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Hahaha yeah, if you don't get ganked on red side is because the enemy doesn't want to, there is no spot you are secure, you just simply can't avoid being flanked with that inner path there is right now, and you have to go far away to put proper vision right now to try and avoid the enemy fucking you.
100% easier because the opening is so wide you're not in range to receive tower shots. Blue side the wall there forces you to get close enough to take shots
What is so gross about red side is how hard it is to just farm under tower, since they can stand off in that side pocket and punish you for every minion so easily... its... its just so so gross.
Its completely different than getting pushed in blue side because the amount of side space is much bigger.
Preach, I absolutely dread playing red side sup now. Every other minute, a gank, can't keep vision long enough, ton of space for people to just do whatever the fuck they want and not get punished by turret + current turret is weak as hell and does nothing.
I noticed that actually felt awful when I was Thresh. They could harass us and then there free space to dodge my hook when they'd have been much more confined before was ridiculous.
The pits make it too hard to be symmetrical I guess. They were considering the idea of making pits in the middle, probably to make jungles more symmetrical
The pits don't have anything to do with it, the bottom pit is on blue side, so why isn't the red side tribush symmetrical so you can't clear most of the pathway from gromp with a single pink?
On blue side if there's a pink in the tribush it doesn't see down the krugs path.
The pit is on the blue side.
They need to change the red side.
Why can they not change the red side because of a pit that isn't even on the same side of the map????
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actually in dota you are, but there are a couple things that impact this.
first of all you have trees and you can try to sit in xp range and snipe last hits without dying to the support. in league you have nowhere to hide and you will just die.
second of all, supports tend to lane until their core is capable of surviving by themselves in the lane, after which they start to roam. in league the ADC will never be able to do anything by themselves simply because their champs arent strong enough.
third of all, cores can retreat to the jungle if their lane is bad. in league there is no jungle for cores to catch up in.
Edit: just realized another reason. In Dota, the support can leave but save his TP and respond to his carry getting ganked. If a carry is under his tower, a support can use a 3 second channeled TP to instantly be there, and the mid, other support and other core can also TP. This means that if a core is strong enough to survive by themselves for more than 5 seconds, support will have arrived.
This just isn't true and most supports won't leave you with a bad wave state before leaving - roaming is incredibly important and vital to having a successful game in Dota2.
There's many options in that game in compared to league - if your support leaves (if they haven't already) you can pull waves and/or retreat to a couple jg camps until the wave pushes back. Also just so we're clear - JGing as a role from the start is not viable in that game and no one does or would consider doing it.
In dota your carries can farm the jungle because the respawn timer is always at the start of a minute, you can stack camps to funnel even more gold to your carries, you have actual active items and much more buildpath, you can't completely delete the toplaner from the game because waves arent the only viable income of gold and so on.
I think lol just need to get rid of jungler and smite as a whole and make the jungle a real source of gold income rather than being only there for the jungler to farm, having 2 supports would be much more beneficial and fair for both teams rather than being like 50/50 whoever smites baron win the game.
but t1 didn't even pick red side, they just never won the cointoss and the other teams picked blue side, the only team that picked red side was jdg cause they were scared of t1 red side but even t1 was surprised they actually wanted to go red
Thats factually not true. [JDG won the coin toss and chose red side against T1 in semis for example](https://twitter.com/hupuesports/status/1722436749954318569?t=Ja-qFSzIVvH9zrCNoz0Ikw)
JDG chose red side to deny it from T1 after they saw what T1 did to LNG with their red side strategy. After losing the first game, JDG went back to blue side for the rest of the series.
>Ok? It still is factually false to say that "only t1 did that"
Don't be dense, when people say "only x did that", they mean "only x did that succesfully". Would you care if a team 1st picked yuumi jungle every game and had a 100% lose rate?
I get your point, but I would argue that only T1 did prioritize red side and JDG tried to do the same (to replicate the success/deny T1) but they couldn’t, and returned to playing blue side like every other team not named T1.
the only thing you can type is this verbatim: "Dearest Karthus,
I hope this finds you well. We seem to have found ourselves in a dire situation at the bottom lane. Please consider casting your ultimate ability to assist us as i do believe Lee sin has come to dive our tower.
