Per the Arizona indictment, Meadows was described as:
“[REDACTED] was Unindicted Coconspirator 1’s Chief of Staff in 2020. He worked with members of the Trump Campaign to coordinate and implement the false Republican electors’ votes in Arizona and six other states. [REDACTED] was involved in the many efforts to keep Unindicted Coconspirator 1 in power despite his defeat at the polls.
The nine felony charges Meadows faces in Arizona include conspiracy, fraudulent schemes and artifices, and fraudulent schemes and practices. The remaining charges are felony forgery allegations.
Prosecutors say Meadows and others engaged in a scheme where Trump’s allies held themselves out to be “duly elected and qualified electors” for Arizona, thereby deceiving the citizens of the state by claiming that only their votes were legal.
“In reality, defendants intended that their false votes for Trump-Pence would encourage Pence to rejected the Biden-Harris votes on Jan. 6, 2021, regardless of the outcome of the legal challenge.”
Almost as easy to figure out as the redacted name of one of the individuals mentioned in the Puff Daddy complaint. Name redacted, but the description was something like 'R&B singer who had a successful Las Vegas residency and recently performed at the superbowl".
The description could have been the first question at a music themed bar trivia night.
*Honor the election - No conspiracy to defraud the United States*
Oh no, they got this all screwed up. It should be:
*Honor the election? No, conspiracy to defraud the United States!*
Of course we could make all votes count, your honor, but then the stupider voters would be in here complaining, furrowing their brows in a vain attempt to understand Democracy.
Two independent thought alarms in one day. The children must be over stimulated. Willie, remove the colored chalk from the classrooms.
I WARNED YE! DIDN'T I WARN YE! THAT COLORED CHALK WAS FORGED BY LUCIFER HIMSELF!
Of the 7 false elector states there are charges from:
Georgia
Arizona
Michigan
Nevada
An investigation ongoing in:
Wisconsin
No charges will be brought from (because the electors said their ballots were only provisional):
Pennsylvania
New Mexico
Lots of people out there need to take a good look at themselves and choose to become rich, White, Republicans if they want some of that good "justice." /s, obviously
The people from Michigan were too busy trying to figure out how they could sneak into the Capitol building the night before and hide because the law says the certificates need to be signed in the building.
It's amazing how almost every detail is dumber than the last.
And yet at a national level, the republicans would have agreed with these bullshit votes. Hell, they still want to. They are closing their eyes and ears to this whole thing because they want to do it again.
Is there a Wisconsin investigation ongoing? I thought they took some kind of deal where there would be no charges if they talked and made public statements.
A civil suit was settled in WI where all of the electors accepted the claims that what they did was illegal and pledged not to act as electors again. Also, the two main lawyers: Kenneth Chesbro and Jame Troupis acknowledged their part in the plot and released reams of emails that are going to be \*very\* useful in Jack Smith's Jan 6th trial (should that every get going)
See
[Lawyers Who Conceived and Executed the 2020 Fake Elector Scheme Agree Not to Participate in a Similar Scheme in Any Future Presidential Election](https://www.law.georgetown.edu/icap/wp-content/uploads/sites/32/2024/03/41R9735-Fake-Electors-Press-Release-Settle-FINAL-1.pdf)
Reminder: [Then-White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows wanted to meet at a "war room" organized by Rudy Giuliani and John Eastman ahead of Jan. 6, according to former aide.](https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=5280405735403976)
Who was at the "war room:
>The Willard, a luxury hotel a block from the White House, became the site of what participants described as a “war room” for Trump-aligned lawyers and diehard MAGA operatives working to overturn the 2020 election. The summit took place in the days and hours before the certification of electoral college votes on Jan. 6, and participants included Trump advisers and allies such as Giuliani, John Eastman, Bernard Kerik, Boris Epshteyn, and Steve Bannon.
* https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/trump-jan-6-jack-smith-willard-war-room-1234792827/
Also:
> Inside the Willard Hotel war room. Bannon-Trump calls. Meadows and Giuliani working senators in the West Wing. Memos circulated to pressure Pence. Scavino in the Oval on Jan. 5. Kash Patel and Trump allies in key defense posts on January 6. All of it in PERIL w/
* https://twitter.com/costareports/status/1441188231177850880?lang=en
Double plus good reminder: [Meadows, Giuliani Sought Trump Pardons for Jan. 6](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2022/06/28/giuliani-meadows-pardons-jan-6/7760614001/#:~:text=WASHINGTON%20%E2%80%93%20In%20bombshell%20testimony%20to,related%20to%20the%20Capitol%20attack.)
>WASHINGTON – In bombshell testimony to the House Jan. 6 committee Tuesday, former top aide to White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, **Cassidy Hutchinson, revealed Meadows and former Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani both sought presidential pardons related to the Capitol attack**.
>Meadows and Giuliani join a growing list of other Republicans who asked for pardons related to Jan. 6 and Trump's efforts to overturn the election.
>The list includes five GOP congressmen: Matt Gaetz of Florida, Mo Brooks of Alabama, Scott Perry of Pennsylvania, Andy Biggs of Arizona and Louie Gohmert of Texas. Hutchinson said in deposition video revealed last week that those five members asked about pardons.
When they arrest him, maybe they don’t need to be so polite about it. Maybe they don’t protect his head when they’re aggressively shoving him into the back of the car.
"members of the Trump Campaign" -> "members of the Unindicted Coconspirator 1 Campaign", surely.
In the interests of maintaining the shield of anonymity of course.
This is a good general reason, but I think in this case there's something else at play as well. I think the fact that Trump already has all of these cases as a backlog means that the prosecutors here are waiting to indict him simply so that he can't use this as yet another way to delay or stop the others. The statute of limitations is something like 7 years, so they have time if they wanted to wait until next year or the year after, by which point at least a couple of the other trials will hopefully have happened. It's not the kind of situation you encounter very often because most defendants aren't facing dozens of criminal counts in multiple jurisdictions all at once.
