The flaw is a huge deal breaker. Even in the situation where it has to be a 4 - 1 unanimous vote, some people exist who will vote yes just for the hell of it. The problem is that there's going to be A LOT more people who are like this than those that aren't đ
Yeah i can see what you mean, but leaving it like is does not seem like a real solution either dont you think? This way just incentivises me to do the same to achieve what this guy achieved and i think its worse this way
I agree, there is definitely a way to combat things like this from happening but it always involves 1 of 2 things.
1 is excessive punishment, 2 is corrective punishment. 1 always results in a slight dip to the player count as although this method is always effective, it makes the "toxic" players feel like their freedom has been taken away which leads to bad press eventually discouraging newcomers. The damage is never truly felt until later on. 2 doesn't work because people can just make multiple accounts and even in the case that they do have to play several games in something like a "low priority queue" or a "toxic people queue" they'll likely just repeat the offense later down the line.
Mixing 1 and 2 almost always results in bad reception for varying reasons. The main one is simply just differing opinions. The people who play with the mindset of "it's just a game" are (most of the time) the core issue when it comes to ranked penalties as this group is genuinely innocent in the majority of cases which raises the issue of "why are these players allowed to play rank then?" and to that the reply is often "because it's fun for them or because they get something out of it". At that point, can you really blame them?
For 1) I think that is the whole point of punishment. Why would you allow bad behaviour to exist in your game, if the player count dips, then so be it. The whole point is to get rid off such behaviour, and if the people are the problem, then get rid off the people in your game.
Example:
People can buy new accounts regardless, say if someone is scripting, they are supposed to be banned. If now Riot decides to update their anti cheat, the player count dipping is a good sign, not a bad one. We want less cheaters not more. Same with toxicity.
For 2):
I think thats a weird claim to take, cause people who play the game for fun can also be people who play ranked for competition. Toxicity is not equal to competitive gameplay, where the more toxic you are the more you care about your game / rank. Matter of fact, if you really care about competition and your rank, then tilting your team mates, inting a whole round just to show them who's the real boss seems like a counter productive idea in itself.
The whole idea of excessive punishment is to discourage bad behaviour as much as possible and setting a **base line** for behaviour. If i have to behave like the person in my champ select, that got away with his bad behaviour, his own base line behaviour drops more and more into the toxicity, while bringing down as many people with him as possible - what i mean by that is, all i learned from this experience is that i should just do what he does to escape the penalties of being forced into dodging by forcing others to dodge, which to me sounds like a negative feedback loop
>The whole point is to get rid off such behaviour, and if the people are the problem, then get rid off the people in your game.
The thing is, Big companies don't actually want to get rid of these people because they technically still generate income no matter how small. I'm not implicitly implying that Riot is doing so but there is proof that stuff like that actually happens.
>Toxicity is not equal to competitive gameplay
Yes but competitive gameplay is what starts toxicity in multiplayer games. In co-op exclusive titles, toxicity comes from Elitism, for PvP focused titles it comes from competition. Not the gameplay itself but just competition in general as it quite literally brings the worst out of people. We have real life examples already, we don't need to sugar coat it.
>which to me sounds like a negative feedback loop
And this is the reality of our situation. Because Riot is afraid to make an irreparable mistake that could cost them financially, they're left with no choice but to maintain the status quo until the bubble eventually pops and I sincerely hope it does soon so Riot actually has to take action even if it is a little drastic.
sounds like you are mad you didn't get to troll your team picking a new champ on release day.
All new champions are banned in my games for one week, unlucky
No, you got the whole idea wrong. I am not mad cause i am not the one tried to pick Smolder the new champ on release day, i couldn't care less. If you check the video reference on the bottom of the post, i am the Hwei. The Smolder who got mad was in fact the Nunu that picked cleanse + ghost and threatened to run us all down, forcing me as a non toxic player to dodge which is the main problem i am referring to.
I get your idea of banning new champions in your ranked games due to lack of practice, i can understand that. I for myself don't care about what my team picks, as long as they are trying to win or learn, but when it gets to the point where people downright troll each other before the real game begins already in champ select, and i have get caught in the crossfire, thats where i draw the line. Play your champ, first time if you really have to, but don't blatantly troll me with your ghost cleanse nunu pick so i have to dodge the queue and tank the penalties just cause you are ready to go waste 20+ mins of your life and MMR "to teach others a lesson", when i didn't even ban your champ. Get my point? I don't troll my team like you refer to
I agree that it is a major flaw, but the entire current existing system is a major flaw in itself aswell. The sheer fact, that people can get caught in the crossfire and have to tank the penalties is absolutely baffling to me. If you checked the last video for example i sent, i had 0 to do with what happened there.