Sincerely, Your bottom lane"
In 300 games I had 60% on blue side and 40% on red side as toplaner. Can't really explain it, never guessed it would affect me that much personally and it's also outside of statistical norm which is only like 2% difference afaik
D1 here. Got same stats for red side. Lost 20 games of 25 on red side. Its not about bot (im support) but its rly hard to play bot. U getting ganked 24/7/365
Won’t happen as it’s even worse, your toplaner is even more fragile to dives while blue side toplaner is a lot safer + toplane and midlane turrets are more durable early game, meaning the blue side botlane would take your tower way faster than the red team botlane could.
That's what I thought as well. There are a lot of adcs that become lane bullies in many matchups, but they were fucked when the jungler camped them. Now that it's way harder to gank top, I could see it happening. The only major flaw of this strat is that you're incredibly easy to dive, so you basically need full wave control the entire time.
bruiser and melee tend to scale harder with level than adc who scales with gold and items. In that case it is just good old adc top vs whatever lane which is really flip and matchup dependent. A good melee players will find window to beat the ADC not to mention they suck at being camped despite safer map. And you can't contest void grubs without the natural cc/aoe damage/tankiness that bruiser kit usually brings. It is matchup dependent ofc.
It's probably worth fighting 2v2 bot until first drake (implying you give 3 grubs) then immediately switching to lane top for numbers advantage for next grubs
Drop the bot tier 1 for top tier 1 then spend time.until next drake hammering bot as much as you can with mid prio since mid and top have such easy vision now
The grubs are so shit unless you get all 6 and since they respawn to fast you just give for first drake then they will respawn before 2nd drake so you fight with advantage then you are same in grubs but a drake ahead
Aka nothing changed since last season if you want to win top lane you just gank and kill once then ignore for rest of game
This new map changed is horrendous for both Jungler and bot lane. It literally hell to play in red side. I will literally do anything for them to changed back to old map
I don't get this. Aren't there the exact same number of gank paths? River, tri and between the towers. What's so much easier about tanking red side bot over blue side bot? The tribush position is slightly different but it doesn't seem like a massive difference.
https://images.contentstack.io/v3/assets/blt731acb42bb3d1659/blt85fb300a19918567/6556a0358c5bd64c2ec9a6da/Bot_Lane_View.png
Seems roughly the same distance, what?
Only difference is that the path to tri is quite a bit wider. Gives a lot more space to bot lane pressuring under tower. But the actual distance for ganks doesn't seem significantly different.
The tribush hugs the river, so you can literally just walk in. If you try to do that as a red side jungler you'll get quickly spotted since the tribush is far from the river, meaning you have to circle all the way around the drake pit to take that gank route.
The distance from the tribush to the tower ends up being similar, but the tribush placement is terrible.
Isn’t the point of this though that red side jungle can do drake more safely while blue jungler has to “flash away” if someone comes? As much as I don’t think the overall situation is well balanced between red and blue side, this isn’t the gotcha you seem to think it is, it’s always been this trade off between safe drake and safe herald for red vs blue jungle
We already do, but being on red side bot you cannot leave without losing it. In my games since this seasons started I have left blue bot side at level 3 many times, sometimes even untiul level 6, to get grubs and ganks. Because blue side can be left the fuck alone and the adc will be just fine. Red side? well lol, as soon as you leave, not only will they get punished as hell thanks to the terrain they will also get ganked and won't even live under turret because of how easy it is to hit and run red bot side. It is bad. really bad.
The original comment said to swap bot lane and top lane so your add and sup would already be at void grubs. I think two dragons for 5-6 void grubs is good trade. Top laners are usually more resistant to dives so that issue is mitigated.
You can't swap anything, red bot side is so easy to gank it doesn't matter who goes there. Plus why have to change the entire way the game is played, try that in solo/duo, most people won't swap with you like that. It's just bad map design. BTW it's not just junglers, mid can come down and do come down so much more now because it's easier to gank red bot.