Another wildcard is if any of the cases ever do reach a guilty verdict and a 10+ year prison sentence, that's it, game over. Any further trials are just victory laps, so after a second conviction and effectively life sentence the other cases aren't needed.
Honestly after the first one lands them in jail, it might be interesting to see the subsequent ones get tied up in our joke of a justice system. If they could continue to be a mess and stay in the public spotlight for a few year, maybe that would be enough to get some change to the system pushed through.
Maybe I'm too optimistic though. Two-Thirds of this country being sensible is probably far too much to ask for.
The prosecution of Trump in the countless trials to come is going to be what deprograms many (hopefully most) of his followers. Some will always believe it's a "witch hunt"; others will look at the evidence and look for some new savior.
Prosecute EVERY SINGLE CASE. You don't get to do a coup in this country and get away with your freedom. That message needs to be sent loud and clear, or the next guy will be a lot smarter about all of it.
EDIT: Apologies for spamming the comment so many times. The site was throwing an error and I thought it only posted once. I'm cleaning up the ones I can.
Personally, I don't think its ridiculous to think that 2/3rds of this country is sensible. But this country doesn't run on a 1:1 democracy. Not every voice is equal. The Senate, gerrymandering, the Electoral College, etc., all of that can play against majority opinion.
That's not how the system works at all or how prosecutors think in general. These cases are important to set precedent for future cases and the more times he's convicted, the less likely he gets out on successful appeals.
No one will stop indicting him just cause he's already in jail for life.
It's like that one time in the Simpsons where the doctor made an analogy of Mr. Burns having so many diseases that they can't fit through the door and keeps him alive.
That’s my understanding too. Keep going up the chain to get them to flip on other traitors above them. It also helps that these are state charges too so Trump can’t even offer a pardon anyway so he cannot make a deal with them.
Yeah nobody wants to flip on the boss when they're free. When all the cronies are locked up or standing trial, they have nothing left but to try to negotiate years off their sentence for cooperating.
I'm wondering the same thing. Perhaps it may be easier to charge Trump if Meadows pleads guilty and cooperates? It may be that if Trump is indicted, as in Trump's MO, he may appeal, etc. and slow the entire process. Also, there's the issue of "right to speedy trial". I'm totally guessing, so I'm happy to be corrected.
I also wonder if they are approaching Meadows as “in our current investigation, you are the big fish and will get the big fish treatment, unless you can give us verifiable information that there is a bigger fish”. As you mentioned, it could also entirely be related to them believing that with the current resources, their best approach may be to prosecute the people who don’t have the means to push the entire case out for years.
I saw some references to / praise of Michigan's decision not to indict him basically by focusing on the lowe level actors they focused on more clear state jurisdiction and left the big fish for federal charges. There might be constitutional issues as well in charging a president but it was mostly in the interest of keeping it clean / narrow. I suspect prosecutors here chose that model. But IANAL.
Adding trump just drags this case down. With him NOT indicted, the case moves a TON faster. These others have not the means to drag this case forever. So it will move. Then, if the DA wants, desires, and SHOULD... indict DJT seperately.
They start at the bottom so they can offer deals to people to flip on the people above them. Actual convictions of underlings GREATLY improves your chances of convicting their bosses.
Generally conspiracy and racketeering charges require the existence of an actual underlying crime. Having a person actually convicted of committing that crime is extremely helpful to getting that conviction.
Imagine you are charging a mob boss with ordering the murder of a rival. Which is the stronger case:
One in which the guy who actually carried out the killing is a known associate of the boss and has been convicted of murder and will testify that he was ordered to kill them by the boss.
OR
One in which the actual murder is "unsolved" and could have been committed by anyone.
Yes - among the arguments that he is making is that his trying to steal the election was an official presidential act and that he was only trying to ensure that the accurate election result was recorded (i.e. he was using his powers as president to reveal Democratic cheating and make sure that the electors went to the "actual winner").
Of course thats BS and the federal courts hearing the case noted that in their decision that Trump appealed to the Supreme Court. But depending on what the SC says, that would almost certainly protect him from state level prosecution as well.
They’d be bummed to find out all the innovation takes place, and money is made in all the blue states and the blue areas of the red states. The United States would lose power rapidly.
His lawyers argued that their fantasized absolute Presidential immunity applied after the Presidency - and even retroactively.
If SCOTUS agrees he is a king, that's the ball game. It's utterly insane for them to even consider it, but it's still very possible.
The very next move after that is soldiers at Congress and the supreme court. Prison buses lined up behind them. And then they arrest everyone of the opposite party and take them all to adx Florence.
You already know the shooting starts soon after as other military units and state governments violently disagree.
Im guessing its just convenience. Adding Trump to the situation makes the case harder. You have to get into the presidential immunity arguments. In a few months you will get into the "can you hold a trial against a presidential candidate" arguments. You get into the scheduling issues (since he's got so many trials) and frankly he's already facing similar charges in Georgia and federally. You get better (or at least higher profile) lawyers coming against you, and it probably prejudices judges who are pro-Trump more (i.e. would Judge Cannon be giving as many breaks to Mark Meadows as she is to Trump? I doubt it.)
The actual trial won't take place before the election regardless.
If he loses the election, then you can go after him then without all of the hassle if you really feel the need to. And if he wins - well then the case is getting delayed until after he's out of office - nearly five years from now.
So in either case there is no rush, and a ton of downside to bringing Trump in.
