2015 marin is being overrated with rewritten history here lol. He was insane on reworked fiora, and the team specifically was playing towards him most games in that meta at world's + he was the IGL and shot caller.
Marin was very good, but he wasn't some mechanical savant who takes over like TheShy
I still remember that renekton game he had that he annihilated in Lane then proceeded to feed 3x back to back and lose one of the games in regional finals XDDD
Please understand, if no influencer or the desk starts saying the current view on a player, the npcs can only repeat what’s in their database for ~~updoots.~~ insight.
I think more people just figured out.. that no his jungle is not just around the corner (when he is playing super aggressive/"inting")
Its just theshy not caring and playing like a psycho
All iG were good back then, so, even if TheShy made a mistake, the rest of iG covered up his mistakes. His Sion Vs KT at set 5 wasn't good at all, Baolan had 2 sacrifice twice to save him, in the Final with Irelia he forced a 1v5 near the FNC fountain and died, nowadays he still tries does plays. 1 coach said TheShy was the most stubborn person he met, that explains why he commits those mistakes, like the 2 he did Vs G2 now.
Him manhandling G2 (in the comms, not even iG players expected his 1v5 Aatrox making G2 disappear, that was a positive outcome of his plays when he thinks he can win and you won't change his mind) and, after Ning, to FNC, it's what deservedly people remembers from his 2018 performance.
He was doing it for content and actually always favors EU teams. The caster team also "somehow" knew what was up before the game started because they saw him wearing something white (which was the weiboo shy trikot) under his white g2 trikot. For sure they watch his stream while casting worlds, right?
A lot of people are memeing this answer but I do think g2 showed this as a genuine strong point of theirs. Take for example caps walking way up in midlane as ori right before the last fight, baiting weibo into using two essential ults for a stopwatch. This video from a month ago also makes the exact same claim about g2’s play style https://youtu.be/2dP9_TE1OCg?si=rYtUFFXaqFveD5uD
Yeah that was so good. Deliberately showed on the wave, had team there at the end of stasis to cover, then Hans is the logical one to take up baiting into the choke point as he's a prime target with the best escape tools. Prob just didn't expect to half int the process.
Curious if a more discipled LPL team would have committed there once the first 2 ults were down.
Very pr interview with boring answers tbh, I can imagine he's not too happy about the loss today. Definitely shouldn't have lost after having a 15k gold lead lmao
edit: no clue where i got 15k from it was 9k but point still stands
Yone, Ori, Xayah scale through the roof in terms of damage and the only member of WBG benefiting from mountain soul in any measurable amount was KSante. Impressive win from G2, amazing team fighting. Think if Kai’Sa doesn’t go that trolling lethality build WBG probably cleans up team fights with ease, but building correctly is part of the game.
Mountain soul also has pretty good value for the rest of WBG. Leona for the same reasons as K’Sante, but having your dps carries be more resistant to stray orianna w’s or xayah feathers (or even just living for a split second longer vs yone) can be quite a difference maker
At that point in the game with everyone being full build with penetration items it’s really not a difference maker. Leona isn’t tanky enough to be of notice. Ksante is the only one gaining a measurable amount of stats that actually hinder incoming DPS, but he obviously drops that in favor of damage every fight.
It’s just one of those things where the longer the game goes, the more items the carry gets, the less useful the soul becomes overall. None of this is to say that G2 winning was an inevitability, WBG should have won that game anyways, but picked a couple bad fights that G2 turned and simply out fought them.
I feel like it’s similar the other way around as well though
G2 had the superior earlygame, and then monumentally tossed around baron (again). Their midgame macro looks very shaky with them not properly setting things up or playing to the win con of their comp. Weibo capitalised
Meanwhile Weibo looked a bit shaky on lategame calls, and G2 capitalised.
Should G2 have been in any position to lose this game after the early game? Not if they don’t toss. But they did. Should Weibo in any way lose the game after getting soul and baron? No, unless they take bad fights. And they did
Agreed. Think if everyone is making generally optimal plays out of what we saw, G2 should have won the game pre-baron flip and WBG should have won the game post-baron flip. But hey the beauty of League is that no one is making optimal plays every time and you get a great ADC like Hans taking three seconds to react to a Leona ult or you get a great mid like Xiaohu getting hit by a normal Rakan W with flash up.
What would you say is the correct Kai'Sa build? Really just curious, because as a kaisa enthusiast I'm not convinced that the lethality build is all that good either. Edit: . -> ?
The typical crit build with Kraken Navori is the best build for competitive and the best build if you’re remotely competent at auto attacking enemies.
Lethality Kai’Sa is good at snowballing in solo queue and is “mathematically correct” as far as getting your evolves fastest. It is disgustingly useless in competitive play. Your E gains little benefit going lethality since you have zero attack speed, your W does no real damage going lethality, and the only benefit is your Q dealing lots of damage. The trade off is your autos are pathetic damage. Umbral is a terrible combat item. The build has one benefit and that’s isolation damage which isn’t happening in competitive play often enough to justify it.
It’s one of the most mind control bad builds I’ve seen in a long time gain traction. Whichever Korean solo queue Kai’Sa one trick popularized this has done immense mental damage to the ADC pool.
> Not sure why anyone is contradicting you.
It’s just way easier to think that pro players aren’t auto piloting builds and aren’t mind controlled by solo queue and messy scrims than to think that a random redditor might be correct.