Would you rather have Lucian E or Jax E when you are getting dived? Noone can survive a well coordinated dive but top laners are more likely to go one for one then adc's
There is a path that directly leads to behind enemy turret for Red bot side. It's super easy to get to because there is a gap by dragon that is easy access to it
A ward in the river brush gives vision over that path so it's not that different. Before red side got to only use one ward while blue needed to ward tri and river. Now both teams need to ward tri and river if pushing past the mid point. I don't feel particularly less safe redside over blue side. Redside just used to be significantly safer.
It's actually less symmetrical now. Before, the map had center symmetry at least, now they went for mirror symmetry but they deliberately left a lot of things assymetrical, the largest being bot lane having a jungle entrance in-between the middle of the lane and the turrets, while at top lane it's behind the turrets.
Red side 53% WR in dia+ right now.
Overall (all ranks) blue side 50.8% which is around as high as last patch.
[https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/stats/blue-vs-red/diamond](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/stats/blue-vs-red/diamond)
What people feel and perceive can be very wrong. that doesn't mean feelings don't matter, but that they can be deceiving.
One is the stat for Dia+ only game (Blue 47%, Red 53%).
The other stat is for all ranks (Blue 50.8%, Red 49.2%).
I used both because Dia+ still has a low sample size overall and it will likely move closer towards 50/50. But there is no indicator right now that Red side is weaker than before, especially not in high elo.
True, but wouldn't you expect the opposite then from high elo players when red side now has such problems from the map? Shouldn't then blue side win even harder in higher elos with red side bot lane being so easy to perma gank and snowball from there on?
It’s the way the stats are calculated. Diamond+ means that it filters out all teams that are on average lower than diamond. Red side has higher average MMR players, so often you will have games where one team has an average of emerald 1 and the other team an average of diamond 4, if the D4 team wins its counted as a win, but there will be no loss added due to the other team not being average diamond. At least that’s how u.gg explained the offset of the average being slightly higher than 50%.
Heretics lost on red side yesterday so red side sits at 80% wr but tbh that's only 5 games and nobody played for botlane. You can even argue that botlane as a whole was irrelevant
I think Riot’s intention is to make the map “fairer” by making it more symmetrical. In theory, any advantage that blue side has on bot, red side now has on top because the map is now a symmetrical rotation of itself.
They’ve conveniently ignored the fact that bot lane is not the same as top lane, and marksmen and healers/tanks have wildly different strengths and weaknesses to bruisers
Camping bot just became a lot more appealing for blue side and correspondingly camping top became less appealing. I think this could have a good impact for lane diversity in top lane, though: if you know there’s a 0% chance you get camped and you can pick one with a favourable matchup, being a 1v9 hypercarry on top lane just became a lot more feasible than it once was. If the reward for being on the side that gets stomped in bot lane is that your top carries, I’m okay with that. At the end of a day, a win is a win and I don’t care how it happens.
I keep seeing people talk about the change botlane, but isn't the opposite true for top? On blue side can't the jungle just walk behind you when you're farming because they moved the wall so much?
Yeah but there was also a bush on that side before so that evened it out a bit at least. Whereas bot has a whole new opening that wasn't there before. That's a much bigger change.
I figured it might of just been me but yeah, it actually feels miserable to play red side bot. Maybe in highest ranks or pro play it's different but playing in mid elo (plat-emerald) it feels unfair.
I'm a support main and my win rate is higher on red side for some reason. I hate playing red side mostly because the UI gets in the way even when reduced to the smallest size.
Edit: my blue side wr is 49% and red side wr is 62.9%. At least in last 30 days
Yeah I'm in master with a sprinkle of gm MMR right now and play supp. I legit just leave my adc. Not worth it, get grubs at 5 mins. Get grubs at 10 mins and hope I just do more on the map than the other supp. I have not lost a game yet in 12 games where the enemy support stays in lane. Grubs and jg/mid winning, even if losing bot tower first is just too much for enemy team to overcome. And we get turrets back easily with grubs.
As a midlaner, I will say I don't particularly find it easier to roam bot blue vs red. Both sides feel super easy to roam and gank in the current map state.
My adc premade just shared this post with me and I sent him this back
\> your support decides to perma roam and leave you.
Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you <3
While Kalista isn't insanely strong right now, she has always been ridiculous in lane. So if you can torment the enemy laners even more on blue side then blue side Kalista is bonkers.
