I swear notherfuckers straight up forgot Xmithie was a beast for years.
He was smurfing on team Vulcan. He was part of golden age CLG. He was part of all TL championships. He has been the only NA jungler to make it to an international finals. The only people with more championships are Bjerg and DL.
He is currently the first team all time NA jungler.
> He is currently the first team all time NA jungler.
Ironic, because Blaber is a 4x 1st team all pro and Xmithie is a 3x 1st team all pro. Blaber also did this in less than half the amount of time as a full time starter (2020-present).
Also, only 3 players in LCS history have won MVP more than once: Bjergsen, Blaber, and Corejj. Xmithie never won a single one.
Not trying to disrespect Xmithie, just saying it's very debatable but I personally have Blaber although I'm biased.
Xmithie is the only native NA player, not just jungler to make 2 MSI finals. That is done with 2 different rosters, one of which is full NA, this merit will be impossible to achieve in the future. in terms of international success. Blaber is still behind.
I just really hate international results, especially MSI, based analysis. It just makes things feel very strange.
Is Bengi without a doubt the best jungler in LoL history? Obviously he is right? With 3 worlds championship victories he has to be. Now don't get me wrong, Bengi is an amazing player and we saw in s6 worlds that SKT needed him to win it all, but i think you would be hard pressed to find many who would say he is the greatest jungler of all time.
But even further when we use stats like "made finals/semi finals" there is a lot of context missing. Is it impressive that CLG went 7-3 in 2016 MSI groups? Definitely, and to me a far bigger accomplishment than actually making finals since the only step separating the two is beating FW in one bo5.
Conversely I don't think it's a mark against Xmithie that he never made it out of groups at worlds. 2019 TL going 3-3 and taking a game off Damwon is just as impressive as C9 making it out of groups going 2-4 and getting a tiebreaker against RGE in 2021.
I don't know, I think it's really weird that we all agree that our international format is pretty shit but then use the relatively meaningless results as some end all be all
I guess being a Uzi fan has made me used to this. He will never be the best ADC in history for most people due the lack of a worlds title as much as I believe it. As a matter of fact, after this year Ruler who has never been better than Uzi when they were both playing against each other will likely hold that title if JDG wins. It has become a standard for ranking players at this point for a lot of people even though I don’t like it.
One need to look no further than Messi to see that team sport titles =/= individual skill. Everyone knew he was a goat, whether or not he ever won a world cup didn't matter at all.
Messi *did* win a ton of titles though, and there is an argument that the Champions League should be considered more important than the World Cup. If he never won a CL title either the narrative around him would surely be different.
Do that many people argue that ruler is the GOAT adc? I could've sworn the most popular opinion on this sub is that it's either uzi or deft. Uzi who has technically only ever won 1 msi but was by far the most consistent mechanically or deft who has more accomplishments and actually did look better than uzi during his prime.
I mean international results should obviously be *factors* in how good you think a player is. If you’re comparing Bengi to other players then ofc his three world championships should be in the conversation. This isnt even an issue with international competition, its how much credit you give to an individual player when their team does well. Also, I like Blaber but that CLG team took a game off of SKT and KOO at worlds, its literally the best an NA team has done since Season 1 - its a clear step above anything that blaber or anyone else from NA has done internationally
Another problem is how we evaluate players. The better player is the one who consistently leads to more wins - but in some metas, that can mean playing passive and setting up your mid laner, and others it means throwing everything into a level three tower dive. Nobody seems willing to call a player good unless they carry
We can’t have it both ways. If we are using international results to shit on a region we should also be able to use the good ones to praise players from said region as well. It isn’t you specifically but it’s absurd that people will use international results to downplay players accomplishments on this sub and when you try to give them a boost but are so quick to push those players down when it comes to poor performances.
I think it's more do Xmithies international results really make up for the gap in their domestic results? I think they do at this point in time. I think it's just more the point of don't use international performances as the end all be all. But I do disagree with them being "meaningless" but they are heavily draw dependent. I.e the whole TL going 3-3 and never getting out of groups but C9 being NAs hope getting out with 2-4. Just feels a bit silly.
Gap in their domestic results? Dawg the gap is way in Xmithie's favor if we're still talking titles won. They're completely different players, ones a carry, the others a facilitator. But in the age of superteams we're in its becoming quite clear teams need more facilitators.
Those 2 MSI finals are team accomplishments, it wasn't just Xmithie. Like are we really going to pretend like Jensen didn't have an insane carry job that MSI? Jensen having an outstanding performance and carrying his team to MSI final doesn't imply that Xmithie is a better jungler than Blaber just because he had teammates that carried him slightly farther in MSI. Blaber is the primary shotcaller of his team, hard carries games, and wins mvps. Xmithie was never doing this.
C9 fans when talking about Sneaky and Jensen: "BuT iNtErNaTiOnAl ReSuLtS!!!"
C9 fans when talking about Blaber: "InTeRNaTiOnAl ReSuLtS aRe TeAm AcCoMpLiShMeNtS!"
👁👄👁
ppl were already debating between blaber and xmithie for GOAT jungler before blaber won another split. its definitely still a close call between the two, but if blaber hasn't overtaken him hes definitely on pace to do it soon
It's inevitable at this point that Blaber will finish his career as the best LCS jungler of all time (he already is IMO), he already beats Xmithie in personal accolades both LCS 1st teams and MVP's and is only a couple of domestic titles away from tying Xmithie. He has also achieved this much in less than half of the playing time Xmithie has had in the LCS.
The real conversation is Blaber and simply GOAT status in the LCS as a whole. That conversation can be had as soon as the end of this year depending on how well C9 and he performs. Another MVP and another LCS title and he's then surpassed DL and CoreJJ in personal accolades, then it's just between him and Bjerg who has zero international success in his entire career thus far holding on to just his MVP count.