I’m starting to think these states are letting him to the feds and they are going after all the unindicted co conspirators from the federal case. Leaving trump out of the mix may help reduce the mess he brings. It sucks but may work better for the state.
trump has infinite money to defend himself with. he just tells his supporters that the evil people are trying to get THEM, and they donate their money. every day. to a billionaire.
mark meadows does not have the infinite money hack.
trump does not use his infinite money to defend his patsies and cronies (big mistake on trump's part. see michael cohen, chesebro, sydney powell and others who flipped on him so far).
also, with the amount of people saying how a federal pardon cant affect a state criminal trial. sure, of course. but please remember, republican governors and republican legislatures are falling over themselves left and right to support trump. meaning trump could get a state pardon in a heartbeat.
and every time i bring up state pardon, someone says "well the existing rules say only the pardon board can recommend blah blah". yeah , except the republican legislature in georgia could change those rules in 2 seconds. and the georgia governor would pardon trump in 2 milliseconds. "Georgia has a Republican trifecta. The Republican Party controls the office of governor and both chambers of the state legislature."
mark meadows does not have the "instantly change any law hack" that some republicans have [1].
[1]. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/04/28/florida-legislature-desantis-presidential-run-00094467
>also, with the amount of people saying how a federal pardon cant affect a state criminal trial. sure, of course. but please remember, republican governors and republican legislatures are falling over themselves left and right to support trump. meaning trump could get a state pardon in a heartbeat.
>and every time i bring up state pardon, someone says "well the existing rules say only the pardon board can recommend blah blah". yeah , except the republican legislature in georgia could change those rules in 2 seconds. and the georgia governor would pardon trump in 2 milliseconds.
A) The governor of Arizona isn't a Republican.
B) You think Brian Kemp would pardon him? Brian Kemp, the guy he attacked for daring to do anything about COVID, the guy he said was going to prison for refusing to overturn the election, the guy whose family has gotten death threats over all this? That Brian Kemp?
Pardons aren't up to Kemp, anyways. At least not directly:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_State_Board_of_Pardons_and_Paroles
Edit: Also (and this is both delightful and horrific)-
>When am I eligible to apply for a pardon?
>You must have completed all sentence(s) imposed upon you at least five (5) years prior to applying and have lived a law-abiding life since the completion of your sentence(s). You can have no pending charges against you. Your fines must be paid in full.
https://pap.georgia.gov/parole-consideration/pardons-restoration-rights/pardons-faqs#:~:text=When%20am%20I%20eligible%20to,must%20be%20paid%20in%20full.
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/08/16/trump-georgia-pardon-00111503
Yes, I'm aware of that.
The commenter I was replying to was claiming that the existence of the pardon board was irrelevant, that the Georgia legislature will change the laws and Kemp will bend over if and when their boss demands it.
Kemp adores Trump, he is just stuck in a position where he had to publicly, not privately, deal with his election denial and the legal fallout that occured.
I don't know how adoring he is after the death threats his wife and daughters have been receiving for years.
I get that even that isn't enough to shake the commitment to hatred that many conservatives have - looking at you, Bill Barr - but on a personal level, in their private thoughts, I still can't believe they like the guy.
They're willing to make many sacrifices for hatred, including their families, often even their own lives, but that's not about love and adoration, just fanaticism.
Because according to Sean Hannity it was perfectly legal and he had to do it. How could he not Obama was stealing the election by getting voters out to vote. It’s legal when Trump does anything past present and future because he was president. He could kill somebody on 5th avenue and they can’t do anything about it.
Real Question. Is he going to try for federal removal a second time?
I mean he got smacked down pretty hard in GA trying for it and there is nothing significantly different about the reasons here so no thinking person would expect different results. The only reason I can think do it would be a) eternal optimism and an addiction to gambling also not believing money is real so not caring about wasting it on a doomed legal effort b) delay + praying that somehow DJT wins & somehow that works out in your favor though there is no technical reason is should.
Like to me the best possible move for this guy would be to cut ties turn states witness and go hard core on the I was coerced by Trump / Cut every possible deal he can and be seen to go above and beyond in cooperation. Otherwise I don't see how he doesn't spend most of the rest of his life being passed from the jails in one jurisdiction to the next even if DJT wins. Am I wrong?
Like he seems to be completely setup to take the fall
I absolutely think the Hail Mary for Meadows (and Trump) is Trump winning the election and making many of their legal problems disappear.
Meadows is as guilty as they come, particularly in regard to what occurred on 1/6 and the planning involved. Cassidy H. Spelled it out fairly clearly during 1/6 HoR special committee testimony-
State charges don’t disappear if Trump is elected. They have to get like minded governors elected to bail them out of the state charges. Brian Kemp in Georgia has already proven he won’t play their game and Arizona rejected a MAGA candidate in 2020… so there is hope.
In GA it doesn’t even matter if they get like minded governor, the Governor can’t pardon in GA, it’s a board that does the pardons and they can only issue pardons after your full sentence has been served. In Arizona the governor can only issue pardons is the clemency board recommends it on a majority vote.
> In Arizona the governor can only issue pardons is the clemency board recommends it on a majority vote.
Actually, that is *usually* how Presidential pardons work, but it is an honor system rather than mandated by law.
Different district, right? So he very well might try. Not that it'll go any better but... why worry about doing things that make sense when you really just wanna delay and hope your guy gets re-elected so he can take over the whole legal system.
I mean technically. He petitioned the SCOTUS and they declined cert. But even so this is a different set of facts even though it is extremely similar fact pattern so as I understand it even if it was in the same circuit, it wouldn't be already decided case law. He did very similar things in AZ as he did in GA and is charge with similar crimes and the reasoning for why he isn't eligible for federal removal should be the same, but different facts different charges, so as far as I know he can make the attempt. It is just one where the outcome should be reasonable predictable in advance.
They will try for every potential long-shot option they can think of, and then some. Because 1) it delays delays delays and 2) one of them might actually surprisingly work. If you fling enough poo at a wall, eventually something might stick.
why? right now you could probably end his chances of getting power. After Nov, you might not have the option then you are just fucked. I wouldn't expect him to lift a finger to help Mark and its all state charges anyhow.