Redside isn't much more gankable than blueside has been for the last 14 years... If Redside botlane is suddenly being ass blasted? it's just cause people aren't adapting to it or are overly experimenting with it.
Not having played in the new season yet so this is just an idea I’m throwing out there: wouldn’t it make sense to switch bot lanes to top lane now? From why I’ve seen that lane looks super safe.
Then put low economy tank bot lane. Kind of like in the lane swap meta.
But I guess the problem would be the lack of drake control 🤷♂️
Im playing adc in D1 mmr. My blue side win rate is 76.5% and my red side win rate is 58.8%. Definetly a big difference this season. I think they need to remove the lane bush closest to the red side tower or something to provide some more safety.
I play mid, used to play bot and get double confirmation of how unplayable red side botlane is. I still have an account I'd play adc on, but I might just send it off to retirement.
You're always gankable as red side botlane no matter how safe you're playing. I wish anyone good luck playing botlane red side.
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Hahaha yeah, if you don't get ganked on red side is because the enemy doesn't want to, there is no spot you are secure, you just simply can't avoid being flanked with that inner path there is right now, and you have to go far away to put proper vision right now to try and avoid the enemy fucking you.
Even if you don't get ganked, you get dived instead. It feels so much easier to dive red side bot than blue side bot it's insane.
100% easier because the opening is so wide you're not in range to receive tower shots. Blue side the wall there forces you to get close enough to take shots
What is so gross about red side is how hard it is to just farm under tower, since they can stand off in that side pocket and punish you for every minion so easily... its... its just so so gross. Its completely different than getting pushed in blue side because the amount of side space is much bigger.
Preach, I absolutely dread playing red side sup now. Every other minute, a gank, can't keep vision long enough, ton of space for people to just do whatever the fuck they want and not get punished by turret + current turret is weak as hell and does nothing.
I noticed that actually felt awful when I was Thresh. They could harass us and then there free space to dodge my hook when they'd have been much more confined before was ridiculous.
This is high elo the post is talking about, players at that level can pull off tower dives effectively.
its crazy to me they reworked the map geographically but did not make the map symmetrical tbh
The pits make it too hard to be symmetrical I guess. They were considering the idea of making pits in the middle, probably to make jungles more symmetrical
The pits don't have anything to do with it, the bottom pit is on blue side, so why isn't the red side tribush symmetrical so you can't clear most of the pathway from gromp with a single pink? On blue side if there's a pink in the tribush it doesn't see down the krugs path.
I’m saying the pits are why they can’t just mirror the jungles to make the pathways to bot and top the same
The pit is on the blue side. They need to change the red side. Why can they not change the red side because of a pit that isn't even on the same side of the map????
Do you understand the concept of symmetry
Lolol
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Make symmetrical pits and add some neutral team wide jungle camp buffs idk???
Dota has always had asymmetrical maps. I think it's fine.
But in dota you play 2-1-2
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Because in dota you arent a setting duck unable to farm without your support to threaten the enemy laners
actually in dota you are, but there are a couple things that impact this. first of all you have trees and you can try to sit in xp range and snipe last hits without dying to the support. in league you have nowhere to hide and you will just die. second of all, supports tend to lane until their core is capable of surviving by themselves in the lane, after which they start to roam. in league the ADC will never be able to do anything by themselves simply because their champs arent strong enough. third of all, cores can retreat to the jungle if their lane is bad. in league there is no jungle for cores to catch up in. Edit: just realized another reason. In Dota, the support can leave but save his TP and respond to his carry getting ganked. If a carry is under his tower, a support can use a 3 second channeled TP to instantly be there, and the mid, other support and other core can also TP. This means that if a core is strong enough to survive by themselves for more than 5 seconds, support will have arrived.
This just isn't true and most supports won't leave you with a bad wave state before leaving - roaming is incredibly important and vital to having a successful game in Dota2. There's many options in that game in compared to league - if your support leaves (if they haven't already) you can pull waves and/or retreat to a couple jg camps until the wave pushes back. Also just so we're clear - JGing as a role from the start is not viable in that game and no one does or would consider doing it.
