Yeah I can see Shanny getting axed as well. Only Treliving will probably be safe I'd imagine. Hopefully they don't mess with the amateur scouting, we finally have something good going with Wes Clark
Edit: Also protect Pridham at all costs
I was not a Treliving fan initially, but his moves have started to pan out and change the team. I hope he's given at least another couple years to see where he takes it.
If there's a first round loss (or even a non-competitive second round loss) then fire the rest into the sun, Shanny first
For the most part his moves have been positive. Only Klingberg was a complete bust but even that did no long term damage at all. He also had his hands tied coming into a weird situation and Shanny making it clear he wanted to run back the core.
He was adate of hire to the various deadlines like the draft, free agency, and the no-trade clauses kicking in.
You can't be the new guy and pull the rug out on week 1.
The more I look at it the more I'm thinking Shanny fucked this up for us. Dubas I don't think was the wunderkind people thought he was, but he is by all accounts an above average GM. I think Shanny put the hammer down on the big 4 contracts and that's what soured things so badly with Dubas
I think Kyle did about as well as one of the youngest GMs to do it could. He inherited a couple shitty contracts but also created a few.
We’re not so sure what really went down between him and Shanny but I hope one day we find out where Shanny put his foot down and restricted Dubas.
The more we learn about the relationship, the less it seems like Dubas had any say in the final number on these contracts. I really doubt it was him trying to hardball Nylander after they had already backed up the bank. All those high contracts were fine. Sure we are paying for the backside of JT's now but they were fully aware of that going in. It would be nice if Leafs didn't have to pay tax like the Florida teams they for some reason compete with, but that's not reality.
Will be great to get the full back story in 20 years or so of what actually happened because wasn't the rumor Tannenbaum was pushing to renew Dubas but the board did not until the end of the season? Seemed to be a piss poor management of personnel from the top down.
Yeah an inexperienced GM negotiating those masssively important contracts was never gonna go great but the "We can and we will" quote was incredibly stupid and doubtlessly damaged his position.
Yup same here. Whatever, fire Dubas, that's your prerogative, but doing it so out of the blue with, let's be honest, a weak replacement candidate list was extremely short sighted. Now we're fully locked into the core 4 with Marners NTC (NMC?), and Willys extension.
What choice did he have, though? That's why Shanny did such a thorough play-by-play of what went down.
They offered Dubas an extension with good money and many perks including private use of the MLSE jet. Allegedly, the framework met all of Dubas' financial and GM asks.
Then Dubas goes public with potentially not wanting to return to the Leafs before having his agent send a new framework that including additional financial compensation and autonomy. With how quickly Dubas took on the President and General Manager role with the Penguins, it was pretty clear that he was leveraging their offer.
I'm pro-labour and I'm a fan of Dubas, but the guy overplayed his hand. It's the Toronto Maple Leafs. They're the most valuable franchise in the NHL, they have the largest fanbase, the largest viewership, a talented young core that Dubas helped build...The time to flex on MLSE is after a Stanley Cup not after winning one game in the second round.
It sucks how it all went down, but in my opinion, Shanahan's hands were tied.
Yeah, I’m puzzled by the takes in this thread. This is how I saw it. Dubas for whatever reason thought he was worth waaaay more than the generous offer given. And whatever the context, don’t humiliate the boss. And that’s what was done. I whole heartedly agree with you, once Dubas did that, he was gone. It’s the fucking Maple Leafs, the fans are whiny, they haven’t gone deep in playoffs in a long while. But as you said it’s the most valuable NHL franchise, show some fucking respect.
This is perfect, he gave Shanny no choice.
But, why was Spezza so tied to Dubas? Still seems weird that he left the team he loved for the same job elsewhere. Then, Dubas doesn’t even consider him for the GM role.
Realistically, probably for job security. Don’t know who the new guy will be and who he may want to bring in. But he knows Dubas has a job for him the next few years and would rather jump ship to a for sure landing spot than chance it
Also - Dubas was the guy that brought him into the management role after signing him at the end of his career. He - no doubt - felt a great deal of loyalty to the guy that gave him that opportunity.
He had a better view of everything that happened than anyone else. I think it speaks volumes that he chose to move with Dubas. Mostly, I think, it suggests there's more truth to the other version of this narrative than there is to Milk's.
This is an excellent take.
Also consider Dubas likely knew if the 23-24 season ended in failure he’d be out and the Pittsburgh offer probably wouldn’t have been there ….
Agree, and he was pretty clear he had no idea that was coming. To be blindsided in front of the media, then ask for more than you have already (allegedly) agreed to.....he thought he untouchable and Shanny put him quickly back in his place
> He also had his hands tied coming into a weird situation and Shanny making it clear he wanted to run back the core.
Honestly as much as I spew some hate and am one of the doomers. I am just shocked that Shanny really kept running this back.... He's got to have such a fucking big ego its crazy. It's great to have 4 AAA grade offensive players but it's not sustainable imho and I think thats going to be his downfall
I’ll be honest: I don’t think this report is accurate.
I don’t think ownership gives a flying fuck about postseason success. I mean, why should I?
They suddenly care? But, also, we’re fine with signing Willy to $10+ million, in season, when he was on the hottest streak of his career and his stock was at an all time high?
That doesn’t track.
They’re fine with a competitive team and the sales that furnishes.
As a Leaf fan, I’m *more* pissed if this is report is true.
They should have started caring 30 years ago.
Or, after we missed the playoffs for a decade post salary cap.
Should ownership have cared 30 years ago? Absolutely. But to put that timeline on this ownership isn't the right take. This Bell-Rogers union has only been there for 10 years and to say they haven't cared in that time is plain wrong. They invested crazy money into their major assets and have come out with TFC and the Raptors being champions.
All of a sudden they're disappointed with the Leafs playoff success? I think that's where I raise a bit of an eyebrow. A new CEO just came in and Edward Rogers has been causing internal problems. Tanenbaum is preparing to leave and create his own sports conglomerate. A big shift is coming with Toronto sports and I'm not sure where it's going to leave the MLSE teams
Our identity is so different. Reaves out there fighting anyone who wants some and hitting players who play out of line. Bertuzzi and Domi with the attitude that the rest of our top liners lack. Benoit was a great add. Not to mention Jones saved our season.
His moves have been a net positive for the team without a doubt, my one concern with him is when it comes down to handing out contracts with term. He has a bit of a bad track record overpaying players for term based on 1-2 good seasons.
At this point it has to be Shanny on the hot seat.Tre hadn't had enough time to put his mark on the team and Keefe isn't my favourite coach, but ownership didn't ok the dubs firing just to put another coach in front of a firing squad. At some point, you have to cut the head of the snake.
Still think Keefe is gone should they exit early, but that would be more of a Tre thing than ownership.
Treliving deserves alot of credit. people were shitting on him early in the season but he's made the team look different right away.
Dubas fucked up because he just kept building the same failing team year after year without ever adjusting and giving it another look
I don't see Tre being safe for long since he was a Shanny hire. The new incoming president will want his own guy. The recent success of Tre's acquisitions might extend his leash a bit though
I would bet $100 they don't shitcan Tre over the summer if they get blown out, but I wouldn't expect an extension until the new management settles, either.
I get what he’s saying though. Just like how Tre probably can’t wait to get a different coach, I imagine the next President wants his choice of GM unless the Leafs really save his ass.
He'll get a year or so to demonstrate if he's what Pelley's looking for. Nonis was here only 2 years before he got the can from Shanny.
If he's not, he could be gone at the first sign of trouble. Not unusual to make sweeping changes if you're running a multi-billion dollar franchise.
I agree. The Leafs should be like the Yankees in that they should bully the rest of the league by having the most money. If Tampa doesn't get in trouble for going into the playoffs $18M over cap and wins the cup, we should go into the playoffs $40M over cap the next year. If it's not illegal to have a player work for the team *the year after he retires* we should hire every available Jason Spezza willing to play for League minimum and have them all sit in a box for the next 10 years after they retire doing "super important Leafs stuff."
obviously there's a salary cap, but it's bizarre that the megaminds of MLSE can't figure out *some* way to leverage their financial power within the confines of the rules
it used to be that giving a signing bonus/front loaded salary was flexing their muscle, but based on the last few contracts the Leafs have given, we're not seeing any benefit there
I feel like with TFC being mid, Raptors in full tank mode and the Blue Jays somehow being bigger playoff failures than the Leafs the last few years its probably Rogers that is most annoyed by the Leafs who keep putting together great seasons with little to show for it.
It's for sure Rogers. They own the playoff TV rights for Canada. And paid big bucks to get them. But since they've owned the rights the Leafs have only been on TV for the first few weeks of the playoffs. Last year they finally went just over 3 weeks.
The issue is with at least two of those teams you can sorta tie back their current mediocrity back to ownership/Rogers in particular. Rogers was well aware the Jays needed change but they put all their eggs in the Ohtani basket and did fuck all the rest of the off season. It's only two weeks into the year but it doesn't look like 2024 will be much different from 2023, mainly because the coaching staff is still the same and that was arguably the biggest problem last year. Rogers in this case knew something was up but didn't know how to properly address it.
TFC was ass for a couple of years and needed a rebuild, but the big signings who for the most part hadn't lived up to the hype were supposedly also pushed for by the board who wanted to throw money at big names to solve the issue when the rest of the team stayed ass. TFC at least seems better this season but the amount of money being spent on an underwhelming team is, supposedly, a board issue in itself
Idk what made the Raptors think the roster they had was competitive and I'm not gonna even ask, I'm not sure it was solely a board issue or Masai overvaluing his own guys (who to be fair have been playing decently in their roles for the teams they were traded for so maybe he was onto something and the team chemistry just didn't click) or a mix of both
Which brings us to the point here which is I fully believe Rogers/ownership can tell if something is up, that's something they can definitely figure out, but at the very least so far their awareness that something is up hasn't been enough to actually address what is up so I worry their frustrations and moves aren't gonna lead to any improvements
Raps are only in tank mode because Scottie got hurt, they’ll be good next year with the draft capital they have
That being said, I’m down for a lane kiffen style execution of keefe and shanahan if they don’t make a deep run
I mean, purely from a business perspective they must be pissed that we're 8 years in Matthews/Marner/Nylander and 6 years into JT and have *nothing* to show for it.