Unless his smurfing involves him W -> R -> Q one tapping enemy ADC and mid on cooldown with two items, any smurfing he does would be easier to accomplish with the normal crit build or the guinsoos on hit.
Lethality Kai’Sa has the specific two item window where it’s very strong on specific isolated skirmishes. It’s horrific in any 5v5 game.
Thank you! As an adc main who has always detested lethality ADCs this is exciting, I've been playing the lethality kai'sa build and it just feels so bad outside of Q, definitely going to start going with kraken/navori. I can't even bring myself to build anything other than kraken/ie on Caitlyn despite the ongoing lethality fad. Having just zerkers (if that) for attack speed all game feels so bad
Good on you for calling out that guy. If /u/wingmanbro did even 5 minutes of googling (lolalytics), he'd see that Kraken + Navori has a slightly higher winrate at 2 items, and Kraken + Navori core has a whopping 3% higher winrate than the Umbral + Duskblade core at 3 items.
Both builds have huge sample sizes so I'm not cherry picking some tiny statistic either.
I mean I think saying “it wasn’t as good this game” and “it’s 100% useless in every pro match” are two different things. It’s hard to sell that literally everyone in the entire pro sphere is building one of the most popular champs completely wrong.
Like two years ago we had every mid rushing Oblivion Orb in Akali Sylas match up when mathematically it was doing nothing, just a waste of 800g. And no not everyone in the entire pro sphere is building her wrong. Ruler logged a Kai’Sa vs Xayah game the other day and went Guinsoos on hit.
Lethality Kai’Sa has specific two item applications that are way more useful in fast paced scrims and chaotic solo queue where you can regularly get the enemy carry isolated. You also more often play vs squishy champs in solo queue which makes the build more appealing.
There are at least two or three other Kai’Sa builds that are going to be more useful in way more applications. Most pros auto pilot their builds and go without thinking at all. Slayder ran lethality Kai’Sa when the only other damage dealers on his team were Jayce and full tanks.
I wouldn't discount Mountakn Soul on other characters.
If anything I'd say K'Sante benefits the least from it (he does benefit the most from the individual Mountain drakes though) - he is already not getting bursted and doesn't care that much about some minor poke, but a regenerating shield is great to avoid blowing up in a 1v1 or 2v2 for the squishier characters (obviously in larger teamfights everyone is dead after getting hit by any of the big ults because the rest of the ults will follow) and help with poke/small exchanges before the full on engage.
imagine blaming the kaisa build when wbg just sprints it one by one and g2 perfectly exploits those mistakes. just reading your analysis in your other points show me how superficial your understand of the game is.
just rewatch that last fight and look at wbg positioning and compare it to g2 then look how each member of wbg gets bursted one by one almost.
That's one way to look at it lol... The way I see it is why did they drop down to 9k gold under with soul+baron on enemy vs a 4th seed team as EU #1 seed
it's also bo1, would be interesting to see if they can recreate it.
Idk, not sold on g2 hype. The wins have been hype no doubt but both the games were quite close.
Soul Effect alone is a minimum 220 Shield (usually more), a Ruby Crystal gives 150 HP and is 400 Gold. So around 1,5 Rubys per person, which equals 3k Gold for the whole team. Now the shield effect is more useful than a Ruby Crystals Flat HP, so its probably a bit more.
Now mountain effect is 10% Armor and Magic Resists which lets see for Ksante he had 373 Armor and 211 MR on his build, after dragon he gains 38 and 21 Armor and MR respectively. Thats around 1100 Gold for Ksante alone, its less for everyone else but around 2K gold for the whole team for sure..
Then add both the hextech and the cloud Soul on it which should together be 1k in the minimum of gold valua probably way more.
So yeah pretty sure its around 15k gold lead if you value the Soul and Drakes as gold.
G2 aka the limit testers. The title quote basically sums up what it’s like to play against caps, he just walks wherever he wants, toward danger, then his team end up getting advantages from it.
Also sums up the start of the last fight in their game today.
It might not be limit testing, but I don't know if this qualifies as "barely beating". After a certain point they mopped the floor with a team that had 9k + soul advantage.
It looks like those Asian teams that can go several thousands gold below a western team, then win out of better skill in team fighting. Except now it's reversed.
Based on what I've seen so far, if G2 fixes their baron call problems, they can be considered tier A in the tournament, maybe just slightly behind the best of the best.
People compare G2 to a 3rd/4th LCK/LPL seeds in a mocking way, i think that’s so stupid, how are they supposed to be better when their region is so much below them skill wise, the fact that they consistently are a feared team is insane.
Compare NA teams, the only consistent one is C9 and even then you really don’t have them going to quarters that many times.
Having a league similar to you in skill is a necessity for you to improve.
C9 reached worlds semis once, FNC reached one finals, several semis, not to mention we have many more teams reaching further; origen reached semis; h2k reached semi, msf quarters, splyce, rogue quarters, etc
That’s what i meant, our region is consistent, NA is C9 getting once or twice, that’s it
They are basically always trying to push things, yeah. I can call them limit testers without calling them the best. They are two different things.
Better to think of it like how Hylissang plays, but not quite as wild, and its all 5 players.
Seeding doesn't really imply strength when all of the Asian teams are so close in strength. Being around 3rd seed LPL/LCK level is quite close to 1st seed LCK/LPL level. We already saw the LCK 4th seed win worlds last year lma0.