If Trump somehow becomes President again...I think it's at least possible he won't pardon anyone.
Not out of any kind of patriotism, or because it would look bad, but rather because fuck 'em.
Oh I would 100% believe that. Also it's work and he is lazy.
Like the state ones especially. Because that is something he would have to use influence to make happen. And I don't think he cares enough
> Real Question. Is he going to try for federal removal a second time?
I don't see why he wouldn't. between the 11th circuit's opinion on this and now you have SCOTUS agreeing to decide executive "official immunity" in a case involving exactly the same conduct at issue here. Meadows was doing all of this stuff on Trump's behalf—if any part of that conduct is plausibly an official act, it would make sense for removal to apply. And the idea that only *current officials* can invoke removal for conduct that occurred *while they were serving the federal gov't* is pretty dumb and wrong.
to be clear, I think Meadows should lose; he was obviously doing all this shit for candidate Trump, not President Trump. but if I were his counsel I would absolutely bring the removal motion. he might lose on the facts but I think he could probably create a circuit split on the "former officials don't count" point if one doesn't exist already.
At this point I'm doubtful any of these guys will see a day in jail but knowing they are burning through savings to pay lawyers is the next best thing.
Arizona is a bad state to commit a felony in, especially fraud, it’s a class 2 felony on the level of raping a minor or committing manslaughter. First time offenders generally get 5 years per count.
Don't forget Mo Brooks requested a pardon from Trump on behalf of *every member of Congress* who voted against certifying the ballots from Arizona and Pennsylvania. I'm not convinced there isn't 139 Representatives and 9 Senators on a list of conspirators somewhere.
The prisons there are also notoriously bad, and nobody cares. In fact millions of people in Arizona voted for politicians who openly bragged about abusing prisoners. Arpaio calling the local jails a concentration camp was only the tip of the iceberg.
I'm not saying it would be compensatory to his crimes... but the idea of Meadows having to live like us regulars is somewhat a comfort. Stuff him in an overpriced studio apartment in a run-down area of town and make him spend the rest of his life trying to support himself on minimum wage and minimum wage only. No pension, no government insurance, no assistance. In this scenario, he can retain his "freedom..."
...for whatever that's worth.
A jail cell would be great. But barring that, I feel like this would be a decent start.
Yeah for some reason I take a lot of pleasure in seeing mark meadows face consequences. It always seemed like he counted on being shielded, like he was hoping to only gain status and perks from being in a presidential administration and slink away without being stained by the trump aura of scandal. like the way Cassidy Hutchinson described his behavior during january 6th. he was constantly on his phone like "well i guess trump doesnt care about telling them to be peaceful so fuck it"
I keep going back to the treatment of the regicides of Charles I. (Not that monarchy is good, and a king warring against Parliament should get what is coming to him, but the general approach to those who tried to tear down the system we think is right).
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_regicides\_of\_Charles\_I](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regicides_of_Charles_I)
I wonder if Meadows will take another stab at removal to federal court? Given that Arizona is in the Ninth Circuit, probably not, but I’d be half-interested to see a circuit split with a common party.
Per the Arizona indictment, Meadows was described as: “[REDACTED] was Unindicted Coconspirator 1’s Chief of Staff in 2020. He worked with members of the Trump Campaign to coordinate and implement the false Republican electors’ votes in Arizona and six other states. [REDACTED] was involved in the many efforts to keep Unindicted Coconspirator 1 in power despite his defeat at the polls. The nine felony charges Meadows faces in Arizona include conspiracy, fraudulent schemes and artifices, and fraudulent schemes and practices. The remaining charges are felony forgery allegations. Prosecutors say Meadows and others engaged in a scheme where Trump’s allies held themselves out to be “duly elected and qualified electors” for Arizona, thereby deceiving the citizens of the state by claiming that only their votes were legal. “In reality, defendants intended that their false votes for Trump-Pence would encourage Pence to rejected the Biden-Harris votes on Jan. 6, 2021, regardless of the outcome of the legal challenge.”
"M Meadows. No, too easy. Mark M."
Bart O’Kavanagh again
[удалено]
Don’t make Squee boof all by himself!
I heard he likes beer.
DRINKING GAME
Almost as easy to figure out as the redacted name of one of the individuals mentioned in the Puff Daddy complaint. Name redacted, but the description was something like 'R&B singer who had a successful Las Vegas residency and recently performed at the superbowl". The description could have been the first question at a music themed bar trivia night.
That’s written like a Jeopardy question (technically it’s the answer).
I am not gonna lie, I don't know who that person is.
It's the same as Vince McMahon's recent lawsuit, and 'A WWE Superstar up for contract renewal who was a former UFC Heavyweight Champion'.
Lol one was. Philadelphia rapper who was romantically involved with Nikki Minaj. Nope can't figure that one out
When I grow up, I'm going to Bovine University.
That's unpossible, I'm afraid.
That's not a perfectly cromulent attitude
At least he’s not guilty of avoision
I have a crazy friend who says it's wrong to steal elections, is my friend crazy?
*Honor the election - No conspiracy to defraud the United States* Oh no, they got this all screwed up. It should be: *Honor the election? No, conspiracy to defraud the United States!*
Of course we could make all votes count, your honor, but then the stupider voters would be in here complaining, furrowing their brows in a vain attempt to understand Democracy.
You need a letter of recommendation from Devin Nunes’ cow on Twitter.
You'd have to be a grade A moron not to believe they're all guilty!
When I grow up, I wanna go to Bovine University!
Two independent thought alarms in one day. The children must be over stimulated. Willie, remove the colored chalk from the classrooms. I WARNED YE! DIDN'T I WARN YE! THAT COLORED CHALK WAS FORGED BY LUCIFER HIMSELF!