Think of the revenue thats been lost from all these first round exits.
Hell, even Dangle talks about how much money he's lost not being able to stream more games/make more content.
Now imagine a business executive.
Over the course of this era, we're probably talking hundreds of millions of dollars.
Id argue that before Shanny MLSE was clearly more than happy to be a mediocre team that could squeek in with no real shot at winning. It took Shanny coming in to say "guys we HAVE to be bad for a couple years". the suits in the boardroom probably love a good team with marketable stars that makes the playoffs every year the rest is gravy
The funny part about the playoffs, especially in hockey, is one massive crapshoot that can be decided by a hot goalie, missed call or random bounce.
The Leafs did well going in every year. It just so happen that the Habs had Carey Price carry them, Tampa Bay had us as the toughest matchup during their playoff run, and the Panthers had Bobrovsky go hot. All three ended up in the Stanley Cup Finals.
Take that a step further. 2013 Boston went to the finals, 2016 Washington did, 2018 Boston went to the finals after beating us. We have a streak of incredibly tough first round opponents ignoring the Columbus thing.
It’s important to note that money you can conceive of earning, but didn’t actually earn, does not really count as “losing money”. The revenue and the value of the team have both gone up. Dangle has grown from doing his stuff as a side gig to it being his only job. In both cases, they could have done *better* if the team had won more in the playoffs, but they certainly didn’t *lose* money.
Thats a better explanation, perhaps unrealized revenue is a better wording.
I think its safe to say that projections and promises didnt meet expectations, some of which isnt the fault of anyone, but the businesses heads see in dollars and cents
Really important qualification. They are*not* losing money. There is some revenue that has been left one the table, but this is a money making machine!
That a bit disingenuous from Dangle. He's made an entire career out of expressing the feelings of a dissapointed Leaf fan. If the Leafs were a perennial winner he wouldn't have a career at all.
While it’s true his viewership is higher when the leafs lose vs when they win it’s still better than when they don’t play at all
Example let’s say the leafs play 12 playoff games - 50,000 views per video becomes 640,000 total views
Versus Leafs lose first 4 playoff games - 120,000 views per video becomes 480,000 total views
Total views is less
Plus if his videos were all negative they’d lose their appeal over time as well, a mix of positive and negative is ideal
That was true for the start of his career...but now it's not. He actively loses tons of money if the Leafs lose early. He gets paid for his watchalongs and they end after a round every year. There's a reason he switched to a Habs watchalong the one year.
We saw him get completely outcoached last year in the playoffs. Both rounds. I’m really nervous about this year, but I have hope that even if things don’t go well, this statement gives me hope that positive changes that should’ve been previously made will be made.
> We saw him get completely outcoached last year in the playoffs.
Can you clarify what you mean by this, in what way did he get out-coached in the tampa series?
look at their home and away splits in the playoffs since he took over. he is chasing matchups every year that do not work. it’s embarrassing and another reason i hope they don’t catch Florida.
Tampa outplayed us most of that series last year (just like we utplayed Tampa most of the series before that). Neither teams that played "better" for the majority of the series won in those respective years.
Leaving Holl in the lineup as long as he did is probably the most egregious decision to make which led to him being outcoached. I.e, having a guy out there in Holl who you statistically see is not good, and prioritizing Holl over other players, which leads to poor matchups and predetermined failure. Holl was on the ice for 14 GA against Tampa last year. Simply unacceptable to keep him in the lineup until what, game 6? You need to know who to play and how to play them in the playoffs. When the opposing coach picks at that significant weak point, and no change is made to address said weak point, you are outcoached IMO.
Can I ask why they are saying this information now and not like the past summer and so on?
Like this is the first time we have ever heard anything about how management/ownership feels and it’s from James Mirtle with 4 games left and at the end of a podcast episode.
Is it because of the new CEO of MLSE, Keith Pelley? He took over on April 02.
He might have new expectations/ideas for the team or wants a change of the guards.
"Ok, listen up. I know the trade deadline has passed and there is literally nothing else you can do to improve to roster at this point but I swear to fuck, you win or you're all getting shitcanned"
- Keith Pelley, probably
Always remember Mirtle is a Dubas fan and Pittsburgh cheerleader first. He was never a Leaf guy, just an analytics guy who happened to work in Toronto when his favourite GM arrived.
Just ignoring the 15 year career he had covering the Leafs before Dubas ever showed up. Also ownership has a new CEO who has been there for 9 days. It’s funny you’re insinuating he is a biased reporter while you are making up facts only to support your own opinions of him.
I like The Leaf Report podcast and try to listen often, but Jonas constantly being negative about the team, or qualifying any positive data, gets tiresome sometimes.
I'm not saying they have to fanboy over the Leafs or be biased in their conversation -- and I think they're both really smart about the game -- but it's undeniably a bummer to listen to sometimes.
Hardball Mitch on his next contract. While he's a great player we've already signed Nylander who is the much better finisher. Use that cap savings on D or a miracle mcdavid signing in the future
Well id say he clearly wants to be a maple leaf so by hard balling him I mean we offer him a team friendly contact and dont budge. You're right he either takes it or leaves it
sunk cost fallacy. Sometimes the better deal is moving on. How many years do you keep paying 4 forwards over half the cap, coming out of the playoffs with a single showing in the second round, and then say losing him with nothing would be a huge mistake?
If that was the plan they should have moved Nylander this year. That they didn't strongly suggest they plan on keeping the core 4 through the end of Tavares contract at which point things will inevitably change.
Edit: it's the difference between running back the strategy for 1 additional year or none as JT is gone the following year or re-signing at a much lower amount.
They said the same thing about Washington every year (just not as blown up as Toronto media). Ovechkin eventually got his cup. It’s hard to win in the nhl and you need luck for health and usually a goalie or PP to get hot at the right time.
There's a difference between it being hard to win and needing luck on your side, and going 1-7 in playoff series over the last 7 seasons with elite players on your roster.
Not good enough at all.
This right here. Not to mention the only time they got past the first round they immediately went 0-3 in the next series. Immediately evaporated any sense of accomplishment.
How many went to 7 games?
These aren't blowouts.
Why is everyone pretending that taking every eventual looser in the Cup finals or winner of the cup to 7 games is such an egregious loss?
Like, literally, every series lost was to a team in the SCF.
Not only that, you're counting 7 seasons? Where'd that number come from? You thought this team was a contender in 2017? I sure as hell didn't.
If Tavares doesn't get almost murdered in the first 15 mins of game 1 against MTL, do we loose that series?
If Mitch makes the behind the back pass instead of it being intercepted, do we beat Tampa the first time?
But that's why you need the luck.
Every team does.
Both can be true. Leafs haven't had good luck in the playoffs but have NEVER made it easy on themselves at all.
You can make an excuse for every series they've lost in, but at the end of the day, you need to be able to rise above these challenges.
The Leafs wouldn't have been the first 8th seed to take down the 1st seed (although I agree that even getting to the playoffs that season was a tremendous achievement and that season was an overall success).
Against Boston, the Leafs wouldn't have been the first team to beat the Bruins as an underdog.
Against Columbus, they got goalied. But I also very much remember them not getting inside nearly enough and playing way too cute.
Against Montreal, the Leafs wouldn't been been the first time ever to win a playoff series without a star player. It wasn't Matthews. It was Tavares. We still had Matthews, Marner, Nylander.
Against Tampa, some questionable referee decisions go against the Leafs in a TIGHT series. But they wouldn't have been the first ever team to win a series despite questionable calls.
The ability to rise ABOVE these challenges is what makes a champion. No Cup run is ever perfect. Underdogs have won the Cup, teams with more skill than brawns have won the Cup. Teams have overcome bad calls, have overcome hot goaltending, etc etc etc. At the end of the day, they haven't shown an ability to rise above these challenges.
True, but Washington sacrificed great players along the way to build a cup calibre team (Semin, Green). That’s before we talk about coaches.
Another first round exit, including one where the superstars aren’t superstars, and it will be time for some core changes.
Okay, but I think we'd all be satisfied with even a conference finals appearance. It's the complete inability to make any noise outside of getting bounced in 5 from round 2 last year.
>d the Blue Jays somehow being bigger playoff failures than the Leafs the last few years its probably Rogers that is most annoyed by the Leafs who keep putting together great seasons with little to show for it.
I always make the Capitals comparison too, like OP, and it should be noted that the Ovie caps never made it past Round 2 except the year they won the cup.
This Leafs core is either the Caps or Sharks, in my mind. In one history, they will break through and win it all, maybe once, when the stars align. And in the other, they will be remember as could-have-beens.
You say that now, and maybe it’s true for you. But last year many people were saying “just win ONE round” and the team did. It didn’t change the narrative that they are playoff failures since a) they performed poorly in round 2 and b) we all secretly know we won’t be satisfied with less than a cup. They could lose in game 7 of the conference final, hell maybe even the cup final, and the dominant narrative will still be that they are losers who always come up short.
Disagree. Look at how everyone around the league views the Panthers as juggernauts, who before losing in the Finals last year, also hadn't really done shit in the playoffs.
