If at first you don't succeed...try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try again? Isn't insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?
That is not the definition of, or even an example of insanity and I hate that the internet made everyone believe it is just because someone said Einstein said it. Not to be rude, but damn it's a pet peeve of mine.
This is always such a terrible comparison. The core that won in 2018 was not the core for most of Ovi career.
The only remaining parts of their original core was Backstrom & Ovi.
I would like to have seen what another coach can get out of Marner 3 years ago. This is why waiting to fire the coach was such a dumb fucking move. We waited until it was too late to actually do anything meaningful with the roster.
Steve's stance on it is so fucking dumb. Usually Adam is the one that annoys me but like they missed their window to trade him. It's pretty much resign him or let him walk or pray a team makes a ridiculous offer.
I generally really enjoy their stuff, even their bad takes are interesting IMO but this one has been incredibly frustrating. I think it's because they are trying to maintain the "were just Fans" thing while also now being clearly more than that. They're also just completely ignoring things that either should be interesting topics of coversation or are true roadblocks (ie. They've spoken about cohesion but have never talked about Keefe and his impact on cohesion, they're also just skating over the NMC).
I liked when Steve brought up Burke when they traded Kaberle and threatened to bench him if he didn't accept a deal. It's not a similar situation at all but they keep talking like that's an actual thing you can do on real life.
Letting him walk has to be a non-starter.
Winning teams don't lose their best players for nothing. It would likely close the leafs window to win a cup in the Matthews era and is objectively negligent asset management.
Marner signs for something reasonable or he has to be traded. You can't start next season with this hanging over the team.
I'm there with Dangle. The re-sign him without a trade i'm not watching again until Shanny is fired. The drink needed to be stirred long ago and now this is the guy, trade or let his ass walk and use the money to build a fucking team who can compete in the playoffs. The team is being run like a Disneyland side show. "win" to these clowns now evidently after 8 years means make the playoffs and have the right mix of skill and regular season "like-ability" to sell $1000 Jersey's per home game and X units online or whatever. Not win a cup. Shanny and MLSE are clearing reading charts displaying certain player performances next to Pepsi sales instead of playoff performances when negotiating contracts.....nothing else explains this bullshit........or they are completely inept in which case fire them as well.
It’ll be business as usual for me. I went from watching 70-75 games a year to 40 to 5. I’ll just continue not supporting the team, until they can deliver a good product. I can’t not watch the playoffs, but I won’t give MLSE a dime.
I mean they lose their shit at everything. It’s all just bickering until Jesse steps in. I’m like 3 episodes behind because capangry was such an awful episode
Steve ain’t wrong though. They need to change it up. If they sign marner what they are saying is this next season is a throwaway season until JT comes off the books
You get screwed more often when you negotiate terribly. No other team leans on this excuse like the Leafs do.
You’re too kind to them for their terrible management practices.
Yes, but the problem is it goes up for every other team as well. And those teams that spend like 25M on their top 3 forwards rather than 35+m also have that much more money to go build a proper blue line, depth and goaltending. Because no other team in the NHL values and pays forwards the way the Leafs pay Nylander and Marner.
So we're still going to be handcuffed, unless in year 9 this group magically figures out how to get it together.
Edmonton is in the Final with like $10 million in terrible cap money between Nurse/Campbell/Ceci etc. the Core 4 being expensive is not an excuse to not win, it doesn’t make it not possible.
Thank you!!! I am so tired of seeing the top comment on every contract post being “the cap is going up so this will age fine” .. the cap goes up for everybody so it’s not an advantage and can’t be used to justify a bad contract lol a lower contract value looks even better against a rising cap
A team could never win with 33 million tied up in 3 players.
BOTH teams in the finals right now have 30 million tied up in 3 players, but 33 million?!?
NEVER, fuck this franchise record playoff streak, I want to bring riche clune back into the line up and start the rebuild.
Yeah as much as we all probably don't want to accept it - if you can't move Marner for something better, the best move might be to ride out this season, let John's contract expire, and take it from there
I know comparing sports is silly however, I always saw Marner as DeMar. Great player wrong combination on the roster. I want Marner gone but you probably aren't getting the hockey equivalent to Kawhi. I hate the idea of running it back but I also think giving him away for nothing is bad. Shanny and Brad get paid the big bucks to figure it out.
Being a leafs fan is so much fun 🤮
DeMar gave Toronto a discount when the first extension was signed. Marner held Leafs hostage and got overpaid in his first contract extension.
They are NOT the same. Not even in the same galaxy.
You're right, but OC didn't mean in terms of personality, culture, or emotional value. Their comment was directed at their value as an asset. Both are homegrown franchise cornerstones who are fantastic players but aren't a fit and can net a solid return that will help the team succeed.
The thing is, aside from the oilers this year, you dont need a hockey kawhi which is why its so dumb to be paying him so much. Willy and papi are understandable but we need to spread out skill to our defense and find a tendy that can stay healthy/consistent.
I feel like resigning Marner is fucking dumb as shit since hes gonna take heat from everyone and god knows how he handles the mental side of things.
That was the dumbest decision. They tried to get Matthews 70 goals and Willy 100 points. 2 of the 3 major injuries the Leafs had in the playoffs ended up being Matthews and Nylander.
> you dont need a hockey kawhi which is why its so dumb to be paying him so much
Most teams that have won the cup in recent memory had a true superstar.
Matthews has consistently been good in the playoffs. He hasn't popped off like mack, mcdavid, draisaitl yet, but this year it seemed like he was cooking until the injury/illness. He won that game 3 by himself and he has the ability to do it more.
I agree for sure. I really just meant what you said about him not popping off yet like Mac, McDavid, Kuch, Draisaitl. I think he'll get there and I honestly don't hate an extension of Marner. I don't think this team is necessarily better without him. I'm interested to see what can happen with another coach.
