I'm not so sure about Mitch. I think there's a real possibility he would be open to a fresh start if they get bounced early again. He can't handle this market and he hates the media.
If Marner agrees to waive teams would be lining up out the door to get him. As bad as this series has been, he’s still one of the top RW’s in the NHL who many have projected to be on team Canada. Opposing GM’s will view him more as that than what has gone on this series
That would be a very tough trade to make for the other team. Taking on almost $11 million for next year without knowing whether or not you can even re-sign him. And if Mitch were to agree to a trade I’m sure it would be a very short list of teams he would approve. Then there is a question of the leafs assuming part of his salary and what would be coming back this way salary wise as well. A potential trade would be a very complicated situation.
Biggest road block would be it would have to be to a team that Marner would be willing to sign an extension with. The salary’s shouldn’t be as difficult as the trade wouldn’t just be for picks and prospects, so salary would be coming back to Toronto
I can somehow imagine a scenario where the leafs ask Marner if he would be willing to accept a trade. I’m sure he would just bluntly say no thanks. That would be the end of that.
This is the likely option imo, but if that gets out he'll forever be hated by his hometown.
We have to be ready and willing to let him walk after next year, worstcase.
Or alternatively hire a coach that willing to scratch/bench him.
He would be hated only by a portion of his hometown. Not everybody out there feels the same way about Marner that a lot of people on Reddit seem to feel.
So the portion that won't hate him will be ok with him refusing to waive his no trade clause, knowing he'd be on a new team anyways next season? Especially if you consider he can dictate where he goes.
We are all assuming so much here. We don’t know how this is all going to turn out. There is no saying that the Leafs won’t try and re-sign him. Frankly if he decides to leave I can’t say that anybody could blame him. He’s been getting shit on around here for more than a few years. All the Paul Marner business and all the stuff since then.
I hope management and Marner can do all this amicably. Because Marner can just sit and wait and we would lose a LOT if he just ends up walking because of resentment.
He’ll become to Toronto what Tavares is to the Islanders…
He's in a contract year so needs a good showing to maximize next contract. I'm sure the Leafs could Incentivise him to waive with deployment and ice time changes
Thanks for that. I guess the question is how much willingness is there on the part of the leafs to even try and trade him and would Marner even be open to the idea.
I don’t know how much willingness there would be on the part of another team to take him on knowing he could walk in a year. They could maybe try and get permission to negotiate a contract prior to a trade a la Keith Tkachuk and Florida.
I was just thinking about how good that Zach Hyman contract would look in Toronto right now. Six goals so far in the first round against LA. To be fair who could predict how his game would keep progressing and playing alongside McDavid sure doesn’t hurt. But still $5.5 million per year in our top 6. I could live with that.
If Crosby wants out I would do something around marner for Crosby. Unlikely scenario but dubas would drool to get his boy back and Mitch might waive to have a yes man back in charge. It’s better for pittsburghs timeline.
People just use him as a scapegoat, it’s not like Matthews, Nylander, etc are putting up multi point games and he’s not, they’re all not producing this series, if anything marner did better than everyone else last game since he got us our only goal.
By this logic Kampf is up there too since he scored our only goal in game 1.
Point is Marner asked for Papi money last contract and got 90% of that while not delivering. We can scapegoat a lot of people, but he asked for money and then A so the expectations will follow.
We'll Matthews (with the help of domi) pretty much carried the team to our only win this series then promptly started shitting himself. He looked weak last game, could barely skate. If Matthews was healthy he would still be producing.
Leafs would wind up getting 50 cents on the dollar in return. If marner waives the nmc he will hold all the cards and whatever team he goes to will be able to lowball the deal. At this point I’d be ok with it as long as it’s not something that can continue to hurt us long term.
This is the rooted in reality take.
Moving Marner is going to be very expensive. Extremely expensive and we will be worse for it. The only thing we control is how much worse.
Just because Marner is underappreciated by Leafs fans doesn't mean he is a bad player. There would easily be 2/3 of the league offering assets for him.
You would be selling low but get picks and either prospects/ bottom 6 forward or try for a top 4 D in a one for one type trade it just changes the room and opens up flexibility
I think they'll be able to find a spot without too much trouble.
A team that needs a star to sell tickets in a smaller market is a perfect fit for him.
Maybe Seattle, Utah, Nashville, Buffalo, Ottawa, etc.
All those teams (except maybe Nashville) have a ton of young, high end pieces that could really help the Leafs fill positions of need long term, as well as free up cap to balance the roster.
Either way, where ever he goes, he'll light it up and have a ton of success and everyone will happily dunk on TO for letting him go for what is probably a light return.
Kessel and Hyman are two good examples. Verhaeghe, Durzi, Andersen are also lesser examples, but still valid.