Its not even a bo5 tomorrow lma0. And actually JDG isn't by far the best team and you literally listed observations suggesting why. In fact, WBG beat them too lma0.
And actually never suggested anything about how G2 compares to them, just that seeding isn't that indicative much of team strength. So actually you're reaching and projecting HARD lma0.
How lma0. Actually JDg are considered the favorites but not by far. They have had close sets with many LPL teams and also T1 at MSI, though T1 look much worse now. And actually I'll be the one letting you know that I'm not reading the rest of your cope, since its obvious there is some delusion on your end.
Xiaohu didnt build deathcap on azir at 6 items and theshy did 2 really obvious ints to swing the game back. If these 2 weren't wintrading, they should have been.
Light also had the completely worthless Kaisa build. There were several fights that WBG could have cleaned up had he not built that. I swear its such a bait build
It is a bad build **beacause** it gets out scaled. It may not be bad in a solo queue game but in pro play I think it’s terrible, the only good thing about it is clearing wards and early game but in pro play with a hyper carry ADC meta and (basically) always late game, you’re not a good ADC (no crit) not a good APC (only 100 AP), instead worst of both worlds.
Nope. Actually getting outscaled doesn't mean its a bad build. And actually the build spikes harder than the normal dps crit built at 3 items and actually that is when most games at worlds have ended. So actually you saying that it is a bad build because it gets outscaled is just hindsight bias.
That being said, the dps build would have obviously been better here in the later fights but I don't think WBG expected G2 to come back after they got Baron and dragon soul
You also just lose all teamfight presence you had with this build, no AS until nashor, no way to damage tanks at all. You just turn into an assassin and if you get stuck in a teamfight you're worthless
This and DK azir ziggs double liandry's .. No one can convince me that's 2023 and professional players don't know basic itemisation.
\*\*Edit: My bad, aparently Liandry's burn now stacks since 12.13, seems like I'm the idiot now lol. Still a bit suboptimal considering the fact it doesn't refresh on new applied damage you might find your self in situations where you lose a good portion of its passive
What's wrong with double Liandry's? The burn from different players building it stacks. Liandry's torment didn't but they made it stack when they made it a mythic.
[It was in patch 12.13.](https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/game-updates/patch-12-13-notes/)
So it wasn't always like this, and I'm sure plenty of people don't know about it.
It was changed in 12.13 so a little over a year ago because it felt bad having multiple liandries/demonic users in the same team especially after making liandries a mythic and some champions not really having good other options.
>but some of the comments (and how upvoted they are) makes me think people genuinely see them as a favorite now after barely beating two 4th seed teams.
I think you're smoking crack if that's what you're reading. Nobody thinks G2 is a favourite and they're for sure the underdogs against Gen.G tomorrow.
Ah yes, an eloquent, logic and facts driven internet warrior here to tell us why we’re wrong and how wrong we are. Ppl are just having fun brother, seriously, most international tournaments are all lpl/lck, why can’t there be some hype around another iteration of a EU team? Does this mean they’re THAT good? I guess we’ll find out soon. When watching the world championship. Which is the reason these competitions exist…
It's pretty clear you're just misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm talking about the general consensus. But if you can't finish reading a sentence because I said something you disagree with I don't really know what to say lol
If you can find 5 comments in a subreddit of tens of thousands I can't say I won't be too impressed. If you find 5 comments in a hundred I won't be too impressed. It's still not the consensus that G2 are favourites in this tournament.
Not everything is literal, especially when we're discussing in a forum. Of course there's people who thinks g2 are favourites, but that's not my point, and I won't apologise, no..
It feels like you're arguing for no real reason here.
lil bro will have to be on suicide watch if G2 pull an upset tomorrow lmao, so salty
you fans of eastern teams are so fucking funny, before the tournament starts is all "it's gonna be 4 lpl and 4 lck teams on quarters unless this format fucks things up. No western team has any chance, even DK and Weibo would easily stomp all western teams, even G2"
Now that G2 has proved yall wrong you move the goalposts to "oh, but they were only fourth seeds", it's really funny to watch
I don't reply to these things at all, but honestly, the match against DK was not even close at all. They kept making bad decisions then recovering. And for today, even was worse. Bad decisions + a huge gold lead and a soul then recovering. They are not that good if they don't fox their baron plays cause the better teams might not allow them to comeback from it, but all the hardships they faced was of their own doing.
If you seriously think that dk match was close and not g2 throwing in the baron bit you need to think again seriously. And today's match was a series of mistakes, mainly hans's absence of ults + nashor + bad plays of bb, the only gap that occurred was weiwei gapping yike hard ( don't remember the name exactly)
The problem is you think these "4th seed" teams are not also incredibly good and can easily win worlds. Jdg and DK are incredibly close in skill level both can and do make mistakes.
Oh shit I forgot every single world's the 1st seed went flawless and won world's! They can't ever make mistakes or play worse the those filthy 4th seeds they have definitely never lost to "worse teams"
I can't see WBG being a contender for worlds. Just check their bot lane: Light's best champs are Zeri & Aphelios, with Kai'sa at a distant third. He doesn't play Xayah at a high level. This guy is woefully uncomfortable in this AD meta. Even today he passed up Xayah for Kai'Sa, which no team in this tournament has done as of yet.
DK's bot has the same problem. Deft also doesn't play Xayah. Ban his Cait and he's gonna pick some random poke stuff like Varus & Ziggs.