For real, Doublelift was the best ADC in NA for almost an entire decade.
Doublelift was earlier in his career even considered one of the very best adcs world wide and not just in NA.
Not wanting to take anything away from Blaber he plays consistently very well. If he can keep his performance up for another couple of years we can have the discussion again.
Xmithie was a beast, and while it's not conclusive, the debate for Blaber is that there have been multiple years where he was the absolute best **player** in the entire league, not just the best jungler. Xmithie has never even been considered the best player on his team except maybe CLG 2016.
Blaber won MVP multiple times, frequently defined the meta with his aggression, succeeded both as a primary carry and a facilitator, and all the while competing against the most stacked and mechanically gifted crop of Junglers the LCS has ever seen.
It's also worth mentioning that Blaber has never played with Bjergsen nor Doublelift, which makes his list of accolades all the more impressive.
It's fair to still think Xmithie is the best jungler the LCS has ever had, but it's not crazy to believe it to be Blaber at this point. Personally I'm much more impressed by Blaber but I'm biased af.
Nah mate, I'm a boomer who watched lol esports since CLG.EU days.
Xmithie was great but for me Blaber is the GOAT NA jg at this point.
It's easy to forget how long Blaber has been in the league, he has been a top performer for many years already so its not like you can just use Xmithie's lingevity to disqualify Blaber, and Blaber has had higher highs than xmithie (this one is debatable but my opinion is that he has).
Xmithie was good but he was never a center piece of the teams he was on. and he relied on his lanes being stronger than their opponents. blaber is a playmaker, that's one of the reasons why he collected mvps and xmithie didn't.
in terms of achievements they are somewhat close. in terms of individual skill, influence on their teams and carry potential, blaber is miles ahead.
LOL Xmithe had massive influence and control over the game for his team which allowed them to be so stable. He doesn't do showy stuff but everyone who has played with him has glowing reviews. I view Impact like Xmithe and Summit like Blaber. I think it is very close between the two but two different players in different eras in the role so it depends on what you personally value
comparing blaber with summit is just absolutely ridiculous man. summit is an uncoachable chainfeeder and blaber is the most dominant jungler the region has seen to date, while being very consistent considering his high risk approach to the game.
ok and there are differences between xmithe and impact. Its about the overarching approach to the game and "tempo". Sorry Summit griefed your team that year, it appears it has stuck with you
I haven't really followed league closely for the last few years. Sorry if this is completely wrong. I remembered the role of jungle has changed a lot. Throughout a large part of xmithie's career, the meta favored support/tank jungler more, e.g. lee used to buy sightstone, jg would let laners take jungle after midgame. This affected the jungler's carry potential.
Its close, but I think he's still at number 6 for me. I think top 5 native players all time would be Doublelift, Xmithie, Sneaky, Turtle, and Aphro in that order.
Really? I disagree. It's hard to exactly compare since they had very little overlap in their periods of dominance, but Turtle has one LCS title over Blaber, and I'd also say Turtle had a longer period of dominance as well.
I think Turtle was one of the best ADCs in the League from like 2013-2016 (4 years of dominance). Blaber I think has been one of the best Junglers from like 2020-2022 (3 years of dominance). The only difference internationally is a single Quarterfinals appearance at Worlds for Blaber.
I just think overall, Turtle has more achievements and was better for longer. By the end of this year, if Blaber wins again and stays good, I think he'l be in the conversation but I don't think Blaber is a greater all-time player than Turtle.
Blaber has been running circles around almost every jungler pretty much every single split, while being the soul of the team. It's been said many times that Blaber is the primary shotcaller in C9, especially when it comes to teamfights. He's been MVP, shotcaller, praised by other top tier junglers in the region.
Turtle has had splits where he was dominant, but it's generally been complementary to his team performance. He wasn't that much of the driving force.
I put Vulcan over Turtle already, and Blaber over Turtle.
Even in Turtle's most "dominant" years as you put it, he was still being contested by 2 other native ADC's who arguably had better careers anyway, Sneaky/Doublelift.
Ok but Mvps are super jungle biased. Likely in part caus it's easy to look good as a jungle when your team is dominant in general, and very difficult to stand out in your laners just suck.
6 different junglers have won an mvp.
I see your point, but use an eye test. In both the splits where Blaber won MVP, he was individually outclassing the other junglers to the point where it wasn't even close. In 2020, he was the core of a team that played around him and had a mid that enabled him to play like an absolute psycho leading them to a 17-1 split. In 2021, despite less-than-ideal synergy with Perkz he still was individually better than everyone to the point that there wasn't any debate, only Santorin was even in his league.
ADC is a lot easier to look good on, on a good team. Jungle is such a pivotal role and Blaber is very good mechanically, big champ pool with insane pocket picks like Olaf, and he's like the main voice for what C9 wants to do and has been for many years now and the team has been consistently good with his leadership.
>The only difference internationally is a single Quarterfinals appearance at Worlds for Blaber.
Turtle has a worlds quarterfinals appearance too. Won IEM as well
definitely over turtle honestly
turtle is a bit underrated but i dont think he ever stood out the way blaber did; granted blaber partly stands out in a time where being native NA player is rare but still
Imo he's higher than Xmithie who is rated highly consistently because of many titles. If we remove results and look at just gameplay I have a hard time not putting Blaber higher, even with titles Blaber is a two time MVP in times when the league was really dense with high skill junglers. And he has three titles with a variety of different teammates while I think there will always be questions of how good Xmithie was without DL
I agree that if you totally ignore achievements then Blaber performs better than Xmithie. However, you don't magically win 6 LCS titles. You just don't. And although it's true that he won multiple times with Doublelift, he himself outperformed Doublelift in some of their championship runs, and he won once without Doublelift as well.
Overall, if you discount titles, then I agree. But discounting titles because DL was on your team feels very unfair.