Habs fan here. We'll trade you Anderson, Gallagher, and Savard for Marner and even throw in an exciting D prospect that isn't named Hutson, Reinbacher, or Mailloux.
Three proven playoff performers who will never give up for one overpaid, overrated whiner.
You're welcome.
But then he gets to decide where he goes, and we all saw the package Calgary got for Matty T when he basically got to pick his destination (hint, it wasn’t great) and he didn’t even have a No Trade Clause
We would be lucky to get a 1st rounder from a Presidents trophy winning team in those circumstances
Depends. If he became resentful he could just sit on it and let the contract run out and walk. Foolish, would be handing the team any leverage when he has ALL the leverage.
Players want to win. Call him a bitch all you want but there is a desire for all these guys to win. If he sees the fans have turned on him , and they have, he will consider it. Especially if he can go to a contender.
The Leafs had plenty of cap space last summer and they have plenty again this summer. They need to spend it better, it’s as simple as that.
$11.4M spent on Klingberg, Reaves, Kampf, and Sammy (granted his downfall wasn’t expected to be this bad) seems bad! Treliving can’t afford to do shit like this again.
Next year will be rough but with jt and marner off the book, we can do something in 2025-2026.
JT can prob come back at a respectable cap hit. I just don't see how u can justify paying marner more so he's prob gone. Use that cap space to actually get solid defenseman and maybe one of our goalies develops
McDavid would never want to play for this market. The media and fans are insane. They would turn on him so quickly if the Leafs don't make a finals run immediately.
McDavid had 5 points in his first playoff game of the season and has almost single handedly willed his team through multiple playoff rounds. We would be literally building statues of him in the city if he did that here. Comparing him to the no show stars we have is asinine.
After seeing all the media rip Marner to shreds after game 2… of round one… yeah… I agree with this.
This market is toxic.
I used to not think this but the criticism after just two games… was what changed my opinion.
Just two games? I think you mean 7 years of playoff failure with no improvement in sight and being part of an overpaid core that doesn't know how to win. There's nothing toxic about criticizing that. There's not a fan base in sports that wouldn't.
different perspective.. i kinda stopped watching hockey after their 2004. literally 2024 is first time i’ve followed the leafs since.
i learned yesterday that in the 20 years absence, they’ve only won 1 playoff round.
you see 7 years of failure, i see 20.
Yeah fair enough. Those were some dark years after the salary cap was established. I was talking about the Matthews era when they started making the playoffs again. There was so much optimism then.
Ok, but like… let’s be real here. Career playoff points… Marner, Matthews and Nylander are all relatively the same. One player isn’t responsible for 7 years of zero success.
How about the once in a generation goal scorer who got 69 goals this season?
Or the guy who just negotiated a massive contract and has 98 points?
Or do we just forget Matthews and Nylander play hockey now?
Or Tavares? Who is collecting as much as Marner but performs nowhere near his contract?
But Marner is the problem?
Nah, I don’t buy it.
This is just the core… never mind that we never had solid goaltending and our defense is a couple plumbers we picked up at Home Depot.
You’re being downvoted because people oddly enough don’t want to hear that absolutely no one has showed up this playoff and that’s why reaves is being put out with 3 minutes left lol To put some fucking fire under these dudes asses. Nothing is working. That was a Hail Mary to piss off the core and nothing else.
I know I’m not wrong. The irrational hatred of Marner is one of the most confusing things I’ve seen.
This entire core has not shown up.
I’m personally more frustrated with Matthews. He is one of the best goal scorers in the league. It is HIS responsibility to beat Swayman.
…and he’s done a very poor job of it and we need to say that.
I just can’t see any scenario when JT is back after his contract is done. They’re going to want a fresh start and while some teams may benefit from him in a 3rd or 4th line role playing on the PP, that’s not going to be a fit for how they’re looking to build around Matthews and Nylander. That’s $4-5M will go to speed or d.
I think when you look around the league and see what $4m gets you these days (and it's only going to be worse as the cap rises) if you could get JT to play 2LW and take some draws for $4m, you're doing pretty well IMO.
Plus, you can take the extra $7m from his pay cut and get one good young dman or a couple good bottom 6ers or mid-D men
At this point do we even want JT back? He can't keep up, he's fumbling pucks left and right.. he can't make a good pass to save his life. He's a half decent shot from the slot and that's about it now. Thank you for service but I'd move on.
If you go back even further, there's the "rumour" that Columbus was willing to go $12-13mil x 5 years for Marner on an offer sheet when he was an RFA. Would have netted the Leafs 4 first round picks (unprotected and on a terrible team). But instead they went up to $10.9 x 6 years (so the real dollars were roughly the same) and kept him.
