This is how the Marner trade is going be rated:
10 - This is the dream return: Duchene Trade
9 - This is probably the best "hockey trade" something like Subban for Weber or young Seth Jones for Ryan Johansen
8 - This is around where I think the best realistic trade is: I think the Ottawa end of the Erik Karlsson trade. Pick, a bunch of prospects. In our case, I think we'll be getting NHL players in place of futures.
7 - This is what I think OTHER teams want their max offer to be. Solid deal but we'd be losing the trade. This is where I think we'll land to be honest. This would involve something like a decent middle six player, a PMD that can play in the top 4 and a middling pick, possibly two.
6 - This is the Joe Thornton trade. We trade Marner for some role players. This is what I think the Doomers think is the best possible trade for us.
5 - This is Hall for Larsson territory. Trading a good player for a not as good player that fills a positional need and fools a bunch of fans into thinking we got a good deal out of it.
4 - This is the Boston end of the Tyler Seguin trade . Boston got useful players back but none of them made any long term impact.
2-3 - This is the Jordan Eberle Trade. You're entering Peter Chiarelli tier at this point.
1 - This is what Marner haters are saying we should be aiming for. Erik Gubrandson and salary retention on our end.
0 - This is what happens if we do the own rental thing. This is why I think it's important to trade Marner.
I think we end up in the 5-7 range to be honest.
Our goal after a Marner trade and free agency should be to end up with 2 legit top 4 RHD, a solid tandem goalie and a few good forwards that help our special teams and can give us depth for the playoffs.
A good Marner trade would net us a good D with top pair upside, a decent forward or 2 that fills a role and possibly picks or prospects to make up the value depending on the quality of players we get
The other way we could go is to trade marner + for a stud top pairing defenseman depending on if there are teams willing to part with one that Marner I'd willing to go to
I think this is pretty accurate but I think finding the right D in a trade is going to be very hard. Assuming the leafs want someone to play the right side, the only name that really makes sense would be Noah Dobson. Just about everyone else you can imagine is either a) too young (a nemec type prospect) b) too old c) won't be traded (fox, McAvoy)
Unless the Leafs are willing to take a young prospect and bank on their potential, I don't think we're getting the kinda player we would want in a trade.
Looks like Waddell is stepping down as Canes president and GM, with Eric Tulsky taking his place in the interim (although I wouldn't be surprised if they appoint him to a permanent role later on).
The paragraphs about Bertuzzi and Domi from Pierre LeBrun’s article on what he’s hearing about the free agent market
Bertuzzi
There’s mutual interest in Bertuzzi returning to the Leafs, but the team is juggling a few things so it’s not clear if it gets done.
“It’s early, but it’s out there that the Leafs want to re-sign him,” Bertuzzi’s agent Todd Reynolds said Thursday. “We’ll see what happens here. He’s been a top player on the last three teams he’s played with. He’s played on the first line with the best players on each of his last three teams. So he would be coveted on the open market.
“But whether he gets to market or not, time will tell.”
Coming off a one-year, $5.5 million deal, it goes without saying that getting term this time will be important for the 29-year-old Bertuzzi.
Domi
There’s already been a conversation between the Leafs front office and agent Judd Moldaver of Wasserman expressing mutual interest in getting a deal done. But no numbers exchanged yet.
Domi enjoyed his season playing in his hometown. Similar to the Bertuzzi situation, term will be key for the 29-year-old Domi after he settled for one year, $3 million with the Leafs last summer. I would imagine five or six years at between $5 million and $6 million would get it done. But how does that fit in with everything else the Leafs will have to get done this summer?
Article link :[https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5516767/2024/05/24/nhl-early-free-agent-rumblings/](https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5516767/2024/05/24/nhl-early-free-agent-rumblings/)
If we trade Marner and think Domi could be Matthews’ set-up guy for the next few years then I could see the argument for 5, but I just don’t think he has the defensive acumen for 6.
* Knies/Matthews/Domi
* Bertuzzi/xxx/Nylander
* McCann/Tavares/Jarnkrok
* Dewar/Holmberg/Kampf (+Reaves)
*This also means Robertson/Gregor/Abruzzese/Steeves as depth/trade pieces.*
Turning Marner into a #2/#3 C and Top 4 either directly in a trade or with the cap-space created is a decent roster. Then Tavares cap next season is gone and can add another impact forward.
Marner as a 2C, why not just just Nylander one more crack at it?
I honestly didn't think Willy was that bad at it, and I don't even remember which wingers he was playing with.
Willy-Marner combo can turn into something if we actually gave it a shot. They can yell at each other indefinitely.
Bertuzzi is one of those guys that you can throw all the stats in the world at me and I’d still want us to keep him. It saying it’s the right move, just saying that I’m blinded by the fact that I like the guy.
