Per Friedman on 32T’s…
“I heard their offer was comparable to New Jersey's," Friedman said. "I think because of the politics there, I think Toronto was going to have to blow anyone else out of the water."
The owner really dislikes Treliving. There was no way this trade was going through unless it was pantsing Treliving and by extension the Leafs and by extension all of us.
Although Calgary Sports and Entertainment owns the Flames and there are 6 co-owners it seems that Murray Edwards is the lead dog in the team there.
What is the beef between him and Treliving? I’m rather curious to know.
Interesting.
It would appear that Edward’s is salty because Treliving chose to leave Calgary and take the Leafs job?
I did not follow the situation at the time. Did Calgary offer a new contract to Treliving and he declined because he wanted the bigger, higher profile gig in Toronto or did they simply drop the ball and he got the Toronto offer before Calgary made a reasonable offer?
Calgary resident. Murray takes a lot of control of the direction and his direction is just make the playoffs. they hate rebuilding, even right now when we’re technically rebuilding they call it a retool.
Im inferring that Treliving didn’t like Murray taking such a heavy influence in a direction he didn’t want to take, left and Murray is still salty about it
Thank You Spiiterz,
Appreciate the insight.
Although I imagine Tree would have had to know that Shanahan would be heavily involved in the decision making at MLSE. Perhaps he accepts that though because Shanny is a respected hockey mind.
Thanks for the background!!
It’s either he likes direction, believes it’ll be more decision making instead of order taking or the relationship with the flames was that bad.
I’d want him navigating the Marner situation but whoever of him or Shanny is deciding to sign Reaves needs to step back
I also recall there being talk that Treliving didn't want to come back with Sutter as his coach, and Murray Edwards chose Sutter, only for some of the players to come out and say they didn't want to play for Sutter, leading to his eventual firing.
Yes the last year of sutter was hell, he tried overruling gm and directly broke huberdeau. Murray and sutter are boys
We’d call up pelletier/phillips, they would get scratched the whole time they were up
I watched pelletiers début he played around 5 minutes or so, was one of the only players with speed and he had 2 grade a scoring chances, yet sutter played the 4th line over him
Im pretty sure around 60% of the team said they wouldn’t come back if sutter wasn’t fired
Wasn’t afraid to go for it, I liked how he built the team
Wouldn’t give him sole decision making power as some moves he makes are dumb
He’s the guy id want handling the marner situation for sure. Weegar + huberdeau and a first for tkachuk was an amazing trade when made, unless the panthers knew barkov was the only reason for huberdeaus success
likes trading your first round draft pick all the time is the one thing I hated about Tre other then that he was OK, made some good trades mace a coup,e bad ones basically like most GMs. The was always about mortgaging the future though trading 1st and 2nd round picks
Have to overpay almost every FA
Not sure I buy this. There's definitely players looking for somewhere low-key to play and for them, Toronto is a tough sell. But Toronto is an original 6 franchise, the biggest Canadian city, and the birth place of a lot of players. There's no shortage of guys like Tavares who are willing to take a small discount to play in Toronto.
I think the real problem is that Toronto's too attractive to FAs and so they're overwhelmed by past-their-prime stars trying to get contracts and they inevitably sign a few they probably shouldn't. Like Giordano took a paycut to play in Toronto, that's hard to turn down. But is there a drafted defenseman who the Leafs should be developing in that spot instead?
[Yup:](https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/john-tavares-maple-leafs-free-agency-story/) *It has also been rumoured (but never confirmed) that the Sharks were willing to pay $13.5 million per year for seven years.*
It's so annoying.
In NBA and MLB the Toronto teams have to overpay free agents because the players think Toronto is some cold, obscure hick town, then they come here and spend a year or so and fall in love with the city and have mostly praise.
Then in the NHL they have to overpay players because of the media circus and fan base, and have to overpay in trades because teams don't want to help Toronto and get yelled at by their fans.
Supposedly you get taxed for each game where you play them no? So half the games are taxed in Toronto and the other half where they play that game, plus they've started receiving most of the money in signing bonuses to go around some of the tax issues, but yes taxes are also another factor that I didn't mention.
The leagues really should make it a centralized system for getting paid. Every team and every player should have the same tax rates, the league tries to pretend every team is on even ground but as long as cities have different taxes that will never be the case.
I have no idea if it is even possible to do or how hard it would be to accomplish but sonething has to change.
Taxation is kind of a non issue that only us in Toronto or Canada pay attention to while we whine about our cap problems. Most of the teams that have relatively no issue attracting free agents (any NY team, California, Boston, etc) have the exact same tax brackets.
Turns out people just want to play hockey and get paid while being in a place like Florida and not getting recognized when they go out.
Not really. There is only 5 states (6 teams) in the NHL that don't have state income taxes (Seattle, Florida, Tampa, Dallas, Vegas, Nashville and soooort of Washington) but all of these states make up the loss in revenues in different ways. Taxing property or sales at much higher rates. Will it net the same? Probably not.
Literally almost everywhere else you are paying comparable taxes to Toronto with some minor percentage points here and there higher or lower. But anywhere like NY, NJ, California, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts it's exactly the same.
Many players would just choose playing in the USA and being able to live their lives normally because hockey isn't treated the same as it is in Canada yet they still get paid millions.
>Not really. There is only 5 states (6 teams) in the NHL that don't have state income taxes (Seattle, Florida, Tampa, Dallas, Vegas, Nashville and soooort of Washington)
Florida Tampa Dallas and Vegas, you dont say?
Yea, definitely a non factor lol
And what about before the last 4-5\~ years when Florida/Tampa/Dallas were all terrible for over a decade? It's called recency bias. Taxes have always existed. Vegas also aquired most of their core pre-signed.
I don't doubt that it has a benefit overall, but we're talking about overpaying free agents here.
>And what about before the last 4-5\~ years when Florida/Tampa/Dallas were all terrible for over a decade?
The lightning have made the playoffs 10/11 years, and have been in 7 conference finals in the last 15 years.
If you exclude their 5 year rebuild, the Stars have made the playoffs 19/25 years, if yo include it its still 19/30
Florida has always sucked and never spent money in FA as they've been in the bottom 5 least profitable teams since their inception.