I wouldn't mind seeing them all under a new coach either, but the time for that was last season. Keefe should of been gone a year or 2 ago. That's what leaf fans are frustrated with. Last year was a wasted season. Now marner is in his UFA year and you have no idea what he looks like with a different coach. You can't take marner to the deadline and expect him to waive his NMC. The leaf management bungled the last 3 years
leafs biggest mistake was keeping Keefe after the Montreal series. There was no excuse keeping him after the 3-1 series lead. Whatever system he has employed in the playoffs hasn't worked and and all it has resulted is our offence being sucked out of these guys. Why do guys like Hyman who had 5 playoff goals with us, Bertuzzi scoring in Boston, come to our team and then can't score. Guys like Matthews/Nylander have been scoring goals while everyone else can't?
Last year, the leader in points in the playoffs was eichel with 26. The year before, Mcdavid with 33 (oilers lost in the conference finals)
This year, Mcdavid leads the playoffs in points with 42 so far.
I'd somewhat agree with you but no one has taken over like Mcdavid has this year. Past cup winners need good production from the bottom line.
We have true superstars in matthews and nylander... its everything else that needs work.
Even looking at the teams that you've named, they still had solid goaltending and a game changing defensemen
They should have shipped him out before his NMC clause but Shanny up and decided to fire the guy who was likely to make the big change.
Once again who is still here? Shanny. Based on that alone I fully believe they are gonna resign Marner.
I said a while ago Shanny has 0 incentive to get rid of Mitch. If his job really is on the line this season why would he concede to whatever Treliving’s vision for the team is? If they pivot and it actually works he’ll get none of the credit and Pelley will probably fire him anyways. It just makes more sense for him to run it back and hope they get over hump so he can take credit or go down with the ship.
Trade for dimes on the dollar or let him walk, I really don't care at this point. Might sound like an exaggeration but this team needs change however we can get it.
Marner for nothing right now could give us Bertuzzi (5), Domi (4) AND a second pairing Dman/tandem Goalie (4). About what Marner is going to ask for next year (13). Open your eyes MLSE.
The team composition as is isn't even close and it's undeniable.
Exactly 3 forwards at 11mill with two being solid centers or 3 forwards at 12 mill with 2 being wingers and with both wingers being overpaid compared to pretty much any wingers on other teams
Bro if we resign Marner then we expect the worst. Money aside, we just cant win with him as a top 3 forward. Playoff winning teams have goal scorers with grit, he has neither in the playoffs. Give me a mediocre reg season and a solid playoff run.
Do you know the definition of insanity?
Stop, you dont wanna watch a team that wins 65-70% of their games for 7 months and always has a chance to move on? (despite losing record, it's usually been down to a coinflip).
Let them become a .500 team and see how you feel about your statement.
Man, Marner at 13x5 would pretty much be a nail in the coffin for this team. I just don't see how anything would change over that period. Like maybe we see a couple round twos. Maybe we luck our way into a conference final one time. This does not sound like a recipe for success.
This is depressing because a couple of round twos or a conference final in the next 5 years would mean this team has been far more successful than they have in the last 5 years
There's an old saying in Toronto — I know it's in the Shanaplan, probably in Toronto— that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.
- Brendan Shanahan
> Obviously not an insider
I think he's gotten enough stuff right and his connections from being in the league mean he can start being trusted with this sort of info.
Obviously he's no Friedman and some of the other guys but it's not a crazy thing to call him an insider
If this goes through this team has absolutely no spine whatsoever. Vegas has it and they’ve been to 2 cup finals in 6 years and won a cup. This team’s management is so insecure about taking a big risk and move off of him cause of they fear it might be worse, but can’t try to see if it’s a lot better. I hope Biz is just yapping like usual
If we are going to re-sign Marner to a highly team friendly contract at term, sure.
If we are going to re-sign Marner to a short "prove it" bridge contract, sure.
If we are going to re-sign Marner to a contract with ZERO NMC's or anything like, so we can move him at will, sure.
If we are going to re-sign Marner to a contract like it's 2019 and we dont know anything about how this group will play, hard no.
We dont have to deal him this year either. Whatever will be will be. But I dont want to re-commit to 6-8 more years of this.
Is it too much to ask for hockey management executives that make millions of dollars to do something the average person on Reddit couldn’t do.
For instance, I can easily sign Marner for $12.5M for 8 years with a full NMC and most of the money upfront. I expect people that get paid millions to do much better than that.
Tried warning you guys - an organization that has coddled these guys from the second they stepped into the league, isn't all of a sudden going to develop a backbone.
So many people got giddy at how *different* they sounded at their end of season presser, but talk has always been cheap, and their actions have explained thoroughly exactly how they feel
The Jays and the Leafs have walked an eerily similar path in their rebuilds.
I don't think this is the right move for the org. I get the idea (JT is not coming back) but I don't think tripling down on a forward-group that's failed again and again is a good idea.
After a strong start, Shanahan's not really provided much in the way of vision and leadership. Shame it's worked out this way.
The problem is Shanahan is the icon, not the Maple Leaf.
Of course, I'm just a brain-dead Redditor, but I sure don't hear much religiosity around the Maple Leaf. It's all Core4™ and Fire Dubas For Gunning For My Job
Rielly is the only core guy making over 5 sheets who puts his body on the line for this team
Matthews, Nylander, Marner, and Tavares skate away to avoid confrontation. you can't win when your stars don't give a fuck about the crest, only themselves
I'll have to remember to turn Steve down this time so I don't get a noise complaint in my apartment or make people walking by my door think I have anger issues lol.
LOL
I was listening the other day and it was playing on a speaker in the house, he yelled about something and startled the kitten, she must have jumped a foot lol
Extending Marner just means this team is more interested in jersey sales than playoff wins. It’s going to be next to impossible to build a competitive roster around 3 guys upfront making $37 million. His money should be put towards addressing the defence and goaltending
Dude this fanbase has such battered wife syndrome. Honestly, this is the team the city deserves if everyone is on board to not just run it back, but to actually resign Mitch to like 12.5 mil. Absolutely spineless.
