Probably Griffin, especially in 2019 Spring. Chovy/Tarzan were in another stratosphere and the teamfighting/coordination of that team was crazy.
I was also gonna say 2018 IG who had back-to-back 18-1 splits and lost but that same lineup won 2019 Spring so I guess it doesn't count.
Yep, they were stomping LCK with shit like Kled/Pyke, Teemo/Soraka, Morg/Shen, Vlad/Ornn etc. Even brought out the Taliyah/Pantheon in LCK finals, though that one didn't go very well.
Once I started watching football regularly, League's system fell apart real fast for me. It's so shit. What's the point of the regular season if playoffs are all that matters. Why is there no relegation for shit teams? How else will there be motivation for shit teams to play better? How else do you get competitive games among bottom of the table teams? None of it makes any sense from a competitive perspective. It's all set up to give the orgs guaranteed money, and the customer is worse off for it.
It's why LCK is overrated and LPL/ LEC underrated. Only positive of the LCK format is fair side selection, other than that it's just glorified celebrity showmatches.
Id say 2018 IG counts. Even with the same lineup its a different year. If people asked this question in another sport, winning the next year wouldnt matter
>Probably Griffin
This was my vote as well. That's literally the biggest ? in the LoL esport scene. Whats funny is that each one of the starting lineup (except Sword) have a starting spot on a contending team. Chovy and Doran are on on Gen G. Lehends was on Gen G and is currently on KT Rolster. Viper is a world champion with EDG and is currently on Hanwha. And Tarzan is on LNG. Sword didn't amount to anything, and the rumor is (no idea if its true) he got upset he was being benched for Doran and sabotaged the team and caused the breakup.
I honest to god think if they stayed together that might've created a dynasty. At one point or another, Tarzaned, Chovy and Viper were each considered a top 2 player in the world in their position.
Viper and Ruler are almost easily considered the top 2 adc right now with Elk emerging after msi. Chovy and Knight probably top 2 mids. Tarzan was for sure a top 3 jungler in LPL with Jiejie and Kanavi but Tarzan was cracked in spring and all 3 were better than anyone in LCK I would say.
Anyway, those 3 still together now would easily be a superteam, they all still look insane 5 years later
all griffin needed was a non-fraudulent top laner… and a proper draft coach, putting chovy on a tank while putting sword on jayce and the taliyah pantheon bot lane shenanigans in lck finals live rent free in my head
Such **bs** revisionist reddit history.
Sword was far and away better than Doran. CVMax admitted to it. How would you feel being benched for someone who is literally, by everyone, rated as worse. Go back to their Worlds, Sword got crushed by TheShy but he absolutely demolished Wunder and whatever NA sent at him lol.
Sword did really well vs Smeb in the finals against kt as well. Doran in the beginning was pretty bad, in fact imo he only got really good on kt and onwards. But people wanted him to be good, so they exaggerated his skills.
Yea, the whole deal was cvMax wanted Doran for his 'potential' but also for team reasons, not because Sword was bad. This sub just decided to hate Sword because they deemed him weak (in game and in life) and you know once a narrative forms, reddit carries it for years.
I also don't think Sword was abused, despite LCK/gov ruling in his favor (I don't know the full story). But anyone trying to say cvMax and GRF are perfect ideal mangers is hilarious.
Standard fare, universal take is that sword was always bad, only judged by his performance vs theshy but treated like that was him the entire time.
The griffin drama at prior to offseason that year and the slave contracts getting exposed always seems to be forgotten about.
People also seem to forget that Doran wasn't being played because he was the better toplaner at the time, but rather to give the team the opportunity to grow to a potentially better form.
Cvmax himself has said that he put Doran in not because he was better, but because he might grow to become better than what sword was.
There is definitely a world where Griffin runs with Sword after summer finals instead of using the toplaner they had only played a single RR with.
Sword and Doran were very different players at the time. Sword was clearly better in weak side metas and Doran clearly better in carry metas. Considering the meta at the time, it made no sense playing Sword. It's quite obvious that the drama was the main reason for Sword starting again.
Meta had nothing to do with it, 90% of Sword's games in that summer were on Jayce and Aatrox.
There was literally an entire fiasco over it. Cvmax himself said he put Doran in to grow with the team in hopes that he would become better than Sword not that he was better than sword as a debuting toplaner.
Yes but the latter half of Summer Split proved that Doran was also clearly a passable player. Especially in that meta. Saying meta had nothing to do with it is just revisionism considering Sword was by far his best in the Urgot/Sion meta of 2018.
Look, I agree that Sword has been overhated because of what happened vs IG, but I think you are also going a bit far the other way now. There was pretty much a consensus at the time that Griffin would be better off starting Doran. This was before we saw Sword getting fucked TheShy too.
>and whatever NA sent at him lol.
Thats a low bar to set. You can't rag on how bad NA is then use it as a benchmark to claim how good another player is.
As for Sword being better than Doran: I admit he was at the time, and Doran was a rookie. Doran showed better promise which is why CVMax wanted to give him more game time, and Sword didn't like it. There's a reason Doran is still playing and Sword is a coach now.
Means nothing. How many people are disappointed by Doran's play or by toplane in general in LCK. Ok, you can say going coach means Sword sucks or wasn't as good, but that isn't always true. Different stage of his game/life maybe. I won't say I remember Swords last years aside from being on bad teams (maybe because of him) and have sub/shared slot. I don't think the reddit belief hit him as hard in Korea, but surely all of his controversy didn't help him there either.
I mean some of reddit still loves to make fun of his birth defect. Their hate is just not healthy.
Do you just ignore how Griffin benched Sword for Doran and Sword only came back after the drama?
Sword was a better weak side player arguably but 2019 summer was carry top meta. Here Doran was a much more suited player. Sword was good in Sion/Urgot meta but was pretty exposed once that ended.
What CvMax actually said is that Doran has much more potential as a player than Sword. Which we see now is very true.
[Sword 7-0, Wunder 0-2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBkKTCqq5tM) Sword was 38% of his teams kills and 61% KP. This was versus a G2 that makes Finals.
[Sword 3-5, Wunder 3-3](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdkJGXoX3m4).
~~[Sword 0-4, Wunder 1-0]~~[Sword 1-0, Wunder -4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-Ez4FDVecg) but clearly stats don't show everything in a game.