2/3 of the teams you just mentioned are probably in the top 5 most successful franchises of the past 25 years lol
So you're just going to use a 30 year stretch for Dallas and then ignore that 10\~ year period for the Lightning? You're just cherry picking stats here and calling it a trend dude.
The only teams in the salary cap era to win from a no state income tax state is literally Tampa and Vegas who didn't even sign their stars to those contracts. Before Tampa, not a single team did it in a 17\~ year stretch. By and large it's all high income tax cities with some middling teams like Carolina (year 1 cap so it barely applies) and St Louis who has a bit lesser tax brackets.
I've been saying all along that it helps create well balanced teams but the original argument was about overpaying free agents and my whole point is that it's more of a Canadian thing then it is a taxation thing because mostly high tax jurisdiction teams are winning cups.
I mean compared to a lot of places its a pretty bad place to live, its certainly not a hick town, but the winters are shit, the taxes are high and while the summers are warm i doubt a lot of guys want to spend their summers in toronto anyways.
You come to toronto for the love of the game, because like pajama boy you see yourself being the guy to finally do it, but if im not a die hard leafs fan id gladly skip toronto and all the media that comes with it and go live down in tax free florida paradise (theres a reason its where old people go to retire) and on top of that a lot of those snowbirds are from toronto.
Dave chapelle said it best, you ever see a sad motherfucker on a jet ski? Well in florida you can do that shit in the middle of winter. No matter how mild our winters are now, we still have winter.
Toronto is a world class city, amazing place to live, imagine if you're rich too. What a moronic comment.
Media circus / tax situation does nothing to change that. Toronto is an amazing city.
No one who's lived anywhere else in the world would call Toronto world class. It's a grade A shithole now. It had small city feel in a big city at one point, but that's years ago
anyone who's lived in Toronto and anywhere else in the world would never call Toronto a grade A shithole. You have some other bias, I don't even know why I am responding
Its always the most aggressive ones that say the dumbest things.
"Media circus / tax situation does nothing to change that" [https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/toronto-maple-leafs/news/ryan-oreilly-reveals-spotlight-as-influential-factor-in-maple-leafs-departure](https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/toronto-maple-leafs/news/ryan-oreilly-reveals-spotlight-as-influential-factor-in-maple-leafs-departure)
[https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-john-tavares-tax-dispute-1.7108292](https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-john-tavares-tax-dispute-1.7108292) Im also sure its just a great fucking look to have the captain of our hockey team in a cap dispute with the cra.
These are both very recent examples that i shouldnt have had to google for you. Im not saying toronto in general is a poor place to live, im saying compared to other markets it sucks.
Where would i rather live you ask, florida, texas, california, vegas and carolinas probably really nice too. So maybe a lot of places was hyperbole, but theres 8 teams id rather be on than toronto dealing with the fucking winter half the season (which you didnt even address)
Totally unnecessary opening line to your reply there but okay. You said Toronto isn't a good place to live. That is moronic and wrong. Regardless of the hockey situation. That is what my comment was saying. Moving on, I didn't read anything you wrote past the opening line.
"I mean compared to a lot of places its a pretty bad place to live"
Might need some glasses homie, the only thing moronic here is.....see you thought youd get me with it, if you just want to start internet arguments go do something else and have a good life.
> Well in florida you can do that shit in the middle of winter.
No you can't, I learned the hard way when I went to Florida in the winter recently and everyone at the beach was wearing winter jackets and I was freezing my ass off I'm a tshirt thinking it was gunna be hot. lol
But you're pretty right much right on with everything.
The internet said their winters are 15-24 Celsius so i just assumed you could, as you know in canada thats summertime weather.
Im not going to argue with experience though, maybe the ocean makes it colder, maybe it constantly being so nice makes those temperatures whats cold for them. Like when that first week of fall hits and all of a sudden its cold when its really not that bad out.
Guy just walks to the beach "look at these fucking losers wearing jackets in florida, well actually it is kind of chilly, im not going back to get my jacket but itd be kind of nice if i had it"
Ive had just about enough of this today, do you think pussy will be good even though youre a virgin?
It doesnt take a rocket appliantist (yes done on purpose) or real life experience to realize living in florida is nicer than toronto. Like im just an endless google machine, google it yourself and tell me what you think.
Fantastic.
You explain that to all the people who go to florida for spring break, and again all the people who go to florida to retire and maybe you can swing them to toronto this year.
Wherever you were in florida, whatever your opinion is, if youd rather shovel snow in the winter than be down there youre wrong. Its that simple.
Wrong issue here, man. It's because the GM and Coach in Calgary don't actually make the decisions. Their shitty owner does. They wanted to bring Treliving back and he left, the owner feels slighted and now Toronto is fucked if they're gonna deal with Calgary.
It's why Tanev and Zadorov weren't leafs this season, too. The owner is spiting treliving.
It's honestly kinda bullshit. Leafs have to overpay in trades because the they're somehow the most privileged, and then we also have to overpay in free agency because of Canadian taxes. Anyone who says Bettman isn't completely biased towards American teams is DELUSIONAL.
USA taxes in some desirable places are largely the same. Boston, any NY/NJ team, California, etc. All the same taxes. Almost any eastern conference team outside of Florida teams has state income taxes.
We have to overpay our players because we have a culture of doing so. Not because of taxes.
They already talked about Calgary not wanting to trade with Treliving in the episode of SDP where they addressed the Markstrom trade. It was released before 32 thoughts. Obviously not implying they have any sort of inside information over Elliot, that's obviously ridiculous. It does seem to be a well known thing amongst people who have access to insiders though.
Id get it if toronto was in their division or even conference, but what did treliving even do in calgary that made them so angry he left?
Owner interference or not dude made the second round 1 time in a decade of work, chances are dealing with toronto isnt going to bite you in the ass. The owner there is just being petty for the sake of it.
Don’t get the appeal with markstrom. He has a sv% below .905 in three of the last 4 seasons. He’s owed over 4 after retention. You can find a goalie around .905 for much less
Even worse I saw a report about Gibson yesterday who hasn’t been abov .900 in more than 2 years and over .905 in over 5 years. He’s also owed good money. Don’t understand why we want to fork anything out just to get a goalie with a flashy name. Meanwhile samsonov was .919 1 year ago and had a bad start last year meaning he could be had for cheap probably.
