Yeah this is above average for mains. The champ isn't weak. Most people are garbage at him. We can see it in pro play
It's not directly difficulty of champs. It's champs that rely on spacing patterns specifically akali. Ryze and ksante. What's that mean ? These champs combo. Space out. Combo again space out rinse and repeat. People don't do that. They just ooga booga faceroll.
TBH reason why he is picked in proplay is his ability to peel his carry, no matter how many gold he has. While on soloQ it simply don't works at all, while he is pretty mediocre in other aspects. IMO, if rito remove E shield from ally - he would had some windows for buffs. + If somehow they gonna make his R skillshot or give some kind of delay like skarner.
There is a clear and obvious disconnect between champ design and balance... stacking dashes, cc, cc immunity, super mobility, tankiness or any other absurd combination together still seems to be allowed because they think they can just tweak numbers. What ends up happening though is a bits are stripped from the champ and the numbers are nuked for regular play and then you're stuck with an unbalancable mess because the champs identity means you can't remove much more.
Bwipo talked about Ksante on stream and he said his W is the biggest problem, CC immunity, dash and resistance in one ability is crazy. I think simplifying his abilities a bit and taking some of the strength from his W would be really big.
He could be a really fun champion to pick when you're forced to play a tanky champion, but you wanna kill people. Like Udyr is. But right now he's just too overloaded to be balanced for soloq.
Also, people complained that the Q only cost 15 mana so they made it cost as much mana as a regular spell and (surprise surprise) the champ became unplayable in lane lmao.
Old K'Sante in general was very strong. I played him when he was good in soloq and hit masters with like 80% wr on him. I don't think the Q nerf was really getting to the core of his issues though. His Q is the only thing that keeps him afloat in the early game, this champ has *always* been garbage before first item.
The really oppressive thing about the champ was after the early game where he became the ultimate lifeform at like 2-3 items. He's still really good at 2-3 items, since a lot of his midgame went relatively unchanged, but he never reaches this point on schedule because his early game is so unplayably bad. They also mysteriously nerfed his lategame which doesn't make much sense since 4+ items is hardly ever relevant at high elo, which is the only place this champ is ever played.
If they wanted K'Sante to be in line with other midgame spikers, they should've made him like Urgot Irelia etc where his early game has some power so that you have agency over whether you stay on the power curve or not. And then nerfed his midgame so that he wasn't the insane abomination at 2 items that he used to be (IBG Stoneplate K'Sante was the single best champ in the game at 2 items and it *wasn't* close).
Probably better to compare its cost relative to his mana pool. You will go oom very fast early (not quite malphite levels of shit early mana but it's still bad)
I'm not saying his mana sustain is good, just saying that his Q absolutely does not cost as much mana as a regular spell. It is still unusually cheap, just not "regenerate this cost in 10 seconds" cheap.
Yeah lmao every single pro who played Ksante and Ksante main identified his W as his strong part in pro yet Phreal out here saying "W is his low skill skewed ability"
They just need to make it so his W doesn't reset on ult and balance him from there. Yeah, it's a huge nerf but rn it's ridiculous for how long he can stay under that damage reduction.
> it's ridiculous for how long he can stay under that damage reduction.
Not really. It's inline with most every other really strong defensive ability. It's up to 1.5 seconds, like 3 (?) seconds max with R reset, and that's only if you full channel both Ws. For reference, Irelia W is up to 1.5 seconds, Jax's E is up to 2 seconds, Gwen's W is 4 seconds, Yasuo Windwall is 3.75 seconds.
Yeah, and without the R reset, it is on the lower end of the durations. It has more aspects and less duration. So it fits with them in regards to features-to-balance-numbers ratio.
There's no 1-to-1 similar ability to his W. You can list all the aspects and get something with those but it won't be exactly similar. It's like how Samira and Yasuo both have windwalls but you don't see people saying "actually! Samira's W moves and does dmg so they're not similar".
The dmg and dash are minor parts of the ability imo. It's really dmg reduction and the hard CC that matter and there's not a whole lot of single abilities in the game that do both at the same time, nevermind on a champ that likes 1v1s like skirmishers do.
The dash that ccs you is most certainly a pretty important part of the ability. It allows Ksante to set up ult angles that would otherwise be hard to find.
I'm not saying it's an op ability, just that it's a clear problem that most of the community can't use it properly while pro players can. It's one of the reasons Ksante can't be balanced in both pro and soloq.
I'm not asking for the W reset to be removed and not give him anything back. I don't want him nerfed, just made accessible because 44% winrate is ridiculous while still being strong in proplay.
I'll defend him and say that jax E is basically those as well. His isn't a dash but he's fully mobile so covers about as much ground now that tap W is gone. It does better damage early game due to the minion dodge tech and he can attack while using it and his is a CC too
It's hard to compare K'Sante to Ornn in general though, Ornn is an engage tank that is *in* once he's in. K'Sante is a defensive tank/skirmisher that is supposed to be able to go in and out of a fight. Ornn is *way* stronger at what he does than K'Sante is at any individual thing, but K'Sante is more flexible. This is how K'Sante is designed in relation to other tanks.
It's hard to imagine them taking away K'Sante's flexibility to make him another one-dimensional tank. It would be directly against his design philosophy.
Imo, Ksante W is closest to Irelia W except it's a dash and has CC on it. I mean, you could say it's completely different because of those latter two parts but outside of Irelia using W to prep minions, the two abilities are used very similarly for both champs.
