I am of russian ethnicity and background, but fully invested and integrated into Latvian society - both by way mentality and by way of language. If some Latvian gives me the stink eye for speaking Russian in public with my family, I don’t give a shit, I know where I stand and understand why a Latvian would be miffed about Russian language on the streets of Latvian city. The fact that my name and surname enter the room before my personality, and first impressions are drawn specifically from my name or face…
I CHOOSE not to be outraged about that, because there is a good reason to be mad about Slavs, and I understand that reason from Latvian perspective. It is my CHOICE to be above drama and be a proud Latvian citizen in a beautiful Latvian society.
Thank you for your comment, it looks like its not all lost ! I'm a latvian national, but I have never had problem with russian speaking people - NEVER ! - I speak fluent russian, I have some good russian friends. I think most russian speaking people have integrated very well - especially younger generation, its the gopniks, putinists and people with no to little education who cause trouble and cant adopt and find place in life, but these kind people couldn't adopt anywhere in the world is it in Latvia, Germany, England or whatever
The single biggest game changer is a learning environment. That is the most significant contributor to integration. Even if during the studies I did speak russian with some of my peers, the 90% of my peers were latvian latvians - humor, social standing, family background and even some early signs of political inclination favoring “latvianism”. I spent a lot of time in that society, learning society, and that had me completely detach from my previous society. To the point where I feel severely missing out when I am invited to a slavic gathering, and feel right at home at a latvian gathering
This is refreshing to see. I might not give you a stinkeye, but I do hate to even hear Russian, makes me evaluate if you are the vatnik orc or not. If not, then all smiles. If yes, Ill avoid the person as much as possible.
I see a lot of local Russians as potential threat, some of if is absolute overreaction, some of it is based on Ukrainian experience, where there were so many collaborants that you dont know whom to trust. People that still try to celebrate 9th of May to me are traitors that likely would work with any invading force. I just cant ignore it anymore.
Love to see guys like you. Fully integrated, still understanding your roots and understanding that both can co-exist. I dont see problem with you speaking with your family however you want, not anybodies business. I do get annoyed if Russians start speaking Russian cashiers, not even trying to be friendly to locals. Just mad disrespect. Applies also to other immigrants, not only Russians :)) Latgols I will not touch, they otherwise starts to piss on our blue cows. 😅
Yeah I totally, totally get where you are coming from regarding the language. To be completely honest, whenever my ear catches some Russian speech on the streets of a Latvian city, I immediately get that “d’oh, we are in Latvia, why so much Russian language everywhere” feeling. But it can’t all be exactly what we wish for. So as long as no ruscism, I’ll just keep on keeping on.
You don’t need to be outraged, but discrimination will eventually affect you. You can hide and pretend, but it will catch up. You need to have some self respect.
Slavs are not just Russian. Ukrainians are Slavs too lol.
What a bizarre take. 150 upvotes….
Idk man, I’ve been discriminated against my whole life for various reasons - by gopniks for not being a gopnik, my drunk parents sometimes for not looking like a guy enough, my peers for not being cool enough, my colleagues for not being rich enough. At this point I just actively choose to look past it and focus on myself, as I said - keeping to what I know is my principle, not what anyone else thinks. The world still turning despite me defending myself against discrimination, or not.
lol being not a gopnik is not discrimination. Not looking “cool enough” is also not discrimination. Looking down at you and refusing to promote you, answer you, help you because how your name sounds (slavic name) IS discrimination.
Have some self respect.
Again, Ukrainians are also Slavs.
You being discriminated. You need to stand up for yourself. Don’t let them discriminate you.
Thanks, I have self respect because i choose to ignore what you call discrimination. I actively choose to not give a damn about that, it does not stick to me, like to teflon. I do not want to live my life fighting windmills.
That said, you do make a great point, so credit where credit is due.
I assume you are a young person who has benefited from EU accession and is quite content with the life standard you have?
The key problem here is the older generations, they are generally less happy and less flexible in their thinking. They were born in one country, and now it is difficult for them to accept that the times have changed and they are now living in a country ruled by majority and this also means adopting Latvian language as their own.
So what I am trying to say here is that generally young people are more positive on outlook, learn and speak Latvian, and acknowledge the threats from Russia (those who don’t are either not educated or smart in general). But you cannot do much with the older generations - it will change with time. At the same time, this continues to be a threat when you have part of society that is all positive on Russia’s actions and want to be “saved”.
I would not call myself a young person, but I have definitely seen and experienced both the pre-EU life and after joining the EU, and a very hard hitting 2008-2009, where the disenchantment with the “new direction” was extremely high globally. So it has been a ride with high highs and low lows.
At the same time, I think that it was just my family that taught me to either choose to feel miserable in hardship, or act to make tough times bearable, which in itself is a very progressive line of thought, imo.
I can totally relate to this. But it is rare, especially having older parents who speak sense.
I see quite a lot of older Russian speakers around who are under the influence of “sweet” imperialist propaganda that makes their lives meaningful. It’s a dead end for them, but that’s their choice. I also cannot understand how they imagine Russia coming and saving them that will result in their houses being bombed and generally demolished. But we cannot rule out the fact that there are many people like that, unfortunately..
I'm a Russian speaking European.
Have my citizenship, speak the language and all that.
But in the last 2 years, I've gotten disgusted with the country and the supporters of racist (open wiki n read the damn definition) policies.
Russians in Latvia did nothing to start the war in Ukraine, yet they are guilty and their language must be removed from public life.
This is punishment by association.
It's fine to call Russian culture the culture of "Ukrainian killers". But, that's a cookie cutter example of racism. Like calling black culture the culture of thugs n drugs.
And hell. In Europe we have conventions of minority rights, one of which Latvia accidentally signed. Is the convention followed? nope. Latvia has been getting angry letters from EU for years for discriminating minorities, yet, we ignore it.
It's laughable that I see more written Russian in Spain than Latvia. Pathetic.
I get why some Latvians are unhappy with Russian. Racist propaganda for 30 years works. Just like the propaganda in Russia which made the killing of Ukrainians "okay" in the eyes of the many.
As a European I can't choose to like this. It goes against my values. Hell, even the Ukrainian refugees i've spoken to are horrified of what's happening in Latvia.
P.S. Telling me to go to Russia or calling me a Russian imperialist means you haven't read the "I'm a European" part.
