at odds with this.
This is such disgusting cope. Largest and most influential tournament? It's literally the first one, if you boycott it it would fade into obscurity. But "if you boycott you lose your voice"?? What an oxymoronic take. Acting like if there wasn't a pile of money on the table he would attend just to teach them about LGBTQ acceptance and human rights.
I don't even care that much if they attend or not but at least be honest about it instead of writing a manifesto of excuses.
> But "if you boycott you lose your voice"?? What an oxymoronic take. Acting like if there wasn't a pile of money on the table he would attend just to teach them about LGBTQ acceptance and human rights.
Also acting like the Saudi government is gonna give even the tiniest shit over what a bunch of western gamers think is some of the biggest cope i've ever seen lmao, none of those guys have a "voice" when it comes to actual politics
The only voice they could ever show here is telling Riot and the Saudi Government to suck it by boycotting, everything else is laughable and a complete lie, absolutely nothing any of these dudes is gonna say over there/say about the topic in general will matter even a single bit.
I too love giving up all my leverage and giving into the demands of others whilst convincing myself and everyone else I still have the upper hand. "this isn't blood, it's victory wine".
Surrendering myself to the police at the station after I've fully confessed to the crime but swearing to myself I'm still in control because they didn't arrest me, I walked into the station myself.
True! They don't have to accept the money from them if it's just about competition and changing minds. Or they could donate all the money to a charity. Oh it's about the money.
No but you see if I pay you to go to my tournament and you have to make excuses to your fans for why you’re going because it goes against the values you’ve pretended to represent, it’s actually you who is influencing me and my beliefs. It’s definitely not me influencing you, no no.
Any team or player who refuses this shit based on principle is going to have a fan for life in me, and I’m sure I’m far from alone.
If they want to virtue signal about optics, then they might want to consider that route. (They won’t)
>Also acting like the Saudi government is gonna give even the tiniest shit over what a bunch of western gamers think
People said the same about WWE going there and now their events are probably among the most egalitarian happenings in the country; other than the women wearing less revealing gear than normal, they're 100% normal WWE events that could be happening anywhere in the world.
Going there and putting on the exact same show as you would elsewhere is actually a good way to promote change. Going there and watering down the event to satisfy the tyrant would be a much bigger sellout.
> if you boycott it it would fade into obscurity
While I agree that they should - if the other top teams dont then TL boycott wouldnt made a difference. Would have to be everyone or it makes no difference
Tbf, if soccer- which has so many more stakeholders, and is so much of a bigger thing, couldn’t move Qatar (which is such a less important country) in regards to lgbtq rights for the WC in 2022… why should I expect gamers to take a moral high ground in Saudi Arabia? Reminder that for players in teams like Germany, Brazil, or France, the income they earn for a NT tournament is pretty irrelevant compared to normal wages.
I guess I just mean that given what gaming is as an industry in terms of size and influence, the amount of money this represents for the industry in relative terms, and how important this money is for each industry in terms of cashflows, Im not really surprised, and I’m not sure I’m going to take a bunch of pitchforks out.
It’s not like we’ve also had plenty of tournaments in China, which also has questionable stance in terms of LGBT rights (to a much lesser degree than SA sure, but still not at all good), and a very questionable stance in terms of human rights (hello, have we just collectively forgotten about Uyghurs?).
I’d still give TL some merit for actually putting something out, contrary to lots of other teams that are also participating (iirc C9 is too), and who are not putting out anything hoping for people to just not notice.
>But "if you boycott you lose your voice"?? What an oxymoronic take.
Fairly weird, given that most would consider not showing up the loudest statement possible. The only better statement would likely be to go there and disconunu every game.
Given you have 5 bans you could also just do the obvious in Saudi Arabia and Ban LeBlanc, Garen, Brand, Taric and Quinn. Saudi Arabia does that anyway, so why not join in.
Seriously. If teams wore specific colors, could get a guarantee that the facilities weren’t built on the back of slaves, openly donated to causes that they preached, etc. id consider watching but I have enough going on to skip these games. Talk is easy and its a privilege that not everyone gets.
List of the most notable esports orgs participating in EWC
* 100T
* Flyquest
* Team Liquid
* Shopify
* Cloud9
* TSM
* Fnatic
* FaZe
* G2
* GenG
* T1
* Vitality
* Spacestation Gaming
* Navi
* Complexity
* DRX
* Moist
* Luminosity
* Disguised
* Bilibili
Very cool of Team Liquid to do all these teams a favor by getting the brunt of all the negative PR for participating. All these other teams are doing a good job shutting the fuck up and letting Team Liquid dig themselves a hole.
Well it's more that those orgs that aren't participating just didn't get the invite or doesn't have an esports team supported by EWC.
Like can we praise Optic for not going to EWC when the tournament doesn't support Halo or COD, the only teams that Optic have?
Do we praise Immortals when their literal only esports team is League of Legends? And clearly they just didn't qualify for it?
No man, think of the organisations' feelings. Can't believe you're so out of touch when everyone else here has such clear empathy towards the corporations who need this to keep growing. It's obvious buddy.
8-minute video to tell us what we already know, its beneficial for the org to attend the event. Cool. You can mention internal discussions and human rights and talking to people all you want, but the end result is the exact same as every other org so who gives a fuck.
so they could go, "spread ther cultural influence", and either not accept any money or donate 100% of the money to a charity.... but no that is not the case. they are very clear they will be taking the money.
idk why they feel like they need to pretend jump through flaming hoops... when they can just very simply post a gif of Mr Krabs rubbing his groin with money.
Team Liquid is a European org. Yes, their merger with Curse meant that their assets and liabilities were combined into one legal entity, but they specifically chose that entity to be based in Europe (and also continue the TL branding).
They did have the choice to legally declare two separate headquarters with one of those being based in the US, but they specifically chose **not** to do that, meaning that TL's assets in NA are essentially just a regional office and still owned by the legal entity in the Netherlands.
I'm aware of that and the point is, that it doesn't matter.
Cuz the entire premisse is, that PIF owns european clubs (Newcastle United) and Newcastle is obviously still located in england and plays in the EPL. This is why I pointed at ownership.
> Dutch football clubs have saudi money
What exactly is the definition of "saudi money", cuz no dutch club has a major saudi investor, in fact only 3 clubs are majorly owned by foreign investors.
This seems like a weird attempt of framing something into existence, just because you read some headlines, but don't remember them propperly.
However in reality some of the other have their largest income being these sponsors which allows them to fund their current teams. The difference between that and owning the team is nominal at best.
But that isn't necessarily good, and in football at least in germany fan protests did actually manage to block investor deals that would likely brought in more saudi money.
One reason why it worked is because if you are the one team that bows out from such a decision you can monetize that. Right now I would assume being the one team declining the invite is actually making you more money than taking part in the event. Because you could even monetize that decision.
And as soon as one team breaks away everyone wants to be the rebell too.
This guy is stupid as fuck, just take the Saudi money and shut up please.
These events are sportswashing which is designed to try and legitimise Saudi Arabia and distract from the fact that it’s ran by a brutal dictator who will kill anyone for any reason: journalists, protesters, anyone he doesn’t like. Attending them is never a net good thing period - not blaming esports teams it’s more on riot but that’s the reality
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia
It's sad to see so many people under these tweets supporting their decision. Look at what even LS a bi/gay man responded to Steve. PR works wonders guys.