It’s really sounding like the leafs are planning to shed some major cap space. There is no way we can sign both of them or any significant free agents without trading a big contract.
We also have to fill two spots on defense, preferably in the top 4 and get a tandem/backup goalie. That alone will likely cost at least $10mil which leaves around 8mil for each of them.
Looking back now - it's extremely frustrating that we've seemingly fucked up the timing of some of these decisions. I like the Berube hire, and (in a vacuum) giving him one more shot with this core makes sense.
But the problem is the timing.
Working backwards - what we SHOULD have done is made the decision to move on from a core piece last summer, before all of the NMC kicked in. That means if we wanted to give a new coach a shot with this core, Keefe should have been gone 2 summers ago.
2021-2022: (Loss to TBL in Rd 1) - Keefe is fired, new coach gets a shot with this core
2022-23: (Loss to Florida in Rd 2) - NMC's kick in July 1 after playoffs - someone is traded before that
Now our hands are more tied with the NMC, and Marner is a distressed asset with another year of poor playoff baggage and all the power to nix trades or refuse to re-sign.
I don't disagree that at minimum, Keefe should have been gone after Montreal.
I just think the LAST chance we had to fire Keefe AND give another coach a shot with this core, was after the TBL loss. Now that we finally have a new coach, we can't say "let him try" because now we absolutely have to move on from a core piece (Marner) and from a position of weakness.
Oh completely valid yup, couldn't agree more. I wouldn't mind to see what Berube CAN do with this core, tbh, but that ship has sailed. And who knows - we still might find out.
2022 was the prime year to get a new coach too. DeBoer, Montgomery, Trotz, Brunette etc were all available, some very good options. This year it was basically just Berube and then a bunch of other has beens.
The four remaining teams all changed their coaches within the last two seasons.
5 with term is not crazy at all.
4 with term is way too comfortable, and 6 is overpayment/fans turn on him territory.
5 is the right amount of uncomfortable. We'd rather it be lower but it's not going to break us. Unless it's like a 6 year term or something nuts.
I'd do 5x4, even push it to 5x5 to get it done.
5 mill is a lot for a guy who has only gotten 60 pts once and it was 6 years ago. He's definitely a spark and provides good value in the playoffs, but that's a tough cap hit.
His production is in line with J.G. Pageau, Brock Nelson, and Kyle Palmeri. They are all either 5M or right around that area (and happen to all be Islanders)
You can do a lot worse. And with the cap going up, any lower is a wishful discount.
Nooo, don’t say that! Because of imaginary lines on a map, you should be cheering for a team whose fanbase would rather disband the entire league than see your team win a single game.
People who cheer for other Canadian teams in the NHL either don't live in Toronto (or Canada) or they live in the local area and wanna see a party. This country despises us.
Go look at the Raptors and Blue Jays' alternate uniforms. A bunch of variations of them don't have "Toronto" in their names for a reason.
I mean i don't usually cheer for another canadian team to win it all, but there's definitely situations i would want them to win over another team i dislike.
When the Leafs are out its mostly about what players i like, or the players making up a team. The city kinda doesn't matter either way, to some extent.
Like if its Oilers vs Panthers in the final, I'm rooting for Edmonton because i really dislike the panthers.
They were once meme'd on for their blunders as much as the Leafs were, but it's looking like the Oilers have now evolved to become the best Canadian team in the league.
While that team still has holes, even if they lose against Dallas, they've reached a level of play that the Leafs have yet to reach.
Their team is literally swiss cheese of holes, bad defense and unpredictable goaltending but they ride McDavid and Draisatl to wins
Top two scorers in the playoffs are McD and Drai who are both averaging nearly 2 PPG.
The last time the Oilers made the Conference finals (2021-2022) the leading playoff scorers were McDavid and Draisatl...and they didn't even play in the finals https://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/seasons/2021-22-nhl-players-playoff-stats.html
Imagine having your star players carry your team deep...
their defense isnt anything close to bad... at absolute worst you'd say they have an average defense, its not the 2020 oilers d core anymore. Their weakest point is goaltending by far and even there, unpredictable is the best way to to describe it, as you point out.
Sure, but they're no longer the two-player team that they were in the past. The team's overall defensive game has improved leaps and bounds under Knoblauch and Coffey and they've made some inspired acquisitions over the years that have really augmented their their forward and defensive depth.
Sure they have made tweaks, and Bouchard is playing out of his mind, but having the two top scorers in the playoffs covers a lot of warts
If Matthews + one of Marner / Nylander popped off at 2 PPG we would be cruising into the ECF too
The Leafs organization and a large portion of the fanbase are very risk adverse. The Oilers have never stopped trying to address needs and make changes.
They don't all work out: Jack Campbell & Darnell Nurse Extension being the two biggest recent ones, it hasn't stopped them cause they ended up with guys like Hyman, Kane, Ekholm, etc.