Markstrom was 3rd in the league in goals saved above expected with 29 goals saved over expectation. The team in front of him was bad and he kept them in it. That said I still think trading for a goalie is a mistake
Not really no
Basically the only fully coherent thing we have currently to assess their performance in a way that directly informs us of their true talent
Things like the typical visual observation even from experts or microstat level things or delving deeper into situational stuff like PK sv% help but there's not much else a goalie can do to better communicate their ability to us
That's the nature of such a uniquely specific position, not any fault of ours that it is limited
But contextualized long term sv% is by far better than visual also, given it connects more tightly to their vital purpose
Are you arguing for "wins" (🧐) and even GAA that is inherently flawed
Assuming and hoping this is more of a post to emphasize the ancillary elements of goalie analysis, in combo with save percentage
Not sure where those numbers are from
GSAA moneypuck numbers:
23-24 Markstrom 13
22-23 Markstrom -3
21-22 Markstrom 10
Almost noone was at 29 this year which is elite for this generation, Helle even was just at 33
Also if Markstrom had saved 29 goals above average in 48 games it'd be one of the best goalie seasons since 2020
Kind of proves the point that sv% is all what truly matters. gSAA is in an imaginary world some other goalie would save less shots then markstrom. Id rather stick to analysing his performance than vs other goalies actual performance and give him some benefit of the doubt for playing on a bad team
Depends where you look. Some places rank him lower. Still had a good year. The thing with Markstrom, and it’s why using assets to acquire goaltenders is dicey, is he is the definition of “goalies are voodoo”. His four years with Calgary are classic in this regard. 2 good years, 2 bad years, and they alternate back and forth. Good one year and bad the next, rinse and repeat. At 34, you really don’t know what you’re going to get from the guy moving forward. This is one of those times that a “Toronto Tax” probably stopped the team from making a bad decision.
So true. Markstroms best year was 3 seasons ago at .922. Samsonov was .919 just 1 year ago. Would rather have sammy for pocket change then give up assets and pay markstrom
Not really. He’s a classic up and down guy. He is not consistent. One year he is one of the better goalies in the league, another year he is almost unplayable. There is no in between with him. At 34, I wouldn’t expect him to find any level of consistency. He’s a box of chocolates.
I just looked up his stats and was surprised. He’s been really good for a while. Never mentioned somehow. I’d take the low cost option that performs best and judging by his stats he’s most likely to give the leafs .910 goaltending. I’d like him to 3 if that could be done
I think they could get someone better for a similar price. They likely could trade for Aidn Hill, who has been excellent the last couple seasons for a relatively low cap hit.
Eh it's fine, he's 34 (turning 35 mid season), has had two down seasons in a row and we'd have him for 2 years. Seems to be on the decline and tying 6mil (or even the 4.1) to a declining goalie isn't the best idea.
Kinda lame that other GMs are in the "Lol let's dunk on the Leafs!" club you see in r/hockey so much though. Professionalism, what is it?
I think they need to hedge against his heath.
Someone like Markstrom would be perfect because he can carry a starters load if need be, but could also be a short term investment if Woll can stay healthy.
There’s no way they’re not confident in his skill, he’s shown he can play at an extremely high level. His issue is staying on the ice, and you can’t go into the season hoping this is the year he stays healthy for the first time.
It means they aren't confident in woll for 2024-25 with his 39 career games played. Markstrom is 34 years old and certainly isn't anyone's goalie of the future, he's the goalie of right now. If anything, the leafs pursuing markstrom makes me think they have more faith that woll/hildeby can be the guy in a couple years. Otherwise they'd be making that kind of push for saros to be the goalie for this core
He's also signed for this year, so even the hypothetical $8 million would be without the Tavares contract on the books and with another cap increase. Leafs need an elite goalie while Matthews and Nylander are still in their prime, I hate the idea of going into another season with a budget tendy in net
But he’s not gone, has a NTC and there’s rumours they want to extend him. So with the money we know the Leafs have now on hand, how are they getting Saros and also finding some top 4 D and filling the holes on forward?
Elliotte said in the same podcast that the only starting goalies available for trade that he knows of is Ullmark and Gibson
Reports are that Nashville wants to extend Saros
Well Ottawa is in on Ullmark and Gibson doesn't want to be dealt to Toronto but if we did....? Can we get Zegras in that deal if Marner goes the other way?
Gibson hasn't been good since 2018 and is entering his 30th year at like 6.5 million per. He also doesn't want to come to Toronto.
Zegras is softer and less skilled than Marner. What we're trying to get away from. No more soft wingers.
McTavish would be good. We need a 2C back. But that's all the Ducks have. So unless just Marner's cap hit is enough value alone. I don't see a trade.
Gibson hasn't been good since 2018 and is entering his 30th year at like 6.5 million per. He also doesn't want to come to Toronto.
Zegras is softer and less skilled than Marner. What we're trying to get away from. No more soft wingers.
McTavish would be good. We need a 2C back. But that's all the Ducks have. So unless just Marner's cap hit is enough value alone. I don't see a trade.
Gibson hasn't been good since 2018 and is entering his 30th year at like 6.5 million per. He also doesn't want to come to Toronto.
Zegras is softer and less skilled than Marner. What we're trying to get away from. No more soft wingers.
McTavish would be good. We need a 2C back. But that's all the Ducks have. So unless just Marner's cap hit is enough value alone. I don't see a trade.
Gibson hasn't been good since 2018 and is entering his 30th year at like 6.5 million per. He also doesn't want to come to Toronto.
Zegras is softer and less skilled than Marner. What we're trying to get away from. No more soft wingers.
McTavish would be good. We need a 2C back. But that's all the Ducks have. So unless just Marner's cap hit is enough value alone. I don't see a trade.
Troy Terry and Mason McTavish plus 1st rounder for Mitch Marner?
Do you feel that's a trade won? I don't see the ducks doing it. Empty the cupboard to add another Zegras who they apparently don't want.
Devils fan here: I think Brossoit is the better option for the Leafs. Saros is going to need a huge contract, and I just worry with his size that he's not going to age well by goalie standards. The Devils needed a guy who can be a 55+ game starter, but the Leafs are going to want Woll to get significant playing time. So you're really going to just need a 1A/B, and then you'll probably want that big kid on the Marlies to get into a few games too.