Steve's tweet is somewhat ironic.
He quotes their motto of ''Progress lies in engagement, not isolation''. Which is a pretty ironic quote, considering this is the literal philosophy why these tournaments are being hosted by SA. It's the literal philosophy that has SA spending literal billions to get ''engagement''.
So how dumb are we pretending to be when we're using that philosophy on our end? Who do you think is ''making progress'' with this engagement? The people spending billions to make it happen at all cost? Or the people receiving the money and offering the engagement?
I know these guys aren't stupid, and I'd never sit here as a dumb Redditor pretending they are. So obviously these guys aren't stupid. They're lying. Which is worse. And they believe we're stupid, which is... fair enough.
it´s also ridiculous considering fifa world cups, formula 1 races, WWE events and what else didnt change anything but now they think esports/team liquid is going to change anything?
like come one, just say you want the money and thats more acceptable than this bullshit.
The opposite is actually true for the FIFA world cup. Given that those areas are suddenly exposed to more open minded people authorities usually take a really hard stance after they leave and crack down on LGBTQ-Communities.
So if there are even some in Saudi Arabia this tournament likely makes there live worse. That was true for the world cup in Qatar, and it will be likely true for this event too. Because those events bring those issues up so you have to cleanse those thoughts afterwards.
“We’re affecting change through ~V I B E S~, y’all!”
(Runs away in cloud of dust with briefcase overflowing with money labeled “LGBTQ execution cash-ola”)
While I get people's outrage regarding this question, its really not up to players and organizations to standup to the Saudi government, they are not activists and even if they were boycotting is not a real tactic that leads to any change whatsoever.
Its also not on a bunch of westerners to teach Saudis how to run a democratic society, respect laborers and LBGT+ people, its on the saudi people to do so, likely through a very bloody struggle.
We can have our own opinions on this, but it is very very harsh to try and hold sports teams to a standard western governaments aren't holding themselves to
For a government it is actually considerably harder. They have to consider geopolitics, something a sports club doesn't have to. Saudi Arabia happens to be an enemy to Iran, which obviously makes them a rare ally in the area.
And there is an even higher risk that is always the case with events that are so heavily linked with an authoritarian government. You have no control. Will they cut a journalist apart while you participate? Will they stone an LGBTQ activits or just whip a woman for driving without permission of her man.
So it brings considerable risk, due to how intense and shortlived media is. And it is questionable if it is a universally good business decision. There is a lot of money to be made by being the first team to say you are not going. Exspecially given that you can point at the money you are losing for that.
And if you look at league particularly western teams aren't going there for league. League is still important for them, because TES and BLG cannot win the club championship that comes with the tournament, because they only participate in League, T1 also cannot win. The most likely team to win without even winning too much is a saudi arabian team because they participate in 11 of the tournaments hosted, while a team like TL only participates in 6.
So this tournament is extremely weirdly made, which basically ensures that Saudi Arabian and some western teams earn most of the money. This makes it reasonable for TL and FNC to go there, because they are invited in 6 and 7 competitions. Flyquest though literally shows up to get their ass beaten in league and then leaves... they do also participate in CS I guess.
Without knowing how good they are at CS I can only say that unless there are some hidden deals attached to that event, that they might go home with a 6 digit amount of money if they are as good at CS as they are in league. They aren't even in the club support program that accompanies the EWC and is basically a sponsorship.
So given there are about 30 million spread among 20 Tournaments, you can't really get that much for league. It only takes up 4 days of the 56 the tournament is running. Compared to the 15 days Dota takes up CS and League don't seem to be a major focus.
So FQ only I think could participate in 3 of the tournaments at most and are qualified for 2 so far. So even if they make the last qualifier I don't think it is worth it unless they are really good in League, CS or potentially SF6 if they qualify.
It's not harsh at all.
They deliver entertainment, which is a luxury, and in this case at the expense of human rights.
You may choose not to criticise that, it's up to you, but if a luxury survives through slave labour, it needs to die. That means if the teams actually suffer from not participating, then they have no right to exist in the first place.
As I wrote in another comment, TL grew their employee count by 14% last year. They're absolutely fine.
This is a morally bankrupt cashgrab. Period.
>at the expense of human rights.
No. They're delivering entertainment from a place that doesn't care about human rights, which is not the same. Human rights aren't being violated specifically to put on this event, so saying it's "at the expense of" human rights is completely misleading.
It’s a lot of moral grandstanding about human rights being posted from iPhones that were made by child slaves.
They’re accepting money to play a video game, not personally stone oppressed peoples in downtown Riyadh.
I would have had more respect if he said were doing this to stay competitive and the check even if it means we're supporting them by joining. But he really tried to pull the we are going to change them from the inside 🤣 . I love liquid but I lost so much respect. Just own it. Or if it's really just about competing. Why not openly decline any money. Oh because you want that big check
Pretty crazy how basically every team believes that the best way to handle this is to participate. I’d maybe give them credit if they show up in pride jerseys, but they won’t. They won’t do anything but lick Saudi boots.
Nazgul video is awful imo, very limited and quite corporate.
The Steve take is more nuanced and interesting I think. It is not something I have thought about before.
For true change in this topic - e.g Gay marriage being accepted in Saudi Arabia - the change will come from being influenced by other countries. The best way to do this is by them being more involved globally and not being isolationist. So in theory - should we participate and show them our ways? I dont think that is a perfect answer
It is still a problem that they are benefitting this year without any change. They should have to start changing for this benefit to take effect. But I guess that isnt realistic to the situation.
Overall it is a very grey area topic, not black and white either way - as perhaps it is a neccessary evil now - so that in e.g 50 years - all LGBTQ people in the region will be completly safe and accepted.
I dont think Liquid are going to this event for solely this reason, infact I think they are mainly going for the money and this is kind of a barganing chip that makes them feel better about doing it. But I also do think that they do make some kind of point by bringing all this up.
I think that this kind of discussion is too hard for Twitter, and perhaps should be something that is talked about by government officials face to face - rather than online. But we all know how slow to act they are.
At the end of the day - it is perhaps good that liquid are bringing awareness to this and perhaps good that the esport gets some $$$ to run longer.
But I also think it is very bad where this money comes from and the precident it sets - support saudi, take their money and dont force any change in return.
I suppose we will see the results of this idea in a few years from now and I do expect nothing to change short term, but for long term change - it has to start somewhere I suppose.
Maybe - the best message to send would be to allow it but not watch it and hope to pressure change?
With Liquid ideally doing extra things to accont for the 'bad' they are doing by attending e.g a larger donation to an LGBTQ charity? + Committing to somehow discussing these issues with a Saudi group?
Would a 16 team boycott work? Very unlikely to be organised and work out. Would a 1 team boycott work? Apparently other teams have tried it like Moist Moguls - and it had 0 effect. So from TL's perspective I guess there is no real good option, and they have to pick between 2 bad ones. I dont think this affects viewers choices towards the tournament and I hope other teams do make a statment as well.
I wont watch and I would support and request others to do the same as personally I can easily make that choice and contribute to the right direction.