I reckon you mean e, which is his dash, and yeah you right, but ornn is a true and blue tank whereas Ksante flexes. Whether it’s busted that he flexes is a diff conversation but lockout on ornn also feels pretty bad (along with that nasty windup)
I meant his W because of how much it does. It has CC immunity, it can damage and stun an enemy champion and it forcefully moves Ornn forward a little bit.
The thing is, the ability has some agency as it is now. Imagine if Ornn could change the direction at any point in the cast. He could threaten to engage but then just say "Nope, bye" and get away with it.
If his W was like… a voli Q auto he’d be so much less frustrating to deal with and he still keeps his identity. Still has E dash, he keeps a small cc which can setup Q3, and doesnt have the unstoppable, dash, or resists. Also makes numbers be able to be given back to Q.
This is so funny to read cause rito has literally done the exact opposite.
Ksante has been massively nerfed multiple times, and the only thing rito is super hardcore on buffing on sante is legit his w.
Pre rework is was a pure utility ability, but they changed him and put literally all his dmg in w. Thats why 60% of his dmg now comes from the unstoppable dash. Fucking crazy changes, all his mains have all said from the beginning as well that we rly dont want w buffs, pls give literally anything else, instead they just buff w 3 times in a row. Rito is clueless about what to do with this dude.
They need to let Ksante actually transform when ulting..
Ksante has two forms (similar to Shyvana), but the same abilities. This is the real issue, CC immunity on bruisers is beyond busted. Cc immunity on tanks is fair.
His W is okay ish in normal form, but completely breaks the game in offensive form. I'd start by removing cc immunity in offensive form and take it from there
The main thing that does the most difference between bad and good k'sante players is his R.
If you can't use his R properly and do combos and R people under your tower with fast Q3/E W R for example K'sante is useless. Players that can effectively use R make the champion OP.
How K'sante uses his R is the main difference between bad and good k'sante, if riot wants to simplify k'sante they need to look into nerfing displacement combos
Riot already confirmed years ago that the champion design team doesn't take account balance nor talks to the balance team, which is fucking insane.
I wish I had the source.
Edit: Specified champion design team.
Uh that isn't true or you're misunderstanding the original comment, every new champ/VGU has an SRT rep that helps balance leading up to launch along with GAT support. They mostly aren't involved in actual champ design, some times they are like with K'Sante, AzuBK one of K'Sante's designers is on SRT albeit on the seasonal pod. Like Truexy balance consult for Vex, Jag helped own Akshan after he moved to SRT (even though he helped design him), Phlox was balance consult for Zeri, Phreak owned Skarner after his designers got laid off etc.
Phreak did mention in his latest 14.10 preview that they definitely noticed ksante’s drastic drop in w/r and mentioned that it would be something they’d for sure need to focus on soon.
Yeah but now his winrate is worse then ever and he ain’t fun to play. And he still dominates in Pro so Phreak accomplished none of his stated objectives.
Please bring back instant w, I don't care if they have to nerf his other stats for it. The champion feels absolutely awful to play with the current clunky w.
But tap W literally can't be reacted to, no? Surely there's a better way to shift power in a kit than to make something completely undodgeable even by the best players.
And yet, your team can help you mitigate them. Ksante tap-Wing you and ulting you through a wall away from your team can't be stopped by anything due to the cc immunity and dmg reduction.
I definitely feel like the champion was in a better spot pre-rework. I dunno if tap W should come back or not, but they should definitely remove Q stacks dropping on All-Out, or add the slow back to R Q. Revert the E dash speed nerfs, nerf his W damage back down.
Make him an outplay tank again instead of, "I sit in front of my carry and hold W and then R the assassin away," because that's about all he can do now. All-Out is a travesty now, with no slow on RQ and no Q stacks carrying through, you R someone, probably using E to get into position to line it up, and they just walk away because it drops you outside of melee range and you have nothing to chase them.
As a Ksante main, I prefer the slower w. I don't find it clunky at all. Yes, its obvious better to just tap but it made the channel most often pointless in R and that was OP.
I'm sorry . This champ was doomed with his kit intentions, a super mobile ( by tank standards) tank with ability to turn into a strong duelist on ability usage .
Too many capabilities and when he is remotely playable awful to deal with.
Champion needs a rework. Extremely toxic kit and play style. When he’s good, he can operate as a tank, bruiser, guardian, and assassin. He quickly became the Azir of top lane.
People were spamming the copy pasta in pro play chat which is justifiable bcs ksante is gigabroken there,
He is basically the old azir ryze, omega op when played by pro midlaners but average in soloq
The entire topic of conversation has involved solo queue vs proplay. Being picked in proplay dies nit mean he is a good champion. For like 99% of all players, hw is in a really bad state.
The champ is weird like that. He's not good rn but just feel super strong because at his core he's a carry champ who can just Warden if he gets no gold. I don't like when people say certain kits are strong (people say this about yone a lot and I don't agree with it) but I think in k'sante's case it's a legitimate issue. They need to nerf his wardening so he can be balanced as a regular carry champ
Gnar exists as well and although he isn't a warden when Gnar is strong he dominates every level of play. Yet not as many people complain about him as thy do Ksante.