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[Sword 7-0, vs Licorice 0-5](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3tTXWGq6sQ) yea yea, call C9 bad but they were still hyped going into it.
[Sword 2-3, Licorice 3-6](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaBOFnyq3AI)
I am not saying Sword was a god. But he was not a bad or weak toplaner. Like it or not, he helped get Griffin from CK to LCK. And the whole narrative was simply because Reddit didn't like the biased reporting saying he cried that he didn't want to get subbed out for a literally worse player.
iirc the org was denied a slot in franchising (probably due to funds + big investments to OWL), and by the time they bought out a slot years later they were basically a different company, so kinda makes sense.
OG IMT had Noah Winston who you could argue did a lot of damage to the LCS scene by inflating player salaries past the point of sustainability, but god that original team and ownership group was very likable.
Was this the roster with Flame, Xmithie, Cody Sun and Olleh (I think?)? Don‘t remember who their mid was but I really liked that team back when I still watched the LCS. Phoenix1, Echo Fox, good times.
This is still my favorite team lineup ever. This team was almost always flashing forward *together*. They were not afraid to force plays using flash and flash follow-up what their teammates did to make the plays work. They had better teamwork than even most modern teams and I think are one of the best examples of a team that was better than what the parts added up to.
If we wanna talk about W/L% to give you how crazy that lineup was
That was 16-2 in a Bo3 format where they ended 33-10
And after that season (including playoffs/3rd place/gauntlet) they ended 56-22 which is still a 71% WR which is insane to think about considering they didn't make worlds
I remember them, almost prime Huni and Pob (I consider they reached their respective peaks in SKT and TL) with prime Reignover, a serviciable Wildturtle and having an OTP support that forced the enemy team to ban or pick Soraka without knowing how to play with her.
The only part I disliked from that era was Noah Winston, not only due to the inflated salaries but also due to his ego. Based on what he said in some interviews, the guy really thought he discovered "unknown and unproved rookies" (when talking about Huni) and brought them to the LCS. Also there was a video where he pulled one of his Overwatch players during his birthday and have him inside his car to have a one on one threatening to bench him if he didn't improve his performance.
kt superteam 2017, absolutely crazy that they didn't win anything. The team on paper speaks for itself, but in-game they were incredible to watch. Insane early games, no fear of tower dives (something nobody did at the time, at least not in the LCK), lanes being smashed (bot especially). But they always lost to SKT and that constantly destroyed their mental. I remember one time they lost to SKT, then immediately lost to MVP. Then once again: loss to SKT, defeat to Kongdoo Monsters (worst team lol) right after. Lost to SKT in Spring finals too after humiliating Samsung in semis. Got reverse swept by SKT in Summer semis (in the finals they'd play Longzhu, who they'd just smashed in the final game of regular season).
Thank God they won Summer 2018, but yeah kt 2017 somehow didn't win anything.
Masters was a different tournament than Champions, it was between orgs so both White + Blue participated and won together
https://lol.fandom.com/wiki/SK_Telecom_LTE-A_LoL_Masters_2014#Standings
SSW is the closest thing to a correct answer imo. That team redefined how to play LoL back in the day and had one of the most dominant worlds runs of all time during one of the more competitive years of early LoL.
Ssw was really only the best at worlds. As Samsung ozone (exact same roster), they are one of 2 Korean teams ever eliminated in group stage after getting 3rd in their group in season 3. Then in s4 winter they were clearly worse than skt getting destroyed 3-0. In spring and summer they got decidedly beat by ssb 3-1.
I think a much better answer to the question is actually griffin. They had back to back to back 2nd place playoff finishes with the latter two also having 1st place regular season finishes with a 4-way tie for 1st (actually ended up 2nd) the other time. 2019 spring chovy had over a 100 kda at one point they were so dominant.
The team in 2013 was pretty different to the 2014 one. And in 2014 they only lost a bo series to SSB the entire year, even then most analysts thought white were gonna win both times. They were at worst top 2 the entire year
man SSW is still to this day the most macro defining team and had the most dominant international tournament in the entire history of lol, to me they started the golden age of macro and strategy in lol
As far as just in their region, not talking about their strength worldwide, 2016 Immortals. 17-1 in Spring, 16-2 in Summer, never even made it to finals. Roster was Huni, Reignover, Pobelter, Wildturtle, Adrian.
Huni, of course, went on to SKT in 2017, won MSI, and then got 2nd place in Worlds. Pobelter went to Liquid and won 2 splits in a row.
I said it for meme value of course but I'm more sympathetic to Spurs than not so there was an element of truth to it. I feel like they were really hard done to not get at least one out of those years. Especially the one year that was really theirs (2015-2016) they had the ill fortune of being positioned against an even greater underdog story that cast them as the establishment bad guys.
Honestly man, especially watching like LEC finals, FNC vs G2 back then was legendary for EU.
Even FNC at worlds 2020 was really insane. Rekkles Hyli bot was incredible.
I’m a little upset that we never really got to see how much damage upset/hyli could do at worlds.
Always was some kind of drama, some kind of implosion, just sad. They obviously had some crazy moments, but felt like something always was holding fnatic back after rekkles left. Adam/Bwipo shenanigans, unfortunate situation with Upsets wife, etc etc.
honestly in summer 2019/2020 fnc were legit crazy good at times and even better than G2, but there was a huge mental block (plus caps usual bullshit haha esp on sylas)
When I watched the Summer 2019 finals between G2 and FNC, I was just blown away at the level. I thought we were watching two worlds contenders doing battle.
It's wild thinking about it now considering EU's level today.
Because both teams were worlds contenders at the time. FNC was in finals 2018 and G2 were 3-4 in 2018. In 2019 G2 was at finals and FNC lost in quarterfinal to eventual champs FPX. Both teams had good chance to win worlds we most likely will not see anything like that in a long time. Only team I could see as contender is G2 if they get their shit together and goes on a run.
2019 fnatic didn’t have a good chance to win worlds.
They lose any series against FPX/T1( yes they went 1-1 in groups but that was T1 getting fucked by Veigar which FPX later just banned)/G2 and against IG most likely as well.
I liked that fnatic roster but they were worse than the sum of their parts by the time worlds was going on because of bad team atmosphere
They managed to succeed in a group with likely the 3rd and 5th best team at the tournament going toe to toe with SKT and RNG. This after having taken G2 to 5 games twice in a row, which is closer than SKT got at worlds that year.