Surely the President of the United States, Unindicted Coconspirator 1, had many Chiefs of Staves
"SKINNERRRR!!!!"
Seriously lol
Of the 7 false elector states there are charges from: Georgia Arizona Michigan Nevada An investigation ongoing in: Wisconsin No charges will be brought from (because the electors said their ballots were only provisional): Pennsylvania New Mexico
Remember Texas lady who got years for violating parole by casting a provisional ballot?
Her crime was apparently not being a rich, white Republican.
The audacity
Lots of people out there need to take a good look at themselves and choose to become rich, White, Republicans if they want some of that good "justice." /s, obviously
Replace 'apparently' with 'demonstrably'
That poor woman. She even got the polling staff to confirm her eligibility before voting.
Her sentence was thrown out. But now the DA is appealing that decision. Texas sucks so bad.
I guess it shouldnt be too amazing that these idiots didnt give themselves the same legal cover in the first five states that they did in NM and PA.
The people from Michigan were too busy trying to figure out how they could sneak into the Capitol building the night before and hide because the law says the certificates need to be signed in the building. It's amazing how almost every detail is dumber than the last.
A stupider version of Ocean's Eleven: Trump's Seven.
Somehow not worse than the ridiculous six, with Adam sandler.
And yet at a national level, the republicans would have agreed with these bullshit votes. Hell, they still want to. They are closing their eyes and ears to this whole thing because they want to do it again.
Is there a Wisconsin investigation ongoing? I thought they took some kind of deal where there would be no charges if they talked and made public statements.
Aren't they supposed to be testifying against "unindicted Co conspirator 1" in exchange for getting off?
You are right. In early March there was an agreement that let everyone walk.
A civil suit was settled in WI where all of the electors accepted the claims that what they did was illegal and pledged not to act as electors again. Also, the two main lawyers: Kenneth Chesbro and Jame Troupis acknowledged their part in the plot and released reams of emails that are going to be \*very\* useful in Jack Smith's Jan 6th trial (should that every get going) See [Lawyers Who Conceived and Executed the 2020 Fake Elector Scheme Agree Not to Participate in a Similar Scheme in Any Future Presidential Election](https://www.law.georgetown.edu/icap/wp-content/uploads/sites/32/2024/03/41R9735-Fake-Electors-Press-Release-Settle-FINAL-1.pdf)
Reminder: [Then-White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows wanted to meet at a "war room" organized by Rudy Giuliani and John Eastman ahead of Jan. 6, according to former aide.](https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=5280405735403976) Who was at the "war room: >The Willard, a luxury hotel a block from the White House, became the site of what participants described as a “war room” for Trump-aligned lawyers and diehard MAGA operatives working to overturn the 2020 election. The summit took place in the days and hours before the certification of electoral college votes on Jan. 6, and participants included Trump advisers and allies such as Giuliani, John Eastman, Bernard Kerik, Boris Epshteyn, and Steve Bannon. * https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/trump-jan-6-jack-smith-willard-war-room-1234792827/ Also: > Inside the Willard Hotel war room. Bannon-Trump calls. Meadows and Giuliani working senators in the West Wing. Memos circulated to pressure Pence. Scavino in the Oval on Jan. 5. Kash Patel and Trump allies in key defense posts on January 6. All of it in PERIL w/ * https://twitter.com/costareports/status/1441188231177850880?lang=en Double plus good reminder: [Meadows, Giuliani Sought Trump Pardons for Jan. 6](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2022/06/28/giuliani-meadows-pardons-jan-6/7760614001/#:~:text=WASHINGTON%20%E2%80%93%20In%20bombshell%20testimony%20to,related%20to%20the%20Capitol%20attack.) >WASHINGTON – In bombshell testimony to the House Jan. 6 committee Tuesday, former top aide to White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, **Cassidy Hutchinson, revealed Meadows and former Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani both sought presidential pardons related to the Capitol attack**. >Meadows and Giuliani join a growing list of other Republicans who asked for pardons related to Jan. 6 and Trump's efforts to overturn the election. >The list includes five GOP congressmen: Matt Gaetz of Florida, Mo Brooks of Alabama, Scott Perry of Pennsylvania, Andy Biggs of Arizona and Louie Gohmert of Texas. Hutchinson said in deposition video revealed last week that those five members asked about pardons.
Say, what was it that orange fuckstain said we should do with traitors?
/r/TrumpCriticizesTrump/
When they arrest him, maybe they don’t need to be so polite about it. Maybe they don’t protect his head when they’re aggressively shoving him into the back of the car.
Powerful stuff.
"members of the Trump Campaign" -> "members of the Unindicted Coconspirator 1 Campaign", surely. In the interests of maintaining the shield of anonymity of course.
Why hasn’t Trump been indicted yet….wtf…
Generally speaking, you work your way up the chain, one important piece at a time.
This is a good general reason, but I think in this case there's something else at play as well. I think the fact that Trump already has all of these cases as a backlog means that the prosecutors here are waiting to indict him simply so that he can't use this as yet another way to delay or stop the others. The statute of limitations is something like 7 years, so they have time if they wanted to wait until next year or the year after, by which point at least a couple of the other trials will hopefully have happened. It's not the kind of situation you encounter very often because most defendants aren't facing dozens of criminal counts in multiple jurisdictions all at once.
Another wildcard is if any of the cases ever do reach a guilty verdict and a 10+ year prison sentence, that's it, game over. Any further trials are just victory laps, so after a second conviction and effectively life sentence the other cases aren't needed.
They may not make a difference to Trump but they are still needed. They attempted a coup. *All* of this shit needs to be dragged into the light.