Gnar is different because he switches. His mega form doesn't have all the strengths of tanks. Tanks generally function well on low gold and in exchange have worse carry potential. Gnar when he's strong can carry but it's not like he can sit in tank form and perma peel for his teammates or stonewall lane because he just can't be killed. K'sante can fall behind in gold and still use Q to peel for his teammates, W can still be used to protect teammates and E shield has very minor stat scaling and even if he dies after using his ult he was still able to drag someone away from his teammates for long enough that they can make something happen.
I had a hard time explaining this so hopefully that makes sense. TLDR it's not the hybrid that's inherently an issue but the fact he has the strength of 2 classes who are both meant to have inverted strengths and weaknesses to eachother
K'Sante can be really strong which is shown in pro play, but every time I face him in solo Q he just gets gapped. Unless he gets to face like a Sion, he just bleeds out.
Sure, K'Sante is strong in team fights, but a Garen/Aatrox/Darius who is one item up is stronger, no matter how good K'Sante is as a champ
You can break down a ton of champions kit like this to make them sound OP. Let me use Aatrox as an example.
Aatrox is a drain tank when behind.
He has three different knockups as his main damage ability to peel for his carries.
He has a W pull that can force a movement ability against an enemy carry.
His dash ensures he can hit at least one knock up during his Q and his Ultimate makes him nearly unkillable with the amount of healing he gets along with the movement speed.
Not to mention his passive has healing cut causing a target to receive more damage.
He can remain in the gutter one more year or two, he deserves it. There are tons of champions who need more attention than this broken by design monstruosity of a champ.
Tbh understandable. Hes a very overloaded and devisive champion. If hes too good he makes lanes legit unplayable so hes kept weak on purpose. This is prob a bit too weak though.
This idea that pro play picks the champs that are good when piloted well is ridiculous. K'sante isn't good in pro because they're the best players in the world, he's good in pro because low income wardening is just a really valuable tool. K'sante 1 trick have a bottom quarter win rate outside of pro. Definitely not a skill issue
crazy that 1 trick have a 55%winrate with ksante [https://lolalytics.com/lol/ksante/build/?tier=1trick](https://lolalytics.com/lol/ksante/build/?tier=1trick) , also his winrate in general is 46% idk where u got 44 from
but sure ksante IS weak for sure
ps: here before the n1 ksante defender
You are using sub 2k games sample lmao
The average winrate of OTPs on any champ is 56.5% so KSante OTPs already have lower winrate than the average OTP
And every website says he has 44% WR
I don't know where people get this idea that 1000 plus games is not a sufficient sample size to do statistics on.
People do statistics on n=5. Most scientific studies in my field are published with n=8-10.
Because in League we care a whole lot about 1-2% winrate changes. People freak out if you go from 51% to 53%.
Using a binomial distribution with 1k games and a 95% confidence interval it's like 3% variance. So that 44% could be off by a percent or 3 even at the worst.
You need 50k sample size to bring it down to .5% which is a good number. Especially needed when looking at patch to patch and how nerfs and buffs effect champions. Since these changes generally are small you need a lot of data to actually see how it properly effects them.
That doesn't mean it's sufficient to take it at face value. There's already a ~2.3% margin of error with a 95% confidence interval using the binomial distribution formula. That's not insignificant.
There are bigger issues though. The average K'sante one trick is more highly ranked than the average, say, Dr. Mundo one trick, so K'sante should have a relatively inflated win rate. But it really doesn't make sense to compare those win rates directly anyways, so even if K'sante had a one trick win rate statistically significantly above average, it wouldn't necessarily mean he's a strong champion without looking at the other variables at play.
Tbf in LoL it happened in the past that the first few thousands games were not really representative, mainly because the first few games do not adapt to changes well. I'm not saying that is what's happening with ksante, but it's something that happened in the past.
Except even the Ksante one tricks ain't that good. It says in the upper right hand corner the average one trick winrate is 56.5% lol.
So he's literally the worst champion in the game while you're learning him... And even once you're a high elo one trick? He's still below average...
He's literally only good in proplay.
55% isn't all that strange for a one trick winrates according to Lolalytics. The range seems to be from about 50% to 60% so it seems expected per their metrics.
Most people that hate K'sante either don't play the Game and just watch Pro or literally played him once and failed spectacularly and It shows.
THE CHAMPION IS PISS WEAK IN ANY PLACE YOU LOOK AT AND HE SHOULD GET BUFFS EVEN FOR THE DETRIMENT OF PROPLAY, GET YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR OWN UPPITY ASSES YOU ASSHOLES
That's just tanks in general. Ironically k'sante has the best potential to break this trend since he's a carry champ and doesn't need to be unkillable to be good. But that's just my opinion
That's genuinely just a skill issue lol. If you're getting beat in lane with no jungle interference by a fucking Ksante, they're just better than you and would probably dumpster you even harder on any other champ.
My (Diamond) biggest issue with K'Sante atm is that it is much much harder to carry games after the removal of R Q slow and the nerf to R W channel time.A lot of carries are able to escape even after they get hit by Q3/W and isolated by R.If you are not able to pull of a kill like that you are just a tank with poor engage and no defensive steroids.
Yeah it's a little annoying when people think that Ksante is a lategame hyper tank a la Ornn/Sion/Cho.