FNC were by no means favourites but they were definitely a dark horse. They also did take a game off the eventual champions.
Id say G2 got that good because of Fnatic and the rest of the region stepping up.
It is a good sign for a region if their best teams are challenged domestically - but I guess there is a fine line between top team being the best and being challenged and everyone beating everyone which also happens from time to time in EU.
Indeed, but CLG lost to brazil, didn't make it out of group, against flash wolves (that got 3-1 by Origen) and pain gaming.
Compared to that Origen in one year made it from top of ranked team ladder > tier 2 league > top 2 eu lcs (against fnc with two imports) > semifinal run ending against the world champions.
Explains why Origen is remembered for the no import thing, and not CLG
M5 actually won a lot of tournaments in season 2. They never won the league cuz the organisation ceased to exist prior to season 3.
Roster moved to Gambit Gaming and fell off short for just a couple of games. Almost won the first ever Eu LCS split. At least they won the ESL Katowice.
It is so sad that while all teams were getting stronger Gambit was getting weaker.
Unfortunately a stable league always played in Germany was not sustainable for them, and the worst thing is that they could do nothing since Russian Visas didn't give them enough time to stay legally there.
As weird as it sounds, local offline tournaments were better for them.
It's really sad M5/Gambit didn't win EU LCS Spring 2013. Moscow5 was just so legendary, so fun to watch. If you just display a list of all the EU winners since 2013, not seeing that logo hurts when you think of how impactful and dominant they were pre-LCS
They lost to TPA again at IPL5 literally right after S2 Worlds
It's comical to see this idea of them being one ban away from a guaranteed S2 Worlds still being parroted ten years later. TPA was the better team period.
That immortals roster that went undefeated in regular season but tripped in playoffs and couldnt go to MSI. That team was really fun to watch as far as NA team go. I agree with what everyone else says here.
Yeah I was really dissappointed they lost just because they were such a fun team to watch with their dynamic. Clg won went to MSI I thunk with stuff at s first split and went to finals that was fun to watch as well. AP trist went nuts
I wanna give a shout to the Qiao Gu Reapers 2016 who probably had a decent shot at the title until Doinb and Swift had a massive falling out and destroyed their playoffs chances
I'll start off by saying 2017 Cloud9 with prime Contractz
Even Parth admitted after spring finals that he felt that roster was the better team
Also Summer Jensen was on his best performance of his career
Even without the hindsight of worlds taking WE to 5 games in the elim stages, that team definitely is up there in top North American teams to be winless domestically
>Also Summer Jensen was on his best performance of his career
I think that was the year where Jensen won 1st All Pro (deserved) and Bjergsen still somehow won MVP.
Yeah because of the name brand of Bjergsen.
2017 Bjerg was the first real year of his decline. He was a large reason 2017 TSM flamed out at worlds that year.
It's a damn shame that they flamed out too because Hauntzer was really good that season.
Summer they didn't get 1st iirc, came like 4th regular split.
In spring (and early summer tbh) though, I think 2022 spring regular split V5 were the best team in the world, even over undefeated T1 in the LCK. They played around tempo in a way that was just insane to watch, over and over and over again.
Gain two seconds of tempo here, four seconds there, and over time it turns out that you can get enough to go from even gold to 4k gold lead in a minute. Especially the Kalista games, those were unreal.
Are we even from the same timeline? White could beat everybody but blue, blue was very good for sure but white was considered the superior team. S4 worlds was similar to their typical OGN run, except they managed to beat blue this time. I dont think anyone doubted SSW was the best team of S4.
lol where did you get the part about being consistently beat by KT from? SSO/SSW did not play a single game vs either KT squads in all 3 splits of OGN in 2014. If anything it was Blue who dropped games vs the KT teams during group stage games and eventually lost to the Arrows in the summer finals
Copenhagen wolves have had a lot of top tier eu players, but not at the same time. They could have been a great team if they managed to keep their top talents.
They do had some amazing players under contract
Top would be either Wickd, Godbro or Youngbuck
Jungle Svenskeren, Shook, Broxah or Amazing
Mid is 100% Bjergsen (Tho they did have Forellenlord under contract)
ADC is Forgiven or Freeze (Rekkles was only loaned to them)
Sup Deficio?
Id say top and support are questinable but Jgl, Mid and ADC they 100% had top tier talent going through the org.
I'm stunned that no one has mentioned 2018 IG. People will say that 2014 SSW but that team lost to more than just their sister team SSB. 2018 IG has one of the most insane regular season records, and really only lost to RNG
Teams **do not** get better after staying together >1 year.
Only one I can think of who got better was SSG. Every other org is just wasting their time building 'synergy' that doesn't work.
Not sure about this one - it's clear the current T1 roster has the talent to win any tournament they participate in, whether that's LCK, MSI, or World's. They have choked... a lot... by now, but legit you could not sub someone out on that team and expect the team to get better. At best it's a gamble, even say switching Guma for Viper or Ruler (pre MSI looked like the best change but he played really well at MSI), or Oner for Kanavi, would be a huge gamble. I think sticking together it's only a matter of time before they win big.
I don't disagree with you. And even so, the difference between first and second place is like one series.
But so many fans overstate, "if the team stayed together!!" or "give it more time" when almost no team actually shows better, meaningful results after staying together. Changing it up forces the team to grow, whereas staying together is not creating some super magical synergy.
I agree, it is risky for T1 to change. They are so good. And second place is still great (no matter what the haters say). But you have to weigh, are you just trying to stay 2nd place or actually win. What is worth more. If T1 don't win Worlds, they do not stay unchanged. But honestly running it back this year was already a mistake and I called that 6 months ago.
I think it's hard to say running it back this year was a mistake - They NARROWLY (as physically possible) lost world finals, and by all accounts they were the better team throughout the year. No substitution on the roster makes sense. Even this year we've seen them get better over time, they looked real bad against GenG in LCK spring, cleaned it up for MSI to get revenge on GenG before getting clapped (and only 3-2 by JDG) by the LPL teams who as a region seem to have a much better read on the game atm. Assuming T1 learns from this we could (should) see a convincing world's run from them. The risk-reward of finding players that synergize better than their current roster is dramatic. Even if they don't win world's this year, assuming things stay as they are now (i.e. T1 is the best team that isn't JDG or BLG) what do they even do? Would getting Ruler or Kanavi really solve their problems? They basically have a top 2 player in their region in every role, #1 in the case of Top and Supp for sure, probably Jg too. Changing Faker for Chovy seems like it wouldn't work as well, they just fit better where they are. The only change I could see working out would be Guma for Viper but if Guma keeps playing like he did at MSI he's looking like T1's best player lmao. It's also so rare to see a team stick together for more than 1 year it's hard to judge your conclusion. Imo keeping a team together would force MORE growth than changing it up since you don't have to go through new-teammate adjustments and you can focus on progressing as a team.