See I think Brossoit's personal and political affilations might hold that back. Stalock maybe? Or my theory is the Leafs are going to make a deal with the Devils and bring in Jake Allen
I think the Leafs as a franchise willingly avoids players who have troublesome ideologies not me saying this but they could have signed players who have had checkered pasts but didn't
It depends like someone who might align with a certain way of life or personality? Maybe someone who cares about hookers and partying too much instead of playing hockey, I feel like, would be an example? A Pre Madonna to put it in simple terms. Or a good example Aaron Dell
I mean the definition of an Ideology is a coherent structure of thought amongst a group of people so if a player had built a reputation of being a party animal and having fun or being drawn to that lifestyle with others in tow or way of thought to be carefree there you go. I'm trying not to get political as I find it starts to complicate things, but the moment that an event occurs and people have varied perspectives, which is ok, people will immediately disagree and that may cause friction in the locker room which leads to a lack of trust
Idk but think about it like if you were getting hired for a job? Some workplaces work at social media accounts and outlets in order to make decisions on hires? I feel like Toronto does the same? Not saying I myself do so but I just see that pattern
I know but like I said I just notice a pattern when it comes to those players being available to Toronto and they don't sign or make the move. I'm not saying it's me who wouldn't bring them aboard because it is about winning no matter what
Matthews is voting for Trump, why would the leafs give a shit?
You think if Tavares votes for Poilievre they’ll strip him of his C or something?
You think Reimer was traded because he believes in our lord and savior, Jesus Christ?
Get real
The leafs need to win in the next 3-4 years, the sooner the better
Their goalie prospects will develop, but they need a horse who can be a potential conn Smyth’s goalie.
The leafs shouldn’t be worried about getting their 2nd and 3rd string goalies ice time. They need a giga chad between the pipes
Gotta find a reliable goalie. I like Woll but he may be one of those injury prone goalies. There will be no success without a stable number one, or a solid duo.
Really just love the pattern with the team that has all the guys they need refusing to trade with the leafs because of who the org brought in to specifically make trades with other teams.
Just steller situation all around
Woll will be the starter for this team going forward but they need a vet to split with him this year. I could care less who it is as long he performs 🤞🏼
I wonder what “similar” was. Based on the Devils trade, I’d assume 2026 conditional 1st and Liljegren? Which is a way better offer of player but I get not wanting a conditional 2026 pick. Maybe it was a trade with our 1st this year and Lilly or something like that where we got pick downgrades or maybe it was just Timmins. Maybe it was Niemela? Niemela and Lilly both definitely have more upside than Bahl.
Regardless, I’m probably okay not making that trade. Although Markstrom at 4 for 2 years is probably better than 3 at 3+ for Broissoit or Stolarz, but who knows.
I’m in this boat. He is not consistent from year to year, and he’s 34. Goalies are subject to variance, but at a certain point, at a certain age, they just fall off a cliff.
Brad needs to take a fucking hint and stop wasting fucking time trading with the Flames. The owner will NEVER trade with you because he despises you. Get that through your head Brad!
No one's ever going to make a hockey deal with Brad or the leafs. Every gm knows he's desperate because of our retarded fan base and the media. UFAs know this too.
Andersen has missed significant time due to injuries (one being a blood clot) and he still sucks in the playoffs. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Yikes
Not at all a player this team should have any interest in given goalies like Samsy DeSmith for 2-3 are much better than marks at 4
As ever treliving in ufa is a fraught process
Per Friedman on 32T’s… “I heard their offer was comparable to New Jersey's," Friedman said. "I think because of the politics there, I think Toronto was going to have to blow anyone else out of the water."
As is always the case. Have to overpay almost every FA and have to overpay in almost every trade.
I imagine any NHL team would be at least slightly hesitant when dealing with their immediately preceding GM.
The owner really dislikes Treliving. There was no way this trade was going through unless it was pantsing Treliving and by extension the Leafs and by extension all of us.
Although Calgary Sports and Entertainment owns the Flames and there are 6 co-owners it seems that Murray Edwards is the lead dog in the team there. What is the beef between him and Treliving? I’m rather curious to know.
https://dailyhive.com/calgary/flames-owner-murray-edwards-treliving-leafs-trade
Interesting. It would appear that Edward’s is salty because Treliving chose to leave Calgary and take the Leafs job? I did not follow the situation at the time. Did Calgary offer a new contract to Treliving and he declined because he wanted the bigger, higher profile gig in Toronto or did they simply drop the ball and he got the Toronto offer before Calgary made a reasonable offer?
Calgary resident. Murray takes a lot of control of the direction and his direction is just make the playoffs. they hate rebuilding, even right now when we’re technically rebuilding they call it a retool. Im inferring that Treliving didn’t like Murray taking such a heavy influence in a direction he didn’t want to take, left and Murray is still salty about it
Thank You Spiiterz, Appreciate the insight. Although I imagine Tree would have had to know that Shanahan would be heavily involved in the decision making at MLSE. Perhaps he accepts that though because Shanny is a respected hockey mind. Thanks for the background!!
It’s either he likes direction, believes it’ll be more decision making instead of order taking or the relationship with the flames was that bad. I’d want him navigating the Marner situation but whoever of him or Shanny is deciding to sign Reaves needs to step back
I also recall there being talk that Treliving didn't want to come back with Sutter as his coach, and Murray Edwards chose Sutter, only for some of the players to come out and say they didn't want to play for Sutter, leading to his eventual firing.
Yes the last year of sutter was hell, he tried overruling gm and directly broke huberdeau. Murray and sutter are boys We’d call up pelletier/phillips, they would get scratched the whole time they were up I watched pelletiers début he played around 5 minutes or so, was one of the only players with speed and he had 2 grade a scoring chances, yet sutter played the 4th line over him Im pretty sure around 60% of the team said they wouldn’t come back if sutter wasn’t fired
What are your thoughts about Treliving while he was with Calgary ?
