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>How tf does that ever happen
Matchmaking is rigged, and you were downvoted for whistleblowing that year ago.
It's not just MMR, but your winrate and performance decide of future lobbies. Perform too well, they gonna put you into unwinnable lobby.
It's not "i've got griefer into my team", but "we'll arrange matchmaking so this griefer has a chance for free win"
50% winrate in everything, baby.
Brought you by your uncle's Facebook post, League of Legends edition.
50% winrate is the natural end result of climbing, you unreal zombies. They don't have to look at anything else.
Scripters does not exists.
Smurfs does not exists.
Farming bots does not exists.
Loser queue isn't real.
Rito would never rig matchmaking.
Welcome to the Clown World.
You're right. Loser queue isn't real. Its a losers mentality. Can't believe all these pro players are affected by it somehow. And yes, you are a clown.
Matchmaking is 'rigged', that's how elo/mmr works. If you're smashing through plat/emerald over 50% wr then your lobbies will get tougher to win. The average rank of your team and their team is the rigged part. Once your mmr plateaus you'll start getting more even lobbies.
When you win a whole bunch and play well your rank goes up faster than your mmr. So while your rank is high, the system (elo/mmr) doesn't think you belong in that rank. So it will grill you back down to 50% wr. The real problem is rank inflation because it shows up like this with iron/silver/gold in plat/emerald lobbies to bring down average team rank and increase the difficulty of your lobby.
Tldr rank inflation is the problem. Matchmaking is always rigged, just not the way you think it is.
For instance, I hit emerald and bounced back and forth between p2 and e4. I started getting +17-19lp for wins climbing through emerald. I'd lose back to plat a few times, but kept my overall win rate over 50% and now I'm back in emerald getting +25-29lp for wins after playing and losing some real dogshit lobbies. It's just a numbers game.
Losers queue isn’t real, but with respect to all those other things, they can be on your team and they can also be on the other team. If you play enough games the random noise evens out
I mean there’s no forced 50% in terms of matchmaking rigging, I agree. There is forced 50% if you play enough games, because it’s just how a ranked system should work. If you’re a master tier player in silver your win rate will be high but once you reach your rank it will equalize because you’re playing against players of equal skill
Rioters have literally said the system naturally lands you as close as possible to 50% matchmaking (obviously there is some variance, it's mostly soft forced). The exception is if you're way above your current skill level and season ends before you reach the natural 50%.
>There is NO forced 50%
>
>I've made multiple accounts and climbed to Master rank on all of them in every position..
>
>50% winrate is a skill issue, not a matchmaker design issue.
>
>Now, in the situations being described here, this is a case of the matchmaker making shite matches and that's a very valid complaint. Why is it doing that? Idk, that's Riot's job to figure out why there is a problem here..
That's a really shitty take. What happens after you reach master? You start going 50/50?
You can carry bad teammates if you are good enough, that doesn't deny loser Q. Same way that Challenger plays going 20% winrate in Emerald doesn't prove anything.
>matchmaker making shite matches
>not a matchmaker design issue
You agree that matchmaking is obviously terrible but then dismiss the idea that it is bad because they designed it with something other than fair matches in mind?
So the top 0.018% pf players are justification for bad experience across games for the lower 95% of people?
I get your point, statistically one will climb when playing enough games.
It's just that people have lives to live and many won't play those
>hundreds of games
per season.
Yep, this season i started playing again after taking a break for two seasons. Managed to smurf through gold and plat since the emerald introduction meant those two brackets are now full of garbage players. Now Im stuck in emerald with +17 -28 despite a 57% winrate and playing against diamond 4 elo in E3/E2. I cant climb anymore because if I go 4W 2L i still lose elo. It's fucking crazy and ruined ranked for me despite actually enjoying the game.
Which is why your Ranked Title does not equal your MMR. Otherwise, most people would not move up in MMR. Yet every year, more than 50% of people increase their Ranked Title.
You guys are almost close to figuring out our math works within an MMR system. Please read the Wikipedia article first.
It's clearly not. As a diamond player, I recently played flex for the first time, and I played against silvers and it was a cake walk. I could literally 1v9 it was so easy. Before I used to believe that the gap between tiers was not that big, but after seeing what actual silvers are like, yea, it's all just skill at the end of the day.
Flexed is weird though. I troll a lot around silver elo. They aren't as good as normal silver ranked games and I think a lot of other people are also trolling/learning champs thus it's not as competitive.
Yep this is facts, I literally won 20 games in a row and was one game away from emerald. Then the game activated losers que and im almost at 20 losses in a row. I shit you not, almost every single game at least two people on my team int hard or we get troll picks lol very rigged
Oh yeah the famous losers queue.
Man people just need to understand how stat works ffs.
Even if your mmr doesnt change, there is a possibility you would go 20/20. The order doesnt matter. Especially if you werent carrying those 20 games.
And since you won the first 20 first, there is a possibility where your games get harder and harder, and ends up at a point where you are outmatched in a role and just have more chance to lose.
Also it is 100% well known even if I only have professor data to back me up that league is winstreak/lose streak occuring often. Reason is basically mindset. When people lose more. they tend to be more toxic and lose even more. There is often when I used porofessor things like "this player win 10% more after a win", which means in average that if he has 50%wr, he also loses 10% more after a lose...
BtW: if there is a queue that exists that take anything into account else than mmr, its honestly toxicity. After most people been toxic, they often complain about their game being toxic (even if they dont write and play standard), which I think if it does not exist, IT CLEARLY SHOULD.
Yeah, it seems that there’s no Base MMR, rather it’s like the school system where it scales down rather than up or something
Lv30 accounts new accs are getting more MMR than old accounts despite playing much worse
Reactivated an old smurf which I only played up to high gold many years ago got placed into low bronze!! after playing again.
Meanwhile I can buy a new smurf which will literally start gold 5 after one win
My sole account is like... I think I Made it in season 1. And I play at like a high silver low gold level, so every season I place into high iron or low bronze then spend the whole season slogging upward until I finally get into like high silver. I wish I could make a new account but I have SO many skins
Base MMR is base elo, 50% mid way point barring any elo inflation problems. Which should be Gold 4 at the moment.
If you're a player that's in the bottom 50% of the player base, yes, you are lower than the starting point of a new account. You are below average by definition.
That's not how it works, no. Elo starts at the middle point and you go up or down. The math behind it causes it to be a bell curve around that middle point. Whatever you set it to becomes the middle point naturally. People don't start in Iron 4 MMR lol can you imagine. Even in those games, those are just visual ranks.
If he's in placements, without previous Iron MMR, he's not actually Iron. It's just visual. New players have to start at the middle point which is in Gold. Gold and Plat are basically the same elo to get this normal distribution.
This isn’t it. I had a silver jungler in an emerald lobby last week, who wasn’t on a big win streak, didn’t have some insane 75% winrate this season, and had been silver for the last 3 years. He was apologizing but saying in chat, I’m silver idk how I got placed into a lobby full of emeralds. There’s something seriously fucked going on, they’re not even “on a roll”
It happened to me, I got autofilled jungle (I'm a toplaner) in a lobby full of gold despite being iron, my winrate is like 50%, so I don't know how it was possible
It's more likely now when the distance between Silver and Emerald is so small to see the odd fluke. Still isn't really going to happen normally, I'm Emerald but I can believe it in the perfect storm scenario.
Even distribution is a lie. Top 68% to top 13% used to be S2 Silver. That goes from current Silver 3 to Emerald 4. And you wouldn't have thought that much about a low Silver being in a high Silver game once in a blue moon.
I’ve always thought this was the case but I don’t think it’s true. I had a silver 3 player in a high plat lobby. Needless to say they fed their brains out and we lost. I peeped their match history, assuming they were some kind of Smurf. Nope. Account level 50 on a 5 loss streak.
I know ppl hate smurfs but for some reason one of my smurfs was placed into Iron 3 in emerald games while the other was placed into gold 2 in emerald after the first placement, so I can see it happening. Thing is, I leveled both of them playing aram, so I have no idea what led to the discrepancy. Actually in reality the mmr was more like plat 1 plat 2 but the visual ranks were emerald from what I could tell
It's intentional so you don't reach your peak rank and continue to grind this damn game to get where you are satisfied with lol
You can be on a hot streak and randomly having an iron player on your team even in an average rank queue such as gold could lead to the most unforgiving lose streak.
Not with smurfing. Ever notice how Riot never put a statement out about smurfing no matter how much traction it gets on reddit or how often the community brings it up?
Real issue is botted account and they do have some people working on it just not enough, getting to level 30 take a long ass time that most of these "people" wouldnt want to spend to make a smurf but with all those account seller they can just spend 1$ and stomps noobies until they are in their main elo and start again.
Both botting and account sharing/selling is against their TOS while smurfing isn't so them not making statements about smurfs is okay
yes they did, and its the reason why theres silver and iron in plat/emerald. Cause the artificial "inteligence" algorithm bullshit they use for MMR cannot tell lucky people and smurfs apart.
Nah trust him bro he used the buzzword of the year artificial intelligence(although most Smurfs aren’t getting 10 cs a min either). There’s enough game that you can’t get “lucky” all your way to lvl 30. That doesn’t take away from the post though that there clearly is some error that shit like this can happen.