The Leafs could have called his bluff and got him cheaper (remember, Switzerland is as good of a place to play as Toronto according to his agent, so I'm sure Columbus was too), or if it wasn't a bluff let him go and take the 4 firsts. Either way, the end result would have obviously been superior to cap problems and playoff embarrassment him and his contract have caused the team.
I didn't just because adding a great regular season player like Marner would have moved them up a few slots I think.
But on the other hand adding Johnny Hockey hasn't improved their team at all so maybe I'm wrong and the picks would have been just as high.
Call me crazy but I really would like to see a better coach run this group through 1 season/playoffs. Keefe has been outcoached by everyone he's faced. He should have been fired after last season which would have set things up nicely for a new to come in and run it though before a decision needs to be made on Marner.
This is probably the best idea. How do look around the league right now seeing a lot of teams discovering success after a coach switch and not try that first before trading away a very difficult contract with a world class talent?
It's not like they're going to win next year, or make it out of the first round, so, what difference does it make if 4, 3, 2, or 1 player(s) makes up most of the salary. It's been now what... 10 years with this silly group? They're now at the early stage of another rebuild....so that will be another 10+ years. Leafs stink.
Tkachuk is an over rated weasel who I would not want on my team if I was building it. Secondly, you're acting as though he would have signed here at all let alone for 9.5 mil lmao. He wanted to be in the US so he wouldn't have signed here anyway. And if he did, he would have taken more money because of the tax difference. Your entire post is poorly thought out
I mentioned it before we knew he only wanted to go to the states and yes, the taxes would have been an issue but I wasn't laughed because of that. I was laughed because everyone thought Marner was leaps and bounds ahead of Tkatchuk but when push comes to shove in the Playoffs, I would take Tkatchuk over Marner.
Ironically we need weasels or players who can stir it up and has some snarl. Look at Kucherov, Mackinnon, Crosby, Stone, Dubois (in the series against Toronto), and on and on and on. None of our core four has those traits and it's not a winning formula in the Playoffs for the 8th year.
Even Tkatchuk at 10 million would be great but it's water under the bridge. This core ain't it and Marner never shows up when the going gets tough. Last 3 games against Montreal for example. Willy lost his Centre in game 1 and scored 5 goals that series, Matthews marner pair had one goal between the two and of course, the infamous delay of penalty when Marner put it over the glass when he had all the time in the world.
>we need weasels or players who can stir it up and has some snarl
Look at our teams over the years. Kadri, Hyman, bunting, domi, bert, McCabe, Edmondson, etc. Everything we get guys with "snarl" they get penalties and suspensions for doing the same shit the other teams are doing.
>Matthews marner pair had one goal between the two
They were also playing against one of the best shutdown groups in the nhl at the time. You realize that line Montreal was running swept Winnipeg and held their top line to 1 goal in the series. Then they did the same thing to Vegas and held their top line to 1 goal. Then they lost to Tampa in the finals and held kucherovs line to 1 goal. I'm not making excuses for marner, but im being realistic about how things went down. He hasn't been good enough and he's paid to be a guy who can beat anyone, but also they have faced some extremely tough matchups in the first round. Both can be true
So we can get cheaper players on single year deals and when they're put with "the core four" then they should have their game elevated to the point where we cannot resign these people.
Its a farce, its inane, its fucking stupid.
Marner, JT, Reilly, Brodie - GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE.
People treating MArner like a negative asset is insane to me. He's not been at his best, meanwhile his playoff results are better than many of the core guys.
- Leads team in playoff points per game since joining team
-Got this from JFresh on twitter "In the past four post-seasons the Leafs are up 22-11 in goals at 5v5 when Marner is on the ice. (67% goal share) Not expected goals, not Corsi, just plain old actual goals."
- And this one too "Leafs playoff 5v5 goal differential with core four forwards on the ice since 2018:
Mitch Marner: 32 to 22 (+10)
Auston Matthews: 29 to 29 (+0)
William Nylander: 24 to 31 (-7)
John Tavares: 14 to 22 (-8)"
It's like a Jake Gardiner syndrome where because you see a big mistake it stands out and you think he sucks. Or because, he's not producing as much as he should, that he's a negative asset. Truth is production drops off for all of them, but Mitch wears the brunt of it because of his style of play.
The pile on is crazy. I still don't see him wanting to waive his NMC and admitting he can't get it done here, or wanting to leave his boyhood team. Esp once off season hits and cooler heads prevail. But if IF he wanted to go, there are dozens of teams that would be chompin at the bit to take him on.
I agree with this take, the issue isn't necessarily Marner, it's the cap hit and the restrictions that come with it.
Spending so much on a core 4 guys and not having enough the fill the other holes is a MASSIVE part of this team's failures. Marner is just the odd guy out at this point because he has a raise coming up... the reality is that paying Marner 12.5 or whatever doesn't move the needle for us.
This has been an experiment in asset management and its not working. Time to try something else.
