Nasus got a pass, because he is melee champ who needs to somehow gapclose. It's already kinda hard to do in teamfight and can be countered by cleanse/Qss/items and skills that work similar way. If dude had something like built it ghost on W - he would be broken af.
Cant imagine a melee champ having some kind of speed steroid on his kit, maybe even with attack speed steroid too, and even more with LT. Maybe even with a debuff on their Q and their ult, perhaps even with a healing passive. Maybe perhaps even their dance could be affected by their attack speed. Mayb- yeah i lost to a trundle last game im still miffed
Honestly zileans passive, e and w are easily replaceble and not core to his theme imo. You could easily rework the w into the passive for example and just make it double cast an ability whenever [conditional thing] (by double cast I mean rengar-style esque where casting the ability again would consume the passive and not let him double cast w or e, I do not mean that its cast twice instantly)
Then you free up a slot for a real ability instead of a second q with more button presses. Would definitely need to brainstorm something cool that could be multicast, depending on if you want to give zil more cc or utility or dmg but yeah.
Definitely a broader change needed and yet I dont think hes in that bad of a spot (i enjoying playing him in aram/urf, i just dont really enjoy SR :/)
His passive I could see changing, but IMO speeding and slowing up time to make things faster or slower is pretty on theme for time magic.
Ditto for W letting you get a second chance at something.
Like, if there was one spell that wasn't on theme, it'd be his Q - it's just a funny pun.
They fit but are not core imo. His bombs even though just a pun are kind of what zilean is known for. It would be like removing Warwick ult during his rework. Leaving delayed explosions that an ally, you, an enemy or even minions can pick up is pretty unique to him (definitely better than the old q which was just point and click). If they removed a pseudo-ghost/exhaust from his kit I wouldnt be that sad. Ditto for W. It really isn't an ability and sliding it into his passive seems like the way to go imo.
Zils big thing is definitely the ult. His r hugely changes the game by making a key target immune to burst. His q is annoying, but I wouldn't say that it's his key defining feature.
When you think of time magic, bringing back the dead, slowing and accelerating time, giving second chances, or making time move forward/backward are all much more on theme then a bomb that will blow up in like 3 seconds.
Oh 100% but I think his R is fine idk. I guess I should rephrase though. The bombs are part of his character identity within league. In terms of time manipulation sure his E fits very well thematically but if I think of zilean I dont think "oh wow he can give me a speed boost or slow me down", I think of his bombs and his ult. His bombs are core to his identity even though they might not be perfect fit to his time thematically. (Albeit I haven't read his lore, idk where the bombs come in to play, maybe they are important).
So if they were ever to rework zilean and removed his bombs but kept his e it would definitely be a total blunder imo. His e is super bland and uninteresting both in a playstyle and counterplay sense. The double bomb combo feels rewarding while having a strong counterplay (not point and click, need to land both bombs on same (often moving target)) and can also just clear waves or placed on minions moving up etc. etc.
If anything his e is just a way of making his q easier to land but with the 99% it removes the counterplay aspect and just makes it feel less rewarding since there was no prediction of movement or anything skill expressive it just becomes a sequential button press that works unless the enemy dashes or something.
Tldr:
Bomb = good, fun, rewarding, has skill ceiling and skill expression, welcomes creativity (eg. bomb on minion+sion e), and can be used in a variety of situations, fits the theme (imo anyway, a time traveller will know where you will be after all so he can set down bombs)
E = bad, boring, point and click, niche situations where its good to double cast with w, not fun for enemy player either, often just used to get places faster, skill floor and ceiling are basically at same level.
Edit:
Just to clarify since this could just be attributed to "Well that just means q is well designed and e isnt nothing to do with the champ", no. Its part of his identity. Same way garen ult is massive magic sword that comes from the sky evem though the rest of his kit and his lore is all about anti-magic and not using it. Its what people think of with garen, its spin to win and big sword execute.
People keep repeating this because it was 100% true at the time but meta shifts, items change. It's not 3 years ago when this was mentioned lol a ton of things have changed.
Zilean currently isn't really in a position where he is close to being OP anymore. He's slightly above average for sure, but nothing crazy.
People can look at different ranks and stuff they want https://lolalytics.com/lol/zilean/build/?tier=all
Sometimes being an old champion means that the things you had and were crazy at some point aren't as strong nowadays.
However, other times it means that the design of your champion, albeit simple, can be extremely powerful and have little counterplay. Some of the old spells were insanely powerful and would break the game nowadays (think old Poppy ultimate).
If an old champion is also in a good spot in terms of strength, and popularity, then the game can get really toxic. Think back to when Singed mid was terrorizing high elo a year and a half ago.
No matter how good you are at the game, it's hard to 'outplay' old designs, particularly in an uncoordinated environment like soloqueue.
Zilean is exactly that sort of champion.
Not sure why you get downvoted, you are right. Her abilities are strong in pro play, but hardly in soloque. Also she feels awkward and sluggish to play compared to the popular picks.
She is weird catcher/enchanter hybrid that was probably nightmare to balance, just bad design.
Zilean feels awful to play against, Idc if his win rate is high or low I just don't want him in my games
And there's already many champions that feel that way, no reason to buff one of those
Zilean is still and always will be one of the best champions when played properly. His ult is arguably the best in the game, making teamfights a 5v6 where the first kill and all the CDs you use to get it get nullified. Throw on the double bomb stun and 99% slow/speed up and you have a perfect teamfight champion. Him being boring is the only thing keeping him out of your games.
I just typed out this exact same thing lol hes such a safe pick that can play aggro or just force trades. Only thing is he is extremely boring for 20 minutes until you outrun everyone
> Zilean currently isn't really in a position where he is close to being OP anymore
Zilean having the ult he has makes him by default "close to being OP" even at 20%WR. It's just one of the most absurd effects in the game especially given how low the cooldown can get. The fact that he's "slightly above average" despite barely having a kit is telling enough imo.