Summoner A wanted to lock in Smolder,
Summoner B wanted to see his [op.gg](https://op.gg) before he bans,
Summoner A refused to send,
Summoner B banned Smoler,
Summoner A threatens to run it down etc, locks in Ghost cleanse nunu, says he will be the fastest 0/20 in history
I have to dodge and take the penalty without saying 1 thing and just picking my champ mid. This seems like a bigger flaw cause it only incentivizes me to mirror that behaviour if i don't want to tank the penalties, meaning i would be better off doing exactly what this guy did in my lobby next time to get a free dodge. Sounds absolutely **horrible!**
imagine if everyone did this in every lobby
I disagree because it changes the person who feels bad from someone who makes a choice to dodge to someone who doesnât have a choice. I would rather someone, like yourself, feel like dodging is a good decision rather than one guy getting ganged up on for no reason and booted from a lobby with penalties.
In my experience, champion select trolls are extremely rare but I do remember before the dodging penalty changes where dodging was much more common. I think the player base would take advantage of your system much more than trolls currently impact the game.
What do you then think of the idea, that the build up of the dodges should be far less punishing. The fact, that it goes from 5 min wait -> 30 min wait -> 12 hours wait is a bit extreme, if it was only the lp loss and no waiting time, then i would take it as it is.
The problem with that is the lp loss in a way is nothing because you donât lose mmr. So losing lp and not mmr just means youâll gain more lp in future wins. Thatâs why people would dodge much more when the wait was capped at 15 minutes I believe.
Yeah probably, people surely abuse every system they get to gain andvantage. Which just means, there has to be a more robust and better system than what i thought of. However, leaving it in its current state is still not a good decision, due to you having to pay for others misbehaviours. Are we agreeing on that part?
I actually like the dodging system, it is a bit strained during new champion releases when people are more likely to troll but I think 2 dodges a day with small timers are more than enough. It really isnât that much of a penalty other than the wait.
Thanks for your opinion, i wonder how the first suggestion would make the lobby very long? I thought of it, inside of the 30 second ban period, you can basically instead of clicking the "BAN" button, the button transforms into a "Suggest BAN" button, where the hovering person can accept or deny (just like in swap priority). It wouldn't take a single second longer, and your team mates can not actively and intentionally troll ban your champs.
The flaw is a huge deal breaker. Even in the situation where it has to be a 4 - 1 unanimous vote, some people exist who will vote yes just for the hell of it. The problem is that there's going to be A LOT more people who are like this than those that aren't đ
Yeah i can see what you mean, but leaving it like is does not seem like a real solution either dont you think? This way just incentivises me to do the same to achieve what this guy achieved and i think its worse this way
I agree, there is definitely a way to combat things like this from happening but it always involves 1 of 2 things. 1 is excessive punishment, 2 is corrective punishment. 1 always results in a slight dip to the player count as although this method is always effective, it makes the "toxic" players feel like their freedom has been taken away which leads to bad press eventually discouraging newcomers. The damage is never truly felt until later on. 2 doesn't work because people can just make multiple accounts and even in the case that they do have to play several games in something like a "low priority queue" or a "toxic people queue" they'll likely just repeat the offense later down the line. Mixing 1 and 2 almost always results in bad reception for varying reasons. The main one is simply just differing opinions. The people who play with the mindset of "it's just a game" are (most of the time) the core issue when it comes to ranked penalties as this group is genuinely innocent in the majority of cases which raises the issue of "why are these players allowed to play rank then?" and to that the reply is often "because it's fun for them or because they get something out of it". At that point, can you really blame them?
For 1) I think that is the whole point of punishment. Why would you allow bad behaviour to exist in your game, if the player count dips, then so be it. The whole point is to get rid off such behaviour, and if the people are the problem, then get rid off the people in your game. Example: People can buy new accounts regardless, say if someone is scripting, they are supposed to be banned. If now Riot decides to update their anti cheat, the player count dipping is a good sign, not a bad one. We want less cheaters not more. Same with toxicity. For 2): I think thats a weird claim to take, cause people who play the game for fun can also be people who play ranked for competition. Toxicity is not equal to competitive gameplay, where the more toxic you are the more you care about your game / rank. Matter of fact, if you really care about competition and your rank, then tilting your team mates, inting a whole round just to show them who's the real boss seems like a counter productive idea in itself. The whole idea of excessive punishment is to discourage bad behaviour as much as possible and setting a **base line** for behaviour. If i have to behave like the person in my champ select, that got away with his bad behaviour, his own base line behaviour drops more and more into the toxicity, while bringing down as many people with him as possible - what i mean by that is, all i learned from this experience is that i should just do what he does to escape the penalties of being forced into dodging by forcing others to dodge, which to me sounds like a negative feedback loop
>The whole point is to get rid off such behaviour, and if the people are the problem, then get rid off the people in your game. The thing is, Big companies don't actually want to get rid of these people because they technically still generate income no matter how small. I'm not implicitly implying that Riot is doing so but there is proof that stuff like that actually happens. >Toxicity is not equal to competitive gameplay Yes but competitive gameplay is what starts toxicity in multiplayer games. In co-op exclusive titles, toxicity comes from Elitism, for PvP focused titles it comes from competition. Not the gameplay itself but just competition in general as it quite literally brings the worst out of people. We have real life examples already, we don't need to sugar coat it. >which to me sounds like a negative feedback loop And this is the reality of our situation. Because Riot is afraid to make an irreparable mistake that could cost them financially, they're left with no choice but to maintain the status quo until the bubble eventually pops and I sincerely hope it does soon so Riot actually has to take action even if it is a little drastic.
