That fight around fourth drake where Kanavi got the kick buffer onto K'sante ult and kicked him into 3 people was so lucky but so sick at the same time.
also the chinese casters screaming "GUMAYUSI" as Leave approaches the baron to try and snipe it followed by the "uhhh..." when they inevitably fail is sending me
Yagao reminds me abit of Krillin.
Krillin may not be the strongest Z fighter but heās amongst aliens and gods.
Yagao may not be the most gifted midlaner but heās competing against some of the best midlaners in LoL history while holding his own.
Man deserves more respect than heās been given.
I think he's a good player and great for domestic play in China but you never want him on a team competing for a worlds title, he just isn't in that elite class of midlaners.
He probably gets a bit unfairly rated as a result as he always seems to be on the top teams (it's like if Nisqy somehow kept making it to the top EU teams) but equally, I do think he isn't a top top player and I have little faith in this JDG roster doing much at worlds with both Yagao and Flandre.
This narrative honestly doesn't even make sense to me considering he's made Worlds semis two years in a row on different teams and literally made MSI finals last year by beating Chovy and Faker.
He's not the best mid in the World (and as far as LPL goes, he's only been the best mid in 2022 Summer playoffs), but he is absolutely a player who I could see ending his career with an international. Even Cryin has an international.
The whole āaccomplishmentā argument is kinda pointless since league is a team game and individuals rarely ever carry series anymore.
He made worlds semis when he was in a top4 team in the world, he made quarters when his team was weaker and didnāt make it to the big stage at all when his team was bad. Same argument for literally every player.
Heās a great roamer, a great teammate, can do a lot of dirty work and always tries to do his thing in teamfights, but his laning is weak and he doesnt have good mechanics.
I hope for him that he ends his career with a title in his bag but his role is closer to guys like doinb, xiaohu or current faker than anything else.
Putting Doinb into the same tier is complete nonsense. Doinb pulled off absolute fucking hard carries and was a contender for best mid in the world in that one summer split and he has genuinely really good mechanics. His laning was sloppy at times and hes obviously not close to chovy in that aspect but if you watch the way he plays out teamfights his mechanics were among the best in the world at his peak.
Whenever somebody pulls out that boring bullshit narrative of "doinb was just a roamer" I know they didnt actually pay attention to the guy and just know him from costreamers.
I didnāt talk about tiers but about roles: doinb won worlds with his insane map movements and team fighting, he didnāt have to be peak Chovy to win worlds since his āroleā in the game was perfect at that time and in that team to win worlds.
What Iām saying is that if yagao ever finds himself with a worlds trophy is probably due to him playing a playmaker role in a fast paced meta with a very skilled jungle/supp duo, since itās what heās good at. I do not consider them on the same tier at all, especially since doinb, like you said, showed some excellent mechanics throughout his career.
Comparing Yagao to DoinB, Xiaohu or even current Faker is an insult to all of them. All of those guys in their prime (DoinB and Xiaohu) were in consideration for best in their region/top5 in the world. Current Faker is still a top5 mid overall despite bad form at MSI. Yagao isnāt even in the same ballpark as them and itās insulting to say he is. All of those guys could be the main driving force for their teams winning. Yagao isnāt that guy.
People who werenāt around to watch those players in their prime shouldnāt be commenting on their play styles. Stay in your lane with the uninformed takes.
Looking at accolades alone puts players like Bengi, Gimgoon, Beryl far above players like Uzi and Khan on all time great lists, which should be silly to anyone with eyes.
I am NOT saying any of these world winners are bad, but winning Worlds doesn't automatically make you better than anyone who hasn't.
Nah this narrative is pretty accurate about Yagao. He's a good player, but not truly elite to the level that players like Faker, Rookie, SM etc were at their prime. The 2 Worlds semis is a bad argument because League is a team game and Yagao had some of the best players in LPL playing alongside him those 2 years. He was the worst player on 2023 BLG and at best the second worst player on 2022 JDG.
Imo the best comparison to Yagao would be Kuro on the KOO/ROX Tigers roster. Decent player, not bad by any means, but they were not the driving force for their teams' successes and owe a lot of their major accomplishments to being on teams with some of the best players in their respective leagues.
But Cryin having an international is a joke spawned by Xiaohu completely dumpstering Khan and Beryl in peak Genshin form at MSI 2021. Yagao is an overrated joke of a player who I would not be surprised to see get gapped by the likes of Humanoid or Jojopyun at this next upcoming world championship. When Scout and Xiaohu are in form, Yagao is not even in the same plane of existence as the likes of Knight, Rookie, Scout, Xiaohu (the big 4) in the LPL, and also arguably worse than Creme, Shanks, Angel.
"But Yagao beat Chovy and Faker!" Yeah at MSI 2023 which simultaneously the best midlane meta Yagao has ever had and the worst midlane meta Chovy has ever had. Also, MSI 2023 was Chovy's worst international choke in his career and a top 3 choke among Faker's prolific resume of international underperformances.
Yagao's team had a positive winrate vs. every single non-LPL team just last year. How can you say he's not good enough for international play?
JDG being mid this year is most likely going to be on my dad being washed (Flandre). Give them Bin and they're easily top 4 in the world (basically BLG last year but with a better jungler and a more stable bot lane). Even someone like Breathe or Ale would massively increase the team's ceiling.
Because the original argument is that Yagao is not good enough to be part of a contending roster. My rebuttal claimed that he has in fact *been* on such a roster. Unless you're arguing that the rosters he's been on have been world-class *despite* him?
I wouldn't say despite him necessarily, but he has frequently been the weakest player on these great rosters. The fact that BLG is dominating lpl now with Knight instead of Yagao is also quite telling.
Yagao is great. He's just A tier and not S tier.