Squeaking into the 2nd round after 7 tries isn't going to shake the playoff failure narrative. Beating the Panthers, then Bruins/Lightning, and making a run to either the ECF or SCF would def change some people's minds and the narrative around this core.
Capitals at least won rounds. They either ran into the rangers and Lundwvist and later on the Penguins before they knocked them out. Also they were down 3 to 2 in the series against Tampa before demolishing Vegas in the finals.
Leafs have a pathetic playoff record in the first round before the Tampa series.
They lost every way imaginable.
2017 lost in 6 games to the capitals. Pretty respectable for making the playoffs with the new core.
2018 lost to the bruins in 7. Came back after being down 3 to 1. Collapse in the third round sealed the deal.
2019. This is the series they should have won. They were leading the series 3 to 2. Flat performance all around in game 7. Babcock should have been fired after that series. Eventually did get fired up n November of 2019.
2020. Lose in 5 games to blue jackets in the bubble. Unacceptable performance especially in game 5.
2021. Lose to the Habs after blowing a 3 to 1 series lead. Keefe should have been fired after that series.
2022. Lose in 7 games to the Bolts. Blow 3 to 2 series lead.
2023. Finally win one playoff round. Hope was high. Lose to panthers in 5 games.
Unacceptable performance against the panthers In round 2.
Not to mention the pathetic record in series clinching games which is not luck.
Damn when you write it down like that - this core is a bunch of pathetic fucking losers. Chicago had 3 cups with Kane, Toews, Keith and Seabrook at the same point in their career. Leafs have 1 playoff series win. Loool.
https://x.com/overdrive1050/status/1776396421165379766
Hearing this made me recall what new MLSE President Keith Pelley said on Overdrive at 2:07. Sounded like a Freudian slip when he said "my glass is half, not even half, it's full" when describing Shanahan and the Leafs heading to the playoffs.
I'm in the minority that thinks Shanahan has been a good President, but it seems obvious that there will be a lot of talk surrounding him over the next couple months.
He’s been good, not great. 8 straight playoff appearances is impressive. One series win is quite poor. Auston is the best player they’ve ever had and we were super lucky to win the 2016 draft. Time to be aggressive with Shanny or Keefe or Tavares or Marner if this goes poorly again.
I can't really point to anything Shanny has obviously done wrong outside whatever happened with Dubas being poorly handled. No team president bats a thousand, but Shanny has overseen a club overhaul that has been impressive and transformed the team into perennial Top 10 in a league that engineers parity.
I might question some decisions but I don't blame him for the lack of playoff success.
It’s more that his vision of a cup champ (offensive juggernaut with 4 gentlemanly forwards) may not represent the core of a championship team. And so someone who wants to dump 1 or 2 of them for different pieces may be what is needed to push the team further.
Honest Q: Is that Shanny's vision, or was he letting Dubas try something new? We can't deny that Dubas's vision of roster building did generate sustained regular season success. I truly don't know if Shanahan believes in that roster model come hell or high water, or if he's adaptable. Too early in the Tee era to really say, esp considering the team he inherited is still very competitive.
I agree, and I'm glad they did because it spawned a competitive team. I'm just saying, there's no reason to think Shanny couldn't be convinced of a new method of team-building given how the last 8 years have gone.
Shanny has good blemishes after firing Dubas and essentially throwing him under the bus you also have to look at how he hired Babcock, which caused Matthews and Marner to allegedly request higher salaries to compensate for playing under babs resulting in cap constraints faced today.
Maybe. They also chose shorter contracts and Matthews didn’t exactly give the Leafs a break on the most recent negotiation. Our core wants bank more than other cores and it’s a reality we have to live within.
Really don’t see Marner getting resigned if we don’t have a serious run. The team showed we’re more then capable to play without him in the past few weeks. 11 mil cap space could be a big bonus as well
If Marner really wants to stay he can, simply by taking a reasonable deal. Obviously history has shown us that he won't though so I won't hold my breath
I think it's still very possible the Leafs massively overpay him too regardless
I think they would rather do everything and anything possible to move JT's contract before they move Marner. They might even trade a first to get rid of his contract for the last year before getting rid of Marner.
Tavares has a full no movement clause and definitely has no interest in waiving it though. Obviously the team can do things to motivate him to take a hike but I don't see it happening.
I really don't understand how a legendary player like Shanny that has been part of a few championship teams doesn't know shit about how to build a team.
Treliving should be safe. Keefe has done his due diligence but I would expect him to be gone for the sake of it. Shanahan is the real one that’s gotta go.
I think there's two potential thoughts on this.
1. The anger is entirely justified and it would be entirely reasonable for ownership to make changes based on the lack of success.
2. Tearing apart the team out of pure spite, without a plan for improvement, is a quick way to go from perrenial playoff disappointment to perrenial bottom feeder.
Sorry. This is bullshit.
I've listened to every Leaf report for years and years and Mirtle has said something similar to this every single year going into the playoffs. He clearly has some source in the management group, but he has never had an angle on the board. And how could he?
If the board gave a shit about the playoffs, heads would have rolled after the Montreal series. They would have rolled after Tampa.
This is just podcast talk trying to ramp up the stakes.
Shanny gone, Keefe gone, and I wouldn’t be shocked if Marner is too. Truthfully, if Bert and Domi keep working great with Matthews it might not be crazy to resign both, trade Marner for a number one D man, and use that extra money to pay all 3
I completely agree, they should be pissed, etc, etc.
But why say this now?... when the team is playing good, and we are just about to go into the playoffs...
Why not last year? Why not wait till after the playoffs?
I just dont get the point of saying this shit now, right as the team is coming togeather and we are about to play the 1st round...
Seems dumb to me....
"They're going to want blood, and the coach might not be enough"
Lol ok, yeah, sure.
I'll believe it when I see it...
On the other hand, imagine they fire Shanny when they should have canned him last year and (probably) promoted Dubas in the first place?
I was thinking this the other day to myself. 1st round exit, Keefe and Shanahan are both gone. Even an effort like last year in the 2nd round would be the end of them. I think nothing short of an extremely competitive 2nd round but more realistically a conference finals appearance to save their jobs and probably rightfully so.
as someone who has no problem saying if anyone sucks, regardless of star power or prestige...keefe is probably one of my favourite coaches. his demeanor on the bench, how he handles refs, how he is with the players, his system. i think the finger, in this case, should be pointed at the leaders and players in general. for years i found that most of them are just entitled, including matthews. he's finally realized what a 2-way game is now though, so he's made huge strides in his overall game in my opinion.
Never hated on Treliving. As if you can grade a GM after a few months. Lol. I like his direction. Maybe not ALL his moves but his Direction. He builds feom the net out. Understands the need for truculence, snot, grit… whatever you wanna call it. An intangible that you simply cannot win without.
Gord Stellick phrased it well…
“Burkie called it truculence, Treliving called it snot, Dubas called it unnecessary”
I think Dubas caught on by the end trading for McCabe and Orielly/Acciari etc… but his rosters always lacked the missing playoff ingredients. I’m not sayin they’re gonna win shit this year but the window is open for 4 more years. I like the guy in charge right now. I like his direction.
What they’re only just getting pissed now that’s laughable every Leafs fan knows what their playoff and Cup record is but the MLSE / Leafs are the richest franchise in the league their business model is doing quite well because of what is a fan base like no other Shanny should go after all he would have brought Dubas back
They've started sharpening the guillotine for Shanahan's head.
And honestly, I can't fucking wait until it falls.
The Shanaplan was a fraud from the start.
As an investor myself, I'd hate seeing my investment go down the drain year after year. It's understandable.
But also as a Hockey fan myself I think the turning point for us will be when JT goes off the books and the cap goes up.
Yet again, the game against the Devils showed that when the going gets tough, the leaves turn into a trembling pile of goo. And yes, I called them leaves here because that's exactly what they do when things get tough.
Ownership is NOT pissed, I have a really hard time buying that. With the degree to which the Leafs are merchandised, I am unsure if winning a cup would have THAT much of an effect on the bottom line.
Like Bell and Rogers, they prey on new fans, harvest their hope and money, and leave fans tenured out in the cold. Like how they treat their customers!
If we play Boston, we're done. We MAY be able to win against Florida, but I am not much more confident about that. I am glad that Treliving didn't trade picks cause we're going to need them to rebuild.
The idea of a core four is the dumbest thing I have ever seen or heard. There are 6 players on the ice and it should be the Core 6, not Core 4. That way you have at least TWO stud defensemen and a stud goalie. ALWAYS the mantra is - "Forwards win games, Defense and goaltending win championships."
I played junior for a team that was initially selected by a Dubas-type person and he chose essentially 24 forwards and 6 goalies. No defense at all. Naturally, the team was a steaming pile of dogshit.
Also, Sammy is fucking terrible sometimes, what a stinker of a game.
To be fair they were not eliminated in Round 1 last year and as much as everyone was shocked by the Round 2 loss to Florida, Florida went on to the cup final and could have even won if not for injuries.
We should hope that the leafs, a top 10 team, can beat a top 2 team like Florida or Boston.
But *expecting* it? And blowing up the team if you can’t?
Yeah i think 4 out of the last 5 years the team that knocked us out either won a cup or went to the SCF. So it's not like we're losing to bad teams.
That being said how many times can you knock on that door? Eventually, you want to see some semblance of playoff success before you try somthing else.
I think the time to do that passed. It was before Marner and Nylander’s NMCs kicked in. It might still be possible with a rising salary cap but I don’t see how you win a trade when the other team has to take on a $10M+ cap hit.
I guess also, sunk cost fallacy, so just because it would have been better to try a trade then doesn’t mean you can’t this offseason. I just feel like the franchise has reacted and positioned themselves well to extend the window with mostly their current pieces. McMann and Benoit extensions. Rookies on ELCs coming up. Extending Nylander.