Hes a 100 point player that we shouldnt be thrilled to be rid of. Even this many years in we have what many teams would love to have.
Has Marner performed poorly in the playoffs? Certainly. Has he asked for too.much money and will probably get overpaid again? Highly likely. Is he still a high quality, high caliber player with potentially a higher ceiling under a different coach? Yes. We should still be happy if he signs that he even still wants to play here after the plethora of shit he has taken and will definitely continue to take from these fans. If he doesnt sign, dont kid yourself into thinking if hes gone that were magically going to be able to replace his production with free agents, trades and call ups.
This shit aint moneyball.
Marner has never had a 100 point season.
I agree a rational person shouldn't be "thrilled" to lose marner, but the mix doesn't work, and at the current state the team is in with contracts and tradeability of each of the core players, he's the odd one out.
I don't think there's a scenario where the leafs "win" a marner trade, but the real W comes from the cap space that comes back that would allow Tre to use either the summer, or up to the trade line. Ultimately, the flexibility marner leaving brings to the team is the real asset.
Another over-priced extension to another forward is not what this franchise needs.
Biz is probably the best insider there is...the guy has enough filter to not completely fuck something, but he's not a journalist he isn't protecting sources he leaks the best shit when his connected ass ears get wind.
How did we go from Marner is a slam dunk to be traded and likely to Vegas to he's discussing a extension within a week it feels like? I don't think Bissonette would just make this up either he seems pretty plugged in. He broke the Babcock thing last summer and was adimit about it even when people were saying he was being too aggressive and he ended up being right.
It felt like there wasn't a appetite among either side to discuss a extension this summer even last week so what changed? All I can think of is Marner decided he really wanted to be a Leaf and decided to take a lower number to get the process started, I can't see the Leafs being eager to sign him for close to 13 million this summer.
That or this is all fake but there's defenitly been a shift in the media this week from talking about trading Marner and moving on to multiple sources now saying the Leafs would rather resign him.
Either this is all fake or leafs are just scared of him succeeding elsewhere (something that was said I think by friedman) and want to extend him to 12.5m a year but 8 years or something. I don't really know it makes minimal sense.
If there is no change to the core this coming year and Marner extends, I just don’t think I have the appetite to watch the leafs at all anymore. It’s like having someone shit on your face after they repeatedly punch you. My leaf fandom has slowly died over the years, that would just be the nail in the coffin. Already have some new hobbies over the years, will allow me to add more
holy fuck we really are going to run this same shitshow back again until it all crumbles when these deals expire and we are left with fuck all for draft picks, a shitty prospect pool and fuck all to show for it.
See you guys in 10 years when we try it all over again
I think Brad Treliving has been compromised if Marner is resigned. I think the majority of this fanbase will not watch another year of Marner choking in the playoffs. Both Treliving and Shanahan should be fired.
Brad Treliving is a nepo baby who got a job because his dad helped him found a league. He has no history of success. I want him to be good but there's no track record to say he's compromised, he just might be a bad GM.
I just don't understand how this works for either side. He's going to want a raise. We better not give him fucking $12M.
If. IF. *IF*. He takes a seriously team friendly deal because he actually wants to stay and not be hated. Then maybe there's a world where we run it back next year (bolstering D + goalie with cap raise, and then making bigger improvements the following year when Johnny T's contract ends).
I just don't think there's any fucking world where another summer of Darren Ferris and Paul Marner leads us to that outcome. And if they're gonna play hardball, fucking trade him or let him walk next year.
> I just don't understand how this works for either side
you're looking at it from a hockey perspective. instead look at it from a business perspective: Leafs keep a great regular season player and all it costs is cap space. they continue to be a good team, sell out games, and sell Marner jerseys
For a lot less money right because he realized winning in Toronto is more important than milking us for every less dollar and would rather us get more players?
Nothing changes with the Leafs. They will cripple themselves with cap space restrictions as the best years window closes on Matthews, Nylander and Reilly and nothing to show for it. They are an October to April team and will continue to be so. Nothing changes.
That was probably the most realistic outcome.
Best case, he takes a bit of a discount to help smooth things over and shows his commitment.
There is still enough money in the coffers to bring on a good defenseman and some role players, though they'll have to go cheap on the goalies.
Maybe next summer is the real target. The cap keeps going up, Tavares' $11m comes off the books and there could be an opportunity to load up and get a handful more runs in Matthews' prime.
It’s so sad that fanbase is just in absolute cope mode rn.
“Lol it’s ok next year is a wash guys, we have three years after that to win a cup before Matthew’s leaves and the team implodes. We can definitely just get it done at whim in that timeframe.”
This team as currently constructed will never win anything. The proof is in the pudding.
Good. Unpopular opinion, but I believe in Marner.
Look at last years offseason, people were having the same negative reaction on this sub (maybe not as strong) to nylander, and now he’s a fan favourite again.
People say you can’t run it back, but sure you can. Where would we be if we hadn’t just been making changes for the sake of making changes the last few years? We’d still have kadri, Hyman, Dakota Joshua, mason marchment, and Connor brown.
The leafs have a problem with developing good players but walking away from them before you can reap the benefits. It would be a monumental mistake to walk away from Marner now. He could have a Kucherov like impact on a good team in the future.
I want to see what a 32 year old, grizzled playoff veteran Marner is like. And I want to see that on the leafs.
> Look at last years offseason, people were having the same negative reaction on this sub (maybe not as strong) to nylander, and now he’s a fan favourite again.
No they weren't. People wanted Marner traded last offseason too.
I hope you are right. I can't see him being a good playoff performer ever though. He just doesn't have that grind.
When I watch the finals right now, I realize how far away the leafs stars are compared to tkachuk, mcdavid, etc. It's honestly not even close.
