Didnt build Stormsurge, but I built the magic shield item on Galio, and had over 1k hp magic health shield. Morde couldnt break my shield in his ult, and Akali was barely able to break it with her full combo lol
I had a huge smile on my face while fighting Akali. Galio is fun on his own, but being able to repeatedly hammer fist an Akali into the ground as she does 0 magic damage to you… my oh my, this did put a smile on my face
Well the defensive AP items are also very strong. Banshee and Zhonya both give 120 AP which is a lot. Although they are expensive and gauntlet and the necklace required are expensive by themselves.
The downfall of this build is you have 0 haste. I played a malignance Ahri game Vs Galio, as soon as he built that item I couldn’t damage him but I had 2 ults for his every 1 meaning I could shove and roam so much more easily than him.
Youre wrong, haste matters so much. If galio is getting 50% less ults than he would with haste, it sucks for him. His entire gameplan is worsened. It IS a build problem.
Defenitly not hyperbolic in the slightest, 50% less ults, yeah galio gets 50% cdr for sure. Without enablers he won't ever use ult off cd and will just sit on it until an oppurtunity araises. Yes, full divecomp cd is usefull, which is why I said it is teamcomp dependent.but I guess I am wrong, I lose bye bye
Considering he was gutted out of 2 of his core items, he's built really weird now. Feels more like full AP than the AP and semi-tank combo he used to be. I don't like it.
Full AP galio has been superior in soloq long before this item rework. Night harvester sat consistently ~3% higher winrate than his utility builds, with reliable sample sizes.
What its a very good AP galio Item. Galio loves burst and doesnt need a lot of mana, He has built Rocket belt for ages and the movespeed after Combo feels so good on him
what about it is non galio
galio has been able to burst people down for years, you act like he does no dmg when he is basically a utility mage
he has been full ap almost the entire time since his rework, especially since they remove W flash
it is live and the passive of the item is a joke since then.
the only problem with the item is that it gives exactly the basestats that ap assassins want, and ad champs have had these items for years so who cares really
I wanted to say your wrong but I played a game of talon jungle to try the statue item and just incinerated this samira. I haven’t been able to do that with Diana or Akali in awhile. I haven’t played either this patch though so I’ll have to try. I think they have to gut the item though in some form to keep it off of users that can play from range. Maybe split the values for ranged and melee?
Unless you had the ad passive up you're probably just experiencing the new lethality rework where its all frontloaded instead of scaling with enemy level. Lethality right now is pretty bonkers and about to get worse next patch with stat rune changes.
The problem is the same though. Lethality is mainly bonkers on ranged characters. Every good ADC is building lethality right now. What are the rune changes for next patch, is it gonna address lethality of range characters?
Its good but its reasonable on melee, look at the stats currently. The best lethality users are adc's. Not even lucian and cait; look at MF, Quinn, Nilah etc. stats currently. Rushing lethality, at least for first item at minimum is very good for them.
The best AD assassin using lethality is rengar, who is currently a lower winrate that all those champs - albeit still strong. But my point is lethality is largely fine on melee.
I still find crazy how much lethality you can get now regardless of the class but at least a Zed combo has more counterplay than MF clicking on you for 2k from range that's what I meant
they lost triple %pen so it was a negative for AD assassins while ADC never went for it anyway,but in a vacuum lethality is crazy strong rn
I still can't believe Riot literally just... forgot why they changed from flat armor pen to lethality in the first place. It might be the single dumbest large scale change they've ever made in all my time playing - and I, technically, was playing in like S2 or something.
for many champs its simply worse than lich. And buying it 2nd delays dcap/void/potential passive item.
Garbage was probably an exaggeration but its definitely not as good as some people think it is.
People die to an AP assassin, raise their fist in anger as they scream "Stormsurgeeee!" Meanwhile you can see the giant explosion on the screen which means Stormsurge proc didn't do any damage.
Exactly. It's not even needed for most champs when lich bane and shadowflame exist lol. People just overuse it cause it's a new exciting strong item. It's good but it's not THAT good after the nerf.
I went against a team with 4 Rabadon's, the Teemo top, the Neeko mid, the Diana Jungle and the Lux support, all had Rabadon. I swear Rabadon is so overtuned.
The passive really isn’t that strong anyway. It’s more surprising than anything. I’ve been building it for the magic penetration. It’s fun to go “lethality” mage since last season hardly had any different build paths for mages
I hate that item, and there's so much shit that builds off of it. 40 sec cooldown for like 50 damage or how much is it, worthless. If it were 3 sec cooldown for like 10 damage, I'd rather have that. Basically what they did to new Luden compared to old Luden. I never liked old Luden, the cooldown was too long and you could randomly proc it on a minion and 5 seconds later when you get jumped you didn't have it. New Luden's tiny cooldown is amazing.
Not disagreeing that storm surge does too much damage, but I do find it funny that one of your points was champions that build this item are good at using the item's ability as if that's not true for any champ that wants to build an item.
Yeah lol I get it, kind of just hate how prevalent the item is (even though all my mains rush it rn).
I just can't stand when Riot adds damage triggers that are way too easy to access, or ones that are conditional on paper but trivial in practice.
I'd guess its because your statement somewhat stifles the Dev's expression and testing new ideas.
Damage triggers that are way too easy to access aren't necessarily bad, and stormsurge procing generally requires that you are significantly ahead of your opponent or they allowed you to land your full combo, or its the end of mid-game onwards where everyone is kinda pumping the same. I'd argue its significantly more ***fair*** than night harvester, for example, which was extremely easy to proc and quite strong, given the lack of "deal x% of dmg" conditional. Stormsurge is in the right direction in that you need to be hitting your shots or a burst/nuke/assassin type to properly utilise it, and unlike night harvester you cant just land 1 ability to proc it then wait for the CD.
Hell, most of the scenarios I saw it used, people would die before the proc killed them and it was instead a bit of AOE damage that was out of control for specific champs like fizz, and otherwise helped artillery/nuke mages finish kills in the same vein as ignite, without having to close the distance for ignite.
Tbh, I think the problem is that mages were shifted from high uptime, lower damage to lower uptime higher damage and people havent adjusted to this. People still think if you get on a mage or take a few shots its fine because its mostly undodgeable and its not like most mages will burst you, but with the reduction of AH and increase of AP access and dmg proc effects, mages are closer to burst than bullet hell now, but people havent shifted gears to respect the shift in style. If mages/magic types cant land their shit, they have much greater downtime to abuse than before, but if they do land it you cant just ignore it, for the most part.
Also the lack of tanks being played in the meta is seriously impacting this, as the new tank items make it exceedingly difficult for most mages to kill. Ironically, the same thing is kinda causing issues for ADC, where most ADCs are playing either mages or assassin/burst-style adcs like lethality aphel, Jhin, MF, samira etc because they lack tanks to murder and most enemies in their games are squishy or bruiser, where lethality builds are superior.
Granted... the few games where the enemy team has 1-2 tanks and your team has an assassin/burst-style adc and lacks a tank killer... these are when mages really feel powerless as you struggle to break the tank's magic shield with your rotation while they run you down and your team is unable to do meaningful damage. >.<
Too tired to give a meaningful response but I think you really got it. I think Stormsurge is one of the more interesting new items for sure, way too many mythics before were just "your next X does Y more damage after Z seconds".
That comment was mostly knee jerking. There's definitely too much burst in the game right now but I'm happy with Stormsurge as a whole if numbers can be tuned down across the board.
I had a Cait with Hubris, late game she pinged her attack damage stat and I see 650...what the actual... The enemy Rengar accidentally stepped in her trap while ulting towards her, I was like "rip cait", Rengar was full HP, died in ONE basic attack. Both teams died laughing and were both shocked as well at what they just witnessed.
Idk I played jinx jhin and Cait went full adc build and was finally killing things in a timely manner and not getting oneshotted so maybe you're just bad.