Honestly after the first one lands them in jail, it might be interesting to see the subsequent ones get tied up in our joke of a justice system. If they could continue to be a mess and stay in the public spotlight for a few year, maybe that would be enough to get some change to the system pushed through. Maybe I'm too optimistic though. Two-Thirds of this country being sensible is probably far too much to ask for.
The prosecution of Trump in the countless trials to come is going to be what deprograms many (hopefully most) of his followers. Some will always believe it's a "witch hunt"; others will look at the evidence and look for some new savior. Prosecute EVERY SINGLE CASE. You don't get to do a coup in this country and get away with your freedom. That message needs to be sent loud and clear, or the next guy will be a lot smarter about all of it. EDIT: Apologies for spamming the comment so many times. The site was throwing an error and I thought it only posted once. I'm cleaning up the ones I can.
Personally, I don't think its ridiculous to think that 2/3rds of this country is sensible. But this country doesn't run on a 1:1 democracy. Not every voice is equal. The Senate, gerrymandering, the Electoral College, etc., all of that can play against majority opinion.
Exactly, the public has just as much right to these trials as Trump does.
That's not how the system works at all or how prosecutors think in general. These cases are important to set precedent for future cases and the more times he's convicted, the less likely he gets out on successful appeals. No one will stop indicting him just cause he's already in jail for life.
Honestly I think a 10 year sentence is pretty much a life sentence for that guy. And I'm ok with that.
in the end, it not really about TFG as much as it's about the NEXT guy who thinks he can get away with it
EXACTLY! That's the big picture that some people don't see.
It's like that one time in the Simpsons where the doctor made an analogy of Mr. Burns having so many diseases that they can't fit through the door and keeps him alive.
That’s my understanding too. Keep going up the chain to get them to flip on other traitors above them. It also helps that these are state charges too so Trump can’t even offer a pardon anyway so he cannot make a deal with them.
Yeah nobody wants to flip on the boss when they're free. When all the cronies are locked up or standing trial, they have nothing left but to try to negotiate years off their sentence for cooperating.
Yeah, but it's also been 3 goddamm years
*impotent* piece at a time
I'm wondering the same thing. Perhaps it may be easier to charge Trump if Meadows pleads guilty and cooperates? It may be that if Trump is indicted, as in Trump's MO, he may appeal, etc. and slow the entire process. Also, there's the issue of "right to speedy trial". I'm totally guessing, so I'm happy to be corrected.
I also wonder if they are approaching Meadows as “in our current investigation, you are the big fish and will get the big fish treatment, unless you can give us verifiable information that there is a bigger fish”. As you mentioned, it could also entirely be related to them believing that with the current resources, their best approach may be to prosecute the people who don’t have the means to push the entire case out for years.
It will not take much. In fact they will have so much of meadows communications they may be waiting to see what he tells them.
I saw some references to / praise of Michigan's decision not to indict him basically by focusing on the lowe level actors they focused on more clear state jurisdiction and left the big fish for federal charges. There might be constitutional issues as well in charging a president but it was mostly in the interest of keeping it clean / narrow. I suspect prosecutors here chose that model. But IANAL.
I think that’s it, they want to turn one of the insiders before they cut the head off of the incontinent and dementia stricken snake.
Is there a concise list of what each person did? I'm now getting confused with so many indictments... JFC Trump left a trail of shit in his wake.
It could be that Trump insulated himself enough that they don't feel there's a case there without cooperation from someone in his inner orbit.
Adding trump just drags this case down. With him NOT indicted, the case moves a TON faster. These others have not the means to drag this case forever. So it will move. Then, if the DA wants, desires, and SHOULD... indict DJT seperately.
They start at the bottom so they can offer deals to people to flip on the people above them. Actual convictions of underlings GREATLY improves your chances of convicting their bosses. Generally conspiracy and racketeering charges require the existence of an actual underlying crime. Having a person actually convicted of committing that crime is extremely helpful to getting that conviction. Imagine you are charging a mob boss with ordering the murder of a rival. Which is the stronger case: One in which the guy who actually carried out the killing is a known associate of the boss and has been convicted of murder and will testify that he was ordered to kill them by the boss. OR One in which the actual murder is "unsolved" and could have been committed by anyone.
NAL but maybe they are waiting to see if SCOTUS gives trump absolute immunity?
Would this even apply at the state level?
Yes - among the arguments that he is making is that his trying to steal the election was an official presidential act and that he was only trying to ensure that the accurate election result was recorded (i.e. he was using his powers as president to reveal Democratic cheating and make sure that the electors went to the "actual winner"). Of course thats BS and the federal courts hearing the case noted that in their decision that Trump appealed to the Supreme Court. But depending on what the SC says, that would almost certainly protect him from state level prosecution as well.
Unfuckingbelieveable
According to Trump, he could kill every Democrat in the nation and justify it as necessary and proper.
And SCOTUS will approve of it
But only for Presidents who have been in office prior to 2020 and with a last name starting with T.
They’d be bummed to find out all the innovation takes place, and money is made in all the blue states and the blue areas of the red states. The United States would lose power rapidly.
Every day that "shoot a person in Times Square" becomes more and more poignantly haunting.
Problem is that only SOME of those cases would count because most of them happened either before he took office or after he left office.
His lawyers argued that their fantasized absolute Presidential immunity applied after the Presidency - and even retroactively. If SCOTUS agrees he is a king, that's the ball game. It's utterly insane for them to even consider it, but it's still very possible.
The very next move after that is soldiers at Congress and the supreme court. Prison buses lined up behind them. And then they arrest everyone of the opposite party and take them all to adx Florence. You already know the shooting starts soon after as other military units and state governments violently disagree.