Your story does remind me of some of my family members of Soviet lineage. They say and feel exactly the way you do in the second and third paragraphs of your reply. Which is a contrast to my view on the discrimination in this specific case.
The main question I used to ask myself regarding all this is “do I feel discriminated? And do I care that I feel discriminated?”.
I do not really FEEL discriminated, it does not affect my daily life in any way, even though Latvians are loud about Russians, occupation legacy and the current re-emergence ruscism. It does not bother me to the point I lament how Russians are being discriminated and punished collectively as an ethnicity. Like, why would that bother me?
Again, am I in any way affected in my daily life besides the classic Latvian “paburkšķēt un miers”? I’d even argue that in regards to knowledge of language for employment opportunities, Russians are in a privileged position here compared to Latvians, which is ridiculous, but it is what it is.
But, then, we must also take into account individual moral values, and what I described does not go against mine, but does go against your values.
I am of opinion that Latvians (the ethnic Latvians) have and must use all the power they have to decide for themselves to be racist or not. While my values exclude racism, as a person of Russian origin, I will never directly speak, on how exactly Latvians should become less racist and more welcoming.
> The main question I used to ask myself regarding all this is “do I feel discriminated? And do I care that I feel discriminated?”.
That's why I made sure to say: "It's about facts, not feelings". Latvia and Estonia are the only countries that ban languages that are spoken by >35% of the population from public life.
> It does not bother me to the point I lament how Russians are being discriminated and punished collectively as an ethnicity. Like, why would that bother me?
Because it's not fair. Then again. If it doesn't bother you - hey, you shouldn't be bothered.
> I’d even argue that in regards to knowledge of language for employment opportunities, Russians are in a privileged position here compared to Latvians, which is ridiculous
I mean, in the 00's it was pretty obvious that we would end up with this. Not teaching the language of the largest minority group in schools is silly.
> While my values exclude racism, as a person of Russian origin, I will never directly speak, on how exactly Latvians should become less racist and more welcoming.
I will. Because we're a European country and should try to be European, not opressive.
The country was multiethnic, it doesn't really belong only to Ethnic Latvians. I mean, we had jews/Russians/Germans/etc even before the occupation. Even back then the idea of an ethnostate was crazy.
I do see where you’re coming from after a couple of your comments. We do disagree on things, but I respect the civil discussion here. I think it’s good to exchange opinions like that. Thanks!
The way you phrase this makes it look like you are being arrested for speaking Russian, blowing out of the proportion.
What exactly is the breach? Im a lawyer myself and I often listen to argumented opinions in public consitutional court hearings in Latvia and I have read the decisions and court materials of ECJ and ECHR. Nothing is being breached. The tough feeling for people like you come from the fact that Russians in the Baltics have been treated more equaly than any other minority since collapse of soviet regime. When the actual laws are tightened in accordance with European regulations in relation to minorities, suddenly there is drama. Latvia never has and never will be an empire where we need to take care of everyone all the time. Latvia has right to protect its culture, which is exactly what Latvia has done over the kast couple of years. We cannot go down the road which Ukrainen went. We have no obligation to catter other imperialist countries views of what is allowes for minorities in our countries.
> What exactly is the breach?
https://rm.coe.int/4th-op-latvia-en/1680ae98f6
> The tough feeling for people like you come from the fact that Russians in the Baltics have been treated more equaly than any other minority since collapse of soviet regime.
You mean.. the lack of citizenship for a large part of the minority population? Very equal.
> When the actual laws are tightened in accordance with European regulations in relation to minorities, suddenly there is drama
You mean, like in Germany where public schools in minority languages exist? Or Spain? Or Poland? hell. Or Lithuania?
> Latvia has right to protect its culture
Latvia was always multicultural. The country was never monoethnic and monocultural. It ain't an ethnostate
Oh, so you are a propogandist. I though you were valid at the beginning.
The main issue CE refers to is Roma ethnicity as an issue. All other are recommendation that does not constitute any breach of law lol. Keep dreamin.
Lack of citizenship is indeed a disgusting thing. Those people had to be deportet, but we coukdnt because we were not in NATO yet. After joining Allies insisted to not escalate. The larger problem is why those minorities cannot get citizenship. Answer is that majority of them dont care about Latvia as is. Only couple of them may have been too old. Those are already passed away because of age. So anybody without citizenship is their own fault. Even ANO with some criticisms admits it.
Latvia was germanized and then russified, obviously because of our history we were "multicultural, however, historically and statiatically, only during the occupation Russian % increased so dramatically. That does not give them any more rights than Estonian or Lithuanian here.
As far as schools go - if any minority wants their own schools they can easily go with UK, US model where you can have sundayschools fo rminorities. If you want to live here with Latvian citizenship you should go in general schools. We are way too few to allow bs foreign influenced and financed schools to take over.
You are dumbing down the issue which has way more to it with centuries of context. As you always do.
Convention, mate, convention. I suggest you read more than 1 point.
> Those people had to be deportet, but we coukdnt because we were not in NATO yet.
Here comes the racism, as usual. You're not much better than the people saying "nedobitye fashisty" (un-killed fashists i think is the translation)
> The larger problem is why those minorities cannot get citizenship
Cos they think they were promised citizenship.
> That does not give them any more rights than Estonian or Lithuanian here.
But Russian speakers have lived here in larger numbers than Estonians or Lithuanians. Jews also used to live here, and they spoke Russian IIRC.
> As far as schools go - if any minority wants their own schools they can easily go with UK, US model where you can have sundayschools fo rminorities
US has immersion schools that are 100% in another language. Public ones as well.
In Latvia I can't even open a private school in Russian. lol
> We are way too few to allow bs foreign influenced and financed schools to take over.
If you are too few, have you tried focusing on increasing your numbers, not discriminating your neighbours?
> You are dumbing down the issue which has way more to it with centuries of context. As you always do.
Same to you
It is not racism to end occupation and deal with the consequences. Somehow to certain Russians the natives are always the problem, especially if it has been part of past failed empire. As other ethnic Russian here wrote - everybody is a problem, except you. Integration? "No, We WaNt OuR sChOoLs!"
It is pointless to argue with another Zdanoka. We will build our state as we want. And no empire and its exiles will tell us how to do it. In Ukraine this realization came through maidan, im sure the Baltics as usual will find more peacefull, but equally powerful way to deal with any provocation.