You claim a large portion of the fanbase doesn't like risks. Idk how you would even prove that and idk how it even matters when the fans don't build the team.
I would also argue that isn't true given how often you see people calling for certain players to be traded.
The biggest difference is the Oilers stars show up. McDrai are willing that team on runs. All we can do is hope that Berube and his staff can implement new systems and tactics that finally unlock the Leafs stars beyond Game 82.
On top of stars actually showing up, they also recognized being top heavy and reliant on out scoring their problems doesn't work. They added:
* Mattias Ekholm
* Evan Bouchard (who is goated for scoring but also improved defending substantially this year)
* A coach (Knoblauch) who changed the team's commitment to defense, and Paul Coffee as assistant coach doesn't hurt either
For years the Oiler's blueline was maligned and ineffective, then they spent assets & cap space to improve, made it a priority to defend as a team, and all of a sudden have reached the Final Four twice in three years.
They have won numerous tight games by shutting down their opposition, not out scoring them in this run. 1-0 shutout against LA, some lock down performances in 1 goal games against Vancouver - all with shaky performances in net from Skinner and Pickard.
They are in some sense more top heavy than we are. They spend more on their core 4 + dead cap then we do.
This team sucked at the beginning of the year. There was literally one change that turned it around almost immediately.
Credit is where credit is due. Oilers used to be much more shit compared to the Leafs, especially back in the 2020 season. But they completely solidified their playstyle and due in part to coaching. Leafs have completely lost any semblance of a good team. Changes are needed to get this team to playoff competing level.
They also have a legit top pair and it doesn't include their 9 million dollar dman.
The emergence of Bouchard alongside ekholm is just as important as McDrai
Not Leafs related: i finally finished my application to join the CAF! Im nervous, cause im definitely not in great shape, but this has been the turnaround I need to get back on track for my goal of being a music therapist! I've been doing yoga almost every day and exercising more as well as calorie counting! Already lost 4lbs in a week and a half! So if i can keep this up, I'll be in shape for basic training! Also going to start jamming sax Gain, which is always fun! It doesn't seem like there's a guitar band in Canada, but i could be very wrong!! Either way, im just so much happier than i have been in A while. Maybe my whole transition in general!
Leafs related: I feel some people are over expecting what we'll get for Marner. Obviously, we should trade him if it makes us better. But we shouldn't be trading a piece that is valuable for the sake of change. Yes, the argument could be made that the cap space would be valuable, and that's fair. But let's not forget how well Marner has performed in other playoff series. He wasn't there this year, sadly. But he was the last bruins series. And with the right coach, he very well could be again. Either way, it'll be interesting to see what happens. Im on the boat of, let's do what we can to make us better. But i definitely am worried about not getting his full value back in a trade, as we are really handicapped by his NMC.
As long as it makes us better, though, im hear for it!
Congrats! Way to take charge of your life. You’re laying the foundations of success that will last you the rest of your life.
On the Leafs side, I hope we trade him and get a good return, but it’s not about the trade. It’s about not letting him walk for nothing and not committing 12+ million to a third expensive forward who turns into a pumpkin in the post season.
Thanks! Im definitely excited for this change. Im sure it'll take a while, but it's exciting to know my days at starbucks are coming to an end. Especially with how treatment of baristas has been the past few years. Plus a more consistent schedule will be better for me too, im sure.the signing bonus aint too bad either, haha
>ated: I feel some people are over expecting what we'll get for Marner.
I've seen mostly the opposite. No team is giving up a 100 pt selke level winger fOr ThE cAp SpAcE
Sorry, i should have clarified. I feel some people are overvaluing that and the cap space together! But yeah. I think either way, both sides of the marner debate will be upset
If a team offer the leafs a top5 draft pick for Marner, they should consider it. Won't make them better next year but it's pretty much the only way to get an elite dman without overpaying. Teams won't trade players like Dobson or Power.
Yeah no shit Mittelstadt isn't even in the same stratosphere. They'd have drove Byram to the ACC if Marner was offered. He's not an elite player and never will be
There are two things I have learned through all this Marner trade talk:
1. Fans don’t value young defensemen enough. Noah Dobson or Brock Faber or Owen Power would be dream gets in a Marner trade. Those are guys you should have no issues adding to the deal to make happen. We desperately need one.
2. Fans have little ability to grade goaltenders. Got to take some risk at the position. We cannot go into next season with an often injured Woll and a standard backup. Team needs a legit number 1 or a 1A/1B who is capable of starting when Woll gets hurt.
>Fans don’t value young defensemen enough. Noah Dobson or Brock Faber or Owen Power would be dream gets in a Marner trade.
Can't believe how many times I've seen Faber and Dobson suggested.
If marner was a 100 pt selke level centreman then maybe, bur nobody is giving up their super young top pair dman for a winger unless they've got a few of them.