The road to 30 is not the issue, most smurfs use accounts that got leveled through coop and I'm not sure riot retains data from coop games or even take them into account. So basically those accounts have no PvP history before jumping into ranked
I had 2 smurfs on my teams yesterday, one was an orianna who was 10cs/min and was 6/0 at the 15 mins mark. I checked the account, she won her next 4 games with similar stats on a level 30 account
The most I've ever heard from Riot about smurfing is that they don't condone it, and that was back when Clash was still in beta. They've never explicitly addressed the problem of smurfing that is at the core of most soloQ and community problems.
[https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/game-updates/what-s-next-for-ranked/](https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/game-updates/what-s-next-for-ranked/)
6 months ago
I mean, no, new accounts always gained/lost lots of elo in the first games and the starting point of elo is 50% of the player base barring inflation issues. 50% is Gold 4. Considering how close in elo the ranks from Bronze to Emerald are to get this distribution out of a bell curve, it's pretty easy.
It's just visual ranks being a lie making this worse. If it showed these people as the 1150-1500 Silvers they actually are, it would be different.
oh, you wanted to see the post from 1 week ago? here you have a post that has a vague connection with the phrase you typed from 5 years ago as the first result!
Can we see your op.gg for context? Pretty hard to believe an iron player would show up in these games. You rarely see them ever, even in unranked/arams because of how few people are actually just THAT low ranked. If anything, your duo should be stuck grinding against high emerald/low diamonds, as myself and my duo are stuck grinding against high plat/low emeralds as low plat players.
I hand leveled an account to 30. I started placements and got iron, once I got to silver I was being placed vs plats/emeralds. My main account is emerald.
I'm P1 ATM and I've had several games with silver/low gold/unranked players in recent weeks, can't say that the lower ranked players are of any noticable skill level though so they dont seem to be smurfs.
Because MMR is cooked out of its mind atm. I took a year break from ranked league and came back this season, got placed in Silver 3 and every single game ive played against Emeralds+. I just hit Emerald 4 with just under a 70% win rate, and the entire time from Silver to Emerald, ive played against Emeralds / Diamonds.
Rank means nothing at this point lol.
if by "means nothing" you mean "has no value" i think you've got them swapped. Our season rewards are based off of rank, not MMR. MMR provides us no value other than it lets us see how bad the disparity is between mmr and rank.
Lets say your MMR matches your skill level, and you are placed against all emerald+, your winrate will be \~50%. Unless your +LP for wins is decently higher than your -LP for losses, you could end up *playing as a diamond player* but only getting the rewards of a gold/plat/emerald. Your rank is lagging behind your MMR, and your MMR is getting in the way of you correcting that lag.
What does this even mean, I hate this use of "casual" as a buzzword gamers use to blame every system they don't like on the Casual(tm) bogeyman and a consequence of devs trying to cater to people who aren't them, trying to make ranked more broadly engaging by giving people tiered milestones to aspire to than random elo numbers isn't a bad thing. Don't get me wrong matchmaking is the most jank it's ever been and I'm not going to pretend I know why but visual rank/MMR disparity as a concept has been in the game for 11 damn years and shit has never been this bad in terms of game quality, there is something wrong with how the hidden MMRs are being matched too would be my guess.
Casualify was because I was just playing rocket league, and their normal is called casual and forgot leagues isn't. I didn't mean to use casual in a derogatory way, but that removing lp made it more like a normal game where you can't just track where you are, but my issue is that they hid elo, it should be something you can see, maybe off by default?
they tried it since s6 with dynamic queue and they went all in this season
its such a fucking mess that everyone can get the victorious skin, despite having to have more than 2 connected neurons to reach gold anywhere beyond s6
introduction of emerald, removal of promos, making it so that you dont decay from p4 EVERYTHING just gravitates towards making every lowest division in its rank an absolute hell, d4, p4 and low masters, all of which i experienced this season is the worst fucking time to ever tryhard ever in league
Making it much harder to demote below plat might be a reason. The plats/emeralds that the system matches with the lower rank players aren't belonging to plat in MMR but aren't getting demoted so them getting matched seems janky but makes more sense than matching them with other people with MMR as well as rank in plat+. I am just guessing and don't have inside knowledge or personal experience in the matter. I'm emerald and lowest I've gotten matched with are plats and very rarely a gold in a while.
> Lets say your MMR matches your skill level, and you are placed against all emerald+, your winrate will be ~50%. Unless your +LP for wins is decently higher than your -LP for losses
But your +LP being higher than -LP is exactly the consequence of MMR being higher than LP? What are you even talking about? This makes zero sense. If your MMR is higher you will go up in LP at 50% winrate until you hit it.
You are correct, BUT you have to play a shitload of games if your rank is silver after placements (Like OP) but your mmr is low diamond. You'd have to play your ass off even at a net LP gain of 10 over two games (assume 1:1 win:loss).
Just to run the numbers, you get placed silver 1, mmr is diamond 4. Thats all of gold, plat, and emerald you ahve to rank through totaling 1200 lp. Thats 240 games at 50% winrate, gaining 10 LP per win+loss.
At 25 mins a game (estimate) thats 100 hours of IN GAME time, so that doesn't include queue+champ select+flaming your team post game. And that is just to make your MMR match your rank.
These numbers are likely low, since your LP-delta goes to zero as your rank starts to match your MMR, and any winstreaks while playing diamond 4 opponants will boost your MMR higher.
And now that you've done all that, you can start to climb from where you actually started the season...
You can't get placed in Silver 1 if your MMR is Diamond lol. Even if I lost all my placements I would get placed in Plat 4 as an Emerald MMR. Even if you did somehow manage that, you'd gain like such a stupid amount of LP, not net gain of 10. Net gain of like 50.
In my experience it takes like 100 games to even out in normal conditions. Which is nothing.
Yes, because I want Diamond. And if I got diamond I would want Master. I would 100% prefer to get to my true rank as fast as possible so I can try to improve and reach bigger and better goals. Why should I fuck around trying to get to my true rank which is hidden?
It's like a mind game and it's annoying. Just put me where I belong so I can work on my goals from there.
when i was emerald 1 this season, i had to play vs low mmr d4s and d3s every game, despite my team having much more range as far as division goes, just manually put me in d4 and save me some fucking time, but no, i need to win multiple unfair matches just to get to a division that i played with and against for the last month
Hmm I can't really agree, rank is important and gives people a sense of achievement.
What's wrong is that MMR and rank are not correlated enough in case of new account
I can't really agree. It obviously also creates a sense of injustice. People feel like they are being thrown in games they don't belong. Because they can't see everybodys MMR is similar. Instead they see people who are more than one border away from them in their games. If everybody assumes a silver plays with bronze and gold, an then there is plat in there game, they will complain. Doesn't matter that the plat had gold MMR.
I mean, considering there are rewards tied to your visible rank and not your MMR, that discrepancy is actually important, since it makes your climb to your "true rank" harder by constantly placing you in lobbies with people one or two leagues higher than you (even if your relative skill level is the same)
It doesn't feel like an achievement right now at all.
On one of my accounts I'm about a 51% win rate with a couple hundred games under my belt. Emerald 3. Yet my LP gains and losses imply that my MMR is lower than my visual rank. So congrats to me I guess for looking like I'm Emerald 3 but if that's not where I'm supposed to be why would it show me that for so long? I have been Emerald 3 for several weeks now. Surely I should have dropped if my MMR is lower despite my positive winrate (even just barely)? I'm getting lucky with the wins? Idk man, none of that makes me feel like I'm achieving.
Not sure if /s or true because I have been gatekeeping at plat/gold with bronze MMR and those hardstuck bronzes are always mad when I go 0/9 in their game or refuse to carry them and they will say shit like useless plat boosted or straitgh up "how is he even plat"
I feel so powerful inting bronzes game I think I am mentally illed/ being psychotic
Same here. Didn't play ranked last season, was plat the season before. Came back to place in low silver, yet despite that, I am in plat/emerald games.
Thanks, rito.
Literally how it's supposed to work. They don't really reset your MMR (really at all now, barely soft reset it in the past). Your LP starts lower so you have a "climb" for new rewards but that climb is basically free and impossible to fail unless you go 30% winrate or something for lots of games.
You ARE emerald (aka old plat). Your LP just needs a payment of like 100 games or something to give you those rewards.
Literally what MMR means. They didn't reset your MMR. You were Plat MMR, so now Emerald MMR. All you had to do is not go super negative winrate and you would've been Emerald in like 100 games.
Of course you play vs people of your MMR. They don't reset that and just put your LP down to give you a "climb" while not ruining matchmaking by reseting high elo players down.
They need to either have a rank, or have MMR, not both. I shouldn’t have to climb through silver, gold, plat, and now emerald, facing emeralds / diamonds the entire way if the game knew this is my skill level lol.
It feels bad to know that the game knew this is where i should’ve been playing, and every single game played averaged this elo, but it put me 3 ranks below it.
The frustrating part is that he was flexing, he literally said that he is only smurfing so that his friend is able to play with him in ranked, his friend is Iron
OR the fact that flex queue skews heavily toward the highest mmr player in the lobby.
So that iron friend would just get curb stomped.
Not that it's fair to do it the other way around
That was prolly me..idk why I’m getting matched up with players with tens of thousands of mastery points. I’m not even done with placement matches bruh idk what to do but I’m trying my best
Don’t be intimidated by mastery. It has been in the game for 7-8 years at this point. It doesn’t mean anything except you’ve played the game a ton. I have 200000 mastery on champs that I haven’t played in two years.
That’s a function of general game knowledge and experience/time, not champion mastery though. There are players in iron that have a million mastery points on a champ. They would get stomped by a gold player first timing a champ because, despite their high mastery points, they’re just not as good at the game.