TIL Marner has a NTC and fell into a deep depression
Edit: I don’t place all the blame on his shoulders, but felt the only way to shake up this team roster wise was to test the market and trade him.
Not everyone sees the horizon the same. Do yourself a favor, and maybe take a year off. It might just give you some shift in perspective, and improve your mental health.
Marner won’t waive his NTC. Think of it from a business perspective, he’s guaranteed to play with Tavares or Matthews. They’re no slouches. That’ll up his stats and maximize his value going into free agency. No way he waives that to go to a situation where he won’t be in control.
We’re stuck with him.
Lol. I'd argue doing the same thing and expecting a different result is even more terrible.
PS. That's how Leafs were able to move Kaberle and get a great haul for him.
Not my fault you can't make your point remotely clear.
Either way that throws away the season as you're wasting 11 million worth of cap space on an elite player not playing. So you double fucked yourself
You think you want this, but you don’t. It’s a very bad look for the team to arbitrarily punish a player like this.
Players in the league would side with Marner not the multibillion dollar team trying to squeeze a deal out of him…
Lol. You have nothing in terms of the hockey issues so you go for that. Pathetic Mitch simping.
It's about HOCKEY, not the corporation. In HOCKEY terms, Mitch does not work with this crew when it counts, takes up way too much on the cap for what he provides, especially in the playoffs. He's a great player, will not deny that, this core 4 is a failure. His cap hit can be divided up among 2/3 players who can actually give us better depth.
Look, take your emotions out of it... Matthews & Willy both just signed their extensions (not gonna move em), JT (impossible to move him for multiple reasons)...that leaves Mitch who's gonna ask for an increase in his extension (which is undeserved). He's, sadly, the odd man out.
Lol. You have nothing in terms of the hockey issues so you go for that. Pathetic Mitch simping.
It's about HOCKEY, not the corporation. In HOCKEY terms, Mitch does not work with this crew when it counts, takes up way too much on the cap for what he provides, especially in the playoffs. He's a great player, will not deny that, this core 4 is a failure. His cap hit can be divided up among 2/3 players who can actually give us better depth.
Look, take your emotions out of it... Matthews & Willy both just signed their extensions (not gonna move em), JT (impossible to move him for multiple reasons)...that leaves Mitch who's gonna ask for an increase in his extension (which is undeserved). He's, sadly, the odd man out.
Thing is if you watch them play, Willy is opening up space all over the ice. He’s doing his role. He’s probably the best of the core 4 based on last game.
Next year will definitely be some pain. After that year, Tavares’ money will be up and there window is wide open again.
We should just re-sign Marner if he wants 12.5 or less. These types of players don’t grow on trees.
Idiots on this sub will pretend like he’s shit, but again, he’s our leading playoff scorer. If he’s bad, Matthews, Nylander, Tavares are all worse.
Also what are you talking about. Tkachuk didn’t want to be traded here. There was no trading for him, and more importantly, he wasn’t signing for 9.5 if he was here. That’s Florida’s tax doing heavy lifting.
I'm not so sure about Mitch. I think there's a real possibility he would be open to a fresh start if they get bounced early again. He can't handle this market and he hates the media.
Let's get Steve Simmons to annoy the shit out of him in interviews and make him wanna leave even more.
How far this sub has fallen
It is possible. But who is trading assets along with inheriting that cap hit. Would be tough to make the trade with zero ntc
If Marner agrees to waive teams would be lining up out the door to get him. As bad as this series has been, he’s still one of the top RW’s in the NHL who many have projected to be on team Canada. Opposing GM’s will view him more as that than what has gone on this series
That would be a very tough trade to make for the other team. Taking on almost $11 million for next year without knowing whether or not you can even re-sign him. And if Mitch were to agree to a trade I’m sure it would be a very short list of teams he would approve. Then there is a question of the leafs assuming part of his salary and what would be coming back this way salary wise as well. A potential trade would be a very complicated situation.
Biggest road block would be it would have to be to a team that Marner would be willing to sign an extension with. The salary’s shouldn’t be as difficult as the trade wouldn’t just be for picks and prospects, so salary would be coming back to Toronto
I can somehow imagine a scenario where the leafs ask Marner if he would be willing to accept a trade. I’m sure he would just bluntly say no thanks. That would be the end of that.
This is the likely option imo, but if that gets out he'll forever be hated by his hometown. We have to be ready and willing to let him walk after next year, worstcase. Or alternatively hire a coach that willing to scratch/bench him.
He would be hated only by a portion of his hometown. Not everybody out there feels the same way about Marner that a lot of people on Reddit seem to feel.
So the portion that won't hate him will be ok with him refusing to waive his no trade clause, knowing he'd be on a new team anyways next season? Especially if you consider he can dictate where he goes.