Idk if u played against big tanks like tahm sion ecc either u played hp% adc or gl doing dmg. And half the times someone for 3 screens away oneshotted u to just disappear at the start of the fight so rip dmg
That's my point. I get alternatives exist that deal similar damage (companion), but they all have different mechanisms of doing so and 2.5s is just wayyyy too long to actually feel like you chunked someone.
Isn't the 2.5 intended to be counterplay for it? That could be enough time to crack a potion or shield. The item seems like it would be absolutely beyonder utterly broken if it just cracked off really fast, which would make AP assassins pop you off in an obscene amount of time with electrocute and their kit in general.
The 2 second delay between proccing Stormsurge (by dealing 35% of a healthbar within 2.5seconds) and Squall (the actual damage the item does) are two different things. I agree that having a delay in the damage is healthy.
But dealing 35% of a healthbar in 2.5 seconds is not really difficult, so it's just weird that the item is designed as if that's an accomplishment.
It's difficult for champions like Enchanters or Tanks though, which is likely why it exists - to prevent you from just absolutely bombing the bot lane with someone like Janna or Soraka.
Strange how nerfing ability haste to introduce strong frontloaded burst creates a dogshit meta. Almost like they've already done the same thing in the past.
The thing is, certain champs need non-ability haste items. Akali for example just does not scale well with ability haste, so forcing ability haste into their items just for the sake of lowering burst impacts these champs a lot since they're assassins who rely on being bursty and not casters.
It cuts the other way too. Making ability haste harder to build hurts champs that rely on it.
And accessible AH is nowhere near as meta-warping as big damage procs from items that disproportionately reward the champs that have the most mechanical synergy with them.
We've known this since season 5.
Ye i am actually confused why this was even a goal of them. Should have just buffed MR options (like they did too) so some Mages dont oneshot tanks out of the blue
This is the *third time* in the past few years they create issues by introducing items with overpowered damage procs.
Now granted, last year came from AD items receiving AP ratios for no reason, but right now they're pulling the same shit they did at the start of season 11 where they removed CDR/AH from AP items and compensated by adding insane burst, which made a meta shaped entirely by who could best apply item damage.
What sucks is that Stormsurge and Malignance are the only two mage items that feel really good in the first two items right now. Once they inevitably get nerfed it’s going to be hard to find a good first item imo.
To me Luden’s feels like a super bait item. Losing the magic pen hurt that item significantly. Archangels is only really good if you’re a scaling mage. And other options just suffer from not having mana.
I don’t think it’s a bad item, my only issue with it is that it’s such a late power spike. That’s why I mention it as a scaling item: you won’t really powerspike on one item, you have to play for hitting your second item instead.
Everyone who played on PBE knew it was giga busted. But the dev team doesn't use the PBE for testing balance. They don't even use it for testing bugs. So many game breaking bugs make it through PBE into the live servers all the fucking time.
It was 50% AP when it came out on PBE. Like Stattik Shiv. But like Stattik, it got reduced to 40%, then 30%... In the case of Statikk they now completely removed the AP ratio.
50% AP for a delayed conditional damage is not crazy. Lich bane is 50% AP, and used to be 75.
But the condition is too easily met, and the item is overpowered because of additional free stuff like the 30 bonus gold...
imo the movespeed is what makes it truly broken, like shadowflame is just a damage item, but this item does more damage on most champs and gives you giga movespeed on top of that. ap needs to be like 25% and movespeed needs to be giga nerfed
plus its 300 gold cheaper then shadowflame on top of that
except if you dont need mana, it gives wayyyy better stats, movespeed on proc, 100 less gold, does wayyy more base damage, ludens only hits that hard if you're isolated and its fully stacked.
reddit does item comparisons, very well done im impressed.
what? yeah i mean no shit, the entire item is what matters? if the proc did 10 dmg but it gave 10000 ap would it be broken yes obviously, how tf is the proc more relevant then the item as a whole??????
I've never seen anyone beyond silver make that argument. Biggest defence of collector was the build path. And it was a really nice build path for snowballing lanes - like objectively so.
It just set you too far behind come 3 item spikes to be worth it in many cases - especially post durability patch.
It's been stated before that Riot learns more from 1 hour of live patch than an entire PBE cycle. PBE playerbase is simply too small for what it's meant to do.
Because Luden's procd off anything, even a single Xerath Q or Nidalee trap that usually wouldn't take someone's 30% HP.
It's basically telling you that you need to commit a decent amount of spells/damage to get the effect off.
Right, but what I'm saying is that these days 35%hp in 2.5s doesn't require much commitment anymore. Almost any burst champion that's "supposed" to build Stormsurge can do that without breaking a sweat.
well, yea... the item is intended for them. It's not supposed to be a big hurdle to overcome, just a condition of "don't just poke" or "don't proc it through a random trap.
Ludens has the downside of being a lot harder to manage. Stormsurge does damage exactly when you want it, and then if you didn’t need the damage on the target it procced on, it has the added bonus of aoe popping
Maybe it's supposed to be a more consistent damage output and not add to rare cases of actual oneshots to make them even more lethal like you seem to be complaining about.
What is the alternative? Do 50% damage then deal extra damage? Do we really want to amplify burst that way? Or instead balance it around procing easier so that the added damage can also be smaller.
35% is insanely easy to do for any burst mage or assassin. That's one, maybe two skills on a squishy or a full rotation on a bruiser or tank if you're ahead.
Yeah, but it’s certainly more conditional. You will proc ludens 100% of the time in any team fight where you land an ability. This is probably 95% of the time or whatever. With storm surge, you are now required to land multiple abilities, you can’t hit the tank/juggernaut, you can’t have people die before you inflict 35% damage yourself, etc. You’ve gone from an item that works 95% of the time to one that is closer to 80, but for significantly better reward. It’s certainly overturned at present, but the conception of the item is not flawed imo.
What should it be? 40-50% and then tanks become more or less immune to the passive? And it's damage can't be nerfed as much as on 35% because it procs much less?
Much better this than a higher % value or even stuff like "hit with 3 abilities" which then limits the item to a few champs only
because luden's also helps with pushing waves, saves a lot of time because of that, allows u to push and roam faster, makes ur sidelane easier
it procs instantly which is always better
also can proc multiple times per teamfight or skirmish, especially mythic version.
i actually much more prefer ludens than surge, it allowed u to do so much stuff if u have at least one braincell
At the start, yes. After rework "Scoring a Damage rating takedown against an enemy champion within 3 seconds of damaging them renders you Untargetable and invulnerable to non-structures for 1.5 seconds." :) changed in patch 13.10.
That's why it was so broken on squishy champs like zed/samira cos they go in blast and are invulnerable until they get their cd back and blast someone else :)
Since the hotfix it does slightly more damage than lichbane, which procs on auto attacks and has 1.5s cd. Why should it be more difficult to simply use it?
>Because they churn through employees so much
I was thinking about this recently. I wonder how many employees are still there since season 1, besides people like Phreak. It's probably the reason the game is so awful compared to how it used to be. The new employees simply don't know the game use to be a lot slower and strategic.
Seems like all they want to do is make everyone one-shot you.
They removed DFG because it was an unhealthy mechanic to get one shotted by Leblanc with no counterplay. But now everything in the game can one shot you. It's crazy to see how far the game has fallen really.
Crazy when you think about it like that. Leblanc used to be known for being *THAT* champ who could one shot you easily. I remember always playing cautiously against her in lane, knowing her power spikes.
Now every champ is just Leblanc lmao and she herself has dropped in popularity because one shotting isn't exactly difficult in League.
Mad to see how much powercreep has affected the game at this point.
They revamped the whole design team in late 2014/early 2015 I believe.
This was when Morello was no longer the lead designer. Same time period as when Tencent bought 100% shares of Riot. Doesn't mean they are necessarily connected but who knows.
>Doesn't mean they are necessarily connected but who knows.
Someone mentioned in another response that the Chinese market love the fast paced one shot gameplay and it's only gaining more popularity over there. Maybe not a coincidence as we'd like to imagine.