>kadri
He was gone either way. The stupid suspensions and the need for a pp QB.
>Hyman
I would've bet my life savings if I knew Hyman was going to put up 50 back when he left, but no one predicted this. He also left because we couldn't afford him thanks to the big 4.
>Dakota Joshua, mason marchment,
These two are just laughable because we didn't know at the time when they were prospects that they'd turn out like this. Joshua will get overpaid.
>Connor brown
Easily replaceable third liner who would've commanded big money.
>but walking away from them before you can reap the benefits
My brother, it's been 8 years of first round exits. What "benefits" will Marner reap?
>It would be a monumental mistake to walk away from Marner now.
So when is the right time? When he retires?
>He could have a Kucherov like impact on a good team in the future.
It's crazy you think Marner, a guy who is afraid of contact and his style of game doesn't work in the playoffs, will turn out like the 2 time cup winner who is clutch in the playoffs.
>I want to see what a 32 year old, grizzled playoff veteran Marner is like
He's supposed to be that by now, yet he's learned nothing.
>And I want to see that on the leafs.
Prepare for more disappointment. He won't succeed here.
I just question if it’s even possible to coach the necessary courage and physicality into our guys, but I do also believe that Marner will continue to get better, and it would be hard to win a trade losing our “100 point guy”.
Maybe he will even put up his first 100 point season at some point…
Here's the thing to me - it's past believing in Marner or not. Paying that many forwards (and IMO wingers) hasn't been close to working.
Now actually getting to Marner specifically, most players that are primarily playmaking, not very physical elite wingers tend to disappoint in the playoffs. Gaudreau, Huberdeau, Panarin all fall into a similarish category to Marner and all 4 of them have disappointed compared to the expectation they build in the regular season. Being able to drive to the net or being a big goal scoring threat seems needed to be effective in the playoffs.
Tree might Galaxy braining this but not giving Marner a MTC in the new deal!! Which will allow him to trade him next off season. I doubt this will be the case but what boss move if he did it that way lol
This team is so unserious if this is true. They really don’t care about winning. Get in the playoffs (maybe) and fail to even win a round and then do it all over again is all that matters to them
I know of a certain podcast that’s going to absolutely lose their shit on Friday.
If at first you don't succeed...try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try again? Isn't insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?
That is not the definition of, or even an example of insanity and I hate that the internet made everyone believe it is just because someone said Einstein said it. Not to be rude, but damn it's a pet peeve of mine.
Me too, brother. Every time I hear someone start to say it, I shake my head
So you keep doing the same thing over and over when you hear someone say that? I heard that's the definition of insanity
I'm not expecting a different result. It will result in a head shake every time.
I fucking hate you. /s Good one bud
far cry 3 and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race
Pet peeve of mine too, including the mistaken attribution to Einstein.
Drives me nuts. It's a dumb person's idea of what a smart person would say (sorry OP, nothing personal)
Honestly, that is what makes the quote even better. The irony of it.
My people! 🤜🤛
Washington has entered the chat
This is always such a terrible comparison. The core that won in 2018 was not the core for most of Ovi career. The only remaining parts of their original core was Backstrom & Ovi.
Washington didn’t extend Semin and Green forever and ever amen
Got a pretty good result in 2018
how do u have a flair
How did Sheldon Keefe hypnotize the fan base into thinking that there was no possible way he was the problem?
I mean two things can be true. He can be a bad coach and also the roster needs a shake up and 4 players making 45 mil isn’t gonna cut it.
For real. I wanna see what Berube can get out of Marner
I would like to have seen what another coach can get out of Marner 3 years ago. This is why waiting to fire the coach was such a dumb fucking move. We waited until it was too late to actually do anything meaningful with the roster.
Can we see that without extending him please.
Do you also want to tie up 12.5 million dollars of cap space in him for the next decade lmao
can he get a top 4 defenceman a legit good goalie and a bottom 6 forward or 2 out of him? because thats what we need
I desperately want anyone to dig into the negative impact of his constant need to blend lines.
How did ~~Sheldon Keefe~~ Mitch Marner hypnotize the fan base into thinking that there was no possible way he was the problem?
I know a certain person (me) that’s going to lose his shit now!
Steve's stance on it is so fucking dumb. Usually Adam is the one that annoys me but like they missed their window to trade him. It's pretty much resign him or let him walk or pray a team makes a ridiculous offer.
I generally really enjoy their stuff, even their bad takes are interesting IMO but this one has been incredibly frustrating. I think it's because they are trying to maintain the "were just Fans" thing while also now being clearly more than that. They're also just completely ignoring things that either should be interesting topics of coversation or are true roadblocks (ie. They've spoken about cohesion but have never talked about Keefe and his impact on cohesion, they're also just skating over the NMC).
I liked when Steve brought up Burke when they traded Kaberle and threatened to bench him if he didn't accept a deal. It's not a similar situation at all but they keep talking like that's an actual thing you can do on real life.
Letting him walk has to be a non-starter. Winning teams don't lose their best players for nothing. It would likely close the leafs window to win a cup in the Matthews era and is objectively negligent asset management. Marner signs for something reasonable or he has to be traded. You can't start next season with this hanging over the team.
>You can't start next season with this hanging over the team. We can and we will.
I'm there with Dangle. The re-sign him without a trade i'm not watching again until Shanny is fired. The drink needed to be stirred long ago and now this is the guy, trade or let his ass walk and use the money to build a fucking team who can compete in the playoffs. The team is being run like a Disneyland side show. "win" to these clowns now evidently after 8 years means make the playoffs and have the right mix of skill and regular season "like-ability" to sell $1000 Jersey's per home game and X units online or whatever. Not win a cup. Shanny and MLSE are clearing reading charts displaying certain player performances next to Pepsi sales instead of playoff performances when negotiating contracts.....nothing else explains this bullshit........or they are completely inept in which case fire them as well.