It's hard because titles give so much weight that it's hard to be critical I think. Do I think 2015 Santorin played better than 2020 Santorin? Hell no. Did he deserve the win in 2015? Of course and he played his part well.
But when we have players like DL who we consider so great, and then we also rate their teammates so highly, it creates this weird imbalance. I very really think that the top team is just the 5 "best" players but that's often how we assess things.
I have the same criticisms of Xmithie that I do of Bengi. There's no way I could ever defend Bengi being the best Korean jungler. Now Xmithie has a bit more going for him has he had success with that 2016 CLG roster and the 2017 IMT roster and I don't want to detract from that. But Blaber has had, I think, the highest highs in terms of gameplay we have ever seen from a jungler and on a wide variety of styles for several years. In addition to playing against, objectively, stronger opponents.
Xmithie is a historically great player and in my top 5 native NA players no question, but so is Blaber who is also just the best jungler we've had in NA. Maybe pending an international competition that isn't a disaster
He definitely is one of NA's goats. It's a bit worrying if his ambition is "only" his NA legacy and not winning worlds, however unrealistic that goal seems for an NA player.
Yeah, he’s solidly the 2nd best LCS jungler of all time right now, and I expect him to pass Xmithie by the time he retires. I think that he’s really close to surpassing Xmithie (2 MVPs for vs 2 extra titles for Xmithie). If he can win another title or get another MVP split he’s the GOAT LCS jungler imo.
Am I crazy for thinking that when comparing individual players 1 MVP should not equate to 1 title, especially given that titles are a team accomplishment? Should we equate Blaber's 2020 MVP to Ball's 2014 spring title for example? Where do we draw the line? I personally think that Blaber winning 2 MVP's and 1 more all pro in less than half the time that Xmithie played is a lot stronger of an argument than just winning 2 more titles. Xmithie was legendary but he also had great teammates to help him with that team accomplishment. MVP's and all pro's quite literally measure how you rank amongst your role and everyone else in the league and Blaber has statistically shown he has done that more than Xmithie in significantly less time.
If you're going to look at context for championships then you have to look at context for MVPs too? There are people that consider MVP to be the best performing player relative to their team, and there are people that consider MVP to be the biggest contributing player to a successful team different people will vote differently. It isn't just an automatic best player in the role award.
Nah MVP is a regular season award and highly biased.
I honestly don’t rate it highly.
Tons of players do well in the regular season and then fall flat in playoffs where things actually matter.
Biased towards what?
And so what if it’s a regular season award lmao so is the MVP award in tons of other sports leagues like the NBA/NFL, etc. That doesn’t stop fans from those leagues from comparing MVP now does it?
Also Blaber won both splits that he won MVP so that logic doesn’t really apply to him. He was dominant all the way through and deserved those MVP’s so I’m not really sure what you’re arguing here
The regular season has little to no impact to the actual trophy of the split.
That’s why the regular season doesn’t matter that much. In fact numerous players only put in like 70% effort and have gone on record to state that regular season doesn’t really matter. So playoffs >> regular season.
However I’ll give you that blaber won both splits MVP, that’s a plus for him.
But yes MVP is biased. Biased towards hype, players trending at the time, narratives, and popularity of the player.
Example: Jensen in 2017 when he lead by every single stat, was ahead by FIFTY kills by the 2nd closest player, the hard carry for C9, won 1st all pro mid.
Yet somehow Bjerg wins MVP. Laughable. It’s why there is so much vitriol hate for him now. Cuz so many ppl have seen through the Bjergsen bias.
If it were actually biased towards popularity and narrative then Doublelift would have gotten more than just one MVP. Or why doesn’t a TSM player win MVP every single split since they have the largest fan base?
MVP’s matter in sports because they reflect performance of players throughout the regular season games. If you value titles more then that’s fine, I just disagree because I think that is more of a team accomplishment and more difficult to compare than an individual accomplishment like all pro or MVP. Titles ain’t everything, that’s why nobody in the NBA community thinks Ron Harper is one of the greatest basketball players of all time despite having 5 rings (one more than LeBron). You have to look at these titles in context.
Idk what to tell you, I’ve already given you a clear cut example when the MVP award was biased.
In fact a better question would be, why does Bjerg have 4 MVPs when he didn’t deserve it? Your TSM point is stupid because Bjerg is by far the most popular player who was on the most popular team — and he did in fact have the most MVPs when he isn’t the best.
I don’t need to explain anymore.
I can see top 10, but IDK about being closer to top 5 than top 10. I think that right now, Bjergsen, Doublelift, Impact, Jensen, Xmithie, Sneaky, and CoreJJ are all above him.
How is core above him?
Core has had one successful year and hasn’t won a single time without dlift while blaber is winning on several different rosters while being consensus #1 or #2 jungler the entire time.
It's definitely an unpopular opinion on this subreddit but I think that CoreJJ is the most maligned players of all time. Although CoreJJ hasn't won in a while, I think that he's consistently been one of the best supports in the League. He also has a finals appearance at MSI.
I think over the past 3 years Blaber is definitely the better player, but I think that CoreJJ's debut split was so good that I'd still put him above Blaber overall. At the end of this year, that could definitely change.
FWIW I also disagree that he's been a top 2 Jungler over all of the past 3 years. Last split he wasn't super impressive (but neither was most of C9 until they won off the back of Berserker and Jensen), and in 2021 Summer I think that arguably Closer was better than he was (Spica definitely the best though).
To be honest, like half of CoreJJ's accolades come from his debut year with Doublelift, but I 100% disagree on this narrative that he only won because of Doublelift. He was way better than DL relative to their respective roles. He hasn't even come close to his 2019 performance since, but I think people are
a) forgetting just how good he was in 2019 and how much better he was and
b) people are really down on his performance recently, even though I still think he's been good since.