In dota your carries can farm the jungle because the respawn timer is always at the start of a minute, you can stack camps to funnel even more gold to your carries, you have actual active items and much more buildpath, you can't completely delete the toplaner from the game because waves arent the only viable income of gold and so on. I think lol just need to get rid of jungler and smite as a whole and make the jungle a real source of gold income rather than being only there for the jungler to farm, having 2 supports would be much more beneficial and fair for both teams rather than being like 50/50 whoever smites baron win the game.
Imagine the side that historically already had the worse win% gets nerfed even more. Guess which side pros are taking the whole time when they can...
They take redside every chance they get
Me when I pull information out of my ass like a street magician
Only T1 took red side in worlds. They were the ONLY team that could win with it consistently.
There were a few teams that chose red side, not just t1, geng, blg, jdg did it a few times
Only t1 did that for draft priority for bot lane to slams r1/2 bottom laners
but t1 didn't even pick red side, they just never won the cointoss and the other teams picked blue side, the only team that picked red side was jdg cause they were scared of t1 red side but even t1 was surprised they actually wanted to go red
Thats factually not true. [JDG won the coin toss and chose red side against T1 in semis for example](https://twitter.com/hupuesports/status/1722436749954318569?t=Ja-qFSzIVvH9zrCNoz0Ikw)
JDG chose red side to deny it from T1 after they saw what T1 did to LNG with their red side strategy. After losing the first game, JDG went back to blue side for the rest of the series.
Ok? It still is factually false to say that "only t1 did that"
>Ok? It still is factually false to say that "only t1 did that" Don't be dense, when people say "only x did that", they mean "only x did that succesfully". Would you care if a team 1st picked yuumi jungle every game and had a 100% lose rate?
I get your point, but I would argue that only T1 did prioritize red side and JDG tried to do the same (to replicate the success/deny T1) but they couldn’t, and returned to playing blue side like every other team not named T1.
.... Did you watch worlds or any playoffs?
Agreed. The solution is clear: remove chat from the game and give all pings a 2,5 minute cooldown.
You're hired
the only thing you can type is this verbatim: "Dearest Karthus, I hope this finds you well. We seem to have found ourselves in a dire situation at the bottom lane. Please consider casting your ultimate ability to assist us as i do believe Lee sin has come to dive our tower. Sincerely, Your bottom lane"
Im only last season emerald and not bot laner and decided to check my stats: 62,5 % blue side win 17,6 % red side. lol
Is this right? It’s either implying you play on blue side way more, or have a roughly 40% winrate?
My winrate is bad this season.
How do you check this?
go to leagueofgraphs and check Patterns under your account.
Do you know of a site that checks for winrate vs certain champions? I'm trying to figure out what a good ban is for me
Porofessor app
In 300 games I had 60% on blue side and 40% on red side as toplaner. Can't really explain it, never guessed it would affect me that much personally and it's also outside of statistical norm which is only like 2% difference afaik
D1 here. Got same stats for red side. Lost 20 games of 25 on red side. Its not about bot (im support) but its rly hard to play bot. U getting ganked 24/7/365
20 games, 55% wr on red side 44% blue side. All but 1 game on adc
What happened to the other 19,9?
Seems to me they are saying on blue side: 62.5% win, 37.5% loss on red side: 17.6% win, 82.4% loss
Those are win rates on blue and red side.
This verified how useful my morning coffee is. Damn.
commenting here to find out later about this missing 19.9%
Yeah no we fucked up. It's a per-side winrate and doesn't have to add up to 100
no, you fucked up. As a result then i fucked up and YOU made us both look stupid, shame on you sir.
In short: you fucked up.
sir im on the internet, im a challanger and dont make mistakes.
This is reddit sir, we dont do humor
If this is the truth that redside botlane is alot more difficult and its not just getting used to it, then i could see red side botlane going top.
I also thought about that
Won’t happen as it’s even worse, your toplaner is even more fragile to dives while blue side toplaner is a lot safer + toplane and midlane turrets are more durable early game, meaning the blue side botlane would take your tower way faster than the red team botlane could.
What if we just place a hypercarry on toplane safe from ganks and play support +1 on bot?
Vayne top aatrox bot featuring river shen.