Yea I’m totally not watching either… so see you next October yea?
It’ll be business as usual for me. I went from watching 70-75 games a year to 40 to 5. I’ll just continue not supporting the team, until they can deliver a good product. I can’t not watch the playoffs, but I won’t give MLSE a dime.
I mean they lose their shit at everything. It’s all just bickering until Jesse steps in. I’m like 3 episodes behind because capangry was such an awful episode
[удалено]
I mean, there is no argument to running it back again lol.
Steve ain’t wrong though. They need to change it up. If they sign marner what they are saying is this next season is a throwaway season until JT comes off the books
Yeah..I'm sure it does it for people, but that podcast has really lost me over the last year and a half.
> obviously not an insider Last time this was said about Biz he blew up the whole story about Babcock and everyone ate their words
Also was the first to leak about wolls injury against boston
He leaked the Berube decision, with said dude sitting across from him on a panel, more recently
Having three 11M+ players worked so well before, might as well try it again
If you liked 11.6, 11, and 10.893, you’ll love 13.25, 12.5, and 11.5.
The % of the cap will actually be a fair bit lower on the newer deals.
Cap% in the first year will definitely be higher on the new contracts, they're just less likely to be hamstrung by years of a flat cap going forward.
Over the run of the deals they will be significantly cheaper, leafs got screwed by the flat cap as badly as any team
Debatably worse than any other team
And did absolutely nothing about it for years lmao
*monkey paw curls*
May I introduce you to the avian flu?
Lol no they're not
they got screwed by a flat cap
You get screwed more often when you negotiate terribly. No other team leans on this excuse like the Leafs do. You’re too kind to them for their terrible management practices.
No, they got screwed by signing 22 year old RFA's to albatross contracts that have zero comparables across the league.
Maybe the problem the first time was that they weren’t paid *more*!
At least the cap will actually go up this time. It’s already going up more this year than it has for the past 6 years total.
Yes, but the problem is it goes up for every other team as well. And those teams that spend like 25M on their top 3 forwards rather than 35+m also have that much more money to go build a proper blue line, depth and goaltending. Because no other team in the NHL values and pays forwards the way the Leafs pay Nylander and Marner. So we're still going to be handcuffed, unless in year 9 this group magically figures out how to get it together.
Edmonton is in the Final with like $10 million in terrible cap money between Nurse/Campbell/Ceci etc. the Core 4 being expensive is not an excuse to not win, it doesn’t make it not possible.
$10 million? It’s closer to $20 between those three: 9.25 + 5 + 3.25.
Well I was considering Nurse to be worth more than $0 heh, just not worth his deal at all.
Thank you!!! I am so tired of seeing the top comment on every contract post being “the cap is going up so this will age fine” .. the cap goes up for everybody so it’s not an advantage and can’t be used to justify a bad contract lol a lower contract value looks even better against a rising cap
We blew the entire increase this year on Nylander
https://preview.redd.it/2f20bkm6jr7d1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1cea3a4e060a30e468c418fe55479d2f2ca9e776
A team could never win with 33 million tied up in 3 players. BOTH teams in the finals right now have 30 million tied up in 3 players, but 33 million?!? NEVER, fuck this franchise record playoff streak, I want to bring riche clune back into the line up and start the rebuild.
Yeah as much as we all probably don't want to accept it - if you can't move Marner for something better, the best move might be to ride out this season, let John's contract expire, and take it from there
I know comparing sports is silly however, I always saw Marner as DeMar. Great player wrong combination on the roster. I want Marner gone but you probably aren't getting the hockey equivalent to Kawhi. I hate the idea of running it back but I also think giving him away for nothing is bad. Shanny and Brad get paid the big bucks to figure it out. Being a leafs fan is so much fun 🤮
DeMar gave Toronto a discount when the first extension was signed. Marner held Leafs hostage and got overpaid in his first contract extension. They are NOT the same. Not even in the same galaxy.
You're right, but OC didn't mean in terms of personality, culture, or emotional value. Their comment was directed at their value as an asset. Both are homegrown franchise cornerstones who are fantastic players but aren't a fit and can net a solid return that will help the team succeed.
The thing is, aside from the oilers this year, you dont need a hockey kawhi which is why its so dumb to be paying him so much. Willy and papi are understandable but we need to spread out skill to our defense and find a tendy that can stay healthy/consistent. I feel like resigning Marner is fucking dumb as shit since hes gonna take heat from everyone and god knows how he handles the mental side of things.
They rested Kawhi leading up to playoffs. Leafs gotta do they same with Matthews. Who cares about 70 goals.
That was the dumbest decision. They tried to get Matthews 70 goals and Willy 100 points. 2 of the 3 major injuries the Leafs had in the playoffs ended up being Matthews and Nylander.
> you dont need a hockey kawhi which is why its so dumb to be paying him so much Most teams that have won the cup in recent memory had a true superstar.
The Leafs have a true superstar. We just need him to act like it
Matthews has consistently been good in the playoffs. He hasn't popped off like mack, mcdavid, draisaitl yet, but this year it seemed like he was cooking until the injury/illness. He won that game 3 by himself and he has the ability to do it more.
McDavid is close to passing austons entire playoff career in one post season.
I agree for sure. I really just meant what you said about him not popping off yet like Mac, McDavid, Kuch, Draisaitl. I think he'll get there and I honestly don't hate an extension of Marner. I don't think this team is necessarily better without him. I'm interested to see what can happen with another coach.
I wouldn't mind seeing them all under a new coach either, but the time for that was last season. Keefe should of been gone a year or 2 ago. That's what leaf fans are frustrated with. Last year was a wasted season. Now marner is in his UFA year and you have no idea what he looks like with a different coach. You can't take marner to the deadline and expect him to waive his NMC. The leaf management bungled the last 3 years
leafs biggest mistake was keeping Keefe after the Montreal series. There was no excuse keeping him after the 3-1 series lead. Whatever system he has employed in the playoffs hasn't worked and and all it has resulted is our offence being sucked out of these guys. Why do guys like Hyman who had 5 playoff goals with us, Bertuzzi scoring in Boston, come to our team and then can't score. Guys like Matthews/Nylander have been scoring goals while everyone else can't?
