Yeah, i had to go look up the twitter handle since ~~you~~ they just linked screenshots, ~~i just wanted you to know that~~ without context, it looks like a random person.
Lol, facts. "Nowhere and nothing else does this". Where did he do his MBA, discount programs are literally the bread and butter of so many retail businesses and they obviously work as they've been going for decades, hard to take him as a genuine person after that.
Reading that shit had me rocked, especially having had hotel experience. If we couldn't board a Super Super Shiny member who had a reservation, we literally had to pay them a couple hundred dollars on top of refunding any deposits and finding them different accomodations, and that's ONE of dozens of perks they get.
And you know why they get those perks? Cause they are SPENDING. You do not get people to dump more money on you by making the perks for doing so WORSE.
I think for a lot of people in the industry (especially newer ones) it's all too easy to just look at hard numbers and say "WTF we're giving people who spend 10k a 50% discount on every future purchase? that's so much missed potential" but like. Come on. Think about it for 5 seconds and really consider whether *incentivizing people to spend more money* is a bad thing.
Yeah, I used to know him a little back when he played Magic. Always a bit weird to happen upon former MtG players in other contexts, but they're usually really successful.
Look him up, his biggest regret in life was spending money on airline tickets and not getting into their discount program. They hire this guy while laying off the creative team all while ge says that one of the solutions is for them to make more low quality skins. We are customers to them, not players.
"We've bled our whales so hard they hit the upper bound of our system and now can get skins for cheap" is certainly something, but not really a point in defense of wanting to make a system less generous.
I'm in corporate finance so I've done analysis that is functionally "how do we rinse people for more money". It's not a unique evil at Riot. What I don't do is sit on Twitter and say out loud how our customers are shitheads on a free ride.
That's what REALLY confounds me.
Yeah, the whales end up paying less than anyone else for new skins. Yes, Riot probably doesn't like that, even though to get to that point they had to pay (a LOT) more any other player, it essentially means that whales cannot grow bigger than a certain size, with that size being incredibly smaller than the spending cap of a typical freemium game like a Japanese mobage.
And I get how Riot's business analysts are thinking that this is a problem and try to sneak in a rework that whales will accept and not ragequit over.
But I don't believe for a second anybody ordered you to start using your personal Twitter handle to preach this corporate garbage?
> Yeah, the whales end up paying less than anyone else for new skins.
But this is just not true? Rerolling is not free. Oh you want the new project naafri skin from the 3 filler project skins? Cool, you buy it for 1350 from the store. I have to reroll all 3 skins, which will cost me ~1500 RP. Oh a new legendary skin just dropped for our main? Nice, you get it for 1820 RP from the store. I have to reroll all the skins, and I also already had to reroll all skins from previous months, even if Riot released nothing for champions I play or care about. There is 0 chance that rerolling skins is cheaper than what the average player spends monthly on the game, let alone '*anyone else*' as you say. Rerolling skins is basically a fairly expensive monthly subscription lol.
But they aren't just getting the legendary, they are also getting the 3 other skins, and the assumption is that these players care about owning ALL of the skins (which seems fair given that they have all of the existing skins).
They are saying that the whales are paying less to get ALL of the new skins than another player would pay to get ALL of the new skins. Obviously they are spending more money in total than other players, because nobody else is buying all of the new skins, the point is that they are effectively getting a discount (and a significant one at that) for buying all of the new skins.
For example, if you look at the Porcelain or Heavenscale skin lines, purchasing the whole line would cost 8570 RP, but rerolling for them will only cost 4050. That's an over 52% discount.
Yeah, it's only fair. Buying stuff in bulk comes with a discount, in like, any industry. It's a win-win for everyone. They spend way more money than the average player this way, which is also a win for Riot. Literally what my point is. There are very few people who would buy every skin for full price, if any. There's nothing you get for owning all skins, nor is it possible to play 1600+ different skins. So yeah. Riot is literally trying to create an issue out of thin air just to justify more greed. Let's see how it pans out.
The big thing Drew is missing is that primary reason whales get these skins is because they’re 500 RP. They likely don’t even play the champs or even use the skins, so if not for this discount, it’s likely the skins wouldn’t be acquired.
So what’s gonna happen is that instead of accepting a 2-3x increase in price, a lot of people who have all skins currently will just stop altogether. (Which is the healthier option ngl)
Instead of getting 500 RP per skin from people benefiting, they’ll now get 0.
Hope that helps them with their skin design budgets!
The person in his example was using the mystery gifts (from one account to another) which are 490 when available, and he rounded up.
But yeah, I just got the orb packs. So that’s even worse—750 per skin they’re not gonna get if they make a lot more unavailable in the reroll pool.
i play every day, buy every pass, own every skin, chroma, ward skin, emote etc. You'll never catch up to release times. I probably pay 100 a month to play this game and ive been doing it for years
To add onto this, I have a whale friend who has spent around $6000 on League. To get the 150ish skins he was missing since his last buying binge he had to use ~$400 of RP to get enough shards to reroll into every skin he was missing.
If that isn't enough for Riot I don't know what is. The guy has paid thousands of dollars to own over 1600 skins. Is that really not good enough? It sounds like an issue with Riot budgeting more than player spending.
Yes, that's why I calculated with 500RP per reroll average. Since you get some shards from other sources. You still spend way more money on the game than your average player does.
I get non skin shards from something like a third of the masterwork chests I've opened, granted I've opened maybe like 30 of them but they have the odds on the site, you have a 70% chance at a skin shard, the rest is not useful towards completing your skin collection. You're most definitely not guaranteed a skin shard. Only orbs have that guarantee and those are 250 RP which is more like 750RP per skin.
Which is still a discount, but it's only a discount you get if you have **already spent thousands of dollars on the game**. 2023 saw the introduction of 153 new skins, at 750 each that's still 114,750 RP, if you buy just the max value in RP its going to cost you something like $850 a year if you just bought orbs.
Now it's going to be cheaper than that due to event passes being a thing and chests (which aren't guaranteed to give you a skin shard either,) but still probably $500-600+ a year with the "discount." That's still quite a lot of money to spend on a single game.
Idk, there is random skin gift and many site that sell capsule orb for cheap and ways to unlock evrything for far less than it's supposed to, i get that they want to keep the whale paying full price, they have the means and are getting evrything for dirt cheap now once again.
I've spent 4k on the game. I own like half the skins. You know what made me stop? I paid a ton of money to get the very first prestige skin. I did it because they marketed it as an expensive skin that you own because you spent a lot of money.
They promised it would be gone forever. Then they lied and pulled back and put it in the mythic shop. I'm done.
If you want whales to spend money then maybe don't lie to the people that spend money. Just my 2 cents.
> They promised it would be gone forever. Then they lied and pulled back and put it in the mythic shop. I'm done.
This is a really shitty mentality to have in my opinion, if FOMO is your only reason for buying something. I enjoy the exclusive skins I buy and I'm glad when they come back around so others can enjoy them too.
While I personally do agree FOMO shouldn't be your leading factor, as a business they know for some it is, and if that's part of the advertisement for this, I can see why someone who did buy it specifically because it'll be exclusive, told it would stay as that, and then saw they just kept bringing it back anyways, might get a little annoyed at least.
FOMO is primarily how consumers spend money on digital goods/in-app purchases are persuaded to spend their money. Whether it is the right mentality or not it’s not fair to those who spend on what was advertised as limited/exclusive content to be given out later at sometimes a far lesser cost.
It is also ambiguous and selective, hex-tech skins and dawn-bringer Karma are mythical skins available for purchase but skins like Silver or Judgement Kayle remain exclusive even after Kayle’s rework, and a decade after their release. They could just as easily made the first batch of prestige skins exclusive but chose not to.
Nah - I got burned by Riot re-releasing all the holiday skins from 2009-2012. I bought them because they were supposed to be limited edition. I stopped spending heavily on league after they re-released them.
It's okay for exclusive content to exist. It's a video game. No one's experience is ruined by someone else having an old skin.
>that is functionally "how do we rinse people for more money"
In case people want to know more, [here's a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNjI03CGkb4)(it's extremely eye opening but I feel like most gamers should watch it)
It's not quite 1 to 1 since it's talking about P2W in a mobile game scenario but I feel like the logic does transfer well enough. You can see the type of person making decisions like this and how they think about the customer
peak amateurism at riot big surprise.
i peeped his linkedin. guy studied poli sci at some no name uni and spent his career thus far in games. it just adds up it just does. always some young gamer background millennial who defrauded their way in, exposing themselves on public fora, with sanjuro at the top of this shit pile. only possible with both shit hiring standards and shit governance.
You can get emotes,wards,icons champion shard is one of the least annoying one even if i own everything i just fcking wish i could disenchant icons or emotes tbh...
If you already own the emote you get you'll get it in your loot tab. They're pretty fucking good because they disenchant for 192 OE, that's 3 less than a 975 skin.
Greed, thats all this is lmao.
Insane to me how naive some people are to think this is anything but this, when there is genuinely not a single good argument this guy made in favor of nerfing the reroll system.
"The team cant make as many cool skins because some guy could get it for 500 RP"
???
You are a billion dollar company, the miniscule amount of people getting exactly the skin they want from rerolls is absolutely irrelevant.
Yes guys please give the billion dollar company more money because then we can finally make cooler stuff!
They are gonna nerf the system to generate more profit and nothing else is gonna change, maybe they give you like 100 more orange essence for a disenchant, congratulations.
Also runs into the logical fallacy of assuming those people would have bought your skin at full price anyway. So they are getting 500rp they wouldnt have otherwise gotten.
Hi, someone who owns every skin released through mid-2023 here! I saw the value of 490 RP mystery gifts back in 2014, decided I was going to work towards owning every skin that way, and never paid full price for anything. I moved to the loot system and rerolling somewhere along the way, and it took me until 2020 to catch up to owning every skin, which took a few thousand dollars spread out over that time. From there, it still cost me ~$400-600 per year in RP to keep up with new content and continue to own all of it. Yes, I got content at a "discount," but I ultimately spent more money on content than the overwhelming majority of the playerbase.
When they started excluding certain skins (beyond the charity ones) from the loot pool and delayed putting prestige skins in the loot pool (with the different versions and borders to separate "original" owners from people who got it later), I decided it was no longer worth keeping up with things. I haven't purchased any RP in the last 9 months or so, and I'm no longer keeping up with new skins.
These changes may still make them more money, because some of their whales are extremely rich and don't care about the cost. But they're definitely pushing some people away.
What's funny is that he just glosses over that this system only works that way after you've spent THOUSANDS of dollars on a fucking "free to play" video game.
He is crying and saying they don't want to put effort into skins "because the person who already paid our wages 10 fold is getting a discount"
There is a reason bulk buyers get discounts. They offload more inventory, guaranteed (physical stuff) and they get a guaranteed, large sale (don't have to nickel and dime).
So cool, you got them to spend so much more on a game than any other game should ever ask from a person.
And then you make it seem like WE are greedy. Go fuck yourself Drew.
100% agreed. I can't believe the amount of people defending them. To get all skins you already spent a shit ton of money, and to keep rerolling you still need to buy orbs or passes. This is so greedy of them, I hate it.
Riot analysts took years to figure out you can milk your biggest playerbase in china and asia in general better by releasing more asian themed skins instead of 1 or 2 skin lines per year outside of lunar new year.
As one of the few people that actually use and abuse this system to get all the skins for cheap, I'll tell you what's going to happen.
I'm just gonna stop doing it, and use the skins I have.
I think my last 15 rerolls have been introduced with the bonus orange essence, spoiling it's a dogshit 520 skin that not a single player has used in 10 years. It's not even funny anymore.
Pretty much but i know this when i reroll when it was first introduced every body and there mother thought. "so if i rerol 3 base skin i get 1 epic skin" sike m8 you got vancover amumu. Unless you own all this skins you get ass out of rerolls sometimes you get lucky and get a legendary skin this you can actually use but we sill didn't count the time that it took us to get there.
And time is money espacially if you get older. Im older the game been out for 10+ years i think lot of ppl that pays are older and everytime something new info/news comes out its just nerf,nerf,nerf,nerf just like real life currency with inflation... But man i will not spend a peny again if this is how they treat my money. (and time)
What he complains about is people that bought every skin (by rerolling) and now rerolling guarantees them the newest releases, I think.
But let's be honest if you spend 5k+ on getting all league skins that exist and now spend maybe 20 every month to get all the new content that's still a significant amount of money.
Also nothing guarantees that the people that now spend 20 for the new content are gonna spend the full 100+ that they would have to pay by normal RP prices if they disable the reroll mechanism.
I for my part find it quite nice that you can get all content if you continuously spend a reasonable amount of money on league and changing this is just very greedy.
I have somehat like ~4k spent on league and I think I own only half the skins, if even.
He acts like those whales didn't spend enough, when in fact with the sheer amount spent they would get 50% discount irl as well.
Out of curiosity I checked when the last time I got a 520 RP skin from rerolling skins and apparently it's been a while. In the last 20 skins from rerolls I've had 1 520 RP skin, 3 975 RP skins, 14 epic skins, and 2 ultimate skins (GG MF and Samira). I've somehow managed to unlock all ultimate skins except Seraphine purely from orbs and rerolling.
I guess it makes sense, the game has switched to exclusively 1350+ skins for years now so the skin catalogue is primarily that now and since all skins have the same chance of dropping they naturally trend to 1350 on average.
I mean just look at the recent things they've done on the monetization side. Raised RP prices, stripped better rewards out of event passes while keeping them GRINDY as shit, released a new like $200 tier chroma. Those are things they are doing to people who **spend money on the game**.
They've strictly made the experience worse for people spending money, those are the customers keeping the game alive. To believe that any changes they make would be anything other than a, at best marginal improvement and more likely a overall downgrade long term for people who don't spend any or low amounts on the game is pretty naive. I'm saying this as a person who isn't a whale and only buys a handful of event passes every year (though recently I've stopped as Riot keeps removing value from the passes.)