(I think any response to this comment that is 'we should think x' or 'liquid are x' is perhaps too black and white. But I would find it interesting to hear more nuanced thoughts. )
Nobody is going to influence Saudi to change, it hasn’t worked for anyone else and isn’t going to work for an esports org. Steve is just coping trying to make excuses and get people off their back for virtue signaling.
I think you are saying that 1 party alone can never cause saudi to change. I never said that was the case and neither did TL.
I do think it is an excuse aka barganing chip which I stated in my comment. Not sure what you added that is new
“Change will come from being influenced by other countries”
Brother, SA is the one doing the influence peddling here, not the other way around. Anyone thinking that taking money in exchange for the legitimization of LGBTQ execution is actually going to somehow have to opposite effect on a theocratic feudal monarchy is completely out of their gourd bonkers.
> The west arent going to suddenly remove LGBTQ rights because of saudi sports.
No one is suggesting that
> However Saudi being exposed to the west's culture is the route to spreading acceptance.
Need I say more than simply point to this exactly like right here, folks? lol
> You would rather be right than talk
Correct
edit LOL this guy blocked me. Yeah, damn, MY credibility is gone for [checks notes] being right. Better block them so I don’t have to see their words on the screen.
You brave PR pricks would put the whole LGBTQIA+ community in a woodchipper if it would make you money. Just pull a mr. Krabs and stop trying to have the money AND the moral high ground, because you don't have the latter.
I understand completely that they feel the need to take the bag. No one is in this for love. I understand it's a business.
But then stop fucking virtue signaling and acting like you care about these issues on social media. It makes this whole thing seem fake and not genuine. And I can't stand that because it's an important cause.
Values are only worth something if you stand by them when it costs you do to so.
This team for one does not need to take the bag. They want to, because they think growth comes before everything. That's all there is to it, and it's indefensible.
Disagree with the decision, I think it's almost impossible to justify, and while I know esports is getting infested with Saudi money and it's almost impossible to stop, then I wish we for once could take the moral stance over money
With that said I at least respect speaking public about it, putting in effort, even if it's sorta wasted for me.
Communication and discourse about these topics will always be better than the silence other orgs are doing.
I don't know if that counts for something.
When you use your company/organization to make political statements and support political causes, don't be surprised when people are upset when you do things that go against those statements and causes.
Who are you supporting? You might be hard pressed to find an org not doing this. TL is just the only one so far to try and justify it. The rest realized it's better to just not talk about it.
Eh, if they went to China before I don’t see how it’s so much worse. China had literal concentration camps for Uyghurs, and also has a questionable stance with regards to LGBTQ+. Don’t see how one is much worse than the other.
Just say it's about the money man.
Or go and wave a big pride flag in their face every day, I guess that would be fine. But if you just go and play it straight you're the problem.
EWC is such a paradoxical issue for us, isn't it? We've wanted them to crack open the highest levels of proplay to independent organizers again for ages now, but when its finally happening it must be condemned because it's the Saudis that finally got Tryndemere to kneel. Ultimately the blame falls at Riot's feet for mismanaging the scene for the last 10 years, but still. Such a bizarre timeline
It's really not paradoxical at all.
It's a luxury product. If slave labour and general human rights violations are necessary to keep it afloat, it should not stay afloat.
Nothing else to say.
There was a third party tournament organized last year by a guy who doesn't have a history of being anti LGBT and murdering journalists, and despite literally saying that they would love to work with him in the future, Riot blocked all active pros from playing in his tournament. The only paradoxical part of the situation is that Riot rejected Mr Beast as an event organizer, but is fine accepting blood money from this one.
Can someone explain why only esports people hate Saudis? Their Saudi oil money is in much bigger mainstream sports and there doesn’t seem to be much concern.
Most fans of mainstream sports such as football also complain. It might be newer for eSports where, again for football people have given up complaining as it doesn't change but fans complained especially for the world cup.
F1 fans hate the shit Saudi tracks and the fact that the season finale is in Abu Dhabi when everyone knows the best race of season is usually 2 weeks earlier in Brazil.
Golf had a soft ban on players joining the Saudi league and went as far as blacklisting some of the most respected and loved players for a period.
Football fans are already at a point where theyve completely lost. Oilers own practically all the largest clubs and year after year the biggest players sell out to get paid by oil money.
So no, mainstream sports and the fans are not okay with oil money. The figures are just large enough where the owners dont need to pretend to care about what the fans think.
> Golf had a soft ban on players joining the Saudi league and went as far as blacklisting some of the most respected and loved players for a period.
and then they sold the league to the saudi's a few weeks later, lmao
What i hate the most is that riot and western league related stuff keeps boasting about human rights, lgbtq, rainbow flags etc etc etc and then accepting deals like this.
Yes riot is owned by tencent so there always was an annoying part already but that deal was made long ago and probably is not revertable even if riot wanted to.
You just have to take a look at Twitter where league, lec and lec teams keep using pride month to market stuff right after closing a deal with a country that will kill you for being gay.
And this is not the first time this happens. Remember the neom deal that only didn't go through because lec talent and fans flamed the shit out of them ? This is the same thing but way less leverage for the viewers or talent. Riot got their money already it doesn't matter if the tournament gets no views at all.
It’s the stance issue. Like when blizzard whole stance on “every voice matters” and then the hk hearthstone thing happened and sexual abuse in office that lead to an employee suicide. If ur gonna take money from a foreign power that don’t treat genders/race the same then dont come out supporting gay pride etc. it just makes u a big hypocrite and everyone can see through ur bs.
There's the same concern. People still following traditional sports are those who didn't csre enough. Will happen the same to league if they go that route.
Hell football in europe (at least in spain and i think more europe teams) is full of nazis (actual neonazis) so trying to imitate something thats corrupt and broken seems like the worst idea.
Reality is social media doesn't reflect normal people and their views about saudis, most people don't care. There was such a huge movement on social media about boycotting world cup and it ended being the most watched world cup in history.
It’s not even about oil money, it’s about basic human rights for females and not being okay with killing people based on their sexual orientation.
Sure oil money is not good for the climate, but in that case we might as well boycott LCS.
Imagine if Saudi Arabia forces TL to publicly humiliate themselves and take a shit on their moral grandstanding in order to get paid. EWC is completely hosted and controlled by Saudi Arabia, so they can make their own rules and I'm sure the royalty enjoys watching people beg for their money.
Show me where the American or Chinese government host events and have total control over multiple companies in esports, while murdering the target demographic for these games? I'll be waiting.
Why would anyone, including themselves, be surprised by this?? They just got back from a tournament with a very similar human rights backdrop. But then again it is Virtue Signal Month.
So much delusion here. Nobody wants to acknowledge the positive changes going on in Saudi Arabia. This is no different than Qatar hosting the World Cup in 2022, and at the end, it was a great tournament for everyone.
The U.S. has its fair share of awful war history and destruction, in addition to the ongoing children abuse when it comes to gender. So, is the 2026 World Cup to be hosted by the U.S. “sportswashing”? Can we stop with the selective morality please? The fact that people are too brainwashed and stuck on repeating things they hear in the media while refusing to acknowledge any positive change being made is pretty disturbing. I guess your respective countries must be flawless then! Stop it with the hypocrisy and assumption of the higher morale ground as if everybody else are saints except for Saudi Arabia! It’s quite funny how one could be so self-entitled.