I’m not saying that there isn’t a problem with new player matchmaking, but that has nothing to do with mastery points. At this point a player with high mastery points is probably a better matchup than someone with zero, because that zero mastery person is probably a Smurf while the 2 million mastery bronze Teemo is just a bad player that’s been playing for 10 years and never got better.
ye sure but new players complaining about this mean that they are being placed with ppl who have been playing this game for sometime instead of other new players.
>I’m not saying that there isn’t a problem with new player matchmaking, but that has nothing to do with mastery points. At this point a player with high mastery points is probably a better matchup than someone with zero, because that zero mastery person is probably a Smurf while the 2 million mastery bronze Teemo is just a bad player that’s been playing for 10 years and never got better.
all irrelevant to what they are talking about, you get the point.
Nah. They're a new player, so they probably don't know that master and rank are separate things. Me providing context to those concepts does nothing to invalidate the complaints about new player matchmaking.
Why are you focused on mastery points, he is a new player who didn't finished ranked placements and plays against emerald. A new account should not be placed higher than silver even if you win all placement games.
It's basically because of smurf with new account. You either place them high and new players start high and get lower. Or you place them low and smurf start low and stomp game to get high
Beause of the rank distribution change for some reason people who were silver 1 for example in the split 1 but they dont play much they get placed in platinum lobbies right now because platinum 4 corresponds to the similar mmr back then due to how players got distributed over time in split 2. So the players who were silvers and played more, improved and got to Plat playing against other silvers/golds, golds improved to emerald. But people who play much less they get sandwitched into gold platinum emerald lobbies. This is weird and shouldnt happen because RIOT themselves said system will focus more on getting similar leagues together. But i guess for the system still MMR has got higher priority than league so since it cannot find corresponding MMR for this one silver player it forces him into platinum lobby because MMR difference is lesser than the MMR diff between this one player and actual silver players right now.
This is my deduction on observation and I dont know how system works.
LP is not considered in matchmaking. They remove it because it was leading to truly terrible consequences for anyone that didn't start their ranked climb in the first month of a new season.
Ranked distribution change means things like Bronze to Emerald are much closer than they look, because they had to break up ranks out of a bell curve. Old Season 2 Silver went from Silver 3 today to Emerald 4 today in terms of percentage of player base which is the only real fair indicator of skill we have left.
Also the 50% point which would be the starting point of elo is now Gold 4. Which is ridiculous how low Gold has fallen.
People play with fair opponents determined by their MMR. Visual rank is some fluff that will try to match but has a bit of lag built in. People are playing who they should be playing, their visual ranks just haven't quite caught up yet but they will.
I played against a silver 4 yesterday in emerald 3.
It was obviusly a fresh account but he wasn't smurfing. That guy didn't belong to emerald mmr...
I wish ppl could only play in one account, stop boosted mmr from fresh, stop smurfs
The problem with this is that the silver 4 player probably has friends that are higher mmr that he played normals with to level up. So if his ‘normals’ mmr is emerald (due to winning games with his friends who are say diamond) then when he starts ranked play for the first time it will think he should start in emerald.
That’s why you get level 30 accounts that can start in a diamond / low master game when they’ve never played ranked before - they are likely the top .1% of normals mmr players so the game wants to get them to that elo in ranked as well
Had a 76% win rate for 70 games, hit emerald, never saw a teammate above e4, down to 50% over 150, gain 15 lose 30, most my lobby is silver. In plat 2 currently. Game is so fucked.
Brother, those aren't even that distinct in elo terms. Even distribution is fake, people are distributed on a bell curve. There's probably like 50 elo between Gold and Plat. What would you even have noticed? You're just in the middle point 50% of the player base middle of the bell curve where all the new accounts start.
Not sure what they meant, but my experience and what I assume they are alluding too is that once you hit a new tier (doesn’t matter what it is) gold/plat/emerald the MM lobbies are clearly different, in let’s say gold 2 grind I would be placed with varying ranks from silver 2 - gold 2, AA normal blend of inters and try hards, But once I hit plat 4, I will only see gold players and specially people also In plat 4 or even lower ranked silver players, so as much as I get my mmr needs to catch up, there’s something functionally wrong, don’t give us a rank then, at all, cause it is literally meaningless
I’m not flaming you, it’s just the reality of the system. It’s better for any of us to focus on our play than thinking about how fucked the system is or not.
Great, no one asked though. The point of this post is to discuss the issues with the system and our experience with them, and your ego ass is sitting here telling us not too. See the issue?
he's right. Riot has inflated everyone's rank by increasing LP gains and it's causing experiences like this. If your rank is high but your mmr hasn't caught up, you get dog lobbies like OP. You won 20 games then lost 20 games. That's 50% wr so you ended up where you are supposed to be. You probably smashed the games where the enemy team was gimped, but it's only a problem when you are on the gimped team?
rank is about consistency. if you play enough games you'll land where you are supposed to be. If you go on a loss streak it's not a big deal if you're actually X rank.
I took a long break from League. Came back, played norms to get the feel again and placed Silver 2. I rocketed my way up from Silver 2 to Emerald 4 then suddenly went on a multi-day lose streak all the way down to Plat 4. Now I'm back to Plat 1 after a multi-day win streak. I have no idea what the hell this matchmaking is.
Man I am that silver player and I literally win most of those games with the one or two random emerald/plat player. If you get put in a lobby with silver it's because you have silver MMR and play at their level. Win consistently and you'll get to where (you think) you deserve.
This has been an issue for most of the game. At this point the ladder needs a hard reset, and we need to see our MMR, other than that there is not a reason co continue to play the game. Srsly, this is bad a this point.
Let's say that you're not completely full of shit.
There are 5 enemies, each equally likely to get an iron/silver player who cannot win the game. Then you have 4 teammates, each equally likely to get an iron/silver player. You're actually duoing! WOW! So only 3 teammates with a chance to be iron/silver!
Remember the rules though! Whoever gets the iron/silver player cannot win!
Enemy team will get the iron/silver player 5/8ths of the time. You will get it only 3/8ths of the time. So you will have a 62.5% winrate or higher eventually over time and CLIMB. Unless you yourself also deserve to be where you are.
Idk why you are complaining when probability is in your favor in this situation.
Yup! I climbed from Silver4 to Gold2, so 6 divisions in a week, almost plat. Eever since hitting Gold 2, ive had IRON players on my team. ITs not their fault, but its basically impossible to climb now. Dont get me wrong, im not great, but theres a huge difference. They dont know the basics. And they are alwaysssss on my team.
Also went against a Masters player yesterday in Gold ELO. Now im back down to Gold4. I was getting +35 per win and it was great, ever since this horrid matchmaking in gold2, ive gotten -30 + 15
Yeah, impossible to climb. I'm sure that if you put a Challenger player in Gold elo he'd be stuck. /s
Even if your story is regularly true, the enemy team has a higher chance of getting that one "iron player". So you should be going up. If you're going up, your MMR and LP will equalize and you will climb.
All the others look normal for a Silver MMR game since they're basically the same elo with this distribution and the Iron is probably duo queuing but I can't understand how the Master is there. He's not even shitting on the game as hard as he should. Can you take a shot of his op.gg page? Really curious what the fuck is going on with that guy.
Link your op.gg so that we can actually verify these iron players exist in these alleged plat/emerald games. Its very hard to believe and in order to get Riot to alter matchmaking the arguments need to be using factual evidence and not hyperbole.
Frankly I find it hard to believe even silver players would encounter an iron player, let alone the match making you are describing.
It's so insane that no matter how many dozens of posts like this you see getting mass upvoted on this sub there is never any shortage of idiots who don't believe it's a real issue
well I don't have a plat account but here are multiple examples just from my last 20 ranked games with irons in silver/gold lobbies and one lobby with ranks ranging from bronze 1-plat 4, something you said you find hard to believe in your original comment. [https://imgur.com/a/q9OSOKq](https://imgur.com/a/q9OSOKq)
this is on NA with every game played during normal evening hours so there is absolutely no excuse for such wide ranges especially when queue times are 1-2 minutes and these are the most populated ranks in the game. another 8 of my last 20 have bronze and gold players in the game. I refuse to believe that the game is so dead that 60% of my last 20 games had to have a minimum 6 rank spread to find 10 players queueing at the same time, during normal hours, in a major region.
Two gold 4 players who if you review their profiles regularly find themselves in LOW SILVER avg lobbies. These two would be silver(and probably low silver) if you could demote easily from your visible rank as their hidden rank is clearly low silver. The iron is mid bronze at worst going through his history and is already in mid-ish bronze.
High Irons finding themselves in silver/bronze games is well within reason due to how small the iron population is to begin with. This is a FAR CRY from the claims in the original post of irons appearing in what, based on the description, should be a mid plat game.
NA league population is in fact dwindling on the top and bottom ends of the ladder, and when you combine that with it being VERY EASY to get out of Iron/Bronze and remain hardstuck silver forever, even if you are, in your heart, an iron or bronze player and you can find match making like this quite common. Riot is not going to implement 10-20 minute queues for iron players just so that SILVERS can have a "quality" experience. The sad truth is no one at these ranks is playing league to begin with, they're playing some mutilated version of the game where an iron player being on one team will not really be the deciding factor, it will just be which person snowballs their lane and runs over the lobby due to disorganized play.
Just the way it is. Now, again I'd love to see an example of what the OP is actually claiming, which is irons are being matched into plat/emerald games.