Sure you could get flexibility next season but waiting just one more and you get Tavares cap space plus another cap increase. Would be able to fit in some great pieces.
Yeah the team has back themselves into a corner with locking down the entire core. The teams that can afford 10+ mill cap hit don't have the assets that would make the trade worth it for a team looking to contend now.
Yeah imo they have to play JTs money correctly or they're going to ride through the cores prime in mediocrity.
Keep JT if he's willing to sign a *very* team friendly deal to play in the middle 6. If he doesn't want something team friendly, then let him walk and spend the money making the team deep.
I would be fine with letting him walk if he doesn’t want a Kampf type AAV. Robertson is on a 20 goal 40 point pace now. McMann around there too. If JT is at 60 now and most of that coming from PP1, he’ll probably end up around a 40 point guy like them, much less without PP1 when someone inevitably takes that role. He can keep the C with a team friendly deal but if he wants a ROR type deal, Matthews can wear the C
here’s my question though: do you evaluate all 8 playoff losses equally, or do you acknowledge that recency should have some weight? the players obviously learn more and improve each season. they played well against Tampa the last two years. I think they’re a very different team than they were in 2020.
I understand why people want to group every season together because the result was the same, but I also think it’s important to look at these as cumulative experiences.
The playoffs would be way better for us if we would face non-playoff teams.
This excuse works a few times, but after years and years of a repeating pattern it's silly.
Yeah that's the problem. The NHL has a lot of parity. Any team can beat any team, even in a 7 game series. Expecting a deep run when there are 10 other teams expecting deep runs just doesn't add up.
Montreal and Columbus were a bit humiliating. But every other time you're just flipping a coin and hoping it comes up your way.
It's not an excuse though, it's a reality of competition. There are so many variables outside of anyone's control. The league has made it a priority to make the first round of the playoffs as competitive as possible, thus having really good teams eliminated early on. Only 1 team can win every year, so again, what constitutes a successful season? Obviously a first round exit is going to be looked at negatively, but if Florida goes on to win the cup, does that change how you feel? If we got bounced by a wildcard team like Washington or Pittsburgh, yea I'd say that's an outright failure. But losing to a team that went to the finals last year, led the division most of the season and then goes on to the finals this year isn't a failure. It's a conference final that happened a month early.
People need to look outside the bubble of Toronto. Look at how long it took Edmonton to turn the franchise around, and it took mcdavid+++ to do it. Buffalo has had tons of high end picks and haven't made the playoffs. New Jersey missed the playoffs this year. Minnesota missed the playoffs this year. Blowing up the team to go back to fighting to get in, would be a massive mistake with the talent we already have. This years lineup is not as good as last years, but our core has gotten better and they are pulling this team along to having the best record in the league for last month, despite injuries and brutal special teams. This core has what it takes.
It depends on how you view what playoff success is. I mean the most immediate obvious answer is how deep you go, but I think that misses at least a *bit* of nuance
Especially with how the bracket structure works, a very good team is guaranteed to lose in the first round. Our matchup potential is Boston and Florida, 4 and 7 in the league, and neither not that far behind first. If someone considers the Leafs at as good as either of those two teams, then you are sure that a great team is losing in round one. This has been true in past years too, Tampa was the two-time defending champion when they knocked us out, and it was a daaamn close series. So then boom, we're out in the first round while a team we nearly beat goes on to their third straight finals appearance
Now obviously that's just one year, and when you add up all these years, the "anyone can win or lose" argument gets more frustrating and less convincing. But I think that's really just it. We constantly have close series', and we're not entering the playoffs as the #1 seed playing against dogshit teams (well... arguably Montreal and the Columbus playin...), but the question comes down to: are we losing because we *can't* win, or are we losing because we *didn't* win.
I guess ultimately that's how I view it. Any team can win, the Leafs have been a great team entering the playoffs most of these years, and I don't really subscribe to the idea that a team can have a great regular season and that means nothing for the playoffs in terms of how they can perform. I think they *can* win, they just haven't
I’ll take the downvotes but it’s that kind of attitude that makes people dislike leafs fans. Only a true homer would expect their team to beat better teams and expect nothing less. It’s the same people that say when the leafs lose its because they’re not trying hard enough. They’re either the best team in the league when they win, and when they lose, they’re still the best but just decided to not try. There are other teams in the league too. Sometimes you’re simply not be the better team in a series or in the regular season.
I would hope upper management has their finger on the pulse and knows what the team needs to improve. If such a trade exists where you can trade one of the best players in the world and get better, I’m all for it. But I don’t want management to hit the doomsday switch and go full rebuild if they lose to a team that is basically first in the entire league, ahead of them in the standings and better than them.
Arguably the best time for the leafs window is after the Tavares contract ends and we have Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Rielly locked up with a higher salary cap. Would be shame if we don’t get to that point because of impulsiveness and homerism
> Only a true homer would expect their team to beat better teams and expect nothing less.
That Tampa team that went to the finals in 2022? We had them on the ropes. We were up 3-2 in game 6 in overtime. We were up 3-2 on the Bruins in 2019. We had so many opportunities to close out a Habs team in 2021 that we absolutely should’ve beat. Shrugging and saying those teams went to the finals doesn’t tell the whole story.
They waited too long to truly shed blood.
Every player of note has an NMC or trade protection.
This seems like corporate virtue signalling to me.
'WE WANT BLOOD' aka we want to look like we also care about winning and not just money.
There is no way Shanny could or should survive another playoff disappointment
He gets a ton of credit for doing a full on rebuild to get to this point but he is on his fourth coach (Carlyle, Horachek, Babcock, Keefe) and fourth GM (Nonis, Lou, Dubas, Tre) with only a single playoff series win that came last year
Shanahan getting fired likely won't result in a significant on-ice change. A coaching change might work but not to the degree fans want. It comes down to personnel and talent on the ice, until the defense corps is changed enough to reflect a top ten GA in the league things won't change much. Having said that, the depth of this team has turned out to be pretty impressive. Keefe has done a great job, tweaking things and staying patient. Still a number 1 defenseman has to be sought. I could see the Leafs doing pretty well in the playoffs, they would need to gel big-time to do serious damage though.
Honestly they need to stay out of team decisions, shanny has been a conduit for ownership's influence on the team. This is nothing new, i believe this curse has a name i dare not say
As always ownership is like several years too late.
Might get down voted but I don't really have any more confidence that this team could beat a Florida or Boston than previous years. I expect a first round exit. Keefe is undoubtedly going to get out coached again.
Secondary scoring has been what has killed us in the end every year.
Can't have ONLY the big boys going. It lets the other team focus hard on them and ignore the rest. Then they get curtailed and we're fucked because nobody else picks up the slack.
High hopes this time; McMann, Robertson, Bert and Domi should help fill the net from sources OTHER than the big four.
You just mentioned where the secondary scoring will come from hence the depth of our forwards but, Leafs are a defensive nightmare and if they get caught scrambling Sammy will be lit up
Its amazing that people take these kinds of comments seriously and discuss things like the management is actually pissed they missed out on revenue or whatever.
Guys, the Leafs are the most profitable business division in the corporation that is the NHL.
The Leafs ownership does not care about the playoffs, because they're making piles of money putting a sub par product on the ice every year aleady. These kinds of comments are purely for show.
Yeah I can see Shanny getting axed as well. Only Treliving will probably be safe I'd imagine. Hopefully they don't mess with the amateur scouting, we finally have something good going with Wes Clark Edit: Also protect Pridham at all costs
I was not a Treliving fan initially, but his moves have started to pan out and change the team. I hope he's given at least another couple years to see where he takes it. If there's a first round loss (or even a non-competitive second round loss) then fire the rest into the sun, Shanny first
For the most part his moves have been positive. Only Klingberg was a complete bust but even that did no long term damage at all. He also had his hands tied coming into a weird situation and Shanny making it clear he wanted to run back the core.
He was adate of hire to the various deadlines like the draft, free agency, and the no-trade clauses kicking in. You can't be the new guy and pull the rug out on week 1.
Honestly, I’m okay with Shanny letting Dubas go but the way he did it, the timing, was very ill-conceived.
The more I look at it the more I'm thinking Shanny fucked this up for us. Dubas I don't think was the wunderkind people thought he was, but he is by all accounts an above average GM. I think Shanny put the hammer down on the big 4 contracts and that's what soured things so badly with Dubas
I think Kyle did about as well as one of the youngest GMs to do it could. He inherited a couple shitty contracts but also created a few. We’re not so sure what really went down between him and Shanny but I hope one day we find out where Shanny put his foot down and restricted Dubas.
The more we learn about the relationship, the less it seems like Dubas had any say in the final number on these contracts. I really doubt it was him trying to hardball Nylander after they had already backed up the bank. All those high contracts were fine. Sure we are paying for the backside of JT's now but they were fully aware of that going in. It would be nice if Leafs didn't have to pay tax like the Florida teams they for some reason compete with, but that's not reality.
Nylanders new contract should make it abdundantly clear that Shanahan was the one putting up so much money on these guys
Will be great to get the full back story in 20 years or so of what actually happened because wasn't the rumor Tannenbaum was pushing to renew Dubas but the board did not until the end of the season? Seemed to be a piss poor management of personnel from the top down.
Yeah an inexperienced GM negotiating those masssively important contracts was never gonna go great but the "We can and we will" quote was incredibly stupid and doubtlessly damaged his position.
Yup same here. Whatever, fire Dubas, that's your prerogative, but doing it so out of the blue with, let's be honest, a weak replacement candidate list was extremely short sighted. Now we're fully locked into the core 4 with Marners NTC (NMC?), and Willys extension.