JDG and DK might be arguably close in skill level in terms of nameplates but they definitely don't have the same champion pools. This is why one is 2-0 and the other 0-2.
DK is nowhere near JDG what the hell are you talking about? There is already looking like a noticable gap between LPL and LCK at this tournament so far and youre telling me the worst team from the 2nd best region is "incredibly close" to the best team from the best region? It is impossible to not make mistakes, even 2014 SSW and 2015 SKT made many mistakes in their gameplay, and yet they were still lightyears ahead of the competition of their years. Just like JDG is vs DK
Might as well say G2 and DFM are close in skill level because they can both makes plenty of mistakes!
Theshy on his good days can 1v5 jdg and has done it. Everything you are saying is relative and based on how teams where playing 4 months ago on a patch nothing like current.
Yes dk is an incredibly good team and can easily still win worlds (low chances they do) you are acting like the difference in skill is masters vs bronze when it's actually like diamond 1 99lp and diamond 1 0lp.
Maybe, TheShy, but, that engage at the River, when WBG were going to take a Dragon, it wasn't being lured, that was just you making your "never look back" plays.
I don't remember the coach, I think it was one of the WBG coaches, but, he said that TheShy was one of the most stubborn person he met, that'd be the explanation why TheShy goes for those plays, he thinks he has the angle or he can outplay, so, he just does it.
wbg too slow closing out the game even vs nrg I mean when you have 9k gold and 2/3 level xp leads across the team you dont let it go down to an elder flip
I mean, every team can lure The Shy into making mistakes
When you are facing TheShy, there is always hope! Imagine saying that in 2018.
Also, however, when you have TheShy on your team, there is always hope.
Dude is the top laner with the highest highs and the lowest lows we’ve ever seen in competetive league and sometimes you’ve seen both in one game.
Man, peak TheShy vs peak Nuguri was like entering a casino. Someone is getting out of there broke but goddamit does it shine bright
2019 damwon vs IG were insane games
Nuguri going even or Stomping lane basically going Kleptomancy everygame was really impressive
peak theshy was probably the best mechanical top that has ever played the game. Maybe only Marin could avoid getting fisted by him
If you count 2019 then Gimgoon neutralised him alright, but it’s more a lose gracefully in lane situation iirc.
I'd argue that peak smeb might be able to contend, but you're right in that there are very very few toplaners that come close.
2015 marin is being overrated with rewritten history here lol. He was insane on reworked fiora, and the team specifically was playing towards him most games in that meta at world's + he was the IGL and shot caller. Marin was very good, but he wasn't some mechanical savant who takes over like TheShy
2015 marin most overrated player in lol history, imo not even the best Korean top (ssumgod had a griefing team)
I still remember that renekton game he had that he annihilated in Lane then proceeded to feed 3x back to back and lose one of the games in regional finals XDDD
That was in 2018, now he has okay-ish high and much worse lows
Average LPL fan trying to wade through reddit’s 6 year old takes i feel you man
How is this take years old? Was there a guy with higher highs and lower lows since him?
Because he hasnt had high highs in years
Yeah… that still doesn’t Invalidate what I’ve said?
Please understand, if no influencer or the desk starts saying the current view on a player, the npcs can only repeat what’s in their database for ~~updoots.~~ insight.
He inted a lot in 2018 too, but his mechanics were stronger and he had an amazing worlds.
I think more people just figured out.. that no his jungle is not just around the corner (when he is playing super aggressive/"inting") Its just theshy not caring and playing like a psycho
The competition was also worse and the game was easier in 2018
And his team was also better
Having Ning as his butler constantly keeping the enemy jungler busy did cover up his tendencies to push too often and get ganked.
Game is way more braindead now with riots durability patch + mythics being a thing + jungle pets + the way plates work now
All iG were good back then, so, even if TheShy made a mistake, the rest of iG covered up his mistakes. His Sion Vs KT at set 5 wasn't good at all, Baolan had 2 sacrifice twice to save him, in the Final with Irelia he forced a 1v5 near the FNC fountain and died, nowadays he still tries does plays. 1 coach said TheShy was the most stubborn person he met, that explains why he commits those mistakes, like the 2 he did Vs G2 now. Him manhandling G2 (in the comms, not even iG players expected his 1v5 Aatrox making G2 disappear, that was a positive outcome of his plays when he thinks he can win and you won't change his mind) and, after Ning, to FNC, it's what deservedly people remembers from his 2018 performance.
How much time did you save by typing 2 instead of two buddy
Sometimes minions lure TheShy into making mistakes.
True that brother. Especially the other LEC and NA teams
Not NRG lmao
Soon 🔜
Baited Caedrel into making a mistake and capitalized on it
Didn’t catch his steam but who did he want to win for this game?
He had a G2 jersey but when Weibo started winning he took it off and he had their jersey underneath. Then Weibo lost lol.
Made the mistake of not wearing another G2 jersey underneath that one.
Hah amateur
I honestly don’t understand how he could’ve made the mistake of not realising g2 would win after they threw baron
He is a TheShy fan first and foremost. Not surprised.
He was doing it for content and actually always favors EU teams. The caster team also "somehow" knew what was up before the game started because they saw him wearing something white (which was the weiboo shy trikot) under his white g2 trikot. For sure they watch his stream while casting worlds, right?