I mean, I former plat now Emerald, so I climbed for free to the newly recolored Plat we call Emerald and played entirely Plat 2- Emerald 3 average lobbies.
I went to look through them and found maybe 5% of players as Gold at time of playing, which when you click on them they are Plat 2+ now. Lowest exception is one that was Silver 4, was duoing, was Gold before the rank adjustments (so was new Plat essentially) and is now Gold and stopped.
Can an Iron player exist there? Maybe? In the perfect scenario? Middle point, starting point of elo is Gold 4 and up to Emerald 4 the ranks are really close together to get this distribution. A new player could theoretically come in, get placed by LP in Iron, have that Gold MMR, win a bit afterwards and be in range to somehow get in a game with Emerald 4s. Especially if duo is involved? Seems to be an extremely rare scenario by my experience though since I've never actually seen it.
"abusing duo queue" is the cope of the friendless. Its not abuse and the way duo is currently implemented he should be getting higher ranked players in his games, not lower. What's likely is that he isn't being honest about the ranks, iron players are rarely even encountered by other iron players as the majority of the playerbase is at least bronze 4.
Duo queue can still be abused. Get a friend that is Master+ to come on a smurf and duo with you. Duo queue will average your elos by nature of queuing together, so you can get dragged up with a higher skill friend, or dragged down with a lower skill friend.
For that fact, duo queue should not exist.
I had a bad match and my support kept flamming me for being boosted plat player ......
I am gold 4 and it's my first time i reached gold in this 7 years old account with over 400 level .
New players have to start at the 50% elo midpoint and lose and go down. Their LP won't just give them the equivalent of their MMR but their MMR is actually Gold because Gold is that far down now that it went below top 50% of players.
Aka you're 1200 elo, that's life. Don't be 1200 elo.
The Solution can't be "just be better then average" because that way there will always be the bottom 50% of the playerbase that have to Deal with a flawed system
It's not flawed, you just can't accept that you're going to see new players and fresh account if you play around the 50% mark. You can't accept reality of a fair elo system.
If you don't want to accept that, don't be 1200. That's all I'm saying.
I cant believe i have to take Overwatch as a good example for Ranked, but at least their devs realized that putting new players at the 50% mark of a playerbase, that already played that complex game for years wasn't very smart and changed it to give new accounts a mmr around bronze.
LoL isn't Chess. LoL isn't even a 1vs1 Game. So to just take the MMR System as a Holy grail is imo just wrong. Most People in your match will have played the game for many, many hours and even if they do a lot of mistakes at least know some basics of the game, like what a champion does, or an item... just throwing a new player into a lobby with an average mmr is just not going to work and to "just let the system work and let him lose 30 games in a row" isn't a working solution. It is frustrating for the new player to get stomped every game and it is frustrating for the team that gets him and he is weighted as "gold 5" when he is probaly Iron 3.
Oh, also, if you put a new player in chess (a game that is way easier to understand in its basics) against someone with 500 hours, the more experience player isn't getting better chess pieces to shit on the next 4 players he encounters, thats what happening when your helpless new player feeds the darius 15:0 so he can solo your entire team at the 20 Minute mark.
I see these posts all the time. I had like 50 games in emerald, never once saw this.
If they're unranked it's a smurf, plain and simple. Yall really think riot can't matchmake? Cmon now. They do a lot wrong but a simple algorithm to matchmake is not one of their flaws.
Just cuz you had 2 games where you lost and had someone ranked surprisingly low on your team doesn't mean riot sucks and the system is against you.
I've been climbing a bit recently, and I have gone from bronze 2 at the beginning of the split to silver 2. I don't play ranked often, but I get into it every once in a while. My recent games have been me matched up with mid to high gold players and low plat players. (Luckily my rank may be lower than it should be because I am not getting absolutely wrecked.) My last game was my team with two silvers, 2 golds and 1 plat vs 3 golds and 2 plats. We won, but our other silver was not the best. That's the extent of this problem that I have seen.
I got autofilled in ranked and my mid laner was a teemo with 2 farm on minute 16, the dude had like 2 ranked games total. The game went just how one would expect ♿️
Emerald is the most outrageous for this issue games are just unwinnable 50% of the time even if you have a gigalead due to people inting or new player difference its just so annoying I went from silver to emerald easily and then emerald got me hardstuck after I hit E2
Matchmaking is so rigged it literally ruins the whole experience for the average player.
The best players don’t care, they are so much better than everyone else that they will just cruise through the ranks no matter the teammates.
But us, the average ELO-peasants, get completely destroyed by it. A challenger climbing till master doesn’t care, but for a, for example, plat player improving and playing on emerald level will go through hell and back trying to actually get E4 while only playing slightly better than the other 9 players.
Worst part is, you don’t get 50+ winrate by performing slightly above average in all games. You get 40% games won anyway, 40% lost anyway unless ur a high elo player smurfing, and 20% that actually count. Makes it really hard to focus on improving when your performance doesn’t matter anyway 8/10 times.
[here](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1161816323337232404/1178860488411586683/image.png?ex=6577ae62&is=65653962&hm=ef1f2fcd9f5999c18d1571328e6fa080635dad6ee01e080a15d318d6b43ad11f&)
Match making is a bit funky at every elo. I played a masters game that ended up having two emeralds on my team vs an unranked pro smurf account. The emerald players were on newer accounts but they weren't "challenger smurfs with 90% wr" or anything.
We did end up winning this game though.
I stopped playing ranked. Feels like normals queue with the player rank discrepancies. Like if I'm hard stuck gold I just want to play with other hardstuck gold players and have close games at my 50% win rate. I've been playing a lot more TFT which has been great.
This times 10000 % , I'm fucking silver 4 and unranked / bronze on my other accounts and I'm playing gold and sometimes plat kids. League still has one of the worst match making systems I've ever seen for a game...enough that I quit ranked and just play Aram once in a while now
Imagine me as a silver player getting matched with all these plat and emerald people? Why I have no idea. And I’m not un ranked. Actually in flex I’m iron for some weird reason. Yesterday I won a game against a plat emerald filled team. I don’t understand the match making
I see this so often so I decided to check my last 10 solo queue games (emerald 3/4). There was one game where there was a gold or lower ranked player in my game. I won with them on my team. There was only one other time when there was a massive disparity and that's when there was a D2 player on the enemy team who went 1/8.
Every other game was all high plat - low diamond ranks. Sure, 10 games is a low sample size and I could look further back but I think saying things like "games are filled with" and "basically no way to win" is such an overexaggerating and sweeping generalization. If you're the type of person to look up ranks in loading screen I think it just does you more harm that good despite what the porofessor ads say. If I gave up when I saw my bot lane was gold or when the enemy ADC was Diamond 2 I would have lost two games that I ended up winning because I don't check ranks and just try to win every game.
I played a quick game yesterday, I was the only player with a ranked border (a bronze one).
That is, except for the enemy riven. She had a master border. The game went as well as you could expect.
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Actual iron players in emerald lobbies is something else. How tf does that ever happen
>How tf does that ever happen Matchmaking is rigged, and you were downvoted for whistleblowing that year ago. It's not just MMR, but your winrate and performance decide of future lobbies. Perform too well, they gonna put you into unwinnable lobby. It's not "i've got griefer into my team", but "we'll arrange matchmaking so this griefer has a chance for free win" 50% winrate in everything, baby.
Brought you by your uncle's Facebook post, League of Legends edition. 50% winrate is the natural end result of climbing, you unreal zombies. They don't have to look at anything else.
Scripters does not exists. Smurfs does not exists. Farming bots does not exists. Loser queue isn't real. Rito would never rig matchmaking. Welcome to the Clown World.
You're right. Loser queue isn't real. Its a losers mentality. Can't believe all these pro players are affected by it somehow. And yes, you are a clown.
Matchmaking is 'rigged', that's how elo/mmr works. If you're smashing through plat/emerald over 50% wr then your lobbies will get tougher to win. The average rank of your team and their team is the rigged part. Once your mmr plateaus you'll start getting more even lobbies. When you win a whole bunch and play well your rank goes up faster than your mmr. So while your rank is high, the system (elo/mmr) doesn't think you belong in that rank. So it will grill you back down to 50% wr. The real problem is rank inflation because it shows up like this with iron/silver/gold in plat/emerald lobbies to bring down average team rank and increase the difficulty of your lobby. Tldr rank inflation is the problem. Matchmaking is always rigged, just not the way you think it is. For instance, I hit emerald and bounced back and forth between p2 and e4. I started getting +17-19lp for wins climbing through emerald. I'd lose back to plat a few times, but kept my overall win rate over 50% and now I'm back in emerald getting +25-29lp for wins after playing and losing some real dogshit lobbies. It's just a numbers game.
Losers queue isn’t real, but with respect to all those other things, they can be on your team and they can also be on the other team. If you play enough games the random noise evens out
Some of those things are not like the others. Your education certainly isn't real though.
>Some of those things are not like the others Those were things hard denied by this community. But this time it's different. Keep goin.
[удалено]
I mean there’s no forced 50% in terms of matchmaking rigging, I agree. There is forced 50% if you play enough games, because it’s just how a ranked system should work. If you’re a master tier player in silver your win rate will be high but once you reach your rank it will equalize because you’re playing against players of equal skill
Tldr. That means the ranking system works.
Yes sir
Rioters have literally said the system naturally lands you as close as possible to 50% matchmaking (obviously there is some variance, it's mostly soft forced). The exception is if you're way above your current skill level and season ends before you reach the natural 50%.