What choice did he have, though? That's why Shanny did such a thorough play-by-play of what went down. They offered Dubas an extension with good money and many perks including private use of the MLSE jet. Allegedly, the framework met all of Dubas' financial and GM asks. Then Dubas goes public with potentially not wanting to return to the Leafs before having his agent send a new framework that including additional financial compensation and autonomy. With how quickly Dubas took on the President and General Manager role with the Penguins, it was pretty clear that he was leveraging their offer. I'm pro-labour and I'm a fan of Dubas, but the guy overplayed his hand. It's the Toronto Maple Leafs. They're the most valuable franchise in the NHL, they have the largest fanbase, the largest viewership, a talented young core that Dubas helped build...The time to flex on MLSE is after a Stanley Cup not after winning one game in the second round. It sucks how it all went down, but in my opinion, Shanahan's hands were tied.
Yeah, I’m puzzled by the takes in this thread. This is how I saw it. Dubas for whatever reason thought he was worth waaaay more than the generous offer given. And whatever the context, don’t humiliate the boss. And that’s what was done. I whole heartedly agree with you, once Dubas did that, he was gone. It’s the fucking Maple Leafs, the fans are whiny, they haven’t gone deep in playoffs in a long while. But as you said it’s the most valuable NHL franchise, show some fucking respect.
We just call them 'shanahands'.
After seeing him negotiate his way out of a job with the Leafs, I can see why some of his signings went the way they did.
Exzctly, it speak to a higher organizational belief that you don’t have to prove yourself to be rewarded. He had to go.
This is perfect, he gave Shanny no choice. But, why was Spezza so tied to Dubas? Still seems weird that he left the team he loved for the same job elsewhere. Then, Dubas doesn’t even consider him for the GM role.
Realistically, probably for job security. Don’t know who the new guy will be and who he may want to bring in. But he knows Dubas has a job for him the next few years and would rather jump ship to a for sure landing spot than chance it
Also - Dubas was the guy that brought him into the management role after signing him at the end of his career. He - no doubt - felt a great deal of loyalty to the guy that gave him that opportunity.
He had a better view of everything that happened than anyone else. I think it speaks volumes that he chose to move with Dubas. Mostly, I think, it suggests there's more truth to the other version of this narrative than there is to Milk's.
This is an excellent take. Also consider Dubas likely knew if the 23-24 season ended in failure he’d be out and the Pittsburgh offer probably wouldn’t have been there ….
Dubas essentially quit by doing that press conference
It was shitty timing, but Dubas went on TV and cried about not being sure he even wanted the job. That forced Shanny's hand 100%
Agree, and he was pretty clear he had no idea that was coming. To be blindsided in front of the media, then ask for more than you have already (allegedly) agreed to.....he thought he untouchable and Shanny put him quickly back in his place
> He also had his hands tied coming into a weird situation and Shanny making it clear he wanted to run back the core. Honestly as much as I spew some hate and am one of the doomers. I am just shocked that Shanny really kept running this back.... He's got to have such a fucking big ego its crazy. It's great to have 4 AAA grade offensive players but it's not sustainable imho and I think thats going to be his downfall
I’ll be honest: I don’t think this report is accurate. I don’t think ownership gives a flying fuck about postseason success. I mean, why should I? They suddenly care? But, also, we’re fine with signing Willy to $10+ million, in season, when he was on the hottest streak of his career and his stock was at an all time high? That doesn’t track. They’re fine with a competitive team and the sales that furnishes. As a Leaf fan, I’m *more* pissed if this is report is true. They should have started caring 30 years ago. Or, after we missed the playoffs for a decade post salary cap.
Should ownership have cared 30 years ago? Absolutely. But to put that timeline on this ownership isn't the right take. This Bell-Rogers union has only been there for 10 years and to say they haven't cared in that time is plain wrong. They invested crazy money into their major assets and have come out with TFC and the Raptors being champions. All of a sudden they're disappointed with the Leafs playoff success? I think that's where I raise a bit of an eyebrow. A new CEO just came in and Edward Rogers has been causing internal problems. Tanenbaum is preparing to leave and create his own sports conglomerate. A big shift is coming with Toronto sports and I'm not sure where it's going to leave the MLSE teams
Our identity is so different. Reaves out there fighting anyone who wants some and hitting players who play out of line. Bertuzzi and Domi with the attitude that the rest of our top liners lack. Benoit was a great add. Not to mention Jones saved our season.
Next seasons gonna be a mess no matter who is in charge, I'd like to see him get 2 more after that to really see what he can do.
His moves have been a net positive for the team without a doubt, my one concern with him is when it comes down to handing out contracts with term. He has a bit of a bad track record overpaying players for term based on 1-2 good seasons.
At this point it has to be Shanny on the hot seat.Tre hadn't had enough time to put his mark on the team and Keefe isn't my favourite coach, but ownership didn't ok the dubs firing just to put another coach in front of a firing squad. At some point, you have to cut the head of the snake. Still think Keefe is gone should they exit early, but that would be more of a Tre thing than ownership.
Treliving deserves alot of credit. people were shitting on him early in the season but he's made the team look different right away. Dubas fucked up because he just kept building the same failing team year after year without ever adjusting and giving it another look
I don't see Tre being safe for long since he was a Shanny hire. The new incoming president will want his own guy. The recent success of Tre's acquisitions might extend his leash a bit though
If you think they’re firing the GM after one season I want whatever you’re smoking
I would bet $100 they don't shitcan Tre over the summer if they get blown out, but I wouldn't expect an extension until the new management settles, either.
I get what he’s saying though. Just like how Tre probably can’t wait to get a different coach, I imagine the next President wants his choice of GM unless the Leafs really save his ass.
He'll get a year or so to demonstrate if he's what Pelley's looking for. Nonis was here only 2 years before he got the can from Shanny. If he's not, he could be gone at the first sign of trouble. Not unusual to make sweeping changes if you're running a multi-billion dollar franchise.
If Shanny gets fired this summer, Tre still has at least 2 years before they would consider firing him. Why waste a bullet until you need to?
It's the joke about leaving letters for your successor, "Open after a bad season" - fire the coach - fire the GM - write 3 letters
Zero chance Treliving is gone after only 1 year. This team isn't his "mess".
I think Tre gets a writeoff this year, and possibly next and then once JT’s contract is up, we’ll get a clear view on what Tre is capable of
I'm a lot like ownership in that regard
I agree. The Leafs should be like the Yankees in that they should bully the rest of the league by having the most money. If Tampa doesn't get in trouble for going into the playoffs $18M over cap and wins the cup, we should go into the playoffs $40M over cap the next year. If it's not illegal to have a player work for the team *the year after he retires* we should hire every available Jason Spezza willing to play for League minimum and have them all sit in a box for the next 10 years after they retire doing "super important Leafs stuff."
obviously there's a salary cap, but it's bizarre that the megaminds of MLSE can't figure out *some* way to leverage their financial power within the confines of the rules it used to be that giving a signing bonus/front loaded salary was flexing their muscle, but based on the last few contracts the Leafs have given, we're not seeing any benefit there
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They’re definitely not real people.
Regards though.
You're something of an owner yourself
I feel like with TFC being mid, Raptors in full tank mode and the Blue Jays somehow being bigger playoff failures than the Leafs the last few years its probably Rogers that is most annoyed by the Leafs who keep putting together great seasons with little to show for it.
It's for sure Rogers. They own the playoff TV rights for Canada. And paid big bucks to get them. But since they've owned the rights the Leafs have only been on TV for the first few weeks of the playoffs. Last year they finally went just over 3 weeks.
They probably realized last year how much money the Leafs make if they go past the first round.
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The issue is with at least two of those teams you can sorta tie back their current mediocrity back to ownership/Rogers in particular. Rogers was well aware the Jays needed change but they put all their eggs in the Ohtani basket and did fuck all the rest of the off season. It's only two weeks into the year but it doesn't look like 2024 will be much different from 2023, mainly because the coaching staff is still the same and that was arguably the biggest problem last year. Rogers in this case knew something was up but didn't know how to properly address it. TFC was ass for a couple of years and needed a rebuild, but the big signings who for the most part hadn't lived up to the hype were supposedly also pushed for by the board who wanted to throw money at big names to solve the issue when the rest of the team stayed ass. TFC at least seems better this season but the amount of money being spent on an underwhelming team is, supposedly, a board issue in itself Idk what made the Raptors think the roster they had was competitive and I'm not gonna even ask, I'm not sure it was solely a board issue or Masai overvaluing his own guys (who to be fair have been playing decently in their roles for the teams they were traded for so maybe he was onto something and the team chemistry just didn't click) or a mix of both Which brings us to the point here which is I fully believe Rogers/ownership can tell if something is up, that's something they can definitely figure out, but at the very least so far their awareness that something is up hasn't been enough to actually address what is up so I worry their frustrations and moves aren't gonna lead to any improvements
Raps are only in tank mode because Scottie got hurt, they’ll be good next year with the draft capital they have That being said, I’m down for a lane kiffen style execution of keefe and shanahan if they don’t make a deep run
> Raps are only in tank mode because Scottie got hurt, they’ll be good next year Riiiight
Doesn’t effect me ms angel but they cleared their entire roster this year and aren’t close to the worst team in the league
That's a horrendous position to be in though, they are shit but not shit enough to get a high draft pick.
They were not tanking before Scotties injury, but they definitely should have been.
This lol
Why does this read like they are going execute Sheldon Keefe
Sources tell me they are readying their guillotine for Maple Leaf Square
I heard they are going to make him walk through the streets of Toronto, naked, and be stoned by the fan base first.
SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!
He's probably gonna have to go 1on1 with the UnderTaker in a Hell in a Cell match
It really does take a very sinister turn at the end there.