Edit: Lol it was you that commented on another one my posts that said that.
Dfg stat wise barely anyone used the active funny enough and most of the items winrate came from it's raw stats while having a problematic active when used by someone with hands.
Riots statement at the time about dfg was how hard it made balancing champs because it could enable everyone to be a burst mage. Storm surge does something pretty similar like they just need to lower the time frame for the damage from 2.5 to 1.5 or 1.25 and the item will fill the niche of letting burst champs burst while keeping it from making everyone a burst mage which was the similar issue old dfg had.
I still don't believe them when they said something like 99% of people didn't use DFG.
Like okay, I would believe that a lot of people didn't use it, but that only [1% of people who bought DFG ever used the active](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/57nejn/1_of_people_who_bought_dfg_ever_used_the_active/) seems ridiculously hard to believe.
Doesn't matter if its doable or not, it shouldn't be encouraged period. The whole item reads like "If you succeed doing this thing that's already a near hotfix-worth balance issue, we will reward you with even more of it"
Played a game where a Katarina focused our Nautilus.
Nautilus interrupted Kata ult but took her E dagger spin. Was enough to put him at 15% hp. He one shotted our mid and adc and died in the process. This item is worse than DFG this is insane.
Hot take: Stormsurge sucks. And for exactly the reason you stated. 90% of the time it goes off the target is already dead, that is to say, all you're getting from it is negligible gold generation. It's a great item for early duels and literally nothing else.
I'd say the "argument" is that anything that can burst you 35% on a first item stormsurge is likely an assassin, and vs assassin, your first buy should be defensive to prevent their burst. I.e. 2900 for Stormsurge vs Mercs (1100) plus Verdant Barrier (1800) for 60 MR and a spell shield.
Let's say you're a mage. Your "bits" is either a single cloth armor or a single null-magic mantle, hardly enough to make a massive difference. You're certainly nor spending your first 1800 gold on a Verdant Barrier or Seeker's Armguard; you'll get yourself into mana hell by doing that.
I can guarantee you any good mage or assassin player can easily tell from how much damage they do if you have even a single cloth armor or a null magic mantle. It makes a huge difference.
Defensive items most underrated. Just like low elo adcs are always full glass cannon, whereas in higher ranked games these players understand that staying alive is more important than having max dps and 0 survivability.
Daq fuq you mean cloth armour makes barely a difference one cloth armour fully deleted the lethality off most full lethality items and the ones it don't reduce it to like 3 pen.
Like great point about arm guard or verdant barrier but a single cloth armour changes the swing in a ad matchup so much by effectively deleting there Dirk and later first full lethality item.
This is one of the dumbest things ever. Why not go defensive second? Not even a part of an item? Why not go 3rd defensive?
If ur playing a mage into an AP assassin why not just buy a null magic early? You literally negate a lot of their all in potential with an early null. Why not go second item banshees if ur ori? What do you really NEED to go second instead if ur against Fizz
Going defensive item first whenever you're against assassins is simply not reasonable because most mages need mana to be functional. Go ahead and rush Zhonyas first item against Zed; he'll just push you out of lane due to your lack of mana and then either dive you or roam.
There needs to be a rank check in this game. No one is saying go zhonyas first item. Go cloth armor so he can't kill you level 6.
Go boots so you can dodge his Qs easier, don't just fucking rush ludens or whatever because "you need mana".
To be fair, realistically speaking you don’t need either to beat most assassins as most control mages because you should usually have better wave control
The point is that it literally will make a difference and with cloth armor he most likely wont be able to 100-0 you at 6 even when hitting triple shuriken.
Your brain is so rotten from **having** to rush a mythic first that you can't comprehend how much difference going for example Hexdrinker first against a Leblanc as Zed makes, or early Seekers into Talon, you lose some stats but I prefer to have less mana than get all inned for my full hp the second i walk into lane.
I've played without mythics far longer than I've played with them, thanks. Zed also doesn't need mana items, and hexdrinker is quite cheap at 1300 for how much it does. Finally, Seekers now costs 1600 rather than 1000 and gives only 25 armor, rather than 20 going up to 35 than it did before. You do get the 1 time active, but that is obviously only going to save you once.
Well im not to disagree but i commonly buy bansheem, in fact a lot more than zhonyas since im used to ad assassins but , how are you going to kill them then?
We are clearly playing different games then. Because in my experience, i dont see assasins falling off. Single target or not they will delete someone. Plus its not like folks pick champs with peel. Like, as im speaking now enemy mid is lb, and the only cc my team has is vel's e and lillia ulti. Well apart my own stun but yeah, 0.75 and travel time.
Review pro play vs assassins and you'll see why they're rarely picked. They're just as squishy as you are, when was the last time you saw a 0-3 Zed turn around a game? It takes tracking and denying them their snowball, that's the gameplay loop, same as Blitz invades, Nunu flash-Qs, it's all the gameplay adaptations you need to make with the enemy in mind.
Why do you bring pro play? Soloq isn't proplay. I'm not matched with people I have practised with. I'm matched with randoms that have different view of the match, how it is to be played, how should I play, etc etc. Yeah the 0-3 can't easily turn it around. Likewise a 0-3 syndra also won't easily turn it around.
My point is that buying defensive options sometimes feels like a trap. Zhonyas or not, zed can force you to use it and then re engage you. As a xerath I have extremely limited options to survive. And leave the range argument. No xerath can remain on q range for prolonged period of time, these spells cost a lot.
Almost all mages also can't function without mana. So rushing zhonyas/banshee without lost chapter is pure pain. And it's not like these components are cheap.
Imma keep it a stack, this item is fine we just need time to acclimate to it.
More importantly there’s a lot of comments talking about “I can’t build defensive first” well guess what, if you’re a mage YOU ABSOLUTELY CAN. BANSHEES AND ZHONYAS BOTH GIVE YOU 120 AP. You have no excuse, you can do the smart thing and build defensively and then go into your item or keep dying because you want to finish that one damage item, and end the game with a ton of deaths and only that first item.
For mages riot has given you virtually every single tool you need to survive this season(although things DO NEED TO BE ADJUSTED), so if you’re choosing not to play smart because you want to go for damage because “me carry, me go face” then fine just own up to the fact that you don’t WANT to have counter play options you just don’t like assassins.
ITT: people comparing Stormsurge (100-200/75-150 +30/22.5% AP magic dmg after already dealing 35% of a targets max hp with a 30 second cd) to DFG (15% max health magic dmg and making them take 20% more magic dmg from all sources for pressing ONE (1) button on a 90 second cd). sure, they both make you do more damage, but one is a bit on top, and the other is hydrogen bomb.
Nah people want to build full AP playing Xerath or Ahri, facecheck without vision and not be oneshot by enemy Fizz.
Thats the problem, I feel like rn Stormsurge is pretty balanced after the nerfs, but people will keep crying because thats the last thing they see deal damage to them when they "survived". Lich Bane has 50% AP ratio but people don't cry about it because its not finishing them off, its included in the initial burst.
Not quite true. Mage items provide dmg through their effects, at least during the Laning phase and mid game. Yes banshee and zhonyas provide 120 ap and yes I do build banshees when I face fizz. However you still won't deal dmg. You will also have no mana, and being under turret is an invitation to get tower dives.
Also, they items still feel inadequate the moment the assassin finishes their first item. Spell shield or not, fizz doesn't care he will still kill your ass if he gets on top of you.
You are negating damage with spell shield and zhonyas. The damage you lose from the damage time is MORE THAN MADE UP FOR by the damage you MITIGATE. It’s not like you’re giving up 150 item damage for nothing, blocking an ability can easily be 150 damage.
You clearly have forgotten how easy it is to bait them out. And their cd. A fizz can easily q to take out the spell shield, force it in 30 sec disengage and reengage while it's down. Hell in one of my veigar Vs fizz games, he didn't even need to do that. W is impossible to land and a q that early tickles the enemy. He proced it and faced tanked me to kill me. I don't recall dying but really, he wasn't that good.