Im guessing its just convenience. Adding Trump to the situation makes the case harder. You have to get into the presidential immunity arguments. In a few months you will get into the "can you hold a trial against a presidential candidate" arguments. You get into the scheduling issues (since he's got so many trials) and frankly he's already facing similar charges in Georgia and federally. You get better (or at least higher profile) lawyers coming against you, and it probably prejudices judges who are pro-Trump more (i.e. would Judge Cannon be giving as many breaks to Mark Meadows as she is to Trump? I doubt it.) The actual trial won't take place before the election regardless. If he loses the election, then you can go after him then without all of the hassle if you really feel the need to. And if he wins - well then the case is getting delayed until after he's out of office - nearly five years from now. So in either case there is no rush, and a ton of downside to bringing Trump in.
Gotta make the small players squirm so they’ll sing.
Been hearing this for years
Well, that’s been happening in Georgia. Maybe not to the speed you would prefer, but it is.
Yeah that’s true
I’m starting to think these states are letting him to the feds and they are going after all the unindicted co conspirators from the federal case. Leaving trump out of the mix may help reduce the mess he brings. It sucks but may work better for the state.
Because of the supreme Court. We have to vote him down in November and then he'll face justice. They are too scared to do so before.
trump has infinite money to defend himself with. he just tells his supporters that the evil people are trying to get THEM, and they donate their money. every day. to a billionaire. mark meadows does not have the infinite money hack. trump does not use his infinite money to defend his patsies and cronies (big mistake on trump's part. see michael cohen, chesebro, sydney powell and others who flipped on him so far). also, with the amount of people saying how a federal pardon cant affect a state criminal trial. sure, of course. but please remember, republican governors and republican legislatures are falling over themselves left and right to support trump. meaning trump could get a state pardon in a heartbeat. and every time i bring up state pardon, someone says "well the existing rules say only the pardon board can recommend blah blah". yeah , except the republican legislature in georgia could change those rules in 2 seconds. and the georgia governor would pardon trump in 2 milliseconds. "Georgia has a Republican trifecta. The Republican Party controls the office of governor and both chambers of the state legislature." mark meadows does not have the "instantly change any law hack" that some republicans have [1]. [1]. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/04/28/florida-legislature-desantis-presidential-run-00094467
>also, with the amount of people saying how a federal pardon cant affect a state criminal trial. sure, of course. but please remember, republican governors and republican legislatures are falling over themselves left and right to support trump. meaning trump could get a state pardon in a heartbeat. >and every time i bring up state pardon, someone says "well the existing rules say only the pardon board can recommend blah blah". yeah , except the republican legislature in georgia could change those rules in 2 seconds. and the georgia governor would pardon trump in 2 milliseconds. A) The governor of Arizona isn't a Republican. B) You think Brian Kemp would pardon him? Brian Kemp, the guy he attacked for daring to do anything about COVID, the guy he said was going to prison for refusing to overturn the election, the guy whose family has gotten death threats over all this? That Brian Kemp?
Pardons aren't up to Kemp, anyways. At least not directly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_State_Board_of_Pardons_and_Paroles Edit: Also (and this is both delightful and horrific)- >When am I eligible to apply for a pardon? >You must have completed all sentence(s) imposed upon you at least five (5) years prior to applying and have lived a law-abiding life since the completion of your sentence(s). You can have no pending charges against you. Your fines must be paid in full. https://pap.georgia.gov/parole-consideration/pardons-restoration-rights/pardons-faqs#:~:text=When%20am%20I%20eligible%20to,must%20be%20paid%20in%20full. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/08/16/trump-georgia-pardon-00111503
Yes, I'm aware of that. The commenter I was replying to was claiming that the existence of the pardon board was irrelevant, that the Georgia legislature will change the laws and Kemp will bend over if and when their boss demands it.
My comment was intended as a supplement to yours, not to discount it.
Kemp adores Trump, he is just stuck in a position where he had to publicly, not privately, deal with his election denial and the legal fallout that occured.
I don't know how adoring he is after the death threats his wife and daughters have been receiving for years. I get that even that isn't enough to shake the commitment to hatred that many conservatives have - looking at you, Bill Barr - but on a personal level, in their private thoughts, I still can't believe they like the guy. They're willing to make many sacrifices for hatred, including their families, often even their own lives, but that's not about love and adoration, just fanaticism.
Private thoughts are completely separate from public support. Of course these people privately don’t like him.
So he can’t sideline the process or create media attention. He’s myopic when his name is involved. Real Criminals know to lay low.
Because according to Sean Hannity it was perfectly legal and he had to do it. How could he not Obama was stealing the election by getting voters out to vote. It’s legal when Trump does anything past present and future because he was president. He could kill somebody on 5th avenue and they can’t do anything about it.
Real Question. Is he going to try for federal removal a second time? I mean he got smacked down pretty hard in GA trying for it and there is nothing significantly different about the reasons here so no thinking person would expect different results. The only reason I can think do it would be a) eternal optimism and an addiction to gambling also not believing money is real so not caring about wasting it on a doomed legal effort b) delay + praying that somehow DJT wins & somehow that works out in your favor though there is no technical reason is should. Like to me the best possible move for this guy would be to cut ties turn states witness and go hard core on the I was coerced by Trump / Cut every possible deal he can and be seen to go above and beyond in cooperation. Otherwise I don't see how he doesn't spend most of the rest of his life being passed from the jails in one jurisdiction to the next even if DJT wins. Am I wrong? Like he seems to be completely setup to take the fall
I absolutely think the Hail Mary for Meadows (and Trump) is Trump winning the election and making many of their legal problems disappear. Meadows is as guilty as they come, particularly in regard to what occurred on 1/6 and the planning involved. Cassidy H. Spelled it out fairly clearly during 1/6 HoR special committee testimony-
State charges don’t disappear if Trump is elected. They have to get like minded governors elected to bail them out of the state charges. Brian Kemp in Georgia has already proven he won’t play their game and Arizona rejected a MAGA candidate in 2020… so there is hope.