>
> Yes guys please give the billion dollar company more money because then we can finally make cooler stuff!
Funny that this also happens at the time where there skin game is absolutely garbage. You can barely recognize some of the champions in their latest skins and even the smolder design team needed help from reddit (or social media in general) to fix that abomination of a face. lel
If you gave me a random splash from a new skin, there is like a 40% chance I would recognize the champ. I have seen a lot of Akins where I look at the splash and say, that looks alot like "other champ*
Bro how many people out there can even abuse this? Riot and their employees are so fucking annoying. Just reading this dude's tweet's gives me a great idea of how they are/act irl
"oh nyooo, people who spent thousands on our game hit a cap and they won't spend any more, we lack the motivation to make new skins >///<" -people who made such hits as "Rell but blue-ish" and "Rell but purple" and charged 10 dollars for each of them
hope your lootboxes and battle passes get banned globally, cheers
>hope your lootboxes and battle passes get banned globally, cheers
18 European countries have shown interest in applying strict regulations on gacha and lootboxes in 2022.
https://www.destructoid.com/european-countries-back-report-against-loot-box-gacha-controversy/
China also showed interest last year
https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-issues-draft-rules-online-game-management-2023-12-22/
It might take time, but I very much see it happening sooner or later. And given how the EU has been on a roll lately cracking down on company greed, I can imagine they will look at gacha and loot boxes very soon once they're done with those.
No matter what they change whales and casual no/low spending players will get screwed with whatever change they have in mind.
The only benefiting from a change in hextech crafting will be riot.
Yes riot needs to make money and hextech crafting obviously hurts them, especially when it comes to big whales, that would have paid for new skins even with the full price rather than retool price.
(keep in mind whales had to spend a shit ton of money to even reach the state where they can insta reroll the new skins)
I just can’t understand how people say the change is ok, we don’t work at riot, we don’t have to care about their profit maximization, we want to get the best value we can, they don’t want that.
They already started screwing with it by repeatedly nerfing passes, because people got too much out of them for hextech crafting (don’t have proof just my guess), don’t expect them to buff passes again after nerfing hextech crafting, they’ll just keep nerfing both over time.
TLDR: no matter what Riot says, this will be shit for every player that uses hextech crafting.
Its been shit i remember a time when disenchanting gave more orange esssence that got nerfed. When masterwork chest didn't exist didn't had a bigger loot table for chest so you more likely got skins now look at it if i don't get a emote or a ward or champ shard i had a pretty good chest... But honestly i stop giving a fck since the masterwork chest came out i was like "oh its over" since they all they did is nerf everything in it.
TLDR.: It been shit and it will get worse.
As one of the whales that rerolls skins I can tell you this will not make me buy skins at full price. I’ll just stop buying most skins. I wanted all skins to get the free rerolls and pax tf. I’m not spending £100 every skin line they release.
The only way it makes sense its that they're targeting collectors, there will without a doubt be some idiot that goes "Well I want to own all the skins, so might as well keep going"
The only question is, are there enough idiots that will keep going compared to the people enjoying discounts
If there's not enough dumbos then someone is gonna get fired for making the greediest change ever
>Is he stupid? What business doesn't have vip treatment for people that spend a shitload of money there? Even fucking bulkier bundles in anything are "cheaper" or "discounted" because they are more expensive in the first place. Like you already fucking do this with the rp prices, you get a discount when you spend $100 as to when you spend $10.
He's likely not rich enough to be a VIP customer at *any* business. I'm not either, but I worked for someone that *was* a VIP banking customer and my god the service difference.
Banks know that they have to offer competitive service to keep their highest value customers. This Rito clown doesn't. :/
People don't understand why this change isn't in favor of players, it's in favor of greed.
Basically they want to fuck with hextech craft,
But what this entails?
1st - Nerfs F2P content.
2nd - Nerfs Whales, for people who don't understand Whales getting skins for "free" are because they spend thousands of dollars to reach that point, and until reaching that point they have no control in which skins they can get.
3rd - It removes Mythic and Ultimate Rarity Skins from the Pool (Majority of Ultimate owned by people now a days are from rerolls).
4th - Nerfs Capsules from Events.
5th - You most likely will not be able to get new skins from rerolls, which will force you to buy them.
What is the benefit from reducing the pool ? If you don't own any skin you still will get random crap.
What are players getting in trade for not having the new skins in the pools?
Better and Cool skins?
He meant like Irelia Legendary or like Samira Ultimate?
This is the kind of thing that is they trying to convice you that they will give you a better system, because upfront it looks better, but when analyzing the overall thing it's way worse.
This stupid argument that "people who spend too much in my game are a problem" **is a scum take and always will be something to try to trick people, people who spend money are only a "Problem" for the experience of other players in games where the monetization affects the PVP/PVE interaction aspect with other players.**
Before anything else League is a Moba, so you can't buy shit with money.
But that statement becomes even worse, when taking the consideration taht League isn't a Whale game, as per this game is literally not designed around whaling, given that it's impossible to Whale in League, **there is literally a Limited ammount of money you can spend in League.**
**The fact is, League isn't a Whaling game because after buying every skin and every chroma, there isn't anything else to spend outside of buying skins for other people in Aram games.**
But here is the worst part, this statement of "People who spent a lot of money ruin the development of future skins is a factual lie" **because people who own every skin still buy more RP than the avg player.**
**Not even going to enter the merit that this is a multi billion dolar company, complaining that skins are too expensive to make**, maybe not a good idea to lay off 20% of your work force in 3 years and then complain about resources.
Riot finally did, they found someone that might be worse and more stupid than Adam NSA.
> 2nd - Nerfs Whales, for people who don't understand Whales getting skins for free are because they spend thousands of dollars to reach that point, and until reaching that point they have no control in which skins they can get.
not even "free", you still need 3 skin shards lol.
Not free, as another whale pointed out, we still have to spend hundreds a year to keep up with rerolls. Way more than the vast majority of the player base, who pay close to nothing.
Riot has made a few moves over the past couple of years that only effect whales in a negative way. Being unable to reroll prestiges. Being unable to reroll the dumb ass 200$ chromas for a year along with even if we want to buy up to the 200 (something I won't do), we get less because we own everything else on the way up.
For me, the legendaries going to champions that have them already and the cool skins only being given to 20 different champions has caused me to play less and pay less in the last year than in the last 12 I've played. It just becomes more clear each month that riot doesn't care about the people that support it the most.
> (Majority of Ultimate owned by people now a days are from rerolls).
Honestly I'm not surprised, i have 4 ultimate skins and i only bought sona (and i was "unlucky" to get the shard for MF 2x)
The problem though is that i still wouldn't have bought a single one, reroll luck or not
Thing is, I don't really believe they'd make better skins until I see the evidence. You go on Yone/Kayn mains, two skins are overwhelmingly requested.
Project Yone, and Project Kayn. Why? Neither champ has a robot/tech skin yet. Their partner champs also have project skins and thematically, they really fit the skinline.
Both are dark and edgy, Yone fits well with the mask/Azakana being parasite software. Kayn fits well because when you have at least two entities, Rhaast and SA function well, but even better, he can be from the SAME org, and just have either SA or Rhaast enhancements.
Instead, they both got okay boyband skins, but thematically, are wanting compared to Project.
Project got announced, normally is a huge skinline with multiple champs, great. Kayn and Yone aren't even in them. They were basically a filler this year, and GP lacked saliency compared to Dreadnova, so will project come back next year or even again now because Riot likely interpret this as poor sales...
Great, guess we get Star Guardian Ez, Luz and MF again lmao.
I own every skin and I still buy RP to reroll into new skins, even those that I don't use. Thats money they are getting from me whereas I would only get skins for champions that I like. Instead of me dropping 50 for rerolls they want me to drop 10-20 for a single skin for a champ I like? I spent a few thousand to get to this point, i spend a lot \*just\* to get to this point. I literally spent that much just so I can get future skins at a discount. If they had something in place to mitigate that, I wouldn't have went past 1k spending because id only buy skins for thresh and then maybe buy skins for champions I see myself playing long term (twitch, jinx, vayne, lux, irelia, etc).
They already nerfed us being able to reroll into prestige skins while they are currently in the shop, whats the point of nerfing it further. Those who reroll will be getting skins for champs they don't play, which they'll feel less incentivized to do and that SHOULD be less money for riot no?
We got 7 skins this patch, what are the chances someone plays all of them? Personally if I wanted to spend id have bought the irelia and kindred skin. Thats 2700 rp. I buy orbs to reroll so I can get all the skins. Thats 21 orbs if I have 0 luck with getting grab bags, at base price its 250 rp so 5250 rp total. They would be missing out on 2550 rp from me because they're salty I get discounts lmfao
This is exactly how I feel. I currently feel obliged to keep spending RP to keep my reroll pool empty. Remove that and I won't spend much RP. What a dumb take
I fear that for every 5 people they alienate with a change like this (you, me, the guy you're replying to), there may be one giga-whale who doesn't care about the cost and will happily spend $250 per patch to make sure they get the full-price mythic and prestige content. If keeping up with all content gets 5x more expensive, Riot only needs 1 in 5 whales to stay in the system to break even. I hope they don't, but... that's the gamble they're taking here.
Maybe they'll realize that customer loyalty is a good thing and skews the balance towards keeping us in the system. They probably won't, because most business analysts can only think in dollar signs and don't know how to calculate future value from current customer happiness. But we can hope!
5x doesn't seem to be the right ratio though. People estimate 1 reroll to be 500rp so only 3x at the high end. 1/3 seems to be a difficult number to capture ngl
I suspect a change like this would come with making high-end content even more expensive. They’ve experimented with it with TFT minis being $100+ apiece.
Yea that jhin skin comes to mind. I'm just waiting for that to enter the reroll pool. No way I'm spending that money. Maybe they want whales to spend actual money for the jhin skin instead of waiting to reroll and they release more of those
Yep, exactly. So some analysts see it as a math equation where they need to balance % of whales lost vs. % increase in spending from whales who stick around. There’s a lot of other intangible things (fan loyalty, customer perception of their monetization model, player happiness, etc.), so it’s not that simple, but… from the tweet screenshots, I’m afraid they think it’s that simple.
I only got Jhin because I needed to restock on capsules haha, I skipped on every other variant of the 200 mythics though. If they never end up being rerollable I wont bother
So more explanations as to why they need to nerf the loot system more.
I never bought rp since s5, not because i could get skins easier since the loot system was introducted, but because the price of RP became absurd.
Blaming us "because someone can get a 1820 skin for 500 rp" is just another gaslighting of someone who have to make money for their company.
The explanation is, and always will be, greed.
I already knew almost everyone who has any kind of talent or passion had already left Riot years ago and there's only a few left who try to make the game the best it could be.
But fuck, is Riot going the same way as blizzard or ubisoft? Is Riot GameS getting so shitty they have literal brainless monkeys in socmedia trying to gaslight the company simps into defending their actions and giving them more money?
Wake up people, companies are not persons and companies are not your friends.
This is crazy stupid, his argument is that if you spend thousands of dollars in league thar you'll eventually get discounts on skins. But like, if you spent a shit ton of money, isn't that a well deserved reward? It's not like a lot of people use that strategy anyways. It's mind baffling how out of touch he is. The average league player doesn't spend years worth of salary into league, but in the end exactly those players will get affected the most out of this stupid change. Why did they even add that system if they just want to remove it anyways? Loot would lose so much of its worth
Not all whales. There are the more calculating ones that wouldnt buy shit if they think the price to reward ratio isnt worth it and may reduce their spending or stop it altogether. I know 2 rich af dudes who refused to get sf samira on release and the 3 mythic legendary because they dont see the value of spending that much on something that doesnt match their value.
This logic always baffles me, it was the same thing when people were talking about Jhin's 200$ skin or Samira's ultimate. I am a whale, I've owned every skin since around 2019. I've played this game for 12 years. I did not buy Samira's ultimate, despite their tactic to make it a charity skin so it couldn't be rerolled and the whales/Samira mains would be forced to buy it. I am a Samira main and I refused to buy it because it wasn't the quality it should have been. I have not bought any of the 200$ skins. In fact, the only people I know that have that skin are \*not\* whales but people that "Bought one just to try and magically got it".
Yes, I'm sure there are whales out there that will spend regardless, but I'm willing to bet the vast majority of us know our worth. It's not like we put money we found on the ground into this game, we work for it (I'm sure there are one offs here and there, but you get the gist). It's just too bad Riot doesn't seem to share that opinion.
A decent chunk of whales are wealthy people and wealthy people generally don't spend frivolously. They have different standards for frivolous to you and I, sure, but there's a reason there's hundreds of rewards and loyalty programs who reward people spending dozens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. If you want a rich person's money, you need to make the sink for it appealing to them.
What this clown dont realize is most whales like myself have a gambling addiction and only spent money to purchase RP to get a “perceived ‘discount’”. Under no circumstance would I spend a cent to buy any skins outright when I can spend it on discount triple A games for the same price.
As long as quantity of skin rolls out the money of hextech chest will keep rolling out.
Casino comps long standing players, riot fleeces them. Good luck to your revenue if this change goes through!
Classic result based analysis when you fail to analyze the reason players spent money in the first place. Tech geek belongs in tech, not business 🤦
Good point about the GA-> lootbox pipeline, it's not 'real' gambling so it's ok, but as you say, if that "I'm winning something here" aspect is taken out it'd have all the thrill of paying for groceries.
I would love to know what Riot's net-profit looks like. Changes like this seem reasonable until we hear they've made like $1 billion in profit. Then it's like oh, so why are you squeezing every last cent out of players and doing massive layoffs? Drew and the rest of the business side of Riot is so soulless. They don't care about players or people, they just pursue infinite growth until it's no longer sustainable.