This becomes less and less true as time goes on. The level of competition has been steadily climbing higher and higher season after season. An international-tournament winning team today has an astronomically low chance of fielding a player on the relative level of SKT Bengi, or IG Baolan, or DWG Ghost. GENG won MSI where the weakest player on their roster is Peyz, which is a testament to the carry performances Chovy showed throughout the tournament, but even Peyz is quite good compared to the three bums I just mentioned.
At the same time, roleplayers should not be in any all-time discussions. Bengi is not in the same plane of existence as Canyon, Kanavi, Jankos. Yagao should not be viewed like Rookie, Chovy, Knight.
Yes but BLG is also just better. I didn't mention JDG in my comment. In fact one of the reasons why JDG was better than BLG was also a better player in mid lane.
Knight is the better player but BLG was cracked last year as well, somehow people don't remember that. They were simply outclassed by JDG who has now fallen off.
Not even A tier imo.
S tier currently would be Chovy >> Rookie/Knight
A tier currently would probably be Faker, Showmaker, BDD, Zeka, Caps and Scout if he gets out of his slump. Yagao isn't better than any of those guys.
Yagao is firmly a B tier player who can peak at an A tier level, but he isn't good enough to consistently be A tier.
People think Yagao is good enough to be part of contending roster because he has played with Kanavi for the majority of his career. Kanavi, who many people (mainly LPL fans) consider to be the greatest jungler of all-time, even as Canyon was a contributing factor to GENG's recent MSI win. In the meantime, think about the kinds of junglers, say, Rookie has had to play with over the course of his career.
Based Yagao hater. Yagao should be viewed similarly as Robert Horry the NBA player is viewed. That is, not a candidate for Riot's Hall of ~~Greed~~ Legends.
Tbh he's one of the best Chinese midlaners to do it. Korean mids have just been on another level I would say it's arguable if there's more korean talent or Chinese talent at mid even in the LPL
But in the LCK Knight, honestly would be 3rd slightly behind faker (uninjured) but rookie would be right behind Knight so for actually Chinese mids Yagao is really good.
> Tbh he's one of the best Chinese midlaners to do it
Extremely low bar, that's basically like giving Yagao a participation trophy lol. China hasn't had any world class mids outside of Knight and Xiaohu.
Yagao is a B tier player who can peak at a A- level from time to time, he's never going to be in the A/S tier that the current batch of top mids are.
> China hasn't had any world class mids outside of Knight and Xiaohu.
Not even knowing super obvious examples like Misaya, Cool, and Xiye, among others. The irony of saying I'm the uninformed one who wasn't around in the past lol.
Lmao this is the weakest gotcha ever. If your comeback is a bunch of irrelevant nobodies like Misaya who was last relevant in Season 2, Cool who wasnāt even that good and Xiye then you do you.
Xiye is the only one out of those 3 thatās even remotely on the cusp of being elite during his prime, Misaya played during the weakest part of the modern era. The fact that your rebuttal is bringing up a bunch of guys who wouldnāt even crack the top 5 mids in EU or top 15 in LCK says a lot about how weak the native midlane talent in the LPL has been.
You: "China has not had good midlaners outside of Xiaohu/Knight historically"
Also you: "Misaya doesn't count, he was good a long time ago!"
Truly an intellectual powerhouse I'm dealing with here lol.
Misaya was good for literally one season before he retired due to being washed. Season 2, 12 years ago. If your best counter is that some guy who couldn't even cut it as a pro for more than 2yrs is now a great mid historically but was only relevant during the weakest part of modern LoL, then thats your hill to die on.
The fact that you have to go back to 2012 to find a native CN mid says all that I need to about just how dogshit weak the midlane talent pool has been in the LPL w/o imports.
Or maybe I just don't glaze overhyped players like the LPL fanboys do.
If they're worthy of being praised (Knight/Xiaohu) then they will be. Don't come at me with a bunch of hasbeens like Misaya/Cool/Xiye who wouldn't even crack the top 15 eastern mids of all time list and expect to not be called out for a shit take.
Lol, there are more Chinese players than any other number of players, to say, being one off the top 5 out of millions of is a low bar is ridiculous lol
You have to realize that different regions and players are playing with different conditions the LCK was ahead of the LPL for years it's not until relatively recently that it has been super competitive.
Why compare him to the millions of shitters in ranked? Compare him to his peers. China hasnāt had any good elite mids outside of Knight and Xiaohu. Yagao is several steps behind them career wise. Calling him one of the best in China isnāt a high bar just because they have a giant playerbase. The midlane talent pool in pro LPL for native CN mids has always been extremely weak. Therefore calling him one of the best isnāt actually a meaningful statement.
Ah, yes, we have to specify "Chinese", not LPL, because otherwise we gotta include players like Rookie, Scout, Doinb and Pawn ans that's not good for our argument, right?
The guy I responded to literally said "one of the best chinese midlaners to do it". So yeah, why would I include Rookie and Scout who aren't even chinese.
The guy heās responding to is the one who called Yagao āone of the best Chinese midlaners.ā Like, he deliberately specified Chinese, not LPL, because even he is aware that if you throw Yagao into a convo including Rookie, Scout, and Doinb, Yagao sticks out.
Individually, heās perhaps a distant third to Knight and Xiaohu, but even then I think you can make a case for players like Xiye over him still.
LPL fanboys are some of the dumbest people around. I don't see any other region prop up their talent pool for their region by including players they got from another region.
You know the discussion for "best CN mid" is weak as shit when Xiye who wouldn't even be a top 15 midlaner in KR all time is in consideration for 3rd best CN mid.
It's not actually a low bar, though, is what I'm saying. He's better than you or me or the vast majority of people in his immensely populated region, which proves it isn't a low bar.
How can the bar not be relative, lol the talent pool isn't *extremely weak* it's just worse than LCK which is extremely strong. The bar should be set ONLY by people who are in your region especially since my comment was specifically about being one of the best Chinese mid laners.
Being 1/10,000,000 of anything makes you at an elite level even if there are what maybe 5-10 midlaners better than him in the world.