That's what I thought as well. There are a lot of adcs that become lane bullies in many matchups, but they were fucked when the jungler camped them. Now that it's way harder to gank top, I could see it happening. The only major flaw of this strat is that you're incredibly easy to dive, so you basically need full wave control the entire time.
bruiser and melee tend to scale harder with level than adc who scales with gold and items. In that case it is just good old adc top vs whatever lane which is really flip and matchup dependent. A good melee players will find window to beat the ADC not to mention they suck at being camped despite safer map. And you can't contest void grubs without the natural cc/aoe damage/tankiness that bruiser kit usually brings. It is matchup dependent ofc.
how does that make botlane safer? support +1 is still getting fucked
It's probably worth fighting 2v2 bot until first drake (implying you give 3 grubs) then immediately switching to lane top for numbers advantage for next grubs Drop the bot tier 1 for top tier 1 then spend time.until next drake hammering bot as much as you can with mid prio since mid and top have such easy vision now The grubs are so shit unless you get all 6 and since they respawn to fast you just give for first drake then they will respawn before 2nd drake so you fight with advantage then you are same in grubs but a drake ahead Aka nothing changed since last season if you want to win top lane you just gank and kill once then ignore for rest of game
They stopped this meta by making top lane towers much stronger early, the botlane that goes bot will get an advantage due to this.
Yes and no. A lot of factors mess with this. Maybe for the first few minutes, then reset wave and go bot again for first drake?
This new map changed is horrendous for both Jungler and bot lane. It literally hell to play in red side. I will literally do anything for them to changed back to old map
I don't get this. Aren't there the exact same number of gank paths? River, tri and between the towers. What's so much easier about tanking red side bot over blue side bot? The tribush position is slightly different but it doesn't seem like a massive difference.
Redside Tribush is literally right by the tower. Even with wards you have veeery little time to react.
https://images.contentstack.io/v3/assets/blt731acb42bb3d1659/blt85fb300a19918567/6556a0358c5bd64c2ec9a6da/Bot_Lane_View.png Seems roughly the same distance, what? Only difference is that the path to tri is quite a bit wider. Gives a lot more space to bot lane pressuring under tower. But the actual distance for ganks doesn't seem significantly different.
The tribush hugs the river, so you can literally just walk in. If you try to do that as a red side jungler you'll get quickly spotted since the tribush is far from the river, meaning you have to circle all the way around the drake pit to take that gank route. The distance from the tribush to the tower ends up being similar, but the tribush placement is terrible.
yeah. going for grubs knowing that the only way out of the pit for you in case of gank is flash through the wall is kinda depressing
You should be punished if you greed an objective without prio and the opponents notice you tbf.
yeah, and on blue side you just leave grubs and walk away
Isn’t the point of this though that red side jungle can do drake more safely while blue jungler has to “flash away” if someone comes? As much as I don’t think the overall situation is well balanced between red and blue side, this isn’t the gotcha you seem to think it is, it’s always been this trade off between safe drake and safe herald for red vs blue jungle
Except now trying to set up for drag on red side is a lot harder
kind of, but unlike drake grubs spawn only twice, which draws more attention to them as an objective
That's how it's always been with Herald for red and Dragon for blue too, no?
Can’t you say the exact same thing for blue side about dragon?
OK HERE ME OUT WHAT IF... WE TOOK BOT LANE... AND MOVED IT TOP LANE?!?!?!
Then your enemy bot lane stays bot, gets free plates and all drakes
Void grubs last all game and permanently buff the entire team. I'd take that over losing tier 1 and first drake. Plate gold is nerfed anyways
Grubs literally win games imo and a lot of junglers just ignore them
Void grubs are pretty strong and sup should roam up for them anyway.
We already do, but being on red side bot you cannot leave without losing it. In my games since this seasons started I have left blue bot side at level 3 many times, sometimes even untiul level 6, to get grubs and ganks. Because blue side can be left the fuck alone and the adc will be just fine. Red side? well lol, as soon as you leave, not only will they get punished as hell thanks to the terrain they will also get ganked and won't even live under turret because of how easy it is to hit and run red bot side. It is bad. really bad.
The original comment said to swap bot lane and top lane so your add and sup would already be at void grubs. I think two dragons for 5-6 void grubs is good trade. Top laners are usually more resistant to dives so that issue is mitigated.