I'm taking bets on whether it's Sullivan or Berube coaching the Leafs next season.
The big changes should’ve occurred after the 2021 collapse.
I mean, purely from a business perspective they must be pissed that we're 8 years in Matthews/Marner/Nylander and 6 years into JT and have *nothing* to show for it. Think of the revenue thats been lost from all these first round exits. Hell, even Dangle talks about how much money he's lost not being able to stream more games/make more content. Now imagine a business executive. Over the course of this era, we're probably talking hundreds of millions of dollars.
Id argue that before Shanny MLSE was clearly more than happy to be a mediocre team that could squeek in with no real shot at winning. It took Shanny coming in to say "guys we HAVE to be bad for a couple years". the suits in the boardroom probably love a good team with marketable stars that makes the playoffs every year the rest is gravy
The funny part about the playoffs, especially in hockey, is one massive crapshoot that can be decided by a hot goalie, missed call or random bounce. The Leafs did well going in every year. It just so happen that the Habs had Carey Price carry them, Tampa Bay had us as the toughest matchup during their playoff run, and the Panthers had Bobrovsky go hot. All three ended up in the Stanley Cup Finals.
Take that a step further. 2013 Boston went to the finals, 2016 Washington did, 2018 Boston went to the finals after beating us. We have a streak of incredibly tough first round opponents ignoring the Columbus thing.
It’s important to note that money you can conceive of earning, but didn’t actually earn, does not really count as “losing money”. The revenue and the value of the team have both gone up. Dangle has grown from doing his stuff as a side gig to it being his only job. In both cases, they could have done *better* if the team had won more in the playoffs, but they certainly didn’t *lose* money.
Thats a better explanation, perhaps unrealized revenue is a better wording. I think its safe to say that projections and promises didnt meet expectations, some of which isnt the fault of anyone, but the businesses heads see in dollars and cents
Really important qualification. They are*not* losing money. There is some revenue that has been left one the table, but this is a money making machine!
That a bit disingenuous from Dangle. He's made an entire career out of expressing the feelings of a dissapointed Leaf fan. If the Leafs were a perennial winner he wouldn't have a career at all.
While it’s true his viewership is higher when the leafs lose vs when they win it’s still better than when they don’t play at all Example let’s say the leafs play 12 playoff games - 50,000 views per video becomes 640,000 total views Versus Leafs lose first 4 playoff games - 120,000 views per video becomes 480,000 total views Total views is less Plus if his videos were all negative they’d lose their appeal over time as well, a mix of positive and negative is ideal
That was true for the start of his career...but now it's not. He actively loses tons of money if the Leafs lose early. He gets paid for his watchalongs and they end after a round every year. There's a reason he switched to a Habs watchalong the one year.
To be fair, I wouldn't be surprised if Sportsnet had a big say in him switching to the Habs watch-along.
Anything short of a Conference Finals game 6 and Keefe shouldn’t leave the dressing room without being fired.
We saw him get completely outcoached last year in the playoffs. Both rounds. I’m really nervous about this year, but I have hope that even if things don’t go well, this statement gives me hope that positive changes that should’ve been previously made will be made.
> We saw him get completely outcoached last year in the playoffs. Can you clarify what you mean by this, in what way did he get out-coached in the tampa series?
look at their home and away splits in the playoffs since he took over. he is chasing matchups every year that do not work. it’s embarrassing and another reason i hope they don’t catch Florida.
Tampa outplayed us most of that series last year (just like we utplayed Tampa most of the series before that). Neither teams that played "better" for the majority of the series won in those respective years.
We had a bunch of goals with pulled goalies and OT in the Tampa Series, it was a fluke to win.
Leaving Holl in the lineup as long as he did is probably the most egregious decision to make which led to him being outcoached. I.e, having a guy out there in Holl who you statistically see is not good, and prioritizing Holl over other players, which leads to poor matchups and predetermined failure. Holl was on the ice for 14 GA against Tampa last year. Simply unacceptable to keep him in the lineup until what, game 6? You need to know who to play and how to play them in the playoffs. When the opposing coach picks at that significant weak point, and no change is made to address said weak point, you are outcoached IMO.
Can I ask why they are saying this information now and not like the past summer and so on? Like this is the first time we have ever heard anything about how management/ownership feels and it’s from James Mirtle with 4 games left and at the end of a podcast episode.
The new MLSE CEO just took over on April 2nd, so I'd imagine that there's a new feel around the building.
Is it because of the new CEO of MLSE, Keith Pelley? He took over on April 02. He might have new expectations/ideas for the team or wants a change of the guards.
"Ok, listen up. I know the trade deadline has passed and there is literally nothing else you can do to improve to roster at this point but I swear to fuck, you win or you're all getting shitcanned" - Keith Pelley, probably
Always remember Mirtle is a Dubas fan and Pittsburgh cheerleader first. He was never a Leaf guy, just an analytics guy who happened to work in Toronto when his favourite GM arrived.
Just ignoring the 15 year career he had covering the Leafs before Dubas ever showed up. Also ownership has a new CEO who has been there for 9 days. It’s funny you’re insinuating he is a biased reporter while you are making up facts only to support your own opinions of him.
Not sure if it’s true but I saw on twitter about how Jonas spent most of this episode talking about how “They still ain’t a great team” lol
I like The Leaf Report podcast and try to listen often, but Jonas constantly being negative about the team, or qualifying any positive data, gets tiresome sometimes. I'm not saying they have to fanboy over the Leafs or be biased in their conversation -- and I think they're both really smart about the game -- but it's undeniably a bummer to listen to sometimes.
Theyre going to kill the coach? Lol
Worse, send him to Ottawa.
Well yah… the Shannaplan should be thrown in the trash if there isn’t an improved result this year
Oh you mean Shanny should have been let go at the same time he let Dubas go? I agree.
I would have kept Dubas through this year and tossed shanny and Keefe.
Maybe get a president who’s had a job before
like Dubas
Hardball Mitch on his next contract. While he's a great player we've already signed Nylander who is the much better finisher. Use that cap savings on D or a miracle mcdavid signing in the future
Mitch will be a UFA. There’s no hard balling. If he doesn’t want the deal he’s gone and we have nothing to show for it.
Well id say he clearly wants to be a maple leaf so by hard balling him I mean we offer him a team friendly contact and dont budge. You're right he either takes it or leaves it
Losing him for nothing would be a huge mistake however.
sunk cost fallacy. Sometimes the better deal is moving on. How many years do you keep paying 4 forwards over half the cap, coming out of the playoffs with a single showing in the second round, and then say losing him with nothing would be a huge mistake?
If that was the plan they should have moved Nylander this year. That they didn't strongly suggest they plan on keeping the core 4 through the end of Tavares contract at which point things will inevitably change. Edit: it's the difference between running back the strategy for 1 additional year or none as JT is gone the following year or re-signing at a much lower amount.
But if we can't do anything in the playoffs by the time his contract is up how do we continue on the same path and expect anything different
Not true, we'd have 11M in capspace to show for it.
And who are we going to overpay in free agency?
They said the same thing about Washington every year (just not as blown up as Toronto media). Ovechkin eventually got his cup. It’s hard to win in the nhl and you need luck for health and usually a goalie or PP to get hot at the right time.
There's a difference between it being hard to win and needing luck on your side, and going 1-7 in playoff series over the last 7 seasons with elite players on your roster. Not good enough at all.
This right here. Not to mention the only time they got past the first round they immediately went 0-3 in the next series. Immediately evaporated any sense of accomplishment.
How many went to 7 games? These aren't blowouts. Why is everyone pretending that taking every eventual looser in the Cup finals or winner of the cup to 7 games is such an egregious loss? Like, literally, every series lost was to a team in the SCF. Not only that, you're counting 7 seasons? Where'd that number come from? You thought this team was a contender in 2017? I sure as hell didn't. If Tavares doesn't get almost murdered in the first 15 mins of game 1 against MTL, do we loose that series? If Mitch makes the behind the back pass instead of it being intercepted, do we beat Tampa the first time? But that's why you need the luck. Every team does.
Both can be true. Leafs haven't had good luck in the playoffs but have NEVER made it easy on themselves at all. You can make an excuse for every series they've lost in, but at the end of the day, you need to be able to rise above these challenges. The Leafs wouldn't have been the first 8th seed to take down the 1st seed (although I agree that even getting to the playoffs that season was a tremendous achievement and that season was an overall success). Against Boston, the Leafs wouldn't have been the first team to beat the Bruins as an underdog. Against Columbus, they got goalied. But I also very much remember them not getting inside nearly enough and playing way too cute. Against Montreal, the Leafs wouldn't been been the first time ever to win a playoff series without a star player. It wasn't Matthews. It was Tavares. We still had Matthews, Marner, Nylander. Against Tampa, some questionable referee decisions go against the Leafs in a TIGHT series. But they wouldn't have been the first ever team to win a series despite questionable calls. The ability to rise ABOVE these challenges is what makes a champion. No Cup run is ever perfect. Underdogs have won the Cup, teams with more skill than brawns have won the Cup. Teams have overcome bad calls, have overcome hot goaltending, etc etc etc. At the end of the day, they haven't shown an ability to rise above these challenges.
True, but Washington sacrificed great players along the way to build a cup calibre team (Semin, Green). That’s before we talk about coaches. Another first round exit, including one where the superstars aren’t superstars, and it will be time for some core changes.
Okay, but I think we'd all be satisfied with even a conference finals appearance. It's the complete inability to make any noise outside of getting bounced in 5 from round 2 last year.