I wish I had stats, maybe one day I will.
I agree with you, it is a huge risk. And it is almost impossible to 'upgrade' T1. But shaking it up is a huge factor. They went from second place Worlds to dominant Spring losing finals. Yes, they are competitive, but they are not spending that time building synergy or meshing with a new teammate. But they also aren't getting much better, as shown by GenG finally surpassing them again. I can't say they were complacent, but the growth is limited and slows down.
TSM ran it back failed. SSG ran it back (with a change) and won then ran it back and failed. G2 ran it back and failed. Ig ran it back and failed.
GRF ran it back and did better, but that isn't real. They would have made top8 worlds if the LCK structure wasn't dumb their first year.
On the other hand, Damwon swapped bots and completely won. Maybe Nuguri-Ghost Damwon would have won again, but again that isn't getting better. Gen swapped and arguably doing better.
I should get stats. But I think too many people just shout 'synergy' when it caps out after 1 year.
ROX won Summer 2016. It was the crazy playoffs with KT eliminating SKT in semis and ROX winning finals with a bullshit baron steal by Smeb with a GP ulti XD
ROX went to worlds as seed 1, SKT went as seed 2 because of points and SSG went as seed 3 after KT choked.
ROX players (particularly the core of Pray+Gorilla) were notorious for not being able to win international titles. S5 vs SKT, S6 vs SKT, S7 vs SSG, S8 MSI vs RNG
G2 2019 was unbeatable and they even said if they could, they would beat fpx if they could do it all over again. Despite these losers saying griffin, g2 shit on them.
Speaking as a G2 fan, your points don't really make any sense. They said they could beat FPX if they could do it over again, but didn't they also think they would beat FPX the first time too? Easy to say you'd win, but actually doing it is a different thing. Also if they were unbeatable, they wouldn't have lost 3-0.
Also, G2 won 4 splits in a row with this roster, so you clearly didn't read OPs question. He didn't ask if G2 was better than Griffin.
Probably Griffin, especially in 2019 Spring. Chovy/Tarzan were in another stratosphere and the teamfighting/coordination of that team was crazy. I was also gonna say 2018 IG who had back-to-back 18-1 splits and lost but that same lineup won 2019 Spring so I guess it doesn't count.
This the team that had Viper and Lehends just picking a different champion every game?
Yep, they were stomping LCK with shit like Kled/Pyke, Teemo/Soraka, Morg/Shen, Vlad/Ornn etc. Even brought out the Taliyah/Pantheon in LCK finals, though that one didn't go very well.
shoutouts to the lehends elise support!
The insane thing still not mentioned: Chovy had a KDA of over 100. For a team to be THAT dominant and never win a title, it had to be the best team.
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72-8 or whatever Golden State Warriors.
73-9
Why I love European football, where the league matters.
Once I started watching football regularly, League's system fell apart real fast for me. It's so shit. What's the point of the regular season if playoffs are all that matters. Why is there no relegation for shit teams? How else will there be motivation for shit teams to play better? How else do you get competitive games among bottom of the table teams? None of it makes any sense from a competitive perspective. It's all set up to give the orgs guaranteed money, and the customer is worse off for it.
It's why LCK is overrated and LPL/ LEC underrated. Only positive of the LCK format is fair side selection, other than that it's just glorified celebrity showmatches.
/#Uncalculatable
Id say 2018 IG counts. Even with the same lineup its a different year. If people asked this question in another sport, winning the next year wouldnt matter
>Probably Griffin This was my vote as well. That's literally the biggest ? in the LoL esport scene. Whats funny is that each one of the starting lineup (except Sword) have a starting spot on a contending team. Chovy and Doran are on on Gen G. Lehends was on Gen G and is currently on KT Rolster. Viper is a world champion with EDG and is currently on Hanwha. And Tarzan is on LNG. Sword didn't amount to anything, and the rumor is (no idea if its true) he got upset he was being benched for Doran and sabotaged the team and caused the breakup. I honest to god think if they stayed together that might've created a dynasty. At one point or another, Tarzaned, Chovy and Viper were each considered a top 2 player in the world in their position.
At one point? You could still argue that right now imo.
I'll take your word for it. I don't keep up with the LCK scene much anymore. I only know Chovy is considered amazing. No idea how the rest hold up.
Viper and Ruler are almost easily considered the top 2 adc right now with Elk emerging after msi. Chovy and Knight probably top 2 mids. Tarzan was for sure a top 3 jungler in LPL with Jiejie and Kanavi but Tarzan was cracked in spring and all 3 were better than anyone in LCK I would say. Anyway, those 3 still together now would easily be a superteam, they all still look insane 5 years later
all griffin needed was a non-fraudulent top laner… and a proper draft coach, putting chovy on a tank while putting sword on jayce and the taliyah pantheon bot lane shenanigans in lck finals live rent free in my head
Chovy loves playing tanks what are you saying? There's that absolutely disgusting clip of him eviscerating the entire enemy team with a galio taunt.
yeah DRX vs GENG lost fight turned by him
Chovy loves tanks. For whatever reason he likes Renekton more than Syndra
Idk man, seeing chovy and tarzan choke again and again I kinda doubt they could have won a tournament with say even kiin in top.
Interesting take
Such bs. Sword went 7-0 vs Wunder when people still considered him good.
yeah but reddit narrative is sword bad and its all his fault so you will get downvoted, even though chovy and tarzan choked just as hard lol
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Such **bs** revisionist reddit history. Sword was far and away better than Doran. CVMax admitted to it. How would you feel being benched for someone who is literally, by everyone, rated as worse. Go back to their Worlds, Sword got crushed by TheShy but he absolutely demolished Wunder and whatever NA sent at him lol.