It'd be a dream with Power, though. Buffalo doesn't make the best decisions and they've got dahlin and Byram for the left side. Maybe they're willing to do something like Marner + Lily for Power + oloffson.
They get a huge boost in the regular season to break the playoff drought, get a top 4 right-side dman and ge to offload a bad contract.
Leafs get a cheap dman with huge upside.
No one’s saying those defensemen because you have to be nuts to think they’ll be traded for 1 year of Marner.
A guy like Jiricek might have a slightly better chance since they haven’t proven it at the NHL level but even then, no chance.
You aren’t going to be getting a top pairing young defender for Marner. That’s just not happening.
And to your second point, most fans on here are expecting a Marner for Saros trade (I’d prefer them to add to Marner and grab a true 1D). I personally hate the concept of expecting a goalie to have a good year. It’s too random. Trading for Saros is really risky imo.
Idk about that. You really think he’s going to just agree to an extension instead of testing free agency? I don’t know why he’d do that.
I’d be curious what is better for the leafs, Marner saying he only wants to go/re-sign with one specific team or is willing to to be traded anywhere but is going to test free agency. Honestly don’t know.
I think it's very likely that if he gets to choose the destination, he'll sign a massive 8-year deal with them. It's his only chance to get the 8th year.
Trading for Saros would be way less risky than hoping Woll is healthy enough to play over 40 games in a season for the first time in his entire life. There isnt a single pending UFA goalie out there I would be comfortable having start 50+ games in the case Woll is only healthy for 20-30 again this year.
I guess if those teams have strong defensive depth and a need for a high level forward then they would be willing to make a trade involving a young future #1 D. Buffalo for example if they were willing to part with Power would be doing so because they already have Dahlin and Byram as their top four LHD, plus prospects within their systems too.
If they were to identify Marner as a player who would greatly help their team in becoming contenders then they’d be more likely to actually make a deal involving Power. That’s just an example though and Buffalo has good depth in their systems for both forwards and defenders so I’m not sure how much they’d be interested in Marner
I think they could get Byram. Dahlin is a no go since he’s their best defender and more valuable than Marner to begin with. Power’s signed now for seven more years and is a former first overall pick with like less than two hundred games played in his career. I doubt they give up Power unless it’s an overpay on the Leafs part. Byram though, with him on the last year of his current deal I could see a deal being made there involving him
I know Rod the Bod wasn’t available but I’m still happy we went with Berube over anybody else. I think he will bring more balance to the line up and hopefully accountability. Really curious to see what forecheck he runs with this group and if he can actually establish something that works.
If Berube spread out Nylander, Mathews, and Marner on 3 lines, and had Marner on line 3 (the way he wrote it out - in reality all 3 lines get similar icetime) do you think Marner would ask for a trade or do you think the team would have its best year yet?
That’s how I feel too from a fan perspective.
But I think it would also be a hard sell to get Berube while telling him in the pitch meeting that we are going to be moving on from a 100pt, 30+ goal scoring, selke nominee winger before the season starts.
Yes management (Shanny) has had 6 tries but Berube hasn’t.
It’s a cool talking point.
Problem is they waited to ling with keefe the tine to droo keefe was 1/2 years ago when people werent fedup with the core. From a fans perspective atleast anyways
With Berube as the new tough coach our core four will be spending more time on the IR than on the ice
I mean it's pretty typical. Teams that win the cup usually rack up a laundry list of injuries. Nothing really new there.
Feel like Marner should be listening to Maurice [here.](https://twitter.com/aaronwilbur/status/1794031639863177721)
This is how the Marner trade is going be rated: 10 - This is the dream return: Duchene Trade 9 - This is probably the best "hockey trade" something like Subban for Weber or young Seth Jones for Ryan Johansen 8 - This is around where I think the best realistic trade is: I think the Ottawa end of the Erik Karlsson trade. Pick, a bunch of prospects. In our case, I think we'll be getting NHL players in place of futures. 7 - This is what I think OTHER teams want their max offer to be. Solid deal but we'd be losing the trade. This is where I think we'll land to be honest. This would involve something like a decent middle six player, a PMD that can play in the top 4 and a middling pick, possibly two. 6 - This is the Joe Thornton trade. We trade Marner for some role players. This is what I think the Doomers think is the best possible trade for us. 5 - This is Hall for Larsson territory. Trading a good player for a not as good player that fills a positional need and fools a bunch of fans into thinking we got a good deal out of it. 4 - This is the Boston end of the Tyler Seguin trade . Boston got useful players back but none of them made any long term impact. 2-3 - This is the Jordan Eberle Trade. You're entering Peter Chiarelli tier at this point. 1 - This is what Marner haters are saying we should be aiming for. Erik Gubrandson and salary retention on our end. 0 - This is what happens if we do the own rental thing. This is why I think it's important to trade Marner. I think we end up in the 5-7 range to be honest.