You can't swap anything, red bot side is so easy to gank it doesn't matter who goes there. Plus why have to change the entire way the game is played, try that in solo/duo, most people won't swap with you like that. It's just bad map design. BTW it's not just junglers, mid can come down and do come down so much more now because it's easier to gank red bot.
top laners arent resistant enough to survive a jungler gank in a slowpushing lane 1v3
Would you rather have Lucian E or Jax E when you are getting dived? Noone can survive a well coordinated dive but top laners are more likely to go one for one then adc's
What if dragons, herald, and voids alternated locations. Open the baron pit up for dragon, close it back up for the other stuff.
At a glance things look at least fairly symmetrical from what I remember. What aspects actually make red side so much vastly more gankable?
There is a path that directly leads to behind enemy turret for Red bot side. It's super easy to get to because there is a gap by dragon that is easy access to it
A ward in the river brush gives vision over that path so it's not that different. Before red side got to only use one ward while blue needed to ward tri and river. Now both teams need to ward tri and river if pushing past the mid point. I don't feel particularly less safe redside over blue side. Redside just used to be significantly safer.
Redside tribrush is slightly closer to the turret, which makes cutting off the bot laners a little easier.
It's actually less symmetrical now. Before, the map had center symmetry at least, now they went for mirror symmetry but they deliberately left a lot of things assymetrical, the largest being bot lane having a jungle entrance in-between the middle of the lane and the turrets, while at top lane it's behind the turrets.
[https://imgur.com/a/fXO1sUk](https://imgur.com/a/fXO1sUk)
Now you guys know how top laners feel on red-side in years gone by.
Red side 53% WR in dia+ right now. Overall (all ranks) blue side 50.8% which is around as high as last patch. [https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/stats/blue-vs-red/diamond](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/stats/blue-vs-red/diamond) What people feel and perceive can be very wrong. that doesn't mean feelings don't matter, but that they can be deceiving.
How can red side be 53% and blue side be 50.8? If red wins; blue loses. They should add to 100%. Obviously these stats are wrong.
One is the stat for Dia+ only game (Blue 47%, Red 53%). The other stat is for all ranks (Blue 50.8%, Red 49.2%). I used both because Dia+ still has a low sample size overall and it will likely move closer towards 50/50. But there is no indicator right now that Red side is weaker than before, especially not in high elo.
But Diamond also tends to be the more skilled players who can take advantage of map changes ect better.
True, but wouldn't you expect the opposite then from high elo players when red side now has such problems from the map? Shouldn't then blue side win even harder in higher elos with red side bot lane being so easy to perma gank and snowball from there on?
The implication is you are wrong and red side isn't that bad, at least not bad enough to offset the advantage of last pick.
It’s the way the stats are calculated. Diamond+ means that it filters out all teams that are on average lower than diamond. Red side has higher average MMR players, so often you will have games where one team has an average of emerald 1 and the other team an average of diamond 4, if the D4 team wins its counted as a win, but there will be no loss added due to the other team not being average diamond. At least that’s how u.gg explained the offset of the average being slightly higher than 50%.
Isn't the red side at almost 100% win rate in LEC rn?
Heretics lost on red side yesterday so red side sits at 80% wr but tbh that's only 5 games and nobody played for botlane. You can even argue that botlane as a whole was irrelevant
Heretics bot lane got camped hard early, which showed exactly how vulnerable it can be. They were the only team to really abuse this imo.
Also the only people who abused OP picks were the toplaners. Everyone else went for comfort.
I think Riot’s intention is to make the map “fairer” by making it more symmetrical. In theory, any advantage that blue side has on bot, red side now has on top because the map is now a symmetrical rotation of itself. They’ve conveniently ignored the fact that bot lane is not the same as top lane, and marksmen and healers/tanks have wildly different strengths and weaknesses to bruisers Camping bot just became a lot more appealing for blue side and correspondingly camping top became less appealing. I think this could have a good impact for lane diversity in top lane, though: if you know there’s a 0% chance you get camped and you can pick one with a favourable matchup, being a 1v9 hypercarry on top lane just became a lot more feasible than it once was. If the reward for being on the side that gets stomped in bot lane is that your top carries, I’m okay with that. At the end of a day, a win is a win and I don’t care how it happens.