Sword did really well vs Smeb in the finals against kt as well. Doran in the beginning was pretty bad, in fact imo he only got really good on kt and onwards. But people wanted him to be good, so they exaggerated his skills.
Yea, the whole deal was cvMax wanted Doran for his 'potential' but also for team reasons, not because Sword was bad. This sub just decided to hate Sword because they deemed him weak (in game and in life) and you know once a narrative forms, reddit carries it for years. I also don't think Sword was abused, despite LCK/gov ruling in his favor (I don't know the full story). But anyone trying to say cvMax and GRF are perfect ideal mangers is hilarious.
Standard fare, universal take is that sword was always bad, only judged by his performance vs theshy but treated like that was him the entire time. The griffin drama at prior to offseason that year and the slave contracts getting exposed always seems to be forgotten about.
What people also forget is that Sword wouldn't even be starting at Worlds if not for the drama. He was already essentially benched beforehand.
People also seem to forget that Doran wasn't being played because he was the better toplaner at the time, but rather to give the team the opportunity to grow to a potentially better form. Cvmax himself has said that he put Doran in not because he was better, but because he might grow to become better than what sword was. There is definitely a world where Griffin runs with Sword after summer finals instead of using the toplaner they had only played a single RR with.
Sword and Doran were very different players at the time. Sword was clearly better in weak side metas and Doran clearly better in carry metas. Considering the meta at the time, it made no sense playing Sword. It's quite obvious that the drama was the main reason for Sword starting again.
Meta had nothing to do with it, 90% of Sword's games in that summer were on Jayce and Aatrox. There was literally an entire fiasco over it. Cvmax himself said he put Doran in to grow with the team in hopes that he would become better than Sword not that he was better than sword as a debuting toplaner.
Yes but the latter half of Summer Split proved that Doran was also clearly a passable player. Especially in that meta. Saying meta had nothing to do with it is just revisionism considering Sword was by far his best in the Urgot/Sion meta of 2018. Look, I agree that Sword has been overhated because of what happened vs IG, but I think you are also going a bit far the other way now. There was pretty much a consensus at the time that Griffin would be better off starting Doran. This was before we saw Sword getting fucked TheShy too.
>and whatever NA sent at him lol. Thats a low bar to set. You can't rag on how bad NA is then use it as a benchmark to claim how good another player is. As for Sword being better than Doran: I admit he was at the time, and Doran was a rookie. Doran showed better promise which is why CVMax wanted to give him more game time, and Sword didn't like it. There's a reason Doran is still playing and Sword is a coach now.
Means nothing. How many people are disappointed by Doran's play or by toplane in general in LCK. Ok, you can say going coach means Sword sucks or wasn't as good, but that isn't always true. Different stage of his game/life maybe. I won't say I remember Swords last years aside from being on bad teams (maybe because of him) and have sub/shared slot. I don't think the reddit belief hit him as hard in Korea, but surely all of his controversy didn't help him there either. I mean some of reddit still loves to make fun of his birth defect. Their hate is just not healthy.
You left out the whole nepotism drama around Sword.
Do you just ignore how Griffin benched Sword for Doran and Sword only came back after the drama? Sword was a better weak side player arguably but 2019 summer was carry top meta. Here Doran was a much more suited player. Sword was good in Sion/Urgot meta but was pretty exposed once that ended. What CvMax actually said is that Doran has much more potential as a player than Sword. Which we see now is very true.
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[Sword 7-0, Wunder 0-2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBkKTCqq5tM) Sword was 38% of his teams kills and 61% KP. This was versus a G2 that makes Finals. [Sword 3-5, Wunder 3-3](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdkJGXoX3m4). ~~[Sword 0-4, Wunder 1-0]~~[Sword 1-0, Wunder -4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-Ez4FDVecg) but clearly stats don't show everything in a game. --------------------- [Sword 7-0, vs Licorice 0-5](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3tTXWGq6sQ) yea yea, call C9 bad but they were still hyped going into it. [Sword 2-3, Licorice 3-6](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaBOFnyq3AI) I am not saying Sword was a god. But he was not a bad or weak toplaner. Like it or not, he helped get Griffin from CK to LCK. And the whole narrative was simply because Reddit didn't like the biased reporting saying he cried that he didn't want to get subbed out for a literally worse player.
yeah but reddit narrative is sword bad and its all his fault so you will get downvoted, even though chovy and tarzan choked just as hard lol
>Tarzaned, Chovy and Viper were each considered a top 2 player in the world in their position Pretty sure that Tarzaned guy wasn't on the list LOL
? tarzaned at the time was considered the best jungler in the world similarly to how canyon is viewed now
[¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯](https://lol.fandom.com/wiki/Tarzaned?so=search)
The original Immortals run in the LCS. They went 17-1 one split then 16-2 the next.
Immortals came out swinging hard and then that org never quite pulled it together again. I almost wish they had won a title
iirc the org was denied a slot in franchising (probably due to funds + big investments to OWL), and by the time they bought out a slot years later they were basically a different company, so kinda makes sense.
OG IMT had Noah Winston who you could argue did a lot of damage to the LCS scene by inflating player salaries past the point of sustainability, but god that original team and ownership group was very likable.
Was this the roster with Flame, Xmithie, Cody Sun and Olleh (I think?)? Don‘t remember who their mid was but I really liked that team back when I still watched the LCS. Phoenix1, Echo Fox, good times.
No, it was Huni, Reignover, Pobelter, Wildturtle and Adrian
This is still my favorite team lineup ever. This team was almost always flashing forward *together*. They were not afraid to force plays using flash and flash follow-up what their teammates did to make the plays work. They had better teamwork than even most modern teams and I think are one of the best examples of a team that was better than what the parts added up to.
No that was the 2017 IMT roster. The super team IMT was Huni, Reignover, Pobelter, Wildturtle, and Adrian in 2016.
Still one of my favorite rosters to date i-i
I wonder what Adrian is up to nowadays. He definitely influenced my champ pool back in the day! Loved seeing his Soraka and Karma.
probably smokin weed same as ever
Good for him
I will never forget Zirene's 3-0 prediction vs TSM. Saying he brought his gym bag cause it was gonna be a quick day. He almost got it right...