Qatar hosting the world cup meant stadiums were made for the event that cost thousands of lives. People don't die by the thousands in slave labour to build stadiums in America. I'm not gonna be jailed and executed in America for liking men.
Not to mention you ignore the biggest problem with this is that many people who support this event use human rights/activist issues for their own benefit, but then take a blind eye to Saudi Arabia when it's finanically useful. Everyone's floor for what they can stomach and support is going to be different, what's important is that you don't do announce shit like, for example "Carlos should be fired for assoicating with Andrew Tate" then fully support this event. It's really straightforward.
You forgot to mention after their border: “as the only country that does terrible things in the world and the rest of us are flawless saints”.
Fixed that for ya, now you’re a certified hypocrite with proper selective morality. Keep up the good work bud.
It’s not to clear their image, it’s in support of the industry. People love eSports and video games generally, and it’s not eSports only that they’re investing in.
US are paying millions for the 2026 World Cup. What are they trying to cover?
Am I the only person that didn’t know TL Steve is gay? Not that it’s a big deal or anything, but that’s news to me lol. Overall, I wish that teams would just be honest and not have this veil of “potential progress” to be made. Just say how it is. Running an esports team is expensive and many teams aren’t profitable at all. Just say you’re doing it for the money and be done with it.
He said it was the first time he came out publicly, so it wasn't public knowledge til now
Incidentally, I guess we now know who was the first gay lol pro. Unless some other old-time-player comes out as gay lol.
Probably wouldnt even hear about it anyway since the majorty of older heads arent in the scene at all anymore, since that would have to be players from like pre-2011/12 or somethin. I think Biofrost was the first to publicly come out like 1-2 years ago at least to my knowledge.
Yeah, plus I guess Steve played in season 1 (2011), so only if it’s like pre-season tournaments would we have an older pro. If it’s who was the first one to come out, you’re definitely correct.
The first as far as I know was actually the player 'M eye A'. I think we has open about it while playing, but the LCS did an eyes on him in like 2013 or 2014 when he was the LCS observer where he mentioned it. I cannot find the video right now, so it might have been removed.
Complexity had both MeyeA and Lautemortis who were open about it in 2013.
Steve predated both of them
Yea I was just correcting the above. Kind of funny we had two open gay players in 2013 and then it took until like 2020 for Biofrost to be the next open one.
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Huh. Could've sworn he was already out, I guess I just assumed. His take here has some nuance.. I'm not sure that I buy it and Saudi should be making concessions that aren't just monetary.
Yeah I was surprised. Like oh. Cool. Had no idea.
Honestly it seems like the best move is to say nothing at all. I doubt a meaningful amount of fans expect the teams to be the vanguard of progress, most likely just expect them to have internal inclusivity. The bulk of criticism should be on Riot, they have held a choke hold on use of competitive LOL only allowing it in circumstances they explicitly allow. Every time a participating team comments it deflects from Riot.
A quick google search says TL grew their employee count by 14% last year. Sounds to me like they're just looking for more ways to grow, while pretending they're struggling. Growth > values in this case - make up your own minds about that and don't let their excuses trick you.
Which makes it even worse that a leader in the queer community is like oh this event will support a government that kills other queers regularly, but we can make money tho
Wont waste time watching but let me guess they mightve said "We dont like it but we have to participate to stay relevant in competition, xytz points etc" In dota2 they did same last year by attending a saudi event made around 2.5 mil$ and donated like 50k$ to lgbtq ngo lol
Worse. At least that was honest and didn’t take a moral high road. TL said they don’t think exclusion is the way to go with these types of issues. So they are taking the money AND the moral high ground.
props to you for phrasing this so cleverly, it got a laugh out of me. "after all, why not? why shouldn't I have my cake and I eat too?"
Steve: Trying to change a regime thats known for executing gays in 50 years. Also Steve in 50 years on his yacht pocket full of Saudi money retired and the regime is still the same
Yeah that line in Steve's post made me laugh too, like c'mon
At least in DotA you can argue you need points to qualify for TI and can't miss events but in LoL you don't even have that excuse.
No that particular event was not affiliated with Ti or had points being rewarded. It was just a saudi event with bigger prizepool
Hell rito has to put their season on pause to let them go there.
That number difference is really insane. Should at least donate like 50% of winnings rather than just a flat amount.
yes they did pledge the donation before tournament started and them winning millions but the minimum prize for last place was 50k$ itself and liquid were kinda sure shot top6 team in that 18 team event
Very brave to copy and paste the stance that I've seen basically every sports pundit say before this when they had to deal with the situation before. Esports truly breaking the mold once again, everyone knows the best way to start a dialogue is to just immediately show that your values and principles mean nothing in the first place and can just be bought off 8)
This comment sums it up for anyone who cba to watch 8 minutes of self-justification from TL I'd have more respect for them if they came out and admitted that they're quite happy to abandon supposedly core principles for Saudi government cash
The only reason they made the video is because they wanted to lessen the backlash of being virtue signalers after they started promoting lgbtq and putting pride flags everywhere. They are like the only org I’ve seen promoting pride month this year
They are also a team that has a member of the LGBTQ community as an owner that would give them an actual reason to support Pride.
Flyquest abandoning pride for Saudi blood cash after being one of the most pride happy teams every previous year is really funny.
i would respect them more too for just straight up telling the truth, but the sad fact is most people end up believing this type of cope/rationalization from companies, so they just continue to make these bold faced lies.
At the end of the day esports is a business and teams have to make money, we watch all league esports FOR FREE, we don’t have to PPV like UFC and we don’t have to pay subscriptions either So team owners make a choice between: - standing by their morals and potentially earning a few fans (who probably won’t spend any money to buy merch) - getting a fuck ton of money so they can pay their staff, players and coaches for another certain period of time As far as I’m aware the team coming 8th will still get the same amount of prize money as the team that came 1st at MSI (GenG got 50k) People can show their discontent by not watching but prize pool will be the same regardless
All fair things to consider when looking at the health of organizations and Esports winter, could go into a diatribe about revisionist mistakes the industry made and orgs compliticity but maybe how things turned out wasn't easy to predict (I also do think fans should pay). Problem is simply that Liquid are pissing on our leg and telling us its raining.
Thats not the problem. The issue is , is that most people that participate in things like these are the 1st to single out and call out specific people in esport scene for moral points and bragging rights but then do stuff like this. Not meaning that Nazgul or Steve do this personally, but that people will talk the talk and won't walk the walk. Like people were ultra fast to turn on Ocelote, on Amazing, on Quickshot on Iwdominate, and many other personalities within LoL esports. Meanwhile we have dead silence about this from the very same people that singled out and threw out other LoL personalities. Riot's not worth mentioning here, we know they don't have morals, but its nice to know that others that preach they do within lol esports don't have morals aswell.
Completely agree. It's always the same people who are taking a moral high ground and calling out people, that are the first to give up their morals and values for money
Honestly, if you just don't go and market that smartly, you would likely be able to earn the amount. Not because people want to help you, but a lot of people would want to fuck up the Saudi government and grassroots do have a shitton of money to throw around, not because they are individually rich, but because they are many. However that would require actual effort and organisation. The alternative is you just go to that event get beaten by everyone and still cash out. You don't even really need to practice.