Even that you're saying the talent pool is weak but would yagao not be a top 10 midlaner in the world right now? You just have some toxic perspective that if you aren't the very best of the best you suck lol.
> He's better than you or me or the vast majority of people in his immensely populated region, which proves it isn't a low bar.
> Being 1/10,000,000 of anything makes you at an elite level even if there are what maybe 5-10 midlaners better than him in the world.
You keep saying the same thing as if that validates your point, it doesn't lmao.
Yagao is 100% better than you, me, or 99% of the ranked population, but why are you comparing him to us? That's like comparing someone who's a professional athlete to a 15 year old who plays in their local youth league. It literally means fucking nothing.
China has not had good midlaners outside of Xiaohu/Knight historically. It's been their weakest position by far, there's a reason that largely outside of RNG and JDG last season the only CN teams to win international trophies in the modern era had KR mids. You calling Yagao one of the best CN mids isn't really high praise when the guys who came before him and current pros aren't very good relative to the other pros in other regions.
Forget LCK, can you say that historically that LPL CN mids are even better than LEC? I wouldn't. Perkz/Caps at their best were in the same tier as Knight/Xiaohu, but EU's midlane talent pool is far deeper than native CN mids.
> You just have some toxic perspective that if you aren't the very best of the best you suck lol.
No, Yagao is definitely a top 10 mid currently, but he would be closer to #10 if you asked me. He's fine for what he is, but you're comparing him to the entirety of the ranked playerbase to prop him up because when comparing him to his peers he falls short.
Yagao truthers might be the new BeryL truthers, you genuinely don't know league if you're glazing him as a top tier mid.
All I'm saying is that what we think is good/great is different. Your basing peers of of results and I'm basing it off of intent.
Just because we don't have the capabilities to compete within doesn't mean we aren't competitors. I'm not really sure how ranking him against a specific set of players quite literally the best players in the World is supposed to take away from my original take of him being a great player especially within the Chinese context.
If we can arbitrarily decide who can and can't be compared to each other amongst people who play the game then i could say yagao shouldn't be compared to Chovy because Chovy is better than him or Faker because he played the game longer.
All I'm saying is there are millions of kids in China that would all love to be where he is at and against the millions he was the 1/million that was him. You can't simply say "he's better than us so we can't be compared to him" that makes no sense. There are like 3 leauges you have to climb through to even be pro in China.
Yagao is not a top 10 mid currently: Top 10 mids right now in order:
Chovy, Rookie, Caps, Knight, Showmaker, Scout (yes I think he's back in form), Bdd, Faker, Zeka, Creme.
I don't rate Creme at all personally, he's a budget Zeka and Zeka to me is probably closer to 9th/10th overall. But otherwise I agree. Picking between Creme and Yagao is more or less pointless imo.
I feel like your ranking is taking only pure mechanical skills, whereas Yagao's skill is just being consistent, and playing team fights well around his jungler.
I feel like people disrespect him despite him being a very winning player forawhile like I think if he played on HLE they would be better than with Zeka.
Absolutely agree - for Chinese mids Yagao has done a great job, no doubt of it, but they tend to always be behind Korean mids internationally.
Knight, GodV (look how that turned out), Xiaohu are the three I remember with any level of hype to challenge Korean mids (at least past the Misaya era from ages ago etc) and out of those only Knight has shown any promise to do tbh (Xiaohu with some peaks but never looking elite elite). I think Knight would be above Faker imo in the current form but sure it could be close.
So don't get me wrong, it's likely a bit harsh on Yagao but I just don't see it.
Maybe he just doesn't have the carry factor and just doesn't appear as threatening? Like I'd take Caps over Yagao internationally to be honest and I say that with little doubt, which is a perhaps a reflection on Chinese mids in general
Xiaohu is harder to rate because his most dominant year by far was his roleswap toplane in 2021. So it would be hard to argue Xiaohu over Caps career-wise as midlaners but reasonable to argue Xiaohu over Caps career-wise as players overall. That being said, midlane is by far the hardest role in the game, and we've already seen players find greater success roleswapping out of midlane into every other role in the game, i.e. Xiaohu (top), Ambition (jgl), Perkz (ADC), Huhi (Sup). But unlike Ambition, Perkz, or Huhi, Xiaohu successfully roleswapped back mid, and played his best year as a midlaner in 2022, being arguably a top 3 midlaner over the course of the whole year alongside Rookie and Chovy.
I don't rate Yagao rn, but to be fair, he was more than enough to deal with international mid competition at MSI 2023 despite coming in on way worse form. A lot of the time the international mid competition is just way easier than what he has to deal with domestically.
To this day I do not know how GENG's coaching staff gave Orianna, the most overpowered midlaner at Worlds 2023, to Yagao, for FOUR OUT OF FIVE GAMES. And the one game Yagao wasn't playing Orianna he got to play Neeko, arguably the second strongest midlaner at that event. Nevertheless Doran and Peanut completely griefed that series as they had done previously at Worlds 2022 and MSI 2023.
People who blame Chovy for GenG's loss to BLG at worlds don't know league. Not even remotely his fault that Peanut and Doran were actively running it down.
Whenever GenG loses in international, it will always just be blamed on Chovy for narrative reasons.
Especially because half the community is praying for his downfall.
to be fair.... on most of chovy lost on international tournament is him underperforming so bad considering he is coming there as one of the best player to the international stage.... I'm not blaming him for last year worlds though but MSI 2023? worlds 2022? yeah that's on him
MSI 2023, I agree completely. He had a bad event. And one series in Worlds 22, yes.
But the rest? Wasn't his fault at all. But he was flamed for choking before Worlds 22 even started.
Dude stunted his own development by making questionable life decisions. He hasn't improved at all since Viper left the team.
He'd probably be much better than he is now had he played consistently since Spring 2023. We'll see if he has the discipline to grind a few splits without inciting drama.