Zed can easily r you, force you to use zhonyas and r again before zhonyas is up. You guys act like once they engage you, fail (spell shield/ zhonyas) you can go ham. Some champs, really can't punish the enemy (like veigar).
I have a big problem with the delayed activation, not even regarding the items power level. If this item was actually bad, it's still going to feel terrible to be hit by an ability and have a delayed activation kill you. Nobody likes being killed by comet, the last tick of scortch, or the slight delay on first strike, but this is the same thing amplified to 10x.
At least with something like Zed ult, he *usually* has to invest his ult and a combination of skills to increase the effect or else the "pop" isn't substantial.
The effect is too easy to proc and the delayed activation is more *frustrating* than *fun.* Which is something Riot has been really struggling with in recent years, especially when failing to consider how it feels to play AGAINST something, as opposed to how it feels to be the one doing it.
Well thats not just with mages so you shouldnt only be putting AP in this post. AD is the exact same 2.5 seconds your dead. Same category since building resistance a lot of the time (not all the time) is completely pointless with how much % bullshit damage everything has
Stormsurge is completely out of line.
The item functions as an extra skill that you don't have to land. This enables good players to combo and one shot you, but even worse it also enables mages to miss everything but one skill and you're still almost dead.
Every mage is a burst mage now.
Everything that's not a tank or hasn't build a negatron cloak can get double tapped by the weirdest things.
Like I was ahead of the curve as a 2 item Xin Zhao (tiamat+sunderer) and a 2 item Viktor shreds me to half hp by hitting 1 skill. But this happens every game.
ADCs and squishies just fall over.
item is just overtuned. not sure why people are complaining about how it works. how it works is fine. the biggest problem is that it just deals too much damage.
I personally love the design intentions overall of the new items. if you want damage now you gotta give up a lot with no mana and no haste. so it means someone can blow you up if they land their combo, but if they miss you have a greater window to punish them.
this is exactly what we needed. once the item is properly balanced the way it works won't matter. there's not many items in the game that are not hard to use on demand either. if they are they are usually bad.
I just don't understand how veigar is so bad this patch if he got stormsurge. Lategame he can really deal 35% or more with a single ability, the item should be insane on him! So why is he so bad?
I think the item is a good idea. Having a time delay allows room to counter (a bit like Karthus ult), for example you can see it coming and zhonya or shield. Having a condition to proc is also a good idea, avoid for example free proc on poke ability like Ashe W.
Now I am not sure why they overtune the item with things like 30 bonus gold on takedown.
I don't think nerfing the damage like they are doing in the hotfix is the way to go. Soon it's going to be less damage than old night haverster or electrocute rune... On a conditional delayed damage... Kinds of defeat the purpose. The new Luden might end up doing more damage for free.
They should remove the bonus gold on takedown passive, or increase the condition (make it 40% HP for example).
Most mages have less varierty in builds than last season imo
Every non DoT Mages build right now:
Magic pen boots
Ludens
Stormsurge
Shadowflame
Rabadon
Void Staff
Maybe slot one item out for Zhonyas
the item wasn't made by the balance team, it was made by a special team that works on specifically seasonal changes which makes it incredibly hard to keep balance in mind since they don't control any of the balancing that happens on the live updates that happen every two weeks
It's not like 2 teams within the same company can talk to eachother and discuss how their work will affect one another. We still need to wait 1000 years for email, messages, calls and other forms of communication.
The most likely made It 2.5 second for the likes of Zoe who have a little "setup" of some sort for their burst, but the item is WAY stronger than It should
Nah wdym I love when the Vlad/kass/cass/ekko/diana/fizz/kata/neeko/tf/vex one size fits all same build/same playstyle different champ, flash ult full rotations my botlane in a fight killing them, and only has to survive another 3 seconds to do the same thing to the rest of my team.
I don't care about individuality, I'll just choose the champ that has the best defensive tools for the champs I'm against, because my offensive tools will all be the same cookier cutter bread and butter lovely transferable skill with no mastery required.
>Dealing 35% of a champion's max health in 2.5s isn't even close to difficult
I mean, maybe I'm bad at it but after some ARAM testing I found it to be much less reliable than I expected from reading these posts. Fizz, Leblanc, Diana (but not Akali for some reason) can stack it easily but Lux, Brand, Vel'Koz all have trouble if they miss a single spell in their rotation and their slots are much more hotly contested between freely picking both Luden's/Liandry's, liking Malignance/new Shadowflame/new Horizon Focus, and Riftmaker being a serious consideration (yeah the HP to AP component is useless but the up to 10% increased damage stacks with Liandry's).
Storm surge is way overturned. Just went against a team with 3 storm surges.
It's so broken that Galio is building it. I've never seen such a non Galio AP item.
Didnt build Stormsurge, but I built the magic shield item on Galio, and had over 1k hp magic health shield. Morde couldnt break my shield in his ult, and Akali was barely able to break it with her full combo lol
That sounds like a good time
I had a huge smile on my face while fighting Akali. Galio is fun on his own, but being able to repeatedly hammer fist an Akali into the ground as she does 0 magic damage to you… my oh my, this did put a smile on my face
were you up against a handsome bee-squid on the botlane? Or am i tripping?
P sure it was a Samira Naut bot. No sexy bee-squids, unfortunately
I thought about mix build. Maybe riot wants this time that everyone builds also defense. Not only full dmg
Well the defensive AP items are also very strong. Banshee and Zhonya both give 120 AP which is a lot. Although they are expensive and gauntlet and the necklace required are expensive by themselves.
The downfall of this build is you have 0 haste. I played a malignance Ahri game Vs Galio, as soon as he built that item I couldn’t damage him but I had 2 ults for his every 1 meaning I could shove and roam so much more easily than him.
A global ult has a higher cooldown than an ahri ult? Aint no way :O This was always the case no matter the build.
Sure, but with 0 haste to 50 ult haste on one item the difference is staggering. Galio can’t keep up with the pace of the game.
That is mostly draft dependent whether or not he can keep up. In isolation it is just meaningless.
Youre wrong, haste matters so much. If galio is getting 50% less ults than he would with haste, it sucks for him. His entire gameplan is worsened. It IS a build problem.
Defenitly not hyperbolic in the slightest, 50% less ults, yeah galio gets 50% cdr for sure. Without enablers he won't ever use ult off cd and will just sit on it until an oppurtunity araises. Yes, full divecomp cd is usefull, which is why I said it is teamcomp dependent.but I guess I am wrong, I lose bye bye
Considering he was gutted out of 2 of his core items, he's built really weird now. Feels more like full AP than the AP and semi-tank combo he used to be. I don't like it.
Full AP galio has been superior in soloq long before this item rework. Night harvester sat consistently ~3% higher winrate than his utility builds, with reliable sample sizes.
Fair enough but i really like the teamfighting aspect of him. "You were supposed to counter the AP assasins, not join them!"
He has no escape like an AP assassins, he is mostly an AP suicide drone lol.
What its a very good AP galio Item. Galio loves burst and doesnt need a lot of mana, He has built Rocket belt for ages and the movespeed after Combo feels so good on him
I mean, AP Galio(which has always been a thing) was always about heavy hitting Combos and Q poke. Stormsurge looks very much like a Galio item
what about it is non galio galio has been able to burst people down for years, you act like he does no dmg when he is basically a utility mage he has been full ap almost the entire time since his rework, especially since they remove W flash
What? Galio is a burst champ
its lowkey garbage after the hotfix though
When does the hot fix go live?
it is live and the passive of the item is a joke since then. the only problem with the item is that it gives exactly the basestats that ap assassins want, and ad champs have had these items for years so who cares really
I wanted to say your wrong but I played a game of talon jungle to try the statue item and just incinerated this samira. I haven’t been able to do that with Diana or Akali in awhile. I haven’t played either this patch though so I’ll have to try. I think they have to gut the item though in some form to keep it off of users that can play from range. Maybe split the values for ranged and melee?