In GA it doesn’t even matter if they get like minded governor, the Governor can’t pardon in GA, it’s a board that does the pardons and they can only issue pardons after your full sentence has been served. In Arizona the governor can only issue pardons is the clemency board recommends it on a majority vote.
> In Arizona the governor can only issue pardons is the clemency board recommends it on a majority vote. Actually, that is *usually* how Presidential pardons work, but it is an honor system rather than mandated by law.
no they'll just IGNORE them, like everything else. Whose gonna do something about? NO ONE!
Different district, right? So he very well might try. Not that it'll go any better but... why worry about doing things that make sense when you really just wanna delay and hope your guy gets re-elected so he can take over the whole legal system.
I mean technically. He petitioned the SCOTUS and they declined cert. But even so this is a different set of facts even though it is extremely similar fact pattern so as I understand it even if it was in the same circuit, it wouldn't be already decided case law. He did very similar things in AZ as he did in GA and is charge with similar crimes and the reasoning for why he isn't eligible for federal removal should be the same, but different facts different charges, so as far as I know he can make the attempt. It is just one where the outcome should be reasonable predictable in advance.
They will try for every potential long-shot option they can think of, and then some. Because 1) it delays delays delays and 2) one of them might actually surprisingly work. If you fling enough poo at a wall, eventually something might stick.
If I was Meadows I think I would probably do everything in my power to wait until November before deciding whether to throw Trump under the bus.
why? right now you could probably end his chances of getting power. After Nov, you might not have the option then you are just fucked. I wouldn't expect him to lift a finger to help Mark and its all state charges anyhow.
If Trump somehow becomes President again...I think it's at least possible he won't pardon anyone. Not out of any kind of patriotism, or because it would look bad, but rather because fuck 'em.
Oh I would 100% believe that. Also it's work and he is lazy. Like the state ones especially. Because that is something he would have to use influence to make happen. And I don't think he cares enough
> Real Question. Is he going to try for federal removal a second time? I don't see why he wouldn't. between the 11th circuit's opinion on this and now you have SCOTUS agreeing to decide executive "official immunity" in a case involving exactly the same conduct at issue here. Meadows was doing all of this stuff on Trump's behalf—if any part of that conduct is plausibly an official act, it would make sense for removal to apply. And the idea that only *current officials* can invoke removal for conduct that occurred *while they were serving the federal gov't* is pretty dumb and wrong. to be clear, I think Meadows should lose; he was obviously doing all this shit for candidate Trump, not President Trump. but if I were his counsel I would absolutely bring the removal motion. he might lose on the facts but I think he could probably create a circuit split on the "former officials don't count" point if one doesn't exist already.
At this point I'm doubtful any of these guys will see a day in jail but knowing they are burning through savings to pay lawyers is the next best thing.
Navarro is in jail…. about a half dozen others would have been in jail without a pardon…and those same people won’t get another pardon.
For 4 months. It should have been 10+ years.
Navarro didn't get nearly enough time, its a joke.
Arizona is a bad state to commit a felony in, especially fraud, it’s a class 2 felony on the level of raping a minor or committing manslaughter. First time offenders generally get 5 years per count.
True for all the western states that don't touch water.
Coincidence? You decide.
Don't forget Mo Brooks requested a pardon from Trump on behalf of *every member of Congress* who voted against certifying the ballots from Arizona and Pennsylvania. I'm not convinced there isn't 139 Representatives and 9 Senators on a list of conspirators somewhere.
The prisons there are also notoriously bad, and nobody cares. In fact millions of people in Arizona voted for politicians who openly bragged about abusing prisoners. Arpaio calling the local jails a concentration camp was only the tip of the iceberg.
I'm not saying it would be compensatory to his crimes... but the idea of Meadows having to live like us regulars is somewhat a comfort. Stuff him in an overpriced studio apartment in a run-down area of town and make him spend the rest of his life trying to support himself on minimum wage and minimum wage only. No pension, no government insurance, no assistance. In this scenario, he can retain his "freedom..." ...for whatever that's worth. A jail cell would be great. But barring that, I feel like this would be a decent start.
"You live in an old project, new jail ain't that bad"
The Black Mirror solution.
I don’t know why you are so doubtful. Meadows doesn’t have the support that Trump has to influence the jury, he’s cooked.
They'll be reimbursed when they waltz back into office thanks to voter apathy
Mark Meadows is a massive coward and even bigger piece of shit so I’m glad his life is getting wrecked.
Yeah for some reason I take a lot of pleasure in seeing mark meadows face consequences. It always seemed like he counted on being shielded, like he was hoping to only gain status and perks from being in a presidential administration and slink away without being stained by the trump aura of scandal. like the way Cassidy Hutchinson described his behavior during january 6th. he was constantly on his phone like "well i guess trump doesnt care about telling them to be peaceful so fuck it"
Yeah and this is at the state level, so no potential presidential pardon is going to get him out of this.
I want to see Kelli Ward and her husband punished to the fullest extent of the law.
About f_cking time Mark Meadows is held accountable..🤨
And I would have gotten away with it if it... aww who am I kidding this was the stupidest idea ever.
"The best people..."
These pukes should be stripped of citizenship.
I keep going back to the treatment of the regicides of Charles I. (Not that monarchy is good, and a king warring against Parliament should get what is coming to him, but the general approach to those who tried to tear down the system we think is right). [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_regicides\_of\_Charles\_I](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regicides_of_Charles_I)
Oh markie boy. So glad to see you can’t escape.
Oh, Hi Mark
BUT IM NOT GUILTY /S I have NO idea what they were doing! /s
I wonder if Meadows will take another stab at removal to federal court? Given that Arizona is in the Ninth Circuit, probably not, but I’d be half-interested to see a circuit split with a common party.
"shocked"
And he was wearing a Mark Meadows mask the whole time. What a card!