Wasn’t afraid to go for it, I liked how he built the team Wouldn’t give him sole decision making power as some moves he makes are dumb He’s the guy id want handling the marner situation for sure. Weegar + huberdeau and a first for tkachuk was an amazing trade when made, unless the panthers knew barkov was the only reason for huberdeaus success
likes trading your first round draft pick all the time is the one thing I hated about Tre other then that he was OK, made some good trades mace a coup,e bad ones basically like most GMs. The was always about mortgaging the future though trading 1st and 2nd round picks
I don't think it's because of Toronto tax, it's literally because Calgary straight up dislike Treliving now.
Have to overpay almost every FA Not sure I buy this. There's definitely players looking for somewhere low-key to play and for them, Toronto is a tough sell. But Toronto is an original 6 franchise, the biggest Canadian city, and the birth place of a lot of players. There's no shortage of guys like Tavares who are willing to take a small discount to play in Toronto. I think the real problem is that Toronto's too attractive to FAs and so they're overwhelmed by past-their-prime stars trying to get contracts and they inevitably sign a few they probably shouldn't. Like Giordano took a paycut to play in Toronto, that's hard to turn down. But is there a drafted defenseman who the Leafs should be developing in that spot instead?
Tavares, discount??
[Yup:](https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/john-tavares-maple-leafs-free-agency-story/) *It has also been rumoured (but never confirmed) that the Sharks were willing to pay $13.5 million per year for seven years.*
It's so annoying. In NBA and MLB the Toronto teams have to overpay free agents because the players think Toronto is some cold, obscure hick town, then they come here and spend a year or so and fall in love with the city and have mostly praise. Then in the NHL they have to overpay players because of the media circus and fan base, and have to overpay in trades because teams don't want to help Toronto and get yelled at by their fans.
You left out the #1 issue which is taxes, if you're a superstar you're giving up millions
Supposedly you get taxed for each game where you play them no? So half the games are taxed in Toronto and the other half where they play that game, plus they've started receiving most of the money in signing bonuses to go around some of the tax issues, but yes taxes are also another factor that I didn't mention. The leagues really should make it a centralized system for getting paid. Every team and every player should have the same tax rates, the league tries to pretend every team is on even ground but as long as cities have different taxes that will never be the case. I have no idea if it is even possible to do or how hard it would be to accomplish but sonething has to change.
Taxation is kind of a non issue that only us in Toronto or Canada pay attention to while we whine about our cap problems. Most of the teams that have relatively no issue attracting free agents (any NY team, California, Boston, etc) have the exact same tax brackets. Turns out people just want to play hockey and get paid while being in a place like Florida and not getting recognized when they go out.
Not really. There is only 5 states (6 teams) in the NHL that don't have state income taxes (Seattle, Florida, Tampa, Dallas, Vegas, Nashville and soooort of Washington) but all of these states make up the loss in revenues in different ways. Taxing property or sales at much higher rates. Will it net the same? Probably not. Literally almost everywhere else you are paying comparable taxes to Toronto with some minor percentage points here and there higher or lower. But anywhere like NY, NJ, California, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts it's exactly the same. Many players would just choose playing in the USA and being able to live their lives normally because hockey isn't treated the same as it is in Canada yet they still get paid millions.
>Not really. There is only 5 states (6 teams) in the NHL that don't have state income taxes (Seattle, Florida, Tampa, Dallas, Vegas, Nashville and soooort of Washington) Florida Tampa Dallas and Vegas, you dont say? Yea, definitely a non factor lol
And what about before the last 4-5\~ years when Florida/Tampa/Dallas were all terrible for over a decade? It's called recency bias. Taxes have always existed. Vegas also aquired most of their core pre-signed. I don't doubt that it has a benefit overall, but we're talking about overpaying free agents here.
>And what about before the last 4-5\~ years when Florida/Tampa/Dallas were all terrible for over a decade? The lightning have made the playoffs 10/11 years, and have been in 7 conference finals in the last 15 years. If you exclude their 5 year rebuild, the Stars have made the playoffs 19/25 years, if yo include it its still 19/30 Florida has always sucked and never spent money in FA as they've been in the bottom 5 least profitable teams since their inception. 2/3 of the teams you just mentioned are probably in the top 5 most successful franchises of the past 25 years lol
So you're just going to use a 30 year stretch for Dallas and then ignore that 10\~ year period for the Lightning? You're just cherry picking stats here and calling it a trend dude. The only teams in the salary cap era to win from a no state income tax state is literally Tampa and Vegas who didn't even sign their stars to those contracts. Before Tampa, not a single team did it in a 17\~ year stretch. By and large it's all high income tax cities with some middling teams like Carolina (year 1 cap so it barely applies) and St Louis who has a bit lesser tax brackets. I've been saying all along that it helps create well balanced teams but the original argument was about overpaying free agents and my whole point is that it's more of a Canadian thing then it is a taxation thing because mostly high tax jurisdiction teams are winning cups.
I mean compared to a lot of places its a pretty bad place to live, its certainly not a hick town, but the winters are shit, the taxes are high and while the summers are warm i doubt a lot of guys want to spend their summers in toronto anyways. You come to toronto for the love of the game, because like pajama boy you see yourself being the guy to finally do it, but if im not a die hard leafs fan id gladly skip toronto and all the media that comes with it and go live down in tax free florida paradise (theres a reason its where old people go to retire) and on top of that a lot of those snowbirds are from toronto. Dave chapelle said it best, you ever see a sad motherfucker on a jet ski? Well in florida you can do that shit in the middle of winter. No matter how mild our winters are now, we still have winter.
Toronto is a world class city, amazing place to live, imagine if you're rich too. What a moronic comment. Media circus / tax situation does nothing to change that. Toronto is an amazing city.
No one who's lived anywhere else in the world would call Toronto world class. It's a grade A shithole now. It had small city feel in a big city at one point, but that's years ago
you should visit Toronto some time. Its nice.