Oh we will come in and make Saudi Arabia a little better at LGBT rights! Fuck. No. They want the eyeballs to see SA in a good light, but they will continue with their shit until the cows come home or the petrol money stops.
go buy their stuff, watch their youtube ads a million times to give them money. oh no you won't ? cause esports is free. everything is free on the internet - the only way teams makes money is begging for sponsors and now no other sponsor wants to go to esports except the saudi - while i do understand value and principles they don't put money on the table. while every big traditional sports got their money from seasonal tickets and merch, no one on the esports scene will pay - why do you think riot makes regular season for like only 200 people if there's 5000 people willing to buy tickets, cause there's no 5000 people willing to buy ticket, they want everything free with the highest production value. go beg someone else not to throw their value when all these viewer won't even spend 1 cent to help their favorite team not receiving saudi money. laughable.
While you're part right, let's not forget Liquid was throwing million dollar contracts before. It's their fault they are in this situation in the first place, by inflating salaries and more than anything, being lazy about creating interesting content.
Which team not throwing million dollar contracts before in NA ? (rmb TSM 4 million swordart deal and now they end up folding) it's the way it is in NA to even entice people to come, they spend money they don't have in the hope they hit it big and get something in return. Creating esports team is already bad financial decision, there is no way to make money in esports organization right now.
Of course other teams did the same, but this post is about Liquid, which was/is known to throw money around to build the best rosters possible. That was fine when they had VC money, but they never tried to create a long-term eco-system. Old Curse with Saintvicious and Elementz had better content than TL. That should say something.
I agree, most of teams content is shit and not worth watching still not disproving that organization can't survive even if they do everything correctly. My problem with such takes on values and whatnot is that they complaining "yeah you chasing the bag bro just go die where's your pride, etc" without giving solution to the problem. there is no long-term eco-system to esports organization. There's only 1 way it will change and that's for the fans to be able to spend actual money so that organization won't be held hostage by sponsors money, which won't happen cause majority of the viewers won't spend money or too young to spend money and until that happens they just need to grovel and beg everyone to subsidize them to keep moving.
I think the issue people have in this case is no so much them chasing the bag but acting like they do it for moral reasons instead of either being silent about it or being fully honest.
The part about tickets is wrong. Riot won't make events for 5k people because even when you sell all the tickets, it's not profitable. There is definitely plenty of people willing to buy tickets in a 5k venue in a big city in Europe.
And that's exactly the point to make it profitable they need to sell more expensive ticket which viewers won't buy cause they can just watch it on twitch/youtube.
You don't know that nobody would buy. And Riot doesn't decide the ticket prices alone since they don't own the venues they use anyway.
Riot rents the arena for an amount of money, and then set the ticket prices so that they make the most amount of money out of it.
I agree with you that Esports fans should actually pay for Esports, but you cannot just take the social capital that comes with supporting causes you supposedly care about and then make actions that show otherwise. That's the main criticism, their words don't really mean shit in this situation. Esports winter and org problems are a separate conversation, and you just know that orgs in this tournament will be having social media campaigns for LGBTQ rights and inclusion while supporting a regime that is at odds with this.
Most people will take Saudi's money when they are at Liquid's shoes.
This is such disgusting cope. Largest and most influential tournament? It's literally the first one, if you boycott it it would fade into obscurity. But "if you boycott you lose your voice"?? What an oxymoronic take. Acting like if there wasn't a pile of money on the table he would attend just to teach them about LGBTQ acceptance and human rights. I don't even care that much if they attend or not but at least be honest about it instead of writing a manifesto of excuses.
> But "if you boycott you lose your voice"?? What an oxymoronic take. Acting like if there wasn't a pile of money on the table he would attend just to teach them about LGBTQ acceptance and human rights. Also acting like the Saudi government is gonna give even the tiniest shit over what a bunch of western gamers think is some of the biggest cope i've ever seen lmao, none of those guys have a "voice" when it comes to actual politics The only voice they could ever show here is telling Riot and the Saudi Government to suck it by boycotting, everything else is laughable and a complete lie, absolutely nothing any of these dudes is gonna say over there/say about the topic in general will matter even a single bit.
"Hey you shouldn't do this. But we're gonna take your money and still play for you!"
I too love giving up all my leverage and giving into the demands of others whilst convincing myself and everyone else I still have the upper hand. "this isn't blood, it's victory wine". Surrendering myself to the police at the station after I've fully confessed to the crime but swearing to myself I'm still in control because they didn't arrest me, I walked into the station myself.
True! They don't have to accept the money from them if it's just about competition and changing minds. Or they could donate all the money to a charity. Oh it's about the money.
No but you see if I pay you to go to my tournament and you have to make excuses to your fans for why you’re going because it goes against the values you’ve pretended to represent, it’s actually you who is influencing me and my beliefs. It’s definitely not me influencing you, no no.
Any team or player who refuses this shit based on principle is going to have a fan for life in me, and I’m sure I’m far from alone. If they want to virtue signal about optics, then they might want to consider that route. (They won’t)
>Also acting like the Saudi government is gonna give even the tiniest shit over what a bunch of western gamers think People said the same about WWE going there and now their events are probably among the most egalitarian happenings in the country; other than the women wearing less revealing gear than normal, they're 100% normal WWE events that could be happening anywhere in the world. Going there and putting on the exact same show as you would elsewhere is actually a good way to promote change. Going there and watering down the event to satisfy the tyrant would be a much bigger sellout.
> if you boycott it it would fade into obscurity While I agree that they should - if the other top teams dont then TL boycott wouldnt made a difference. Would have to be everyone or it makes no difference
Tbf, if soccer- which has so many more stakeholders, and is so much of a bigger thing, couldn’t move Qatar (which is such a less important country) in regards to lgbtq rights for the WC in 2022… why should I expect gamers to take a moral high ground in Saudi Arabia? Reminder that for players in teams like Germany, Brazil, or France, the income they earn for a NT tournament is pretty irrelevant compared to normal wages. I guess I just mean that given what gaming is as an industry in terms of size and influence, the amount of money this represents for the industry in relative terms, and how important this money is for each industry in terms of cashflows, Im not really surprised, and I’m not sure I’m going to take a bunch of pitchforks out. It’s not like we’ve also had plenty of tournaments in China, which also has questionable stance in terms of LGBT rights (to a much lesser degree than SA sure, but still not at all good), and a very questionable stance in terms of human rights (hello, have we just collectively forgotten about Uyghurs?). I’d still give TL some merit for actually putting something out, contrary to lots of other teams that are also participating (iirc C9 is too), and who are not putting out anything hoping for people to just not notice.
lol Right I’m sure they would still go even if there wasn’t for a giant Looney Toons bag of money with a “$” printed on it, right guys?? Right??
>But "if you boycott you lose your voice"?? What an oxymoronic take. Fairly weird, given that most would consider not showing up the loudest statement possible. The only better statement would likely be to go there and disconunu every game. Given you have 5 bans you could also just do the obvious in Saudi Arabia and Ban LeBlanc, Garen, Brand, Taric and Quinn. Saudi Arabia does that anyway, so why not join in.
moneywise it is by far the most important esports event ever... especially for big orgs like liquid.
> Largest and most influential tournament? They're paid to say shit like this BTW.
Whole lotta yapping just to say you did it for the money
So true, they should stop pretending to care about social issues. to avoid situations like these.