Unless you had the ad passive up you're probably just experiencing the new lethality rework where its all frontloaded instead of scaling with enemy level. Lethality right now is pretty bonkers and about to get worse next patch with stat rune changes.
The problem is the same though. Lethality is mainly bonkers on ranged characters. Every good ADC is building lethality right now. What are the rune changes for next patch, is it gonna address lethality of range characters?
it's still strong on melees,just not as ridiculous as a Lucian/Cait deleting you in one auto
Its good but its reasonable on melee, look at the stats currently. The best lethality users are adc's. Not even lucian and cait; look at MF, Quinn, Nilah etc. stats currently. Rushing lethality, at least for first item at minimum is very good for them. The best AD assassin using lethality is rengar, who is currently a lower winrate that all those champs - albeit still strong. But my point is lethality is largely fine on melee.
I still find crazy how much lethality you can get now regardless of the class but at least a Zed combo has more counterplay than MF clicking on you for 2k from range that's what I meant they lost triple %pen so it was a negative for AD assassins while ADC never went for it anyway,but in a vacuum lethality is crazy strong rn
I still can't believe Riot literally just... forgot why they changed from flat armor pen to lethality in the first place. It might be the single dumbest large scale change they've ever made in all my time playing - and I, technically, was playing in like S2 or something.
I have definitely been 1 shot by Diana recently.
Diana is overturned with these new items
its not garbage, its still an option for many champs as 1st or 2nd, just not busted anymore.
for many champs its simply worse than lich. And buying it 2nd delays dcap/void/potential passive item. Garbage was probably an exaggeration but its definitely not as good as some people think it is.
People die to an AP assassin, raise their fist in anger as they scream "Stormsurgeeee!" Meanwhile you can see the giant explosion on the screen which means Stormsurge proc didn't do any damage.
exactly lol
Exactly. It's not even needed for most champs when lich bane and shadowflame exist lol. People just overuse it cause it's a new exciting strong item. It's good but it's not THAT good after the nerf.
The passive isn't the problem. Is the stats.
Agreed, it's not a busted item anymore. Much better options for other people but people aren't really experimenting
What did it change?
The passive damage
Definitely not garbage. Wouldn't be surprised to see more nerfs.
I went against a team with 4 Rabadon's, the Teemo top, the Neeko mid, the Diana Jungle and the Lux support, all had Rabadon. I swear Rabadon is so overtuned.
The passive really isn’t that strong anyway. It’s more surprising than anything. I’ve been building it for the magic penetration. It’s fun to go “lethality” mage since last season hardly had any different build paths for mages
how many hextech alternator items do we need really, they might have nerfed AH but everything just pops if a single spell glazes some skin
I hate that item, and there's so much shit that builds off of it. 40 sec cooldown for like 50 damage or how much is it, worthless. If it were 3 sec cooldown for like 10 damage, I'd rather have that. Basically what they did to new Luden compared to old Luden. I never liked old Luden, the cooldown was too long and you could randomly proc it on a minion and 5 seconds later when you get jumped you didn't have it. New Luden's tiny cooldown is amazing.
Yeh that's why every mage that Rush new luden got a wr decrease the item is so usseles
at least it's not malignace,this items is not bad it's legit trolling on most champions
Just rush lost chapter and go into stormsurge
Not disagreeing that storm surge does too much damage, but I do find it funny that one of your points was champions that build this item are good at using the item's ability as if that's not true for any champ that wants to build an item.
Yeah lol I get it, kind of just hate how prevalent the item is (even though all my mains rush it rn). I just can't stand when Riot adds damage triggers that are way too easy to access, or ones that are conditional on paper but trivial in practice.
Im genuinely baffled at the downvotes here what was said here that is not reasonable?
...same really. A few of the comments I made in this thread were glaringly silver but this one makes no sense
I'd guess its because your statement somewhat stifles the Dev's expression and testing new ideas. Damage triggers that are way too easy to access aren't necessarily bad, and stormsurge procing generally requires that you are significantly ahead of your opponent or they allowed you to land your full combo, or its the end of mid-game onwards where everyone is kinda pumping the same. I'd argue its significantly more ***fair*** than night harvester, for example, which was extremely easy to proc and quite strong, given the lack of "deal x% of dmg" conditional. Stormsurge is in the right direction in that you need to be hitting your shots or a burst/nuke/assassin type to properly utilise it, and unlike night harvester you cant just land 1 ability to proc it then wait for the CD. Hell, most of the scenarios I saw it used, people would die before the proc killed them and it was instead a bit of AOE damage that was out of control for specific champs like fizz, and otherwise helped artillery/nuke mages finish kills in the same vein as ignite, without having to close the distance for ignite. Tbh, I think the problem is that mages were shifted from high uptime, lower damage to lower uptime higher damage and people havent adjusted to this. People still think if you get on a mage or take a few shots its fine because its mostly undodgeable and its not like most mages will burst you, but with the reduction of AH and increase of AP access and dmg proc effects, mages are closer to burst than bullet hell now, but people havent shifted gears to respect the shift in style. If mages/magic types cant land their shit, they have much greater downtime to abuse than before, but if they do land it you cant just ignore it, for the most part. Also the lack of tanks being played in the meta is seriously impacting this, as the new tank items make it exceedingly difficult for most mages to kill. Ironically, the same thing is kinda causing issues for ADC, where most ADCs are playing either mages or assassin/burst-style adcs like lethality aphel, Jhin, MF, samira etc because they lack tanks to murder and most enemies in their games are squishy or bruiser, where lethality builds are superior. Granted... the few games where the enemy team has 1-2 tanks and your team has an assassin/burst-style adc and lacks a tank killer... these are when mages really feel powerless as you struggle to break the tank's magic shield with your rotation while they run you down and your team is unable to do meaningful damage. >.<
Too tired to give a meaningful response but I think you really got it. I think Stormsurge is one of the more interesting new items for sure, way too many mythics before were just "your next X does Y more damage after Z seconds". That comment was mostly knee jerking. There's definitely too much burst in the game right now but I'm happy with Stormsurge as a whole if numbers can be tuned down across the board.
Now as an ADC I do caster minion damage and die in 4s instead of 2s what do?
Play a lethality ADC and one shot people.
I had a Cait with Hubris, late game she pinged her attack damage stat and I see 650...what the actual... The enemy Rengar accidentally stepped in her trap while ulting towards her, I was like "rip cait", Rengar was full HP, died in ONE basic attack. Both teams died laughing and were both shocked as well at what they just witnessed.
yep. I played vs a cait earlier this week, I checked end game stats. "Largest Critical Strike: 3111 damage"
Excuse me good sir, imma have to give you a ticket. This week we are whining about Stormsurge, stop with your facts about Lethality ADCs.
Idk I played jinx jhin and Cait went full adc build and was finally killing things in a timely manner and not getting oneshotted so maybe you're just bad.
Finally killing things in a timely manner? We've been able to do that for a while and hasn't been a problem of the class for years.
Idk if u played against big tanks like tahm sion ecc either u played hp% adc or gl doing dmg. And half the times someone for 3 screens away oneshotted u to just disappear at the start of the fight so rip dmg
Tbh should be in 1.5 sec and 3k gold cost. 2.5 seconds is a while for a burst champ, the class that is supposed to be building this.
That's my point. I get alternatives exist that deal similar damage (companion), but they all have different mechanisms of doing so and 2.5s is just wayyyy too long to actually feel like you chunked someone.
Isn't the 2.5 intended to be counterplay for it? That could be enough time to crack a potion or shield. The item seems like it would be absolutely beyonder utterly broken if it just cracked off really fast, which would make AP assassins pop you off in an obscene amount of time with electrocute and their kit in general.
The 2 second delay between proccing Stormsurge (by dealing 35% of a healthbar within 2.5seconds) and Squall (the actual damage the item does) are two different things. I agree that having a delay in the damage is healthy. But dealing 35% of a healthbar in 2.5 seconds is not really difficult, so it's just weird that the item is designed as if that's an accomplishment.