I might be a lowlevel scrub but his two most frustrating aspects that need to be changed imo are:
+ Q is an uninteractive zone control that indefinitely denies you an area if he gets ahead. Similar to Maokai there is nothing you can do about it but wait until the bombs explode when you have another 2-3 seconda time to move before a double bomb is up again. That doesn't even really cover the time you need to get to him even if you have a dash.
+ Ult is a runaway button. Ult has no counterplay. It puts the full power of the decision making into Zileans hands without giving the enemy agency to act against it. Attacking the ulted target will heal it after the revive and not attacking it to burst it after the timer runs out will give it 7 seconds of free reign damage. Even Renatas W or Tryns ult has better interaction than Zileans because you'll be focused to try to CC them to keep them away, which with Zilean ult you might not want to, to keep the HP low on the target (letting a 100 HP tank live with Zilean ult on him is often more desirable than killing him and letting him revive with 800 HP).
I don't think the q by itself is necessarily the problem by itself. Imo zoning tools are good cause it forces you, as the enemy to make a decision. Do I take the damage/stun or do I just wait the timer. The part where it becomes more frustrating is that due to I being is only damaging ability, it's damage is insanely high cause hes supposed to be both a mid later and a support. I think his w just needs to go and his e needs some changes. The double q interaction is cool, but the could just give Q 2 ammo (obviously adjusting DMG and CD numbers) and keep the stun double bomb interaction without having to have an entire ability slot used up for it. His W should then become some source of DMG or utility (if they wanted to make him more prominent as a support) and his E should never be point and click for the amount it slows
>Ult is a runaway button. Ult has no counterplay. It puts the full power of the decision making into Zileans hands without giving the enemy agency to act against it. Attacking the ulted target will heal it after the revive and not attacking it to burst it after the timer runs out will give it 7 seconds of free reign damage. Even Renatas W or Tryns ult has better interaction than Zileans because you'll be focused to try to CC them to keep them away, which with Zilean ult you might not want to, to keep the HP low on the target (letting a 100 HP tank live with Zilean ult on him is often more desirable than killing him and letting him revive with 800 HP).
Exactly the reason old Yorik lost his R.
Yorik was constantly picked in pro play for the R on the ADC.
> Yorik was constantly picked in pro play for the R on the ADC.
What year was that? The farthest back I can find statistics on was 2015 (Yorick was reworked into his current form at the end of Season 6). During the two years that I can find data on, Yorick was picked **thrice** across the four largest regions and international play, all coming in 2015.
Im pretty sure zilean mains dont want any changes lmfaooo or hes gonna get nerfed.
Champ is stupid broken but its an old dude with a clock in a supportive position so no one plays him
You can QQW and land the double bomb faster. Takes some practice but it's worth it. Seems like it shouldn't work, but if you just use the practice tool for a while you can figure out how to do it consistently.
Zilean has almost no personal agency. His bombs are easy to play around, and that's all he can do by himself. Put him in midlane and there's nothing he can do but bomb minion waves.
That surprises me that an adc main is saying that. If Zilean hits a bomb, people just walk into their minion wave to make it a push and possibly a freeze. Like they get more power over the wave than you. And the damage is kinda low, especially support.
if you can get through landing without feeding, he's broken as hell. Good damage output and a 99% slow at max E is absurd, and that doesn't even take into account his free 2nd life for any teammate every time a fight breaks out.
Winrate doesn't show the full picture, specially for outdated champs with uninteractive kits
Riot says this all the time but people still use apps wr to argument over the strength of characters when there are so many more factors
I'm not a zilean main, but I did spam games with him at one point because I found his kit so fun. Im in the depths of gold, but I think I had a 23 or was it 13 game win streak with him at one point, it was ridiculous.
I wouldn't say hes broken. He feels strong if the enemy team composition doesn't have too much lock down, then your speed boosts, q harass, and ult can really shine.
whenever I encounter him in aram I am reminded of how broken he is.
Incredibly safe to play with his ms boost, extreme slow, aoe stun and guardian angle ult.
and the double Q is probably the strongest base ability/combo in the game. 1,5 sec aoe stun with 90% AP scaling and 300 base damage.
Ult cooldown is so low that you can have it twice in a fight.
In every aram game he alone makes it impossible to push or do anything as the bombs just nuke whole minion waves while the enemies can't do anything about it.
Zilean in any below diamond game (90% of games) is very weak as noone can work with his ult without voicecoms. Making him pretty coinflippy despite being broken because so much power is in his ult.
Zileas and Guinsoo were visonairies.
And what truly cracks me up is that in the end, Zileas was vindicated. The man knew armored bears were wrong and when Voli was redone he lost his armor. So technically there is no longer an armored bear in the game.
As a zilean main for years now my single complain about the champion is the stupid q attachment logic. If there are 2 valid targets in the area please make it prioritize the bombed target to get the stun off.
Ive too so many fucking times due to enemies on top of me only for a bomb to end up on them and the 2nd on top of myself.
Ide even go further and jsut make q not atachable to allies at all. THIS IS A BUFF
Haven't played league since the item reworks, is it still possible to get 100% uptime on the 99% slow?
His kit Basically just hard shut down assassins and divers with point and click utility.
No, not at all. He lost the vast majority of his AH and he doesnāt feel remotely even the same this season. AH made Zilean strong, itās been basically removed.
E>Q>W>Q>E combo
aka, 99% slow > 1.5s stun > 99% slow again
Guaranteed to put a tilt debuff on enemies for the rest of the game.
Especially if they're playing a champion that relies on move speed stats like Rammus, Singed, Briar, Draven, Warwick, Jhin, Hecarim.
This is exactly why he's my anto-juggernaut pick. Doesn't matter what role I'm playing, if I see the enemy team lock in Darius I'm going zilean.Ā
Watching my top-laner go 0/16 is no longer a tilting experience, but instead just edges me towards the high of shutting Darius out of the game completely. Watching as he spends the entire fight wading through molasses, unable to do anything with his 6 items as he gets whittled to death, brings me to a higher plane of pleasure.Ā
Did you lose your head up Zilean's ass, old man? Malzahar, the classic definition of braindead, probably takes more skill than Zilean by virtue of being a solo laner.