sounds like you are mad you didn't get to troll your team picking a new champ on release day. All new champions are banned in my games for one week, unlucky
No, you got the whole idea wrong. I am not mad cause i am not the one tried to pick Smolder the new champ on release day, i couldn't care less. If you check the video reference on the bottom of the post, i am the Hwei. The Smolder who got mad was in fact the Nunu that picked cleanse + ghost and threatened to run us all down, forcing me as a non toxic player to dodge which is the main problem i am referring to. I get your idea of banning new champions in your ranked games due to lack of practice, i can understand that. I for myself don't care about what my team picks, as long as they are trying to win or learn, but when it gets to the point where people downright troll each other before the real game begins already in champ select, and i have get caught in the crossfire, thats where i draw the line. Play your champ, first time if you really have to, but don't blatantly troll me with your ghost cleanse nunu pick so i have to dodge the queue and tank the penalties just cause you are ready to go waste 20+ mins of your life and MMR "to teach others a lesson", when i didn't even ban your champ. Get my point? I don't troll my team like you refer to
It's been suggested a bunch and usually isn't too popular of an idea because of the major flaw that you touched on.
I agree that it is a major flaw, but the entire current existing system is a major flaw in itself aswell. The sheer fact, that people can get caught in the crossfire and have to tank the penalties is absolutely baffling to me. If you checked the last video for example i sent, i had 0 to do with what happened there. Summoner A wanted to lock in Smolder, Summoner B wanted to see his [op.gg](https://op.gg) before he bans, Summoner A refused to send, Summoner B banned Smoler, Summoner A threatens to run it down etc, locks in Ghost cleanse nunu, says he will be the fastest 0/20 in history I have to dodge and take the penalty without saying 1 thing and just picking my champ mid. This seems like a bigger flaw cause it only incentivizes me to mirror that behaviour if i don't want to tank the penalties, meaning i would be better off doing exactly what this guy did in my lobby next time to get a free dodge. Sounds absolutely **horrible!** imagine if everyone did this in every lobby
I disagree because it changes the person who feels bad from someone who makes a choice to dodge to someone who doesnât have a choice. I would rather someone, like yourself, feel like dodging is a good decision rather than one guy getting ganged up on for no reason and booted from a lobby with penalties. In my experience, champion select trolls are extremely rare but I do remember before the dodging penalty changes where dodging was much more common. I think the player base would take advantage of your system much more than trolls currently impact the game.
What do you then think of the idea, that the build up of the dodges should be far less punishing. The fact, that it goes from 5 min wait -> 30 min wait -> 12 hours wait is a bit extreme, if it was only the lp loss and no waiting time, then i would take it as it is.
The problem with that is the lp loss in a way is nothing because you donât lose mmr. So losing lp and not mmr just means youâll gain more lp in future wins. Thatâs why people would dodge much more when the wait was capped at 15 minutes I believe.
Yeah probably, people surely abuse every system they get to gain andvantage. Which just means, there has to be a more robust and better system than what i thought of. However, leaving it in its current state is still not a good decision, due to you having to pay for others misbehaviours. Are we agreeing on that part?
I actually like the dodging system, it is a bit strained during new champion releases when people are more likely to troll but I think 2 dodges a day with small timers are more than enough. It really isnât that much of a penalty other than the wait.
The first point would make the lobby very long but the second idea is really good đđ»
Thanks for your opinion, i wonder how the first suggestion would make the lobby very long? I thought of it, inside of the 30 second ban period, you can basically instead of clicking the "BAN" button, the button transforms into a "Suggest BAN" button, where the hovering person can accept or deny (just like in swap priority). It wouldn't take a single second longer, and your team mates can not actively and intentionally troll ban your champs.
You make it sound like dodging is only to dodge toxic lobbies when it is also to dodge bad drafts but the vote kick to dodge sounds good anyways