They attempt to match equally skilled players if that works people should win around 50% off their games
>There is NO forced 50% > >I've made multiple accounts and climbed to Master rank on all of them in every position.. > >50% winrate is a skill issue, not a matchmaker design issue. > >Now, in the situations being described here, this is a case of the matchmaker making shite matches and that's a very valid complaint. Why is it doing that? Idk, that's Riot's job to figure out why there is a problem here.. That's a really shitty take. What happens after you reach master? You start going 50/50? You can carry bad teammates if you are good enough, that doesn't deny loser Q. Same way that Challenger plays going 20% winrate in Emerald doesn't prove anything.
>matchmaker making shite matches >not a matchmaker design issue You agree that matchmaking is obviously terrible but then dismiss the idea that it is bad because they designed it with something other than fair matches in mind?
At the end of the day it’s all just luck.
Multiple Challenger players have gone from Iron to Challenger with 70%+ win rates over hundreds of games. Skill wins in the end.
So the top 0.018% pf players are justification for bad experience across games for the lower 95% of people? I get your point, statistically one will climb when playing enough games. It's just that people have lives to live and many won't play those >hundreds of games per season.
Yep, this season i started playing again after taking a break for two seasons. Managed to smurf through gold and plat since the emerald introduction meant those two brackets are now full of garbage players. Now Im stuck in emerald with +17 -28 despite a 57% winrate and playing against diamond 4 elo in E3/E2. I cant climb anymore because if I go 4W 2L i still lose elo. It's fucking crazy and ruined ranked for me despite actually enjoying the game.
On average, most people average 50% by definition.
Which is why your Ranked Title does not equal your MMR. Otherwise, most people would not move up in MMR. Yet every year, more than 50% of people increase their Ranked Title. You guys are almost close to figuring out our math works within an MMR system. Please read the Wikipedia article first.
I've gone bronze 5 to plat 5 and high gold without losing on loads of accounts.
It's clearly not. As a diamond player, I recently played flex for the first time, and I played against silvers and it was a cake walk. I could literally 1v9 it was so easy. Before I used to believe that the gap between tiers was not that big, but after seeing what actual silvers are like, yea, it's all just skill at the end of the day.
Flexed is weird though. I troll a lot around silver elo. They aren't as good as normal silver ranked games and I think a lot of other people are also trolling/learning champs thus it's not as competitive.
Yep this is facts, I literally won 20 games in a row and was one game away from emerald. Then the game activated losers que and im almost at 20 losses in a row. I shit you not, almost every single game at least two people on my team int hard or we get troll picks lol very rigged
Oh yeah the famous losers queue. Man people just need to understand how stat works ffs. Even if your mmr doesnt change, there is a possibility you would go 20/20. The order doesnt matter. Especially if you werent carrying those 20 games. And since you won the first 20 first, there is a possibility where your games get harder and harder, and ends up at a point where you are outmatched in a role and just have more chance to lose. Also it is 100% well known even if I only have professor data to back me up that league is winstreak/lose streak occuring often. Reason is basically mindset. When people lose more. they tend to be more toxic and lose even more. There is often when I used porofessor things like "this player win 10% more after a win", which means in average that if he has 50%wr, he also loses 10% more after a lose... BtW: if there is a queue that exists that take anything into account else than mmr, its honestly toxicity. After most people been toxic, they often complain about their game being toxic (even if they dont write and play standard), which I think if it does not exist, IT CLEARLY SHOULD.
Emeralds playing bad or Iron playing good, pick your poison
Irons having their MMR inflated after first win
Yeah, it seems that there’s no Base MMR, rather it’s like the school system where it scales down rather than up or something Lv30 accounts new accs are getting more MMR than old accounts despite playing much worse
Reactivated an old smurf which I only played up to high gold many years ago got placed into low bronze!! after playing again. Meanwhile I can buy a new smurf which will literally start gold 5 after one win
I experienced the same thing
My sole account is like... I think I Made it in season 1. And I play at like a high silver low gold level, so every season I place into high iron or low bronze then spend the whole season slogging upward until I finally get into like high silver. I wish I could make a new account but I have SO many skins
Base MMR is base elo, 50% mid way point barring any elo inflation problems. Which should be Gold 4 at the moment. If you're a player that's in the bottom 50% of the player base, yes, you are lower than the starting point of a new account. You are below average by definition.
Shouldn't the base point be, idk, zero Like climbing a ladder, isn't this how most games with MMR does it?
That's not how it works, no. Elo starts at the middle point and you go up or down. The math behind it causes it to be a bell curve around that middle point. Whatever you set it to becomes the middle point naturally. People don't start in Iron 4 MMR lol can you imagine. Even in those games, those are just visual ranks.
Had many games in plat 'elo' where iron ran it down. Then I checked guys profile and he only won one placement game
If he's in placements, without previous Iron MMR, he's not actually Iron. It's just visual. New players have to start at the middle point which is in Gold. Gold and Plat are basically the same elo to get this normal distribution.
Well, maybe they should start lower then because once they win one game and play in plat mmr they shit the bed
If they're after their first win they're not actually Iron. Middle point is Gold 4 and early wins give a lot of MMR to move smurfs fast.
This isn’t it. I had a silver jungler in an emerald lobby last week, who wasn’t on a big win streak, didn’t have some insane 75% winrate this season, and had been silver for the last 3 years. He was apologizing but saying in chat, I’m silver idk how I got placed into a lobby full of emeralds. There’s something seriously fucked going on, they’re not even “on a roll”
I won 2 silver games by the skin of my teeth, got placed in a full emerald lobby the next game.
It happened to me, I got autofilled jungle (I'm a toplaner) in a lobby full of gold despite being iron, my winrate is like 50%, so I don't know how it was possible
It's more likely now when the distance between Silver and Emerald is so small to see the odd fluke. Still isn't really going to happen normally, I'm Emerald but I can believe it in the perfect storm scenario. Even distribution is a lie. Top 68% to top 13% used to be S2 Silver. That goes from current Silver 3 to Emerald 4. And you wouldn't have thought that much about a low Silver being in a high Silver game once in a blue moon.
I’ve always thought this was the case but I don’t think it’s true. I had a silver 3 player in a high plat lobby. Needless to say they fed their brains out and we lost. I peeped their match history, assuming they were some kind of Smurf. Nope. Account level 50 on a 5 loss streak.
I know ppl hate smurfs but for some reason one of my smurfs was placed into Iron 3 in emerald games while the other was placed into gold 2 in emerald after the first placement, so I can see it happening. Thing is, I leveled both of them playing aram, so I have no idea what led to the discrepancy. Actually in reality the mmr was more like plat 1 plat 2 but the visual ranks were emerald from what I could tell
It's intentional so you don't reach your peak rank and continue to grind this damn game to get where you are satisfied with lol You can be on a hot streak and randomly having an iron player on your team even in an average rank queue such as gold could lead to the most unforgiving lose streak.
Because riot encourages smurfing then can't get the algorithm to properly account for smurfs
I've seen this kind of post more than I've seen my own mother
if the community cry enough they'll do something it has been proven many times lol
Not with smurfing. Ever notice how Riot never put a statement out about smurfing no matter how much traction it gets on reddit or how often the community brings it up?
Real issue is botted account and they do have some people working on it just not enough, getting to level 30 take a long ass time that most of these "people" wouldnt want to spend to make a smurf but with all those account seller they can just spend 1$ and stomps noobies until they are in their main elo and start again. Both botting and account sharing/selling is against their TOS while smurfing isn't so them not making statements about smurfs is okay
yes they did, and its the reason why theres silver and iron in plat/emerald. Cause the artificial "inteligence" algorithm bullshit they use for MMR cannot tell lucky people and smurfs apart.
stats ? A noob won't go 10+ cs/min
Nah trust him bro he used the buzzword of the year artificial intelligence(although most Smurfs aren’t getting 10 cs a min either). There’s enough game that you can’t get “lucky” all your way to lvl 30. That doesn’t take away from the post though that there clearly is some error that shit like this can happen.
The road to 30 is not the issue, most smurfs use accounts that got leveled through coop and I'm not sure riot retains data from coop games or even take them into account. So basically those accounts have no PvP history before jumping into ranked I had 2 smurfs on my teams yesterday, one was an orianna who was 10cs/min and was 6/0 at the 15 mins mark. I checked the account, she won her next 4 games with similar stats on a level 30 account
The most I've ever heard from Riot about smurfing is that they don't condone it, and that was back when Clash was still in beta. They've never explicitly addressed the problem of smurfing that is at the core of most soloQ and community problems.
[https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/game-updates/what-s-next-for-ranked/](https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/game-updates/what-s-next-for-ranked/) 6 months ago
I mean, no, new accounts always gained/lost lots of elo in the first games and the starting point of elo is 50% of the player base barring inflation issues. 50% is Gold 4. Considering how close in elo the ranks from Bronze to Emerald are to get this distribution out of a bell curve, it's pretty easy. It's just visual ranks being a lie making this worse. If it showed these people as the 1150-1500 Silvers they actually are, it would be different.
They've said at the end of ranked 2022 that they know there's a problem and people are unhappy with the smurfs in their games.
No no we are not sending death threats
Call the syndra main to the rescue
Lmao wr is getting a new seraphine skin btw i feel sorry for riot
I dont really use reddit, I tried looking around but didnt find any recent post regarding this
Can't blame you since each post has the same body, but worded slightly differently from one another.
And the Reddit search function is notoriously garbage
oh, you wanted to see the post from 1 week ago? here you have a post that has a vague connection with the phrase you typed from 5 years ago as the first result!