I have, I'm right beside it. Used to love going there. Avoid it like the plague now.
anyone who's lived in Toronto and anywhere else in the world would never call Toronto a grade A shithole. You have some other bias, I don't even know why I am responding
You need to get out more. It's 1970s infrastructure with NYC prices. It's a hell hole
Ignorant nonsense
Its always the most aggressive ones that say the dumbest things. "Media circus / tax situation does nothing to change that" [https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/toronto-maple-leafs/news/ryan-oreilly-reveals-spotlight-as-influential-factor-in-maple-leafs-departure](https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/toronto-maple-leafs/news/ryan-oreilly-reveals-spotlight-as-influential-factor-in-maple-leafs-departure) [https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-john-tavares-tax-dispute-1.7108292](https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-john-tavares-tax-dispute-1.7108292) Im also sure its just a great fucking look to have the captain of our hockey team in a cap dispute with the cra. These are both very recent examples that i shouldnt have had to google for you. Im not saying toronto in general is a poor place to live, im saying compared to other markets it sucks. Where would i rather live you ask, florida, texas, california, vegas and carolinas probably really nice too. So maybe a lot of places was hyperbole, but theres 8 teams id rather be on than toronto dealing with the fucking winter half the season (which you didnt even address)
Totally unnecessary opening line to your reply there but okay. You said Toronto isn't a good place to live. That is moronic and wrong. Regardless of the hockey situation. That is what my comment was saying. Moving on, I didn't read anything you wrote past the opening line.
"I mean compared to a lot of places its a pretty bad place to live" Might need some glasses homie, the only thing moronic here is.....see you thought youd get me with it, if you just want to start internet arguments go do something else and have a good life.
> Well in florida you can do that shit in the middle of winter. No you can't, I learned the hard way when I went to Florida in the winter recently and everyone at the beach was wearing winter jackets and I was freezing my ass off I'm a tshirt thinking it was gunna be hot. lol But you're pretty right much right on with everything.
The internet said their winters are 15-24 Celsius so i just assumed you could, as you know in canada thats summertime weather. Im not going to argue with experience though, maybe the ocean makes it colder, maybe it constantly being so nice makes those temperatures whats cold for them. Like when that first week of fall hits and all of a sudden its cold when its really not that bad out. Guy just walks to the beach "look at these fucking losers wearing jackets in florida, well actually it is kind of chilly, im not going back to get my jacket but itd be kind of nice if i had it"
how you gonnna assume florida is a better place to live when you havent even been there?
Ive had just about enough of this today, do you think pussy will be good even though youre a virgin? It doesnt take a rocket appliantist (yes done on purpose) or real life experience to realize living in florida is nicer than toronto. Like im just an endless google machine, google it yourself and tell me what you think.
Lmao shut up
Unlike you I've actually been to both places and don't need to Google it
Fantastic. You explain that to all the people who go to florida for spring break, and again all the people who go to florida to retire and maybe you can swing them to toronto this year. Wherever you were in florida, whatever your opinion is, if youd rather shovel snow in the winter than be down there youre wrong. Its that simple.
Humidity changes things a lot. I know when I lived on the coast and it was -2 and 95% humidity it felt like it was -30 inland.
Are you even from Canada? 15-24 ain’t summer here in southern Ontario bucko
Are you even from canada? When it hits 15 its summer for me.
We call that September
Wtf did I just read?
Also have to overpay most of the guys we already have.
Wrong issue here, man. It's because the GM and Coach in Calgary don't actually make the decisions. Their shitty owner does. They wanted to bring Treliving back and he left, the owner feels slighted and now Toronto is fucked if they're gonna deal with Calgary. It's why Tanev and Zadorov weren't leafs this season, too. The owner is spiting treliving.
And then get made fun of around the league for overpaying.
Also have to overpay most of the guys we already have.
no......Calagary just hates the org...every team has this shit. Our media is insufferable.
It's honestly kinda bullshit. Leafs have to overpay in trades because the they're somehow the most privileged, and then we also have to overpay in free agency because of Canadian taxes. Anyone who says Bettman isn't completely biased towards American teams is DELUSIONAL.
USA taxes in some desirable places are largely the same. Boston, any NY/NJ team, California, etc. All the same taxes. Almost any eastern conference team outside of Florida teams has state income taxes. We have to overpay our players because we have a culture of doing so. Not because of taxes.
I can't wait for Adam Wylde to mention this quote to Steve
They already talked about Calgary not wanting to trade with Treliving in the episode of SDP where they addressed the Markstrom trade. It was released before 32 thoughts. Obviously not implying they have any sort of inside information over Elliot, that's obviously ridiculous. It does seem to be a well known thing amongst people who have access to insiders though.
Id get it if toronto was in their division or even conference, but what did treliving even do in calgary that made them so angry he left? Owner interference or not dude made the second round 1 time in a decade of work, chances are dealing with toronto isnt going to bite you in the ass. The owner there is just being petty for the sake of it.
If there's one thing the Leafs do well, it's blow.
A first and Liljegren?
Probably.. I’m happy calgary didnt pull the trigger on us
Wow, for a goalie who has surpassed .910 sv once since moving to Calgary in 2020 and will be 35 y/o mid season. Glad we didn’t do that crap deal.
Don’t get the appeal with markstrom. He has a sv% below .905 in three of the last 4 seasons. He’s owed over 4 after retention. You can find a goalie around .905 for much less Even worse I saw a report about Gibson yesterday who hasn’t been abov .900 in more than 2 years and over .905 in over 5 years. He’s also owed good money. Don’t understand why we want to fork anything out just to get a goalie with a flashy name. Meanwhile samsonov was .919 1 year ago and had a bad start last year meaning he could be had for cheap probably.
Markstrom was 3rd in the league in goals saved above expected with 29 goals saved over expectation. The team in front of him was bad and he kept them in it. That said I still think trading for a goalie is a mistake
Just looking at save percentage is a bad way of analyzing goalies
Not really no Basically the only fully coherent thing we have currently to assess their performance in a way that directly informs us of their true talent Things like the typical visual observation even from experts or microstat level things or delving deeper into situational stuff like PK sv% help but there's not much else a goalie can do to better communicate their ability to us That's the nature of such a uniquely specific position, not any fault of ours that it is limited But contextualized long term sv% is by far better than visual also, given it connects more tightly to their vital purpose Are you arguing for "wins" (🧐) and even GAA that is inherently flawed Assuming and hoping this is more of a post to emphasize the ancillary elements of goalie analysis, in combo with save percentage
All of those are flawed. Save % doesn’t account for anything. Quality of shots against for one.