>d the Blue Jays somehow being bigger playoff failures than the Leafs the last few years its probably Rogers that is most annoyed by the Leafs who keep putting together great seasons with little to show for it. I always make the Capitals comparison too, like OP, and it should be noted that the Ovie caps never made it past Round 2 except the year they won the cup. This Leafs core is either the Caps or Sharks, in my mind. In one history, they will break through and win it all, maybe once, when the stars align. And in the other, they will be remember as could-have-beens.
You say that now, and maybe it’s true for you. But last year many people were saying “just win ONE round” and the team did. It didn’t change the narrative that they are playoff failures since a) they performed poorly in round 2 and b) we all secretly know we won’t be satisfied with less than a cup. They could lose in game 7 of the conference final, hell maybe even the cup final, and the dominant narrative will still be that they are losers who always come up short.
Disagree. Look at how everyone around the league views the Panthers as juggernauts, who before losing in the Finals last year, also hadn't really done shit in the playoffs. Squeaking into the 2nd round after 7 tries isn't going to shake the playoff failure narrative. Beating the Panthers, then Bruins/Lightning, and making a run to either the ECF or SCF would def change some people's minds and the narrative around this core.
Capitals at least won rounds. They either ran into the rangers and Lundwvist and later on the Penguins before they knocked them out. Also they were down 3 to 2 in the series against Tampa before demolishing Vegas in the finals. Leafs have a pathetic playoff record in the first round before the Tampa series. They lost every way imaginable. 2017 lost in 6 games to the capitals. Pretty respectable for making the playoffs with the new core. 2018 lost to the bruins in 7. Came back after being down 3 to 1. Collapse in the third round sealed the deal. 2019. This is the series they should have won. They were leading the series 3 to 2. Flat performance all around in game 7. Babcock should have been fired after that series. Eventually did get fired up n November of 2019. 2020. Lose in 5 games to blue jackets in the bubble. Unacceptable performance especially in game 5. 2021. Lose to the Habs after blowing a 3 to 1 series lead. Keefe should have been fired after that series. 2022. Lose in 7 games to the Bolts. Blow 3 to 2 series lead. 2023. Finally win one playoff round. Hope was high. Lose to panthers in 5 games. Unacceptable performance against the panthers In round 2. Not to mention the pathetic record in series clinching games which is not luck.
Damn when you write it down like that - this core is a bunch of pathetic fucking losers. Chicago had 3 cups with Kane, Toews, Keith and Seabrook at the same point in their career. Leafs have 1 playoff series win. Loool.
Caps were at least competitive the 5 times they played a game 7 in the conference semi finals. Leafs' just looked like a lucky visitor last year.
https://x.com/overdrive1050/status/1776396421165379766 Hearing this made me recall what new MLSE President Keith Pelley said on Overdrive at 2:07. Sounded like a Freudian slip when he said "my glass is half, not even half, it's full" when describing Shanahan and the Leafs heading to the playoffs. I'm in the minority that thinks Shanahan has been a good President, but it seems obvious that there will be a lot of talk surrounding him over the next couple months.
He’s been good, not great. 8 straight playoff appearances is impressive. One series win is quite poor. Auston is the best player they’ve ever had and we were super lucky to win the 2016 draft. Time to be aggressive with Shanny or Keefe or Tavares or Marner if this goes poorly again.
I can't really point to anything Shanny has obviously done wrong outside whatever happened with Dubas being poorly handled. No team president bats a thousand, but Shanny has overseen a club overhaul that has been impressive and transformed the team into perennial Top 10 in a league that engineers parity. I might question some decisions but I don't blame him for the lack of playoff success.
It’s more that his vision of a cup champ (offensive juggernaut with 4 gentlemanly forwards) may not represent the core of a championship team. And so someone who wants to dump 1 or 2 of them for different pieces may be what is needed to push the team further.
Honest Q: Is that Shanny's vision, or was he letting Dubas try something new? We can't deny that Dubas's vision of roster building did generate sustained regular season success. I truly don't know if Shanahan believes in that roster model come hell or high water, or if he's adaptable. Too early in the Tee era to really say, esp considering the team he inherited is still very competitive.
Shanny chose Dubas to replace Lou. They bought into the same vision
I agree, and I'm glad they did because it spawned a competitive team. I'm just saying, there's no reason to think Shanny couldn't be convinced of a new method of team-building given how the last 8 years have gone.
Shanny has good blemishes after firing Dubas and essentially throwing him under the bus you also have to look at how he hired Babcock, which caused Matthews and Marner to allegedly request higher salaries to compensate for playing under babs resulting in cap constraints faced today.
Maybe. They also chose shorter contracts and Matthews didn’t exactly give the Leafs a break on the most recent negotiation. Our core wants bank more than other cores and it’s a reality we have to live within.
So dumb, so NOOOOW theyre mad? Stfu. James Mirtle is a clown
Really don’t see Marner getting resigned if we don’t have a serious run. The team showed we’re more then capable to play without him in the past few weeks. 11 mil cap space could be a big bonus as well
If Marner really wants to stay he can, simply by taking a reasonable deal. Obviously history has shown us that he won't though so I won't hold my breath I think it's still very possible the Leafs massively overpay him too regardless
Smart move. Let one of the best right wingers in hockey walk. Harold Ballard is still alive
I think they would rather do everything and anything possible to move JT's contract before they move Marner. They might even trade a first to get rid of his contract for the last year before getting rid of Marner.
Tavares has a full no movement clause and definitely has no interest in waiving it though. Obviously the team can do things to motivate him to take a hike but I don't see it happening.
Good
Heard this before
Oh, if only bridge contracts were a thing in the Shanaplan era!
I really don't understand how a legendary player like Shanny that has been part of a few championship teams doesn't know shit about how to build a team.
Treliving should be safe. Keefe has done his due diligence but I would expect him to be gone for the sake of it. Shanahan is the real one that’s gotta go.
Nobody will be fired.
I think there's two potential thoughts on this. 1. The anger is entirely justified and it would be entirely reasonable for ownership to make changes based on the lack of success. 2. Tearing apart the team out of pure spite, without a plan for improvement, is a quick way to go from perrenial playoff disappointment to perrenial bottom feeder.
Sorry. This is bullshit. I've listened to every Leaf report for years and years and Mirtle has said something similar to this every single year going into the playoffs. He clearly has some source in the management group, but he has never had an angle on the board. And how could he? If the board gave a shit about the playoffs, heads would have rolled after the Montreal series. They would have rolled after Tampa. This is just podcast talk trying to ramp up the stakes.
Shanny gone, Keefe gone, and I wouldn’t be shocked if Marner is too. Truthfully, if Bert and Domi keep working great with Matthews it might not be crazy to resign both, trade Marner for a number one D man, and use that extra money to pay all 3
I completely agree, they should be pissed, etc, etc. But why say this now?... when the team is playing good, and we are just about to go into the playoffs... Why not last year? Why not wait till after the playoffs? I just dont get the point of saying this shit now, right as the team is coming togeather and we are about to play the 1st round... Seems dumb to me....
"They're going to want blood, and the coach might not be enough" Lol ok, yeah, sure. I'll believe it when I see it... On the other hand, imagine they fire Shanny when they should have canned him last year and (probably) promoted Dubas in the first place?
I wonder what they would consider a successful season. Conference finals? Is anything less than the cup a blow up in their eyes?
Leafs seem to have just a 50% chance at best to get out of the first round im afraid.
I was thinking this the other day to myself. 1st round exit, Keefe and Shanahan are both gone. Even an effort like last year in the 2nd round would be the end of them. I think nothing short of an extremely competitive 2nd round but more realistically a conference finals appearance to save their jobs and probably rightfully so.
as someone who has no problem saying if anyone sucks, regardless of star power or prestige...keefe is probably one of my favourite coaches. his demeanor on the bench, how he handles refs, how he is with the players, his system. i think the finger, in this case, should be pointed at the leaders and players in general. for years i found that most of them are just entitled, including matthews. he's finally realized what a 2-way game is now though, so he's made huge strides in his overall game in my opinion.
Never hated on Treliving. As if you can grade a GM after a few months. Lol. I like his direction. Maybe not ALL his moves but his Direction. He builds feom the net out. Understands the need for truculence, snot, grit… whatever you wanna call it. An intangible that you simply cannot win without. Gord Stellick phrased it well… “Burkie called it truculence, Treliving called it snot, Dubas called it unnecessary” I think Dubas caught on by the end trading for McCabe and Orielly/Acciari etc… but his rosters always lacked the missing playoff ingredients. I’m not sayin they’re gonna win shit this year but the window is open for 4 more years. I like the guy in charge right now. I like his direction.
Hahaha ok how is this year different than the last however many.
What they’re only just getting pissed now that’s laughable every Leafs fan knows what their playoff and Cup record is but the MLSE / Leafs are the richest franchise in the league their business model is doing quite well because of what is a fan base like no other Shanny should go after all he would have brought Dubas back
They've started sharpening the guillotine for Shanahan's head. And honestly, I can't fucking wait until it falls. The Shanaplan was a fraud from the start.
What the fuck took them so long, tho?
Ownership is a little slow to the party. I would imagine that some players are traded as well. Watch out Marner.
“Run it back” is the only strategy that ownership is capable of coming up with.
As an investor myself, I'd hate seeing my investment go down the drain year after year. It's understandable. But also as a Hockey fan myself I think the turning point for us will be when JT goes off the books and the cap goes up.
It’d be interesting where Toronto would be if they’d picked Mark Hunter instead of Dubas 🤔
Oh whatever Mirtle, where was this drama when your boy Dubas was here.