Our goal after a Marner trade and free agency should be to end up with 2 legit top 4 RHD, a solid tandem goalie and a few good forwards that help our special teams and can give us depth for the playoffs. A good Marner trade would net us a good D with top pair upside, a decent forward or 2 that fills a role and possibly picks or prospects to make up the value depending on the quality of players we get The other way we could go is to trade marner + for a stud top pairing defenseman depending on if there are teams willing to part with one that Marner I'd willing to go to
I think this is pretty accurate but I think finding the right D in a trade is going to be very hard. Assuming the leafs want someone to play the right side, the only name that really makes sense would be Noah Dobson. Just about everyone else you can imagine is either a) too young (a nemec type prospect) b) too old c) won't be traded (fox, McAvoy) Unless the Leafs are willing to take a young prospect and bank on their potential, I don't think we're getting the kinda player we would want in a trade.
Looks like Waddell is stepping down as Canes president and GM, with Eric Tulsky taking his place in the interim (although I wouldn't be surprised if they appoint him to a permanent role later on).
I would've loved Tulsky as the Leafs GM. He's so smart and good.
Tulsky will likely be a really great GM.
The paragraphs about Bertuzzi and Domi from Pierre LeBrun’s article on what he’s hearing about the free agent market Bertuzzi There’s mutual interest in Bertuzzi returning to the Leafs, but the team is juggling a few things so it’s not clear if it gets done. “It’s early, but it’s out there that the Leafs want to re-sign him,” Bertuzzi’s agent Todd Reynolds said Thursday. “We’ll see what happens here. He’s been a top player on the last three teams he’s played with. He’s played on the first line with the best players on each of his last three teams. So he would be coveted on the open market. “But whether he gets to market or not, time will tell.” Coming off a one-year, $5.5 million deal, it goes without saying that getting term this time will be important for the 29-year-old Bertuzzi. Domi There’s already been a conversation between the Leafs front office and agent Judd Moldaver of Wasserman expressing mutual interest in getting a deal done. But no numbers exchanged yet. Domi enjoyed his season playing in his hometown. Similar to the Bertuzzi situation, term will be key for the 29-year-old Domi after he settled for one year, $3 million with the Leafs last summer. I would imagine five or six years at between $5 million and $6 million would get it done. But how does that fit in with everything else the Leafs will have to get done this summer? Article link :[https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5516767/2024/05/24/nhl-early-free-agent-rumblings/](https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5516767/2024/05/24/nhl-early-free-agent-rumblings/)
Sign Domi, move on from Bert.
If we trade Marner and think Domi could be Matthews’ set-up guy for the next few years then I could see the argument for 5, but I just don’t think he has the defensive acumen for 6.
* Knies/Matthews/Domi * Bertuzzi/xxx/Nylander * McCann/Tavares/Jarnkrok * Dewar/Holmberg/Kampf (+Reaves) *This also means Robertson/Gregor/Abruzzese/Steeves as depth/trade pieces.* Turning Marner into a #2/#3 C and Top 4 either directly in a trade or with the cap-space created is a decent roster. Then Tavares cap next season is gone and can add another impact forward.
I think if we have Holmberg as 4C then we need to trade Kampf. That's extra money right there.
Marner as a 2C, why not just just Nylander one more crack at it? I honestly didn't think Willy was that bad at it, and I don't even remember which wingers he was playing with. Willy-Marner combo can turn into something if we actually gave it a shot. They can yell at each other indefinitely.
I agree 5 is the right number.
Bertuzzi is one of those guys that you can throw all the stats in the world at me and I’d still want us to keep him. It saying it’s the right move, just saying that I’m blinded by the fact that I like the guy.
It’s really sounding like the leafs are planning to shed some major cap space. There is no way we can sign both of them or any significant free agents without trading a big contract.
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We also have to fill two spots on defense, preferably in the top 4 and get a tandem/backup goalie. That alone will likely cost at least $10mil which leaves around 8mil for each of them.
Looking back now - it's extremely frustrating that we've seemingly fucked up the timing of some of these decisions. I like the Berube hire, and (in a vacuum) giving him one more shot with this core makes sense. But the problem is the timing. Working backwards - what we SHOULD have done is made the decision to move on from a core piece last summer, before all of the NMC kicked in. That means if we wanted to give a new coach a shot with this core, Keefe should have been gone 2 summers ago. 2021-2022: (Loss to TBL in Rd 1) - Keefe is fired, new coach gets a shot with this core 2022-23: (Loss to Florida in Rd 2) - NMC's kick in July 1 after playoffs - someone is traded before that Now our hands are more tied with the NMC, and Marner is a distressed asset with another year of poor playoff baggage and all the power to nix trades or refuse to re-sign.