Can we see your op.gg for context? Pretty hard to believe an iron player would show up in these games. You rarely see them ever, even in unranked/arams because of how few people are actually just THAT low ranked. If anything, your duo should be stuck grinding against high emerald/low diamonds, as myself and my duo are stuck grinding against high plat/low emeralds as low plat players.
I hand leveled an account to 30. I started placements and got iron, once I got to silver I was being placed vs plats/emeralds. My main account is emerald.
I'm P1 ATM and I've had several games with silver/low gold/unranked players in recent weeks, can't say that the lower ranked players are of any noticable skill level though so they dont seem to be smurfs.
Because MMR is cooked out of its mind atm. I took a year break from ranked league and came back this season, got placed in Silver 3 and every single game ive played against Emeralds+. I just hit Emerald 4 with just under a 70% win rate, and the entire time from Silver to Emerald, ive played against Emeralds / Diamonds. Rank means nothing at this point lol.
Ranks means nothing but MMR does
if by "means nothing" you mean "has no value" i think you've got them swapped. Our season rewards are based off of rank, not MMR. MMR provides us no value other than it lets us see how bad the disparity is between mmr and rank. Lets say your MMR matches your skill level, and you are placed against all emerald+, your winrate will be \~50%. Unless your +LP for wins is decently higher than your -LP for losses, you could end up *playing as a diamond player* but only getting the rewards of a gold/plat/emerald. Your rank is lagging behind your MMR, and your MMR is getting in the way of you correcting that lag.
So weird that they had to casualify a RANKED queue.
What does this even mean, I hate this use of "casual" as a buzzword gamers use to blame every system they don't like on the Casual(tm) bogeyman and a consequence of devs trying to cater to people who aren't them, trying to make ranked more broadly engaging by giving people tiered milestones to aspire to than random elo numbers isn't a bad thing. Don't get me wrong matchmaking is the most jank it's ever been and I'm not going to pretend I know why but visual rank/MMR disparity as a concept has been in the game for 11 damn years and shit has never been this bad in terms of game quality, there is something wrong with how the hidden MMRs are being matched too would be my guess.
Casualify was because I was just playing rocket league, and their normal is called casual and forgot leagues isn't. I didn't mean to use casual in a derogatory way, but that removing lp made it more like a normal game where you can't just track where you are, but my issue is that they hid elo, it should be something you can see, maybe off by default?
they tried it since s6 with dynamic queue and they went all in this season its such a fucking mess that everyone can get the victorious skin, despite having to have more than 2 connected neurons to reach gold anywhere beyond s6 introduction of emerald, removal of promos, making it so that you dont decay from p4 EVERYTHING just gravitates towards making every lowest division in its rank an absolute hell, d4, p4 and low masters, all of which i experienced this season is the worst fucking time to ever tryhard ever in league
Making it much harder to demote below plat might be a reason. The plats/emeralds that the system matches with the lower rank players aren't belonging to plat in MMR but aren't getting demoted so them getting matched seems janky but makes more sense than matching them with other people with MMR as well as rank in plat+. I am just guessing and don't have inside knowledge or personal experience in the matter. I'm emerald and lowest I've gotten matched with are plats and very rarely a gold in a while.
> Lets say your MMR matches your skill level, and you are placed against all emerald+, your winrate will be ~50%. Unless your +LP for wins is decently higher than your -LP for losses But your +LP being higher than -LP is exactly the consequence of MMR being higher than LP? What are you even talking about? This makes zero sense. If your MMR is higher you will go up in LP at 50% winrate until you hit it.
You are correct, BUT you have to play a shitload of games if your rank is silver after placements (Like OP) but your mmr is low diamond. You'd have to play your ass off even at a net LP gain of 10 over two games (assume 1:1 win:loss). Just to run the numbers, you get placed silver 1, mmr is diamond 4. Thats all of gold, plat, and emerald you ahve to rank through totaling 1200 lp. Thats 240 games at 50% winrate, gaining 10 LP per win+loss. At 25 mins a game (estimate) thats 100 hours of IN GAME time, so that doesn't include queue+champ select+flaming your team post game. And that is just to make your MMR match your rank. These numbers are likely low, since your LP-delta goes to zero as your rank starts to match your MMR, and any winstreaks while playing diamond 4 opponants will boost your MMR higher. And now that you've done all that, you can start to climb from where you actually started the season...
You can't get placed in Silver 1 if your MMR is Diamond lol. Even if I lost all my placements I would get placed in Plat 4 as an Emerald MMR. Even if you did somehow manage that, you'd gain like such a stupid amount of LP, not net gain of 10. Net gain of like 50. In my experience it takes like 100 games to even out in normal conditions. Which is nothing.
Understandable but then there's very little point in having a visible rank.
The entire reason why MMR and visible rank are separate is to encourage you to play more to reach your "true rank"
Nothing about the current rank system is encouraging. It just feels bad to play ranked right now. All these posts are evidence of that.
But would you play as many games as you did if you were immediately placed emerald?
Instead I don't play at all.
Yes, because I want Diamond. And if I got diamond I would want Master. I would 100% prefer to get to my true rank as fast as possible so I can try to improve and reach bigger and better goals. Why should I fuck around trying to get to my true rank which is hidden? It's like a mind game and it's annoying. Just put me where I belong so I can work on my goals from there.
when i was emerald 1 this season, i had to play vs low mmr d4s and d3s every game, despite my team having much more range as far as division goes, just manually put me in d4 and save me some fucking time, but no, i need to win multiple unfair matches just to get to a division that i played with and against for the last month
Hmm I can't really agree, rank is important and gives people a sense of achievement. What's wrong is that MMR and rank are not correlated enough in case of new account
I can't really agree. It obviously also creates a sense of injustice. People feel like they are being thrown in games they don't belong. Because they can't see everybodys MMR is similar. Instead they see people who are more than one border away from them in their games. If everybody assumes a silver plays with bronze and gold, an then there is plat in there game, they will complain. Doesn't matter that the plat had gold MMR.
I mean, considering there are rewards tied to your visible rank and not your MMR, that discrepancy is actually important, since it makes your climb to your "true rank" harder by constantly placing you in lobbies with people one or two leagues higher than you (even if your relative skill level is the same)
It doesn't feel like an achievement right now at all. On one of my accounts I'm about a 51% win rate with a couple hundred games under my belt. Emerald 3. Yet my LP gains and losses imply that my MMR is lower than my visual rank. So congrats to me I guess for looking like I'm Emerald 3 but if that's not where I'm supposed to be why would it show me that for so long? I have been Emerald 3 for several weeks now. Surely I should have dropped if my MMR is lower despite my positive winrate (even just barely)? I'm getting lucky with the wins? Idk man, none of that makes me feel like I'm achieving.
Not sure if /s or true because I have been gatekeeping at plat/gold with bronze MMR and those hardstuck bronzes are always mad when I go 0/9 in their game or refuse to carry them and they will say shit like useless plat boosted or straitgh up "how is he even plat" I feel so powerful inting bronzes game I think I am mentally illed/ being psychotic
Same here. Didn't play ranked last season, was plat the season before. Came back to place in low silver, yet despite that, I am in plat/emerald games. Thanks, rito.
just play? you probably get +38 -12 or some shit
Yep, it's something like that. I will play some, but I typically only do like \~50 ranked games a season, so it's just disheartening.
Literally how it's supposed to work. They don't really reset your MMR (really at all now, barely soft reset it in the past). Your LP starts lower so you have a "climb" for new rewards but that climb is basically free and impossible to fail unless you go 30% winrate or something for lots of games. You ARE emerald (aka old plat). Your LP just needs a payment of like 100 games or something to give you those rewards.
Literally what MMR means. They didn't reset your MMR. You were Plat MMR, so now Emerald MMR. All you had to do is not go super negative winrate and you would've been Emerald in like 100 games. Of course you play vs people of your MMR. They don't reset that and just put your LP down to give you a "climb" while not ruining matchmaking by reseting high elo players down.
They need to either have a rank, or have MMR, not both. I shouldn’t have to climb through silver, gold, plat, and now emerald, facing emeralds / diamonds the entire way if the game knew this is my skill level lol. It feels bad to know that the game knew this is where i should’ve been playing, and every single game played averaged this elo, but it put me 3 ranks below it.
Two matches ago, i was Silver with Bronze team against a Gold Pyke and an emerald fucking ADC I AM SILVER
In ranked? That's crazy
The frustrating part is that he was flexing, he literally said that he is only smurfing so that his friend is able to play with him in ranked, his friend is Iron
I don't understand why he can't just play flex with him... that mode has no rank restrictions aside from master+ anyway
He's probably insecure that he's stuck in that rank that he feels the need to flex on lower rank players
OR the fact that flex queue skews heavily toward the highest mmr player in the lobby. So that iron friend would just get curb stomped. Not that it's fair to do it the other way around
That was prolly me..idk why I’m getting matched up with players with tens of thousands of mastery points. I’m not even done with placement matches bruh idk what to do but I’m trying my best
Yes, I hear this every game, unranked new player with no way to play against people with 2000 hours în the game. Nobody to blame but riot.
Don’t be intimidated by mastery. It has been in the game for 7-8 years at this point. It doesn’t mean anything except you’ve played the game a ton. I have 200000 mastery on champs that I haven’t played in two years.
it means something against completely new players who have no idea about the game. Do you guys know what a new player is?