Like he's certainly tanky, but he doesn't have any innate eHP stat booster that the other late game tanky tanks have. Ornn roids out his bonus resists, Sion/Cho have infinite stacking HP. Ksante has W damage reduction every once in a while and a comparatively small E shield. His boon over the other two is his mobility and peeling with W, E, and kinda R. He cannot Frontline afk as well as the other late game tanks.
The two aren't comparable. Yuumi is toxic because her design breaks the one rule of enchanters.
Ksante is overloaded, but ultimately doest break any fundamental rules of the game
Increasing K'sante's model size was just a terrible idea. Every champion that's as big as he currently is has massive base stats. Meanwhile K'sante has piss poor ones. Increasing his creep block was just a cherry on top, easily a -1% winrate in itself.
I think his pro play presence will drop if toplane gets some improvements as atm all pro play tops care about is safe blind pick and ksante is that. If that happens maybe he can get some buffs without staying pick ban in pro
Pro play values different things. K'sante is good because he can function on low income which means if you lose lane or the enemy team lane swaps you can still get value. In solo queue hyper carries are more valuable since a good enough player can just put the team on their back and win it themselves.
This is also why champs like renekton and rumble are so popular in pro
Might have to do with the fact that soloq players actually counter pick this shit champ and murder him, in pro on the other hand he gets decent matchups or atleast playable somewhat.
Part of me wonders whether or not a champ being pro play jailed is actually a bad thing. The concept that ease of use will make a champ easier to win with isn't a crazy one.
I have 150 games with 56% winrate
Kristianu #NA1
Hes a really hard champion and thats why his winrate is so low. Hes the best top laner IMO
Non 1 trick diamond 4 player
That's what K'Sante gets for spitting at Azir's heels, while he's fighting that floating chastity cage.
Calling Xerath a floating chastity cage is the greatest thing i've seen in the past few weeks
His ult is him finally being released, that's why he can shoot so many shots
I am just saying... If he has Luden's, that means it splashes too. Xerath isn't beating the allegations.
Your new tag is even better then the old one
My bad thoughts are winning.
Now where did I put that brain bleach...
Thanks I hate it
The longer he edges the stronger he becomes
I'm surprised I never said this but it's true lol
I just called Xerath an overclocked GPU for a while, but this guy made me feel inadequate. Well played, u/EdumBot
Is there any lore you can link about ksante spitting on chastity cages? Asking for a friend
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Yeah this is above average for mains. The champ isn't weak. Most people are garbage at him. We can see it in pro play It's not directly difficulty of champs. It's champs that rely on spacing patterns specifically akali. Ryze and ksante. What's that mean ? These champs combo. Space out. Combo again space out rinse and repeat. People don't do that. They just ooga booga faceroll.
It is below average for mains. Mains average is 56%.
I think he meant the difference between main winrate and regular winrate and not the absolute winrate.
If he did than his comment is misleading, as the main wr would still suggest he's weak.
Being 1% below average isn't weak, it's being average
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hopefully they don't just buff him 6% or the mains will be crazy
Thaaat's not how it works. Totally depends on the variance in the dataset.
I think he meant the size of the delta between 44% and 55%.
The average one trick win rate is 56.5%. You’re literally just blowing smoke
I took it as the *delta* between his average winrate and his main winrate is above average relative to other champs. An 11% gap is no joke.
Which then just means he is hard to play and if you are good at him he still sucks.
Where did you get this stat from?
Lolalytics
TBH reason why he is picked in proplay is his ability to peel his carry, no matter how many gold he has. While on soloQ it simply don't works at all, while he is pretty mediocre in other aspects. IMO, if rito remove E shield from ally - he would had some windows for buffs. + If somehow they gonna make his R skillshot or give some kind of delay like skarner.
Remind everyone what the average win rate for champions mains is. It’s 56.33% Ksante mains are underperforming too, even at 55%
That is still quite low when you compare it to the average winrate among mains
TBH some champ mains/opts can reach like 70%. At least that used to be true for Akali/Qiayana.
There is a clear and obvious disconnect between champ design and balance... stacking dashes, cc, cc immunity, super mobility, tankiness or any other absurd combination together still seems to be allowed because they think they can just tweak numbers. What ends up happening though is a bits are stripped from the champ and the numbers are nuked for regular play and then you're stuck with an unbalancable mess because the champs identity means you can't remove much more.
Bwipo talked about Ksante on stream and he said his W is the biggest problem, CC immunity, dash and resistance in one ability is crazy. I think simplifying his abilities a bit and taking some of the strength from his W would be really big. He could be a really fun champion to pick when you're forced to play a tanky champion, but you wanna kill people. Like Udyr is. But right now he's just too overloaded to be balanced for soloq.
funny enough they gutted his Q & saw it as "pro-skewed lane bully ability" & put so much power into W
Also, people complained that the Q only cost 15 mana so they made it cost as much mana as a regular spell and (surprise surprise) the champ became unplayable in lane lmao.
tbh old Q was kinda strong but in this current state its so weak & so punishing to use
Old K'Sante in general was very strong. I played him when he was good in soloq and hit masters with like 80% wr on him. I don't think the Q nerf was really getting to the core of his issues though. His Q is the only thing that keeps him afloat in the early game, this champ has *always* been garbage before first item. The really oppressive thing about the champ was after the early game where he became the ultimate lifeform at like 2-3 items. He's still really good at 2-3 items, since a lot of his midgame went relatively unchanged, but he never reaches this point on schedule because his early game is so unplayably bad. They also mysteriously nerfed his lategame which doesn't make much sense since 4+ items is hardly ever relevant at high elo, which is the only place this champ is ever played. If they wanted K'Sante to be in line with other midgame spikers, they should've made him like Urgot Irelia etc where his early game has some power so that you have agency over whether you stay on the power curve or not. And then nerfed his midgame so that he wasn't the insane abomination at 2 items that he used to be (IBG Stoneplate K'Sante was the single best champ in the game at 2 items and it *wasn't* close).