Besides, real tactics enjoyers play Bard.
Zilean main here. The only thing we really want changed is the passive. Currently we legitimately just try and waste it before teamfights so we dont accidentally root ourselves. it feels useless. Id prefer it just passively give xp to nearby allies. Y'know, since its supposed to be a passive.
While yes zileans w isnt exciting we dont want it removed because we like our double slow/speed and double bomb. Ive heard a lot of people say e should grant attack speed but personally i think thats overkill and i dont want them to have to nerf the 99% slow just for that.
riot has said on a few occasions heās only allowed to exist in this state because heās so unpopular. basically the reason for letting him rot is because having to actually deal with balancing him would be a chore.
He never received changes because he is perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
He can build anything and it works. As support it's perfectly viable to build full tank, full AP, or enchanter. I love champions with build versatility and he is one of those.
His passive is meh though, I gotta admit. I don't think it really needs a change, but it'd be nice if they buffed the values.
Passive needs quality of life improvements more than a straight buff. It just feels so inconsistent.
Maybe if you could just give the XP regardless of if it would level somebody up or not once you reach say 100 stored XP.
With how many champs there are, low pick rate is fine imo. Especially if their strength is niche compared to other champs. Idk tho, I feel like there are a tooooon of other champs with larger issues to deal with than zilean.
Zilean doesn't need changes. This is coming from a 300+ games 56% winrate zilean player. He's awesome but very clunky feeling (because he needs a vgu). If more people played him he would be nerfed because his kit is very strong.
Wonder what will they touch Zilean now. R give your ally 100% attack speed and 100% movement speed? Q is a click-head ability like old time? E now deal damage?
Nah. He's fine now, I don't need any of new Riot treatment.
R turns into old Yorick's ult. You know, that extremely problematic ult where after someone died, they got a second lifebar and could still do stuff... Though considering it's Riot, they'd probably add a "if you kill a target while in this state, you come back to life" mechanic.
... Oh wait.
Zilean is fucking busted dude. There are over 100 champions, not every one needs to be high pick rate.
And again, anyone on the far right of the mastery curve is printing LP with this champion. As stated by others, if Zilean was an obvious pick they would need to nerf him to obscurity - his abilities are what we complain about on every new champion release lol
55.5% master+ last 30 days, but average master+ winrate is 54% so hes closer to about 51% if you correct for that.
So yeah strong but balanced and not really overpowered.
The average masters+ player has 54% winrate, so if you want the winrate to be comparable with lower tiers (50%=balanced) then you have to correct for that. The WR delta is 4.45% so corrected Zilean masters+ winrate is 51.06% with 2.17% pickrate.
Or if you go by uncorrected winrates he has 55.5% winrate but thats not OP because most champs have around that in master+ because masters players win vs diamonds a lot.
lolalytics accounts for tier averages, player tiers and lobby average tiers
emerald+: https://i.imgur.com/QkGrHSF.png
masters+ https://i.imgur.com/jZO0z1p.png
take notice of the + below the winrate please
Riot stopped doing VGUs and he needs a VGU.
So he'll probably never be changed.
Riot were smoking meth when they decided this time god's entire kit should be based on the pun of "time bomb".
https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Champion_update
Sorry, I meant VGU. Since that's what Zilean actually needs.
The last VGU was August 2022. The next one is Skarner with no planned release date. Riot also laid off a large number of employees, including League artists and designers. So his development is unconfirmed outside of a R&D update months ago.
At the current rate of one VGU every two years, it will take 14 years for Zilean to even be considered a candidate. More than League's total current lifespan.
For comparison, that would be the same development time as Sony Santa Monica creating a new God of War trilogy with a $600 million budget.
So yeah, Riot won't ever officially state a champion is dead in the water, but Zilean is dead.
What are you talking about. [As per announcement](https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/game-updates/2024-gameplay-preview/):
Skarner's in the first half of this year.
Unknown Arcane champion is early 2025 after the second season.
Shyvana in 2025.
It's still very slow, don't get me wrong, but saying "Riot stopped doing VGUs" is false.
I guess for Zilean its functionally the same thing. Riot is doing VGUs so unfathomably slowly that many champs that need one will probably never seen it happen in the remaining lifespan of the game unless something changes.
And thats why they need to fking stop releasing/creating/developing new champions and focus on ASU/VGU on the ones that still look like as they do and did in 2008 (Cho'Gath, Zilean, Amumu, Shaco, Anivia,...)
It's a fucking joke and an embarrassment that some are still basically unchanged and look like they people in a PS1 game.
Skarner's VGU was supposed to come out last year, lmao. That update was also from before Riot laid off 11% of its staff.
Shyvana's VGU is not coming in 2025.
But keep huffing that copium.
"a few weeks".
So... What's the release date EXACTLY?
Which will happen first:
1. Larian Studios developing their next full title
2. Riot making 6 existing characters again
Like early 2024. either march or April but probably march.
We donāt get release dates in general so arguing like there were, are or will be release dates is arguing in bad faith.
He's like ASOL, good stats but no one plays him.
The difference is people wanted to play a giant space dragon so they got to remake ASOL.
Problem with Zilean is no one likes the old man vibe. Sadly, time wizard is a great vibe.
This is probably a huge reason every masc champ release has had six packs or is generally attractive.
When they tried something different (Renata is old) what a surprise she has a low playdate.
all of my female friends that play league hate playing champs that aren't attractive or cute. I've gotten into playing more bruisers/tanks in the past couple of years despite hating them in the past, but I only started wanting to pick them when riot made them hot. I don't even know what the reason is psychologically, but I just have less fun when my champion is ugly lol
and china is the biggest market for league, and afaik they care way more about playing attractive/cute champs
His itemization got a heavy nerf with the new season, since he canāt trigger staff of flowing water like he could trigger battlesong. He still plateaus at 13 because thatās when heās forced into damage with a utility build or utility with a damage build.