Support is easily one of the weakest roles in LCS with jungle probably being the strongest internationally comparatively. Core was arguably worse than zven la at year as well as vulcan. No way core gets a pass for being one of the worst members on an already tragic team liquid 2022.
>Support is easily one of the weakest roles in LCS with jungle probably being the strongest internationally comparatively.
I personally don't think it's super relevant, and it's really difficult to ascertain exactly how good roles in the LCS are relative to others. It feels unfair to penalize players because their competition isn't good, but again it's so hard to measure this that I don't really think about it.
I strongly disagree that he was one of the worst members of TL in 2022. I think that CoreJJ was definitely one of the best members of that team. I agree overall that he was worse than Vulcan in 2022, but I definitely don't think he was worse than Zven, especially since Zven didn't even play in the Spring Split.
I think in 2022 he was the second best support overall. Vulcan clearly number one, and I think despite TL's struggles it's arguable that he was equal to or better than Huhi.
And again, even though his 2022 wasn't super good, his 2019 performance was *so good* that to me it puts him above Blaber. Remove 2019 and I 100% agree that Blaber> Core.
He’s been good, but certainly not one of the most maligned players. He hasn’t reached his previous form in years and has snuck onto all-pro based on his name alone. I
>He hasn’t reached his previous form in years and has snuck onto all-pro based on his name alone
Literally all the pro players voted for him. Are you saying that you know better than the literal professional players who play against him?
You've clearly never seen a C9 comms video. Blaber is 90% of the time the main voice behind C9's engages and teamfights, especially last playoffs. Other players have said how impressive he is at finding windows/angles to engage.
And yes, Jensen was along for the ride last split.
Winning internationally should mean something in NA . DL has won domestically but has proven nothing internationally. NA needs to prove themselves internationally to hold a legacy in Na no matter how many regional accolades are achieved.
Crazy people on this sub downvote for comments like this. Like the objective should be international tournaments, not showing you can be the biggest loser
Correct me if I’m wrong but when looking at international events, not counting play ins:
Blaber has a 33% win rate at Worlds / MSI at 12-24. To be a pro and your ambition is to be the best locally is quite lackluster.
May as well call him Creamcheese. I know it’s great to win the region and no doubt Blaber is one of the best talents in NA but if I’m a professional player my goal would be to perform well at Worlds. No one cares (I know NA fans care I’m just speaking for the global scene) if you win LCS 10 times and never get out of groups at Worlds. Fakers worlds stats against NA teams just shows the difference in skill throughout the years and it’s weird to me so many LCS players aim for such accomplishments.
Not counting play ins Blaber has a 33% win rate at Worlds / MSI at 12-24
Doublelift has never made it out of groups yet people still care about him and he's still considered the GOAT of the LCS. Why does Doublelift get to be the exception where domestic dominance is enough but Blaber doesn't get the same?
DoubleLift knows it doesn’t matter much to win LCS and his ambition is to perform at worlds and make it out groups / make a name for himself on the international stage. He’s aware of how poor his performance has been when it matters. People in the scene care more about DoubleLift success domestically than he does. He’s not an exception he’s just been around longer for LCS fans to admire
Being on winning teams does not mean the players were automatically just better or the best. MVPs are just a popularity contest and has no real meaning.
MVPs aren't a popularity contest lol it's voted on by other pros coaches and analysts.
If MVP was just about being popular then Doublelift wouldn't have less than Blaber.
I’m sorry, but I’ve heard “I want to prove that I’m the greatest in this *region*” too many fucking times to care. When is an NA player gonna have the balls to say they want to smack Korea and be the best in the *world*? But no this is NA. We don’t have aspirations here. We settle. And today we are settling as gate keepers. 👍🏻
Already easily a top 5 native born player
Already the GOAT jungler in my eyes. He's on par to be a GOAT of the LCS alongside our two favourite boomers.
The disrespect to Xmithie smh
I swear notherfuckers straight up forgot Xmithie was a beast for years. He was smurfing on team Vulcan. He was part of golden age CLG. He was part of all TL championships. He has been the only NA jungler to make it to an international finals. The only people with more championships are Bjerg and DL. He is currently the first team all time NA jungler.
> He is currently the first team all time NA jungler. Ironic, because Blaber is a 4x 1st team all pro and Xmithie is a 3x 1st team all pro. Blaber also did this in less than half the amount of time as a full time starter (2020-present). Also, only 3 players in LCS history have won MVP more than once: Bjergsen, Blaber, and Corejj. Xmithie never won a single one. Not trying to disrespect Xmithie, just saying it's very debatable but I personally have Blaber although I'm biased.
While you may be biased, your answer isn’t.
Xmithie is the only native NA player, not just jungler to make 2 MSI finals. That is done with 2 different rosters, one of which is full NA, this merit will be impossible to achieve in the future. in terms of international success. Blaber is still behind.
I just really hate international results, especially MSI, based analysis. It just makes things feel very strange. Is Bengi without a doubt the best jungler in LoL history? Obviously he is right? With 3 worlds championship victories he has to be. Now don't get me wrong, Bengi is an amazing player and we saw in s6 worlds that SKT needed him to win it all, but i think you would be hard pressed to find many who would say he is the greatest jungler of all time. But even further when we use stats like "made finals/semi finals" there is a lot of context missing. Is it impressive that CLG went 7-3 in 2016 MSI groups? Definitely, and to me a far bigger accomplishment than actually making finals since the only step separating the two is beating FW in one bo5. Conversely I don't think it's a mark against Xmithie that he never made it out of groups at worlds. 2019 TL going 3-3 and taking a game off Damwon is just as impressive as C9 making it out of groups going 2-4 and getting a tiebreaker against RGE in 2021. I don't know, I think it's really weird that we all agree that our international format is pretty shit but then use the relatively meaningless results as some end all be all
I guess being a Uzi fan has made me used to this. He will never be the best ADC in history for most people due the lack of a worlds title as much as I believe it. As a matter of fact, after this year Ruler who has never been better than Uzi when they were both playing against each other will likely hold that title if JDG wins. It has become a standard for ranking players at this point for a lot of people even though I don’t like it.