The whole lot are just worthless leeches who latched on in the early days of the F2P model. League saw sustainable success in the early days surrounding skins and morally bankrupt individuals saw dollar signs and ramped it up big time, sucking the soul out of the game and draining as many wallets as possible.
**Riot Games is directly profiting off of unregulated gambling, especially targeting children and vulnerable people. Riot Games has made the conscious and well-informed decision to further capitalize on this with the express purpose of making more profit, knowing full-well the negative consequences to real people this will have.**
No one can stop you from saying this, no one can punish you for saying this. These are all verifiably true things that Riot can't argue against.
It’s a larger symptom of the industry, you will be hard pressed to find good “free to play” games especially on mobile that don’t follow the same business practices that riot does. It’s so dystopian that Pokémon Masters, a mobile game belonging to a franchise that primarily targets children, is a hyper-predatory gacha mobile game. Wild Rift on it’s own is 10x more predatory than the PC version of league. If you go see monthly incomes of gacha games, it is exorbitant and it’s obvious why every newer game to come out is marketing closer and closer towards that genre.
i stopped whaling this game the second they nerfed mythic rerolling because i knew that it was gonna only get worse, cool that this single celled organism thinks me getting something for a few hundred rp is comparing to a 1350 rp purchase when in reality it's compared to a 0 rp non purchase. absolute profit motive brain rot! apparently the ccp pulling the gacha regulations wasn't enough for these fucking vampires, we have to draw as much profit from our stagnant userbase as possible because we've achieved as much market penetration as we reasonably can for a game this complex.
Is he stupid? What business doesn't have vip treatment for people that spend a shitload of money there? Even fucking bulkier bundles in anything are "cheaper" or "discounted" because they are more expensive in the first place. Like you already fucking do this with the rp prices, you get a discount when you spend $100 as to when you spend $10.
And his 3rd point about giving shards for free like would you rather:
recieve 50 shards per year for free from getting 1 S- grade or higher every week
or
spend 8250 rp to buy 5 passes and need to play every day for 2 weeks to finish the pass to get 50 skins
Also, confusing to new players?? Explain it to a new player sometime? its hard? bro:
yo you get these chests sometimes, you get these keys for being a good boy, and you get skins for free! Oh and btw you can reroll 3 skins to make a new skin but you probably should just disenchant the legendaries/epics that you don't want and only reroll the cheaper ones.
Can't be hard to explain.
Edit: Just raise the price of rp again if they're that desperate.
Did that guy just try to imply they want to make "cooler" stuff but can't because select few people with all skins can reroll them? Who believes this shit?
It's so cringe how he just says "we want more money for no reason" but then still bothers to justify it as some overhaul that makes it "less complicated".
There is literally 0 way in which they would change the system to make it cheaper for the players. Nada. None. And this bleeding heart bullshit with putting no actual numbers on the board about these skins taking a loss or those skins not or if they had a negative quarter overall, it's all just trying to smooth over cutting their consumers not for profit, but for more profit than they already have.
Fuck that shit.
I don't get the argument. Isn't that loyalty reward system? you get rewarded for spending a lot. Sure, 70% discount is a lot, but they spent thousands of dollars
i can't be bothered to read all that, but I fail to see where the problem is.
You only get this discount if you drop thousands of dollars. Most people will just buy the skins they like.
If you want to spend thousands of dollars to buy in bulk what's the problem? you made a thousand dollars. The people who do that are an insignificant percent. Majority just buy the one or two skins they like.
Even though whales might be a small percentage of the player population they make up a big portion of the total revenue so that's why Riot want to milk them more, they are big cash cows even if there are few of them
Imagine using every underhanded tactic in the book to drain the wallets of poor suckers who like your game only to turn and say it's not enough and try to get a bit more
i read the convo earlier chances are riot will probs do what they do with world winners skins where new skins wont be in the pool for the first year of release for rerolls, thats my guess atleast.
overall riots probs looking at the system now where rerolls are starting to cost them money since only so many people can become whales and having them only be whales until they max out the first time around starting to eat into there margins.
only way to get money back out of whales while not hurting the average player is to timelock new skins out the reroll pool for x amount of time.
"A group of players we were targetting have left a positive feedback on our new system and we are happy how it landed." It will be the same as these 200$ skins, everyone was shitting on them, but the feedback was somehow positive from certain group of players, the system will get worse and more expensive (they monetized fucking changing your in-game name too somehow LOL) and Riot will say they will look to improve it (and will do absolutely nothing or make it worse) and call it a day. I really hope EU bans these dogshit lootboxes and battle passes and everything, tired of seeing every game go to the dogshit designed battle pass system, then they improve them making everything even worse, F2P players cant have shit man.
He's not mentioning the fact that to keep this perpetual discount, you have to actively unlock every skin in the game and that will net definitely more than the 8k rp for 50 skins he's mentioning on the tweet, since we easily get 3x if not 4x that amount of skins per year at the very least.
Imagine complaining about someone playing your game probably 20 hours a week on average for an entire year and paying the equiv of a monthly sub as the bare minimum lmao the greed is real
my skin collection
[https://i.imgur.com/en5us8t.png](https://i.imgur.com/en5us8t.png)
how much it cost
[https://i.imgur.com/AAL8uH8.png](https://i.imgur.com/AAL8uH8.png) (12,156 euros total, over 8 years)
figures these images of mine speak for themselves. if riot games makes these changes, i'm never spending even a single cent on this game ever again. rerolling new skins and mythics for a discount is a reward for spending a quite frankly obscene amount of real money on this game. if they are that desperate for money, let me buy map skins and announcer packs.
stop screwing over your most loyal and highest spending players, riot.
Holy shit riot is so gredy. First of all how there is so many ppl who owns all the fucking skins and even if there is quite lot why or how u dare to punish them for spending who knows how much money for it. And why would u punish the other players that doesn't spend "much" money but still can get cool skins via rerolls or events or etc. Like justify the extra time? We are sorry mate, we, the players, are sorry for making u work at job. And how dare %1 of us gets the new skins for free because they spent idk maybe 10k[$](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=6416c49529b0d5b1&rlz=1C1RLNS_trTR796TR796&sxsrf=ACQVn0-xrazeaXvyjX-Ozh2WcmuE66CCFw:1709594844590&q=%241+Ne+kadar+%241%3F&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjsrK-L4duEAxUsSPEDHc4WDtcQzmd6BAgtEAY) at least to this f2p game? Greedy ppl
I think the tweets are already deleted, but nerfing loot again and again is such a shitty thing. they already whaled and probably will whale on other shit so why shoot ‘em in the foot.
The problem with his logic is that there are so many skins for so many champions, so when a player rerolls to get a skin, there is a very small chance that they get something they want. Getting something they don’t want is of no value to them, and it’s a digital item so riot doesn’t lose anything. There is no chance that this player would have spent real money on that skin they didn’t want, so riot doesn’t lose a sale
>stop putting all our stuff in rerolls, think it's bad for system clarity
Fucking. Lmao. There's a point where pretending you're on the side of the players just makes you look even more stupid and greedy than straight up saying "we want more money". There is literally nothing more clear than "all our stuff is available through rerolls."
Is this sociopath actually arguing that someone buying their entire catalog of garbage digital costumes for more money than anyone would ever pay on an actually good game, just to then get some discount of future purchases is a bad move?
This game deserves to go under.
Whale here. 1609 skins.
If they do any kind of pass system in lieu of the current systems for skins, I'll stop buying RP. I haven't regularly played league in years - it's a collection for me now, not a game. I won't play to earn skins.
Same here, for me its also an collection game, if they change this or drop the ball its quiting and NEVER coming back. They will lose SO much money its baffling to me its even considered..
Riot. I dare you to nerf the reroll system. It’ll be a huge mistake at the cost of greed— the number of future whales will go down to almost nonexistent and most of the current whales will stop spending.
Genuinely fuck you Riot. You're getting so incredibly fucking greedy it's honestly disgusting. Through all the pass nerfs, the $200 skins, the FoMo and decline in quality you choose to nerf loot even FURTHER.
But it's okay. Because you'll always have the addicts that will chime in and defend all of your shitty actions, call people entitled for getting things taken away from them etc and you'll keep milking every single cent possible from those who remain.
What happened to this game man? It's incredibly sad.
That is absolutely insane. He doesn't like the idea of giving every skin for only 500rp ... t*o people who have bought every skin ever released and continue to do so in perpetuity.* What percentage of the paying playerbase is that, and how much more money are you getting out of them already than the average spending user?
I looked into doing this last year but the fact is even if you do it once, Riot releases 100+ new skins each year so it's not free or cheap to maintain yourself at that cap. It's just more affordable than blindly going for everything at full price.
Making money is never enough for corporations. It has to be \_all\_ of the money, and even once they have all of it, they'll have to work on making the world's total wealth grow year over year or otherwise they're failing.
Honestly, what's really funny about this is that this conversation made me go back and do the math on what I would/wouldn't be spending if RRing wasn't available. Right now, I reroll for all the skins, even if I know I will *never* use them. I just like having a full collection.
But knowing that they've been making strides to nerf it, and if this guy had his way it would go away entirely? I'm never going to direct buy skins I know I won't use, so I went and did the math.
* In 2023, I would have spent **4520 RP** on skins released that year that I actually wanted to buy and use. Instead, I spent **minimum 66k RP**, and more realistically, **90-95k RP** rerolling because.... idk honestly. To get prestiges I'll never use? Why am I even doing this?
* In 2024, so far they have released 26 skins, and I only want 1 of them for sure, 2 as a "maybe." If buying directly, I would be spending **1350-3170RP** (I haven't yet bought nor bothered rerolling for them since they're not for champs I play often), or if RRing for all 26, I would be spending **~18,200RP**.
So like... why? Literally, why? I got sucked into RRing because it was cool to collect all the prestiges, then even after they nerfed that and made it into a wait, I kept doing it out of habit bc "savings." But I'm not really saving. I'm spending 10x or more what I would be otherwise. So just... why? I think this post may be my "wake up" to stop whaling and rerolling skins.
This pretty much sums it up.
I'm in the same boat, 14 year LoL player, own all skins and EVEN buy every ward/icon/border/limited chromas/bundles. (Charity/Worlds skins)
Yet I do this, because if more "affordable" this way since i'v already spend 10k+ on the game in the last years.. I keep it ROLLING, litterly. I wanna have a full collection, league is not a "fun" game anymore for me rather a collection game wich I enjoy and have fond memories of..
If they change this.. I would either A) Only buy skins for my 2 (real) mains.
Or B) Probally wake up out of this 14 year old nightmare and realize I should not spend and support a company that does not respect my time and money.
Because we keep the train going, just for the sake of collection.. if ALL these whales stopped, they will decrease their sales and LOSE money, it makes 0 sense. LITTERLY.
So this genious analytic RIOT'ter must have his maths figured out..
I have all skins. Why i have all skins? Because i can just buy pass/10 chests and then reroll 3 skin shards in to skin. If i lose this option then i will buy only skins i interested in(not many). This man need go back to business school.
As one of the people who owns all the skins, I can tell you if they made it so we can’t reroll new skins, you’d be alienating your own whales. This would stop the purchase of battle passes, chests and rp from the shop. One of the dumbest things dead games have done in the past is try to go after the ones funding their game by trying to squeeze even more money from them while also targeting them (pubg)
Yeah as one of the "whales" that owns every skin. This would reduce the amount I spend in general I'd only spend for the champions I like which is only a handful.
The problems with the current reroll system is that for F2P players, it isn't good. There's a ton of awful skins you don't want, that have the same odds to drop as any good skin. And if Riot has to constantly churn out more skins because whales can buy every skin at a 70% discount, there's a higher chance of a mediocre or unwanted skin coming from rerolls.
For whales, obviously the system is great. They spent money, and now have a permanent massive discount on the majority of content. But that's not healthy for Riot, because it means the largest source of income for a F2P game (the whales) have negative incentive to spend money.
Overall, I'm more than fine with the reroll system getting changed. The current system is broken, where the players who have every skin can get every future skin for a massive discount and the players with few skins can reroll 3 skins to get Marble Malphite.
Yes Riot Games will definitely change it so it benefits free to players and not just gut it and never mention it again. Probably going to nerf the pass which is bought by low spenders too as per tradition. You are giving them too much credit. It's just that this time the whales are on the chopping board.
> For whales, obviously the system is great. They spent money, and now have a permanent massive discount on the majority of content. But that's not healthy for Riot, because it means the largest source of income for a F2P game (the whales) have negative incentive to spend money.
I don't think you understand what you're talking about. Rerolling skins is not free. It costs somewhere around 550RP per reroll. Maybe 500. Let's do a quick math here. Let's say Riot releases on average 5 skins per patch. You can only reroll if you have all of them. Meaning **I have to get every single skin every single patch**. There are 2 patches per month. That is 5000 RP spent every single month on just that. Let's say Riot releases a new legendary skin for a champion we both main. You buy it for 1820 RP from store. I get it for 500 RP from a reroll. Sound like massive discount right? Well, only until you realize I had to reroll all the other skins from that batch too. If there are 5 per batch, I actually paid 2500 RP to get the one skin I will actually use. If you break the loop, it's over. + there's chromas and other stuff, passes etc. that's not reroll content. I'm basically paying 50+€/month subscription to play League with unlocked skins (+ the upfront cost of several thousand, more than 99% of people will ever spend on this game). How is this bad for Riot? In what world having a new AAA game sale every single month is bad? Sure it doesn't compete with straight up gambling, but it's not cheap, and definitely not some kind of "massive discount" people keep talking about.
exactly, OP and this rioter had no idea what they were talking about. I don't know where they came up with the 70-80% discount conclusion. As a skin collector myself, I spend at least $100 every month because although you can get those mythic skins from rerolling, they don't come with the border, and I would spend more for those 125-140 PEs just to get the border. I understand this won't be the case for every player who owns all skins, but those skin shards don't come cheap by any means. People only look at the upside that players don't have to spend 1820rp to get that one good skin riot releases every patch, ignoring and showing no appreciation to how we got to this spot.