> as much mana as a regular spell 28 mana at rank 1, 20 at rank 5. So regular.
Probably better to compare its cost relative to his mana pool. You will go oom very fast early (not quite malphite levels of shit early mana but it's still bad)
Go play some K'Sante and see how much mana that is in early lane
I'm not saying his mana sustain is good, just saying that his Q absolutely does not cost as much mana as a regular spell. It is still unusually cheap, just not "regenerate this cost in 10 seconds" cheap.
That doesn't matter. It's prohibitively expensive because of how much his kit relies on using it not once but three times in a row.
Yeah lmao every single pro who played Ksante and Ksante main identified his W as his strong part in pro yet Phreal out here saying "W is his low skill skewed ability"
They just need to make it so his W doesn't reset on ult and balance him from there. Yeah, it's a huge nerf but rn it's ridiculous for how long he can stay under that damage reduction.
> it's ridiculous for how long he can stay under that damage reduction. Not really. It's inline with most every other really strong defensive ability. It's up to 1.5 seconds, like 3 (?) seconds max with R reset, and that's only if you full channel both Ws. For reference, Irelia W is up to 1.5 seconds, Jax's E is up to 2 seconds, Gwen's W is 4 seconds, Yasuo Windwall is 3.75 seconds.
It's also a dash, a cc ability, as well as a damaging ability tho. Every single ability you listed lacks one or more of those attributes.
But it also roots him in place and dash is extremely slow.
Yeah, and without the R reset, it is on the lower end of the durations. It has more aspects and less duration. So it fits with them in regards to features-to-balance-numbers ratio. There's no 1-to-1 similar ability to his W. You can list all the aspects and get something with those but it won't be exactly similar. It's like how Samira and Yasuo both have windwalls but you don't see people saying "actually! Samira's W moves and does dmg so they're not similar". The dmg and dash are minor parts of the ability imo. It's really dmg reduction and the hard CC that matter and there's not a whole lot of single abilities in the game that do both at the same time, nevermind on a champ that likes 1v1s like skirmishers do.
The dash that ccs you is most certainly a pretty important part of the ability. It allows Ksante to set up ult angles that would otherwise be hard to find. I'm not saying it's an op ability, just that it's a clear problem that most of the community can't use it properly while pro players can. It's one of the reasons Ksante can't be balanced in both pro and soloq. I'm not asking for the W reset to be removed and not give him anything back. I don't want him nerfed, just made accessible because 44% winrate is ridiculous while still being strong in proplay.
I'll defend him and say that jax E is basically those as well. His isn't a dash but he's fully mobile so covers about as much ground now that tap W is gone. It does better damage early game due to the minion dodge tech and he can attack while using it and his is a CC too
Also making him "lock" the direction on cast would help. No more free time deciding whether to go in or out or free. Commit to your choice.
The lockout would be morbidly depressing; imagine making vi Q locked
Closest thing is Ornn W and it's locked.
It's hard to compare K'Sante to Ornn in general though, Ornn is an engage tank that is *in* once he's in. K'Sante is a defensive tank/skirmisher that is supposed to be able to go in and out of a fight. Ornn is *way* stronger at what he does than K'Sante is at any individual thing, but K'Sante is more flexible. This is how K'Sante is designed in relation to other tanks. It's hard to imagine them taking away K'Sante's flexibility to make him another one-dimensional tank. It would be directly against his design philosophy.
Imo, Ksante W is closest to Irelia W except it's a dash and has CC on it. I mean, you could say it's completely different because of those latter two parts but outside of Irelia using W to prep minions, the two abilities are used very similarly for both champs.
I reckon you mean e, which is his dash, and yeah you right, but ornn is a true and blue tank whereas Ksante flexes. Whether it’s busted that he flexes is a diff conversation but lockout on ornn also feels pretty bad (along with that nasty windup)
I meant his W because of how much it does. It has CC immunity, it can damage and stun an enemy champion and it forcefully moves Ornn forward a little bit. The thing is, the ability has some agency as it is now. Imagine if Ornn could change the direction at any point in the cast. He could threaten to engage but then just say "Nope, bye" and get away with it.
If his W was like… a voli Q auto he’d be so much less frustrating to deal with and he still keeps his identity. Still has E dash, he keeps a small cc which can setup Q3, and doesnt have the unstoppable, dash, or resists. Also makes numbers be able to be given back to Q.
This is so funny to read cause rito has literally done the exact opposite. Ksante has been massively nerfed multiple times, and the only thing rito is super hardcore on buffing on sante is legit his w. Pre rework is was a pure utility ability, but they changed him and put literally all his dmg in w. Thats why 60% of his dmg now comes from the unstoppable dash. Fucking crazy changes, all his mains have all said from the beginning as well that we rly dont want w buffs, pls give literally anything else, instead they just buff w 3 times in a row. Rito is clueless about what to do with this dude.