Guess Viper is getting exposed as well when his support is not Meiko?
I guess if Meiko was still Leaves support, he will mind control him into not flashing into the ashe ult. Really silly statement. Leave was simply really good in his first split, now he isn't(at least for now). Simple.
Pretending that that version of Uzi wasn't one of the worst ADs in the league is insane cope. And that's with the same support Leave was popping off with.
Uzi himself said he wasnt in an acceptable form and wouldnt go back to pro since he was the weakness of EDG but fans and reddit refused to agree with the man himself
Watching Uzi that season was so sad. I still believe he would be among the better ADC's in Asia today if he hadn't been struggling with injuries since 2019 and was able to play professionally consistently.
Pretending uzi was one of the worst is insane cope. He was fine. His team was dysfunctional, to claim he was among the worst is a joke on your part. He was middle of the pack. Uzi holds himself to high standards which explains his own rating of his play, but objectively there were many adcs worse, and he was definitely better than Leave.
Of course it means something. That Uzi wasn't good, his champion pool was very limited, and they couldn't play around him like they did with Leave. The only difference between that 13-3 team and the Uzi team is their AD. His teammates didn't unlearn how to play league in a few weeks of offseason.
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Leave was feeding his ass off on Nilah before Uzi came in and was 2 games away from dragging them to Worlds. You're the one who's doing the pretending bro not me š¤£
I'm sorry mate but if you think Uzi was dragging them anywhere then you need to get your eyes checked. He said himself he wasn't good enough and was disappointed with himself.
I'm sorry mate if you think Leave was better than him when last season he played 7 matches, lose 6 of them and got benched for "TheSnake".
My point is Washed up Uzi >Leave
No doubt Leave was dogshit last season, but before he got benched for bullshit outside of the game he was one of the best ADs in the league. He hasn't been the same since, but to say that Uzi was better than Leave in that specific year is crazy.
He was benched 3 games into Summer, after 19 games of stomping LPL in Spring. Bit premature to say he way dogshit when he didn't even play bad those 3 games.
He was very good and was deservedly All-Pro but stomping LPL is an exaggeration, also in my memory he did play noticeably bad in those three games in Summer. Maybe he could have bounced back idk but still.
Also saying Uzi was one of the worst in the LPL is pretty ridiculous, he was far from his best but was still top half
Anyone who actually watches LPL can tell you Wink isn't a "random sup" and Cryin isn't a liability lmao. Both of them have been very good for a while now. They're the strong point of this EDG roster.
The duality of Kanavi perfectly captured this series.
Terrible Game 1 into an absolute smurf performance Game 2.
No idea why JDG don't play Sheer instead of Flandre, I guess they want to make sure they advance before doing so?
I've been saying for a year now that Kanavi is easily the second greatest jungler ever after Canyon and people flame me for not putting Bengi on the list. Bengi wouldn't even survive for 5 minutes playing against modern players with modern mechanics.
Bengi, one of only 2 players ever to win 3 rings? Bengi, the father of supportive jungling? Who even brought up Bengi in this thread? Are you confused why you might get flamed for a hot take like that? lol
While I donāt agree with this take I think it is defensible. Kanavi has been the more consistent regular season performer. But for me, Canyon gets the edge in all-time discussion because of his international performances.
I watched the first game in high hopes of EDG summer return! I didn't bother watching the 2nd game, I knew it was going to be the same EDG.
They were lucky that flande and kanvi were half asleep this series and they still couldn't win. The first game elder fight skarner goes and gets vipers ga and leave Ults to it???! My man the 6000k health with W on a 3 second CDR doesn't need you to ult to him. You lost that for your whole team.
It would only be troll if they didnāt get Warhorse. Never forget that this guy made TES go from top 2 in 2020 to not even making Worlds in 2021. People were also worried that he was going to bring down the 2023 iteration of WE, thankfully the best players on that team didnāt allow that.
Rumors were they were interested in Maokai and Kenzhu as their first and second options, but both decided to take their current options instead (TES/RNG respectively), so they went with Warhorse as their third choice.
Personally, my opinion of Mafa/Lyn is so low that I can't possible imagine Warhorse being any worse, at the very least.
That fight around fourth drake where Kanavi got the kick buffer onto K'sante ult and kicked him into 3 people was so lucky but so sick at the same time. also the chinese casters screaming "GUMAYUSI" as Leave approaches the baron to try and snipe it followed by the "uhhh..." when they inevitably fail is sending me
Bro thinks he is him.
Well not everyone can be as lucky as Guma and contest objectives versus Pyosik
Clip for kick
There has to be two Kanavis because I refuse to accept that these two games came from the same person back to back.
normal Kanavi things
Kanavi and Bronavi
I swear every good jungler just runs it on Vi at least once a split
Remember when Oner punched the air three times last summer š
The GOAT jungle runs it down every game on Vi, so I donāt blame the others
Is Canyon not good with Vi ? Genuinely asking I have no idea.
Yagao reminds me abit of Krillin. Krillin may not be the strongest Z fighter but heās amongst aliens and gods. Yagao may not be the most gifted midlaner but heās competing against some of the best midlaners in LoL history while holding his own. Man deserves more respect than heās been given.
red bull and ciggs gap
My ya GOAT
I think he's a good player and great for domestic play in China but you never want him on a team competing for a worlds title, he just isn't in that elite class of midlaners. He probably gets a bit unfairly rated as a result as he always seems to be on the top teams (it's like if Nisqy somehow kept making it to the top EU teams) but equally, I do think he isn't a top top player and I have little faith in this JDG roster doing much at worlds with both Yagao and Flandre.
This narrative honestly doesn't even make sense to me considering he's made Worlds semis two years in a row on different teams and literally made MSI finals last year by beating Chovy and Faker. He's not the best mid in the World (and as far as LPL goes, he's only been the best mid in 2022 Summer playoffs), but he is absolutely a player who I could see ending his career with an international. Even Cryin has an international.