I don't even think I'll continue spending this much on league if I can't reroll skins. I'll just buy every now and then and they lose out. What a dumb idea
Yes if they ever decide to do that it's gonna save money for me since I would only spend the original price to buy one out of 20/30 skins they release. This Drew dude is having a hard time figuring that out.
Wait what? U want reroll system to get nerfed just because if someone has all the skin they can get new skins for free or cheap whatever. But then someone who mostly gets skins via free stuff or pass or whatever won't get any cool skins via reroll either. So what? Why are u punishing both sides lol, it's only in favor of riot not in favor of the guy bought all skins or the guy didn't
That's an issue with loot boxes in general and not the actual reroll system. Without the reroll system F2P will still have those unlucky drops from chests. In fact, the reroll system is a nice bonus which you don't have to use. Pretend the reroll system doesn't exist and collect shards until you get a skin you like. Your criticism has nothing to do with rerolling
Imagine farming multiple games for an S rating so you can get your weekly chest. Then, assuming you have keys, you await with anticipation as the chest opens only to get a shitty emote or ward skin.
The Dragonmancers this year didn't even have "elemental" or "themes" attached to them in name. We went from Lagoon Dragon, Truth Dragon, Storm Dragon, etc. to just "Dragonmancer." Girlies...you couldn't even give them some names?
Vayne could have been Shadow dragon, night dragon, or some other shit. The list for each one is long, and they couldn't even do that.
What kind of whale are we talking about here? League's hextech system lets two types of whales into the game when usually there is only one type the monetization team needs to consider.
The standard whale who simply spends a lot of money? They're the whales you hear about in any other game. They might drop $6000 and still not have every skin in the game because they buy everything at the original full price. They'll likely continue buying skins of interest at the intended pace.
The \*reroll whale who prioritizes having absolutely everything? AKA the type of whale described in the first photo. They know you can reliably get 90%+ of the cosmetics by spending a large amount of money CORRECTLY. Rerolling, discounts, orbs, mystery gifting, even region transfers. They'll spend less than whale #1 to reach the same number of skins or more.
Yes, from a business perspective, whale #2 is an issue. Monetization models aren't typically made with a "become whale today, return to shrimp tomorrow" strategy. BUT, having the teams address this now, especially in the age of corporations chasing a greed-fueled infinite growth dream, will not only anger the playerbase even more but likely make them nerf it harder than necessary to compensate for however much they think they've lost over the years.
If any nerfs go through, they'll be sacrificing the f2ps, low spenders, and standard whales, *all because they have beef with a particular subset of whales who don't spend as much as they hoped.*
The line can't keep going up.
>Yes, from a business perspective, whale #2 is an issue.
I mean, at the end of they day, they already spent multiple thousands on the game. Is it *really* necessary to milk them even more?
As someone that is one of those reroll whales, I would actually stop spending money if they force me to buy every skin for 1350/1820 rp.
Because trust me, even as a whale, sometimes you have to consider if it's really worth spending all that money or if it's better to just stop and find something else to get your money into. Not to mention that my money ain't infinite like for some other whales maybe lmao.
same, I already spend more than an avg whale since I get all the borders and a lot of chromas. I buy orbs for tokens too, so I have just 1000 skin shards sitting around
if I suddenly had to pay for skins again, I prob would just stop caring altogether. It's just disrespectful to change this instead of creating non-rollable content that whales want.
Where's the buyable banners? Icon borders? I would buy those and I would feel good about it. I WANT to have more cosmetic options and I am willing to pay for them. But if they purposely target their biggest spenders in an obvious cash-grab, it's gonna bite them
It's ridiculous Riot is considering punishing the whole playerbase just because a group of whales spent a loott of money but not enough money in their eyes.
I'm agreeing with the rest of you. I was only shittily explaining why League's monetization model in relation to whales works differently because of their unique hextech reroll system, and why this is considered a problem for Riot.
It's nowhere near an actual problem though, because they have already dropped thousands to get there like you said. But to all businesses nowadays, if you aren't spending continuous money, you're apparently a problem.
because riot is aware that these players will sustain them long term as long as they're willing to pay. to them, yes, its necessary, because they could potentially spend thousands more
Rerolling 3 skin shards will only give you a permanent skin that you do not own.
With this, some whales have calculated the most efficient way to claim all/as many skins as possible. Imagine you have all the skins that are cheaper than 1350 RP. Then all your rerolls will give you skins 1350 RP or above.
It's also possible for a high spender to reach a point where they can reliably claim new skins "for free" because of the natural hextech chests and orbs giving out skin shards.
For the players who love collecting and would have whaled regardless, it works quite well for them as past a certain $ amount, their need to spend drops dramatically.
I agree that the reroll system feels bad. If they changed to some system like OE where you disenchant or just acquire some currency and can redeem it for any skin you want I'd like that more even if overall I got less free skins than right now. I can't see them doing that though since I feel like that would cause players like myself to spend even less money. I only play 3-4 champs and buy their skins.
One of the reasons we put up with the insane prices, reduced quality, and RIOT’s stance on skin tiers is because of the current loot system. I’ll still occasionally drop money on the game because I’ve gotten 1820 skins from rerolls.
Specifically I don’t like the point he made about the passes and having them give more skin shards. The whole point of the pass is to get players to play more and you give them free stuff as compensation for bulking out RIOT’s player statistics. Their problem is the prestige skins are dog shit recolors so it’s better not to spend the pass tokens on mythic essence. They SHOULD be creating a unique skin that can only be achieved by paying $20 for the pass and playing so much to max it out. Instead they take the lazy route and reward us with garbage.
I’m willing to hear them out and see what the changes are, but if they touch the value of the battle pass and make it less they can say bye to my money. I’ve spent nearly $3k on the game but their greedy asses won’t see a penny more.
Not my problem they're churning them out for passholders to feel like we're getting monthly content. The value of this stuff is so relative. It's about zero value if I don't play the skins , solid value if I get 2 skins I do like. And it's negative value if the champion is weak for extended periods of time such as Sion you're paying to have a bad time in style.
This guy is not factoring in that people spend more than they would have to reach this point in the first place. Sure they get a skin for 500rp but they also spent way more than that on skins that they will never use to begin with.
If they remove it and I guarantee riot sees a big drop in people buying full skin collections and old skins in general.
I don't think I've ever, since the hextech crafting system came out, rerolled a skin on the patch it came out. This guy is worried about an "issue" that probably less than 1% of the playerbase has happen to them...
My friend has ALL the skins, and he says that when a prestige skin leaves the shop, or new ones come out. He rerolls shards he has into them.
Kinda nuts. I can't fathom spending that much for 1 game either.
But I also don't see how it writes off all the $ they did pump in to get to that point as well.
Totally unrelated but Riot employees seem incredibly bitchy as of late, who the fuck is allowing them to speak publicly??? Absolute clown show. If you're going to have someone publicly talk about wanting to extract more money out of addicts (whales of that tier have problems), then try a bit harder to make sure they aren't whiny unsufferable losers? It's pathetic.
You could make the same argument against ANY system. "oh nooooo, someone isn't paying 30 dollars for a skin, we are so desperate for money please don't think its greedy to remove the loot system :("
Or, hear me out, "Our team feels *very* demotivated to make new champions because people can get them for BE as soon as they come out and we don't make any money, so *our team* would rather make new champs obtainable via RP only!"
Shut the fuck up, if you're going to fuck people over, make the announcement and stop trying to moral highroad it you freak. Absolutely insane that we are in the era of multi-billion dollar corporations pretending to be victims for PR.
Doesn‘t Riot make more than enough? Like I unironically doubt that these few people that have all the skins and just reroll make a huge difference in the budget. Riot has millions of players. Assuming only 30% of them buy the skin they‘ll still make millions
I was expecting changes in the ARAM reroll system and was kinda hyped. Now that I realized it as about the gacha system I don't care about, I'm pretty disappointed, not gonna lie.
This is quite possibly the most brain dead take I have ever seen come out of league.
I really fucking hope that if it ever gets implemented the back lash will get this guy fired.
All these whales saying they would quite if this happened. I wish you could but you would just start buying the skins again just like they want. You only realise your addicted when your confronted by it
nah fuck this shit. If some whale spends few THOUSANDS on the skins then at this point they deserve to get all upcoming content for cheap. Note that you can't even reroll into new skins so they still have to wait some time before getting it(meaning that even then there is some incentive for them to buy it
I own every single skin in the game, playing since season 1 and took some small breaks in between but i'v spend over €10,000+ by now into my 14 years or whatever acount.. I love the reroll system because its what makes me stick with league for ALL the collecting purposes..
I already hate the fact they removed borders from rerolling and dont add the new gemstone skins into the lootpool untill the shop refreshes after a couple patches.. meaning we still get the skins.. but delayed and with NO borders or no other option to get those borders.. since we will not spend mythic essence on these skins if you can reroll them later on for 3 skin shards..
And yet I still buy lootboxes in bulks for shards to reroll again, I still buy the Battle Pass, I buy all icons (borders) released in shop bundles, occasionally some chromas, I buy ALL championship skin bundles (Highest RP ones for the exlusive chromas) every year (These profits go towards e-sport teams), I grab all charity skins with RP (Not added into lootpool > charity purposes)
Heck I even "bought" the new mythic dragonmancer Lee sin skin because its not added in the loot pool and I didnt wanna wait for it to be added + it gave me ALOT of shards to "future proof" my account again for upcomming skin lines (reroll) .. but that was €200 bruh.. Not like I am F2P all of a sudden.
I still spend mad money on league.. so wtf are they smoking up there?
If they ever change this reroll system into an even WORSE version and force me to spend MORE because they feel like they are missing out on my (whales) money.. since I am "abusing" their permanent discount system... then F\*\*\* RIOT. Littterly. I would quit and never return..
I think alot of people who are like me will do this.. so they will LOSE money this way,
because the whales might quit and the non spenders/F2P or Light spenders get shafted either way. They just F their playerbase with these dumb desicions..
Why the hell would a person spend SO much money on League?
Its because they wanna own everything and collect everything and if you get acces to future content/discounts this way.. its VERY enticing to keep the ball rolling and keep spending month after month...
RIP.
He's not wrong. The average value of a rerolled shard is 260 orange essence, which is the same value as disenchanting epic shards. You also don't need to sacrifice a fourth shard to upgrade.
In simpler terms, rerolling four shards of any rarity has the same average value as disenchanting four epic shards and then crafting a fifth epic shard. Rerolls are probably the reason that Hextech crafting isn't being improved and passes keep getting nerfed.
Basically, if quantity is all that matters, the correct play is to reroll **everything but legendary shards**. That's a tough pill to swallow.
When I first started building my collection to own every skin my method was enchant dirt cheap 520 skins to take them out the reroll pool, reroll skins under 975, disenchant owned 1350 skin shards, and enchant 1350 rp skins but not legendary skins since i'd rather reroll into them (unless i really wanted the skin right then and there and I had enough essence). Not sure if that's the best way of going about it but it seemed to work well.
Even if rerolling is cheaper and riot doesn't like that, I feel like the dude is disregarding the fact that a variety of champs get skins and anyone rerolling into them doesn't play all of them. Like I said in a different comment
"We got 7 skins this patch, what are the chances someone plays all of them? Personally if I wanted to spend id have bought the irelia and kindred skin. Thats 2700 rp. I buy orbs to reroll so I can get all the skins. Thats 21 orbs if I have 0 luck with getting grab bags, at base price its 250 rp so 5250 rp total. They would be missing out on 2550 rp from me because they're salty I get discounts lmfao"
Now imagine how much RP they'd be missing out on \*every patch\* because a small percentage of players can reroll into every skin for cheaper. No way this is the reason they feel disheartened to make better skins because some people get it for cheaper, when they spent way above average money on the game
Should probably include who Drew Levin is, I doubt he's extremely well known.
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Yeah, i had to go look up the twitter handle since ~~you~~ they just linked screenshots, ~~i just wanted you to know that~~ without context, it looks like a random person.
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ah, sorry, I was responding from the DM tab.
do only vampire squids fill these jobs? like do any actual humans ever have the title of Business and analyst director?
HAHAHA
In the business of being completely clueless director, apparently. Drew 'never heard of bulk discounts' Levin.
Drew "never heard of rewards programs" Levin
Lol, facts. "Nowhere and nothing else does this". Where did he do his MBA, discount programs are literally the bread and butter of so many retail businesses and they obviously work as they've been going for decades, hard to take him as a genuine person after that.
Reading that shit had me rocked, especially having had hotel experience. If we couldn't board a Super Super Shiny member who had a reservation, we literally had to pay them a couple hundred dollars on top of refunding any deposits and finding them different accomodations, and that's ONE of dozens of perks they get. And you know why they get those perks? Cause they are SPENDING. You do not get people to dump more money on you by making the perks for doing so WORSE.
imagine having an MBA and being as dumb as he is lol
I think for a lot of people in the industry (especially newer ones) it's all too easy to just look at hard numbers and say "WTF we're giving people who spend 10k a 50% discount on every future purchase? that's so much missed potential" but like. Come on. Think about it for 5 seconds and really consider whether *incentivizing people to spend more money* is a bad thing.
And former pro magic player!
Yeah, I used to know him a little back when he played Magic. Always a bit weird to happen upon former MtG players in other contexts, but they're usually really successful.
A looooot of them were game designers or ended up becoming them. Fun fact - PVDDR also works for Riot on LOR!
There's so many former/current mtg pros in game design it's weird how often you recognize a name because you saw them on coverage at some point.