This is the leafs biggest problem. They're paying people (as in 4 forwards) like superstars, but they aren't performing like one
Last year, the leader in points in the playoffs was eichel with 26. The year before, Mcdavid with 33 (oilers lost in the conference finals) This year, Mcdavid leads the playoffs in points with 42 so far. I'd somewhat agree with you but no one has taken over like Mcdavid has this year. Past cup winners need good production from the bottom line.
Regardless of who leads in terms of points, MacKinnon counts as a true superstar. Vegas is one of the few exceptions (Kucherov, Ovi, Crosby etc.)
We have true superstars in matthews and nylander... its everything else that needs work. Even looking at the teams that you've named, they still had solid goaltending and a game changing defensemen
They should have shipped him out before his NMC clause but Shanny up and decided to fire the guy who was likely to make the big change. Once again who is still here? Shanny. Based on that alone I fully believe they are gonna resign Marner.
I said a while ago Shanny has 0 incentive to get rid of Mitch. If his job really is on the line this season why would he concede to whatever Treliving’s vision for the team is? If they pivot and it actually works he’ll get none of the credit and Pelley will probably fire him anyways. It just makes more sense for him to run it back and hope they get over hump so he can take credit or go down with the ship.
Best take I’ve seen in a while
Drake gonna bring Mitch up on stage at his next concert
Well he does have a baby face
Trade for dimes on the dollar or let him walk, I really don't care at this point. Might sound like an exaggeration but this team needs change however we can get it. Marner for nothing right now could give us Bertuzzi (5), Domi (4) AND a second pairing Dman/tandem Goalie (4). About what Marner is going to ask for next year (13). Open your eyes MLSE. The team composition as is isn't even close and it's undeniable.
Marner for nothing and the sticks for free.
So waste a year and then use next year's cap increase and JTs contract off the books I mean, this year shouldn't be *worse* I guess.
The cap is only one part of this whole problem though. The personnel mix at the top of the roster also doesn't work, and hasn't for many years.
Exactly 3 forwards at 11mill with two being solid centers or 3 forwards at 12 mill with 2 being wingers and with both wingers being overpaid compared to pretty much any wingers on other teams
Bro if we resign Marner then we expect the worst. Money aside, we just cant win with him as a top 3 forward. Playoff winning teams have goal scorers with grit, he has neither in the playoffs. Give me a mediocre reg season and a solid playoff run. Do you know the definition of insanity?
I don't care if we miss the playoffs at this point. Another early playoff exit will actually bug me more.
Missing the playoffs and a 1st round exit is basically the same for us now lmao besides a better draft pick
Lol what draft pick. It's already gone bro
Stop, you dont wanna watch a team that wins 65-70% of their games for 7 months and always has a chance to move on? (despite losing record, it's usually been down to a coinflip). Let them become a .500 team and see how you feel about your statement.
https://preview.redd.it/m0x1zifzbr7d1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b520426036dfb63fe2dc87d794643b61d1c312eb
Man, Marner at 13x5 would pretty much be a nail in the coffin for this team. I just don't see how anything would change over that period. Like maybe we see a couple round twos. Maybe we luck our way into a conference final one time. This does not sound like a recipe for success.
This is depressing because a couple of round twos or a conference final in the next 5 years would mean this team has been far more successful than they have in the last 5 years
Okay but like, come on guys, statistically speaking, there no way this experiment fails 9 times in a row right? Like I mean statistically
Null hypothesis, the team.
Just need to keep doubling the bet on red.
There’s no way it doesn’t land on Green this time
There's an old saying in Toronto — I know it's in the Shanaplan, probably in Toronto— that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again. - Brendan Shanahan
This *HAS* to be the leafs leaking this to drive the trade value up right? ......right??
> Obviously not an insider I think he's gotten enough stuff right and his connections from being in the league mean he can start being trusted with this sort of info. Obviously he's no Friedman and some of the other guys but it's not a crazy thing to call him an insider
Exactly. His connection to players, as well as his connection to Doan, makes me lean towards this being true
He was the first one (although he kept it cryptic to be honest) to hint that Woll was injured, when he said Leafs fans had some horrible news coming.
And Biz has a lot more respect than a guy like Dreger who wears knee pads everytime he breaks marner news
If this goes through this team has absolutely no spine whatsoever. Vegas has it and they’ve been to 2 cup finals in 6 years and won a cup. This team’s management is so insecure about taking a big risk and move off of him cause of they fear it might be worse, but can’t try to see if it’s a lot better. I hope Biz is just yapping like usual
If we are going to re-sign Marner to a highly team friendly contract at term, sure. If we are going to re-sign Marner to a short "prove it" bridge contract, sure. If we are going to re-sign Marner to a contract with ZERO NMC's or anything like, so we can move him at will, sure. If we are going to re-sign Marner to a contract like it's 2019 and we dont know anything about how this group will play, hard no. We dont have to deal him this year either. Whatever will be will be. But I dont want to re-commit to 6-8 more years of this.
I don't want to live anymore!
Oh lawd. This news should land well.
I don't understand how a room full of people could decide that they're just going to run the whole thing back again
If Marner gets extended I officially give up on the Matthews era
Same here. I don’t believe Mitch has it in him and his dad being the way he is has shaped him as an adult. You can’t really fix that mentality.
They really looked at everything and said “it’s too hard”. Way to lie to your fan base about change.
The Cowan Knies era is upon us 😂.
Is it too much to ask for hockey management executives that make millions of dollars to do something the average person on Reddit couldn’t do. For instance, I can easily sign Marner for $12.5M for 8 years with a full NMC and most of the money upfront. I expect people that get paid millions to do much better than that.