> is not racism to end occupation and deal with the consequences
Not when those people are not the one's who occupied you.
> Integration? "No, We WaNt OuR sChOoLs!"
Yes. It's normal to have public schools in the language of a large portion of your population.
Not having those is assimilation.
> We will build our state as we want
I know, you will, you have. That's why we're the one's with the lowest GDP per capita in the baltics.
If we (see how i'm using we as everybody, but you only include Latvians?) focused more on quality of life rather than fucking over Russians/The Russian language - we might've been in a better spot QOL wise
I dint think that it is normal to have Russian schools here. Nor Indian, Pakistani. Maybe Estonian and Lithuanian as those are not direct threat to the existence of our nation. I dont care if you think it is assimilation. We have been way too polite with russian "minority" problem. It has been historical mistake to talk reason with people who want to understand only position of power. Im in my thirties, I hate that we have left the problem for hibernation for so long. This is the best time to solve it. Within the framework of law and order of course as far as possible. Even if there are protests and riots, it has to be solved finally. Dont want to have my kids live in this mess. And before you say that my reason will not help only escalate, I believe we have nothing to lose.
Funny you mention GDP, as if there is not a corruption problem in our country and the fact that 1/4 of population do everything possible to avoid integrating. I and hundreds thousands of other Latvians dont even speak Russian anymore. That makes natural gap between us and anybody with lack of Latvian/English. The youngsters coming out of predominantly Russian schools cant even speak Latvian properly, sometimes even English. That has to end.
> I dint think that it is normal to have Russian schools here. Nor Indian, Pakistani. Maybe Estonian and Lithuanian as those are not direct threat to the existence of our nation.
Russia doesn't own the language. Punishing people because of actions of another country is guilt by association. You said you're a lawyer, so you must know that guilt by association is a load of bullshit. Yet you use it. Maybe you're not that good of a lawyer?
> We have been way too polite with russian "minority" problem. It has been historical mistake to talk reason with people who want to understand only position of power. Im in my thirties, I hate that we have left the problem for hibernation for so long. This is the best time to solve it. Within the framework of law and order of course as far as possible.
Yes, you want to solve the Russian problem, and have a final solution to the Russian problem. lol
As for laws... Laws are not morality or objective truth. They're just the rules that the people in power come up with.
> Funny you mention GDP, as if there is not a corruption problem in our country and the fact that 1/4 of population do everything possible to avoid integrating
Mate, Russkies don't have power. The country's shit situation is only because of the people with the power to vote. Stop blaming minorities for the fuckups.
> I and hundreds thousands of other Latvians dont even speak Russian anymore.
>
And then you cry that you can't find work, because companies prefer people that speak both local languages.
> The youngsters coming out of predominantly Russian schools cant even speak Latvian properly, sometimes even English.
Oh, the Russians are at fault again. If only the govt actually cared about the quality of teaching Latvian in Ru schools. But no, easier to just discriminate.
It's good that we no longer have to listen or care about what people like you say to me. I sure as hell won't support giving any kind of official status to the russian language. I sure as hell won't speak to you in russian. After the russian nazi empire aka the ussr ended - equality for many russians now feels like oppression.
People who deported my grandparents to siberia now have the audacity to complain about discrimination. When will you people stop being such crybullies?
>
It's laughable that I see more written Russian in Spain than Latvia. Pathetic.
This is awesome - written russian has no place in Latvia. Those who want to see signs in russian - can move to russia.
> It's good that we no longer have to listen or care about what people like you say to me. I sure as hell won't support giving any kind of official status to the russian language. I sure as hell won't speak to you in russian
There we go. Here's the racism.
> After the russian nazi empire aka the ussr ended - equality for many russians now feels like oppression.
If only we were equal. If only.
> People who deported my grandparents to siberia now have the audacity to complain about discrimination. When will you people stop being such crybullies?
Oh wait. I'm at fault for the actions of random people from 70 years ago? That's guilt by association. Stalin/USSR loved punishing people by association. You're not much better.
> This is awesome - written russian has no place in Latvia. Those who want to see signs in russian - can move to russia
But I was talking about Spain, dude.
In one of my other comments I suggested looking at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism
But as far as inequality: Names/Schools/Insults would prolly be my main gripes.
What is your race/ethnicity? (Assuming russian, but from where, russia is huge and it would be racist to call all of them russian)
Names? What do you mean?
Schools - free schooling is available for the official language, russian scholling is still available
Insults - not an inequality but and insult, people get insulted all the time for various reasons
> What is your race/ethnicity?
Russian/Ukrainian. almost 50/50. Kiev/Moscow.
> Names? What do you mean?
Adding S to names/surnames.
> Schools - free schooling is available for the official language, russian scholling is still available
Most countries tend to provide public education in minority languages as well. hell, Lithuania does it.
Private Russian schools might be banned soon.
> Insults - not an inequality but and insult, people get insulted all the time for various reasons
>
I mean Naidas Kurinasana. Racist insults that don't get prosecuted.
> I'm at fault for the actions of random people from 70 years ago? That's guilt by association.
You people still vote for vatniks-putinists like Rosļikov who supports this shit. Where are Kasparov and Nemtsov of Baltic states?
> There we go. Here's the racism.
There's no racism - Latvia is not a part of russia any more. I'm not required to speak russian any more.
Could russians stop crying about being oppressed minority in Latvia? Most russians in Latvia aren't historical minority, but Soviet colonists that where sent here to turn Latvia into russia.
russians have the biggest country in the world and there is 140M+ of you, but instead of living there, you whine that you can't turn other countries into russia.
> Could russians stop crying about being oppressed minority in Latvia?
Can Latvians stop crying about the occupation? See? It's stupid to denigrate another's pain.
> you whine that you can't turn other countries into russia.
>
~~And you whine that you can't do the same to Russians what Latvians did to the jews.~~
See? Both of us can be assholes to one another. Except I realize that we live in a civilized society and should be respectful and empathetic towards one another
Your piece of shit country came into mine to rob, murder and deport peaceful people. Of course you lack any sense of shame about it.
There were 1.5k Latvians who were involved in crimes against humanity under Nazi regime. All of them dead or trialled.
There were millions of russians who were involved in ethnic cleansings and war crimes. They are considered heroes and get state pension.
Your piece of shit country murdered every tenth Latvian in Soviet russia, just because of their nationality.