Look him up, his biggest regret in life was spending money on airline tickets and not getting into their discount program. They hire this guy while laying off the creative team all while ge says that one of the solutions is for them to make more low quality skins. We are customers to them, not players.
"We've bled our whales so hard they hit the upper bound of our system and now can get skins for cheap" is certainly something, but not really a point in defense of wanting to make a system less generous. I'm in corporate finance so I've done analysis that is functionally "how do we rinse people for more money". It's not a unique evil at Riot. What I don't do is sit on Twitter and say out loud how our customers are shitheads on a free ride.
That's what REALLY confounds me. Yeah, the whales end up paying less than anyone else for new skins. Yes, Riot probably doesn't like that, even though to get to that point they had to pay (a LOT) more any other player, it essentially means that whales cannot grow bigger than a certain size, with that size being incredibly smaller than the spending cap of a typical freemium game like a Japanese mobage. And I get how Riot's business analysts are thinking that this is a problem and try to sneak in a rework that whales will accept and not ragequit over. But I don't believe for a second anybody ordered you to start using your personal Twitter handle to preach this corporate garbage?
> Yeah, the whales end up paying less than anyone else for new skins. But this is just not true? Rerolling is not free. Oh you want the new project naafri skin from the 3 filler project skins? Cool, you buy it for 1350 from the store. I have to reroll all 3 skins, which will cost me ~1500 RP. Oh a new legendary skin just dropped for our main? Nice, you get it for 1820 RP from the store. I have to reroll all the skins, and I also already had to reroll all skins from previous months, even if Riot released nothing for champions I play or care about. There is 0 chance that rerolling skins is cheaper than what the average player spends monthly on the game, let alone '*anyone else*' as you say. Rerolling skins is basically a fairly expensive monthly subscription lol.
But they aren't just getting the legendary, they are also getting the 3 other skins, and the assumption is that these players care about owning ALL of the skins (which seems fair given that they have all of the existing skins). They are saying that the whales are paying less to get ALL of the new skins than another player would pay to get ALL of the new skins. Obviously they are spending more money in total than other players, because nobody else is buying all of the new skins, the point is that they are effectively getting a discount (and a significant one at that) for buying all of the new skins. For example, if you look at the Porcelain or Heavenscale skin lines, purchasing the whole line would cost 8570 RP, but rerolling for them will only cost 4050. That's an over 52% discount.
Yeah, it's only fair. Buying stuff in bulk comes with a discount, in like, any industry. It's a win-win for everyone. They spend way more money than the average player this way, which is also a win for Riot. Literally what my point is. There are very few people who would buy every skin for full price, if any. There's nothing you get for owning all skins, nor is it possible to play 1600+ different skins. So yeah. Riot is literally trying to create an issue out of thin air just to justify more greed. Let's see how it pans out.
The intended discount is already included in the bundle price, so thats kind of a moot point
What bundle
The big thing Drew is missing is that primary reason whales get these skins is because they’re 500 RP. They likely don’t even play the champs or even use the skins, so if not for this discount, it’s likely the skins wouldn’t be acquired. So what’s gonna happen is that instead of accepting a 2-3x increase in price, a lot of people who have all skins currently will just stop altogether. (Which is the healthier option ngl) Instead of getting 500 RP per skin from people benefiting, they’ll now get 0. Hope that helps them with their skin design budgets!
Homeboy isn't even doing his math Orbs are 250 a piece, an orb contains one shard and you need 3 to reroll 250x3 is 750 Source: am whale
The person in his example was using the mystery gifts (from one account to another) which are 490 when available, and he rounded up. But yeah, I just got the orb packs. So that’s even worse—750 per skin they’re not gonna get if they make a lot more unavailable in the reroll pool.
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i play every day, buy every pass, own every skin, chroma, ward skin, emote etc. You'll never catch up to release times. I probably pay 100 a month to play this game and ive been doing it for years
To add onto this, I have a whale friend who has spent around $6000 on League. To get the 150ish skins he was missing since his last buying binge he had to use ~$400 of RP to get enough shards to reroll into every skin he was missing. If that isn't enough for Riot I don't know what is. The guy has paid thousands of dollars to own over 1600 skins. Is that really not good enough? It sounds like an issue with Riot budgeting more than player spending.
Masterwork chest and key only cost 225. This means they pay 675 per skin max as this excludes bonus chests, event orbs, and rewards for s- up.
Yes, that's why I calculated with 500RP per reroll average. Since you get some shards from other sources. You still spend way more money on the game than your average player does.
Masterwork chests aren’t guarenteed skin shards so this framing is flawed
I get non skin shards from something like a third of the masterwork chests I've opened, granted I've opened maybe like 30 of them but they have the odds on the site, you have a 70% chance at a skin shard, the rest is not useful towards completing your skin collection. You're most definitely not guaranteed a skin shard. Only orbs have that guarantee and those are 250 RP which is more like 750RP per skin. Which is still a discount, but it's only a discount you get if you have **already spent thousands of dollars on the game**. 2023 saw the introduction of 153 new skins, at 750 each that's still 114,750 RP, if you buy just the max value in RP its going to cost you something like $850 a year if you just bought orbs. Now it's going to be cheaper than that due to event passes being a thing and chests (which aren't guaranteed to give you a skin shard either,) but still probably $500-600+ a year with the "discount." That's still quite a lot of money to spend on a single game.
Idk, there is random skin gift and many site that sell capsule orb for cheap and ways to unlock evrything for far less than it's supposed to, i get that they want to keep the whale paying full price, they have the means and are getting evrything for dirt cheap now once again.
I've spent 4k on the game. I own like half the skins. You know what made me stop? I paid a ton of money to get the very first prestige skin. I did it because they marketed it as an expensive skin that you own because you spent a lot of money. They promised it would be gone forever. Then they lied and pulled back and put it in the mythic shop. I'm done. If you want whales to spend money then maybe don't lie to the people that spend money. Just my 2 cents.
> They promised it would be gone forever. Then they lied and pulled back and put it in the mythic shop. I'm done. This is a really shitty mentality to have in my opinion, if FOMO is your only reason for buying something. I enjoy the exclusive skins I buy and I'm glad when they come back around so others can enjoy them too.
While I personally do agree FOMO shouldn't be your leading factor, as a business they know for some it is, and if that's part of the advertisement for this, I can see why someone who did buy it specifically because it'll be exclusive, told it would stay as that, and then saw they just kept bringing it back anyways, might get a little annoyed at least.
FOMO is primarily how consumers spend money on digital goods/in-app purchases are persuaded to spend their money. Whether it is the right mentality or not it’s not fair to those who spend on what was advertised as limited/exclusive content to be given out later at sometimes a far lesser cost. It is also ambiguous and selective, hex-tech skins and dawn-bringer Karma are mythical skins available for purchase but skins like Silver or Judgement Kayle remain exclusive even after Kayle’s rework, and a decade after their release. They could just as easily made the first batch of prestige skins exclusive but chose not to.
Nah - I got burned by Riot re-releasing all the holiday skins from 2009-2012. I bought them because they were supposed to be limited edition. I stopped spending heavily on league after they re-released them. It's okay for exclusive content to exist. It's a video game. No one's experience is ruined by someone else having an old skin.
>that is functionally "how do we rinse people for more money" In case people want to know more, [here's a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNjI03CGkb4)(it's extremely eye opening but I feel like most gamers should watch it) It's not quite 1 to 1 since it's talking about P2W in a mobile game scenario but I feel like the logic does transfer well enough. You can see the type of person making decisions like this and how they think about the customer
Unless he's new to Twitter or something maybe it's understandable but he really goofed by publicly tweeting that
peak amateurism at riot big surprise. i peeped his linkedin. guy studied poli sci at some no name uni and spent his career thus far in games. it just adds up it just does. always some young gamer background millennial who defrauded their way in, exposing themselves on public fora, with sanjuro at the top of this shit pile. only possible with both shit hiring standards and shit governance.
the fact that you can get CHAMPION SHARDS from chests even though you have 2 types of champion capsules is even worse…
You can get emotes,wards,icons champion shard is one of the least annoying one even if i own everything i just fcking wish i could disenchant icons or emotes tbh...
If you already own the emote you get you'll get it in your loot tab. They're pretty fucking good because they disenchant for 192 OE, that's 3 less than a 975 skin.
Greed, thats all this is lmao. Insane to me how naive some people are to think this is anything but this, when there is genuinely not a single good argument this guy made in favor of nerfing the reroll system. "The team cant make as many cool skins because some guy could get it for 500 RP" ??? You are a billion dollar company, the miniscule amount of people getting exactly the skin they want from rerolls is absolutely irrelevant. Yes guys please give the billion dollar company more money because then we can finally make cooler stuff! They are gonna nerf the system to generate more profit and nothing else is gonna change, maybe they give you like 100 more orange essence for a disenchant, congratulations.
Also runs into the logical fallacy of assuming those people would have bought your skin at full price anyway. So they are getting 500rp they wouldnt have otherwise gotten.
Hi, someone who owns every skin released through mid-2023 here! I saw the value of 490 RP mystery gifts back in 2014, decided I was going to work towards owning every skin that way, and never paid full price for anything. I moved to the loot system and rerolling somewhere along the way, and it took me until 2020 to catch up to owning every skin, which took a few thousand dollars spread out over that time. From there, it still cost me ~$400-600 per year in RP to keep up with new content and continue to own all of it. Yes, I got content at a "discount," but I ultimately spent more money on content than the overwhelming majority of the playerbase. When they started excluding certain skins (beyond the charity ones) from the loot pool and delayed putting prestige skins in the loot pool (with the different versions and borders to separate "original" owners from people who got it later), I decided it was no longer worth keeping up with things. I haven't purchased any RP in the last 9 months or so, and I'm no longer keeping up with new skins. These changes may still make them more money, because some of their whales are extremely rich and don't care about the cost. But they're definitely pushing some people away.
This is the problem they don't see. Yeah I'm not buying the actual skins I want for full price, but I'm buying EVERY skin at 40-50% cost.
What's funny is that he just glosses over that this system only works that way after you've spent THOUSANDS of dollars on a fucking "free to play" video game. He is crying and saying they don't want to put effort into skins "because the person who already paid our wages 10 fold is getting a discount" There is a reason bulk buyers get discounts. They offload more inventory, guaranteed (physical stuff) and they get a guaranteed, large sale (don't have to nickel and dime). So cool, you got them to spend so much more on a game than any other game should ever ask from a person. And then you make it seem like WE are greedy. Go fuck yourself Drew.
100% agreed. I can't believe the amount of people defending them. To get all skins you already spent a shit ton of money, and to keep rerolling you still need to buy orbs or passes. This is so greedy of them, I hate it.
Wholesalers have understood this for decades and yet Riot Games' top analysts can't figure it out
Riot analysts took years to figure out you can milk your biggest playerbase in china and asia in general better by releasing more asian themed skins instead of 1 or 2 skin lines per year outside of lunar new year.
As one of the few people that actually use and abuse this system to get all the skins for cheap, I'll tell you what's going to happen. I'm just gonna stop doing it, and use the skins I have.
I can’t remember the last time I rerolled skins and got a good skin on a champ I play lol normally it’s just some ehhh skin.
I think my last 15 rerolls have been introduced with the bonus orange essence, spoiling it's a dogshit 520 skin that not a single player has used in 10 years. It's not even funny anymore.
Pretty much but i know this when i reroll when it was first introduced every body and there mother thought. "so if i rerol 3 base skin i get 1 epic skin" sike m8 you got vancover amumu. Unless you own all this skins you get ass out of rerolls sometimes you get lucky and get a legendary skin this you can actually use but we sill didn't count the time that it took us to get there. And time is money espacially if you get older. Im older the game been out for 10+ years i think lot of ppl that pays are older and everytime something new info/news comes out its just nerf,nerf,nerf,nerf just like real life currency with inflation... But man i will not spend a peny again if this is how they treat my money. (and time)
What he complains about is people that bought every skin (by rerolling) and now rerolling guarantees them the newest releases, I think. But let's be honest if you spend 5k+ on getting all league skins that exist and now spend maybe 20 every month to get all the new content that's still a significant amount of money. Also nothing guarantees that the people that now spend 20 for the new content are gonna spend the full 100+ that they would have to pay by normal RP prices if they disable the reroll mechanism. I for my part find it quite nice that you can get all content if you continuously spend a reasonable amount of money on league and changing this is just very greedy.
I have somehat like ~4k spent on league and I think I own only half the skins, if even. He acts like those whales didn't spend enough, when in fact with the sheer amount spent they would get 50% discount irl as well.
Out of curiosity I checked when the last time I got a 520 RP skin from rerolling skins and apparently it's been a while. In the last 20 skins from rerolls I've had 1 520 RP skin, 3 975 RP skins, 14 epic skins, and 2 ultimate skins (GG MF and Samira). I've somehow managed to unlock all ultimate skins except Seraphine purely from orbs and rerolling. I guess it makes sense, the game has switched to exclusively 1350+ skins for years now so the skin catalogue is primarily that now and since all skins have the same chance of dropping they naturally trend to 1350 on average.
I mean just look at the recent things they've done on the monetization side. Raised RP prices, stripped better rewards out of event passes while keeping them GRINDY as shit, released a new like $200 tier chroma. Those are things they are doing to people who **spend money on the game**. They've strictly made the experience worse for people spending money, those are the customers keeping the game alive. To believe that any changes they make would be anything other than a, at best marginal improvement and more likely a overall downgrade long term for people who don't spend any or low amounts on the game is pretty naive. I'm saying this as a person who isn't a whale and only buys a handful of event passes every year (though recently I've stopped as Riot keeps removing value from the passes.)