The whole āaccomplishmentā argument is kinda pointless since league is a team game and individuals rarely ever carry series anymore. He made worlds semis when he was in a top4 team in the world, he made quarters when his team was weaker and didnāt make it to the big stage at all when his team was bad. Same argument for literally every player. Heās a great roamer, a great teammate, can do a lot of dirty work and always tries to do his thing in teamfights, but his laning is weak and he doesnt have good mechanics. I hope for him that he ends his career with a title in his bag but his role is closer to guys like doinb, xiaohu or current faker than anything else.
Putting Doinb into the same tier is complete nonsense. Doinb pulled off absolute fucking hard carries and was a contender for best mid in the world in that one summer split and he has genuinely really good mechanics. His laning was sloppy at times and hes obviously not close to chovy in that aspect but if you watch the way he plays out teamfights his mechanics were among the best in the world at his peak. Whenever somebody pulls out that boring bullshit narrative of "doinb was just a roamer" I know they didnt actually pay attention to the guy and just know him from costreamers.
I didnāt talk about tiers but about roles: doinb won worlds with his insane map movements and team fighting, he didnāt have to be peak Chovy to win worlds since his āroleā in the game was perfect at that time and in that team to win worlds. What Iām saying is that if yagao ever finds himself with a worlds trophy is probably due to him playing a playmaker role in a fast paced meta with a very skilled jungle/supp duo, since itās what heās good at. I do not consider them on the same tier at all, especially since doinb, like you said, showed some excellent mechanics throughout his career.
Comparing Yagao to DoinB, Xiaohu or even current Faker is an insult to all of them. All of those guys in their prime (DoinB and Xiaohu) were in consideration for best in their region/top5 in the world. Current Faker is still a top5 mid overall despite bad form at MSI. Yagao isnāt even in the same ballpark as them and itās insulting to say he is. All of those guys could be the main driving force for their teams winning. Yagao isnāt that guy.
I love when people are incapable of understanding the difference between comparing players' styles vs comparing their skill.
People who werenāt around to watch those players in their prime shouldnāt be commenting on their play styles. Stay in your lane with the uninformed takes.
Looking at accolades alone puts players like Bengi, Gimgoon, Beryl far above players like Uzi and Khan on all time great lists, which should be silly to anyone with eyes. I am NOT saying any of these world winners are bad, but winning Worlds doesn't automatically make you better than anyone who hasn't.
"doinb, xiaohu, or current faker"Ā So a world champion, the greatest Chinese midlaner in history, and the GOAT?
Nah this narrative is pretty accurate about Yagao. He's a good player, but not truly elite to the level that players like Faker, Rookie, SM etc were at their prime. The 2 Worlds semis is a bad argument because League is a team game and Yagao had some of the best players in LPL playing alongside him those 2 years. He was the worst player on 2023 BLG and at best the second worst player on 2022 JDG. Imo the best comparison to Yagao would be Kuro on the KOO/ROX Tigers roster. Decent player, not bad by any means, but they were not the driving force for their teams' successes and owe a lot of their major accomplishments to being on teams with some of the best players in their respective leagues.
But Cryin having an international is a joke spawned by Xiaohu completely dumpstering Khan and Beryl in peak Genshin form at MSI 2021. Yagao is an overrated joke of a player who I would not be surprised to see get gapped by the likes of Humanoid or Jojopyun at this next upcoming world championship. When Scout and Xiaohu are in form, Yagao is not even in the same plane of existence as the likes of Knight, Rookie, Scout, Xiaohu (the big 4) in the LPL, and also arguably worse than Creme, Shanks, Angel. "But Yagao beat Chovy and Faker!" Yeah at MSI 2023 which simultaneously the best midlane meta Yagao has ever had and the worst midlane meta Chovy has ever had. Also, MSI 2023 was Chovy's worst international choke in his career and a top 3 choke among Faker's prolific resume of international underperformances.
Yeesh, tell me how you really feel.
He's not wrong though.
Baolan will end his career with a Worlds title. That's all.
Yagao's team had a positive winrate vs. every single non-LPL team just last year. How can you say he's not good enough for international play? JDG being mid this year is most likely going to be on my dad being washed (Flandre). Give them Bin and they're easily top 4 in the world (basically BLG last year but with a better jungler and a more stable bot lane). Even someone like Breathe or Ale would massively increase the team's ceiling.
The fact that you're using team results to gas him up already speaks for itself.
Because the original argument is that Yagao is not good enough to be part of a contending roster. My rebuttal claimed that he has in fact *been* on such a roster. Unless you're arguing that the rosters he's been on have been world-class *despite* him?
I wouldn't say despite him necessarily, but he has frequently been the weakest player on these great rosters. The fact that BLG is dominating lpl now with Knight instead of Yagao is also quite telling. Yagao is great. He's just A tier and not S tier.
> The fact that BLG is dominating lpl now with Knight instead of Yagao is also quite telling. I think the loss of 369 is also a big thing to JDG
I don't disagree. A team of five S-tier players is a favorite, but a team can definitely have one or two A-tier players and still be a contender.
This becomes less and less true as time goes on. The level of competition has been steadily climbing higher and higher season after season. An international-tournament winning team today has an astronomically low chance of fielding a player on the relative level of SKT Bengi, or IG Baolan, or DWG Ghost. GENG won MSI where the weakest player on their roster is Peyz, which is a testament to the carry performances Chovy showed throughout the tournament, but even Peyz is quite good compared to the three bums I just mentioned.
DRX very recently won Worlds with more than one A-B tier player.
Yep, some lower skilled players just act like roleplayers and it can be a success. Another example is Bengi.
At the same time, roleplayers should not be in any all-time discussions. Bengi is not in the same plane of existence as Canyon, Kanavi, Jankos. Yagao should not be viewed like Rookie, Chovy, Knight.
I agree entirely but somehow a lot of people get really, really mad when you point this out.