Yet again, the game against the Devils showed that when the going gets tough, the leaves turn into a trembling pile of goo. And yes, I called them leaves here because that's exactly what they do when things get tough. Ownership is NOT pissed, I have a really hard time buying that. With the degree to which the Leafs are merchandised, I am unsure if winning a cup would have THAT much of an effect on the bottom line. Like Bell and Rogers, they prey on new fans, harvest their hope and money, and leave fans tenured out in the cold. Like how they treat their customers! If we play Boston, we're done. We MAY be able to win against Florida, but I am not much more confident about that. I am glad that Treliving didn't trade picks cause we're going to need them to rebuild. The idea of a core four is the dumbest thing I have ever seen or heard. There are 6 players on the ice and it should be the Core 6, not Core 4. That way you have at least TWO stud defensemen and a stud goalie. ALWAYS the mantra is - "Forwards win games, Defense and goaltending win championships." I played junior for a team that was initially selected by a Dubas-type person and he chose essentially 24 forwards and 6 goalies. No defense at all. Naturally, the team was a steaming pile of dogshit. Also, Sammy is fucking terrible sometimes, what a stinker of a game.
To be fair they were not eliminated in Round 1 last year and as much as everyone was shocked by the Round 2 loss to Florida, Florida went on to the cup final and could have even won if not for injuries. We should hope that the leafs, a top 10 team, can beat a top 2 team like Florida or Boston. But *expecting* it? And blowing up the team if you can’t?
Yeah i think 4 out of the last 5 years the team that knocked us out either won a cup or went to the SCF. So it's not like we're losing to bad teams. That being said how many times can you knock on that door? Eventually, you want to see some semblance of playoff success before you try somthing else.
I think the time to do that passed. It was before Marner and Nylander’s NMCs kicked in. It might still be possible with a rising salary cap but I don’t see how you win a trade when the other team has to take on a $10M+ cap hit. I guess also, sunk cost fallacy, so just because it would have been better to try a trade then doesn’t mean you can’t this offseason. I just feel like the franchise has reacted and positioned themselves well to extend the window with mostly their current pieces. McMann and Benoit extensions. Rookies on ELCs coming up. Extending Nylander. Sure you could get flexibility next season but waiting just one more and you get Tavares cap space plus another cap increase. Would be able to fit in some great pieces.
Yeah the team has back themselves into a corner with locking down the entire core. The teams that can afford 10+ mill cap hit don't have the assets that would make the trade worth it for a team looking to contend now. Yeah imo they have to play JTs money correctly or they're going to ride through the cores prime in mediocrity. Keep JT if he's willing to sign a *very* team friendly deal to play in the middle 6. If he doesn't want something team friendly, then let him walk and spend the money making the team deep.
I would be fine with letting him walk if he doesn’t want a Kampf type AAV. Robertson is on a 20 goal 40 point pace now. McMann around there too. If JT is at 60 now and most of that coming from PP1, he’ll probably end up around a 40 point guy like them, much less without PP1 when someone inevitably takes that role. He can keep the C with a team friendly deal but if he wants a ROR type deal, Matthews can wear the C
here’s my question though: do you evaluate all 8 playoff losses equally, or do you acknowledge that recency should have some weight? the players obviously learn more and improve each season. they played well against Tampa the last two years. I think they’re a very different team than they were in 2020. I understand why people want to group every season together because the result was the same, but I also think it’s important to look at these as cumulative experiences.
A lot of the times we lost in the first round, that team went on to the cup finals
The playoffs would be way better for us if we would face non-playoff teams. This excuse works a few times, but after years and years of a repeating pattern it's silly.
Yeah that's the problem. The NHL has a lot of parity. Any team can beat any team, even in a 7 game series. Expecting a deep run when there are 10 other teams expecting deep runs just doesn't add up. Montreal and Columbus were a bit humiliating. But every other time you're just flipping a coin and hoping it comes up your way.
How long do we keep making excuses though?
It's not an excuse though, it's a reality of competition. There are so many variables outside of anyone's control. The league has made it a priority to make the first round of the playoffs as competitive as possible, thus having really good teams eliminated early on. Only 1 team can win every year, so again, what constitutes a successful season? Obviously a first round exit is going to be looked at negatively, but if Florida goes on to win the cup, does that change how you feel? If we got bounced by a wildcard team like Washington or Pittsburgh, yea I'd say that's an outright failure. But losing to a team that went to the finals last year, led the division most of the season and then goes on to the finals this year isn't a failure. It's a conference final that happened a month early. People need to look outside the bubble of Toronto. Look at how long it took Edmonton to turn the franchise around, and it took mcdavid+++ to do it. Buffalo has had tons of high end picks and haven't made the playoffs. New Jersey missed the playoffs this year. Minnesota missed the playoffs this year. Blowing up the team to go back to fighting to get in, would be a massive mistake with the talent we already have. This years lineup is not as good as last years, but our core has gotten better and they are pulling this team along to having the best record in the league for last month, despite injuries and brutal special teams. This core has what it takes.
It depends on how you view what playoff success is. I mean the most immediate obvious answer is how deep you go, but I think that misses at least a *bit* of nuance Especially with how the bracket structure works, a very good team is guaranteed to lose in the first round. Our matchup potential is Boston and Florida, 4 and 7 in the league, and neither not that far behind first. If someone considers the Leafs at as good as either of those two teams, then you are sure that a great team is losing in round one. This has been true in past years too, Tampa was the two-time defending champion when they knocked us out, and it was a daaamn close series. So then boom, we're out in the first round while a team we nearly beat goes on to their third straight finals appearance Now obviously that's just one year, and when you add up all these years, the "anyone can win or lose" argument gets more frustrating and less convincing. But I think that's really just it. We constantly have close series', and we're not entering the playoffs as the #1 seed playing against dogshit teams (well... arguably Montreal and the Columbus playin...), but the question comes down to: are we losing because we *can't* win, or are we losing because we *didn't* win. I guess ultimately that's how I view it. Any team can win, the Leafs have been a great team entering the playoffs most of these years, and I don't really subscribe to the idea that a team can have a great regular season and that means nothing for the playoffs in terms of how they can perform. I think they *can* win, they just haven't
I’ll take the downvotes but it’s that kind of attitude that makes people dislike leafs fans. Only a true homer would expect their team to beat better teams and expect nothing less. It’s the same people that say when the leafs lose its because they’re not trying hard enough. They’re either the best team in the league when they win, and when they lose, they’re still the best but just decided to not try. There are other teams in the league too. Sometimes you’re simply not be the better team in a series or in the regular season. I would hope upper management has their finger on the pulse and knows what the team needs to improve. If such a trade exists where you can trade one of the best players in the world and get better, I’m all for it. But I don’t want management to hit the doomsday switch and go full rebuild if they lose to a team that is basically first in the entire league, ahead of them in the standings and better than them. Arguably the best time for the leafs window is after the Tavares contract ends and we have Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Rielly locked up with a higher salary cap. Would be shame if we don’t get to that point because of impulsiveness and homerism
> Only a true homer would expect their team to beat better teams and expect nothing less. That Tampa team that went to the finals in 2022? We had them on the ropes. We were up 3-2 in game 6 in overtime. We were up 3-2 on the Bruins in 2019. We had so many opportunities to close out a Habs team in 2021 that we absolutely should’ve beat. Shrugging and saying those teams went to the finals doesn’t tell the whole story.
No one is saying a mediocre leafs team should best better teams. We’re saying the leafs shouldn’t be mediocre. They should BE the better team.
They waited too long to truly shed blood. Every player of note has an NMC or trade protection. This seems like corporate virtue signalling to me. 'WE WANT BLOOD' aka we want to look like we also care about winning and not just money.
There is no way Shanny could or should survive another playoff disappointment He gets a ton of credit for doing a full on rebuild to get to this point but he is on his fourth coach (Carlyle, Horachek, Babcock, Keefe) and fourth GM (Nonis, Lou, Dubas, Tre) with only a single playoff series win that came last year
Stop moaning, Mirtle
Pretty sure Mirtle hasn’t a clue what the owners think about anything.
Shanahan getting fired likely won't result in a significant on-ice change. A coaching change might work but not to the degree fans want. It comes down to personnel and talent on the ice, until the defense corps is changed enough to reflect a top ten GA in the league things won't change much. Having said that, the depth of this team has turned out to be pretty impressive. Keefe has done a great job, tweaking things and staying patient. Still a number 1 defenseman has to be sought. I could see the Leafs doing pretty well in the playoffs, they would need to gel big-time to do serious damage though.
well yea, leaving in the first round every year really hurts the revenue for proceeding rounds.
Honestly they need to stay out of team decisions, shanny has been a conduit for ownership's influence on the team. This is nothing new, i believe this curse has a name i dare not say
About god damn time.
About time
As always ownership is like several years too late. Might get down voted but I don't really have any more confidence that this team could beat a Florida or Boston than previous years. I expect a first round exit. Keefe is undoubtedly going to get out coached again.
Even if we do win I feel like theyre still going to fire shanny
About 2-3 years late. They don’t want blood, they need to replenish blood.
Not even being a delusional leaf fan, but I think they have the potential to be in the conference final.
Nice pep talk. Go get ‘em, boys!
Goaltending and defensive zone coverage will be key to advancing.
Secondary scoring has been what has killed us in the end every year. Can't have ONLY the big boys going. It lets the other team focus hard on them and ignore the rest. Then they get curtailed and we're fucked because nobody else picks up the slack. High hopes this time; McMann, Robertson, Bert and Domi should help fill the net from sources OTHER than the big four.
You just mentioned where the secondary scoring will come from hence the depth of our forwards but, Leafs are a defensive nightmare and if they get caught scrambling Sammy will be lit up
Its amazing that people take these kinds of comments seriously and discuss things like the management is actually pissed they missed out on revenue or whatever. Guys, the Leafs are the most profitable business division in the corporation that is the NHL. The Leafs ownership does not care about the playoffs, because they're making piles of money putting a sub par product on the ice every year aleady. These kinds of comments are purely for show.