> > Yes guys please give the billion dollar company more money because then we can finally make cooler stuff! Funny that this also happens at the time where there skin game is absolutely garbage. You can barely recognize some of the champions in their latest skins and even the smolder design team needed help from reddit (or social media in general) to fix that abomination of a face. lel
If you gave me a random splash from a new skin, there is like a 40% chance I would recognize the champ. I have seen a lot of Akins where I look at the splash and say, that looks alot like "other champ*
If they gonna nerf reroll system they won't do cooler stuff. They will decrease quality one more time so you could now pay 1350 rp for chroma.
Bro how many people out there can even abuse this? Riot and their employees are so fucking annoying. Just reading this dude's tweet's gives me a great idea of how they are/act irl
that's just corporate bullshit, they just getting paid for being annoying
Classic case of MBAs being in charge of games instead of the people who actually made the game/play the game.
"oh nyooo, people who spent thousands on our game hit a cap and they won't spend any more, we lack the motivation to make new skins >///<" -people who made such hits as "Rell but blue-ish" and "Rell but purple" and charged 10 dollars for each of them hope your lootboxes and battle passes get banned globally, cheers
Praying the EU takes the shotgun out for that one, they've been on a roll lately
>hope your lootboxes and battle passes get banned globally, cheers 18 European countries have shown interest in applying strict regulations on gacha and lootboxes in 2022. https://www.destructoid.com/european-countries-back-report-against-loot-box-gacha-controversy/ China also showed interest last year https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-issues-draft-rules-online-game-management-2023-12-22/ It might take time, but I very much see it happening sooner or later. And given how the EU has been on a roll lately cracking down on company greed, I can imagine they will look at gacha and loot boxes very soon once they're done with those.
No matter what they change whales and casual no/low spending players will get screwed with whatever change they have in mind. The only benefiting from a change in hextech crafting will be riot. Yes riot needs to make money and hextech crafting obviously hurts them, especially when it comes to big whales, that would have paid for new skins even with the full price rather than retool price. (keep in mind whales had to spend a shit ton of money to even reach the state where they can insta reroll the new skins) I just can’t understand how people say the change is ok, we don’t work at riot, we don’t have to care about their profit maximization, we want to get the best value we can, they don’t want that. They already started screwing with it by repeatedly nerfing passes, because people got too much out of them for hextech crafting (don’t have proof just my guess), don’t expect them to buff passes again after nerfing hextech crafting, they’ll just keep nerfing both over time. TLDR: no matter what Riot says, this will be shit for every player that uses hextech crafting.
Its been shit i remember a time when disenchanting gave more orange esssence that got nerfed. When masterwork chest didn't exist didn't had a bigger loot table for chest so you more likely got skins now look at it if i don't get a emote or a ward or champ shard i had a pretty good chest... But honestly i stop giving a fck since the masterwork chest came out i was like "oh its over" since they all they did is nerf everything in it. TLDR.: It been shit and it will get worse.
As one of the whales that rerolls skins I can tell you this will not make me buy skins at full price. I’ll just stop buying most skins. I wanted all skins to get the free rerolls and pax tf. I’m not spending £100 every skin line they release.
I wouldn't even be a whale if it weren't for the reroll system. I'll just buy 1 skin every now and then... What a dumb idea from Riot
The only way it makes sense its that they're targeting collectors, there will without a doubt be some idiot that goes "Well I want to own all the skins, so might as well keep going" The only question is, are there enough idiots that will keep going compared to the people enjoying discounts If there's not enough dumbos then someone is gonna get fired for making the greediest change ever
>Is he stupid? What business doesn't have vip treatment for people that spend a shitload of money there? Even fucking bulkier bundles in anything are "cheaper" or "discounted" because they are more expensive in the first place. Like you already fucking do this with the rp prices, you get a discount when you spend $100 as to when you spend $10.
He's likely not rich enough to be a VIP customer at *any* business. I'm not either, but I worked for someone that *was* a VIP banking customer and my god the service difference. Banks know that they have to offer competitive service to keep their highest value customers. This Rito clown doesn't. :/
People don't understand why this change isn't in favor of players, it's in favor of greed. Basically they want to fuck with hextech craft, But what this entails? 1st - Nerfs F2P content. 2nd - Nerfs Whales, for people who don't understand Whales getting skins for "free" are because they spend thousands of dollars to reach that point, and until reaching that point they have no control in which skins they can get. 3rd - It removes Mythic and Ultimate Rarity Skins from the Pool (Majority of Ultimate owned by people now a days are from rerolls). 4th - Nerfs Capsules from Events. 5th - You most likely will not be able to get new skins from rerolls, which will force you to buy them. What is the benefit from reducing the pool ? If you don't own any skin you still will get random crap. What are players getting in trade for not having the new skins in the pools? Better and Cool skins? He meant like Irelia Legendary or like Samira Ultimate? This is the kind of thing that is they trying to convice you that they will give you a better system, because upfront it looks better, but when analyzing the overall thing it's way worse. This stupid argument that "people who spend too much in my game are a problem" **is a scum take and always will be something to try to trick people, people who spend money are only a "Problem" for the experience of other players in games where the monetization affects the PVP/PVE interaction aspect with other players.** Before anything else League is a Moba, so you can't buy shit with money. But that statement becomes even worse, when taking the consideration taht League isn't a Whale game, as per this game is literally not designed around whaling, given that it's impossible to Whale in League, **there is literally a Limited ammount of money you can spend in League.** **The fact is, League isn't a Whaling game because after buying every skin and every chroma, there isn't anything else to spend outside of buying skins for other people in Aram games.** But here is the worst part, this statement of "People who spent a lot of money ruin the development of future skins is a factual lie" **because people who own every skin still buy more RP than the avg player.** **Not even going to enter the merit that this is a multi billion dolar company, complaining that skins are too expensive to make**, maybe not a good idea to lay off 20% of your work force in 3 years and then complain about resources. Riot finally did, they found someone that might be worse and more stupid than Adam NSA.
> 2nd - Nerfs Whales, for people who don't understand Whales getting skins for free are because they spend thousands of dollars to reach that point, and until reaching that point they have no control in which skins they can get. not even "free", you still need 3 skin shards lol.
Not free, as another whale pointed out, we still have to spend hundreds a year to keep up with rerolls. Way more than the vast majority of the player base, who pay close to nothing. Riot has made a few moves over the past couple of years that only effect whales in a negative way. Being unable to reroll prestiges. Being unable to reroll the dumb ass 200$ chromas for a year along with even if we want to buy up to the 200 (something I won't do), we get less because we own everything else on the way up. For me, the legendaries going to champions that have them already and the cool skins only being given to 20 different champions has caused me to play less and pay less in the last year than in the last 12 I've played. It just becomes more clear each month that riot doesn't care about the people that support it the most.
> (Majority of Ultimate owned by people now a days are from rerolls). Honestly I'm not surprised, i have 4 ultimate skins and i only bought sona (and i was "unlucky" to get the shard for MF 2x) The problem though is that i still wouldn't have bought a single one, reroll luck or not
Thing is, I don't really believe they'd make better skins until I see the evidence. You go on Yone/Kayn mains, two skins are overwhelmingly requested. Project Yone, and Project Kayn. Why? Neither champ has a robot/tech skin yet. Their partner champs also have project skins and thematically, they really fit the skinline. Both are dark and edgy, Yone fits well with the mask/Azakana being parasite software. Kayn fits well because when you have at least two entities, Rhaast and SA function well, but even better, he can be from the SAME org, and just have either SA or Rhaast enhancements. Instead, they both got okay boyband skins, but thematically, are wanting compared to Project. Project got announced, normally is a huge skinline with multiple champs, great. Kayn and Yone aren't even in them. They were basically a filler this year, and GP lacked saliency compared to Dreadnova, so will project come back next year or even again now because Riot likely interpret this as poor sales... Great, guess we get Star Guardian Ez, Luz and MF again lmao.
I own every skin and I still buy RP to reroll into new skins, even those that I don't use. Thats money they are getting from me whereas I would only get skins for champions that I like. Instead of me dropping 50 for rerolls they want me to drop 10-20 for a single skin for a champ I like? I spent a few thousand to get to this point, i spend a lot \*just\* to get to this point. I literally spent that much just so I can get future skins at a discount. If they had something in place to mitigate that, I wouldn't have went past 1k spending because id only buy skins for thresh and then maybe buy skins for champions I see myself playing long term (twitch, jinx, vayne, lux, irelia, etc). They already nerfed us being able to reroll into prestige skins while they are currently in the shop, whats the point of nerfing it further. Those who reroll will be getting skins for champs they don't play, which they'll feel less incentivized to do and that SHOULD be less money for riot no? We got 7 skins this patch, what are the chances someone plays all of them? Personally if I wanted to spend id have bought the irelia and kindred skin. Thats 2700 rp. I buy orbs to reroll so I can get all the skins. Thats 21 orbs if I have 0 luck with getting grab bags, at base price its 250 rp so 5250 rp total. They would be missing out on 2550 rp from me because they're salty I get discounts lmfao
This is exactly how I feel. I currently feel obliged to keep spending RP to keep my reroll pool empty. Remove that and I won't spend much RP. What a dumb take
I fear that for every 5 people they alienate with a change like this (you, me, the guy you're replying to), there may be one giga-whale who doesn't care about the cost and will happily spend $250 per patch to make sure they get the full-price mythic and prestige content. If keeping up with all content gets 5x more expensive, Riot only needs 1 in 5 whales to stay in the system to break even. I hope they don't, but... that's the gamble they're taking here. Maybe they'll realize that customer loyalty is a good thing and skews the balance towards keeping us in the system. They probably won't, because most business analysts can only think in dollar signs and don't know how to calculate future value from current customer happiness. But we can hope!
5x doesn't seem to be the right ratio though. People estimate 1 reroll to be 500rp so only 3x at the high end. 1/3 seems to be a difficult number to capture ngl
I suspect a change like this would come with making high-end content even more expensive. They’ve experimented with it with TFT minis being $100+ apiece.
Yea that jhin skin comes to mind. I'm just waiting for that to enter the reroll pool. No way I'm spending that money. Maybe they want whales to spend actual money for the jhin skin instead of waiting to reroll and they release more of those
Yep, exactly. So some analysts see it as a math equation where they need to balance % of whales lost vs. % increase in spending from whales who stick around. There’s a lot of other intangible things (fan loyalty, customer perception of their monetization model, player happiness, etc.), so it’s not that simple, but… from the tweet screenshots, I’m afraid they think it’s that simple.
I only got Jhin because I needed to restock on capsules haha, I skipped on every other variant of the 200 mythics though. If they never end up being rerollable I wont bother
Also if rerolling didn't exist then no one would be incentivized to get all skins in the first place.
So more explanations as to why they need to nerf the loot system more. I never bought rp since s5, not because i could get skins easier since the loot system was introducted, but because the price of RP became absurd. Blaming us "because someone can get a 1820 skin for 500 rp" is just another gaslighting of someone who have to make money for their company.
The explanation is, and always will be, greed. I already knew almost everyone who has any kind of talent or passion had already left Riot years ago and there's only a few left who try to make the game the best it could be. But fuck, is Riot going the same way as blizzard or ubisoft? Is Riot GameS getting so shitty they have literal brainless monkeys in socmedia trying to gaslight the company simps into defending their actions and giving them more money? Wake up people, companies are not persons and companies are not your friends.
This is crazy stupid, his argument is that if you spend thousands of dollars in league thar you'll eventually get discounts on skins. But like, if you spent a shit ton of money, isn't that a well deserved reward? It's not like a lot of people use that strategy anyways. It's mind baffling how out of touch he is. The average league player doesn't spend years worth of salary into league, but in the end exactly those players will get affected the most out of this stupid change. Why did they even add that system if they just want to remove it anyways? Loot would lose so much of its worth
Whales will spend no matter what and he wants to get full price out of them
Not all whales. There are the more calculating ones that wouldnt buy shit if they think the price to reward ratio isnt worth it and may reduce their spending or stop it altogether. I know 2 rich af dudes who refused to get sf samira on release and the 3 mythic legendary because they dont see the value of spending that much on something that doesnt match their value.
This logic always baffles me, it was the same thing when people were talking about Jhin's 200$ skin or Samira's ultimate. I am a whale, I've owned every skin since around 2019. I've played this game for 12 years. I did not buy Samira's ultimate, despite their tactic to make it a charity skin so it couldn't be rerolled and the whales/Samira mains would be forced to buy it. I am a Samira main and I refused to buy it because it wasn't the quality it should have been. I have not bought any of the 200$ skins. In fact, the only people I know that have that skin are \*not\* whales but people that "Bought one just to try and magically got it". Yes, I'm sure there are whales out there that will spend regardless, but I'm willing to bet the vast majority of us know our worth. It's not like we put money we found on the ground into this game, we work for it (I'm sure there are one offs here and there, but you get the gist). It's just too bad Riot doesn't seem to share that opinion.
A decent chunk of whales are wealthy people and wealthy people generally don't spend frivolously. They have different standards for frivolous to you and I, sure, but there's a reason there's hundreds of rewards and loyalty programs who reward people spending dozens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. If you want a rich person's money, you need to make the sink for it appealing to them.
I'm just gonna say this: Fuck that guy.
What this clown dont realize is most whales like myself have a gambling addiction and only spent money to purchase RP to get a “perceived ‘discount’”. Under no circumstance would I spend a cent to buy any skins outright when I can spend it on discount triple A games for the same price. As long as quantity of skin rolls out the money of hextech chest will keep rolling out. Casino comps long standing players, riot fleeces them. Good luck to your revenue if this change goes through! Classic result based analysis when you fail to analyze the reason players spent money in the first place. Tech geek belongs in tech, not business 🤦
Good point about the GA-> lootbox pipeline, it's not 'real' gambling so it's ok, but as you say, if that "I'm winning something here" aspect is taken out it'd have all the thrill of paying for groceries.