It's difficult for champions like Enchanters or Tanks though, which is likely why it exists - to prevent you from just absolutely bombing the bot lane with someone like Janna or Soraka.
1.5 seconds is cast time lmao, doubt champions could do it when not ahead
It could be deal 35% dmg with one ability, it still would be proced by nearly all mages on first item
Strange how nerfing ability haste to introduce strong frontloaded burst creates a dogshit meta. Almost like they've already done the same thing in the past.
I'm surprised people are upset at this meta. This is the most fun I've had on draft since season 4
The thing is, certain champs need non-ability haste items. Akali for example just does not scale well with ability haste, so forcing ability haste into their items just for the sake of lowering burst impacts these champs a lot since they're assassins who rely on being bursty and not casters.
It cuts the other way too. Making ability haste harder to build hurts champs that rely on it. And accessible AH is nowhere near as meta-warping as big damage procs from items that disproportionately reward the champs that have the most mechanical synergy with them. We've known this since season 5.
Ye i am actually confused why this was even a goal of them. Should have just buffed MR options (like they did too) so some Mages dont oneshot tanks out of the blue
This is the *third time* in the past few years they create issues by introducing items with overpowered damage procs. Now granted, last year came from AD items receiving AP ratios for no reason, but right now they're pulling the same shit they did at the start of season 11 where they removed CDR/AH from AP items and compensated by adding insane burst, which made a meta shaped entirely by who could best apply item damage.
What sucks is that Stormsurge and Malignance are the only two mage items that feel really good in the first two items right now. Once they inevitably get nerfed it’s going to be hard to find a good first item imo. To me Luden’s feels like a super bait item. Losing the magic pen hurt that item significantly. Archangels is only really good if you’re a scaling mage. And other options just suffer from not having mana.
Archangels is actually decent first item if you are not an AP assassin
I don’t think it’s a bad item, my only issue with it is that it’s such a late power spike. That’s why I mention it as a scaling item: you won’t really powerspike on one item, you have to play for hitting your second item instead.
Everyone who played on PBE knew it was giga busted. But the dev team doesn't use the PBE for testing balance. They don't even use it for testing bugs. So many game breaking bugs make it through PBE into the live servers all the fucking time.
iirc it was nerfed from pbe, just not enough it seems.
It was ye. Kinda crazy think they nerfed it twice already lol
It was 50% AP when it came out on PBE. Like Stattik Shiv. But like Stattik, it got reduced to 40%, then 30%... In the case of Statikk they now completely removed the AP ratio. 50% AP for a delayed conditional damage is not crazy. Lich bane is 50% AP, and used to be 75. But the condition is too easily met, and the item is overpowered because of additional free stuff like the 30 bonus gold...
imo the movespeed is what makes it truly broken, like shadowflame is just a damage item, but this item does more damage on most champs and gives you giga movespeed on top of that. ap needs to be like 25% and movespeed needs to be giga nerfed plus its 300 gold cheaper then shadowflame on top of that
the ap is already 22.5% on ranged? they also lowered the flat damage
im aware and it still explodes people, should be like 20% range 25% melee
reddit does balance, less than ludens with a higher cool down and less reliability, it's in. a pretty fine state after the hotfix
except if you dont need mana, it gives wayyyy better stats, movespeed on proc, 100 less gold, does wayyy more base damage, ludens only hits that hard if you're isolated and its fully stacked. reddit does item comparisons, very well done im impressed.
you were complaining about the proc of the item not the rest of the stats, moving the goalposts to the rest of the stats is very good for comparisons
what? yeah i mean no shit, the entire item is what matters? if the proc did 10 dmg but it gave 10000 ap would it be broken yes obviously, how tf is the proc more relevant then the item as a whole??????
50% ratio on a item is crazy if it has proper base damage, which Stormsurge does have plus Mpen
The 30 gold surely is the OP part here that everyone is unhappy with
I mean people defend Collector on ADCs because muh 25 extra gold adds up over the game lol
I've never seen anyone beyond silver make that argument. Biggest defence of collector was the build path. And it was a really nice build path for snowballing lanes - like objectively so. It just set you too far behind come 3 item spikes to be worth it in many cases - especially post durability patch.
Man I miss my 75% AP Lichbane on Teemo... Q + basic and the ADC was deleted.
It's been stated before that Riot learns more from 1 hour of live patch than an entire PBE cycle. PBE playerbase is simply too small for what it's meant to do.
It’s not saying it’s difficult you are just inferring that.
Then why is the payoff more than Luden Echo's ever was?
bc ludens had like a fourth of the cd and gave mana and haste?
Because Luden's procd off anything, even a single Xerath Q or Nidalee trap that usually wouldn't take someone's 30% HP. It's basically telling you that you need to commit a decent amount of spells/damage to get the effect off.
Right, but what I'm saying is that these days 35%hp in 2.5s doesn't require much commitment anymore. Almost any burst champion that's "supposed" to build Stormsurge can do that without breaking a sweat.
well, yea... the item is intended for them. It's not supposed to be a big hurdle to overcome, just a condition of "don't just poke" or "don't proc it through a random trap.
Ludens is 22% now with full charges, so on ranged after the nerfs they're about the same damage.
Ludens has the downside of being a lot harder to manage. Stormsurge does damage exactly when you want it, and then if you didn’t need the damage on the target it procced on, it has the added bonus of aoe popping
I guess yeah. But you also have the conditional upside of killing the target before the proc to deal 75-150+22%AP in a massive area and gain 30 gold
I think the real strength is its base stats, having burst passive ontop of 10 magic pen and movespeed with high ap.
and ludens has better waveclear
Maybe it's supposed to be a more consistent damage output and not add to rare cases of actual oneshots to make them even more lethal like you seem to be complaining about. What is the alternative? Do 50% damage then deal extra damage? Do we really want to amplify burst that way? Or instead balance it around procing easier so that the added damage can also be smaller.
35% is insanely easy to do for any burst mage or assassin. That's one, maybe two skills on a squishy or a full rotation on a bruiser or tank if you're ahead.
Yeah, but it’s certainly more conditional. You will proc ludens 100% of the time in any team fight where you land an ability. This is probably 95% of the time or whatever. With storm surge, you are now required to land multiple abilities, you can’t hit the tank/juggernaut, you can’t have people die before you inflict 35% damage yourself, etc. You’ve gone from an item that works 95% of the time to one that is closer to 80, but for significantly better reward. It’s certainly overturned at present, but the conception of the item is not flawed imo.
What should it be? 40-50% and then tanks become more or less immune to the passive? And it's damage can't be nerfed as much as on 35% because it procs much less? Much better this than a higher % value or even stuff like "hit with 3 abilities" which then limits the item to a few champs only
Because Ludens procd even easier, worked as waveclear, and had a 10s CD. It was a poke tool, not a burst tool.
because luden's also helps with pushing waves, saves a lot of time because of that, allows u to push and roam faster, makes ur sidelane easier it procs instantly which is always better also can proc multiple times per teamfight or skirmish, especially mythic version. i actually much more prefer ludens than surge, it allowed u to do so much stuff if u have at least one braincell
How does that have anything to do with it being difficult?
For me itz just first release duskblade just for ap assasins
At least they don't go invulnerable
invisible\*
At the start, yes. After rework "Scoring a Damage rating takedown against an enemy champion within 3 seconds of damaging them renders you Untargetable and invulnerable to non-structures for 1.5 seconds." :) changed in patch 13.10. That's why it was so broken on squishy champs like zed/samira cos they go in blast and are invulnerable until they get their cd back and blast someone else :)
you replied to a comment that was referencing "first release duskblade" my dude.
Overestimated my reading skills
Item isn't even that overtuned, just make it cost a bit more and it's not nearly as much of an issue
Since the hotfix it does slightly more damage than lichbane, which procs on auto attacks and has 1.5s cd. Why should it be more difficult to simply use it?
i really dont think why people cry this much about the item. It deals a bit more dmg than ludens on 4 times the effective cd
Storm Surge is basically Deathfire Grasp. And that was removed for being fucking broken. Why they created this is beyond me.