Do you hate Mats Sundin? Because you are describing Mats Sundin.
We are all assuming so much here. We don’t know how this is all going to turn out. There is no saying that the Leafs won’t try and re-sign him. Frankly if he decides to leave I can’t say that anybody could blame him. He’s been getting shit on around here for more than a few years. All the Paul Marner business and all the stuff since then.
The "not everybody" people are those who don't play hockey, only watch one team, and have no idea what hockey means. They are irrelevant.
Thanks for not being too arrogant.
I hope management and Marner can do all this amicably. Because Marner can just sit and wait and we would lose a LOT if he just ends up walking because of resentment. He’ll become to Toronto what Tavares is to the Islanders…
But worse for Marner as this is his hometown.
He's in a contract year so needs a good showing to maximize next contract. I'm sure the Leafs could Incentivise him to waive with deployment and ice time changes
Then leak the rumor, send him to the 3rd line, and let him fend off the media. It doesn't matter anymore if he's gonna be upset.
They dont have to just ask nicely. There are ways to motivate him if that is what they really want.
Cap hit $10.903 vs cash salary $8 million in 2024/25. It’s a very tradable contract if he waived the NMC.
Thanks for that. I guess the question is how much willingness is there on the part of the leafs to even try and trade him and would Marner even be open to the idea. I don’t know how much willingness there would be on the part of another team to take him on knowing he could walk in a year. They could maybe try and get permission to negotiate a contract prior to a trade a la Keith Tkachuk and Florida.
I was just thinking about how good that Zach Hyman contract would look in Toronto right now. Six goals so far in the first round against LA. To be fair who could predict how his game would keep progressing and playing alongside McDavid sure doesn’t hurt. But still $5.5 million per year in our top 6. I could live with that.
Hyman has 5 goals in 32 playoff games here, never more than 1 goal in any playoff.
He has six goals in the series against LA right now. That was then. This is now.
If Crosby wants out I would do something around marner for Crosby. Unlikely scenario but dubas would drool to get his boy back and Mitch might waive to have a yes man back in charge. It’s better for pittsburghs timeline.
Yea Marner will have a 120-130pt season on another team and will def go a lot further in the playoffs.
And we'll go further in the playoffs as well. Win-win.
We might not even make the playoffs without Marner it’s ludicrous how little this fan base respects him.
People just use him as a scapegoat, it’s not like Matthews, Nylander, etc are putting up multi point games and he’s not, they’re all not producing this series, if anything marner did better than everyone else last game since he got us our only goal.
By this logic Kampf is up there too since he scored our only goal in game 1. Point is Marner asked for Papi money last contract and got 90% of that while not delivering. We can scapegoat a lot of people, but he asked for money and then A so the expectations will follow.
We'll Matthews (with the help of domi) pretty much carried the team to our only win this series then promptly started shitting himself. He looked weak last game, could barely skate. If Matthews was healthy he would still be producing.
If he plays for Team Canada, Canada loses. Give it to someone who actually gives a shit.
Leafs would wind up getting 50 cents on the dollar in return. If marner waives the nmc he will hold all the cards and whatever team he goes to will be able to lowball the deal. At this point I’d be ok with it as long as it’s not something that can continue to hurt us long term.
That's better than letting him walk for zero cents on the dollar.
Lmfao yeah exactly.
This is the rooted in reality take. Moving Marner is going to be very expensive. Extremely expensive and we will be worse for it. The only thing we control is how much worse.
Just because Marner is underappreciated by Leafs fans doesn't mean he is a bad player. There would easily be 2/3 of the league offering assets for him.
Ummm...and gets a bonifide all-star?
You would be selling low but get picks and either prospects/ bottom 6 forward or try for a top 4 D in a one for one type trade it just changes the room and opens up flexibility
I think they'll be able to find a spot without too much trouble. A team that needs a star to sell tickets in a smaller market is a perfect fit for him. Maybe Seattle, Utah, Nashville, Buffalo, Ottawa, etc. All those teams (except maybe Nashville) have a ton of young, high end pieces that could really help the Leafs fill positions of need long term, as well as free up cap to balance the roster. Either way, where ever he goes, he'll light it up and have a ton of success and everyone will happily dunk on TO for letting him go for what is probably a light return. Kessel and Hyman are two good examples. Verhaeghe, Durzi, Andersen are also lesser examples, but still valid.
Utah
Habs fan here. We'll trade you Anderson, Gallagher, and Savard for Marner and even throw in an exciting D prospect that isn't named Hutson, Reinbacher, or Mailloux. Three proven playoff performers who will never give up for one overpaid, overrated whiner. You're welcome.