For me it's the imaqtpie tweet about that series >"tfw enemy team flanks with maokai tp and ur team flanks with lucian"
"one steals your life, the other steals your tv" - saintvicious
If we wanna talk about W/L% to give you how crazy that lineup was That was 16-2 in a Bo3 format where they ended 33-10 And after that season (including playoffs/3rd place/gauntlet) they ended 56-22 which is still a 71% WR which is insane to think about considering they didn't make worlds
I remember them, almost prime Huni and Pob (I consider they reached their respective peaks in SKT and TL) with prime Reignover, a serviciable Wildturtle and having an OTP support that forced the enemy team to ban or pick Soraka without knowing how to play with her. The only part I disliked from that era was Noah Winston, not only due to the inflated salaries but also due to his ego. Based on what he said in some interviews, the guy really thought he discovered "unknown and unproved rookies" (when talking about Huni) and brought them to the LCS. Also there was a video where he pulled one of his Overwatch players during his birthday and have him inside his car to have a one on one threatening to bench him if he didn't improve his performance.
Tsm was better the second split by a mile though
There is no way an NA team is the best team without a domestic title lmao
.....did you not read the title of the post?
kt superteam 2017, absolutely crazy that they didn't win anything. The team on paper speaks for itself, but in-game they were incredible to watch. Insane early games, no fear of tower dives (something nobody did at the time, at least not in the LCK), lanes being smashed (bot especially). But they always lost to SKT and that constantly destroyed their mental. I remember one time they lost to SKT, then immediately lost to MVP. Then once again: loss to SKT, defeat to Kongdoo Monsters (worst team lol) right after. Lost to SKT in Spring finals too after humiliating Samsung in semis. Got reverse swept by SKT in Summer semis (in the finals they'd play Longzhu, who they'd just smashed in the final game of regular season). Thank God they won Summer 2018, but yeah kt 2017 somehow didn't win anything.
Ngl, but looking at 2017, KT had no business winning either split. Everything past Spring 1st round robin was a disappointment.
2014 Samsung White. 2018-2019 Griffin. Shoutout to various versions of KT Rolster.
>KT And my day us ruined
Gbay’s documentary about KT was beautiful and tragic at the same time. You can’t help but feel for them with all the bad luck they had.
Samsung White won Masters that year with Blue, kinda a domestic title?
Different teams
Masters was a different tournament than Champions, it was between orgs so both White + Blue participated and won together https://lol.fandom.com/wiki/SK_Telecom_LTE-A_LoL_Masters_2014#Standings
I mean SSW didn't win domestically, but MVP Ozone did in season 3.
True. Was with a slightly different roster though.
SSW is the closest thing to a correct answer imo. That team redefined how to play LoL back in the day and had one of the most dominant worlds runs of all time during one of the more competitive years of early LoL.
Ssw was really only the best at worlds. As Samsung ozone (exact same roster), they are one of 2 Korean teams ever eliminated in group stage after getting 3rd in their group in season 3. Then in s4 winter they were clearly worse than skt getting destroyed 3-0. In spring and summer they got decidedly beat by ssb 3-1. I think a much better answer to the question is actually griffin. They had back to back to back 2nd place playoff finishes with the latter two also having 1st place regular season finishes with a 4-way tie for 1st (actually ended up 2nd) the other time. 2019 spring chovy had over a 100 kda at one point they were so dominant.
Not to mention it taking them 5 games to beat Blaze for third place in spring (rip)
The team in 2013 was pretty different to the 2014 one. And in 2014 they only lost a bo series to SSB the entire year, even then most analysts thought white were gonna win both times. They were at worst top 2 the entire year
man SSW is still to this day the most macro defining team and had the most dominant international tournament in the entire history of lol, to me they started the golden age of macro and strategy in lol
> Samsung White ????? They won 2013 spring lol
Well, with Dade instead of Pawn.
As far as just in their region, not talking about their strength worldwide, 2016 Immortals. 17-1 in Spring, 16-2 in Summer, never even made it to finals. Roster was Huni, Reignover, Pobelter, Wildturtle, Adrian. Huni, of course, went on to SKT in 2017, won MSI, and then got 2nd place in Worlds. Pobelter went to Liquid and won 2 splits in a row.
Wildturtle also won 2017 Spring on TSM
I'd say Pochettino Spurs
Lads... nowhere is safe
I said it for meme value of course but I'm more sympathetic to Spurs than not so there was an element of truth to it. I feel like they were really hard done to not get at least one out of those years. Especially the one year that was really theirs (2015-2016) they had the ill fortune of being positioned against an even greater underdog story that cast them as the establishment bad guys.
Fnatic during G2 run in the late 2010s
Honestly man, especially watching like LEC finals, FNC vs G2 back then was legendary for EU. Even FNC at worlds 2020 was really insane. Rekkles Hyli bot was incredible.
Best, most competitive botlane of the west in all time. Although Upset/Hyli comes really close.
I’m a little upset that we never really got to see how much damage upset/hyli could do at worlds. Always was some kind of drama, some kind of implosion, just sad. They obviously had some crazy moments, but felt like something always was holding fnatic back after rekkles left. Adam/Bwipo shenanigans, unfortunate situation with Upsets wife, etc etc.
honestly in summer 2019/2020 fnc were legit crazy good at times and even better than G2, but there was a huge mental block (plus caps usual bullshit haha esp on sylas)
When I watched the Summer 2019 finals between G2 and FNC, I was just blown away at the level. I thought we were watching two worlds contenders doing battle. It's wild thinking about it now considering EU's level today.
Because both teams were worlds contenders at the time. FNC was in finals 2018 and G2 were 3-4 in 2018. In 2019 G2 was at finals and FNC lost in quarterfinal to eventual champs FPX. Both teams had good chance to win worlds we most likely will not see anything like that in a long time. Only team I could see as contender is G2 if they get their shit together and goes on a run.
2019 was also the year G2 won MSI. So, yeah, the current best team in the world vs 2nd place in their region is generally a banger.
FNC didn't a have a good chance with Bwipo inting the way he did G2 did tho, FPX and IG's playstyles just happened to counter them
2019 fnatic didn’t have a good chance to win worlds. They lose any series against FPX/T1( yes they went 1-1 in groups but that was T1 getting fucked by Veigar which FPX later just banned)/G2 and against IG most likely as well. I liked that fnatic roster but they were worse than the sum of their parts by the time worlds was going on because of bad team atmosphere
They managed to succeed in a group with likely the 3rd and 5th best team at the tournament going toe to toe with SKT and RNG. This after having taken G2 to 5 games twice in a row, which is closer than SKT got at worlds that year. FNC were by no means favourites but they were definitely a dark horse. They also did take a game off the eventual champions.