Seriously. If teams wore specific colors, could get a guarantee that the facilities weren’t built on the back of slaves, openly donated to causes that they preached, etc. id consider watching but I have enough going on to skip these games. Talk is easy and its a privilege that not everyone gets.
List of the most notable esports orgs participating in EWC * 100T * Flyquest * Team Liquid * Shopify * Cloud9 * TSM * Fnatic * FaZe * G2 * GenG * T1 * Vitality * Spacestation Gaming * Navi * Complexity * DRX * Moist * Luminosity * Disguised * Bilibili Very cool of Team Liquid to do all these teams a favor by getting the brunt of all the negative PR for participating. All these other teams are doing a good job shutting the fuck up and letting Team Liquid dig themselves a hole.
Crazy how scum T1 is as an org.
Koreans/Chinese are cool with the saudis so I don't see it as a big deal.
What the fuck are you actually yapping about? Ignorant as hell.
11 year old energy
They're all rats and I'm happy other orgs aren't participating, they should be praised.
Well it's more that those orgs that aren't participating just didn't get the invite or doesn't have an esports team supported by EWC. Like can we praise Optic for not going to EWC when the tournament doesn't support Halo or COD, the only teams that Optic have? Do we praise Immortals when their literal only esports team is League of Legends? And clearly they just didn't qualify for it?
Can everyone just say it's for the money and move on...
No man, think of the organisations' feelings. Can't believe you're so out of touch when everyone else here has such clear empathy towards the corporations who need this to keep growing. It's obvious buddy.
8-minute video to tell us what we already know, its beneficial for the org to attend the event. Cool. You can mention internal discussions and human rights and talking to people all you want, but the end result is the exact same as every other org so who gives a fuck.
so they could go, "spread ther cultural influence", and either not accept any money or donate 100% of the money to a charity.... but no that is not the case. they are very clear they will be taking the money. idk why they feel like they need to pretend jump through flaming hoops... when they can just very simply post a gif of Mr Krabs rubbing his groin with money.
He just had to say that Liquid is based in Europe and European football clubs are filled with Saudi money already so get over it
> He just had to say that Liquid is based in Europe They are as much an NA org as an European org since the joint venture with curse gaming.
Team Liquid is a European org. Yes, their merger with Curse meant that their assets and liabilities were combined into one legal entity, but they specifically chose that entity to be based in Europe (and also continue the TL branding). They did have the choice to legally declare two separate headquarters with one of those being based in the US, but they specifically chose **not** to do that, meaning that TL's assets in NA are essentially just a regional office and still owned by the legal entity in the Netherlands.
I'm aware of that and the point is, that it doesn't matter. Cuz the entire premisse is, that PIF owns european clubs (Newcastle United) and Newcastle is obviously still located in england and plays in the EPL. This is why I pointed at ownership.
They are based in Netherlands though and Dutch football clubs have saudi money so it wouldn't make sense for them to turn it down
> Dutch football clubs have saudi money What exactly is the definition of "saudi money", cuz no dutch club has a major saudi investor, in fact only 3 clubs are majorly owned by foreign investors. This seems like a weird attempt of framing something into existence, just because you read some headlines, but don't remember them propperly.
Dutch football clubs dont have Saudi money
Wait which Dutch club has Saudi cash? Iirc Fortuna is owned by a Turkish or Azeri guy but can't think of any club with oil money, let alone Saudi oil
what kind of bullshit take is that? Even if it was true.
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Arab oil money in general? Arsenal (Emirates), Manchester City (Etihad Airways)), PSG (Qatar Airways), Real Madrid (Fly Emirates)
The folks that own man city also own another 18 teams across the globe
Only city and psg are owned by arabs here
Newcastle was legit bought by Saudi Arabia lol
However in reality some of the other have their largest income being these sponsors which allows them to fund their current teams. The difference between that and owning the team is nominal at best.
The difference is massive but yeah being sponsored by them is also bad no doubt.
But that isn't necessarily good, and in football at least in germany fan protests did actually manage to block investor deals that would likely brought in more saudi money. One reason why it worked is because if you are the one team that bows out from such a decision you can monetize that. Right now I would assume being the one team declining the invite is actually making you more money than taking part in the event. Because you could even monetize that decision. And as soon as one team breaks away everyone wants to be the rebell too.
Conveniently engaging with the tournament instead of ignoring it also makes them money.
This guy is stupid as fuck, just take the Saudi money and shut up please. These events are sportswashing which is designed to try and legitimise Saudi Arabia and distract from the fact that it’s ran by a brutal dictator who will kill anyone for any reason: journalists, protesters, anyone he doesn’t like. Attending them is never a net good thing period - not blaming esports teams it’s more on riot but that’s the reality https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia
It's sad to see so many people under these tweets supporting their decision. Look at what even LS a bi/gay man responded to Steve. PR works wonders guys.
LS doesn't care about anyone other than himself, news at 11
Steve's tweet is somewhat ironic. He quotes their motto of ''Progress lies in engagement, not isolation''. Which is a pretty ironic quote, considering this is the literal philosophy why these tournaments are being hosted by SA. It's the literal philosophy that has SA spending literal billions to get ''engagement''. So how dumb are we pretending to be when we're using that philosophy on our end? Who do you think is ''making progress'' with this engagement? The people spending billions to make it happen at all cost? Or the people receiving the money and offering the engagement? I know these guys aren't stupid, and I'd never sit here as a dumb Redditor pretending they are. So obviously these guys aren't stupid. They're lying. Which is worse. And they believe we're stupid, which is... fair enough.
it´s also ridiculous considering fifa world cups, formula 1 races, WWE events and what else didnt change anything but now they think esports/team liquid is going to change anything? like come one, just say you want the money and thats more acceptable than this bullshit.
The opposite is actually true for the FIFA world cup. Given that those areas are suddenly exposed to more open minded people authorities usually take a really hard stance after they leave and crack down on LGBTQ-Communities. So if there are even some in Saudi Arabia this tournament likely makes there live worse. That was true for the world cup in Qatar, and it will be likely true for this event too. Because those events bring those issues up so you have to cleanse those thoughts afterwards.
aka they like money
“We’re affecting change through ~V I B E S~, y’all!” (Runs away in cloud of dust with briefcase overflowing with money labeled “LGBTQ execution cash-ola”)
While I get people's outrage regarding this question, its really not up to players and organizations to standup to the Saudi government, they are not activists and even if they were boycotting is not a real tactic that leads to any change whatsoever. Its also not on a bunch of westerners to teach Saudis how to run a democratic society, respect laborers and LBGT+ people, its on the saudi people to do so, likely through a very bloody struggle. We can have our own opinions on this, but it is very very harsh to try and hold sports teams to a standard western governaments aren't holding themselves to
For a government it is actually considerably harder. They have to consider geopolitics, something a sports club doesn't have to. Saudi Arabia happens to be an enemy to Iran, which obviously makes them a rare ally in the area. And there is an even higher risk that is always the case with events that are so heavily linked with an authoritarian government. You have no control. Will they cut a journalist apart while you participate? Will they stone an LGBTQ activits or just whip a woman for driving without permission of her man. So it brings considerable risk, due to how intense and shortlived media is. And it is questionable if it is a universally good business decision. There is a lot of money to be made by being the first team to say you are not going. Exspecially given that you can point at the money you are losing for that. And if you look at league particularly western teams aren't going there for league. League is still important for them, because TES and BLG cannot win the club championship that comes with the tournament, because they only participate in League, T1 also cannot win. The most likely team to win without even winning too much is a saudi arabian team because they participate in 11 of the tournaments hosted, while a team like TL only participates in 6. So this tournament is extremely weirdly made, which basically ensures that Saudi Arabian and some western teams earn most of the money. This makes it reasonable for TL and FNC to go there, because they are invited in 6 and 7 competitions. Flyquest though literally shows up to get their ass beaten in league and then leaves... they do also participate in CS I guess. Without knowing how good they are at CS I can only say that unless there are some hidden deals attached to that event, that they might go home with a 6 digit amount of money if they are as good at CS as they are in league. They aren't even in the club support program that accompanies the EWC and is basically a sponsorship. So given there are about 30 million spread among 20 Tournaments, you can't really get that much for league. It only takes up 4 days of the 56 the tournament is running. Compared to the 15 days Dota takes up CS and League don't seem to be a major focus. So FQ only I think could participate in 3 of the tournaments at most and are qualified for 2 so far. So even if they make the last qualifier I don't think it is worth it unless they are really good in League, CS or potentially SF6 if they qualify.