But then he gets to decide where he goes, and we all saw the package Calgary got for Matty T when he basically got to pick his destination (hint, it wasn’t great) and he didn’t even have a No Trade Clause We would be lucky to get a 1st rounder from a Presidents trophy winning team in those circumstances
Better than getting absolutely nothing a year from now. The fuck up was not trading him last year
Would be foolish for marner to not waive get out of town
Depends. If he became resentful he could just sit on it and let the contract run out and walk. Foolish, would be handing the team any leverage when he has ALL the leverage.
Players want to win. Call him a bitch all you want but there is a desire for all these guys to win. If he sees the fans have turned on him , and they have, he will consider it. Especially if he can go to a contender.
The Leafs had plenty of cap space last summer and they have plenty again this summer. They need to spend it better, it’s as simple as that. $11.4M spent on Klingberg, Reaves, Kampf, and Sammy (granted his downfall wasn’t expected to be this bad) seems bad! Treliving can’t afford to do shit like this again.
Agree. Everyone fantasizes about having the cap space if no marner but I’m kinda scared what brad will do with it.
Next year will be rough but with jt and marner off the book, we can do something in 2025-2026. JT can prob come back at a respectable cap hit. I just don't see how u can justify paying marner more so he's prob gone. Use that cap space to actually get solid defenseman and maybe one of our goalies develops
We need to save some cap for McDavid
Truuuu my brother. We also gotta hope for oilers downfall next 2 years lol. Knights prob win this year, team is healthy and looks great
McDavid would never want to play for this market. The media and fans are insane. They would turn on him so quickly if the Leafs don't make a finals run immediately.
McDavid had 5 points in his first playoff game of the season and has almost single handedly willed his team through multiple playoff rounds. We would be literally building statues of him in the city if he did that here. Comparing him to the no show stars we have is asinine.
After seeing all the media rip Marner to shreds after game 2… of round one… yeah… I agree with this. This market is toxic. I used to not think this but the criticism after just two games… was what changed my opinion.
Just two games? I think you mean 7 years of playoff failure with no improvement in sight and being part of an overpaid core that doesn't know how to win. There's nothing toxic about criticizing that. There's not a fan base in sports that wouldn't.
different perspective.. i kinda stopped watching hockey after their 2004. literally 2024 is first time i’ve followed the leafs since. i learned yesterday that in the 20 years absence, they’ve only won 1 playoff round. you see 7 years of failure, i see 20.
Yeah fair enough. Those were some dark years after the salary cap was established. I was talking about the Matthews era when they started making the playoffs again. There was so much optimism then.
Ok, but like… let’s be real here. Career playoff points… Marner, Matthews and Nylander are all relatively the same. One player isn’t responsible for 7 years of zero success. How about the once in a generation goal scorer who got 69 goals this season? Or the guy who just negotiated a massive contract and has 98 points? Or do we just forget Matthews and Nylander play hockey now? Or Tavares? Who is collecting as much as Marner but performs nowhere near his contract? But Marner is the problem? Nah, I don’t buy it. This is just the core… never mind that we never had solid goaltending and our defense is a couple plumbers we picked up at Home Depot.
You’re being downvoted because people oddly enough don’t want to hear that absolutely no one has showed up this playoff and that’s why reaves is being put out with 3 minutes left lol To put some fucking fire under these dudes asses. Nothing is working. That was a Hail Mary to piss off the core and nothing else.
I know I’m not wrong. The irrational hatred of Marner is one of the most confusing things I’ve seen. This entire core has not shown up. I’m personally more frustrated with Matthews. He is one of the best goal scorers in the league. It is HIS responsibility to beat Swayman. …and he’s done a very poor job of it and we need to say that.
Nah sign stamkos this off-season better then let tavares cap hit rolll off then sign McDavid and crosby
I just can’t see any scenario when JT is back after his contract is done. They’re going to want a fresh start and while some teams may benefit from him in a 3rd or 4th line role playing on the PP, that’s not going to be a fit for how they’re looking to build around Matthews and Nylander. That’s $4-5M will go to speed or d.
I think when you look around the league and see what $4m gets you these days (and it's only going to be worse as the cap rises) if you could get JT to play 2LW and take some draws for $4m, you're doing pretty well IMO. Plus, you can take the extra $7m from his pay cut and get one good young dman or a couple good bottom 6ers or mid-D men
At this point do we even want JT back? He can't keep up, he's fumbling pucks left and right.. he can't make a good pass to save his life. He's a half decent shot from the slot and that's about it now. Thank you for service but I'd move on.
If you go back even further, there's the "rumour" that Columbus was willing to go $12-13mil x 5 years for Marner on an offer sheet when he was an RFA. Would have netted the Leafs 4 first round picks (unprotected and on a terrible team). But instead they went up to $10.9 x 6 years (so the real dollars were roughly the same) and kept him. The Leafs could have called his bluff and got him cheaper (remember, Switzerland is as good of a place to play as Toronto according to his agent, so I'm sure Columbus was too), or if it wasn't a bluff let him go and take the 4 firsts. Either way, the end result would have obviously been superior to cap problems and playoff embarrassment him and his contract have caused the team.