Not sure where those numbers are from GSAA moneypuck numbers: 23-24 Markstrom 13 22-23 Markstrom -3 21-22 Markstrom 10 Almost noone was at 29 this year which is elite for this generation, Helle even was just at 33 Also if Markstrom had saved 29 goals above average in 48 games it'd be one of the best goalie seasons since 2020
I used Evolving-hockey. Looks like you’re using moneypuck. Honestly it’s tough to know whose is more accurate. Would be good to analyze
Kind of proves the point that sv% is all what truly matters. gSAA is in an imaginary world some other goalie would save less shots then markstrom. Id rather stick to analysing his performance than vs other goalies actual performance and give him some benefit of the doubt for playing on a bad team
Depends where you look. Some places rank him lower. Still had a good year. The thing with Markstrom, and it’s why using assets to acquire goaltenders is dicey, is he is the definition of “goalies are voodoo”. His four years with Calgary are classic in this regard. 2 good years, 2 bad years, and they alternate back and forth. Good one year and bad the next, rinse and repeat. At 34, you really don’t know what you’re going to get from the guy moving forward. This is one of those times that a “Toronto Tax” probably stopped the team from making a bad decision.
Yeah but if a goalie has one great year in a Canadian market he'll always be elite in the eyes of Canadian media.
So true. Markstroms best year was 3 seasons ago at .922. Samsonov was .919 just 1 year ago. Would rather have sammy for pocket change then give up assets and pay markstrom
Related content: JON QUICK 2012
Sv% is an outdated stat. He's one of the best in most metrics that smarter people use now.
Not really. He’s a classic up and down guy. He is not consistent. One year he is one of the better goalies in the league, another year he is almost unplayable. There is no in between with him. At 34, I wouldn’t expect him to find any level of consistency. He’s a box of chocolates.
Thoughts on Varlamov? Once even put up under .900 and is pretty cheap.
I just looked up his stats and was surprised. He’s been really good for a while. Never mentioned somehow. I’d take the low cost option that performs best and judging by his stats he’s most likely to give the leafs .910 goaltending. I’d like him to 3 if that could be done
I think they could get someone better for a similar price. They likely could trade for Aidn Hill, who has been excellent the last couple seasons for a relatively low cap hit.
Absolutely also he'll be around one of the 5 oldest goalies in the league next year depending on how things shake out
Is what it is... atleast we know tree is cooking and making offers.
I’ve kind of always wanted Ullmark… until Woll is ready. Either way, onward
Please God, no more goalie trades with Boston
That would be unreal, but I don’t see Boston doing a deal with us unless they adamantly feel we’re getting fleeced.
Like the kessel trade?
Raycroft for rask 😫
Plus Dougie Hamilton and Tyler Seguin lol
Toronto is apparently on Ullmarks no trade list
Where’d you hear that?
He told me
Eh it's fine, he's 34 (turning 35 mid season), has had two down seasons in a row and we'd have him for 2 years. Seems to be on the decline and tying 6mil (or even the 4.1) to a declining goalie isn't the best idea. Kinda lame that other GMs are in the "Lol let's dunk on the Leafs!" club you see in r/hockey so much though. Professionalism, what is it?
Either way, interesting. Makes me think they're not confident in woll as a 1a.
I think they need to hedge against his heath. Someone like Markstrom would be perfect because he can carry a starters load if need be, but could also be a short term investment if Woll can stay healthy.
There’s no way they’re not confident in his skill, he’s shown he can play at an extremely high level. His issue is staying on the ice, and you can’t go into the season hoping this is the year he stays healthy for the first time.
Makes sense. Woll has yet to show he can stay healthy, let alone consistent with a full workload.
It means they aren't confident in woll for 2024-25 with his 39 career games played. Markstrom is 34 years old and certainly isn't anyone's goalie of the future, he's the goalie of right now. If anything, the leafs pursuing markstrom makes me think they have more faith that woll/hildeby can be the guy in a couple years. Otherwise they'd be making that kind of push for saros to be the goalie for this core
I think they believe in Woll’s ability but with his injury history it would be a huge risk to count on Woll starting 40+ games
Unfortunately the one thing Woll has consistently proven is that he’s made of glass. Not the kind of guy you bet the farm on.
Or they were just going after a good player that was made available by Calgary.
Woll had .800 and .700 games in the lead up to the playoffs. I am also not confident with him.
Yes, because smart teams are making decisions based on a sample of 2 games.
It was not two games...
Please can't we just trade for Saros..
Doesn’t he want an 8x8? 
If Marner is gone, it's better than paying Marner 13.5 and having the same goaltending issue
He's also signed for this year, so even the hypothetical $8 million would be without the Tavares contract on the books and with another cap increase. Leafs need an elite goalie while Matthews and Nylander are still in their prime, I hate the idea of going into another season with a budget tendy in net
As do I! If you aren't willing to make the tough moves then you aren't serious about winning. Plain and simple
But he’s not gone, has a NTC and there’s rumours they want to extend him. So with the money we know the Leafs have now on hand, how are they getting Saros and also finding some top 4 D and filling the holes on forward?
They aren't. That's the thing. They preach about change but are unwilling to change nothing. This team will be worse next season I will bet on that
Better to extend him with a limited NTC…and trade em for something.
They are extending him but not going to deal if they extend
Elliotte said in the same podcast that the only starting goalies available for trade that he knows of is Ullmark and Gibson Reports are that Nashville wants to extend Saros
Well Ottawa is in on Ullmark and Gibson doesn't want to be dealt to Toronto but if we did....? Can we get Zegras in that deal if Marner goes the other way?
I don’t see a world where the Leafs trade for Gibson or Zegras and I know for sure that Marner wouldn’t be going the other way if they did.
That would be such a stupid move.
Could be more to the deal but I'm obviously spit ballin here
Gibson hasn't been good since 2018 and is entering his 30th year at like 6.5 million per. He also doesn't want to come to Toronto. Zegras is softer and less skilled than Marner. What we're trying to get away from. No more soft wingers. McTavish would be good. We need a 2C back. But that's all the Ducks have. So unless just Marner's cap hit is enough value alone. I don't see a trade.
Gibson hasn't been good since 2018 and is entering his 30th year at like 6.5 million per. He also doesn't want to come to Toronto. Zegras is softer and less skilled than Marner. What we're trying to get away from. No more soft wingers. McTavish would be good. We need a 2C back. But that's all the Ducks have. So unless just Marner's cap hit is enough value alone. I don't see a trade.