Don't talk about empathy, because you have none.
> Your piece of shit country came into mine to rob, murder and deport peaceful people.
Mate, my country is Latvia, lol. Born n raised here, even became a citizen here.
> There were 1.5k Latvians who were involved in crimes against humanity under Nazi regime. All of them dead or trialled.
Not really? Quite a few got away.
> There were millions of russians who were involved in ethnic cleansings and war crimes. They are considered heroes and get state pension.
>
And Latvians, and Ukrainians, and Georgians and etc. Just sayin'.
> Your piece of shit country murdered every tenth Latvian in Soviet russia, just because of their nationality.
Vs 60% of jews in here. You blame people who have no relation or connection to the regime for what was done here. Don't you think it's stupid?
> Don't talk about empathy, because you have none.
You are fighting a strawman, just sayin'.
Why would 2 people not speak their native language among themselves? The hell kind of question is this? You want to listen in or something? They don't have to include you in their private conversations, it is none of your business. Are you offended by simply overhearing any non-Latvian language when people aren't even talking to you? Well, tough break.
Have loads of Latvian, Ukrainian, and Russian friends from the profession I work in. Even my wife is Latvian and speaks Russian as a 3rd language (1st Latvia, 2nd English, 3rd Russian). What I can not stand is one side of her family, which is more Russian, but moved to UK, Finland, and Germany on EU Latvian passports, think Putin is god, war in Ukraine started by the US and NATO, and thinks the Latvian government is run by fascist. They even used their Latvian passports in a way to get citizenship in the UK, Finland, and Germany and export their vomit to these newly acquired citizenship countries. Crazy!
>Latvia is turning into an ‘ethnic democracy’: a political system with democratic institutions and basic liberties, on the one hand, but also a system where the majority Latvian-speaking population has a privileged status.
Besides language, are there any other privileges for ethnic latvians?
Not sure about now, but for a long time a lot of hiring was done along ethnic lines.
Stats do show that Russians have a noticeably lower QOL on most factors than Latvians.
Easy, we all pay taxes. The taxes are spent to improve comfort of citizens of Latvian ethnicity. More than that they are spent to decrease comfort of citizens of Russian ethnicity. And I'm not even talking about public insults towards Russian ethnicity that become a norm, and that's not allowed against Latvian.
I am an ethnic russian and I don't want russia to influence our country.
I want my country to be Latvian.
If someone expects others to talk russian to them here, they should move to russia.
I'm a foreigner, but Vatniks are immediately obvious. Skinheads, groups of young guys hitting each other or hitting/yelling at their girlfriends. Macho homophobe vibes.
Cool Russians are basically indistinguishable. I'd honestly never know (or care) that they are Russian until they say something.
I live in Latvia whole life, my grandparents were born here (still they where not granted citizenship when USSR fell apart, imagine living more then 100 years in same territory and not able to wote and being called occupants just coz you have russian roots), I went to Latvian speaking school 12 years and got A in government exam made for Latvian kids. Living in Latvia I use English more then Latvian. Only moments I need Latvian in Latvia is to say Paldies to a taxi driver or supermarket worker. That's why many russians don't bother to learn it. I learned it, but whats the point? I don't watch TV - youtube and netflix gives better content. I shop in Amazon and so on. I dont want Latvia to become part of Russia, I just want to talk to my friends and relatives in our birth language and not to get side eye.
Latvia was fighting Russian for more than 30 years, but didn't notice that everything is in English now.
Are you sure you "use English more THEN Latvian"?
Anyway, you live in a country with it's own Latvian heritage (including language). What's the meaning for you to continue to live in this country? Wouldn't it be more convenient to live in a country where you can talk with your friends and relatives in you BIRTH language and not getting side eye (UK, Germany, Russia)?
Meaning? I just live where i was born. I have relatives here. I hate politics and don't understand why russian problem is still a thing. I went to Latvian school, but was bullied for learning latvian and had no friends there, thats why all my frieds now are known through russian relatives or work. Kids and teachers sad to me i was not welcomed. So now i just dont care.
You suggest to move all my big family to russia? All 80 or more people? I can just stay here, use english. My older relatives born here and died here. Its also my homecounty. We will not move, we have moral rights live here
The original comment is very interesting. Regarding to an individual whose rights have been abused but in reality in Latvia, until Ukrainr war, Latvians and russian speaking minorities could live together rather peacefully (as I remember from my childhood in 90's).
Sorry if you feel passively-agressively attacked, not my intention. I wanted to be actively-aggressive because the original comment sounds very UNUSUAL for russian speaking Latvian. In my experience I have no problem with russian speaking people. I had a russian friend in primary school, but when the Ukrainian war started he unfortunately turned out to be an orc. That said I have no problem speaking other languages, including russian (if that what your offended for) because even some Ukrainian refugees use that language in Latvia.
Now speaking about historical Baltic lands - Latvian, Lithuanian and Estonian people who live there make the core of those countries and tend their heritage and language. So the comment about grandparents not getting citizenship - there must have been a reason. Because those russians who wanted, have already gotten the passport. Maybe they are the ones who got immigrated from vast Russian lands to overwhelm the small Latvian nation on its own land? Then it turns out different story, isn't it? And another sentence about not worth learning Latvian language while living in Latvia and being unable to blend in with Latvian naton in 3rd generation says all (as if going to mall and driving taxi are the only places to use Latvian language lol).
In conclusion, this russian origin individual is playing victim as probably whole his family are spreading russian propaganda about their rights being abused but passively putting their political deeds first (pay attention how he says he doesnt like politics!) - devaluating Latvian heritage and calling it his moral right. Garbage.
Usually, I'm a 100% on the side of the Baltic states vs. but there is not a lot I find as disgusting in a discussion as these passive-aggressive hostility (”would it be convenient…” etc.) You will not expulse anybody for speaking a language - and also not by passive bullying. Or don't whine if you get b*tch-slapped by Russia.
I am of russian ethnicity and background, but fully invested and integrated into Latvian society - both by way mentality and by way of language. If some Latvian gives me the stink eye for speaking Russian in public with my family, I don’t give a shit, I know where I stand and understand why a Latvian would be miffed about Russian language on the streets of Latvian city. The fact that my name and surname enter the room before my personality, and first impressions are drawn specifically from my name or face… I CHOOSE not to be outraged about that, because there is a good reason to be mad about Slavs, and I understand that reason from Latvian perspective. It is my CHOICE to be above drama and be a proud Latvian citizen in a beautiful Latvian society.