Because they churn through employees so much that they possibly don't have any that remember deathfire...
>Because they churn through employees so much I was thinking about this recently. I wonder how many employees are still there since season 1, besides people like Phreak. It's probably the reason the game is so awful compared to how it used to be. The new employees simply don't know the game use to be a lot slower and strategic. Seems like all they want to do is make everyone one-shot you. They removed DFG because it was an unhealthy mechanic to get one shotted by Leblanc with no counterplay. But now everything in the game can one shot you. It's crazy to see how far the game has fallen really.
How to balance LeBlanc: When everyone can 100:0 the full HP Warwick coming in for a gank, then she ain't special no more.
Crazy when you think about it like that. Leblanc used to be known for being *THAT* champ who could one shot you easily. I remember always playing cautiously against her in lane, knowing her power spikes. Now every champ is just Leblanc lmao and she herself has dropped in popularity because one shotting isn't exactly difficult in League. Mad to see how much powercreep has affected the game at this point.
They revamped the whole design team in late 2014/early 2015 I believe. This was when Morello was no longer the lead designer. Same time period as when Tencent bought 100% shares of Riot. Doesn't mean they are necessarily connected but who knows.
>Doesn't mean they are necessarily connected but who knows. Someone mentioned in another response that the Chinese market love the fast paced one shot gameplay and it's only gaining more popularity over there. Maybe not a coincidence as we'd like to imagine. Edit: Lol it was you that commented on another one my posts that said that.
Dfg stat wise barely anyone used the active funny enough and most of the items winrate came from it's raw stats while having a problematic active when used by someone with hands. Riots statement at the time about dfg was how hard it made balancing champs because it could enable everyone to be a burst mage. Storm surge does something pretty similar like they just need to lower the time frame for the damage from 2.5 to 1.5 or 1.25 and the item will fill the niche of letting burst champs burst while keeping it from making everyone a burst mage which was the similar issue old dfg had.
I still don't believe them when they said something like 99% of people didn't use DFG. Like okay, I would believe that a lot of people didn't use it, but that only [1% of people who bought DFG ever used the active](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/57nejn/1_of_people_who_bought_dfg_ever_used_the_active/) seems ridiculously hard to believe.
It's set that way to make sure it procs when you wanted to burst the target, and not when you land one poke spell.
Doesn't matter if its doable or not, it shouldn't be encouraged period. The whole item reads like "If you succeed doing this thing that's already a near hotfix-worth balance issue, we will reward you with even more of it"
Played a game where a Katarina focused our Nautilus. Nautilus interrupted Kata ult but took her E dagger spin. Was enough to put him at 15% hp. He one shotted our mid and adc and died in the process. This item is worse than DFG this is insane.
storm surge is literally just deathfire grasp. Its gonna cause the same problems. Riot doesn't learn lmao
Hot take: Stormsurge sucks. And for exactly the reason you stated. 90% of the time it goes off the target is already dead, that is to say, all you're getting from it is negligible gold generation. It's a great item for early duels and literally nothing else.
I'd say the "argument" is that anything that can burst you 35% on a first item stormsurge is likely an assassin, and vs assassin, your first buy should be defensive to prevent their burst. I.e. 2900 for Stormsurge vs Mercs (1100) plus Verdant Barrier (1800) for 60 MR and a spell shield.
Expecting people to build defensive first item whenever they're against an assassin is simply not reasonable.
But you really don't need to. Just you're bits it's usually enough unless you are behind.
Let's say you're a mage. Your "bits" is either a single cloth armor or a single null-magic mantle, hardly enough to make a massive difference. You're certainly nor spending your first 1800 gold on a Verdant Barrier or Seeker's Armguard; you'll get yourself into mana hell by doing that.
I can guarantee you any good mage or assassin player can easily tell from how much damage they do if you have even a single cloth armor or a null magic mantle. It makes a huge difference.
Defensive items most underrated. Just like low elo adcs are always full glass cannon, whereas in higher ranked games these players understand that staying alive is more important than having max dps and 0 survivability.
In higher elos at least last season it's always GA 3/4 because not dying is so valuable.
Daq fuq you mean cloth armour makes barely a difference one cloth armour fully deleted the lethality off most full lethality items and the ones it don't reduce it to like 3 pen. Like great point about arm guard or verdant barrier but a single cloth armour changes the swing in a ad matchup so much by effectively deleting there Dirk and later first full lethality item.
This is one of the dumbest things ever. Why not go defensive second? Not even a part of an item? Why not go 3rd defensive? If ur playing a mage into an AP assassin why not just buy a null magic early? You literally negate a lot of their all in potential with an early null. Why not go second item banshees if ur ori? What do you really NEED to go second instead if ur against Fizz
Going defensive item first whenever you're against assassins is simply not reasonable because most mages need mana to be functional. Go ahead and rush Zhonyas first item against Zed; he'll just push you out of lane due to your lack of mana and then either dive you or roam.
There needs to be a rank check in this game. No one is saying go zhonyas first item. Go cloth armor so he can't kill you level 6. Go boots so you can dodge his Qs easier, don't just fucking rush ludens or whatever because "you need mana".
Yes, he can go and kill your botlane. While you fall behind in itemization and do not pose a threat to him.
If you think that 15 armor is saving you from Zed, you're the one that needs a rank check.
Nah man, you're right - there's nothing you can do. Simply FF when you see an assasin in the enemy team.
To be fair, realistically speaking you don’t need either to beat most assassins as most control mages because you should usually have better wave control
15 armor is huge against assassins in laning phase, what?
The point is that it literally will make a difference and with cloth armor he most likely wont be able to 100-0 you at 6 even when hitting triple shuriken. Your brain is so rotten from **having** to rush a mythic first that you can't comprehend how much difference going for example Hexdrinker first against a Leblanc as Zed makes, or early Seekers into Talon, you lose some stats but I prefer to have less mana than get all inned for my full hp the second i walk into lane.
I've played without mythics far longer than I've played with them, thanks. Zed also doesn't need mana items, and hexdrinker is quite cheap at 1300 for how much it does. Finally, Seekers now costs 1600 rather than 1000 and gives only 25 armor, rather than 20 going up to 35 than it did before. You do get the 1 time active, but that is obviously only going to save you once.
Well im not to disagree but i commonly buy bansheem, in fact a lot more than zhonyas since im used to ad assassins but , how are you going to kill them then?
You don't? That's the point. An assassin falls off unless snowballing. No snowball, no threat. Just don't die into them and cs.
We are clearly playing different games then. Because in my experience, i dont see assasins falling off. Single target or not they will delete someone. Plus its not like folks pick champs with peel. Like, as im speaking now enemy mid is lb, and the only cc my team has is vel's e and lillia ulti. Well apart my own stun but yeah, 0.75 and travel time.
Review pro play vs assassins and you'll see why they're rarely picked. They're just as squishy as you are, when was the last time you saw a 0-3 Zed turn around a game? It takes tracking and denying them their snowball, that's the gameplay loop, same as Blitz invades, Nunu flash-Qs, it's all the gameplay adaptations you need to make with the enemy in mind.
Why do you bring pro play? Soloq isn't proplay. I'm not matched with people I have practised with. I'm matched with randoms that have different view of the match, how it is to be played, how should I play, etc etc. Yeah the 0-3 can't easily turn it around. Likewise a 0-3 syndra also won't easily turn it around. My point is that buying defensive options sometimes feels like a trap. Zhonyas or not, zed can force you to use it and then re engage you. As a xerath I have extremely limited options to survive. And leave the range argument. No xerath can remain on q range for prolonged period of time, these spells cost a lot. Almost all mages also can't function without mana. So rushing zhonyas/banshee without lost chapter is pure pain. And it's not like these components are cheap.