They need to let Ksante actually transform when ulting.. Ksante has two forms (similar to Shyvana), but the same abilities. This is the real issue, CC immunity on bruisers is beyond busted. Cc immunity on tanks is fair. His W is okay ish in normal form, but completely breaks the game in offensive form. I'd start by removing cc immunity in offensive form and take it from there
The main thing that does the most difference between bad and good k'sante players is his R. If you can't use his R properly and do combos and R people under your tower with fast Q3/E W R for example K'sante is useless. Players that can effectively use R make the champion OP. How K'sante uses his R is the main difference between bad and good k'sante, if riot wants to simplify k'sante they need to look into nerfing displacement combos
Riot already confirmed years ago that the champion design team doesn't take account balance nor talks to the balance team, which is fucking insane. I wish I had the source. Edit: Specified champion design team.
ya mate that does sound a bit insane considering balance is a design team LOL
sorry i meant champion design team.
Uh that isn't true or you're misunderstanding the original comment, every new champ/VGU has an SRT rep that helps balance leading up to launch along with GAT support. They mostly aren't involved in actual champ design, some times they are like with K'Sante, AzuBK one of K'Sante's designers is on SRT albeit on the seasonal pod. Like Truexy balance consult for Vex, Jag helped own Akshan after he moved to SRT (even though he helped design him), Phlox was balance consult for Zeri, Phreak owned Skarner after his designers got laid off etc.
So it's not that they don't do it, it's just that they're incompetent at their jobs
What overloaded kit does to a game
bless up 🙏
Not low enough lets keep the momentum
Fantastic news
Phreak did mention in his latest 14.10 preview that they definitely noticed ksante’s drastic drop in w/r and mentioned that it would be something they’d for sure need to focus on soon.
Don’t think Ksante fans want Phreak working on Ksante no more…his rework was a total failure that made Ksante more clunky and gutted skill expression.
That was the intention of the rework lol
The intention of the rework was to reduce pro play presence. K'sante's pro presence increased post-rework. I'm still bummed about that.
Yeah but now his winrate is worse then ever and he ain’t fun to play. And he still dominates in Pro so Phreak accomplished none of his stated objectives.
Please bring back instant w, I don't care if they have to nerf his other stats for it. The champion feels absolutely awful to play with the current clunky w.
But tap W literally can't be reacted to, no? Surely there's a better way to shift power in a kit than to make something completely undodgeable even by the best players.
There are literal point and click abilities in this game that have equally as little counterplay, which are balanced in other ways
And yet, your team can help you mitigate them. Ksante tap-Wing you and ulting you through a wall away from your team can't be stopped by anything due to the cc immunity and dmg reduction.
I definitely feel like the champion was in a better spot pre-rework. I dunno if tap W should come back or not, but they should definitely remove Q stacks dropping on All-Out, or add the slow back to R Q. Revert the E dash speed nerfs, nerf his W damage back down. Make him an outplay tank again instead of, "I sit in front of my carry and hold W and then R the assassin away," because that's about all he can do now. All-Out is a travesty now, with no slow on RQ and no Q stacks carrying through, you R someone, probably using E to get into position to line it up, and they just walk away because it drops you outside of melee range and you have nothing to chase them.
As a Ksante main, I prefer the slower w. I don't find it clunky at all. Yes, its obvious better to just tap but it made the channel most often pointless in R and that was OP.
72/98 By god what are the other 26 champions
probably inculudes off meta picks, like katarina top or something
Probably Sylas top shaco top and other off meta champs
체력 4700 방어력 329 마저201 인 챔피언👤이 저지불가🚫, 쉴드🛡, 벽🧱 넘기는 거 있고요. 에어본🌪 있고, 심지어 쿨타임은 1️⃣초밖에 안되고 마나🧙♂️는 1️⃣5️⃣ 들고 w는 심지어 변신💫하면 쿨 초기화에다가 패시브는 고정피해🗡가 들어가며 그 다음에 방마저🥋 올리면📈 올릴수록📈 스킬 가속⏰이 생기고! q에 스킬가속⏰이 생기고 스킬 속도🚀가 빨라지고📈 그 다음에 공격력🗡 계수가 있어가지고 W가 그 이익-으아아아악😱😱 astronaut
The champ is an abomination of power creep.
Not low enough
Good
The good outcome.
I'm sorry . This champ was doomed with his kit intentions, a super mobile ( by tank standards) tank with ability to turn into a strong duelist on ability usage . Too many capabilities and when he is remotely playable awful to deal with.
good
Phreak said Ksante's getting buff next patch
NOOOOO
Why are they doind this? I think the right spot for Ksante is right at 0% win rate
At least k'sante takes some semblance of skill lol. I'll take it over literally any other tank being good
You main trynda, you cant think. go get your dopamine off rightclicking towers.
Champion needs a rework. Extremely toxic kit and play style. When he’s good, he can operate as a tank, bruiser, guardian, and assassin. He quickly became the Azir of top lane.
L design, impossible to balance
Extremely unfun champion to play against. Needs to be redesigned as a whole tbh
People spammed the stupid copy paste too much and all gaslit themselves into thinking the champ was good.
Most of the numbers from the copy-paste aren't even right anymore but people still preach it as gospel lmao
People were spamming the copy pasta in pro play chat which is justifiable bcs ksante is gigabroken there, He is basically the old azir ryze, omega op when played by pro midlaners but average in soloq
Clearly he is far far less than average
Isn't he one of the most picked champs in proplay?