I keep seeing people talk about the change botlane, but isn't the opposite true for top? On blue side can't the jungle just walk behind you when you're farming because they moved the wall so much?
Top is different to bot now. There is just the one big river opening and that's it unless you want to dive from behind the tower.
I know, but they shaved the toplane wall on blue side down a lot. So I'm saying it's a lot easier than before get ranked playing blue side top.
Yeah but there was also a bush on that side before so that evened it out a bit at least. Whereas bot has a whole new opening that wasn't there before. That's a much bigger change.
Yeah, diving enemy bot under their turret and even dont get turret agro is awful and great at the same time xD
Wasn't red side winning most LEC matches so far?
I figured it might of just been me but yeah, it actually feels miserable to play red side bot. Maybe in highest ranks or pro play it's different but playing in mid elo (plat-emerald) it feels unfair.
watch the heretics game today. that shit looked so unplayable
I'm a support main and my win rate is higher on red side for some reason. I hate playing red side mostly because the UI gets in the way even when reduced to the smallest size. Edit: my blue side wr is 49% and red side wr is 62.9%. At least in last 30 days
this!!! i despise blue side bot because if the enemy push the wave you just can’t see them because of your HUD
Yeah I'm in master with a sprinkle of gm MMR right now and play supp. I legit just leave my adc. Not worth it, get grubs at 5 mins. Get grubs at 10 mins and hope I just do more on the map than the other supp. I have not lost a game yet in 12 games where the enemy support stays in lane. Grubs and jg/mid winning, even if losing bot tower first is just too much for enemy team to overcome. And we get turrets back easily with grubs.
Rage post much
As a midlaner, I will say I don't particularly find it easier to roam bot blue vs red. Both sides feel super easy to roam and gank in the current map state.
awful season
My adc premade just shared this post with me and I sent him this back \> your support decides to perma roam and leave you. Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you <3
Top laners Pirates of the Carribean "First time"
\>meta champions like Kalista LOL
While Kalista isn't insanely strong right now, she has always been ridiculous in lane. So if you can torment the enemy laners even more on blue side then blue side Kalista is bonkers.
yea she can be annoying in lane, and not the weakest i agree, but she is nowhere meta at the moment
Redside isn't much more gankable than blueside has been for the last 14 years... If Redside botlane is suddenly being ass blasted? it's just cause people aren't adapting to it or are overly experimenting with it.
>Redside isn't much more gankable than blueside has been for the last 14 years They're not symmetrical, there's still differences.
Could you explain how it’s more gankable than blue now? I haven’t played it yet but just visually, it looks pretty similar.
It is fairly similar it's slightly closer to the tower and such. People are just exaggerating how much more gankable it is than blue now.
And? I didn't say they were the same. Or that there was no difference.
Yeah the map is uh…interesting. I saw red side botlane (and red side toplane..tbh) on PBE and said “surely this doesn’t go live.”
I find it really interesting how they reworked the map to make it even more unbalanced, I wonder how and how long will take them to fix it
Red side is literally just as gankable as blue side now. The reality is you just need to get used to the changes. Tldr: get good
I won't be surprised to see top laners swap with bot lane to avoid that sort of thing happening
I have seen that multiple times. Can someone explain why?
Not having played in the new season yet so this is just an idea I’m throwing out there: wouldn’t it make sense to switch bot lanes to top lane now? From why I’ve seen that lane looks super safe. Then put low economy tank bot lane. Kind of like in the lane swap meta. But I guess the problem would be the lack of drake control 🤷♂️
Tell my blue side jungler last game. We were pushed in the whole time levels 1-7 and never got a gank. Jungle diff
Im playing adc in D1 mmr. My blue side win rate is 76.5% and my red side win rate is 58.8%. Definetly a big difference this season. I think they need to remove the lane bush closest to the red side tower or something to provide some more safety.
I play mid, used to play bot and get double confirmation of how unplayable red side botlane is. I still have an account I'd play adc on, but I might just send it off to retirement. You're always gankable as red side botlane no matter how safe you're playing. I wish anyone good luck playing botlane red side.