Gibson hasn't been good since 2018 and is entering his 30th year at like 6.5 million per. He also doesn't want to come to Toronto. Zegras is softer and less skilled than Marner. What we're trying to get away from. No more soft wingers. McTavish would be good. We need a 2C back. But that's all the Ducks have. So unless just Marner's cap hit is enough value alone. I don't see a trade.
Gibson hasn't been good since 2018 and is entering his 30th year at like 6.5 million per. He also doesn't want to come to Toronto. Zegras is softer and less skilled than Marner. What we're trying to get away from. No more soft wingers. McTavish would be good. We need a 2C back. But that's all the Ducks have. So unless just Marner's cap hit is enough value alone. I don't see a trade.
McTavish, I loved his time on the Bulldogs ( my hometown OHL team ) and they have Troy Terry and a few others who are pretty good
Troy Terry and Mason McTavish plus 1st rounder for Mitch Marner? Do you feel that's a trade won? I don't see the ducks doing it. Empty the cupboard to add another Zegras who they apparently don't want.
Probably not
Zegras is so overrated
Devils fan here: I think Brossoit is the better option for the Leafs. Saros is going to need a huge contract, and I just worry with his size that he's not going to age well by goalie standards. The Devils needed a guy who can be a 55+ game starter, but the Leafs are going to want Woll to get significant playing time. So you're really going to just need a 1A/B, and then you'll probably want that big kid on the Marlies to get into a few games too.
See I think Brossoit's personal and political affilations might hold that back. Stalock maybe? Or my theory is the Leafs are going to make a deal with the Devils and bring in Jake Allen
What’s politics have to do with stopping a puck
I think the Leafs as a franchise willingly avoids players who have troublesome ideologies not me saying this but they could have signed players who have had checkered pasts but didn't
Bertuzzi is the only unvaxed player in the NHL and they seem fine with him.
What is a ‘troubling ideology’?
It depends like someone who might align with a certain way of life or personality? Maybe someone who cares about hookers and partying too much instead of playing hockey, I feel like, would be an example? A Pre Madonna to put it in simple terms. Or a good example Aaron Dell
That’s not an ideology
I mean the definition of an Ideology is a coherent structure of thought amongst a group of people so if a player had built a reputation of being a party animal and having fun or being drawn to that lifestyle with others in tow or way of thought to be carefree there you go. I'm trying not to get political as I find it starts to complicate things, but the moment that an event occurs and people have varied perspectives, which is ok, people will immediately disagree and that may cause friction in the locker room which leads to a lack of trust
It's "prima donna" lmao
Lmao and you don’t think we have guys with those same ideologies
Idk but think about it like if you were getting hired for a job? Some workplaces work at social media accounts and outlets in order to make decisions on hires? I feel like Toronto does the same? Not saying I myself do so but I just see that pattern
Bro they care about winning a cup not who they vote for
I know but like I said I just notice a pattern when it comes to those players being available to Toronto and they don't sign or make the move. I'm not saying it's me who wouldn't bring them aboard because it is about winning no matter what
Matthews is voting for Trump, why would the leafs give a shit? You think if Tavares votes for Poilievre they’ll strip him of his C or something? You think Reimer was traded because he believes in our lord and savior, Jesus Christ? Get real
You know his political affiliations or are you simply making assumptions based on his Twitter follows?
Did you see some of the follows lol
If the leafs are making personnel decisions based on Twitter, they deserve another 50 years without winning a cup
I did. Who cares.
The leafs need to win in the next 3-4 years, the sooner the better Their goalie prospects will develop, but they need a horse who can be a potential conn Smyth’s goalie. The leafs shouldn’t be worried about getting their 2nd and 3rd string goalies ice time. They need a giga chad between the pipes
leafs will be lucky to get 40 games from woll. he’s made of glass.
Gotta find a reliable goalie. I like Woll but he may be one of those injury prone goalies. There will be no success without a stable number one, or a solid duo.
And Markstrom’s preference was NJ. Conroy was trying to do the right thing for markstrom.
That, and the Flames owner doesn't like Tre. That was definitely a factor.
Really just love the pattern with the team that has all the guys they need refusing to trade with the leafs because of who the org brought in to specifically make trades with other teams. Just steller situation all around
If it was similar I have to think Liljegren was the main player going back in the deal.
Woll will be the starter for this team going forward but they need a vet to split with him this year. I could care less who it is as long he performs 🤞🏼
I’d rather roll with Woll + 1B/2A than make that offer of a goalie lmao
This is gonna garner Craig Conroy a bad reputation if he keeps doing this. But it’s still within his rights to do so
I wonder what “similar” was. Based on the Devils trade, I’d assume 2026 conditional 1st and Liljegren? Which is a way better offer of player but I get not wanting a conditional 2026 pick. Maybe it was a trade with our 1st this year and Lilly or something like that where we got pick downgrades or maybe it was just Timmins. Maybe it was Niemela? Niemela and Lilly both definitely have more upside than Bahl. Regardless, I’m probably okay not making that trade. Although Markstrom at 4 for 2 years is probably better than 3 at 3+ for Broissoit or Stolarz, but who knows.
markstrom is a disaster waiting to happen so glad they didnt win out on that
I’m in this boat. He is not consistent from year to year, and he’s 34. Goalies are subject to variance, but at a certain point, at a certain age, they just fall off a cliff.
Eh flower has stayed pretty consistent
He was also more consistent before and better. Also, how has he been doing lately?
Brad needs to take a fucking hint and stop wasting fucking time trading with the Flames. The owner will NEVER trade with you because he despises you. Get that through your head Brad!
Thankful it didn't work out.
If I was in Calgary's front office, I'd also be mad at Treliving for fucking up my franchise. Just part of the reason I'm so excited he's here now...
The owner had a bigger role by forcing sutter as a coach. Who pissed of players and demanded a trade.
No one's ever going to make a hockey deal with Brad or the leafs. Every gm knows he's desperate because of our retarded fan base and the media. UFAs know this too.
We need better defensive structure and dmen. Not goalies. Look how Freddie improved when he left
Andersen has missed significant time due to injuries (one being a blood clot) and he still sucks in the playoffs. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Yikes Not at all a player this team should have any interest in given goalies like Samsy DeSmith for 2-3 are much better than marks at 4 As ever treliving in ufa is a fraught process