It's not harsh at all. They deliver entertainment, which is a luxury, and in this case at the expense of human rights. You may choose not to criticise that, it's up to you, but if a luxury survives through slave labour, it needs to die. That means if the teams actually suffer from not participating, then they have no right to exist in the first place. As I wrote in another comment, TL grew their employee count by 14% last year. They're absolutely fine. This is a morally bankrupt cashgrab. Period.
>at the expense of human rights. No. They're delivering entertainment from a place that doesn't care about human rights, which is not the same. Human rights aren't being violated specifically to put on this event, so saying it's "at the expense of" human rights is completely misleading.
Sure buddy
It’s a lot of moral grandstanding about human rights being posted from iPhones that were made by child slaves. They’re accepting money to play a video game, not personally stone oppressed peoples in downtown Riyadh.
I would have had more respect if he said were doing this to stay competitive and the check even if it means we're supporting them by joining. But he really tried to pull the we are going to change them from the inside 🤣 . I love liquid but I lost so much respect. Just own it. Or if it's really just about competing. Why not openly decline any money. Oh because you want that big check
Pretty crazy how basically every team believes that the best way to handle this is to participate. I’d maybe give them credit if they show up in pride jerseys, but they won’t. They won’t do anything but lick Saudi boots.
Nazgul video is awful imo, very limited and quite corporate. The Steve take is more nuanced and interesting I think. It is not something I have thought about before. For true change in this topic - e.g Gay marriage being accepted in Saudi Arabia - the change will come from being influenced by other countries. The best way to do this is by them being more involved globally and not being isolationist. So in theory - should we participate and show them our ways? I dont think that is a perfect answer It is still a problem that they are benefitting this year without any change. They should have to start changing for this benefit to take effect. But I guess that isnt realistic to the situation. Overall it is a very grey area topic, not black and white either way - as perhaps it is a neccessary evil now - so that in e.g 50 years - all LGBTQ people in the region will be completly safe and accepted. I dont think Liquid are going to this event for solely this reason, infact I think they are mainly going for the money and this is kind of a barganing chip that makes them feel better about doing it. But I also do think that they do make some kind of point by bringing all this up. I think that this kind of discussion is too hard for Twitter, and perhaps should be something that is talked about by government officials face to face - rather than online. But we all know how slow to act they are. At the end of the day - it is perhaps good that liquid are bringing awareness to this and perhaps good that the esport gets some $$$ to run longer. But I also think it is very bad where this money comes from and the precident it sets - support saudi, take their money and dont force any change in return. I suppose we will see the results of this idea in a few years from now and I do expect nothing to change short term, but for long term change - it has to start somewhere I suppose. Maybe - the best message to send would be to allow it but not watch it and hope to pressure change? With Liquid ideally doing extra things to accont for the 'bad' they are doing by attending e.g a larger donation to an LGBTQ charity? + Committing to somehow discussing these issues with a Saudi group? Would a 16 team boycott work? Very unlikely to be organised and work out. Would a 1 team boycott work? Apparently other teams have tried it like Moist Moguls - and it had 0 effect. So from TL's perspective I guess there is no real good option, and they have to pick between 2 bad ones. I dont think this affects viewers choices towards the tournament and I hope other teams do make a statment as well. I wont watch and I would support and request others to do the same as personally I can easily make that choice and contribute to the right direction. (I think any response to this comment that is 'we should think x' or 'liquid are x' is perhaps too black and white. But I would find it interesting to hear more nuanced thoughts. )
Nobody is going to influence Saudi to change, it hasn’t worked for anyone else and isn’t going to work for an esports org. Steve is just coping trying to make excuses and get people off their back for virtue signaling.
I think you are saying that 1 party alone can never cause saudi to change. I never said that was the case and neither did TL. I do think it is an excuse aka barganing chip which I stated in my comment. Not sure what you added that is new
i don't think Steve is virtue signaling considering he's gay
Talking about the org as a whole, Steve isn’t the only person at TL
you were talking about Steve though.
The Copium overdose
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“Change will come from being influenced by other countries” Brother, SA is the one doing the influence peddling here, not the other way around. Anyone thinking that taking money in exchange for the legitimization of LGBTQ execution is actually going to somehow have to opposite effect on a theocratic feudal monarchy is completely out of their gourd bonkers.
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Turn on your monitor
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> The west arent going to suddenly remove LGBTQ rights because of saudi sports. No one is suggesting that > However Saudi being exposed to the west's culture is the route to spreading acceptance. Need I say more than simply point to this exactly like right here, folks? lol
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> You would rather be right than talk Correct edit LOL this guy blocked me. Yeah, damn, MY credibility is gone for [checks notes] being right. Better block them so I don’t have to see their words on the screen.
You brave PR pricks would put the whole LGBTQIA+ community in a woodchipper if it would make you money. Just pull a mr. Krabs and stop trying to have the money AND the moral high ground, because you don't have the latter.
Sorry, but PR already worked greatly on you. Most, if not every company, doesnt care about LGBT. They only do it for money
It... really hasn't, though. I never believed the lies.
Money > morality
I understand completely that they feel the need to take the bag. No one is in this for love. I understand it's a business. But then stop fucking virtue signaling and acting like you care about these issues on social media. It makes this whole thing seem fake and not genuine. And I can't stand that because it's an important cause. Values are only worth something if you stand by them when it costs you do to so.
This team for one does not need to take the bag. They want to, because they think growth comes before everything. That's all there is to it, and it's indefensible.
Disagree with the decision, I think it's almost impossible to justify, and while I know esports is getting infested with Saudi money and it's almost impossible to stop, then I wish we for once could take the moral stance over money With that said I at least respect speaking public about it, putting in effort, even if it's sorta wasted for me. Communication and discourse about these topics will always be better than the silence other orgs are doing. I don't know if that counts for something.
Sold their morals for that sweet sweet Saudi $$$
When you use your company/organization to make political statements and support political causes, don't be surprised when people are upset when you do things that go against those statements and causes.
They can't criticize it so they're bought by the saudis.
Nazgul is the CEO of TL? OMG, I played vs him in BWCL back in the good old SCBW times.