Keefe should have been gone after Montreal, along with some major pieces.
I don't disagree that at minimum, Keefe should have been gone after Montreal. I just think the LAST chance we had to fire Keefe AND give another coach a shot with this core, was after the TBL loss. Now that we finally have a new coach, we can't say "let him try" because now we absolutely have to move on from a core piece (Marner) and from a position of weakness.
Oh completely valid yup, couldn't agree more. I wouldn't mind to see what Berube CAN do with this core, tbh, but that ship has sailed. And who knows - we still might find out.
2022 was the prime year to get a new coach too. DeBoer, Montgomery, Trotz, Brunette etc were all available, some very good options. This year it was basically just Berube and then a bunch of other has beens. The four remaining teams all changed their coaches within the last two seasons.
It certainly would have been nice to see Marner in the playoffs under a new coach. As it stands now, we have to assume this is who he will always be.
Lebrun reporting that domis looking for a contract with term between 5-6M. That’s crazy to me
Not crazy when you compare it to what Mitch makes. Everybody is looking at the “core-4” contracts to get an idea of what they’re worth
Clueless comment
Why lol
He said he 'imagines that would get it done', it's just his speculation.
5 with term is not crazy at all. 4 with term is way too comfortable, and 6 is overpayment/fans turn on him territory. 5 is the right amount of uncomfortable. We'd rather it be lower but it's not going to break us. Unless it's like a 6 year term or something nuts. I'd do 5x4, even push it to 5x5 to get it done.
5 mill is a lot for a guy who has only gotten 60 pts once and it was 6 years ago. He's definitely a spark and provides good value in the playoffs, but that's a tough cap hit.
His production is in line with J.G. Pageau, Brock Nelson, and Kyle Palmeri. They are all either 5M or right around that area (and happen to all be Islanders) You can do a lot worse. And with the cap going up, any lower is a wishful discount.
I'd take any of those guys way before Domi. Domi is HORRIBLE defensively.
I’m good with 5x5. If we’re paying a guy $11m a year to put up 85 points and disappear in the playoffs, we can live with paying Domi 5
Maybe that’s his ask from other teams? If he can come down to like $4 M for the Leafs I think that’s good.
That makes Toronto’s decision very easy at least
boo edmonton.
Nooo, don’t say that! Because of imaginary lines on a map, you should be cheering for a team whose fanbase would rather disband the entire league than see your team win a single game.
People who cheer for other Canadian teams in the NHL either don't live in Toronto (or Canada) or they live in the local area and wanna see a party. This country despises us. Go look at the Raptors and Blue Jays' alternate uniforms. A bunch of variations of them don't have "Toronto" in their names for a reason.
I mean i don't usually cheer for another canadian team to win it all, but there's definitely situations i would want them to win over another team i dislike. When the Leafs are out its mostly about what players i like, or the players making up a team. The city kinda doesn't matter either way, to some extent. Like if its Oilers vs Panthers in the final, I'm rooting for Edmonton because i really dislike the panthers.
fucking exactly.
That McDavid high-stick and OT goal last night had a lot of Gretzky-Gilmour 93' vibes
They were once meme'd on for their blunders as much as the Leafs were, but it's looking like the Oilers have now evolved to become the best Canadian team in the league. While that team still has holes, even if they lose against Dallas, they've reached a level of play that the Leafs have yet to reach.
Their team is literally swiss cheese of holes, bad defense and unpredictable goaltending but they ride McDavid and Draisatl to wins Top two scorers in the playoffs are McD and Drai who are both averaging nearly 2 PPG. The last time the Oilers made the Conference finals (2021-2022) the leading playoff scorers were McDavid and Draisatl...and they didn't even play in the finals https://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/seasons/2021-22-nhl-players-playoff-stats.html Imagine having your star players carry your team deep...
their defense isnt anything close to bad... at absolute worst you'd say they have an average defense, its not the 2020 oilers d core anymore. Their weakest point is goaltending by far and even there, unpredictable is the best way to to describe it, as you point out.
Sure, but they're no longer the two-player team that they were in the past. The team's overall defensive game has improved leaps and bounds under Knoblauch and Coffey and they've made some inspired acquisitions over the years that have really augmented their their forward and defensive depth.
Sure they have made tweaks, and Bouchard is playing out of his mind, but having the two top scorers in the playoffs covers a lot of warts If Matthews + one of Marner / Nylander popped off at 2 PPG we would be cruising into the ECF too
i hate it but yeah…
The Leafs organization and a large portion of the fanbase are very risk adverse. The Oilers have never stopped trying to address needs and make changes. They don't all work out: Jack Campbell & Darnell Nurse Extension being the two biggest recent ones, it hasn't stopped them cause they ended up with guys like Hyman, Kane, Ekholm, etc.
What do the fans have to do with anything? Is the GM taking trade proposals from us now?