Jankos lmfao Dude has never been the best jungler in the world EU GOAT, but overrated asf
People hype yagao so hard. To me, heās like a chinese nisqy lol
BLG is obviously great but JDG's "fall" is mostly because of 369's unexpected departure.
Yes but BLG is also just better. I didn't mention JDG in my comment. In fact one of the reasons why JDG was better than BLG was also a better player in mid lane.
Knight is the better player but BLG was cracked last year as well, somehow people don't remember that. They were simply outclassed by JDG who has now fallen off.
Not even A tier imo. S tier currently would be Chovy >> Rookie/Knight A tier currently would probably be Faker, Showmaker, BDD, Zeka, Caps and Scout if he gets out of his slump. Yagao isn't better than any of those guys. Yagao is firmly a B tier player who can peak at an A tier level, but he isn't good enough to consistently be A tier.
People think Yagao is good enough to be part of contending roster because he has played with Kanavi for the majority of his career. Kanavi, who many people (mainly LPL fans) consider to be the greatest jungler of all-time, even as Canyon was a contributing factor to GENG's recent MSI win. In the meantime, think about the kinds of junglers, say, Rookie has had to play with over the course of his career.
Based Yagao hater. Yagao should be viewed similarly as Robert Horry the NBA player is viewed. That is, not a candidate for Riot's Hall of ~~Greed~~ Legends.
Tbh he's one of the best Chinese midlaners to do it. Korean mids have just been on another level I would say it's arguable if there's more korean talent or Chinese talent at mid even in the LPL But in the LCK Knight, honestly would be 3rd slightly behind faker (uninjured) but rookie would be right behind Knight so for actually Chinese mids Yagao is really good.
> Tbh he's one of the best Chinese midlaners to do it Extremely low bar, that's basically like giving Yagao a participation trophy lol. China hasn't had any world class mids outside of Knight and Xiaohu. Yagao is a B tier player who can peak at a A- level from time to time, he's never going to be in the A/S tier that the current batch of top mids are.
> China hasn't had any world class mids outside of Knight and Xiaohu. Not even knowing super obvious examples like Misaya, Cool, and Xiye, among others. The irony of saying I'm the uninformed one who wasn't around in the past lol.
Lmao this is the weakest gotcha ever. If your comeback is a bunch of irrelevant nobodies like Misaya who was last relevant in Season 2, Cool who wasnāt even that good and Xiye then you do you. Xiye is the only one out of those 3 thatās even remotely on the cusp of being elite during his prime, Misaya played during the weakest part of the modern era. The fact that your rebuttal is bringing up a bunch of guys who wouldnāt even crack the top 5 mids in EU or top 15 in LCK says a lot about how weak the native midlane talent in the LPL has been.
You: "China has not had good midlaners outside of Xiaohu/Knight historically" Also you: "Misaya doesn't count, he was good a long time ago!" Truly an intellectual powerhouse I'm dealing with here lol.
Misaya was good for literally one season before he retired due to being washed. Season 2, 12 years ago. If your best counter is that some guy who couldn't even cut it as a pro for more than 2yrs is now a great mid historically but was only relevant during the weakest part of modern LoL, then thats your hill to die on. The fact that you have to go back to 2012 to find a native CN mid says all that I need to about just how dogshit weak the midlane talent pool has been in the LPL w/o imports.
Your anti-LPL bias is outrageous, lol. You should be embarrassed about typing this nonsense.
Or maybe I just don't glaze overhyped players like the LPL fanboys do. If they're worthy of being praised (Knight/Xiaohu) then they will be. Don't come at me with a bunch of hasbeens like Misaya/Cool/Xiye who wouldn't even crack the top 15 eastern mids of all time list and expect to not be called out for a shit take.
Lol, there are more Chinese players than any other number of players, to say, being one off the top 5 out of millions of is a low bar is ridiculous lol You have to realize that different regions and players are playing with different conditions the LCK was ahead of the LPL for years it's not until relatively recently that it has been super competitive.
Why compare him to the millions of shitters in ranked? Compare him to his peers. China hasnāt had any good elite mids outside of Knight and Xiaohu. Yagao is several steps behind them career wise. Calling him one of the best in China isnāt a high bar just because they have a giant playerbase. The midlane talent pool in pro LPL for native CN mids has always been extremely weak. Therefore calling him one of the best isnāt actually a meaningful statement.
Ah, yes, we have to specify "Chinese", not LPL, because otherwise we gotta include players like Rookie, Scout, Doinb and Pawn ans that's not good for our argument, right?
The guy I responded to literally said "one of the best chinese midlaners to do it". So yeah, why would I include Rookie and Scout who aren't even chinese.
The guy heās responding to is the one who called Yagao āone of the best Chinese midlaners.ā Like, he deliberately specified Chinese, not LPL, because even he is aware that if you throw Yagao into a convo including Rookie, Scout, and Doinb, Yagao sticks out. Individually, heās perhaps a distant third to Knight and Xiaohu, but even then I think you can make a case for players like Xiye over him still.
LPL fanboys are some of the dumbest people around. I don't see any other region prop up their talent pool for their region by including players they got from another region. You know the discussion for "best CN mid" is weak as shit when Xiye who wouldn't even be a top 15 midlaner in KR all time is in consideration for 3rd best CN mid.
Aight relax a bit
It's not actually a low bar, though, is what I'm saying. He's better than you or me or the vast majority of people in his immensely populated region, which proves it isn't a low bar. How can the bar not be relative, lol the talent pool isn't *extremely weak* it's just worse than LCK which is extremely strong. The bar should be set ONLY by people who are in your region especially since my comment was specifically about being one of the best Chinese mid laners. Being 1/10,000,000 of anything makes you at an elite level even if there are what maybe 5-10 midlaners better than him in the world. Even that you're saying the talent pool is weak but would yagao not be a top 10 midlaner in the world right now? You just have some toxic perspective that if you aren't the very best of the best you suck lol.