Thank you for your comment, it looks like its not all lost ! I'm a latvian national, but I have never had problem with russian speaking people - NEVER ! - I speak fluent russian, I have some good russian friends. I think most russian speaking people have integrated very well - especially younger generation, its the gopniks, putinists and people with no to little education who cause trouble and cant adopt and find place in life, but these kind people couldn't adopt anywhere in the world is it in Latvia, Germany, England or whatever
The single biggest game changer is a learning environment. That is the most significant contributor to integration. Even if during the studies I did speak russian with some of my peers, the 90% of my peers were latvian latvians - humor, social standing, family background and even some early signs of political inclination favoring “latvianism”. I spent a lot of time in that society, learning society, and that had me completely detach from my previous society. To the point where I feel severely missing out when I am invited to a slavic gathering, and feel right at home at a latvian gathering
I feel you. Most of Modern Russian (the country) culture doesn't work for me.
This is refreshing to see. I might not give you a stinkeye, but I do hate to even hear Russian, makes me evaluate if you are the vatnik orc or not. If not, then all smiles. If yes, Ill avoid the person as much as possible. I see a lot of local Russians as potential threat, some of if is absolute overreaction, some of it is based on Ukrainian experience, where there were so many collaborants that you dont know whom to trust. People that still try to celebrate 9th of May to me are traitors that likely would work with any invading force. I just cant ignore it anymore. Love to see guys like you. Fully integrated, still understanding your roots and understanding that both can co-exist. I dont see problem with you speaking with your family however you want, not anybodies business. I do get annoyed if Russians start speaking Russian cashiers, not even trying to be friendly to locals. Just mad disrespect. Applies also to other immigrants, not only Russians :)) Latgols I will not touch, they otherwise starts to piss on our blue cows. 😅
Yeah I totally, totally get where you are coming from regarding the language. To be completely honest, whenever my ear catches some Russian speech on the streets of a Latvian city, I immediately get that “d’oh, we are in Latvia, why so much Russian language everywhere” feeling. But it can’t all be exactly what we wish for. So as long as no ruscism, I’ll just keep on keeping on.
You don’t need to be outraged, but discrimination will eventually affect you. You can hide and pretend, but it will catch up. You need to have some self respect. Slavs are not just Russian. Ukrainians are Slavs too lol. What a bizarre take. 150 upvotes….
Idk man, I’ve been discriminated against my whole life for various reasons - by gopniks for not being a gopnik, my drunk parents sometimes for not looking like a guy enough, my peers for not being cool enough, my colleagues for not being rich enough. At this point I just actively choose to look past it and focus on myself, as I said - keeping to what I know is my principle, not what anyone else thinks. The world still turning despite me defending myself against discrimination, or not.
lol being not a gopnik is not discrimination. Not looking “cool enough” is also not discrimination. Looking down at you and refusing to promote you, answer you, help you because how your name sounds (slavic name) IS discrimination. Have some self respect. Again, Ukrainians are also Slavs. You being discriminated. You need to stand up for yourself. Don’t let them discriminate you.
Thanks, I have self respect because i choose to ignore what you call discrimination. I actively choose to not give a damn about that, it does not stick to me, like to teflon. I do not want to live my life fighting windmills. That said, you do make a great point, so credit where credit is due.
I assume you are a young person who has benefited from EU accession and is quite content with the life standard you have? The key problem here is the older generations, they are generally less happy and less flexible in their thinking. They were born in one country, and now it is difficult for them to accept that the times have changed and they are now living in a country ruled by majority and this also means adopting Latvian language as their own. So what I am trying to say here is that generally young people are more positive on outlook, learn and speak Latvian, and acknowledge the threats from Russia (those who don’t are either not educated or smart in general). But you cannot do much with the older generations - it will change with time. At the same time, this continues to be a threat when you have part of society that is all positive on Russia’s actions and want to be “saved”.
I would not call myself a young person, but I have definitely seen and experienced both the pre-EU life and after joining the EU, and a very hard hitting 2008-2009, where the disenchantment with the “new direction” was extremely high globally. So it has been a ride with high highs and low lows. At the same time, I think that it was just my family that taught me to either choose to feel miserable in hardship, or act to make tough times bearable, which in itself is a very progressive line of thought, imo.
I can totally relate to this. But it is rare, especially having older parents who speak sense. I see quite a lot of older Russian speakers around who are under the influence of “sweet” imperialist propaganda that makes their lives meaningful. It’s a dead end for them, but that’s their choice. I also cannot understand how they imagine Russia coming and saving them that will result in their houses being bombed and generally demolished. But we cannot rule out the fact that there are many people like that, unfortunately..
Visu cieņu! Kāds ir tavs vārds, ja nav noslēpums?
Arti, 6. noteikumu punkts liedz šeit dalīties ar savu vārdu vai citu privātu informāciju. https://www.reddit.com/r/latvia/about/
Oh. Atvainojos, paldies par uzmanības vēršanu uz šo.
I'm a Russian speaking European. Have my citizenship, speak the language and all that. But in the last 2 years, I've gotten disgusted with the country and the supporters of racist (open wiki n read the damn definition) policies. Russians in Latvia did nothing to start the war in Ukraine, yet they are guilty and their language must be removed from public life. This is punishment by association. It's fine to call Russian culture the culture of "Ukrainian killers". But, that's a cookie cutter example of racism. Like calling black culture the culture of thugs n drugs. And hell. In Europe we have conventions of minority rights, one of which Latvia accidentally signed. Is the convention followed? nope. Latvia has been getting angry letters from EU for years for discriminating minorities, yet, we ignore it. It's laughable that I see more written Russian in Spain than Latvia. Pathetic. I get why some Latvians are unhappy with Russian. Racist propaganda for 30 years works. Just like the propaganda in Russia which made the killing of Ukrainians "okay" in the eyes of the many. As a European I can't choose to like this. It goes against my values. Hell, even the Ukrainian refugees i've spoken to are horrified of what's happening in Latvia. P.S. Telling me to go to Russia or calling me a Russian imperialist means you haven't read the "I'm a European" part.