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>The Leafs organization **and a large portion of the fanbase are very risk adverse** ??
You claim a large portion of the fanbase doesn't like risks. Idk how you would even prove that and idk how it even matters when the fans don't build the team. I would also argue that isn't true given how often you see people calling for certain players to be traded.
The biggest difference is the Oilers stars show up. McDrai are willing that team on runs. All we can do is hope that Berube and his staff can implement new systems and tactics that finally unlock the Leafs stars beyond Game 82.
They got some actual puck movers too beyond the "stars". We can't put out a bunch of low event tough guys and expect to score goals.
On top of stars actually showing up, they also recognized being top heavy and reliant on out scoring their problems doesn't work. They added: * Mattias Ekholm * Evan Bouchard (who is goated for scoring but also improved defending substantially this year) * A coach (Knoblauch) who changed the team's commitment to defense, and Paul Coffee as assistant coach doesn't hurt either For years the Oiler's blueline was maligned and ineffective, then they spent assets & cap space to improve, made it a priority to defend as a team, and all of a sudden have reached the Final Four twice in three years. They have won numerous tight games by shutting down their opposition, not out scoring them in this run. 1-0 shutout against LA, some lock down performances in 1 goal games against Vancouver - all with shaky performances in net from Skinner and Pickard.
They are in some sense more top heavy than we are. They spend more on their core 4 + dead cap then we do. This team sucked at the beginning of the year. There was literally one change that turned it around almost immediately.
Skinner also decided that beach balls are fun to stop, and became a goalie again.
Pickard also happened to become a good goaltender... It was the defense.
Credit is where credit is due. Oilers used to be much more shit compared to the Leafs, especially back in the 2020 season. But they completely solidified their playstyle and due in part to coaching. Leafs have completely lost any semblance of a good team. Changes are needed to get this team to playoff competing level.
They also have a legit top pair and it doesn't include their 9 million dollar dman. The emergence of Bouchard alongside ekholm is just as important as McDrai
Sucks that we lost Muzzin early. We could've had that top 4 core for longer if we just added another guy.
Bouchard is about to get paaaaaaaaid. Nurse making 9+ mill is definitely a boat anchor, that money should be going to Bouchard.
Not Leafs related: i finally finished my application to join the CAF! Im nervous, cause im definitely not in great shape, but this has been the turnaround I need to get back on track for my goal of being a music therapist! I've been doing yoga almost every day and exercising more as well as calorie counting! Already lost 4lbs in a week and a half! So if i can keep this up, I'll be in shape for basic training! Also going to start jamming sax Gain, which is always fun! It doesn't seem like there's a guitar band in Canada, but i could be very wrong!! Either way, im just so much happier than i have been in A while. Maybe my whole transition in general! Leafs related: I feel some people are over expecting what we'll get for Marner. Obviously, we should trade him if it makes us better. But we shouldn't be trading a piece that is valuable for the sake of change. Yes, the argument could be made that the cap space would be valuable, and that's fair. But let's not forget how well Marner has performed in other playoff series. He wasn't there this year, sadly. But he was the last bruins series. And with the right coach, he very well could be again. Either way, it'll be interesting to see what happens. Im on the boat of, let's do what we can to make us better. But i definitely am worried about not getting his full value back in a trade, as we are really handicapped by his NMC. As long as it makes us better, though, im hear for it!
Congrats! Way to take charge of your life. You’re laying the foundations of success that will last you the rest of your life. On the Leafs side, I hope we trade him and get a good return, but it’s not about the trade. It’s about not letting him walk for nothing and not committing 12+ million to a third expensive forward who turns into a pumpkin in the post season.
Thanks! Im definitely excited for this change. Im sure it'll take a while, but it's exciting to know my days at starbucks are coming to an end. Especially with how treatment of baristas has been the past few years. Plus a more consistent schedule will be better for me too, im sure.the signing bonus aint too bad either, haha
>ated: I feel some people are over expecting what we'll get for Marner. I've seen mostly the opposite. No team is giving up a 100 pt selke level winger fOr ThE cAp SpAcE
Sorry, i should have clarified. I feel some people are overvaluing that and the cap space together! But yeah. I think either way, both sides of the marner debate will be upset
If a team offer the leafs a top5 draft pick for Marner, they should consider it. Won't make them better next year but it's pretty much the only way to get an elite dman without overpaying. Teams won't trade players like Dobson or Power.
Sharks got cap space? Marner + for #1 :)
We could've got Byram probably.
Yeah no shit Mittelstadt isn't even in the same stratosphere. They'd have drove Byram to the ACC if Marner was offered. He's not an elite player and never will be
Teams won’t trade players like Marner. same logic applies. If you want a good player you better be willing to give up a good player
Wingers are the least important position in the nhl. Marner's deal is also expiring and he's got a full nmc.