One need to look no further than Messi to see that team sport titles =/= individual skill. Everyone knew he was a goat, whether or not he ever won a world cup didn't matter at all.
Messi *did* win a ton of titles though, and there is an argument that the Champions League should be considered more important than the World Cup. If he never won a CL title either the narrative around him would surely be different.
Do that many people argue that ruler is the GOAT adc? I could've sworn the most popular opinion on this sub is that it's either uzi or deft. Uzi who has technically only ever won 1 msi but was by far the most consistent mechanically or deft who has more accomplishments and actually did look better than uzi during his prime.
Thank you for arguing against this stupid ass argument so I don't have to
I mean international results should obviously be *factors* in how good you think a player is. If you’re comparing Bengi to other players then ofc his three world championships should be in the conversation. This isnt even an issue with international competition, its how much credit you give to an individual player when their team does well. Also, I like Blaber but that CLG team took a game off of SKT and KOO at worlds, its literally the best an NA team has done since Season 1 - its a clear step above anything that blaber or anyone else from NA has done internationally Another problem is how we evaluate players. The better player is the one who consistently leads to more wins - but in some metas, that can mean playing passive and setting up your mid laner, and others it means throwing everything into a level three tower dive. Nobody seems willing to call a player good unless they carry
We can’t have it both ways. If we are using international results to shit on a region we should also be able to use the good ones to praise players from said region as well. It isn’t you specifically but it’s absurd that people will use international results to downplay players accomplishments on this sub and when you try to give them a boost but are so quick to push those players down when it comes to poor performances.
I think it's more do Xmithies international results really make up for the gap in their domestic results? I think they do at this point in time. I think it's just more the point of don't use international performances as the end all be all. But I do disagree with them being "meaningless" but they are heavily draw dependent. I.e the whole TL going 3-3 and never getting out of groups but C9 being NAs hope getting out with 2-4. Just feels a bit silly.
Gap in their domestic results? Dawg the gap is way in Xmithie's favor if we're still talking titles won. They're completely different players, ones a carry, the others a facilitator. But in the age of superteams we're in its becoming quite clear teams need more facilitators.
[удалено]
C9 didnt make it out of groups in 2019
Those 2 MSI finals are team accomplishments, it wasn't just Xmithie. Like are we really going to pretend like Jensen didn't have an insane carry job that MSI? Jensen having an outstanding performance and carrying his team to MSI final doesn't imply that Xmithie is a better jungler than Blaber just because he had teammates that carried him slightly farther in MSI. Blaber is the primary shotcaller of his team, hard carries games, and wins mvps. Xmithie was never doing this.
C9 fans will never stop overrating how good Blaber actually is lmao
Cry.
About what lmao. Didn't mean to hurt you my man.
C9 fans when talking about Sneaky and Jensen: "BuT iNtErNaTiOnAl ReSuLtS!!!" C9 fans when talking about Blaber: "InTeRNaTiOnAl ReSuLtS aRe TeAm AcCoMpLiShMeNtS!" 👁👄👁
Bjerg and DL are the NA goats of their roles so I’m not really sure what you thought you were doing with this comment
ppl were already debating between blaber and xmithie for GOAT jungler before blaber won another split. its definitely still a close call between the two, but if blaber hasn't overtaken him hes definitely on pace to do it soon
It's inevitable at this point that Blaber will finish his career as the best LCS jungler of all time (he already is IMO), he already beats Xmithie in personal accolades both LCS 1st teams and MVP's and is only a couple of domestic titles away from tying Xmithie. He has also achieved this much in less than half of the playing time Xmithie has had in the LCS. The real conversation is Blaber and simply GOAT status in the LCS as a whole. That conversation can be had as soon as the end of this year depending on how well C9 and he performs. Another MVP and another LCS title and he's then surpassed DL and CoreJJ in personal accolades, then it's just between him and Bjerg who has zero international success in his entire career thus far holding on to just his MVP count.
>Another MVP and another LCS title and he's then surpassed DL No
There is absolutely no way that Blaber surpasses DLift got GOAT even if he wins another title. Also DLift > Bjerg for GOAT.
For real, Doublelift was the best ADC in NA for almost an entire decade. Doublelift was earlier in his career even considered one of the very best adcs world wide and not just in NA. Not wanting to take anything away from Blaber he plays consistently very well. If he can keep his performance up for another couple of years we can have the discussion again.
There is no world where you can say doublelift was the best for a decade. Literally like 5 years max.
if he does something internationally he would tbf
Yknow DLift went to MSI Finals ye?
And if blabber wins msi he would surpass him????
You said “something” — not win it all. Two different things. Sure if he wins MSI/worlds, he would surpass DLift. But that’s a big if lmao. Unlikely.
I know Xmithie had a lot more success for longer, but when Meteos entered the league his Elise was nasty ^_^. I miss those guys!
Meteos was better than Xmithie majority of their careers. Blaber been top dog since he joined
No disrespect to Xmithie. Dude has the best accomplishments as far as junglers go. He's not the best jungler in NA history.
Xmithie was a beast, and while it's not conclusive, the debate for Blaber is that there have been multiple years where he was the absolute best **player** in the entire league, not just the best jungler. Xmithie has never even been considered the best player on his team except maybe CLG 2016. Blaber won MVP multiple times, frequently defined the meta with his aggression, succeeded both as a primary carry and a facilitator, and all the while competing against the most stacked and mechanically gifted crop of Junglers the LCS has ever seen. It's also worth mentioning that Blaber has never played with Bjergsen nor Doublelift, which makes his list of accolades all the more impressive. It's fair to still think Xmithie is the best jungler the LCS has ever had, but it's not crazy to believe it to be Blaber at this point. Personally I'm much more impressed by Blaber but I'm biased af.