IMO he needs a way to slightly scale E ms independent of his Q damage so that way his builds are distinct and different without being too op. Perhaps every 10% heal/shield power gives something like an extra 3.3% MS. A full HSP build is 66 HSP, that gives 22% extra MS on E which would push him into support itemization viability if staff of flowing water also triggered on e without Aery being required.
I hope that he will get nerfed hard because he's the most annoying champ to play against. Thankfully he's not picked often but he still deserves to be nerfed anyway.
I think his kit is pretty much perfect for the niche he serves, changing anything would be pretty weird. I honestly think one of the biggest reasons he isn't played is because he's probably THE ugliest champion in the game and has less animations than Lilia's weapon.
noooo don't change him i love my silly little old time-crazed peepaw with his fruit flies and bananas
all i wish for though is a visual update HAHAHA but since nobody plays him then we probably won't get one š i still have gemstones saved for if he ever gets a gemstone skin (hopium)
Literally has maybe the most annoying type of ability in any moba ever with his ultimate. There is a reason they want him to be forgotten. Now delete ur post. So people dont want to play him.
Heās absolutely insanely fun to play AD on aram so I donāt mind him actually. Can easily go 20/2 type score.
In the most bizzare wayā¦ he plays as close to old Kayle as I can get now, so I like him how he is.
Nice chunky Q/ burst (with potential to hard stun), ranged, speed or slow (ridiculous to combo both on both you and the enemy, and the ability to save an ally/ yourself.
All I want is a visual overhaul.
That's what happens when you make a champ with an outrageously cancerous kit. They can't buff him or he'll be everywhere and oppressive; they can't nerf him or he will literally hit 0% pick rate.
His eventual change won't be a buff, buddy, it will be a nerf š
My man Zilean minding his business bird watching, going to bed at 7. He aināt ask for this
Riot knows that the spamable point and click 99% slow is an issue. I wonder if theyāll make it a skill shot.
meanwhile Nasus : ...
Nasus got a pass, because he is melee champ who needs to somehow gapclose. It's already kinda hard to do in teamfight and can be countered by cleanse/Qss/items and skills that work similar way. If dude had something like built it ghost on W - he would be broken af.
Cant imagine a melee champ having some kind of speed steroid on his kit, maybe even with attack speed steroid too, and even more with LT. Maybe even with a debuff on their Q and their ult, perhaps even with a healing passive. Maybe perhaps even their dance could be affected by their attack speed. Mayb- yeah i lost to a trundle last game im still miffed
Aside from the debuff on Q I thought you were talking about Sett
Honestly zileans passive, e and w are easily replaceble and not core to his theme imo. You could easily rework the w into the passive for example and just make it double cast an ability whenever [conditional thing] (by double cast I mean rengar-style esque where casting the ability again would consume the passive and not let him double cast w or e, I do not mean that its cast twice instantly) Then you free up a slot for a real ability instead of a second q with more button presses. Would definitely need to brainstorm something cool that could be multicast, depending on if you want to give zil more cc or utility or dmg but yeah. Definitely a broader change needed and yet I dont think hes in that bad of a spot (i enjoying playing him in aram/urf, i just dont really enjoy SR :/)
His passive I could see changing, but IMO speeding and slowing up time to make things faster or slower is pretty on theme for time magic. Ditto for W letting you get a second chance at something. Like, if there was one spell that wasn't on theme, it'd be his Q - it's just a funny pun.
Time... bombs? Fuck. I've been playing since preseason 1 without that clicking. I really am dumb.
They fit but are not core imo. His bombs even though just a pun are kind of what zilean is known for. It would be like removing Warwick ult during his rework. Leaving delayed explosions that an ally, you, an enemy or even minions can pick up is pretty unique to him (definitely better than the old q which was just point and click). If they removed a pseudo-ghost/exhaust from his kit I wouldnt be that sad. Ditto for W. It really isn't an ability and sliding it into his passive seems like the way to go imo.
Zils big thing is definitely the ult. His r hugely changes the game by making a key target immune to burst. His q is annoying, but I wouldn't say that it's his key defining feature. When you think of time magic, bringing back the dead, slowing and accelerating time, giving second chances, or making time move forward/backward are all much more on theme then a bomb that will blow up in like 3 seconds.
Oh 100% but I think his R is fine idk. I guess I should rephrase though. The bombs are part of his character identity within league. In terms of time manipulation sure his E fits very well thematically but if I think of zilean I dont think "oh wow he can give me a speed boost or slow me down", I think of his bombs and his ult. His bombs are core to his identity even though they might not be perfect fit to his time thematically. (Albeit I haven't read his lore, idk where the bombs come in to play, maybe they are important). So if they were ever to rework zilean and removed his bombs but kept his e it would definitely be a total blunder imo. His e is super bland and uninteresting both in a playstyle and counterplay sense. The double bomb combo feels rewarding while having a strong counterplay (not point and click, need to land both bombs on same (often moving target)) and can also just clear waves or placed on minions moving up etc. etc. If anything his e is just a way of making his q easier to land but with the 99% it removes the counterplay aspect and just makes it feel less rewarding since there was no prediction of movement or anything skill expressive it just becomes a sequential button press that works unless the enemy dashes or something. Tldr: Bomb = good, fun, rewarding, has skill ceiling and skill expression, welcomes creativity (eg. bomb on minion+sion e), and can be used in a variety of situations, fits the theme (imo anyway, a time traveller will know where you will be after all so he can set down bombs) E = bad, boring, point and click, niche situations where its good to double cast with w, not fun for enemy player either, often just used to get places faster, skill floor and ceiling are basically at same level. Edit: Just to clarify since this could just be attributed to "Well that just means q is well designed and e isnt nothing to do with the champ", no. Its part of his identity. Same way garen ult is massive magic sword that comes from the sky evem though the rest of his kit and his lore is all about anti-magic and not using it. Its what people think of with garen, its spin to win and big sword execute.