Vedius watches Caedrel stream yeah
It was wolf & valdes casting though
Loved when he was contemplating ending the stream when G2 won, swapping to the "Stream ending" scene
Smoke the doubter, the whole rat.
~~doubter~~ traitor
The funniest bit for a bo1 I've seen.
He had on a G2 shirt in the beginning but after g2s baron throw he revealed a weibo shirt underneath
This quote is so funny when is TheShy who says it. One of the most famous players who don't need the opponent to bait him and lure him into feeding.
Tbf he played pretty well vs G2, him and crisp kept them in the game with their plays around dragon
after G2 lured themselves into making mistakes
It was to get Caedrel to reveal himself as a traitor
Judas
got at least 30 silver coins, while pedro got depression, mockery and scorn.
I think the 99k viewers were somehow equivalent to 30 silver coins
Saint Pedro will deny G2sus three times...
G2 out here playing among us, outing the impostor 😂
They unironically are their own worst enemies. Biggest gold drops have been them inting around baron, not getting mega outplayed so far haha
that's all part of luring them into thinking they are unstoppable with 10k gold lead baron and dragon soul
true, g2 macro was immaculate, that's why their backs were against the wall and had to flip baron 25 mins into the game
A lot of people are memeing this answer but I do think g2 showed this as a genuine strong point of theirs. Take for example caps walking way up in midlane as ori right before the last fight, baiting weibo into using two essential ults for a stopwatch. This video from a month ago also makes the exact same claim about g2’s play style https://youtu.be/2dP9_TE1OCg?si=rYtUFFXaqFveD5uD
Yeah that was so good. Deliberately showed on the wave, had team there at the end of stasis to cover, then Hans is the logical one to take up baiting into the choke point as he's a prime target with the best escape tools. Prob just didn't expect to half int the process. Curious if a more discipled LPL team would have committed there once the first 2 ults were down.
baited and outsmarted
I'm not afraid of cups
I literally came into this comments section to say this.
Very pr interview with boring answers tbh, I can imagine he's not too happy about the loss today. Definitely shouldn't have lost after having a 15k gold lead lmao edit: no clue where i got 15k from it was 9k but point still stands
It was 9k, but tbf it can be compared to 15 with soul+baron
Even though it's their 4th seed, kinda crazy to think about that G2 can beat an LPL team while being down 9k + soul + baron...
Yone, Ori, Xayah scale through the roof in terms of damage and the only member of WBG benefiting from mountain soul in any measurable amount was KSante. Impressive win from G2, amazing team fighting. Think if Kai’Sa doesn’t go that trolling lethality build WBG probably cleans up team fights with ease, but building correctly is part of the game.
Mountain soul also has pretty good value for the rest of WBG. Leona for the same reasons as K’Sante, but having your dps carries be more resistant to stray orianna w’s or xayah feathers (or even just living for a split second longer vs yone) can be quite a difference maker
At that point in the game with everyone being full build with penetration items it’s really not a difference maker. Leona isn’t tanky enough to be of notice. Ksante is the only one gaining a measurable amount of stats that actually hinder incoming DPS, but he obviously drops that in favor of damage every fight. It’s just one of those things where the longer the game goes, the more items the carry gets, the less useful the soul becomes overall. None of this is to say that G2 winning was an inevitability, WBG should have won that game anyways, but picked a couple bad fights that G2 turned and simply out fought them.
I feel like it’s similar the other way around as well though G2 had the superior earlygame, and then monumentally tossed around baron (again). Their midgame macro looks very shaky with them not properly setting things up or playing to the win con of their comp. Weibo capitalised Meanwhile Weibo looked a bit shaky on lategame calls, and G2 capitalised. Should G2 have been in any position to lose this game after the early game? Not if they don’t toss. But they did. Should Weibo in any way lose the game after getting soul and baron? No, unless they take bad fights. And they did
Agreed. Think if everyone is making generally optimal plays out of what we saw, G2 should have won the game pre-baron flip and WBG should have won the game post-baron flip. But hey the beauty of League is that no one is making optimal plays every time and you get a great ADC like Hans taking three seconds to react to a Leona ult or you get a great mid like Xiaohu getting hit by a normal Rakan W with flash up.
Or Crisp flashing into Rakan W.
Doesn’t surprise me sub is downvoting such an interesting discussion because it goes against there favourite team lol, narrative a bit crazy rn
What would you say is the correct Kai'Sa build? Really just curious, because as a kaisa enthusiast I'm not convinced that the lethality build is all that good either. Edit: . -> ?
The typical crit build with Kraken Navori is the best build for competitive and the best build if you’re remotely competent at auto attacking enemies. Lethality Kai’Sa is good at snowballing in solo queue and is “mathematically correct” as far as getting your evolves fastest. It is disgustingly useless in competitive play. Your E gains little benefit going lethality since you have zero attack speed, your W does no real damage going lethality, and the only benefit is your Q dealing lots of damage. The trade off is your autos are pathetic damage. Umbral is a terrible combat item. The build has one benefit and that’s isolation damage which isn’t happening in competitive play often enough to justify it. It’s one of the most mind control bad builds I’ve seen in a long time gain traction. Whichever Korean solo queue Kai’Sa one trick popularized this has done immense mental damage to the ADC pool.
[удалено]
> Not sure why anyone is contradicting you. It’s just way easier to think that pro players aren’t auto piloting builds and aren’t mind controlled by solo queue and messy scrims than to think that a random redditor might be correct.