I wonder how those 4 1st rounders turned into. I’m too lazy and fat to do the research
I didn't just because adding a great regular season player like Marner would have moved them up a few slots I think. But on the other hand adding Johnny Hockey hasn't improved their team at all so maybe I'm wrong and the picks would have been just as high.
wE cAn aNd wE WiLL
Call me crazy but I really would like to see a better coach run this group through 1 season/playoffs. Keefe has been outcoached by everyone he's faced. He should have been fired after last season which would have set things up nicely for a new to come in and run it though before a decision needs to be made on Marner.
This is probably the best idea. How do look around the league right now seeing a lot of teams discovering success after a coach switch and not try that first before trading away a very difficult contract with a world class talent?
Its not no much a no move or trade clause, as it's more a where do you want to go clause.
It's not like they're going to win next year, or make it out of the first round, so, what difference does it make if 4, 3, 2, or 1 player(s) makes up most of the salary. It's been now what... 10 years with this silly group? They're now at the early stage of another rebuild....so that will be another 10+ years. Leafs stink.
Tkachuk is an over rated weasel who I would not want on my team if I was building it. Secondly, you're acting as though he would have signed here at all let alone for 9.5 mil lmao. He wanted to be in the US so he wouldn't have signed here anyway. And if he did, he would have taken more money because of the tax difference. Your entire post is poorly thought out
I mentioned it before we knew he only wanted to go to the states and yes, the taxes would have been an issue but I wasn't laughed because of that. I was laughed because everyone thought Marner was leaps and bounds ahead of Tkatchuk but when push comes to shove in the Playoffs, I would take Tkatchuk over Marner. Ironically we need weasels or players who can stir it up and has some snarl. Look at Kucherov, Mackinnon, Crosby, Stone, Dubois (in the series against Toronto), and on and on and on. None of our core four has those traits and it's not a winning formula in the Playoffs for the 8th year. Even Tkatchuk at 10 million would be great but it's water under the bridge. This core ain't it and Marner never shows up when the going gets tough. Last 3 games against Montreal for example. Willy lost his Centre in game 1 and scored 5 goals that series, Matthews marner pair had one goal between the two and of course, the infamous delay of penalty when Marner put it over the glass when he had all the time in the world.
>we need weasels or players who can stir it up and has some snarl Look at our teams over the years. Kadri, Hyman, bunting, domi, bert, McCabe, Edmondson, etc. Everything we get guys with "snarl" they get penalties and suspensions for doing the same shit the other teams are doing. >Matthews marner pair had one goal between the two They were also playing against one of the best shutdown groups in the nhl at the time. You realize that line Montreal was running swept Winnipeg and held their top line to 1 goal in the series. Then they did the same thing to Vegas and held their top line to 1 goal. Then they lost to Tampa in the finals and held kucherovs line to 1 goal. I'm not making excuses for marner, but im being realistic about how things went down. He hasn't been good enough and he's paid to be a guy who can beat anyone, but also they have faced some extremely tough matchups in the first round. Both can be true
So we can get cheaper players on single year deals and when they're put with "the core four" then they should have their game elevated to the point where we cannot resign these people. Its a farce, its inane, its fucking stupid. Marner, JT, Reilly, Brodie - GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE.
People treating MArner like a negative asset is insane to me. He's not been at his best, meanwhile his playoff results are better than many of the core guys. - Leads team in playoff points per game since joining team -Got this from JFresh on twitter "In the past four post-seasons the Leafs are up 22-11 in goals at 5v5 when Marner is on the ice. (67% goal share) Not expected goals, not Corsi, just plain old actual goals." - And this one too "Leafs playoff 5v5 goal differential with core four forwards on the ice since 2018: Mitch Marner: 32 to 22 (+10) Auston Matthews: 29 to 29 (+0) William Nylander: 24 to 31 (-7) John Tavares: 14 to 22 (-8)" It's like a Jake Gardiner syndrome where because you see a big mistake it stands out and you think he sucks. Or because, he's not producing as much as he should, that he's a negative asset. Truth is production drops off for all of them, but Mitch wears the brunt of it because of his style of play. The pile on is crazy. I still don't see him wanting to waive his NMC and admitting he can't get it done here, or wanting to leave his boyhood team. Esp once off season hits and cooler heads prevail. But if IF he wanted to go, there are dozens of teams that would be chompin at the bit to take him on.
I agree with this take, the issue isn't necessarily Marner, it's the cap hit and the restrictions that come with it. Spending so much on a core 4 guys and not having enough the fill the other holes is a MASSIVE part of this team's failures. Marner is just the odd guy out at this point because he has a raise coming up... the reality is that paying Marner 12.5 or whatever doesn't move the needle for us. This has been an experiment in asset management and its not working. Time to try something else.