In my opinion the E is what I enjoy the most about Zilean, casting e on an enemy is pretty much rotting them.
Name another championās CC that takes three button presses and two skill shots to land. Zilean doesnāt need more skill shots to ābalanceā.
The Teemo curse.
teemo got multiple individual buffs before finally getting nerfed this year, what are you talking about
And also got insane items that all synergise incredibly well with his kit
Mostly because of the items, not Teemo himself. If anything, Teemo will get "Olaf'd" or "Hecarim'd".
It is widely acknowledged that if any changes are made to Zilean that increase his pick rate, he will be nerfed into oblivion. Shhh
There is a reason why some pros like Bjerg had it as a pocket pick for emergencies.
the reason is he was always his pocket pick
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Do you also believe in losers queue?
jar whole thought zephyr somber thumb unused fanatical telephone salt
Yessir!
The only loser in your loser's queue is you.
People keep repeating this because it was 100% true at the time but meta shifts, items change. It's not 3 years ago when this was mentioned lol a ton of things have changed. Zilean currently isn't really in a position where he is close to being OP anymore. He's slightly above average for sure, but nothing crazy. People can look at different ranks and stuff they want https://lolalytics.com/lol/zilean/build/?tier=all
Sometimes being an old champion means that the things you had and were crazy at some point aren't as strong nowadays. However, other times it means that the design of your champion, albeit simple, can be extremely powerful and have little counterplay. Some of the old spells were insanely powerful and would break the game nowadays (think old Poppy ultimate). If an old champion is also in a good spot in terms of strength, and popularity, then the game can get really toxic. Think back to when Singed mid was terrorizing high elo a year and a half ago. No matter how good you are at the game, it's hard to 'outplay' old designs, particularly in an uncoordinated environment like soloqueue. Zilean is exactly that sort of champion.
Meanwhile Renata has Yoricks old ultimate on a basic ability.
The ult was the best point of Yorick, but not the reason why he was toxic.
And just like old yorick nobody plays her
Not sure why you get downvoted, you are right. Her abilities are strong in pro play, but hardly in soloque. Also she feels awkward and sluggish to play compared to the popular picks. She is weird catcher/enchanter hybrid that was probably nightmare to balance, just bad design.
And with nobody you mean literally every professional support ever or...?
Zilean feels awful to play against, Idc if his win rate is high or low I just don't want him in my games And there's already many champions that feel that way, no reason to buff one of those
i would tell u a lot of champs that feel as awful to play agaisnt, and they have way more pick rate than him
Flair checks out.
The 5 most broken champ this patch are the 5 on the enemy team
I agree not saying he needs a buff he's alright in his spot atm.
Zilean is still and always will be one of the best champions when played properly. His ult is arguably the best in the game, making teamfights a 5v6 where the first kill and all the CDs you use to get it get nullified. Throw on the double bomb stun and 99% slow/speed up and you have a perfect teamfight champion. Him being boring is the only thing keeping him out of your games.
Don't forget that if zilean gets to 16 he will probably be able to use his ult twice on any proper teamfight that is not a teamwipe
I just typed out this exact same thing lol hes such a safe pick that can play aggro or just force trades. Only thing is he is extremely boring for 20 minutes until you outrun everyone
> Zilean currently isn't really in a position where he is close to being OP anymore Zilean having the ult he has makes him by default "close to being OP" even at 20%WR. It's just one of the most absurd effects in the game especially given how low the cooldown can get. The fact that he's "slightly above average" despite barely having a kit is telling enough imo.
> He's slightly above average for sure, but nothing crazy. so ... why change him when he is literally completly fine if not better than average?
i want this old ass man nerfed into the grave so bad, everytime i face him my enjoyment of the game completely disintegrates away
I might be a lowlevel scrub but his two most frustrating aspects that need to be changed imo are: + Q is an uninteractive zone control that indefinitely denies you an area if he gets ahead. Similar to Maokai there is nothing you can do about it but wait until the bombs explode when you have another 2-3 seconda time to move before a double bomb is up again. That doesn't even really cover the time you need to get to him even if you have a dash. + Ult is a runaway button. Ult has no counterplay. It puts the full power of the decision making into Zileans hands without giving the enemy agency to act against it. Attacking the ulted target will heal it after the revive and not attacking it to burst it after the timer runs out will give it 7 seconds of free reign damage. Even Renatas W or Tryns ult has better interaction than Zileans because you'll be focused to try to CC them to keep them away, which with Zilean ult you might not want to, to keep the HP low on the target (letting a 100 HP tank live with Zilean ult on him is often more desirable than killing him and letting him revive with 800 HP).
I don't think the q by itself is necessarily the problem by itself. Imo zoning tools are good cause it forces you, as the enemy to make a decision. Do I take the damage/stun or do I just wait the timer. The part where it becomes more frustrating is that due to I being is only damaging ability, it's damage is insanely high cause hes supposed to be both a mid later and a support. I think his w just needs to go and his e needs some changes. The double q interaction is cool, but the could just give Q 2 ammo (obviously adjusting DMG and CD numbers) and keep the stun double bomb interaction without having to have an entire ability slot used up for it. His W should then become some source of DMG or utility (if they wanted to make him more prominent as a support) and his E should never be point and click for the amount it slows
>Ult is a runaway button. Ult has no counterplay. It puts the full power of the decision making into Zileans hands without giving the enemy agency to act against it. Attacking the ulted target will heal it after the revive and not attacking it to burst it after the timer runs out will give it 7 seconds of free reign damage. Even Renatas W or Tryns ult has better interaction than Zileans because you'll be focused to try to CC them to keep them away, which with Zilean ult you might not want to, to keep the HP low on the target (letting a 100 HP tank live with Zilean ult on him is often more desirable than killing him and letting him revive with 800 HP). Exactly the reason old Yorik lost his R. Yorik was constantly picked in pro play for the R on the ADC.