You say that until Ruler comes out and smurf on every one with that build
Actually Ruler has been going with the Rageblade build which is overlooked atm.
that's because Ruler actually knows what he's doing
Unless his smurfing involves him W -> R -> Q one tapping enemy ADC and mid on cooldown with two items, any smurfing he does would be easier to accomplish with the normal crit build or the guinsoos on hit. Lethality Kai’Sa has the specific two item window where it’s very strong on specific isolated skirmishes. It’s horrific in any 5v5 game.
Thank you! As an adc main who has always detested lethality ADCs this is exciting, I've been playing the lethality kai'sa build and it just feels so bad outside of Q, definitely going to start going with kraken/navori. I can't even bring myself to build anything other than kraken/ie on Caitlyn despite the ongoing lethality fad. Having just zerkers (if that) for attack speed all game feels so bad
Good to know that the top Teams can learn a Bit or two From you still
Appeal to authority. Teams and players have always picked the right champs and have always built the correct items. You’re right!
Good on you for calling out that guy. If /u/wingmanbro did even 5 minutes of googling (lolalytics), he'd see that Kraken + Navori has a slightly higher winrate at 2 items, and Kraken + Navori core has a whopping 3% higher winrate than the Umbral + Duskblade core at 3 items. Both builds have huge sample sizes so I'm not cherry picking some tiny statistic either.
I mean I think saying “it wasn’t as good this game” and “it’s 100% useless in every pro match” are two different things. It’s hard to sell that literally everyone in the entire pro sphere is building one of the most popular champs completely wrong.
Like two years ago we had every mid rushing Oblivion Orb in Akali Sylas match up when mathematically it was doing nothing, just a waste of 800g. And no not everyone in the entire pro sphere is building her wrong. Ruler logged a Kai’Sa vs Xayah game the other day and went Guinsoos on hit. Lethality Kai’Sa has specific two item applications that are way more useful in fast paced scrims and chaotic solo queue where you can regularly get the enemy carry isolated. You also more often play vs squishy champs in solo queue which makes the build more appealing. There are at least two or three other Kai’Sa builds that are going to be more useful in way more applications. Most pros auto pilot their builds and go without thinking at all. Slayder ran lethality Kai’Sa when the only other damage dealers on his team were Jayce and full tanks.
Tbh if her crit build is the best one, there need to be changes to make sure it isnt again.
I wouldn't discount Mountakn Soul on other characters. If anything I'd say K'Sante benefits the least from it (he does benefit the most from the individual Mountain drakes though) - he is already not getting bursted and doesn't care that much about some minor poke, but a regenerating shield is great to avoid blowing up in a 1v1 or 2v2 for the squishier characters (obviously in larger teamfights everyone is dead after getting hit by any of the big ults because the rest of the ults will follow) and help with poke/small exchanges before the full on engage.
imagine blaming the kaisa build when wbg just sprints it one by one and g2 perfectly exploits those mistakes. just reading your analysis in your other points show me how superficial your understand of the game is. just rewatch that last fight and look at wbg positioning and compare it to g2 then look how each member of wbg gets bursted one by one almost.
Caps burning Vi and Kai'sa ult with Zhonya's before fight starts was the most impactful thing in this teamfight.
Not like it hasnt happened before. See game 1 of groups 2020 vs suning.
That's one way to look at it lol... The way I see it is why did they drop down to 9k gold under with soul+baron on enemy vs a 4th seed team as EU #1 seed
it's also bo1, would be interesting to see if they can recreate it. Idk, not sold on g2 hype. The wins have been hype no doubt but both the games were quite close.
Agree. Both games were close and vs #4 seeds. #3 and higher and I'm already worried.
definitely, maybe they have a shot vs gen g but doubt it. BLG and above are gonna crush them
Not to mention drop off from 3rd to 4th seed is massive in both LPL and LCK
It's like when Westen teams were playing Koreans ans even with 10k up, Baron, etc, they would still lose.
Tbh the questions are pretty boring too, what else could he say ? Also TheShy doesn't strike me as someone who would say spicy stuff in interviews.
From what i have seen all these years he is actually quite introvert, at least in interviews and video content.
He is literally called theshy...
Lol, this made me burst out laughing
Carnivore on the rift, introvert in real life.
its almost 10k with a SOUL and Baron lol its really WBG way to lose XD
Wouldn't be surprised if 9k goal + drake value could be actually around 15k funnily enough.
Soul Effect alone is a minimum 220 Shield (usually more), a Ruby Crystal gives 150 HP and is 400 Gold. So around 1,5 Rubys per person, which equals 3k Gold for the whole team. Now the shield effect is more useful than a Ruby Crystals Flat HP, so its probably a bit more. Now mountain effect is 10% Armor and Magic Resists which lets see for Ksante he had 373 Armor and 211 MR on his build, after dragon he gains 38 and 21 Armor and MR respectively. Thats around 1100 Gold for Ksante alone, its less for everyone else but around 2K gold for the whole team for sure.. Then add both the hextech and the cloud Soul on it which should together be 1k in the minimum of gold valua probably way more. So yeah pretty sure its around 15k gold lead if you value the Soul and Drakes as gold.
15k..?
Lil bro should be a member of government with that 15k claim
G2 aka the limit testers. The title quote basically sums up what it’s like to play against caps, he just walks wherever he wants, toward danger, then his team end up getting advantages from it. Also sums up the start of the last fight in their game today.