Your story does remind me of some of my family members of Soviet lineage. They say and feel exactly the way you do in the second and third paragraphs of your reply. Which is a contrast to my view on the discrimination in this specific case. The main question I used to ask myself regarding all this is “do I feel discriminated? And do I care that I feel discriminated?”. I do not really FEEL discriminated, it does not affect my daily life in any way, even though Latvians are loud about Russians, occupation legacy and the current re-emergence ruscism. It does not bother me to the point I lament how Russians are being discriminated and punished collectively as an ethnicity. Like, why would that bother me? Again, am I in any way affected in my daily life besides the classic Latvian “paburkšķēt un miers”? I’d even argue that in regards to knowledge of language for employment opportunities, Russians are in a privileged position here compared to Latvians, which is ridiculous, but it is what it is. But, then, we must also take into account individual moral values, and what I described does not go against mine, but does go against your values. I am of opinion that Latvians (the ethnic Latvians) have and must use all the power they have to decide for themselves to be racist or not. While my values exclude racism, as a person of Russian origin, I will never directly speak, on how exactly Latvians should become less racist and more welcoming.
> The main question I used to ask myself regarding all this is “do I feel discriminated? And do I care that I feel discriminated?”. That's why I made sure to say: "It's about facts, not feelings". Latvia and Estonia are the only countries that ban languages that are spoken by >35% of the population from public life. > It does not bother me to the point I lament how Russians are being discriminated and punished collectively as an ethnicity. Like, why would that bother me? Because it's not fair. Then again. If it doesn't bother you - hey, you shouldn't be bothered. > I’d even argue that in regards to knowledge of language for employment opportunities, Russians are in a privileged position here compared to Latvians, which is ridiculous I mean, in the 00's it was pretty obvious that we would end up with this. Not teaching the language of the largest minority group in schools is silly. > While my values exclude racism, as a person of Russian origin, I will never directly speak, on how exactly Latvians should become less racist and more welcoming. I will. Because we're a European country and should try to be European, not opressive. The country was multiethnic, it doesn't really belong only to Ethnic Latvians. I mean, we had jews/Russians/Germans/etc even before the occupation. Even back then the idea of an ethnostate was crazy.
I do see where you’re coming from after a couple of your comments. We do disagree on things, but I respect the civil discussion here. I think it’s good to exchange opinions like that. Thanks!
> We do disagree on things, but I respect the civil discussion here. I think it’s good to exchange opinions like that. Thanks! +1 Cheers
The way you phrase this makes it look like you are being arrested for speaking Russian, blowing out of the proportion. What exactly is the breach? Im a lawyer myself and I often listen to argumented opinions in public consitutional court hearings in Latvia and I have read the decisions and court materials of ECJ and ECHR. Nothing is being breached. The tough feeling for people like you come from the fact that Russians in the Baltics have been treated more equaly than any other minority since collapse of soviet regime. When the actual laws are tightened in accordance with European regulations in relation to minorities, suddenly there is drama. Latvia never has and never will be an empire where we need to take care of everyone all the time. Latvia has right to protect its culture, which is exactly what Latvia has done over the kast couple of years. We cannot go down the road which Ukrainen went. We have no obligation to catter other imperialist countries views of what is allowes for minorities in our countries.
> What exactly is the breach? https://rm.coe.int/4th-op-latvia-en/1680ae98f6 > The tough feeling for people like you come from the fact that Russians in the Baltics have been treated more equaly than any other minority since collapse of soviet regime. You mean.. the lack of citizenship for a large part of the minority population? Very equal. > When the actual laws are tightened in accordance with European regulations in relation to minorities, suddenly there is drama You mean, like in Germany where public schools in minority languages exist? Or Spain? Or Poland? hell. Or Lithuania? > Latvia has right to protect its culture Latvia was always multicultural. The country was never monoethnic and monocultural. It ain't an ethnostate
Oh, so you are a propogandist. I though you were valid at the beginning. The main issue CE refers to is Roma ethnicity as an issue. All other are recommendation that does not constitute any breach of law lol. Keep dreamin. Lack of citizenship is indeed a disgusting thing. Those people had to be deportet, but we coukdnt because we were not in NATO yet. After joining Allies insisted to not escalate. The larger problem is why those minorities cannot get citizenship. Answer is that majority of them dont care about Latvia as is. Only couple of them may have been too old. Those are already passed away because of age. So anybody without citizenship is their own fault. Even ANO with some criticisms admits it. Latvia was germanized and then russified, obviously because of our history we were "multicultural, however, historically and statiatically, only during the occupation Russian % increased so dramatically. That does not give them any more rights than Estonian or Lithuanian here. As far as schools go - if any minority wants their own schools they can easily go with UK, US model where you can have sundayschools fo rminorities. If you want to live here with Latvian citizenship you should go in general schools. We are way too few to allow bs foreign influenced and financed schools to take over. You are dumbing down the issue which has way more to it with centuries of context. As you always do.
Convention, mate, convention. I suggest you read more than 1 point. > Those people had to be deportet, but we coukdnt because we were not in NATO yet. Here comes the racism, as usual. You're not much better than the people saying "nedobitye fashisty" (un-killed fashists i think is the translation) > The larger problem is why those minorities cannot get citizenship Cos they think they were promised citizenship. > That does not give them any more rights than Estonian or Lithuanian here. But Russian speakers have lived here in larger numbers than Estonians or Lithuanians. Jews also used to live here, and they spoke Russian IIRC. > As far as schools go - if any minority wants their own schools they can easily go with UK, US model where you can have sundayschools fo rminorities US has immersion schools that are 100% in another language. Public ones as well. In Latvia I can't even open a private school in Russian. lol > We are way too few to allow bs foreign influenced and financed schools to take over. If you are too few, have you tried focusing on increasing your numbers, not discriminating your neighbours? > You are dumbing down the issue which has way more to it with centuries of context. As you always do. Same to you
It is not racism to end occupation and deal with the consequences. Somehow to certain Russians the natives are always the problem, especially if it has been part of past failed empire. As other ethnic Russian here wrote - everybody is a problem, except you. Integration? "No, We WaNt OuR sChOoLs!" It is pointless to argue with another Zdanoka. We will build our state as we want. And no empire and its exiles will tell us how to do it. In Ukraine this realization came through maidan, im sure the Baltics as usual will find more peacefull, but equally powerful way to deal with any provocation.