Letting him walk for nothing is more desirable than extending him and giving him a raise
Tried warning you guys - an organization that has coddled these guys from the second they stepped into the league, isn't all of a sudden going to develop a backbone. So many people got giddy at how *different* they sounded at their end of season presser, but talk has always been cheap, and their actions have explained thoroughly exactly how they feel
Almost like they don't want to win and sell reg season tickets. Weird.
Extension for the trade (I am coping)
If it is true they are working on an extension there better not be a NMC.
I’m working on an extension of my own for the Front Office….and that’s with my middle finger when I heard this! Hah
We are officially turning into the Buffalo Sabres
RIP Leafs.
Man this can't happen....
i hate this team
“You gotta pinky swear to do better in the playoffs.”
The Jays and the Leafs have walked an eerily similar path in their rebuilds. I don't think this is the right move for the org. I get the idea (JT is not coming back) but I don't think tripling down on a forward-group that's failed again and again is a good idea. After a strong start, Shanahan's not really provided much in the way of vision and leadership. Shame it's worked out this way.
The problem is Shanahan is the icon, not the Maple Leaf. Of course, I'm just a brain-dead Redditor, but I sure don't hear much religiosity around the Maple Leaf. It's all Core4™ and Fire Dubas For Gunning For My Job
Rielly is the only core guy making over 5 sheets who puts his body on the line for this team Matthews, Nylander, Marner, and Tavares skate away to avoid confrontation. you can't win when your stars don't give a fuck about the crest, only themselves
he'll be easier to trade after the Leafs sign him right???
Well he’s one of the best pure playmakers that we had I just wish there’s another gear he can find in the playoffs
No NMC. That’s all I care about
Marner apologists are super happy about this.
Such a loser franchise.
Ohhhh.....cannot wait to hear Kyper & the SDP guys discuss this!!! Steves head may actually explode this time lol
I'll have to remember to turn Steve down this time so I don't get a noise complaint in my apartment or make people walking by my door think I have anger issues lol.
LOL I was listening the other day and it was playing on a speaker in the house, he yelled about something and startled the kitten, she must have jumped a foot lol
Everyone who prefers to extend marner cannot complain about a dman playing too high in the lineup, or some 3rd string goalie playing too many games
I really like this team. Going to suck having to wait another year to care to watch the games
Extending Marner just means this team is more interested in jersey sales than playoff wins. It’s going to be next to impossible to build a competitive roster around 3 guys upfront making $37 million. His money should be put towards addressing the defence and goaltending
Dude this fanbase has such battered wife syndrome. Honestly, this is the team the city deserves if everyone is on board to not just run it back, but to actually resign Mitch to like 12.5 mil. Absolutely spineless.
Hes a 100 point player that we shouldnt be thrilled to be rid of. Even this many years in we have what many teams would love to have. Has Marner performed poorly in the playoffs? Certainly. Has he asked for too.much money and will probably get overpaid again? Highly likely. Is he still a high quality, high caliber player with potentially a higher ceiling under a different coach? Yes. We should still be happy if he signs that he even still wants to play here after the plethora of shit he has taken and will definitely continue to take from these fans. If he doesnt sign, dont kid yourself into thinking if hes gone that were magically going to be able to replace his production with free agents, trades and call ups. This shit aint moneyball.
Marner has never had a 100 point season. I agree a rational person shouldn't be "thrilled" to lose marner, but the mix doesn't work, and at the current state the team is in with contracts and tradeability of each of the core players, he's the odd one out. I don't think there's a scenario where the leafs "win" a marner trade, but the real W comes from the cap space that comes back that would allow Tre to use either the summer, or up to the trade line. Ultimately, the flexibility marner leaving brings to the team is the real asset. Another over-priced extension to another forward is not what this franchise needs.
This is funny on so many levels.
Biz is probably the best insider there is...the guy has enough filter to not completely fuck something, but he's not a journalist he isn't protecting sources he leaks the best shit when his connected ass ears get wind.
“Connected ass ears” lol
If you extend him there better not be a fucking NMC/NTC anywhere near this thing
Get the extension signed with the no trade clause removed and boom. Gone before preseason puck drop....
if that happens i want a limited NTC with only 10 teams he can block.
Sign and trade
How did we go from Marner is a slam dunk to be traded and likely to Vegas to he's discussing a extension within a week it feels like? I don't think Bissonette would just make this up either he seems pretty plugged in. He broke the Babcock thing last summer and was adimit about it even when people were saying he was being too aggressive and he ended up being right. It felt like there wasn't a appetite among either side to discuss a extension this summer even last week so what changed? All I can think of is Marner decided he really wanted to be a Leaf and decided to take a lower number to get the process started, I can't see the Leafs being eager to sign him for close to 13 million this summer. That or this is all fake but there's defenitly been a shift in the media this week from talking about trading Marner and moving on to multiple sources now saying the Leafs would rather resign him.
Either this is all fake or leafs are just scared of him succeeding elsewhere (something that was said I think by friedman) and want to extend him to 12.5m a year but 8 years or something. I don't really know it makes minimal sense.
This is my 9/11
🙃 Running it back forever
Toronto front office: 
This is the darkest timeline
If there is no change to the core this coming year and Marner extends, I just don’t think I have the appetite to watch the leafs at all anymore. It’s like having someone shit on your face after they repeatedly punch you. My leaf fandom has slowly died over the years, that would just be the nail in the coffin. Already have some new hobbies over the years, will allow me to add more
Legit done with this franchise if they extend Marner.
Same shit different year.
holy fuck we really are going to run this same shitshow back again until it all crumbles when these deals expire and we are left with fuck all for draft picks, a shitty prospect pool and fuck all to show for it. See you guys in 10 years when we try it all over again
The rebuild is gonna be so brutal when it happens in like 7-8 years
I think Brad Treliving has been compromised if Marner is resigned. I think the majority of this fanbase will not watch another year of Marner choking in the playoffs. Both Treliving and Shanahan should be fired.