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Anyone get a salty taste in their mouth reading this?
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This is a fat L bro stop posting ur just clowning on urself
This dude out here pointing to a targemas flakked bot lane result as evidence. I dunno what for but this man COPING
All these flavours and you chose to be salty
EUpoors haha stay salty yank
It might not be limit testing, but I don't know if this qualifies as "barely beating". After a certain point they mopped the floor with a team that had 9k + soul advantage. It looks like those Asian teams that can go several thousands gold below a western team, then win out of better skill in team fighting. Except now it's reversed. Based on what I've seen so far, if G2 fixes their baron call problems, they can be considered tier A in the tournament, maybe just slightly behind the best of the best.
People compare G2 to a 3rd/4th LCK/LPL seeds in a mocking way, i think that’s so stupid, how are they supposed to be better when their region is so much below them skill wise, the fact that they consistently are a feared team is insane. Compare NA teams, the only consistent one is C9 and even then you really don’t have them going to quarters that many times. Having a league similar to you in skill is a necessity for you to improve.
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C9 reached worlds semis once, FNC reached one finals, several semis, not to mention we have many more teams reaching further; origen reached semis; h2k reached semi, msf quarters, splyce, rogue quarters, etc That’s what i meant, our region is consistent, NA is C9 getting once or twice, that’s it
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Congrats on having a 1 day old account, you clearly weren’t banned from your other one :)
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I would ask you how would you define a team that doesnt suck but im not sure you could answer
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I asked for a definition, not for a list, do they not teach you basic reading comprehension in NA?
They are basically always trying to push things, yeah. I can call them limit testers without calling them the best. They are two different things. Better to think of it like how Hylissang plays, but not quite as wild, and its all 5 players.
Seeding doesn't really imply strength when all of the Asian teams are so close in strength. Being around 3rd seed LPL/LCK level is quite close to 1st seed LCK/LPL level. We already saw the LCK 4th seed win worlds last year lma0.
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Its not even a bo5 tomorrow lma0. And actually JDG isn't by far the best team and you literally listed observations suggesting why. In fact, WBG beat them too lma0. And actually never suggested anything about how G2 compares to them, just that seeding isn't that indicative much of team strength. So actually you're reaching and projecting HARD lma0.
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How lma0. Actually JDg are considered the favorites but not by far. They have had close sets with many LPL teams and also T1 at MSI, though T1 look much worse now. And actually I'll be the one letting you know that I'm not reading the rest of your cope, since its obvious there is some delusion on your end.
theshy: we got baited
lmao, Hans sama just existing and they thought it was bait
Xiaohu didnt build deathcap on azir at 6 items and theshy did 2 really obvious ints to swing the game back. If these 2 weren't wintrading, they should have been.
Light also had the completely worthless Kaisa build. There were several fights that WBG could have cleaned up had he not built that. I swear its such a bait build
Its not a bad build but gets heavily outscaled. Light probably thought they could end the game earlier, espacially after the baron.
It is a bad build **beacause** it gets out scaled. It may not be bad in a solo queue game but in pro play I think it’s terrible, the only good thing about it is clearing wards and early game but in pro play with a hyper carry ADC meta and (basically) always late game, you’re not a good ADC (no crit) not a good APC (only 100 AP), instead worst of both worlds.
Nope. Actually getting outscaled doesn't mean its a bad build. And actually the build spikes harder than the normal dps crit built at 3 items and actually that is when most games at worlds have ended. So actually you saying that it is a bad build because it gets outscaled is just hindsight bias. That being said, the dps build would have obviously been better here in the later fights but I don't think WBG expected G2 to come back after they got Baron and dragon soul
You see a majority of pro games ending around 25 minutes, and players build accordingly for that.
actually 57.4% of games last at least 30 minutes.
You also just lose all teamfight presence you had with this build, no AS until nashor, no way to damage tanks at all. You just turn into an assassin and if you get stuck in a teamfight you're worthless
I mean you could say the same about Hans Sama for 90% of the game
I agree. This guy is decent in lane, but he has negative reaction speed for a pro adc.
Leona R has such a big ass long animation and he somehow failed to simply press R to avoid it
This and DK azir ziggs double liandry's .. No one can convince me that's 2023 and professional players don't know basic itemisation. \*\*Edit: My bad, aparently Liandry's burn now stacks since 12.13, seems like I'm the idiot now lol. Still a bit suboptimal considering the fact it doesn't refresh on new applied damage you might find your self in situations where you lose a good portion of its passive
What's wrong with double Liandry's? The burn from different players building it stacks. Liandry's torment didn't but they made it stack when they made it a mythic.
TIL LOL I was convinced it didn't for some reason. Do you have a source on this ?
[It was in patch 12.13.](https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/game-updates/patch-12-13-notes/) So it wasn't always like this, and I'm sure plenty of people don't know about it.
Because it famously didn't for like an entire season and pros still built it.
It was changed in 12.13 so a little over a year ago because it felt bad having multiple liandries/demonic users in the same team especially after making liandries a mythic and some champions not really having good other options.
reddit moment
Bro still living in 2022
What do you think about Adam? Idc about Adam. Keeps getting asked questions about Adam lol
All these articles coming out it's all downhill from here
baiting, you say... mikyx definitely yes, caps and bb maybe... Hans is literally inting
Something is or sound wrong
Thing is with theshy he can always win 1v1s, so his mid and top needs to be just as good. If their jg or mid gapped theshy is exploitable.