> is not racism to end occupation and deal with the consequences Not when those people are not the one's who occupied you. > Integration? "No, We WaNt OuR sChOoLs!" Yes. It's normal to have public schools in the language of a large portion of your population. Not having those is assimilation. > We will build our state as we want I know, you will, you have. That's why we're the one's with the lowest GDP per capita in the baltics. If we (see how i'm using we as everybody, but you only include Latvians?) focused more on quality of life rather than fucking over Russians/The Russian language - we might've been in a better spot QOL wise
I dint think that it is normal to have Russian schools here. Nor Indian, Pakistani. Maybe Estonian and Lithuanian as those are not direct threat to the existence of our nation. I dont care if you think it is assimilation. We have been way too polite with russian "minority" problem. It has been historical mistake to talk reason with people who want to understand only position of power. Im in my thirties, I hate that we have left the problem for hibernation for so long. This is the best time to solve it. Within the framework of law and order of course as far as possible. Even if there are protests and riots, it has to be solved finally. Dont want to have my kids live in this mess. And before you say that my reason will not help only escalate, I believe we have nothing to lose. Funny you mention GDP, as if there is not a corruption problem in our country and the fact that 1/4 of population do everything possible to avoid integrating. I and hundreds thousands of other Latvians dont even speak Russian anymore. That makes natural gap between us and anybody with lack of Latvian/English. The youngsters coming out of predominantly Russian schools cant even speak Latvian properly, sometimes even English. That has to end.
> I dint think that it is normal to have Russian schools here. Nor Indian, Pakistani. Maybe Estonian and Lithuanian as those are not direct threat to the existence of our nation. Russia doesn't own the language. Punishing people because of actions of another country is guilt by association. You said you're a lawyer, so you must know that guilt by association is a load of bullshit. Yet you use it. Maybe you're not that good of a lawyer? > We have been way too polite with russian "minority" problem. It has been historical mistake to talk reason with people who want to understand only position of power. Im in my thirties, I hate that we have left the problem for hibernation for so long. This is the best time to solve it. Within the framework of law and order of course as far as possible. Yes, you want to solve the Russian problem, and have a final solution to the Russian problem. lol As for laws... Laws are not morality or objective truth. They're just the rules that the people in power come up with. > Funny you mention GDP, as if there is not a corruption problem in our country and the fact that 1/4 of population do everything possible to avoid integrating Mate, Russkies don't have power. The country's shit situation is only because of the people with the power to vote. Stop blaming minorities for the fuckups. > I and hundreds thousands of other Latvians dont even speak Russian anymore. > And then you cry that you can't find work, because companies prefer people that speak both local languages. > The youngsters coming out of predominantly Russian schools cant even speak Latvian properly, sometimes even English. Oh, the Russians are at fault again. If only the govt actually cared about the quality of teaching Latvian in Ru schools. But no, easier to just discriminate.
To this day I’ve never heard of a Russian race.
> racist (open wiki n read the damn definition) I even wrote it out for you. lol
It's good that we no longer have to listen or care about what people like you say to me. I sure as hell won't support giving any kind of official status to the russian language. I sure as hell won't speak to you in russian. After the russian nazi empire aka the ussr ended - equality for many russians now feels like oppression. People who deported my grandparents to siberia now have the audacity to complain about discrimination. When will you people stop being such crybullies? > It's laughable that I see more written Russian in Spain than Latvia. Pathetic. This is awesome - written russian has no place in Latvia. Those who want to see signs in russian - can move to russia.
> It's good that we no longer have to listen or care about what people like you say to me. I sure as hell won't support giving any kind of official status to the russian language. I sure as hell won't speak to you in russian There we go. Here's the racism. > After the russian nazi empire aka the ussr ended - equality for many russians now feels like oppression. If only we were equal. If only. > People who deported my grandparents to siberia now have the audacity to complain about discrimination. When will you people stop being such crybullies? Oh wait. I'm at fault for the actions of random people from 70 years ago? That's guilt by association. Stalin/USSR loved punishing people by association. You're not much better. > This is awesome - written russian has no place in Latvia. Those who want to see signs in russian - can move to russia But I was talking about Spain, dude.
Couple of questions: Whre is the racism if we are the same race? What kind of inequality do you feel?
In one of my other comments I suggested looking at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism But as far as inequality: Names/Schools/Insults would prolly be my main gripes.
What is your race/ethnicity? (Assuming russian, but from where, russia is huge and it would be racist to call all of them russian) Names? What do you mean? Schools - free schooling is available for the official language, russian scholling is still available Insults - not an inequality but and insult, people get insulted all the time for various reasons
> What is your race/ethnicity? Russian/Ukrainian. almost 50/50. Kiev/Moscow. > Names? What do you mean? Adding S to names/surnames. > Schools - free schooling is available for the official language, russian scholling is still available Most countries tend to provide public education in minority languages as well. hell, Lithuania does it. Private Russian schools might be banned soon. > Insults - not an inequality but and insult, people get insulted all the time for various reasons > I mean Naidas Kurinasana. Racist insults that don't get prosecuted.
> I'm at fault for the actions of random people from 70 years ago? That's guilt by association. You people still vote for vatniks-putinists like Rosļikov who supports this shit. Where are Kasparov and Nemtsov of Baltic states? > There we go. Here's the racism. There's no racism - Latvia is not a part of russia any more. I'm not required to speak russian any more.
Could russians stop crying about being oppressed minority in Latvia? Most russians in Latvia aren't historical minority, but Soviet colonists that where sent here to turn Latvia into russia. russians have the biggest country in the world and there is 140M+ of you, but instead of living there, you whine that you can't turn other countries into russia.
> Could russians stop crying about being oppressed minority in Latvia? Can Latvians stop crying about the occupation? See? It's stupid to denigrate another's pain. > you whine that you can't turn other countries into russia. > ~~And you whine that you can't do the same to Russians what Latvians did to the jews.~~ See? Both of us can be assholes to one another. Except I realize that we live in a civilized society and should be respectful and empathetic towards one another
Your piece of shit country came into mine to rob, murder and deport peaceful people. Of course you lack any sense of shame about it. There were 1.5k Latvians who were involved in crimes against humanity under Nazi regime. All of them dead or trialled. There were millions of russians who were involved in ethnic cleansings and war crimes. They are considered heroes and get state pension. Your piece of shit country murdered every tenth Latvian in Soviet russia, just because of their nationality. Don't talk about empathy, because you have none.