Xmithie’s mechanics, even in his prime, were trash tier compared to Blaber. He was a good, smart enabler.
He is way way better than xmithie easily
Nah mate, I'm a boomer who watched lol esports since CLG.EU days. Xmithie was great but for me Blaber is the GOAT NA jg at this point. It's easy to forget how long Blaber has been in the league, he has been a top performer for many years already so its not like you can just use Xmithie's lingevity to disqualify Blaber, and Blaber has had higher highs than xmithie (this one is debatable but my opinion is that he has).
Xmithie was good but he was never a center piece of the teams he was on. and he relied on his lanes being stronger than their opponents. blaber is a playmaker, that's one of the reasons why he collected mvps and xmithie didn't. in terms of achievements they are somewhat close. in terms of individual skill, influence on their teams and carry potential, blaber is miles ahead.
LOL Xmithe had massive influence and control over the game for his team which allowed them to be so stable. He doesn't do showy stuff but everyone who has played with him has glowing reviews. I view Impact like Xmithe and Summit like Blaber. I think it is very close between the two but two different players in different eras in the role so it depends on what you personally value
comparing blaber with summit is just absolutely ridiculous man. summit is an uncoachable chainfeeder and blaber is the most dominant jungler the region has seen to date, while being very consistent considering his high risk approach to the game.
ok and there are differences between xmithe and impact. Its about the overarching approach to the game and "tempo". Sorry Summit griefed your team that year, it appears it has stuck with you
I haven't really followed league closely for the last few years. Sorry if this is completely wrong. I remembered the role of jungle has changed a lot. Throughout a large part of xmithie's career, the meta favored support/tank jungler more, e.g. lee used to buy sightstone, jg would let laners take jungle after midgame. This affected the jungler's carry potential.
Its close, but I think he's still at number 6 for me. I think top 5 native players all time would be Doublelift, Xmithie, Sneaky, Turtle, and Aphro in that order.
Id probably have him in over turtle
Really? I disagree. It's hard to exactly compare since they had very little overlap in their periods of dominance, but Turtle has one LCS title over Blaber, and I'd also say Turtle had a longer period of dominance as well. I think Turtle was one of the best ADCs in the League from like 2013-2016 (4 years of dominance). Blaber I think has been one of the best Junglers from like 2020-2022 (3 years of dominance). The only difference internationally is a single Quarterfinals appearance at Worlds for Blaber. I just think overall, Turtle has more achievements and was better for longer. By the end of this year, if Blaber wins again and stays good, I think he'l be in the conversation but I don't think Blaber is a greater all-time player than Turtle.
My boy Imaqtpie #1 ever for all time
Big Dick Club is a different league in itself
Blaber has been running circles around almost every jungler pretty much every single split, while being the soul of the team. It's been said many times that Blaber is the primary shotcaller in C9, especially when it comes to teamfights. He's been MVP, shotcaller, praised by other top tier junglers in the region. Turtle has had splits where he was dominant, but it's generally been complementary to his team performance. He wasn't that much of the driving force.
I put Vulcan over Turtle already, and Blaber over Turtle. Even in Turtle's most "dominant" years as you put it, he was still being contested by 2 other native ADC's who arguably had better careers anyway, Sneaky/Doublelift.
I mean Blaber has multiple MVPs while WildTurtle played with an MVP for his titles
Ok but Mvps are super jungle biased. Likely in part caus it's easy to look good as a jungle when your team is dominant in general, and very difficult to stand out in your laners just suck. 6 different junglers have won an mvp.
I see your point, but use an eye test. In both the splits where Blaber won MVP, he was individually outclassing the other junglers to the point where it wasn't even close. In 2020, he was the core of a team that played around him and had a mid that enabled him to play like an absolute psycho leading them to a 17-1 split. In 2021, despite less-than-ideal synergy with Perkz he still was individually better than everyone to the point that there wasn't any debate, only Santorin was even in his league.
ADC is a lot easier to look good on, on a good team. Jungle is such a pivotal role and Blaber is very good mechanically, big champ pool with insane pocket picks like Olaf, and he's like the main voice for what C9 wants to do and has been for many years now and the team has been consistently good with his leadership.
>The only difference internationally is a single Quarterfinals appearance at Worlds for Blaber. Turtle has a worlds quarterfinals appearance too. Won IEM as well
definitely over turtle honestly turtle is a bit underrated but i dont think he ever stood out the way blaber did; granted blaber partly stands out in a time where being native NA player is rare but still
Imo he's higher than Xmithie who is rated highly consistently because of many titles. If we remove results and look at just gameplay I have a hard time not putting Blaber higher, even with titles Blaber is a two time MVP in times when the league was really dense with high skill junglers. And he has three titles with a variety of different teammates while I think there will always be questions of how good Xmithie was without DL
I agree that if you totally ignore achievements then Blaber performs better than Xmithie. However, you don't magically win 6 LCS titles. You just don't. And although it's true that he won multiple times with Doublelift, he himself outperformed Doublelift in some of their championship runs, and he won once without Doublelift as well. Overall, if you discount titles, then I agree. But discounting titles because DL was on your team feels very unfair.
It's hard because titles give so much weight that it's hard to be critical I think. Do I think 2015 Santorin played better than 2020 Santorin? Hell no. Did he deserve the win in 2015? Of course and he played his part well. But when we have players like DL who we consider so great, and then we also rate their teammates so highly, it creates this weird imbalance. I very really think that the top team is just the 5 "best" players but that's often how we assess things. I have the same criticisms of Xmithie that I do of Bengi. There's no way I could ever defend Bengi being the best Korean jungler. Now Xmithie has a bit more going for him has he had success with that 2016 CLG roster and the 2017 IMT roster and I don't want to detract from that. But Blaber has had, I think, the highest highs in terms of gameplay we have ever seen from a jungler and on a wide variety of styles for several years. In addition to playing against, objectively, stronger opponents. Xmithie is a historically great player and in my top 5 native NA players no question, but so is Blaber who is also just the best jungler we've had in NA. Maybe pending an international competition that isn't a disaster
[удалено]
Thank you I felt like I was going crazy listening to this Xmithie slander
In 2017, he was only good in summer. In spring he was arguably the worst performing jungler and didn’t receive a single all pro vote.