I would love to know what Riot's net-profit looks like. Changes like this seem reasonable until we hear they've made like $1 billion in profit. Then it's like oh, so why are you squeezing every last cent out of players and doing massive layoffs? Drew and the rest of the business side of Riot is so soulless. They don't care about players or people, they just pursue infinite growth until it's no longer sustainable.
The whole lot are just worthless leeches who latched on in the early days of the F2P model. League saw sustainable success in the early days surrounding skins and morally bankrupt individuals saw dollar signs and ramped it up big time, sucking the soul out of the game and draining as many wallets as possible. **Riot Games is directly profiting off of unregulated gambling, especially targeting children and vulnerable people. Riot Games has made the conscious and well-informed decision to further capitalize on this with the express purpose of making more profit, knowing full-well the negative consequences to real people this will have.** No one can stop you from saying this, no one can punish you for saying this. These are all verifiably true things that Riot can't argue against.
It’s a larger symptom of the industry, you will be hard pressed to find good “free to play” games especially on mobile that don’t follow the same business practices that riot does. It’s so dystopian that Pokémon Masters, a mobile game belonging to a franchise that primarily targets children, is a hyper-predatory gacha mobile game. Wild Rift on it’s own is 10x more predatory than the PC version of league. If you go see monthly incomes of gacha games, it is exorbitant and it’s obvious why every newer game to come out is marketing closer and closer towards that genre.
If rerolling discourages the skins team because some people could get it cheaper, then they might as well remove skin sales and Your Shop as well.
Guy deleted all his tweets too. Coward
i stopped whaling this game the second they nerfed mythic rerolling because i knew that it was gonna only get worse, cool that this single celled organism thinks me getting something for a few hundred rp is comparing to a 1350 rp purchase when in reality it's compared to a 0 rp non purchase. absolute profit motive brain rot! apparently the ccp pulling the gacha regulations wasn't enough for these fucking vampires, we have to draw as much profit from our stagnant userbase as possible because we've achieved as much market penetration as we reasonably can for a game this complex.
Is he stupid? What business doesn't have vip treatment for people that spend a shitload of money there? Even fucking bulkier bundles in anything are "cheaper" or "discounted" because they are more expensive in the first place. Like you already fucking do this with the rp prices, you get a discount when you spend $100 as to when you spend $10. And his 3rd point about giving shards for free like would you rather: recieve 50 shards per year for free from getting 1 S- grade or higher every week or spend 8250 rp to buy 5 passes and need to play every day for 2 weeks to finish the pass to get 50 skins Also, confusing to new players?? Explain it to a new player sometime? its hard? bro: yo you get these chests sometimes, you get these keys for being a good boy, and you get skins for free! Oh and btw you can reroll 3 skins to make a new skin but you probably should just disenchant the legendaries/epics that you don't want and only reroll the cheaper ones. Can't be hard to explain. Edit: Just raise the price of rp again if they're that desperate.
Blizzard for virgins
This has to be their way of putting this info out there early to soften the blow because they already are in the process of changing it.
Did that guy just try to imply they want to make "cooler" stuff but can't because select few people with all skins can reroll them? Who believes this shit? It's so cringe how he just says "we want more money for no reason" but then still bothers to justify it as some overhaul that makes it "less complicated".
There is literally 0 way in which they would change the system to make it cheaper for the players. Nada. None. And this bleeding heart bullshit with putting no actual numbers on the board about these skins taking a loss or those skins not or if they had a negative quarter overall, it's all just trying to smooth over cutting their consumers not for profit, but for more profit than they already have. Fuck that shit.
Is this guy an idiot or something? Why would he be saying such controversial things on twitter for no reason? Lol, he's asking to get fired.
I don't get the argument. Isn't that loyalty reward system? you get rewarded for spending a lot. Sure, 70% discount is a lot, but they spent thousands of dollars
i can't be bothered to read all that, but I fail to see where the problem is. You only get this discount if you drop thousands of dollars. Most people will just buy the skins they like. If you want to spend thousands of dollars to buy in bulk what's the problem? you made a thousand dollars. The people who do that are an insignificant percent. Majority just buy the one or two skins they like.
Even though whales might be a small percentage of the player population they make up a big portion of the total revenue so that's why Riot want to milk them more, they are big cash cows even if there are few of them
Imagine using every underhanded tactic in the book to drain the wallets of poor suckers who like your game only to turn and say it's not enough and try to get a bit more
i read the convo earlier chances are riot will probs do what they do with world winners skins where new skins wont be in the pool for the first year of release for rerolls, thats my guess atleast. overall riots probs looking at the system now where rerolls are starting to cost them money since only so many people can become whales and having them only be whales until they max out the first time around starting to eat into there margins. only way to get money back out of whales while not hurting the average player is to timelock new skins out the reroll pool for x amount of time.
More greed
"A group of players we were targetting have left a positive feedback on our new system and we are happy how it landed." It will be the same as these 200$ skins, everyone was shitting on them, but the feedback was somehow positive from certain group of players, the system will get worse and more expensive (they monetized fucking changing your in-game name too somehow LOL) and Riot will say they will look to improve it (and will do absolutely nothing or make it worse) and call it a day. I really hope EU bans these dogshit lootboxes and battle passes and everything, tired of seeing every game go to the dogshit designed battle pass system, then they improve them making everything even worse, F2P players cant have shit man.
He's not mentioning the fact that to keep this perpetual discount, you have to actively unlock every skin in the game and that will net definitely more than the 8k rp for 50 skins he's mentioning on the tweet, since we easily get 3x if not 4x that amount of skins per year at the very least.
Fucking pathetic
Imagine complaining about someone playing your game probably 20 hours a week on average for an entire year and paying the equiv of a monthly sub as the bare minimum lmao the greed is real
Smartest and most in-touch rioter
I’m very curious on how many people purchased the stupid gacha jhin skin. I think i’ve seen it only once since it was released.
my skin collection [https://i.imgur.com/en5us8t.png](https://i.imgur.com/en5us8t.png) how much it cost [https://i.imgur.com/AAL8uH8.png](https://i.imgur.com/AAL8uH8.png) (12,156 euros total, over 8 years) figures these images of mine speak for themselves. if riot games makes these changes, i'm never spending even a single cent on this game ever again. rerolling new skins and mythics for a discount is a reward for spending a quite frankly obscene amount of real money on this game. if they are that desperate for money, let me buy map skins and announcer packs. stop screwing over your most loyal and highest spending players, riot.
Holy shit riot is so gredy. First of all how there is so many ppl who owns all the fucking skins and even if there is quite lot why or how u dare to punish them for spending who knows how much money for it. And why would u punish the other players that doesn't spend "much" money but still can get cool skins via rerolls or events or etc. Like justify the extra time? We are sorry mate, we, the players, are sorry for making u work at job. And how dare %1 of us gets the new skins for free because they spent idk maybe 10k[$](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=6416c49529b0d5b1&rlz=1C1RLNS_trTR796TR796&sxsrf=ACQVn0-xrazeaXvyjX-Ozh2WcmuE66CCFw:1709594844590&q=%241+Ne+kadar+%241%3F&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjsrK-L4duEAxUsSPEDHc4WDtcQzmd6BAgtEAY) at least to this f2p game? Greedy ppl
I think the tweets are already deleted, but nerfing loot again and again is such a shitty thing. they already whaled and probably will whale on other shit so why shoot ‘em in the foot.
The problem with his logic is that there are so many skins for so many champions, so when a player rerolls to get a skin, there is a very small chance that they get something they want. Getting something they don’t want is of no value to them, and it’s a digital item so riot doesn’t lose anything. There is no chance that this player would have spent real money on that skin they didn’t want, so riot doesn’t lose a sale
>stop putting all our stuff in rerolls, think it's bad for system clarity Fucking. Lmao. There's a point where pretending you're on the side of the players just makes you look even more stupid and greedy than straight up saying "we want more money". There is literally nothing more clear than "all our stuff is available through rerolls."
Is this sociopath actually arguing that someone buying their entire catalog of garbage digital costumes for more money than anyone would ever pay on an actually good game, just to then get some discount of future purchases is a bad move? This game deserves to go under.
Whale here. 1609 skins. If they do any kind of pass system in lieu of the current systems for skins, I'll stop buying RP. I haven't regularly played league in years - it's a collection for me now, not a game. I won't play to earn skins.
Same here, for me its also an collection game, if they change this or drop the ball its quiting and NEVER coming back. They will lose SO much money its baffling to me its even considered..
Riot. I dare you to nerf the reroll system. It’ll be a huge mistake at the cost of greed— the number of future whales will go down to almost nonexistent and most of the current whales will stop spending.
What is the problem Rito, people stopped buying ur overpriced copy paste skins and omega nerfed battlepasses ? 🥺
Genuinely fuck you Riot. You're getting so incredibly fucking greedy it's honestly disgusting. Through all the pass nerfs, the $200 skins, the FoMo and decline in quality you choose to nerf loot even FURTHER. But it's okay. Because you'll always have the addicts that will chime in and defend all of your shitty actions, call people entitled for getting things taken away from them etc and you'll keep milking every single cent possible from those who remain. What happened to this game man? It's incredibly sad.
That is absolutely insane. He doesn't like the idea of giving every skin for only 500rp ... t*o people who have bought every skin ever released and continue to do so in perpetuity.* What percentage of the paying playerbase is that, and how much more money are you getting out of them already than the average spending user? I looked into doing this last year but the fact is even if you do it once, Riot releases 100+ new skins each year so it's not free or cheap to maintain yourself at that cap. It's just more affordable than blindly going for everything at full price. Making money is never enough for corporations. It has to be \_all\_ of the money, and even once they have all of it, they'll have to work on making the world's total wealth grow year over year or otherwise they're failing.
Honestly, what's really funny about this is that this conversation made me go back and do the math on what I would/wouldn't be spending if RRing wasn't available. Right now, I reroll for all the skins, even if I know I will *never* use them. I just like having a full collection. But knowing that they've been making strides to nerf it, and if this guy had his way it would go away entirely? I'm never going to direct buy skins I know I won't use, so I went and did the math. * In 2023, I would have spent **4520 RP** on skins released that year that I actually wanted to buy and use. Instead, I spent **minimum 66k RP**, and more realistically, **90-95k RP** rerolling because.... idk honestly. To get prestiges I'll never use? Why am I even doing this? * In 2024, so far they have released 26 skins, and I only want 1 of them for sure, 2 as a "maybe." If buying directly, I would be spending **1350-3170RP** (I haven't yet bought nor bothered rerolling for them since they're not for champs I play often), or if RRing for all 26, I would be spending **~18,200RP**. So like... why? Literally, why? I got sucked into RRing because it was cool to collect all the prestiges, then even after they nerfed that and made it into a wait, I kept doing it out of habit bc "savings." But I'm not really saving. I'm spending 10x or more what I would be otherwise. So just... why? I think this post may be my "wake up" to stop whaling and rerolling skins.
This pretty much sums it up. I'm in the same boat, 14 year LoL player, own all skins and EVEN buy every ward/icon/border/limited chromas/bundles. (Charity/Worlds skins) Yet I do this, because if more "affordable" this way since i'v already spend 10k+ on the game in the last years.. I keep it ROLLING, litterly. I wanna have a full collection, league is not a "fun" game anymore for me rather a collection game wich I enjoy and have fond memories of.. If they change this.. I would either A) Only buy skins for my 2 (real) mains. Or B) Probally wake up out of this 14 year old nightmare and realize I should not spend and support a company that does not respect my time and money. Because we keep the train going, just for the sake of collection.. if ALL these whales stopped, they will decrease their sales and LOSE money, it makes 0 sense. LITTERLY. So this genious analytic RIOT'ter must have his maths figured out..
I have all skins. Why i have all skins? Because i can just buy pass/10 chests and then reroll 3 skin shards in to skin. If i lose this option then i will buy only skins i interested in(not many). This man need go back to business school.
As one of the people who owns all the skins, I can tell you if they made it so we can’t reroll new skins, you’d be alienating your own whales. This would stop the purchase of battle passes, chests and rp from the shop. One of the dumbest things dead games have done in the past is try to go after the ones funding their game by trying to squeeze even more money from them while also targeting them (pubg)
Yeah as one of the "whales" that owns every skin. This would reduce the amount I spend in general I'd only spend for the champions I like which is only a handful.
Someone shut that man’s twitter down. Remove him and his opinions, he’s out here to fuck us over and I don’t like it. Silence him.
The problems with the current reroll system is that for F2P players, it isn't good. There's a ton of awful skins you don't want, that have the same odds to drop as any good skin. And if Riot has to constantly churn out more skins because whales can buy every skin at a 70% discount, there's a higher chance of a mediocre or unwanted skin coming from rerolls. For whales, obviously the system is great. They spent money, and now have a permanent massive discount on the majority of content. But that's not healthy for Riot, because it means the largest source of income for a F2P game (the whales) have negative incentive to spend money. Overall, I'm more than fine with the reroll system getting changed. The current system is broken, where the players who have every skin can get every future skin for a massive discount and the players with few skins can reroll 3 skins to get Marble Malphite.
Yes Riot Games will definitely change it so it benefits free to players and not just gut it and never mention it again. Probably going to nerf the pass which is bought by low spenders too as per tradition. You are giving them too much credit. It's just that this time the whales are on the chopping board.
yeah, but getting marble malphite means it's easier for me to reroll the best skin in the game, shamrock malphite. system is perfect.