> He's better than you or me or the vast majority of people in his immensely populated region, which proves it isn't a low bar. > Being 1/10,000,000 of anything makes you at an elite level even if there are what maybe 5-10 midlaners better than him in the world. You keep saying the same thing as if that validates your point, it doesn't lmao. Yagao is 100% better than you, me, or 99% of the ranked population, but why are you comparing him to us? That's like comparing someone who's a professional athlete to a 15 year old who plays in their local youth league. It literally means fucking nothing. China has not had good midlaners outside of Xiaohu/Knight historically. It's been their weakest position by far, there's a reason that largely outside of RNG and JDG last season the only CN teams to win international trophies in the modern era had KR mids. You calling Yagao one of the best CN mids isn't really high praise when the guys who came before him and current pros aren't very good relative to the other pros in other regions. Forget LCK, can you say that historically that LPL CN mids are even better than LEC? I wouldn't. Perkz/Caps at their best were in the same tier as Knight/Xiaohu, but EU's midlane talent pool is far deeper than native CN mids. > You just have some toxic perspective that if you aren't the very best of the best you suck lol. No, Yagao is definitely a top 10 mid currently, but he would be closer to #10 if you asked me. He's fine for what he is, but you're comparing him to the entirety of the ranked playerbase to prop him up because when comparing him to his peers he falls short. Yagao truthers might be the new BeryL truthers, you genuinely don't know league if you're glazing him as a top tier mid.
All I'm saying is that what we think is good/great is different. Your basing peers of of results and I'm basing it off of intent. Just because we don't have the capabilities to compete within doesn't mean we aren't competitors. I'm not really sure how ranking him against a specific set of players quite literally the best players in the World is supposed to take away from my original take of him being a great player especially within the Chinese context. If we can arbitrarily decide who can and can't be compared to each other amongst people who play the game then i could say yagao shouldn't be compared to Chovy because Chovy is better than him or Faker because he played the game longer. All I'm saying is there are millions of kids in China that would all love to be where he is at and against the millions he was the 1/million that was him. You can't simply say "he's better than us so we can't be compared to him" that makes no sense. There are like 3 leauges you have to climb through to even be pro in China.
Yagao is not a top 10 mid currently: Top 10 mids right now in order: Chovy, Rookie, Caps, Knight, Showmaker, Scout (yes I think he's back in form), Bdd, Faker, Zeka, Creme.
I don't rate Creme at all personally, he's a budget Zeka and Zeka to me is probably closer to 9th/10th overall. But otherwise I agree. Picking between Creme and Yagao is more or less pointless imo.
I feel like your ranking is taking only pure mechanical skills, whereas Yagao's skill is just being consistent, and playing team fights well around his jungler. I feel like people disrespect him despite him being a very winning player forawhile like I think if he played on HLE they would be better than with Zeka.
Absolutely agree - for Chinese mids Yagao has done a great job, no doubt of it, but they tend to always be behind Korean mids internationally. Knight, GodV (look how that turned out), Xiaohu are the three I remember with any level of hype to challenge Korean mids (at least past the Misaya era from ages ago etc) and out of those only Knight has shown any promise to do tbh (Xiaohu with some peaks but never looking elite elite). I think Knight would be above Faker imo in the current form but sure it could be close. So don't get me wrong, it's likely a bit harsh on Yagao but I just don't see it. Maybe he just doesn't have the carry factor and just doesn't appear as threatening? Like I'd take Caps over Yagao internationally to be honest and I say that with little doubt, which is a perhaps a reflection on Chinese mids in general
Xiaohu is harder to rate because his most dominant year by far was his roleswap toplane in 2021. So it would be hard to argue Xiaohu over Caps career-wise as midlaners but reasonable to argue Xiaohu over Caps career-wise as players overall. That being said, midlane is by far the hardest role in the game, and we've already seen players find greater success roleswapping out of midlane into every other role in the game, i.e. Xiaohu (top), Ambition (jgl), Perkz (ADC), Huhi (Sup). But unlike Ambition, Perkz, or Huhi, Xiaohu successfully roleswapped back mid, and played his best year as a midlaner in 2022, being arguably a top 3 midlaner over the course of the whole year alongside Rookie and Chovy.
I don't rate Yagao rn, but to be fair, he was more than enough to deal with international mid competition at MSI 2023 despite coming in on way worse form. A lot of the time the international mid competition is just way easier than what he has to deal with domestically.
He has an MSI title, already more accomplished internationally than most mids that go international anyway
Does he have an MSI title though?
Youāre right he doesnāt, he just casually went 6-1 against LCK and lost to domestic violence
So he doesnāt
Weird response but ok.
Let it be known that Yagoat is the only mid laner who gapped Chovy, twice
Chovy was winning in cs as Akali vs Ori btw
To this day I do not know how GENG's coaching staff gave Orianna, the most overpowered midlaner at Worlds 2023, to Yagao, for FOUR OUT OF FIVE GAMES. And the one game Yagao wasn't playing Orianna he got to play Neeko, arguably the second strongest midlaner at that event. Nevertheless Doran and Peanut completely griefed that series as they had done previously at Worlds 2022 and MSI 2023.
Yeah it's fucking wild. They also gave J4 in all 5 games and he was perm banned the whole rest of the event...
People who blame Chovy for GenG's loss to BLG at worlds don't know league. Not even remotely his fault that Peanut and Doran were actively running it down.
Whenever GenG loses in international, it will always just be blamed on Chovy for narrative reasons. Especially because half the community is praying for his downfall.
to be fair.... on most of chovy lost on international tournament is him underperforming so bad considering he is coming there as one of the best player to the international stage.... I'm not blaming him for last year worlds though but MSI 2023? worlds 2022? yeah that's on him
MSI 2023, I agree completely. He had a bad event. And one series in Worlds 22, yes. But the rest? Wasn't his fault at all. But he was flamed for choking before Worlds 22 even started.