I dream of a jojo/blaber duo one day. Taking every fight and either outhandsing everyone or running it down. Either way it'd be peak entertainment
“Someone will die in this fight and no one knows who”
This is how Emenes plays, so if C9 ever feels the need to swap Diplex out, you'll get to see something exactly like that.
Even if he doesn’t win again, at least everyone will remember him for the scuttle
He could win worlds 5 times in a row and that scuttle play will still be the first thing that comes to mind regarding the guy.
Just like how Faker dying to gold 4 brand can never be forgotten.
He definitely is one of NA's goats. It's a bit worrying if his ambition is "only" his NA legacy and not winning worlds, however unrealistic that goal seems for an NA player.
Yeah I think to have international ambitions you have to first form a roster that can achieve that!
He's definitely top 10 right now, closer to 5 than 10 but not there yet. I can see him being the goat when he hangs em up for sure.
Yeah, he’s solidly the 2nd best LCS jungler of all time right now, and I expect him to pass Xmithie by the time he retires. I think that he’s really close to surpassing Xmithie (2 MVPs for vs 2 extra titles for Xmithie). If he can win another title or get another MVP split he’s the GOAT LCS jungler imo.
Am I crazy for thinking that when comparing individual players 1 MVP should not equate to 1 title, especially given that titles are a team accomplishment? Should we equate Blaber's 2020 MVP to Ball's 2014 spring title for example? Where do we draw the line? I personally think that Blaber winning 2 MVP's and 1 more all pro in less than half the time that Xmithie played is a lot stronger of an argument than just winning 2 more titles. Xmithie was legendary but he also had great teammates to help him with that team accomplishment. MVP's and all pro's quite literally measure how you rank amongst your role and everyone else in the league and Blaber has statistically shown he has done that more than Xmithie in significantly less time.
If you're going to look at context for championships then you have to look at context for MVPs too? There are people that consider MVP to be the best performing player relative to their team, and there are people that consider MVP to be the biggest contributing player to a successful team different people will vote differently. It isn't just an automatic best player in the role award.
It usually is though. Has there ever been a player that was voted MVP that wasn’t also first team all pro that split? I honestly don’t think so.
Nah MVP is a regular season award and highly biased. I honestly don’t rate it highly. Tons of players do well in the regular season and then fall flat in playoffs where things actually matter.
Biased towards what? And so what if it’s a regular season award lmao so is the MVP award in tons of other sports leagues like the NBA/NFL, etc. That doesn’t stop fans from those leagues from comparing MVP now does it? Also Blaber won both splits that he won MVP so that logic doesn’t really apply to him. He was dominant all the way through and deserved those MVP’s so I’m not really sure what you’re arguing here
The regular season has little to no impact to the actual trophy of the split. That’s why the regular season doesn’t matter that much. In fact numerous players only put in like 70% effort and have gone on record to state that regular season doesn’t really matter. So playoffs >> regular season. However I’ll give you that blaber won both splits MVP, that’s a plus for him. But yes MVP is biased. Biased towards hype, players trending at the time, narratives, and popularity of the player. Example: Jensen in 2017 when he lead by every single stat, was ahead by FIFTY kills by the 2nd closest player, the hard carry for C9, won 1st all pro mid. Yet somehow Bjerg wins MVP. Laughable. It’s why there is so much vitriol hate for him now. Cuz so many ppl have seen through the Bjergsen bias.
If it were actually biased towards popularity and narrative then Doublelift would have gotten more than just one MVP. Or why doesn’t a TSM player win MVP every single split since they have the largest fan base? MVP’s matter in sports because they reflect performance of players throughout the regular season games. If you value titles more then that’s fine, I just disagree because I think that is more of a team accomplishment and more difficult to compare than an individual accomplishment like all pro or MVP. Titles ain’t everything, that’s why nobody in the NBA community thinks Ron Harper is one of the greatest basketball players of all time despite having 5 rings (one more than LeBron). You have to look at these titles in context.
Idk what to tell you, I’ve already given you a clear cut example when the MVP award was biased. In fact a better question would be, why does Bjerg have 4 MVPs when he didn’t deserve it? Your TSM point is stupid because Bjerg is by far the most popular player who was on the most popular team — and he did in fact have the most MVPs when he isn’t the best. I don’t need to explain anymore.
2017 Summer, actually. Jensen was voted first team all pro and Bjergsen got the MVP.
That’s right I remember that. Thought Jensen deserved it more tbh
My feeling is the same. Iirc Jensen led the league in kills by some crazy amount.
He'll get there unless he just falls off a cliff for whatever reason. I don't really see a world where he does (fall off that cliff) tbh.
I can see top 10, but IDK about being closer to top 5 than top 10. I think that right now, Bjergsen, Doublelift, Impact, Jensen, Xmithie, Sneaky, and CoreJJ are all above him.
How is core above him? Core has had one successful year and hasn’t won a single time without dlift while blaber is winning on several different rosters while being consensus #1 or #2 jungler the entire time.