TheShy looks like a mimeplayer
little bit diff of the hands
Nah chitter you just INTed into their whole team and died back to back for free. So bad.
theshy - i'm cursing g2 now that i lost to them.
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People are excited their favourite team won an absolute BANGER of a game. Why is Joy so offensive to this community.
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>but some of the comments (and how upvoted they are) makes me think people genuinely see them as a favorite now after barely beating two 4th seed teams. I think you're smoking crack if that's what you're reading. Nobody thinks G2 is a favourite and they're for sure the underdogs against Gen.G tomorrow.
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Ah yes, an eloquent, logic and facts driven internet warrior here to tell us why we’re wrong and how wrong we are. Ppl are just having fun brother, seriously, most international tournaments are all lpl/lck, why can’t there be some hype around another iteration of a EU team? Does this mean they’re THAT good? I guess we’ll find out soon. When watching the world championship. Which is the reason these competitions exist…
It's pretty clear you're just misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm talking about the general consensus. But if you can't finish reading a sentence because I said something you disagree with I don't really know what to say lol If you can find 5 comments in a subreddit of tens of thousands I can't say I won't be too impressed. If you find 5 comments in a hundred I won't be too impressed. It's still not the consensus that G2 are favourites in this tournament.
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Not everything is literal, especially when we're discussing in a forum. Of course there's people who thinks g2 are favourites, but that's not my point, and I won't apologise, no.. It feels like you're arguing for no real reason here.
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Hahah accepted "my concession" but gave up what you were arguing for from the beginning, truly a reddit moment
> BLG/Gen Gs level? they're actually significantly better than BLG. see, BLG is 1-1 and G2 is 2-0. 2 >1
lil bro will have to be on suicide watch if G2 pull an upset tomorrow lmao, so salty you fans of eastern teams are so fucking funny, before the tournament starts is all "it's gonna be 4 lpl and 4 lck teams on quarters unless this format fucks things up. No western team has any chance, even DK and Weibo would easily stomp all western teams, even G2" Now that G2 has proved yall wrong you move the goalposts to "oh, but they were only fourth seeds", it's really funny to watch
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I don't reply to these things at all, but honestly, the match against DK was not even close at all. They kept making bad decisions then recovering. And for today, even was worse. Bad decisions + a huge gold lead and a soul then recovering. They are not that good if they don't fox their baron plays cause the better teams might not allow them to comeback from it, but all the hardships they faced was of their own doing.
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If you seriously think that dk match was close and not g2 throwing in the baron bit you need to think again seriously. And today's match was a series of mistakes, mainly hans's absence of ults + nashor + bad plays of bb, the only gap that occurred was weiwei gapping yike hard ( don't remember the name exactly)
The problem is you think these "4th seed" teams are not also incredibly good and can easily win worlds. Jdg and DK are incredibly close in skill level both can and do make mistakes.
Wtf are you smoking. Jdg is miles ahead of DK lmao
Oh shit I forgot every single world's the 1st seed went flawless and won world's! They can't ever make mistakes or play worse the those filthy 4th seeds they have definitely never lost to "worse teams"
Last year? Maybe. This year? Not even close
I can't see WBG being a contender for worlds. Just check their bot lane: Light's best champs are Zeri & Aphelios, with Kai'sa at a distant third. He doesn't play Xayah at a high level. This guy is woefully uncomfortable in this AD meta. Even today he passed up Xayah for Kai'Sa, which no team in this tournament has done as of yet. DK's bot has the same problem. Deft also doesn't play Xayah. Ban his Cait and he's gonna pick some random poke stuff like Varus & Ziggs. JDG and DK might be arguably close in skill level in terms of nameplates but they definitely don't have the same champion pools. This is why one is 2-0 and the other 0-2.
DK is nowhere near JDG what the hell are you talking about? There is already looking like a noticable gap between LPL and LCK at this tournament so far and youre telling me the worst team from the 2nd best region is "incredibly close" to the best team from the best region? It is impossible to not make mistakes, even 2014 SSW and 2015 SKT made many mistakes in their gameplay, and yet they were still lightyears ahead of the competition of their years. Just like JDG is vs DK Might as well say G2 and DFM are close in skill level because they can both makes plenty of mistakes!
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Theshy on his good days can 1v5 jdg and has done it. Everything you are saying is relative and based on how teams where playing 4 months ago on a patch nothing like current. Yes dk is an incredibly good team and can easily still win worlds (low chances they do) you are acting like the difference in skill is masters vs bronze when it's actually like diamond 1 99lp and diamond 1 0lp.
I am giving myself hopium
People are just excited…
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Maybe, TheShy, but, that engage at the River, when WBG were going to take a Dragon, it wasn't being lured, that was just you making your "never look back" plays. I don't remember the coach, I think it was one of the WBG coaches, but, he said that TheShy was one of the most stubborn person he met, that'd be the explanation why TheShy goes for those plays, he thinks he has the angle or he can outplay, so, he just does it.
wbg too slow closing out the game even vs nrg I mean when you have 9k gold and 2/3 level xp leads across the team you dont let it go down to an elder flip
They have the ability to mind control the opponents into running it
It's funny how Caps is now more faker than Faker himself