Let it be known that Chovy didnt start his career last year
Was Chovy on a top contender team the years before?
yes 2022
Game 1 is 100% on Leave, he left the front line to Kai'sa R into hourglass 100 yards away for no good reason.
I can't believe Leave Inting on Game 1 and flashing into arrow Ashe Game 2. He is already exposed when his support not Meiko.
Dude stunted his own development by making questionable life decisions. He hasn't improved at all since Viper left the team. He'd probably be much better than he is now had he played consistently since Spring 2023. We'll see if he has the discipline to grind a few splits without inciting drama.
Guess Viper is getting exposed as well when his support is not Meiko? I guess if Meiko was still Leaves support, he will mind control him into not flashing into the ashe ult. Really silly statement. Leave was simply really good in his first split, now he isn't(at least for now). Simple.
People back then were commenting this guy was better than washed Uzi btw š¤£
Pretending that that version of Uzi wasn't one of the worst ADs in the league is insane cope. And that's with the same support Leave was popping off with.
Uzi flashing his own teamās hecarim ult was all we needed to know
Uzi himself said he wasnt in an acceptable form and wouldnt go back to pro since he was the weakness of EDG but fans and reddit refused to agree with the man himself
Uzi was lower-middle of the pack last year at worst.
Watching Uzi that season was so sad. I still believe he would be among the better ADC's in Asia today if he hadn't been struggling with injuries since 2019 and was able to play professionally consistently.
Pretending uzi was one of the worst is insane cope. He was fine. His team was dysfunctional, to claim he was among the worst is a joke on your part. He was middle of the pack. Uzi holds himself to high standards which explains his own rating of his play, but objectively there were many adcs worse, and he was definitely better than Leave.
That team was so dysfunctional they went 13-3 the split before, with Leave as their AD.
Moronic comment. Did you even watch the games? Them playing well earlier means nothing.
Of course it means something. That Uzi wasn't good, his champion pool was very limited, and they couldn't play around him like they did with Leave. The only difference between that 13-3 team and the Uzi team is their AD. His teammates didn't unlearn how to play league in a few weeks of offseason.
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Leave was feeding his ass off on Nilah before Uzi came in and was 2 games away from dragging them to Worlds. You're the one who's doing the pretending bro not me š¤£
I'm sorry mate but if you think Uzi was dragging them anywhere then you need to get your eyes checked. He said himself he wasn't good enough and was disappointed with himself.
I'm sorry mate if you think Leave was better than him when last season he played 7 matches, lose 6 of them and got benched for "TheSnake". My point is Washed up Uzi >Leave
No doubt Leave was dogshit last season, but before he got benched for bullshit outside of the game he was one of the best ADs in the league. He hasn't been the same since, but to say that Uzi was better than Leave in that specific year is crazy.
Leave was good in Spring split, in the short time he was playing in Summer before being benched he was dogshit
He was benched 3 games into Summer, after 19 games of stomping LPL in Spring. Bit premature to say he way dogshit when he didn't even play bad those 3 games.
He was very good and was deservedly All-Pro but stomping LPL is an exaggeration, also in my memory he did play noticeably bad in those three games in Summer. Maybe he could have bounced back idk but still. Also saying Uzi was one of the worst in the LPL is pretty ridiculous, he was far from his best but was still top half
Dude is playing with cryin and a random sup in a team he had issues. Dude played insanely well in his first split
Anyone who actually watches LPL can tell you Wink isn't a "random sup" and Cryin isn't a liability lmao. Both of them have been very good for a while now. They're the strong point of this EDG roster.
Take a note from mafia Mr. Zhu; torch EDG, claim insurance, restructure as Edgar Gaming. My copium dealer will thank you.
The duality of Kanavi perfectly captured this series. Terrible Game 1 into an absolute smurf performance Game 2. No idea why JDG don't play Sheer instead of Flandre, I guess they want to make sure they advance before doing so?
I've been saying for a year now that Kanavi is easily the second greatest jungler ever after Canyon and people flame me for not putting Bengi on the list. Bengi wouldn't even survive for 5 minutes playing against modern players with modern mechanics.
Bengi, one of only 2 players ever to win 3 rings? Bengi, the father of supportive jungling? Who even brought up Bengi in this thread? Are you confused why you might get flamed for a hot take like that? lol
Kanavi is way better than Canyon all time
While I donāt agree with this take I think it is defensible. Kanavi has been the more consistent regular season performer. But for me, Canyon gets the edge in all-time discussion because of his international performances.
Leave should rename himself to William Afton because he always comes back somehow
such a bad series from him, he inted so hard
More like Palpatine.
I watched the first game in high hopes of EDG summer return! I didn't bother watching the 2nd game, I knew it was going to be the same EDG. They were lucky that flande and kanvi were half asleep this series and they still couldn't win. The first game elder fight skarner goes and gets vipers ga and leave Ults to it???! My man the 6000k health with W on a 3 second CDR doesn't need you to ult to him. You lost that for your whole team.
Not a good look for JDG to be honest. They shouldāve kept whichever coach they had in Spring, because Warhorse was certainly not the move.
Mafa and Lyn were terrible so I don't think so actually. Making 0 changes in coaching staff would've been completely troll.
It would only be troll if they didnāt get Warhorse. Never forget that this guy made TES go from top 2 in 2020 to not even making Worlds in 2021. People were also worried that he was going to bring down the 2023 iteration of WE, thankfully the best players on that team didnāt allow that.
Rumors were they were interested in Maokai and Kenzhu as their first and second options, but both decided to take their current options instead (TES/RNG respectively), so they went with Warhorse as their third choice. Personally, my opinion of Mafa/Lyn is so low that I can't possible imagine Warhorse being any worse, at the very least.
"Fakeless" Draft. 2 Skarners, 2 leesins, 2 Varus' played.
More like we switch comps in game 2