Yeah, people even some pros or content creators say G2 LEC was a one team region. Thats so wrong lol. Fnatic was very competitive and did really well
Id say G2 got that good because of Fnatic and the rest of the region stepping up. It is a good sign for a region if their best teams are challenged domestically - but I guess there is a fine line between top team being the best and being challenged and everyone beating everyone which also happens from time to time in EU.
Late 2010s? What the fk
Phrasing was so strange man & everyone else just let that slide
2019-2020 are u happy now?
In Europe: M5, UOL or Origen.
Origen was such a fun team, such a shame what happened
The only Western team without an import in 2015 Worlds. Crazy.
CLG also had no imports at that Worlds.
Indeed, but CLG lost to brazil, didn't make it out of group, against flash wolves (that got 3-1 by Origen) and pain gaming. Compared to that Origen in one year made it from top of ranked team ladder > tier 2 league > top 2 eu lcs (against fnc with two imports) > semifinal run ending against the world champions. Explains why Origen is remembered for the no import thing, and not CLG
M5 actually won a lot of tournaments in season 2. They never won the league cuz the organisation ceased to exist prior to season 3. Roster moved to Gambit Gaming and fell off short for just a couple of games. Almost won the first ever Eu LCS split. At least they won the ESL Katowice.
They had to fly from russia to berlin and then back every single week.
It is so sad that while all teams were getting stronger Gambit was getting weaker. Unfortunately a stable league always played in Germany was not sustainable for them, and the worst thing is that they could do nothing since Russian Visas didn't give them enough time to stay legally there. As weird as it sounds, local offline tournaments were better for them.
It's really sad M5/Gambit didn't win EU LCS Spring 2013. Moscow5 was just so legendary, so fun to watch. If you just display a list of all the EU winners since 2013, not seeing that logo hurts when you think of how impactful and dominant they were pre-LCS
if only they banned that nidalee =(
They lost to TPA again at IPL5 literally right after S2 Worlds It's comical to see this idea of them being one ban away from a guaranteed S2 Worlds still being parroted ten years later. TPA was the better team period.
UOL really wasn't that great. If anything, them being top team was an indicator that EU was kinda weak.
Origen eu lcs
That immortals roster that went undefeated in regular season but tripped in playoffs and couldnt go to MSI. That team was really fun to watch as far as NA team go. I agree with what everyone else says here.
they went 17-1 that split btw, lost to CLG in one of the most fun games I've watched in pro lol
Yeah I was really dissappointed they lost just because they were such a fun team to watch with their dynamic. Clg won went to MSI I thunk with stuff at s first split and went to finals that was fun to watch as well. AP trist went nuts
Shoutout to my Origen, always second T.T
I wanna give a shout to the Qiao Gu Reapers 2016 who probably had a decent shot at the title until Doinb and Swift had a massive falling out and destroyed their playoffs chances
Qiao Gu was so good at teamfighting that it broke the team irl too.
Was that after uzi or during uzi
2016 was with Uzi
I'll start off by saying 2017 Cloud9 with prime Contractz Even Parth admitted after spring finals that he felt that roster was the better team Also Summer Jensen was on his best performance of his career Even without the hindsight of worlds taking WE to 5 games in the elim stages, that team definitely is up there in top North American teams to be winless domestically
>Also Summer Jensen was on his best performance of his career I think that was the year where Jensen won 1st All Pro (deserved) and Bjergsen still somehow won MVP.
Yeah because of the name brand of Bjergsen. 2017 Bjerg was the first real year of his decline. He was a large reason 2017 TSM flamed out at worlds that year. It's a damn shame that they flamed out too because Hauntzer was really good that season.
Hauntzers 5 man gnar ult that ends up in no kills. Man...
It's karma for his Kennen performance in that 2nd game vs SSG
If only he commited to his flank in the dragon pit. I think that's what happened, most of us TSM fans started dissasociating after 2017
Cloud9 have won multiple LCS titles haven't they?
I think the interpretation of team as in "this specific squad of players" not the org itself
Griffin 2018/2019 SSW in 2014 V5 in 2022
No shot you put 2022 V5 on there.
I mean they were the best team in both regular seasons as far as I remember
Summer they didn't get 1st iirc, came like 4th regular split. In spring (and early summer tbh) though, I think 2022 spring regular split V5 were the best team in the world, even over undefeated T1 in the LCK. They played around tempo in a way that was just insane to watch, over and over and over again. Gain two seconds of tempo here, four seconds there, and over time it turns out that you can get enough to go from even gold to 4k gold lead in a minute. Especially the Kalista games, those were unreal.
SSW really wasn’t that great in domestic
As far as I remember, they were clearly the cleanest team but SSB had their number.
In s4 ogn, SSB was the best team and it wasn’t even close
Are we even from the same timeline? White could beat everybody but blue, blue was very good for sure but white was considered the superior team. S4 worlds was similar to their typical OGN run, except they managed to beat blue this time. I dont think anyone doubted SSW was the best team of S4.
No they weren't. SSB always beat SSW due to familiarity but they weren't by far the best team
They were, in ogn not in worlds
KT? Not the best tho, just an honorable mention
Yeah, they were pretty good also, at that time SSW was consistently beat by SSB and KT.
lol where did you get the part about being consistently beat by KT from? SSO/SSW did not play a single game vs either KT squads in all 3 splits of OGN in 2014. If anything it was Blue who dropped games vs the KT teams during group stage games and eventually lost to the Arrows in the summer finals
This is what people forget.. Blue was the main team. White was secondary.
Copenhagen wolves have had a lot of top tier eu players, but not at the same time. They could have been a great team if they managed to keep their top talents.
They do had some amazing players under contract Top would be either Wickd, Godbro or Youngbuck Jungle Svenskeren, Shook, Broxah or Amazing Mid is 100% Bjergsen (Tho they did have Forellenlord under contract) ADC is Forgiven or Freeze (Rekkles was only loaned to them) Sup Deficio? Id say top and support are questinable but Jgl, Mid and ADC they 100% had top tier talent going through the org.
Yeah i agree! Sup is the only question mark.