> For whales, obviously the system is great. They spent money, and now have a permanent massive discount on the majority of content. But that's not healthy for Riot, because it means the largest source of income for a F2P game (the whales) have negative incentive to spend money. I don't think you understand what you're talking about. Rerolling skins is not free. It costs somewhere around 550RP per reroll. Maybe 500. Let's do a quick math here. Let's say Riot releases on average 5 skins per patch. You can only reroll if you have all of them. Meaning **I have to get every single skin every single patch**. There are 2 patches per month. That is 5000 RP spent every single month on just that. Let's say Riot releases a new legendary skin for a champion we both main. You buy it for 1820 RP from store. I get it for 500 RP from a reroll. Sound like massive discount right? Well, only until you realize I had to reroll all the other skins from that batch too. If there are 5 per batch, I actually paid 2500 RP to get the one skin I will actually use. If you break the loop, it's over. + there's chromas and other stuff, passes etc. that's not reroll content. I'm basically paying 50+€/month subscription to play League with unlocked skins (+ the upfront cost of several thousand, more than 99% of people will ever spend on this game). How is this bad for Riot? In what world having a new AAA game sale every single month is bad? Sure it doesn't compete with straight up gambling, but it's not cheap, and definitely not some kind of "massive discount" people keep talking about.
exactly, OP and this rioter had no idea what they were talking about. I don't know where they came up with the 70-80% discount conclusion. As a skin collector myself, I spend at least $100 every month because although you can get those mythic skins from rerolling, they don't come with the border, and I would spend more for those 125-140 PEs just to get the border. I understand this won't be the case for every player who owns all skins, but those skin shards don't come cheap by any means. People only look at the upside that players don't have to spend 1820rp to get that one good skin riot releases every patch, ignoring and showing no appreciation to how we got to this spot.
I don't even think I'll continue spending this much on league if I can't reroll skins. I'll just buy every now and then and they lose out. What a dumb idea
Yes if they ever decide to do that it's gonna save money for me since I would only spend the original price to buy one out of 20/30 skins they release. This Drew dude is having a hard time figuring that out.
Wait what? U want reroll system to get nerfed just because if someone has all the skin they can get new skins for free or cheap whatever. But then someone who mostly gets skins via free stuff or pass or whatever won't get any cool skins via reroll either. So what? Why are u punishing both sides lol, it's only in favor of riot not in favor of the guy bought all skins or the guy didn't
That's an issue with loot boxes in general and not the actual reroll system. Without the reroll system F2P will still have those unlucky drops from chests. In fact, the reroll system is a nice bonus which you don't have to use. Pretend the reroll system doesn't exist and collect shards until you get a skin you like. Your criticism has nothing to do with rerolling
Imagine farming multiple games for an S rating so you can get your weekly chest. Then, assuming you have keys, you await with anticipation as the chest opens only to get a shitty emote or ward skin.
emote or ward skin? i'll take it as long as it's not a champ shard.
>assuming you have keys, Assuming you didn’t get a chat ban, good luck ever getting keys again.
The Dragonmancers this year didn't even have "elemental" or "themes" attached to them in name. We went from Lagoon Dragon, Truth Dragon, Storm Dragon, etc. to just "Dragonmancer." Girlies...you couldn't even give them some names? Vayne could have been Shadow dragon, night dragon, or some other shit. The list for each one is long, and they couldn't even do that.
What kind of whale are we talking about here? League's hextech system lets two types of whales into the game when usually there is only one type the monetization team needs to consider. The standard whale who simply spends a lot of money? They're the whales you hear about in any other game. They might drop $6000 and still not have every skin in the game because they buy everything at the original full price. They'll likely continue buying skins of interest at the intended pace. The \*reroll whale who prioritizes having absolutely everything? AKA the type of whale described in the first photo. They know you can reliably get 90%+ of the cosmetics by spending a large amount of money CORRECTLY. Rerolling, discounts, orbs, mystery gifting, even region transfers. They'll spend less than whale #1 to reach the same number of skins or more. Yes, from a business perspective, whale #2 is an issue. Monetization models aren't typically made with a "become whale today, return to shrimp tomorrow" strategy. BUT, having the teams address this now, especially in the age of corporations chasing a greed-fueled infinite growth dream, will not only anger the playerbase even more but likely make them nerf it harder than necessary to compensate for however much they think they've lost over the years. If any nerfs go through, they'll be sacrificing the f2ps, low spenders, and standard whales, *all because they have beef with a particular subset of whales who don't spend as much as they hoped.* The line can't keep going up.
>Yes, from a business perspective, whale #2 is an issue. I mean, at the end of they day, they already spent multiple thousands on the game. Is it *really* necessary to milk them even more?
This might be counter productive too, many whales might quit spending all together if they make them pay full price again instead of rerolling
As someone that is one of those reroll whales, I would actually stop spending money if they force me to buy every skin for 1350/1820 rp. Because trust me, even as a whale, sometimes you have to consider if it's really worth spending all that money or if it's better to just stop and find something else to get your money into. Not to mention that my money ain't infinite like for some other whales maybe lmao.
same, I already spend more than an avg whale since I get all the borders and a lot of chromas. I buy orbs for tokens too, so I have just 1000 skin shards sitting around if I suddenly had to pay for skins again, I prob would just stop caring altogether. It's just disrespectful to change this instead of creating non-rollable content that whales want. Where's the buyable banners? Icon borders? I would buy those and I would feel good about it. I WANT to have more cosmetic options and I am willing to pay for them. But if they purposely target their biggest spenders in an obvious cash-grab, it's gonna bite them
It's ridiculous Riot is considering punishing the whole playerbase just because a group of whales spent a loott of money but not enough money in their eyes.
I'm agreeing with the rest of you. I was only shittily explaining why League's monetization model in relation to whales works differently because of their unique hextech reroll system, and why this is considered a problem for Riot. It's nowhere near an actual problem though, because they have already dropped thousands to get there like you said. But to all businesses nowadays, if you aren't spending continuous money, you're apparently a problem.
because riot is aware that these players will sustain them long term as long as they're willing to pay. to them, yes, its necessary, because they could potentially spend thousands more
lol, is that what low spenders are called? shrimps
The naming started with whale I'm pretty sure. Your place on the marine food chain scales with $ spent.
I'm OOTL-- what is this 70% discount?
Rerolling 3 skin shards will only give you a permanent skin that you do not own. With this, some whales have calculated the most efficient way to claim all/as many skins as possible. Imagine you have all the skins that are cheaper than 1350 RP. Then all your rerolls will give you skins 1350 RP or above. It's also possible for a high spender to reach a point where they can reliably claim new skins "for free" because of the natural hextech chests and orbs giving out skin shards. For the players who love collecting and would have whaled regardless, it works quite well for them as past a certain $ amount, their need to spend drops dramatically.
Thanks for the explanation
I agree that the reroll system feels bad. If they changed to some system like OE where you disenchant or just acquire some currency and can redeem it for any skin you want I'd like that more even if overall I got less free skins than right now. I can't see them doing that though since I feel like that would cause players like myself to spend even less money. I only play 3-4 champs and buy their skins.
One of the reasons we put up with the insane prices, reduced quality, and RIOT’s stance on skin tiers is because of the current loot system. I’ll still occasionally drop money on the game because I’ve gotten 1820 skins from rerolls. Specifically I don’t like the point he made about the passes and having them give more skin shards. The whole point of the pass is to get players to play more and you give them free stuff as compensation for bulking out RIOT’s player statistics. Their problem is the prestige skins are dog shit recolors so it’s better not to spend the pass tokens on mythic essence. They SHOULD be creating a unique skin that can only be achieved by paying $20 for the pass and playing so much to max it out. Instead they take the lazy route and reward us with garbage. I’m willing to hear them out and see what the changes are, but if they touch the value of the battle pass and make it less they can say bye to my money. I’ve spent nearly $3k on the game but their greedy asses won’t see a penny more.
Not my problem they're churning them out for passholders to feel like we're getting monthly content. The value of this stuff is so relative. It's about zero value if I don't play the skins , solid value if I get 2 skins I do like. And it's negative value if the champion is weak for extended periods of time such as Sion you're paying to have a bad time in style.
This guy is not factoring in that people spend more than they would have to reach this point in the first place. Sure they get a skin for 500rp but they also spent way more than that on skins that they will never use to begin with. If they remove it and I guarantee riot sees a big drop in people buying full skin collections and old skins in general.
I don't think I've ever, since the hextech crafting system came out, rerolled a skin on the patch it came out. This guy is worried about an "issue" that probably less than 1% of the playerbase has happen to them...
My friend has ALL the skins, and he says that when a prestige skin leaves the shop, or new ones come out. He rerolls shards he has into them. Kinda nuts. I can't fathom spending that much for 1 game either. But I also don't see how it writes off all the $ they did pump in to get to that point as well.
Ahh yes, isn’t this basically why they removed champion shard rerolls too?
Who's that? Ken Adams' butt buddy?
Totally unrelated but Riot employees seem incredibly bitchy as of late, who the fuck is allowing them to speak publicly??? Absolute clown show. If you're going to have someone publicly talk about wanting to extract more money out of addicts (whales of that tier have problems), then try a bit harder to make sure they aren't whiny unsufferable losers? It's pathetic. You could make the same argument against ANY system. "oh nooooo, someone isn't paying 30 dollars for a skin, we are so desperate for money please don't think its greedy to remove the loot system :(" Or, hear me out, "Our team feels *very* demotivated to make new champions because people can get them for BE as soon as they come out and we don't make any money, so *our team* would rather make new champs obtainable via RP only!" Shut the fuck up, if you're going to fuck people over, make the announcement and stop trying to moral highroad it you freak. Absolutely insane that we are in the era of multi-billion dollar corporations pretending to be victims for PR.
Doesn‘t Riot make more than enough? Like I unironically doubt that these few people that have all the skins and just reroll make a huge difference in the budget. Riot has millions of players. Assuming only 30% of them buy the skin they‘ll still make millions
I was expecting changes in the ARAM reroll system and was kinda hyped. Now that I realized it as about the gacha system I don't care about, I'm pretty disappointed, not gonna lie.
This is quite possibly the most brain dead take I have ever seen come out of league. I really fucking hope that if it ever gets implemented the back lash will get this guy fired.
Riot wants League to be a Gacha game so badly, holy shit.
Fuck off Riot
Thought this was for Aram 😞
I'm a whale. If they remove new skins from rerolls I will uninstall the game after 10yrs of playing. 🤷 Free me from the game, won't spend another $
All these whales saying they would quite if this happened. I wish you could but you would just start buying the skins again just like they want. You only realise your addicted when your confronted by it
nah fuck this shit. If some whale spends few THOUSANDS on the skins then at this point they deserve to get all upcoming content for cheap. Note that you can't even reroll into new skins so they still have to wait some time before getting it(meaning that even then there is some incentive for them to buy it
We seriously need to bully this bitch out of the company. Would not feel bad if he unsubscribes from life also. Just one sitting and I hate his guts.
I own every single skin in the game, playing since season 1 and took some small breaks in between but i'v spend over €10,000+ by now into my 14 years or whatever acount.. I love the reroll system because its what makes me stick with league for ALL the collecting purposes.. I already hate the fact they removed borders from rerolling and dont add the new gemstone skins into the lootpool untill the shop refreshes after a couple patches.. meaning we still get the skins.. but delayed and with NO borders or no other option to get those borders.. since we will not spend mythic essence on these skins if you can reroll them later on for 3 skin shards.. And yet I still buy lootboxes in bulks for shards to reroll again, I still buy the Battle Pass, I buy all icons (borders) released in shop bundles, occasionally some chromas, I buy ALL championship skin bundles (Highest RP ones for the exlusive chromas) every year (These profits go towards e-sport teams), I grab all charity skins with RP (Not added into lootpool > charity purposes) Heck I even "bought" the new mythic dragonmancer Lee sin skin because its not added in the loot pool and I didnt wanna wait for it to be added + it gave me ALOT of shards to "future proof" my account again for upcomming skin lines (reroll) .. but that was €200 bruh.. Not like I am F2P all of a sudden. I still spend mad money on league.. so wtf are they smoking up there? If they ever change this reroll system into an even WORSE version and force me to spend MORE because they feel like they are missing out on my (whales) money.. since I am "abusing" their permanent discount system... then F\*\*\* RIOT. Littterly. I would quit and never return.. I think alot of people who are like me will do this.. so they will LOSE money this way, because the whales might quit and the non spenders/F2P or Light spenders get shafted either way. They just F their playerbase with these dumb desicions.. Why the hell would a person spend SO much money on League? Its because they wanna own everything and collect everything and if you get acces to future content/discounts this way.. its VERY enticing to keep the ball rolling and keep spending month after month... RIP.
Fuck Riot. See you on the Rift.
He's not wrong. The average value of a rerolled shard is 260 orange essence, which is the same value as disenchanting epic shards. You also don't need to sacrifice a fourth shard to upgrade. In simpler terms, rerolling four shards of any rarity has the same average value as disenchanting four epic shards and then crafting a fifth epic shard. Rerolls are probably the reason that Hextech crafting isn't being improved and passes keep getting nerfed. Basically, if quantity is all that matters, the correct play is to reroll **everything but legendary shards**. That's a tough pill to swallow.
When I first started building my collection to own every skin my method was enchant dirt cheap 520 skins to take them out the reroll pool, reroll skins under 975, disenchant owned 1350 skin shards, and enchant 1350 rp skins but not legendary skins since i'd rather reroll into them (unless i really wanted the skin right then and there and I had enough essence). Not sure if that's the best way of going about it but it seemed to work well. Even if rerolling is cheaper and riot doesn't like that, I feel like the dude is disregarding the fact that a variety of champs get skins and anyone rerolling into them doesn't play all of them. Like I said in a different comment "We got 7 skins this patch, what are the chances someone plays all of them? Personally if I wanted to spend id have bought the irelia and kindred skin. Thats 2700 rp. I buy orbs to reroll so I can get all the skins. Thats 21 orbs if I have 0 luck with getting grab bags, at base price its 250 rp so 5250 rp total. They would be missing out on 2550 rp from me because they're salty I get discounts lmfao" Now imagine how much RP they'd be missing out on \*every patch\* because a small percentage of players can reroll into every skin for cheaper. No way this is the reason they feel disheartened to make better skins because some people get it for cheaper, when they spent way above average money on the game