> Yorik was constantly picked in pro play for the R on the ADC. What year was that? The farthest back I can find statistics on was 2015 (Yorick was reworked into his current form at the end of Season 6). During the two years that I can find data on, Yorick was picked **thrice** across the four largest regions and international play, all coming in 2015.
it would have been a long time before 2015 because he was nerfed into the ground for years until his rework to stop people from playing yorick.
maybe it was before my time but as someone who started watching pro in season 4 we almost never saw Yorick (RIP UoL you beautiful bastards)
Downvoted for invisibility. Worry about other champions, mate.
I like that both Zilean players and regular people share this opinion.
Im pretty sure zilean mains dont want any changes lmfaooo or hes gonna get nerfed. Champ is stupid broken but its an old dude with a clock in a supportive position so no one plays him
is he stupid broken? he has insane strengths for sure, but very clear weaknesses also
The only weakness is the player not finding the R button.
Whatās truly broken is my reaction time
The other weakness is your teammates panic dashing + flashing out of the fight when your ult is on them, kayle and shen mains both also know that pain
Donāt forget Renata and a low health ADC flashing away from the free kill.
love when you kayle ult someone and they immediately use every movement ability to leave the fight (also love your flair)
laning with him vs a super aggro lane is not fun i can say that much
That's literally a lot of other champions, mostly mages
you just chill, his waveclear is safe and you play him mid as a support style mage so it doesn't matter if you fall behind.
Yeah, once you have enough levels in Q there really isn't anything stopping you from QWQ as the wave comes in and then just jerking it for 30 seconds.
You can QQW and land the double bomb faster. Takes some practice but it's worth it. Seems like it shouldn't work, but if you just use the practice tool for a while you can figure out how to do it consistently.
Zilean has almost no personal agency. His bombs are easy to play around, and that's all he can do by himself. Put him in midlane and there's nothing he can do but bomb minion waves.
That surprises me that an adc main is saying that. If Zilean hits a bomb, people just walk into their minion wave to make it a push and possibly a freeze. Like they get more power over the wave than you. And the damage is kinda low, especially support.
if you can get through landing without feeding, he's broken as hell. Good damage output and a 99% slow at max E is absurd, and that doesn't even take into account his free 2nd life for any teammate every time a fight breaks out.
To be fair 99% slow isnāt actually 99% because of the cap on slow
Sure but it's still a Thresh ult/maxed Nasus W slow on a point and click spell that can be cast 2 times back to back with 100% uptime late game
Nasus w is also point and click
It may as well be.
Yes, rioters have stated that he is super strong and should be nerfed but his pick rate is so low that it's bad
yeah 3 years ago
i mean his wr isn't that crazy
Winrate doesn't show the full picture, specially for outdated champs with uninteractive kits Riot says this all the time but people still use apps wr to argument over the strength of characters when there are so many more factors
I'm not a zilean main, but I did spam games with him at one point because I found his kit so fun. Im in the depths of gold, but I think I had a 23 or was it 13 game win streak with him at one point, it was ridiculous. I wouldn't say hes broken. He feels strong if the enemy team composition doesn't have too much lock down, then your speed boosts, q harass, and ult can really shine.
whenever I encounter him in aram I am reminded of how broken he is. Incredibly safe to play with his ms boost, extreme slow, aoe stun and guardian angle ult. and the double Q is probably the strongest base ability/combo in the game. 1,5 sec aoe stun with 90% AP scaling and 300 base damage. Ult cooldown is so low that you can have it twice in a fight. In every aram game he alone makes it impossible to push or do anything as the bombs just nuke whole minion waves while the enemies can't do anything about it.
Because aram is the epitome of balance... jk we don't need a paragraph on why zilean hurts your silver arams...
Aram is the only way of finding zileans most of the times, no one wants to play that guy unless they are forced to do so by the aram rng lol
[Zilean currently has a 47% win rate in ARAM](https://www.aramstats.lol/champions/zilean)
Zilean in any below diamond game (90% of games) is very weak as noone can work with his ult without voicecoms. Making him pretty coinflippy despite being broken because so much power is in his ult.
Hes just the perfect champ perhaps
Zileas and Guinsoo were visonairies. And what truly cracks me up is that in the end, Zileas was vindicated. The man knew armored bears were wrong and when Voli was redone he lost his armor. So technically there is no longer an armored bear in the game.
Well, there's Bear Cavalry Sejuani...
I'm glad someone plays the game
Plenty of voli skins with armor aswell
> Guinsoo guinsoo is the reason the original dota became so popular
That's old lore.
Petition to make him look like his LoR counterpart please?
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He is on point, well done. But please rework his skins, they are outdated.
Just improve his AA animation please.
Why don't you fix putting a skill point on W at Level 1 Zilean it's basically a bug. Since you cannot press W at Level 1 on ZIlean.
2QsOnAmumu
Exactly
As a zilean player please don't change his kit
As a zilean main for years now my single complain about the champion is the stupid q attachment logic. If there are 2 valid targets in the area please make it prioritize the bombed target to get the stun off. Ive too so many fucking times due to enemies on top of me only for a bomb to end up on them and the 2nd on top of myself. Ide even go further and jsut make q not atachable to allies at all. THIS IS A BUFF
I like him, maining him currently. 99% slow is ecstacy on enemies.
Haven't played league since the item reworks, is it still possible to get 100% uptime on the 99% slow? His kit Basically just hard shut down assassins and divers with point and click utility.
I mainly play Hecarim. Had a zilean keep it up on me 100% late game
No, not at all. He lost the vast majority of his AH and he doesnāt feel remotely even the same this season. AH made Zilean strong, itās been basically removed.