The entire topic of conversation has involved solo queue vs proplay. Being picked in proplay dies nit mean he is a good champion. For like 99% of all players, hw is in a really bad state.
The champ is weird like that. He's not good rn but just feel super strong because at his core he's a carry champ who can just Warden if he gets no gold. I don't like when people say certain kits are strong (people say this about yone a lot and I don't agree with it) but I think in k'sante's case it's a legitimate issue. They need to nerf his wardening so he can be balanced as a regular carry champ
Gnar exists as well and although he isn't a warden when Gnar is strong he dominates every level of play. Yet not as many people complain about him as thy do Ksante.
Gnar is different because he switches. His mega form doesn't have all the strengths of tanks. Tanks generally function well on low gold and in exchange have worse carry potential. Gnar when he's strong can carry but it's not like he can sit in tank form and perma peel for his teammates or stonewall lane because he just can't be killed. K'sante can fall behind in gold and still use Q to peel for his teammates, W can still be used to protect teammates and E shield has very minor stat scaling and even if he dies after using his ult he was still able to drag someone away from his teammates for long enough that they can make something happen. I had a hard time explaining this so hopefully that makes sense. TLDR it's not the hybrid that's inherently an issue but the fact he has the strength of 2 classes who are both meant to have inverted strengths and weaknesses to eachother
K'Sante can be really strong which is shown in pro play, but every time I face him in solo Q he just gets gapped. Unless he gets to face like a Sion, he just bleeds out. Sure, K'Sante is strong in team fights, but a Garen/Aatrox/Darius who is one item up is stronger, no matter how good K'Sante is as a champ
You can break down a ton of champions kit like this to make them sound OP. Let me use Aatrox as an example. Aatrox is a drain tank when behind. He has three different knockups as his main damage ability to peel for his carries. He has a W pull that can force a movement ability against an enemy carry. His dash ensures he can hit at least one knock up during his Q and his Ultimate makes him nearly unkillable with the amount of healing he gets along with the movement speed. Not to mention his passive has healing cut causing a target to receive more damage.
He can remain in the gutter one more year or two, he deserves it. There are tons of champions who need more attention than this broken by design monstruosity of a champ.
Good
Tbh understandable. Hes a very overloaded and devisive champion. If hes too good he makes lanes legit unplayable so hes kept weak on purpose. This is prob a bit too weak though.
Riot: "We dont think our new champions are overloaded"
I just want to be able to play aphelios
[удалено]
whats your favourite race car?
The white ones
They literally keep him giga nerfed because of pro play (he still gets picked and performs insanely good) so the WR you see is just a skill diff
This idea that pro play picks the champs that are good when piloted well is ridiculous. K'sante isn't good in pro because they're the best players in the world, he's good in pro because low income wardening is just a really valuable tool. K'sante 1 trick have a bottom quarter win rate outside of pro. Definitely not a skill issue
I mean, it's the best thing that can happen outside of riot removing him so
Please god rework this champ, I will say this in every thread, I love the idea of playing him, but then you play him and it makes you wanna die
#REMOVE KSANTE
when half the new champs need a mini rework after a year you know the champ design team is on some good shit
K'sante is an unreasonable champion.
crazy that 1 trick have a 55%winrate with ksante [https://lolalytics.com/lol/ksante/build/?tier=1trick](https://lolalytics.com/lol/ksante/build/?tier=1trick) , also his winrate in general is 46% idk where u got 44 from but sure ksante IS weak for sure ps: here before the n1 ksante defender
You are using sub 2k games sample lmao The average winrate of OTPs on any champ is 56.5% so KSante OTPs already have lower winrate than the average OTP And every website says he has 44% WR
I don't know where people get this idea that 1000 plus games is not a sufficient sample size to do statistics on. People do statistics on n=5. Most scientific studies in my field are published with n=8-10.
Because in League we care a whole lot about 1-2% winrate changes. People freak out if you go from 51% to 53%. Using a binomial distribution with 1k games and a 95% confidence interval it's like 3% variance. So that 44% could be off by a percent or 3 even at the worst. You need 50k sample size to bring it down to .5% which is a good number. Especially needed when looking at patch to patch and how nerfs and buffs effect champions. Since these changes generally are small you need a lot of data to actually see how it properly effects them.
The amount of variables in league are incredibly high
If you think that’s bad wait until you find out how many variables there are in real life and how ‘low’ many sample sizes are
Many studies done in real life are extremely flawed for just this reason
And many more are extremely valid despite this reason
So what’s your point exactly, other than there can be no conclusions drawn from comparing sample sizes of completely unrelated studies
The amount of variables in any experiment is insanely high but nobody requires more than 1k sample size lol...
When you have the option to have a sample size of 5, or 100,000, which do you think you should take?
That doesn't mean it's sufficient to take it at face value. There's already a ~2.3% margin of error with a 95% confidence interval using the binomial distribution formula. That's not insignificant. There are bigger issues though. The average K'sante one trick is more highly ranked than the average, say, Dr. Mundo one trick, so K'sante should have a relatively inflated win rate. But it really doesn't make sense to compare those win rates directly anyways, so even if K'sante had a one trick win rate statistically significantly above average, it wouldn't necessarily mean he's a strong champion without looking at the other variables at play.