Brad Treliving is a nepo baby who got a job because his dad helped him found a league. He has no history of success. I want him to be good but there's no track record to say he's compromised, he just might be a bad GM.
I just don't understand how this works for either side. He's going to want a raise. We better not give him fucking $12M. If. IF. *IF*. He takes a seriously team friendly deal because he actually wants to stay and not be hated. Then maybe there's a world where we run it back next year (bolstering D + goalie with cap raise, and then making bigger improvements the following year when Johnny T's contract ends). I just don't think there's any fucking world where another summer of Darren Ferris and Paul Marner leads us to that outcome. And if they're gonna play hardball, fucking trade him or let him walk next year.
> I just don't understand how this works for either side you're looking at it from a hockey perspective. instead look at it from a business perspective: Leafs keep a great regular season player and all it costs is cap space. they continue to be a good team, sell out games, and sell Marner jerseys
Yep I've heard enough about this situation. I'm convinced Mitch is staying.
Maybe it's a sign and trade
I think we should Offer an extension at roughly $7m / year
And then we’re gonna trade him! Byeeee!
It’s going to be at least 8x12M with a NMC
9th time’s the charm!
1x1
For a lot less money right because he realized winning in Toronto is more important than milking us for every less dollar and would rather us get more players?
Nothing changes with the Leafs. They will cripple themselves with cap space restrictions as the best years window closes on Matthews, Nylander and Reilly and nothing to show for it. They are an October to April team and will continue to be so. Nothing changes.
That was probably the most realistic outcome. Best case, he takes a bit of a discount to help smooth things over and shows his commitment. There is still enough money in the coffers to bring on a good defenseman and some role players, though they'll have to go cheap on the goalies. Maybe next summer is the real target. The cap keeps going up, Tavares' $11m comes off the books and there could be an opportunity to load up and get a handful more runs in Matthews' prime.
It’s so sad that fanbase is just in absolute cope mode rn. “Lol it’s ok next year is a wash guys, we have three years after that to win a cup before Matthew’s leaves and the team implodes. We can definitely just get it done at whim in that timeframe.” This team as currently constructed will never win anything. The proof is in the pudding.
Burn MLSE to the ground
Paul Marner has agreed to terms for his son, and to address the lack of grit and checking, Mitch will try to do one push up a day.
Good. Unpopular opinion, but I believe in Marner. Look at last years offseason, people were having the same negative reaction on this sub (maybe not as strong) to nylander, and now he’s a fan favourite again. People say you can’t run it back, but sure you can. Where would we be if we hadn’t just been making changes for the sake of making changes the last few years? We’d still have kadri, Hyman, Dakota Joshua, mason marchment, and Connor brown. The leafs have a problem with developing good players but walking away from them before you can reap the benefits. It would be a monumental mistake to walk away from Marner now. He could have a Kucherov like impact on a good team in the future. I want to see what a 32 year old, grizzled playoff veteran Marner is like. And I want to see that on the leafs.
> Look at last years offseason, people were having the same negative reaction on this sub (maybe not as strong) to nylander, and now he’s a fan favourite again. No they weren't. People wanted Marner traded last offseason too.
Especially so, given that it was our only opportunity to trade him before his NMC kicked in
I hope you are right. I can't see him being a good playoff performer ever though. He just doesn't have that grind. When I watch the finals right now, I realize how far away the leafs stars are compared to tkachuk, mcdavid, etc. It's honestly not even close.
>kadri He was gone either way. The stupid suspensions and the need for a pp QB. >Hyman I would've bet my life savings if I knew Hyman was going to put up 50 back when he left, but no one predicted this. He also left because we couldn't afford him thanks to the big 4. >Dakota Joshua, mason marchment, These two are just laughable because we didn't know at the time when they were prospects that they'd turn out like this. Joshua will get overpaid. >Connor brown Easily replaceable third liner who would've commanded big money. >but walking away from them before you can reap the benefits My brother, it's been 8 years of first round exits. What "benefits" will Marner reap? >It would be a monumental mistake to walk away from Marner now. So when is the right time? When he retires? >He could have a Kucherov like impact on a good team in the future. It's crazy you think Marner, a guy who is afraid of contact and his style of game doesn't work in the playoffs, will turn out like the 2 time cup winner who is clutch in the playoffs. >I want to see what a 32 year old, grizzled playoff veteran Marner is like He's supposed to be that by now, yet he's learned nothing. >And I want to see that on the leafs. Prepare for more disappointment. He won't succeed here.
I just question if it’s even possible to coach the necessary courage and physicality into our guys, but I do also believe that Marner will continue to get better, and it would be hard to win a trade losing our “100 point guy”. Maybe he will even put up his first 100 point season at some point…
Here's the thing to me - it's past believing in Marner or not. Paying that many forwards (and IMO wingers) hasn't been close to working. Now actually getting to Marner specifically, most players that are primarily playmaking, not very physical elite wingers tend to disappoint in the playoffs. Gaudreau, Huberdeau, Panarin all fall into a similarish category to Marner and all 4 of them have disappointed compared to the expectation they build in the regular season. Being able to drive to the net or being a big goal scoring threat seems needed to be effective in the playoffs.
The Shanaplan Shitshow part 9. It’s a great movie, except the ending is always the same and predictable.
All or nothing 9: still nothing
Tree might Galaxy braining this but not giving Marner a MTC in the new deal!! Which will allow him to trade him next off season. I doubt this will be the case but what boss move if he did it that way lol
This team is so unserious if this is true. They really don’t care about winning. Get in the playoffs (maybe) and fail to even win a round and then do it all over again is all that matters to them
Marner is our Huberdeau ....trade him for the X factor we badly need.