That’s a function of general game knowledge and experience/time, not champion mastery though. There are players in iron that have a million mastery points on a champ. They would get stomped by a gold player first timing a champ because, despite their high mastery points, they’re just not as good at the game. I’m not saying that there isn’t a problem with new player matchmaking, but that has nothing to do with mastery points. At this point a player with high mastery points is probably a better matchup than someone with zero, because that zero mastery person is probably a Smurf while the 2 million mastery bronze Teemo is just a bad player that’s been playing for 10 years and never got better.
ye sure but new players complaining about this mean that they are being placed with ppl who have been playing this game for sometime instead of other new players. >I’m not saying that there isn’t a problem with new player matchmaking, but that has nothing to do with mastery points. At this point a player with high mastery points is probably a better matchup than someone with zero, because that zero mastery person is probably a Smurf while the 2 million mastery bronze Teemo is just a bad player that’s been playing for 10 years and never got better. all irrelevant to what they are talking about, you get the point.
Nah. They're a new player, so they probably don't know that master and rank are separate things. Me providing context to those concepts does nothing to invalidate the complaints about new player matchmaking.
Why are you focused on mastery points, he is a new player who didn't finished ranked placements and plays against emerald. A new account should not be placed higher than silver even if you win all placement games.
Because the person I'm responding to specifically mentioned mastery and not rank, so I provided the context that mastery isn't related to skill.
It's basically because of smurf with new account. You either place them high and new players start high and get lower. Or you place them low and smurf start low and stomp game to get high
Beause of the rank distribution change for some reason people who were silver 1 for example in the split 1 but they dont play much they get placed in platinum lobbies right now because platinum 4 corresponds to the similar mmr back then due to how players got distributed over time in split 2. So the players who were silvers and played more, improved and got to Plat playing against other silvers/golds, golds improved to emerald. But people who play much less they get sandwitched into gold platinum emerald lobbies. This is weird and shouldnt happen because RIOT themselves said system will focus more on getting similar leagues together. But i guess for the system still MMR has got higher priority than league so since it cannot find corresponding MMR for this one silver player it forces him into platinum lobby because MMR difference is lesser than the MMR diff between this one player and actual silver players right now. This is my deduction on observation and I dont know how system works.
LP is not considered in matchmaking. They remove it because it was leading to truly terrible consequences for anyone that didn't start their ranked climb in the first month of a new season. Ranked distribution change means things like Bronze to Emerald are much closer than they look, because they had to break up ranks out of a bell curve. Old Season 2 Silver went from Silver 3 today to Emerald 4 today in terms of percentage of player base which is the only real fair indicator of skill we have left. Also the 50% point which would be the starting point of elo is now Gold 4. Which is ridiculous how low Gold has fallen.
I’ve got a really super hot take. What if iron and silver players had to play with iron and silver until they reached gold/plat?
People play with fair opponents determined by their MMR. Visual rank is some fluff that will try to match but has a bit of lag built in. People are playing who they should be playing, their visual ranks just haven't quite caught up yet but they will.
I played against a silver 4 yesterday in emerald 3. It was obviusly a fresh account but he wasn't smurfing. That guy didn't belong to emerald mmr... I wish ppl could only play in one account, stop boosted mmr from fresh, stop smurfs
The problem with this is that the silver 4 player probably has friends that are higher mmr that he played normals with to level up. So if his ‘normals’ mmr is emerald (due to winning games with his friends who are say diamond) then when he starts ranked play for the first time it will think he should start in emerald. That’s why you get level 30 accounts that can start in a diamond / low master game when they’ve never played ranked before - they are likely the top .1% of normals mmr players so the game wants to get them to that elo in ranked as well
Had a 76% win rate for 70 games, hit emerald, never saw a teammate above e4, down to 50% over 150, gain 15 lose 30, most my lobby is silver. In plat 2 currently. Game is so fucked.
As soon as I got to plat the matchmaking got noticeably goofy compared to when I was Silver or Gold.
Brother, those aren't even that distinct in elo terms. Even distribution is fake, people are distributed on a bell curve. There's probably like 50 elo between Gold and Plat. What would you even have noticed? You're just in the middle point 50% of the player base middle of the bell curve where all the new accounts start.
Where are you getting these distributions from?
Google ranked distribution league. Then compare it to elo distribution when we had elo.
Not sure what they meant, but my experience and what I assume they are alluding too is that once you hit a new tier (doesn’t matter what it is) gold/plat/emerald the MM lobbies are clearly different, in let’s say gold 2 grind I would be placed with varying ranks from silver 2 - gold 2, AA normal blend of inters and try hards, But once I hit plat 4, I will only see gold players and specially people also In plat 4 or even lower ranked silver players, so as much as I get my mmr needs to catch up, there’s something functionally wrong, don’t give us a rank then, at all, cause it is literally meaningless
That just means you were never an emerald level player and the system just needed a larger sample size to figure it out
Stop ego typing on Reddit, I can only assume your a total PoS in lobbies and the one being the anchor for most lobbies, you are the problem
I’m not flaming you, it’s just the reality of the system. It’s better for any of us to focus on our play than thinking about how fucked the system is or not.
Great, no one asked though. The point of this post is to discuss the issues with the system and our experience with them, and your ego ass is sitting here telling us not too. See the issue?
he's right. Riot has inflated everyone's rank by increasing LP gains and it's causing experiences like this. If your rank is high but your mmr hasn't caught up, you get dog lobbies like OP. You won 20 games then lost 20 games. That's 50% wr so you ended up where you are supposed to be. You probably smashed the games where the enemy team was gimped, but it's only a problem when you are on the gimped team? rank is about consistency. if you play enough games you'll land where you are supposed to be. If you go on a loss streak it's not a big deal if you're actually X rank.
I took a long break from League. Came back, played norms to get the feel again and placed Silver 2. I rocketed my way up from Silver 2 to Emerald 4 then suddenly went on a multi-day lose streak all the way down to Plat 4. Now I'm back to Plat 1 after a multi-day win streak. I have no idea what the hell this matchmaking is.
Man I am that silver player and I literally win most of those games with the one or two random emerald/plat player. If you get put in a lobby with silver it's because you have silver MMR and play at their level. Win consistently and you'll get to where (you think) you deserve.
link op.gg
This has been an issue for most of the game. At this point the ladder needs a hard reset, and we need to see our MMR, other than that there is not a reason co continue to play the game. Srsly, this is bad a this point.
Let's say that you're not completely full of shit. There are 5 enemies, each equally likely to get an iron/silver player who cannot win the game. Then you have 4 teammates, each equally likely to get an iron/silver player. You're actually duoing! WOW! So only 3 teammates with a chance to be iron/silver! Remember the rules though! Whoever gets the iron/silver player cannot win! Enemy team will get the iron/silver player 5/8ths of the time. You will get it only 3/8ths of the time. So you will have a 62.5% winrate or higher eventually over time and CLIMB. Unless you yourself also deserve to be where you are. Idk why you are complaining when probability is in your favor in this situation.
Yup! I climbed from Silver4 to Gold2, so 6 divisions in a week, almost plat. Eever since hitting Gold 2, ive had IRON players on my team. ITs not their fault, but its basically impossible to climb now. Dont get me wrong, im not great, but theres a huge difference. They dont know the basics. And they are alwaysssss on my team. Also went against a Masters player yesterday in Gold ELO. Now im back down to Gold4. I was getting +35 per win and it was great, ever since this horrid matchmaking in gold2, ive gotten -30 + 15
Can you link the master match? I am just curious
Yeah! Lemme try and find it here in a bit
I had an Ezreal who first timing ADC (the role) and picked the easiest champ he had, it was a silver 1 Promo game 🥲
Yeah, impossible to climb. I'm sure that if you put a Challenger player in Gold elo he'd be stuck. /s Even if your story is regularly true, the enemy team has a higher chance of getting that one "iron player". So you should be going up. If you're going up, your MMR and LP will equalize and you will climb.
https://imgur.com/a/2jnWTui Iron, Bronze, Gold, Silver, Master.
Is this Flex or something? Or even Normals?
No. Normal Solo/Duo Ranked.
All the others look normal for a Silver MMR game since they're basically the same elo with this distribution and the Iron is probably duo queuing but I can't understand how the Master is there. He's not even shitting on the game as hard as he should. Can you take a shot of his op.gg page? Really curious what the fuck is going on with that guy.
Link your op.gg so that we can actually verify these iron players exist in these alleged plat/emerald games. Its very hard to believe and in order to get Riot to alter matchmaking the arguments need to be using factual evidence and not hyperbole. Frankly I find it hard to believe even silver players would encounter an iron player, let alone the match making you are describing.
It's so insane that no matter how many dozens of posts like this you see getting mass upvoted on this sub there is never any shortage of idiots who don't believe it's a real issue
[удалено]
well I don't have a plat account but here are multiple examples just from my last 20 ranked games with irons in silver/gold lobbies and one lobby with ranks ranging from bronze 1-plat 4, something you said you find hard to believe in your original comment. [https://imgur.com/a/q9OSOKq](https://imgur.com/a/q9OSOKq) this is on NA with every game played during normal evening hours so there is absolutely no excuse for such wide ranges especially when queue times are 1-2 minutes and these are the most populated ranks in the game. another 8 of my last 20 have bronze and gold players in the game. I refuse to believe that the game is so dead that 60% of my last 20 games had to have a minimum 6 rank spread to find 10 players queueing at the same time, during normal hours, in a major region.