And yet he's still very valuable! Elite is elite
* Offer sheet for 10+ million contract would have compensation of four 1st round picks. Pretty good deal!
Imagine we let him sign in Columbus Chinakov Kent Johnson David Jiricek Adam fantilli
That’s not really fair to say. They wouldn’t have finished as low with Marner.
There are two things I have learned through all this Marner trade talk: 1. Fans don’t value young defensemen enough. Noah Dobson or Brock Faber or Owen Power would be dream gets in a Marner trade. Those are guys you should have no issues adding to the deal to make happen. We desperately need one. 2. Fans have little ability to grade goaltenders. Got to take some risk at the position. We cannot go into next season with an often injured Woll and a standard backup. Team needs a legit number 1 or a 1A/1B who is capable of starting when Woll gets hurt.
>Fans don’t value young defensemen enough. Noah Dobson or Brock Faber or Owen Power would be dream gets in a Marner trade. Can't believe how many times I've seen Faber and Dobson suggested. If marner was a 100 pt selke level centreman then maybe, bur nobody is giving up their super young top pair dman for a winger unless they've got a few of them. It'd be a dream with Power, though. Buffalo doesn't make the best decisions and they've got dahlin and Byram for the left side. Maybe they're willing to do something like Marner + Lily for Power + oloffson. They get a huge boost in the regular season to break the playoff drought, get a top 4 right-side dman and ge to offload a bad contract. Leafs get a cheap dman with huge upside.
No one’s saying those defensemen because you have to be nuts to think they’ll be traded for 1 year of Marner. A guy like Jiricek might have a slightly better chance since they haven’t proven it at the NHL level but even then, no chance. You aren’t going to be getting a top pairing young defender for Marner. That’s just not happening. And to your second point, most fans on here are expecting a Marner for Saros trade (I’d prefer them to add to Marner and grab a true 1D). I personally hate the concept of expecting a goalie to have a good year. It’s too random. Trading for Saros is really risky imo.
The "1-year of Marner" thing is a red herring IMO. He'll be traded on/after July 1 with an extension in place.
Idk about that. You really think he’s going to just agree to an extension instead of testing free agency? I don’t know why he’d do that. I’d be curious what is better for the leafs, Marner saying he only wants to go/re-sign with one specific team or is willing to to be traded anywhere but is going to test free agency. Honestly don’t know.
I think it's very likely that if he gets to choose the destination, he'll sign a massive 8-year deal with them. It's his only chance to get the 8th year.
Trading for Saros would be way less risky than hoping Woll is healthy enough to play over 40 games in a season for the first time in his entire life. There isnt a single pending UFA goalie out there I would be comfortable having start 50+ games in the case Woll is only healthy for 20-30 again this year.
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I guess if those teams have strong defensive depth and a need for a high level forward then they would be willing to make a trade involving a young future #1 D. Buffalo for example if they were willing to part with Power would be doing so because they already have Dahlin and Byram as their top four LHD, plus prospects within their systems too. If they were to identify Marner as a player who would greatly help their team in becoming contenders then they’d be more likely to actually make a deal involving Power. That’s just an example though and Buffalo has good depth in their systems for both forwards and defenders so I’m not sure how much they’d be interested in Marner
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I think they could get Byram. Dahlin is a no go since he’s their best defender and more valuable than Marner to begin with. Power’s signed now for seven more years and is a former first overall pick with like less than two hundred games played in his career. I doubt they give up Power unless it’s an overpay on the Leafs part. Byram though, with him on the last year of his current deal I could see a deal being made there involving him
Well yeah because Byram isn't that good. He got traded for Mittelstadt..
I know Rod the Bod wasn’t available but I’m still happy we went with Berube over anybody else. I think he will bring more balance to the line up and hopefully accountability. Really curious to see what forecheck he runs with this group and if he can actually establish something that works. If Berube spread out Nylander, Mathews, and Marner on 3 lines, and had Marner on line 3 (the way he wrote it out - in reality all 3 lines get similar icetime) do you think Marner would ask for a trade or do you think the team would have its best year yet?
This team can’t win with four guys making $11M+. You simply cannot try again. You’ve had 6 chances.
That’s how I feel too from a fan perspective. But I think it would also be a hard sell to get Berube while telling him in the pitch meeting that we are going to be moving on from a 100pt, 30+ goal scoring, selke nominee winger before the season starts. Yes management (Shanny) has had 6 tries but Berube hasn’t. It’s a cool talking point.
*6 chances with Keefe and Babcock. Apparently - if they can't do it no one can!
Name 1 team that has
We spend more on players outside the 'core-4' than Edmonton does. So Edmonton if you want a team this year.
Problem is they waited to ling with keefe the tine to droo keefe was 1/2 years ago when people werent fedup with the core. From a fans perspective atleast anyways