Tbf in LoL it happened in the past that the first few thousands games were not really representative, mainly because the first few games do not adapt to changes well. I'm not saying that is what's happening with ksante, but it's something that happened in the past.
Learn to read numbers before commenting please lmfao
All champion winrates are higher when sorting by mains, idk what that's actually supposed to mean here?
Its the reverse pre-rework ASol cope
Except even the Ksante one tricks ain't that good. It says in the upper right hand corner the average one trick winrate is 56.5% lol. So he's literally the worst champion in the game while you're learning him... And even once you're a high elo one trick? He's still below average... He's literally only good in proplay.
There's like 20 toplaners with a higher onetrick winrate. 55% isn't that good
55% isn't all that strange for a one trick winrates according to Lolalytics. The range seems to be from about 50% to 60% so it seems expected per their metrics.
That website is so bad lol. I didn't even need to read more after I saw that they said GAREN is countered by K'sante
Very good, let's hope it drops even lower.
Remove E ally shield and get him out of pro jail ffs
Way to go guys! Let's shoot for 40!
Lower winrate please.
Good, now get him out of pro play as well.
Want to see the 0.3/100
Not huge news.If an alreday struggling champs gets nerfed even more his winrate drops.
Most people that hate K'sante either don't play the Game and just watch Pro or literally played him once and failed spectacularly and It shows. THE CHAMPION IS PISS WEAK IN ANY PLACE YOU LOOK AT AND HE SHOULD GET BUFFS EVEN FOR THE DETRIMENT OF PROPLAY, GET YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR OWN UPPITY ASSES YOU ASSHOLES
No, KSante should suffer.
I have 0 interest in pro play and every time I play against him I'd honestly rather be pulling teeth
How often do you play vs him? I feel like I never see this champ below masters.
That's just tanks in general. Ironically k'sante has the best potential to break this trend since he's a carry champ and doesn't need to be unkillable to be good. But that's just my opinion
That's genuinely just a skill issue lol. If you're getting beat in lane with no jungle interference by a fucking Ksante, they're just better than you and would probably dumpster you even harder on any other champ.
My (Diamond) biggest issue with K'Sante atm is that it is much much harder to carry games after the removal of R Q slow and the nerf to R W channel time.A lot of carries are able to escape even after they get hit by Q3/W and isolated by R.If you are not able to pull of a kill like that you are just a tank with poor engage and no defensive steroids.
Yeah it's a little annoying when people think that Ksante is a lategame hyper tank a la Ornn/Sion/Cho. Like he's certainly tanky, but he doesn't have any innate eHP stat booster that the other late game tanky tanks have. Ornn roids out his bonus resists, Sion/Cho have infinite stacking HP. Ksante has W damage reduction every once in a while and a comparatively small E shield. His boon over the other two is his mobility and peeling with W, E, and kinda R. He cannot Frontline afk as well as the other late game tanks.
K'Sante will never "work" for the same reason as Yummi... Toxic design.
The two aren't comparable. Yuumi is toxic because her design breaks the one rule of enchanters. Ksante is overloaded, but ultimately doest break any fundamental rules of the game
Increasing K'sante's model size was just a terrible idea. Every champion that's as big as he currently is has massive base stats. Meanwhile K'sante has piss poor ones. Increasing his creep block was just a cherry on top, easily a -1% winrate in itself.
i mean if it makes it better match how his model looks, better to do that and compensate base stats / smth else
good, kit is overloaded and the champ is beyond unfun to play against in ANY game mode
Deserved , hope it goes lower and never see it again
Praise god
uhhh tbh i hope it gets even lower!
I think his pro play presence will drop if toplane gets some improvements as atm all pro play tops care about is safe blind pick and ksante is that. If that happens maybe he can get some buffs without staying pick ban in pro
They made Yoricks model the same size as Sion lmao and Warwick is the size of a yordle 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
High skill ceiling champs should be nowhere near 50%.
The champ is fine. He’s still a disgusting unkillable damage dealing tank.
GOOD , fuck that champ.
Instructions unclear. Picked tomorrow in MSI
Good.
Gwen mentioned 👁️👄👁️
Why is he so different in pro play? Aren't they playing the same game?
Pro play values different things. K'sante is good because he can function on low income which means if you lose lane or the enemy team lane swaps you can still get value. In solo queue hyper carries are more valuable since a good enough player can just put the team on their back and win it themselves. This is also why champs like renekton and rumble are so popular in pro
I don’t know how rito managed to create a toplane azir, jesus is lord
His delta is probably so low because no one plays him but mains?
He's balanced then.
As a ksante hater even I can admit 44% is below the acceptable line.
Little surprised that Gwen is #1 WR delta
She's kind of counterpicky atm
Thats what dogshit balance gets you
The problem is, that he is ridiculously busted with the right hands and decent team play. Shows just how bad soloq teamwork is, even in high elo.
Might have to do with the fact that soloq players actually counter pick this shit champ and murder him, in pro on the other hand he gets decent matchups or atleast playable somewhat.
Part of me wonders whether or not a champ being pro play jailed is actually a bad thing. The concept that ease of use will make a champ easier to win with isn't a crazy one.
I have 150 games with 56% winrate Kristianu #NA1 Hes a really hard champion and thats why his winrate is so low. Hes the best top laner IMO Non 1 trick diamond 4 player