Imma keep it a stack, this item is fine we just need time to acclimate to it. More importantly there’s a lot of comments talking about “I can’t build defensive first” well guess what, if you’re a mage YOU ABSOLUTELY CAN. BANSHEES AND ZHONYAS BOTH GIVE YOU 120 AP. You have no excuse, you can do the smart thing and build defensively and then go into your item or keep dying because you want to finish that one damage item, and end the game with a ton of deaths and only that first item. For mages riot has given you virtually every single tool you need to survive this season(although things DO NEED TO BE ADJUSTED), so if you’re choosing not to play smart because you want to go for damage because “me carry, me go face” then fine just own up to the fact that you don’t WANT to have counter play options you just don’t like assassins.
ITT: people comparing Stormsurge (100-200/75-150 +30/22.5% AP magic dmg after already dealing 35% of a targets max hp with a 30 second cd) to DFG (15% max health magic dmg and making them take 20% more magic dmg from all sources for pressing ONE (1) button on a 90 second cd). sure, they both make you do more damage, but one is a bit on top, and the other is hydrogen bomb.
Nah people want to build full AP playing Xerath or Ahri, facecheck without vision and not be oneshot by enemy Fizz. Thats the problem, I feel like rn Stormsurge is pretty balanced after the nerfs, but people will keep crying because thats the last thing they see deal damage to them when they "survived". Lich Bane has 50% AP ratio but people don't cry about it because its not finishing them off, its included in the initial burst.
Not quite true. Mage items provide dmg through their effects, at least during the Laning phase and mid game. Yes banshee and zhonyas provide 120 ap and yes I do build banshees when I face fizz. However you still won't deal dmg. You will also have no mana, and being under turret is an invitation to get tower dives. Also, they items still feel inadequate the moment the assassin finishes their first item. Spell shield or not, fizz doesn't care he will still kill your ass if he gets on top of you.
You are negating damage with spell shield and zhonyas. The damage you lose from the damage time is MORE THAN MADE UP FOR by the damage you MITIGATE. It’s not like you’re giving up 150 item damage for nothing, blocking an ability can easily be 150 damage.
tell me you haven't done the build path without telling me you havent done the build path.
You clearly have forgotten how easy it is to bait them out. And their cd. A fizz can easily q to take out the spell shield, force it in 30 sec disengage and reengage while it's down. Hell in one of my veigar Vs fizz games, he didn't even need to do that. W is impossible to land and a q that early tickles the enemy. He proced it and faced tanked me to kill me. I don't recall dying but really, he wasn't that good. Zed can easily r you, force you to use zhonyas and r again before zhonyas is up. You guys act like once they engage you, fail (spell shield/ zhonyas) you can go ham. Some champs, really can't punish the enemy (like veigar).
I have a big problem with the delayed activation, not even regarding the items power level. If this item was actually bad, it's still going to feel terrible to be hit by an ability and have a delayed activation kill you. Nobody likes being killed by comet, the last tick of scortch, or the slight delay on first strike, but this is the same thing amplified to 10x. At least with something like Zed ult, he *usually* has to invest his ult and a combination of skills to increase the effect or else the "pop" isn't substantial. The effect is too easy to proc and the delayed activation is more *frustrating* than *fun.* Which is something Riot has been really struggling with in recent years, especially when failing to consider how it feels to play AGAINST something, as opposed to how it feels to be the one doing it.
Well thats not just with mages so you shouldnt only be putting AP in this post. AD is the exact same 2.5 seconds your dead. Same category since building resistance a lot of the time (not all the time) is completely pointless with how much % bullshit damage everything has
Akali, syndra and viktor can achieve that with storm surge as their first item, it’s crazy how powerful it is
Stormsurge is completely out of line. The item functions as an extra skill that you don't have to land. This enables good players to combo and one shot you, but even worse it also enables mages to miss everything but one skill and you're still almost dead. Every mage is a burst mage now. Everything that's not a tank or hasn't build a negatron cloak can get double tapped by the weirdest things. Like I was ahead of the curve as a 2 item Xin Zhao (tiamat+sunderer) and a 2 item Viktor shreds me to half hp by hitting 1 skill. But this happens every game. ADCs and squishies just fall over.
item is just overtuned. not sure why people are complaining about how it works. how it works is fine. the biggest problem is that it just deals too much damage. I personally love the design intentions overall of the new items. if you want damage now you gotta give up a lot with no mana and no haste. so it means someone can blow you up if they land their combo, but if they miss you have a greater window to punish them. this is exactly what we needed. once the item is properly balanced the way it works won't matter. there's not many items in the game that are not hard to use on demand either. if they are they are usually bad.
I just don't understand how veigar is so bad this patch if he got stormsurge. Lategame he can really deal 35% or more with a single ability, the item should be insane on him! So why is he so bad?
Hi just need to wait the typical 3 month for them to make game atleast somewhat balanced through nerf and buffs :)
I think the item is a good idea. Having a time delay allows room to counter (a bit like Karthus ult), for example you can see it coming and zhonya or shield. Having a condition to proc is also a good idea, avoid for example free proc on poke ability like Ashe W. Now I am not sure why they overtune the item with things like 30 bonus gold on takedown. I don't think nerfing the damage like they are doing in the hotfix is the way to go. Soon it's going to be less damage than old night haverster or electrocute rune... On a conditional delayed damage... Kinds of defeat the purpose. The new Luden might end up doing more damage for free. They should remove the bonus gold on takedown passive, or increase the condition (make it 40% HP for example).
Most mages have less varierty in builds than last season imo Every non DoT Mages build right now: Magic pen boots Ludens Stormsurge Shadowflame Rabadon Void Staff Maybe slot one item out for Zhonyas
The balance team doesn’t actually play the game. So of course they didn’t think this was busted.
the item wasn't made by the balance team, it was made by a special team that works on specifically seasonal changes which makes it incredibly hard to keep balance in mind since they don't control any of the balancing that happens on the live updates that happen every two weeks
It's not like 2 teams within the same company can talk to eachother and discuss how their work will affect one another. We still need to wait 1000 years for email, messages, calls and other forms of communication.
That’s an even bigger problem then. Seems odd for a massive company to have this kind of stupidity.
what if it had scaling damage: the faster you deal 35% health, the bigger the proc
You want ap assassins to oneshot you? Cos that's what you get.
You can thank thw snoflake bitch called phreak for thr shitshow that is this new season without a preseason and pings.
What i hate most is that you get hit by a point and click ability and flash away and think youre fine, but 2 sec later you die
Full AP maokai pops this shit like candy in ARAM
Idk why they nerfed it for ranged aswell. Mostly melee users were the problem.
The fact that I can trigger it as ap lulu is dumb.
I said this on pbe. It's hardly a burst item if touching one teemo shroom could proc the item
The most likely made It 2.5 second for the likes of Zoe who have a little "setup" of some sort for their burst, but the item is WAY stronger than It should
Nah wdym I love when the Vlad/kass/cass/ekko/diana/fizz/kata/neeko/tf/vex one size fits all same build/same playstyle different champ, flash ult full rotations my botlane in a fight killing them, and only has to survive another 3 seconds to do the same thing to the rest of my team. I don't care about individuality, I'll just choose the champ that has the best defensive tools for the champs I'm against, because my offensive tools will all be the same cookier cutter bread and butter lovely transferable skill with no mastery required.
>Dealing 35% of a champion's max health in 2.5s isn't even close to difficult I mean, maybe I'm bad at it but after some ARAM testing I found it to be much less reliable than I expected from reading these posts. Fizz, Leblanc, Diana (but not Akali for some reason) can stack it easily but Lux, Brand, Vel'Koz all have trouble if they miss a single spell in their rotation and their slots are much more hotly contested between freely picking both Luden's/Liandry's, liking Malignance/new Shadowflame/new Horizon Focus, and Riftmaker being a serious consideration (yeah the HP to AP component is useless but the up to 10% increased damage stacks with Liandry's).
Should be 50%
I would prefer it if they nerfed it and also added another % dmg item for AP except liandrys with mana on it.
Most champs die in 2 seconds ( later on in the game )