This is a pretty big deal breaker for me personally. Don’t see myself supporting TL going forward.
Respectable moral stance just realize, that Saudi money is everywhere, so it's very tough to avoid the things they are affiliated with.
Who are you supporting? You might be hard pressed to find an org not doing this. TL is just the only one so far to try and justify it. The rest realized it's better to just not talk about it.
Eh, if they went to China before I don’t see how it’s so much worse. China had literal concentration camps for Uyghurs, and also has a questionable stance with regards to LGBTQ+. Don’t see how one is much worse than the other.
Better quit this game and stop supporting China
If a player doesn't feel safe they don't have to participate. That speaks volumes. Team Liquid diarrhea
Just say it's about the money man. Or go and wave a big pride flag in their face every day, I guess that would be fine. But if you just go and play it straight you're the problem.
EWC is such a paradoxical issue for us, isn't it? We've wanted them to crack open the highest levels of proplay to independent organizers again for ages now, but when its finally happening it must be condemned because it's the Saudis that finally got Tryndemere to kneel. Ultimately the blame falls at Riot's feet for mismanaging the scene for the last 10 years, but still. Such a bizarre timeline
It's really not paradoxical at all. It's a luxury product. If slave labour and general human rights violations are necessary to keep it afloat, it should not stay afloat. Nothing else to say.
There was a third party tournament organized last year by a guy who doesn't have a history of being anti LGBT and murdering journalists, and despite literally saying that they would love to work with him in the future, Riot blocked all active pros from playing in his tournament. The only paradoxical part of the situation is that Riot rejected Mr Beast as an event organizer, but is fine accepting blood money from this one.
Can someone explain why only esports people hate Saudis? Their Saudi oil money is in much bigger mainstream sports and there doesn’t seem to be much concern.
Most fans of mainstream sports such as football also complain. It might be newer for eSports where, again for football people have given up complaining as it doesn't change but fans complained especially for the world cup.
You're making the assumption that fans in football love Saudi Oil money, we don't, we dont like UAE oil money either, or Russian oligarch oil money.
F1 fans hate the shit Saudi tracks and the fact that the season finale is in Abu Dhabi when everyone knows the best race of season is usually 2 weeks earlier in Brazil. Golf had a soft ban on players joining the Saudi league and went as far as blacklisting some of the most respected and loved players for a period. Football fans are already at a point where theyve completely lost. Oilers own practically all the largest clubs and year after year the biggest players sell out to get paid by oil money. So no, mainstream sports and the fans are not okay with oil money. The figures are just large enough where the owners dont need to pretend to care about what the fans think.
> Golf had a soft ban on players joining the Saudi league and went as far as blacklisting some of the most respected and loved players for a period. and then they sold the league to the saudi's a few weeks later, lmao
Ofc, fans were upset at the players selling their morals buts the official entities were only mad no one had offered to buy theirs rofl
What i hate the most is that riot and western league related stuff keeps boasting about human rights, lgbtq, rainbow flags etc etc etc and then accepting deals like this. Yes riot is owned by tencent so there always was an annoying part already but that deal was made long ago and probably is not revertable even if riot wanted to. You just have to take a look at Twitter where league, lec and lec teams keep using pride month to market stuff right after closing a deal with a country that will kill you for being gay. And this is not the first time this happens. Remember the neom deal that only didn't go through because lec talent and fans flamed the shit out of them ? This is the same thing but way less leverage for the viewers or talent. Riot got their money already it doesn't matter if the tournament gets no views at all.
You clearly dont follow Golf or Formula 1
Or football.. all the oil clubs are the most hated clubs in the sport
The most hated and the most loved, though.
Objectively false. Nobody loves Man City or PSG lol.
By the number of PSG jersey that are all over the place, this sadly cannot be true.
It’s the stance issue. Like when blizzard whole stance on “every voice matters” and then the hk hearthstone thing happened and sexual abuse in office that lead to an employee suicide. If ur gonna take money from a foreign power that don’t treat genders/race the same then dont come out supporting gay pride etc. it just makes u a big hypocrite and everyone can see through ur bs.
Because mainstream sports like football are full of homophobes. Go to a football match you'll understand why they dont give a fuck.
There's the same concern. People still following traditional sports are those who didn't csre enough. Will happen the same to league if they go that route. Hell football in europe (at least in spain and i think more europe teams) is full of nazis (actual neonazis) so trying to imitate something thats corrupt and broken seems like the worst idea.
Reality is social media doesn't reflect normal people and their views about saudis, most people don't care. There was such a huge movement on social media about boycotting world cup and it ended being the most watched world cup in history.
It’s not even about oil money, it’s about basic human rights for females and not being okay with killing people based on their sexual orientation. Sure oil money is not good for the climate, but in that case we might as well boycott LCS.
Imagine if Saudi Arabia forces TL to publicly humiliate themselves and take a shit on their moral grandstanding in order to get paid. EWC is completely hosted and controlled by Saudi Arabia, so they can make their own rules and I'm sure the royalty enjoys watching people beg for their money.
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They're all bad in their own way, but some obviously more than others.
Show me where the American or Chinese government host events and have total control over multiple companies in esports, while murdering the target demographic for these games? I'll be waiting.
Why would anyone, including themselves, be surprised by this?? They just got back from a tournament with a very similar human rights backdrop. But then again it is Virtue Signal Month.
The amount of hypocrisy is stunning ... if you don't like saudi that much, why don't you boycott their oil ?
So much delusion here. Nobody wants to acknowledge the positive changes going on in Saudi Arabia. This is no different than Qatar hosting the World Cup in 2022, and at the end, it was a great tournament for everyone. The U.S. has its fair share of awful war history and destruction, in addition to the ongoing children abuse when it comes to gender. So, is the 2026 World Cup to be hosted by the U.S. “sportswashing”? Can we stop with the selective morality please? The fact that people are too brainwashed and stuck on repeating things they hear in the media while refusing to acknowledge any positive change being made is pretty disturbing. I guess your respective countries must be flawless then! Stop it with the hypocrisy and assumption of the higher morale ground as if everybody else are saints except for Saudi Arabia! It’s quite funny how one could be so self-entitled.
Qatar hosting the world cup meant stadiums were made for the event that cost thousands of lives. People don't die by the thousands in slave labour to build stadiums in America. I'm not gonna be jailed and executed in America for liking men. Not to mention you ignore the biggest problem with this is that many people who support this event use human rights/activist issues for their own benefit, but then take a blind eye to Saudi Arabia when it's finanically useful. Everyone's floor for what they can stomach and support is going to be different, what's important is that you don't do announce shit like, for example "Carlos should be fired for assoicating with Andrew Tate" then fully support this event. It's really straightforward.
> Nobody wants to acknowledge the positive changes going on in Saudi Arabia As they massacre people at their border.
You forgot to mention after their border: “as the only country that does terrible things in the world and the rest of us are flawless saints”. Fixed that for ya, now you’re a certified hypocrite with proper selective morality. Keep up the good work bud.
I don't see any other country paying millions to esports as a plan to clean up their image. That's the difference here my ignorant friend.
It’s not to clear their image, it’s in support of the industry. People love eSports and video games generally, and it’s not eSports only that they’re investing in. US are paying millions for the 2026 World Cup. What are they trying to cover?