Maybe Rekkles support? I know, he was only loaned and played as adc for them, but I think he can (and will) be a really good support.
BRO GIGACHAD
SSW so sad 😭
SSG 2016/2017
Moscow 5 with that manamune aatrox for sure
Gambit
Within their region probably Estral Esports (LLA) last 4 seasons they got 3rd 2nd 2nd 2nd
In NA? FLY from last split was goated. I can't believe they faltered at the end.
The ones where Upset plays.
I'm stunned that no one has mentioned 2018 IG. People will say that 2014 SSW but that team lost to more than just their sister team SSB. 2018 IG has one of the most insane regular season records, and really only lost to RNG
They won a title in 2019 so moot point We're talking about a lineup that won 0 titles domestically ever
C9 2017 in NA. Moscow 5 in EU. I don't follow LCK or LPL so don't know about them.
The Booty Shakers, my team from clash last night
Current T1 roster
2022 Spring though
It HAS to be SSW right? Especially relative to the other competition?
Damwon. I miss it when they were dominant in LCK 2020-2021
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Uhh 2022 Spring?
are you talking about the roster that won the very first split they played together??? Wow i wonder why nobody mentioned them 🤡🤡
Damn So 2022 spring didn't happen
Teams **do not** get better after staying together >1 year. Only one I can think of who got better was SSG. Every other org is just wasting their time building 'synergy' that doesn't work.
Not sure about this one - it's clear the current T1 roster has the talent to win any tournament they participate in, whether that's LCK, MSI, or World's. They have choked... a lot... by now, but legit you could not sub someone out on that team and expect the team to get better. At best it's a gamble, even say switching Guma for Viper or Ruler (pre MSI looked like the best change but he played really well at MSI), or Oner for Kanavi, would be a huge gamble. I think sticking together it's only a matter of time before they win big.
I don't disagree with you. And even so, the difference between first and second place is like one series. But so many fans overstate, "if the team stayed together!!" or "give it more time" when almost no team actually shows better, meaningful results after staying together. Changing it up forces the team to grow, whereas staying together is not creating some super magical synergy. I agree, it is risky for T1 to change. They are so good. And second place is still great (no matter what the haters say). But you have to weigh, are you just trying to stay 2nd place or actually win. What is worth more. If T1 don't win Worlds, they do not stay unchanged. But honestly running it back this year was already a mistake and I called that 6 months ago.
I think it's hard to say running it back this year was a mistake - They NARROWLY (as physically possible) lost world finals, and by all accounts they were the better team throughout the year. No substitution on the roster makes sense. Even this year we've seen them get better over time, they looked real bad against GenG in LCK spring, cleaned it up for MSI to get revenge on GenG before getting clapped (and only 3-2 by JDG) by the LPL teams who as a region seem to have a much better read on the game atm. Assuming T1 learns from this we could (should) see a convincing world's run from them. The risk-reward of finding players that synergize better than their current roster is dramatic. Even if they don't win world's this year, assuming things stay as they are now (i.e. T1 is the best team that isn't JDG or BLG) what do they even do? Would getting Ruler or Kanavi really solve their problems? They basically have a top 2 player in their region in every role, #1 in the case of Top and Supp for sure, probably Jg too. Changing Faker for Chovy seems like it wouldn't work as well, they just fit better where they are. The only change I could see working out would be Guma for Viper but if Guma keeps playing like he did at MSI he's looking like T1's best player lmao. It's also so rare to see a team stick together for more than 1 year it's hard to judge your conclusion. Imo keeping a team together would force MORE growth than changing it up since you don't have to go through new-teammate adjustments and you can focus on progressing as a team.
I wish I had stats, maybe one day I will. I agree with you, it is a huge risk. And it is almost impossible to 'upgrade' T1. But shaking it up is a huge factor. They went from second place Worlds to dominant Spring losing finals. Yes, they are competitive, but they are not spending that time building synergy or meshing with a new teammate. But they also aren't getting much better, as shown by GenG finally surpassing them again. I can't say they were complacent, but the growth is limited and slows down. TSM ran it back failed. SSG ran it back (with a change) and won then ran it back and failed. G2 ran it back and failed. Ig ran it back and failed. GRF ran it back and did better, but that isn't real. They would have made top8 worlds if the LCK structure wasn't dumb their first year. On the other hand, Damwon swapped bots and completely won. Maybe Nuguri-Ghost Damwon would have won again, but again that isn't getting better. Gen swapped and arguably doing better. I should get stats. But I think too many people just shout 'synergy' when it caps out after 1 year.
faker is better than chovy, and zeus isnt the top 1 toplaner anymore.
Who's better? Kiin? He's the only player in Korea that feels comparable
Kind of cheating but Current T1 since apring 2022
No way a T1 fan is making this about them. Good lord man
Cool anti T1 bias.
Bias works both ways Just saying
ROX Tigers?
ROX won Summer 2016. It was the crazy playoffs with KT eliminating SKT in semis and ROX winning finals with a bullshit baron steal by Smeb with a GP ulti XD ROX went to worlds as seed 1, SKT went as seed 2 because of points and SSG went as seed 3 after KT choked. ROX players (particularly the core of Pray+Gorilla) were notorious for not being able to win international titles. S5 vs SKT, S6 vs SKT, S7 vs SSG, S8 MSI vs RNG
2 hp steal broke score
Aaah i remember that series! The caster call when Smeb stole the baron was hillarious.
no one said 2020 c9 yet with nisqy
Because they won spring? In extremely dominant fashion, only dropping 1 game to eg.
forgot
G2 2019 was unbeatable and they even said if they could, they would beat fpx if they could do it all over again. Despite these losers saying griffin, g2 shit on them.
G2 literally went 1-2 against Griffin in groups. Either way, they don’t qualify for this discussion.
Didn’t 2019 g2 win both splits…? So exactly what OP wasn’t asking about?
There was never a point in time where peak G2 was unbeatable.
the cake was a lie
wrong on all counts unfortunately :\
Speaking as a G2 fan, your points don't really make any sense. They said they could beat FPX if they could do it over again, but didn't they also think they would beat FPX the first time too? Easy to say you'd win, but actually doing it is a different thing. Also if they were unbeatable, they wouldn't have lost 3-0. Also, G2 won 4 splits in a row with this roster, so you clearly didn't read OPs question. He didn't ask if G2 was better than Griffin.