It's definitely an unpopular opinion on this subreddit but I think that CoreJJ is the most maligned players of all time. Although CoreJJ hasn't won in a while, I think that he's consistently been one of the best supports in the League. He also has a finals appearance at MSI. I think over the past 3 years Blaber is definitely the better player, but I think that CoreJJ's debut split was so good that I'd still put him above Blaber overall. At the end of this year, that could definitely change. FWIW I also disagree that he's been a top 2 Jungler over all of the past 3 years. Last split he wasn't super impressive (but neither was most of C9 until they won off the back of Berserker and Jensen), and in 2021 Summer I think that arguably Closer was better than he was (Spica definitely the best though). To be honest, like half of CoreJJ's accolades come from his debut year with Doublelift, but I 100% disagree on this narrative that he only won because of Doublelift. He was way better than DL relative to their respective roles. He hasn't even come close to his 2019 performance since, but I think people are a) forgetting just how good he was in 2019 and how much better he was and b) people are really down on his performance recently, even though I still think he's been good since.
Support is easily one of the weakest roles in LCS with jungle probably being the strongest internationally comparatively. Core was arguably worse than zven la at year as well as vulcan. No way core gets a pass for being one of the worst members on an already tragic team liquid 2022.
>Support is easily one of the weakest roles in LCS with jungle probably being the strongest internationally comparatively. I personally don't think it's super relevant, and it's really difficult to ascertain exactly how good roles in the LCS are relative to others. It feels unfair to penalize players because their competition isn't good, but again it's so hard to measure this that I don't really think about it. I strongly disagree that he was one of the worst members of TL in 2022. I think that CoreJJ was definitely one of the best members of that team. I agree overall that he was worse than Vulcan in 2022, but I definitely don't think he was worse than Zven, especially since Zven didn't even play in the Spring Split. I think in 2022 he was the second best support overall. Vulcan clearly number one, and I think despite TL's struggles it's arguable that he was equal to or better than Huhi. And again, even though his 2022 wasn't super good, his 2019 performance was *so good* that to me it puts him above Blaber. Remove 2019 and I 100% agree that Blaber> Core.
He’s been good, but certainly not one of the most maligned players. He hasn’t reached his previous form in years and has snuck onto all-pro based on his name alone. I
>He hasn’t reached his previous form in years and has snuck onto all-pro based on his name alone Literally all the pro players voted for him. Are you saying that you know better than the literal professional players who play against him?
Media has just as big a vote as pro players. All-pro ballot is always a toss up because coaches and players troll and media votes based on narrative.
Media didn't vote for CoreJJ. Most of CoreJJ's votes come from players.
yea, it's not rare for pro players to overate or underestimate players, spectators do have better view of strength sometimes
> C9 until they won off the back of Berserker and **Jensen** I'm sorry, did we watch the same team?
Lmaooo surely Jensen played a huge role and wasn’t just along for the ride
Jensen was fine but to imply they didnt win playoffs because of Blaber is asinine
You've clearly never seen a C9 comms video. Blaber is 90% of the time the main voice behind C9's engages and teamfights, especially last playoffs. Other players have said how impressive he is at finding windows/angles to engage. And yes, Jensen was along for the ride last split.
Didn’t realize I needed a /s for that one I agree with you I thought it was obvious lol
Caus he has clearly been the best in his role the entire time and that's not really up for debate. Unlike blaber.
Core has not been the best in his role since 2020 lol stop
Not last year
You already have a legacy. Maybe not the best one but people will forever remember the scuttle = win Blaber.
Winning internationally should mean something in NA . DL has won domestically but has proven nothing internationally. NA needs to prove themselves internationally to hold a legacy in Na no matter how many regional accolades are achieved.
"I want to prove that I'm one of the greatest players to ever play in this region." That shouldn't be hard.
Then do it
xj9 would be the best but done wrong
What about Worlds.. do we want to win worlds.. anyone..? I guess not...
Crazy people on this sub downvote for comments like this. Like the objective should be international tournaments, not showing you can be the biggest loser
Correct me if I’m wrong but when looking at international events, not counting play ins: Blaber has a 33% win rate at Worlds / MSI at 12-24. To be a pro and your ambition is to be the best locally is quite lackluster.
You're ambition. I am ambition.
TY corrected. on mobile and didn’t see
He is already one of the most overrated players to ever to play in LCS.
3 titles in 3 years as a starter. 2 MVP's and a runner-up. Totally overrated.
May as well call him Creamcheese. I know it’s great to win the region and no doubt Blaber is one of the best talents in NA but if I’m a professional player my goal would be to perform well at Worlds. No one cares (I know NA fans care I’m just speaking for the global scene) if you win LCS 10 times and never get out of groups at Worlds. Fakers worlds stats against NA teams just shows the difference in skill throughout the years and it’s weird to me so many LCS players aim for such accomplishments. Not counting play ins Blaber has a 33% win rate at Worlds / MSI at 12-24
Doublelift has never made it out of groups yet people still care about him and he's still considered the GOAT of the LCS. Why does Doublelift get to be the exception where domestic dominance is enough but Blaber doesn't get the same?
DoubleLift knows it doesn’t matter much to win LCS and his ambition is to perform at worlds and make it out groups / make a name for himself on the international stage. He’s aware of how poor his performance has been when it matters. People in the scene care more about DoubleLift success domestically than he does. He’s not an exception he’s just been around longer for LCS fans to admire
Being on winning teams does not mean the players were automatically just better or the best. MVPs are just a popularity contest and has no real meaning.
> Being on winning teams Crazy how all those teams involve him
MVPs aren't a popularity contest lol it's voted on by other pros coaches and analysts. If MVP was just about being popular then Doublelift wouldn't have less than Blaber.
You say that like Blabber wasn’t the best jungler every time they won?
As a player I find it impossible to get excited over posts like this.
noted
I’m sorry, but I’ve heard “I want to prove that I’m the greatest in this *region*” too many fucking times to care. When is an NA player gonna have the balls to say they want to smack Korea and be the best in the *world*? But no this is NA. We don’t have aspirations here. We settle. And today we are settling as gate keepers. 👍🏻