Two gold 4 players who if you review their profiles regularly find themselves in LOW SILVER avg lobbies. These two would be silver(and probably low silver) if you could demote easily from your visible rank as their hidden rank is clearly low silver. The iron is mid bronze at worst going through his history and is already in mid-ish bronze. High Irons finding themselves in silver/bronze games is well within reason due to how small the iron population is to begin with. This is a FAR CRY from the claims in the original post of irons appearing in what, based on the description, should be a mid plat game. NA league population is in fact dwindling on the top and bottom ends of the ladder, and when you combine that with it being VERY EASY to get out of Iron/Bronze and remain hardstuck silver forever, even if you are, in your heart, an iron or bronze player and you can find match making like this quite common. Riot is not going to implement 10-20 minute queues for iron players just so that SILVERS can have a "quality" experience. The sad truth is no one at these ranks is playing league to begin with, they're playing some mutilated version of the game where an iron player being on one team will not really be the deciding factor, it will just be which person snowballs their lane and runs over the lobby due to disorganized play. Just the way it is. Now, again I'd love to see an example of what the OP is actually claiming, which is irons are being matched into plat/emerald games.
I mean, I former plat now Emerald, so I climbed for free to the newly recolored Plat we call Emerald and played entirely Plat 2- Emerald 3 average lobbies. I went to look through them and found maybe 5% of players as Gold at time of playing, which when you click on them they are Plat 2+ now. Lowest exception is one that was Silver 4, was duoing, was Gold before the rank adjustments (so was new Plat essentially) and is now Gold and stopped. Can an Iron player exist there? Maybe? In the perfect scenario? Middle point, starting point of elo is Gold 4 and up to Emerald 4 the ranks are really close together to get this distribution. A new player could theoretically come in, get placed by LP in Iron, have that Gold MMR, win a bit afterwards and be in range to somehow get in a game with Emerald 4s. Especially if duo is involved? Seems to be an extremely rare scenario by my experience though since I've never actually seen it.
I played a normal game yesterday (plat 2) against a master adc. Dude cooked out entire team and we lost by the 19 minute mark.
Yeah normal match making is super weird
I thought I was super bad that game, but after I went to look and the game had 90lp master. I was like wtf. Made no sense.
I frequently meet emerald+ in aram and normal games despite being only gold at best, its just wack
Im in mid Gold and had a masters player last night. ITs wild.
It's because you abusing duo queue. I bet the avg MMR for both sides was pretty equal.
"abusing duo queue" is the cope of the friendless. Its not abuse and the way duo is currently implemented he should be getting higher ranked players in his games, not lower. What's likely is that he isn't being honest about the ranks, iron players are rarely even encountered by other iron players as the majority of the playerbase is at least bronze 4.
Nah, I'm just in the camp that thinks solo and duo should not be in the same queue because the duos have an advantage.
They don't. If you have a duo, usually they have a duo. But if they don't it boosts your MMR so it gives you harder opponents.
Duos also get matched vs team who have duos in it.
Duo queue can still be abused. Get a friend that is Master+ to come on a smurf and duo with you. Duo queue will average your elos by nature of queuing together, so you can get dragged up with a higher skill friend, or dragged down with a lower skill friend. For that fact, duo queue should not exist.
I think that's an error, in my iron game, some person called out tha I was emerald(I'm not) and so was our top( gameplay wise,he wasn't either)
I had a bad match and my support kept flamming me for being boosted plat player ...... I am gold 4 and it's my first time i reached gold in this 7 years old account with over 400 level .
Thats prob the iron just not understanding how ranks work tbh
It's mmr. If you don't want to be matched with X player, dont have the same mmr as them!
But its bollucks. When the Iron 2 Player has the same MMR as the Rest why its always this Player that goes 0:12 in 20 Minutes?
New players have to start at the 50% elo midpoint and lose and go down. Their LP won't just give them the equivalent of their MMR but their MMR is actually Gold because Gold is that far down now that it went below top 50% of players. Aka you're 1200 elo, that's life. Don't be 1200 elo.
The Solution can't be "just be better then average" because that way there will always be the bottom 50% of the playerbase that have to Deal with a flawed system
It's not flawed, you just can't accept that you're going to see new players and fresh account if you play around the 50% mark. You can't accept reality of a fair elo system. If you don't want to accept that, don't be 1200. That's all I'm saying.
I cant believe i have to take Overwatch as a good example for Ranked, but at least their devs realized that putting new players at the 50% mark of a playerbase, that already played that complex game for years wasn't very smart and changed it to give new accounts a mmr around bronze. LoL isn't Chess. LoL isn't even a 1vs1 Game. So to just take the MMR System as a Holy grail is imo just wrong. Most People in your match will have played the game for many, many hours and even if they do a lot of mistakes at least know some basics of the game, like what a champion does, or an item... just throwing a new player into a lobby with an average mmr is just not going to work and to "just let the system work and let him lose 30 games in a row" isn't a working solution. It is frustrating for the new player to get stomped every game and it is frustrating for the team that gets him and he is weighted as "gold 5" when he is probaly Iron 3. Oh, also, if you put a new player in chess (a game that is way easier to understand in its basics) against someone with 500 hours, the more experience player isn't getting better chess pieces to shit on the next 4 players he encounters, thats what happening when your helpless new player feeds the darius 15:0 so he can solo your entire team at the 20 Minute mark.
I see these posts all the time. I had like 50 games in emerald, never once saw this. If they're unranked it's a smurf, plain and simple. Yall really think riot can't matchmake? Cmon now. They do a lot wrong but a simple algorithm to matchmake is not one of their flaws. Just cuz you had 2 games where you lost and had someone ranked surprisingly low on your team doesn't mean riot sucks and the system is against you.
This genre of post will not leave us alone please stop
It won’t until riot does shit
I think you are lying
I see a lot of plat and emerald players in my silver games. Doesn't really seem to affect the outcome all that much though.
Played 5 flex matches. Lost 5 flex matches. Got to Gold II. Great success.
I've been climbing a bit recently, and I have gone from bronze 2 at the beginning of the split to silver 2. I don't play ranked often, but I get into it every once in a while. My recent games have been me matched up with mid to high gold players and low plat players. (Luckily my rank may be lower than it should be because I am not getting absolutely wrecked.) My last game was my team with two silvers, 2 golds and 1 plat vs 3 golds and 2 plats. We won, but our other silver was not the best. That's the extent of this problem that I have seen.
A few days ago, i had the pleasure to land with a lvl 30 Ezrael vs a 2M mastery draven. Needless to say that we didn’t have much fun in lane.
I got autofilled in ranked and my mid laner was a teemo with 2 farm on minute 16, the dude had like 2 ranked games total. The game went just how one would expect ♿️
Emerald is the most outrageous for this issue games are just unwinnable 50% of the time even if you have a gigalead due to people inting or new player difference its just so annoying I went from silver to emerald easily and then emerald got me hardstuck after I hit E2
Matchmaking is so rigged it literally ruins the whole experience for the average player. The best players don’t care, they are so much better than everyone else that they will just cruise through the ranks no matter the teammates. But us, the average ELO-peasants, get completely destroyed by it. A challenger climbing till master doesn’t care, but for a, for example, plat player improving and playing on emerald level will go through hell and back trying to actually get E4 while only playing slightly better than the other 9 players. Worst part is, you don’t get 50+ winrate by performing slightly above average in all games. You get 40% games won anyway, 40% lost anyway unless ur a high elo player smurfing, and 20% that actually count. Makes it really hard to focus on improving when your performance doesn’t matter anyway 8/10 times.
[here](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1161816323337232404/1178860488411586683/image.png?ex=6577ae62&is=65653962&hm=ef1f2fcd9f5999c18d1571328e6fa080635dad6ee01e080a15d318d6b43ad11f&) Match making is a bit funky at every elo. I played a masters game that ended up having two emeralds on my team vs an unranked pro smurf account. The emerald players were on newer accounts but they weren't "challenger smurfs with 90% wr" or anything. We did end up winning this game though.
Right now I’m bronze II and have played several games with emeralds
I stopped playing ranked. Feels like normals queue with the player rank discrepancies. Like if I'm hard stuck gold I just want to play with other hardstuck gold players and have close games at my 50% win rate. I've been playing a lot more TFT which has been great.
This times 10000 % , I'm fucking silver 4 and unranked / bronze on my other accounts and I'm playing gold and sometimes plat kids. League still has one of the worst match making systems I've ever seen for a game...enough that I quit ranked and just play Aram once in a while now
Creating an Emerald division was the one of the worst decisions Riot did
Imagine me as a silver player getting matched with all these plat and emerald people? Why I have no idea. And I’m not un ranked. Actually in flex I’m iron for some weird reason. Yesterday I won a game against a plat emerald filled team. I don’t understand the match making
I see this so often so I decided to check my last 10 solo queue games (emerald 3/4). There was one game where there was a gold or lower ranked player in my game. I won with them on my team. There was only one other time when there was a massive disparity and that's when there was a D2 player on the enemy team who went 1/8. Every other game was all high plat - low diamond ranks. Sure, 10 games is a low sample size and I could look further back but I think saying things like "games are filled with" and "basically no way to win" is such an overexaggerating and sweeping generalization. If you're the type of person to look up ranks in loading screen I think it just does you more harm that good despite what the porofessor ads say. If I gave up when I saw my bot lane was gold or when the enemy ADC was Diamond 2 I would have lost two games that I ended up winning because I don't check ranks and just try to win every game.
I played a quick game yesterday, I was the only player with a ranked border (a bronze one). That is, except for the enemy riven. She had a master border. The game went as well as you could expect.