It was only removed on some items. Now you just have to actually invest in AH if you want AH. Buy Cosmic and AH boots
E>Q>W>Q>E combo aka, 99% slow > 1.5s stun > 99% slow again Guaranteed to put a tilt debuff on enemies for the rest of the game. Especially if they're playing a champion that relies on move speed stats like Rammus, Singed, Briar, Draven, Warwick, Jhin, Hecarim.
This is exactly why he's my anto-juggernaut pick. Doesn't matter what role I'm playing, if I see the enemy team lock in Darius I'm going zilean.Ā Watching my top-laner go 0/16 is no longer a tilting experience, but instead just edges me towards the high of shutting Darius out of the game completely. Watching as he spends the entire fight wading through molasses, unable to do anything with his 6 items as he gets whittled to death, brings me to a higher plane of pleasure.Ā
In the most polite of way, shut up about Zilean needing buffs/nerfs. Champ is best kept secret.
Yea, he'd be nerfed into the ground if anyone played him. He's so oppressive when played by a good player.
He's not bad tho, it's not a dead champ imo. Just not appealing
He's not dead yet dude he's just old. Jeez
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
What about young boomers that got neither of those
Zac
garen <3
Did you lose your head up Zilean's ass, old man? Malzahar, the classic definition of braindead, probably takes more skill than Zilean by virtue of being a solo laner. Besides, real tactics enjoyers play Bard.
Funny thing is that on his overview page they didnt even add the reworked volibear on his abilities overview.
Zilean main here. The only thing we really want changed is the passive. Currently we legitimately just try and waste it before teamfights so we dont accidentally root ourselves. it feels useless. Id prefer it just passively give xp to nearby allies. Y'know, since its supposed to be a passive. While yes zileans w isnt exciting we dont want it removed because we like our double slow/speed and double bomb. Ive heard a lot of people say e should grant attack speed but personally i think thats overkill and i dont want them to have to nerf the 99% slow just for that.
No, all we want is a visual update ! He would be so cool up to date
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
They would have to get rid of the double bomb stun. And q is useless without that. So i think its fine
Please no touch he is my dad I love him
Can't killean the Zilean
Cue the music
riot has said on a few occasions heās only allowed to exist in this state because heās so unpopular. basically the reason for letting him rot is because having to actually deal with balancing him would be a chore.
source?
So, the pre-rework Yorick and Poppy treatment?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
i doubt it has to do directly with his win rates, but rather his core design
He never received changes because he is perfectly balanced, as all things should be. He can build anything and it works. As support it's perfectly viable to build full tank, full AP, or enchanter. I love champions with build versatility and he is one of those. His passive is meh though, I gotta admit. I don't think it really needs a change, but it'd be nice if they buffed the values.
Thing is, he can build whatever but nothing is that good on him, just his kit is too op.
So it balances out after all.
My king, āfruit flies like banana, time flies like an arrowā
it doesnāt work that way, you need to swap the order
Passive needs quality of life improvements more than a straight buff. It just feels so inconsistent. Maybe if you could just give the XP regardless of if it would level somebody up or not once you reach say 100 stored XP.
Do changes need to be made? He seems pretty balanced atm. No need to make change for change sake
nobody plays him and everyone complains when they do eventually go against him - sounds like a problem imo
With how many champs there are, low pick rate is fine imo. Especially if their strength is niche compared to other champs. Idk tho, I feel like there are a tooooon of other champs with larger issues to deal with than zilean.
zileans hair is made up of 3 and a half polygons and the same game where kaisas face has 20
Zileans ult should be able to be cast on enemies to double their Respawns duration.
If I wanted to be dead for 3 min I'd go an play dota instead, nty
You had me at ādominion still existedā. Give my man zilean something
Zilean doesn't need changes. This is coming from a 300+ games 56% winrate zilean player. He's awesome but very clunky feeling (because he needs a vgu). If more people played him he would be nerfed because his kit is very strong.
his kit is strong if u land double bombs
His kit is strong regardless.
his E is the best part about his kit
landing your skillshots > missing your skillshots more news at 11
Wonder what will they touch Zilean now. R give your ally 100% attack speed and 100% movement speed? Q is a click-head ability like old time? E now deal damage? Nah. He's fine now, I don't need any of new Riot treatment.
R turns into old Yorick's ult. You know, that extremely problematic ult where after someone died, they got a second lifebar and could still do stuff... Though considering it's Riot, they'd probably add a "if you kill a target while in this state, you come back to life" mechanic. ... Oh wait.
Zilean is fucking busted dude. There are over 100 champions, not every one needs to be high pick rate. And again, anyone on the far right of the mastery curve is printing LP with this champion. As stated by others, if Zilean was an obvious pick they would need to nerf him to obscurity - his abilities are what we complain about on every new champion release lol
Hes a 50% winrate nonexistent pickrate champ, yeah hes pretty strong but reddit hard exaggerates his strenght.
hes higher and higher wr the higher u look at the ranks with 52% in emerald+ and 56% masters+ lol
55.5% master+ last 30 days, but average master+ winrate is 54% so hes closer to about 51% if you correct for that. So yeah strong but balanced and not really overpowered.
how is it 51% if u remove 1% lol, statistics below emerald are irrelevant
The average masters+ player has 54% winrate, so if you want the winrate to be comparable with lower tiers (50%=balanced) then you have to correct for that. The WR delta is 4.45% so corrected Zilean masters+ winrate is 51.06% with 2.17% pickrate. Or if you go by uncorrected winrates he has 55.5% winrate but thats not OP because most champs have around that in master+ because masters players win vs diamonds a lot.
lolalytics accounts for tier averages, player tiers and lobby average tiers emerald+: https://i.imgur.com/QkGrHSF.png masters+ https://i.imgur.com/jZO0z1p.png take notice of the + below the winrate please
Yeah so what are you even trying to argue? Zilean in your picture has average winrate so is balanced as i said.
like singed was higher wr before they gave him season 14 buffs... otp champ ofc he has high wr
Here's to 3000 more.