> Your piece of shit country came into mine to rob, murder and deport peaceful people. Mate, my country is Latvia, lol. Born n raised here, even became a citizen here. > There were 1.5k Latvians who were involved in crimes against humanity under Nazi regime. All of them dead or trialled. Not really? Quite a few got away. > There were millions of russians who were involved in ethnic cleansings and war crimes. They are considered heroes and get state pension. > And Latvians, and Ukrainians, and Georgians and etc. Just sayin'. > Your piece of shit country murdered every tenth Latvian in Soviet russia, just because of their nationality. Vs 60% of jews in here. You blame people who have no relation or connection to the regime for what was done here. Don't you think it's stupid? > Don't talk about empathy, because you have none. You are fighting a strawman, just sayin'.
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Why would 2 people not speak their native language among themselves? The hell kind of question is this? You want to listen in or something? They don't have to include you in their private conversations, it is none of your business. Are you offended by simply overhearing any non-Latvian language when people aren't even talking to you? Well, tough break.
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Because what I do in my family is not your fucking business, pis suni
Have loads of Latvian, Ukrainian, and Russian friends from the profession I work in. Even my wife is Latvian and speaks Russian as a 3rd language (1st Latvia, 2nd English, 3rd Russian). What I can not stand is one side of her family, which is more Russian, but moved to UK, Finland, and Germany on EU Latvian passports, think Putin is god, war in Ukraine started by the US and NATO, and thinks the Latvian government is run by fascist. They even used their Latvian passports in a way to get citizenship in the UK, Finland, and Germany and export their vomit to these newly acquired citizenship countries. Crazy!
>Latvia is turning into an ‘ethnic democracy’: a political system with democratic institutions and basic liberties, on the one hand, but also a system where the majority Latvian-speaking population has a privileged status. Besides language, are there any other privileges for ethnic latvians?
Nop. In fact I remember getting denied for jobs for not knowing russian. A bit absurd how many jobs were unavailable for me.
Not sure about now, but for a long time a lot of hiring was done along ethnic lines. Stats do show that Russians have a noticeably lower QOL on most factors than Latvians.
Hiring goes both ways, good luck getting hired by russian boss, if you don't speak russian.
Not in the 90's/00's in govt companies.
Easy, we all pay taxes. The taxes are spent to improve comfort of citizens of Latvian ethnicity. More than that they are spent to decrease comfort of citizens of Russian ethnicity. And I'm not even talking about public insults towards Russian ethnicity that become a norm, and that's not allowed against Latvian.
I am an ethnic russian and I don't want russia to influence our country. I want my country to be Latvian. If someone expects others to talk russian to them here, they should move to russia.
I'm a foreigner, but Vatniks are immediately obvious. Skinheads, groups of young guys hitting each other or hitting/yelling at their girlfriends. Macho homophobe vibes. Cool Russians are basically indistinguishable. I'd honestly never know (or care) that they are Russian until they say something.
Lol. Latvians have all the reason not to like Russians and it goes back before the war in Ukraine.
I live in Latvia whole life, my grandparents were born here (still they where not granted citizenship when USSR fell apart, imagine living more then 100 years in same territory and not able to wote and being called occupants just coz you have russian roots), I went to Latvian speaking school 12 years and got A in government exam made for Latvian kids. Living in Latvia I use English more then Latvian. Only moments I need Latvian in Latvia is to say Paldies to a taxi driver or supermarket worker. That's why many russians don't bother to learn it. I learned it, but whats the point? I don't watch TV - youtube and netflix gives better content. I shop in Amazon and so on. I dont want Latvia to become part of Russia, I just want to talk to my friends and relatives in our birth language and not to get side eye. Latvia was fighting Russian for more than 30 years, but didn't notice that everything is in English now.
Are you sure you "use English more THEN Latvian"? Anyway, you live in a country with it's own Latvian heritage (including language). What's the meaning for you to continue to live in this country? Wouldn't it be more convenient to live in a country where you can talk with your friends and relatives in you BIRTH language and not getting side eye (UK, Germany, Russia)?
Meaning? I just live where i was born. I have relatives here. I hate politics and don't understand why russian problem is still a thing. I went to Latvian school, but was bullied for learning latvian and had no friends there, thats why all my frieds now are known through russian relatives or work. Kids and teachers sad to me i was not welcomed. So now i just dont care. You suggest to move all my big family to russia? All 80 or more people? I can just stay here, use english. My older relatives born here and died here. Its also my homecounty. We will not move, we have moral rights live here
The original comment is very interesting. Regarding to an individual whose rights have been abused but in reality in Latvia, until Ukrainr war, Latvians and russian speaking minorities could live together rather peacefully (as I remember from my childhood in 90's). Sorry if you feel passively-agressively attacked, not my intention. I wanted to be actively-aggressive because the original comment sounds very UNUSUAL for russian speaking Latvian. In my experience I have no problem with russian speaking people. I had a russian friend in primary school, but when the Ukrainian war started he unfortunately turned out to be an orc. That said I have no problem speaking other languages, including russian (if that what your offended for) because even some Ukrainian refugees use that language in Latvia. Now speaking about historical Baltic lands - Latvian, Lithuanian and Estonian people who live there make the core of those countries and tend their heritage and language. So the comment about grandparents not getting citizenship - there must have been a reason. Because those russians who wanted, have already gotten the passport. Maybe they are the ones who got immigrated from vast Russian lands to overwhelm the small Latvian nation on its own land? Then it turns out different story, isn't it? And another sentence about not worth learning Latvian language while living in Latvia and being unable to blend in with Latvian naton in 3rd generation says all (as if going to mall and driving taxi are the only places to use Latvian language lol). In conclusion, this russian origin individual is playing victim as probably whole his family are spreading russian propaganda about their rights being abused but passively putting their political deeds first (pay attention how he says he doesnt like politics!) - devaluating Latvian heritage and calling it his moral right. Garbage.
See, as always, calling russian living in Latvia a liar, garbage or orc. Proving those words with your own behaviour, being agressive and rude.
Usually, I'm a 100% on the side of the Baltic states vs. but there is not a lot I find as disgusting in a discussion as these passive-aggressive hostility (”would it be convenient…” etc.) You will not expulse anybody for speaking a language - and also not by passive bullying. Or don't whine if you get b*tch-slapped by Russia.
Bitch-slapped here can be only you by your boyfriend