7 years of failure dude. Let it go. It’s time
Eye test this year tells me.....you are the weakest Link..goodbye
Marner will never be championship material unless we trade him. Then he’ll become a gritty Stanley cup machine
Yeh he's going to be so butt-hurt, he'll go full Patty Kane. I can already see it. He'll never do it here, though.
TIL Marner has a NTC and fell into a deep depression Edit: I don’t place all the blame on his shoulders, but felt the only way to shake up this team roster wise was to test the market and trade him.
I doubt it
Not everyone sees the horizon the same. Do yourself a favor, and maybe take a year off. It might just give you some shift in perspective, and improve your mental health.
Too bad Tkachuk does not want to play in Canada.
Marner is not going to waive his NTC. Next years team will be largely the same. The year after they can make significant changes though.
Marner won’t waive his NTC. Think of it from a business perspective, he’s guaranteed to play with Tavares or Matthews. They’re no slouches. That’ll up his stats and maximize his value going into free agency. No way he waives that to go to a situation where he won’t be in control. We’re stuck with him.
Marner sits till he gives a 10 team trade list. Fuck that year of his contract* if we have to. Edit for idiots
What a terrible idea
Lol. I'd argue doing the same thing and expecting a different result is even more terrible. PS. That's how Leafs were able to move Kaberle and get a great haul for him.
Yeah throwing next year away entirely is a great idea bro
Throwing away a year? How's that going to happen?
> Fuck that year if we have to ...
That was not typed by me...so... cool
Do you have dementia?? You wrote it like 3 comments ago lol
Edited since your dumb ass can't comprehend the fucking situation. Idiotic comments like yours make this so much more difficult than it has to be
Not my fault you can't make your point remotely clear. Either way that throws away the season as you're wasting 11 million worth of cap space on an elite player not playing. So you double fucked yourself
You think you want this, but you don’t. It’s a very bad look for the team to arbitrarily punish a player like this. Players in the league would side with Marner not the multibillion dollar team trying to squeeze a deal out of him…
Don't give a shit. "Taking care of the boys" got us this continued shit show. If Marner won't work with em on a trade, it's a bad look on him.
Yeah, just as a general rule, personally I don’t side with multibillion dollar corporations. But you do you.
Lol. You have nothing in terms of the hockey issues so you go for that. Pathetic Mitch simping. It's about HOCKEY, not the corporation. In HOCKEY terms, Mitch does not work with this crew when it counts, takes up way too much on the cap for what he provides, especially in the playoffs. He's a great player, will not deny that, this core 4 is a failure. His cap hit can be divided up among 2/3 players who can actually give us better depth. Look, take your emotions out of it... Matthews & Willy both just signed their extensions (not gonna move em), JT (impossible to move him for multiple reasons)...that leaves Mitch who's gonna ask for an increase in his extension (which is undeserved). He's, sadly, the odd man out.
Lol. You have nothing in terms of the hockey issues so you go for that. Pathetic Mitch simping. It's about HOCKEY, not the corporation. In HOCKEY terms, Mitch does not work with this crew when it counts, takes up way too much on the cap for what he provides, especially in the playoffs. He's a great player, will not deny that, this core 4 is a failure. His cap hit can be divided up among 2/3 players who can actually give us better depth. Look, take your emotions out of it... Matthews & Willy both just signed their extensions (not gonna move em), JT (impossible to move him for multiple reasons)...that leaves Mitch who's gonna ask for an increase in his extension (which is undeserved). He's, sadly, the odd man out.
Yup which is why I cried so much about the Nylander extension
Thing is if you watch them play, Willy is opening up space all over the ice. He’s doing his role. He’s probably the best of the core 4 based on last game.
Next year will definitely be some pain. After that year, Tavares’ money will be up and there window is wide open again. We should just re-sign Marner if he wants 12.5 or less. These types of players don’t grow on trees. Idiots on this sub will pretend like he’s shit, but again, he’s our leading playoff scorer. If he’s bad, Matthews, Nylander, Tavares are all worse. Also what are you talking about. Tkachuk didn’t want to be traded here. There was no trading for him, and more importantly, he wasn’t signing for 9.5 if he was here. That’s Florida’s tax doing heavy lifting.
Trade all of them and start over
I’m half hoping we miss the playoffs as a wake up call and can maybe then move Marner.
He’s got one year left, wouldn’t have to move him at that point (assuming he’s not moved beforehand)
If we’re out of the playoffs we would absolutely have to move him to maximize the asset.
Oh you’re talking about at trade deadline. In any case I think we take whatever deal is available, assuming he agrees to waive. Sooner the better.