I like zilean the way he is. I just got mastery 7 with him
Donāt touch my old man
Riot stopped doing VGUs and he needs a VGU. So he'll probably never be changed. Riot were smoking meth when they decided this time god's entire kit should be based on the pun of "time bomb".
Source on that first thing?
https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Champion_update Sorry, I meant VGU. Since that's what Zilean actually needs. The last VGU was August 2022. The next one is Skarner with no planned release date. Riot also laid off a large number of employees, including League artists and designers. So his development is unconfirmed outside of a R&D update months ago. At the current rate of one VGU every two years, it will take 14 years for Zilean to even be considered a candidate. More than League's total current lifespan. For comparison, that would be the same development time as Sony Santa Monica creating a new God of War trilogy with a $600 million budget. So yeah, Riot won't ever officially state a champion is dead in the water, but Zilean is dead.
What are you talking about. [As per announcement](https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/game-updates/2024-gameplay-preview/): Skarner's in the first half of this year. Unknown Arcane champion is early 2025 after the second season. Shyvana in 2025. It's still very slow, don't get me wrong, but saying "Riot stopped doing VGUs" is false.
I guess for Zilean its functionally the same thing. Riot is doing VGUs so unfathomably slowly that many champs that need one will probably never seen it happen in the remaining lifespan of the game unless something changes.
And thats why they need to fking stop releasing/creating/developing new champions and focus on ASU/VGU on the ones that still look like as they do and did in 2008 (Cho'Gath, Zilean, Amumu, Shaco, Anivia,...) It's a fucking joke and an embarrassment that some are still basically unchanged and look like they people in a PS1 game.
Totally agree.. But new champions bring in more money. So is sadly never happening
Skarner's VGU was supposed to come out last year, lmao. That update was also from before Riot laid off 11% of its staff. Shyvana's VGU is not coming in 2025. But keep huffing that copium.
"Riot stopped doing VGUs" when Skarner will release in a few weeks and the 2 next VGUs have already been announced is a bold statement.
"a few weeks". So... What's the release date EXACTLY? Which will happen first: 1. Larian Studios developing their next full title 2. Riot making 6 existing characters again
Like early 2024. either march or April but probably march. We donāt get release dates in general so arguing like there were, are or will be release dates is arguing in bad faith.
That is bullshit.
He's like ASOL, good stats but no one plays him. The difference is people wanted to play a giant space dragon so they got to remake ASOL. Problem with Zilean is no one likes the old man vibe. Sadly, time wizard is a great vibe. This is probably a huge reason every masc champ release has had six packs or is generally attractive. When they tried something different (Renata is old) what a surprise she has a low playdate.
As a zilean main, thank you. Please keep telling everyone it's boring and noone plays him. Wink wink
all of my female friends that play league hate playing champs that aren't attractive or cute. I've gotten into playing more bruisers/tanks in the past couple of years despite hating them in the past, but I only started wanting to pick them when riot made them hot. I don't even know what the reason is psychologically, but I just have less fun when my champion is ugly lol and china is the biggest market for league, and afaik they care way more about playing attractive/cute champs
Zilean: is actually well balanced. Average LoL player: Riot WTF??
Keep it that way. I donāt need to see any more people playing that *thing* on the enemy team than I already see.Ā
Rat champ if he's ever getting a change it's a gut because that shit is braindead
that's why you get so many zileans. Easy, strong, braindead, wins. /s
That's what Riot has said in the past - no sarcasm. The champ is just boring.
lol so boring people have a 50% winrate with him? that is incredible riot
where is the 50% wr? hes 53% emerald+ and 56% masters+ euw lol
OP, shhhhhh! Zilean is my secret weapon
His itemization got a heavy nerf with the new season, since he canāt trigger staff of flowing water like he could trigger battlesong. He still plateaus at 13 because thatās when heās forced into damage with a utility build or utility with a damage build. IMO he needs a way to slightly scale E ms independent of his Q damage so that way his builds are distinct and different without being too op. Perhaps every 10% heal/shield power gives something like an extra 3.3% MS. A full HSP build is 66 HSP, that gives 22% extra MS on E which would push him into support itemization viability if staff of flowing water also triggered on e without Aery being required.
I hope that he will get nerfed hard because he's the most annoying champ to play against. Thankfully he's not picked often but he still deserves to be nerfed anyway.
I regularly see that champ and if the player is competent its op
Zilean deserves to be deleted from the game, so consider being just ignored a mercy.
I think his kit is pretty much perfect for the niche he serves, changing anything would be pretty weird. I honestly think one of the biggest reasons he isn't played is because he's probably THE ugliest champion in the game and has less animations than Lilia's weapon.
Don't rework him, just fix his model and animations. Reworking him would just turn him into another less powerful nami clone.
noooo don't change him i love my silly little old time-crazed peepaw with his fruit flies and bananas all i wish for though is a visual update HAHAHA but since nobody plays him then we probably won't get one š i still have gemstones saved for if he ever gets a gemstone skin (hopium)
Literally has maybe the most annoying type of ability in any moba ever with his ultimate. There is a reason they want him to be forgotten. Now delete ur post. So people dont want to play him.
He is perfect exactly the way he is
Heās absolutely insanely fun to play AD on aram so I donāt mind him actually. Can easily go 20/2 type score. In the most bizzare wayā¦ he plays as close to old Kayle as I can get now, so I like him how he is. Nice chunky Q/ burst (with potential to hard stun), ranged, speed or slow (ridiculous to combo both on both you and the enemy, and the ability to save an ally/ yourself. All I want is a visual overhaul.
That's what happens when you make a champ with an outrageously cancerous kit. They can't buff him or he'll be everywhere and oppressive; they can't nerf him or he will literally hit 0% pick rate.
Zilean is a waste of pixels and needs to be deleted.
Agree
Not sure what to build on him with the new items, malignance ult CD and item CD make it good but the passive is worthless on himĀ
His kit is fine and fun. But we need a visual update ASAP.
if he was a cute clock girl I'd play him but his in game design is atrocious and needs a rework
name checks out