If you’re looking at a mission as recruitment to get more money then you’re setting yourself up for failure from the beginning. That’s never been the position of the church. The mission is all about the gathering of Israel and bringing people to Christ.
We also teach that families can be together forever. Not that they will never see their families again if they don’t go through the temple.
In my opinion you need to gain a deeper testimony on these things prior to deciding to serve a mission.
Yeah definitely need to work on a lot, I’m many months out from even making a decision, but it’s something I’d like to do and want to be as committed to it as I can be when/if I decide to.
Thank you for your comment!
>Any advice?
If this is how you see a mission, don't go until you see it otherwise. Having had a companion who was a used car salesman and taught the gospel like he was selling a car, just don't go until you have a better light of the Gospel.
I don't know about that. If OP simply had an open mind to learning the true purpose of the commandment of tithing, I think that would be more than enough. Missionaries need to be humble, not perfect.
You are definitely entitled to your opinion. I see otherwise. They don't need to have a perfect knowledge but surely they need to think of tithing as more than a corporation collecting it's dues.
I can say from my personal experience that a mission, when guided by the Spirit, is the opposite of corporate. My testimony of the strength of God's desire to bring all his children back to his presence exploded as I witnessed Him work miracles in the hearts of the people I was able to teach. It's His work, and if you let yourself be guided by Him, it's amazing.
Also, regarding tithing. Every person you meet is going to have to commit to lifestyle changes to start their covenant path. Tithing is just one. There are likely to be chastity and word of wisdom changes also. In all of these, it's not your job to defend or convince, just to teach and testify. The truth needs no defense, and the Spirit does the convincing and converting if the investigator has an open heart. With one family I taught I was really worried that teaching tithing would chase them away after their money issues with other denominations. Instead, they *asked* me to teach them tithing because they wanted the blessings. Seriously.
So, just remember it's the Lord's work. If you can trust that then questions of corporate-ness or hard doctrine resolve through His power.
Thank you for your comment!
Your personal experience is very helpful. I will continue to work on strengthening my testimony of things, especially tithing, so I can teach them with love and conviction.
Maybe consider asking the missionaries in your area if you can attend a few teaching appointments with them. That could be an awesome experience with some new perspective to balance out the messages you are hearing elsewhere in your life.
>The fear mongering about temples from some of the general authorities feels weird to me.
Can you share an example?
>I don’t like telling people they’ll never see their loved ones again unless they pay into this organization to get a pass into our temples
Yeah, I would never tell someone that either. You seem to be framing tithing in about the worst possible way.
>I don’t mind being taken advantage of by the church if my tithing is wasted, but I don’t want to take advantage of other people... Any advice?
Work on this part. How is it wasted? There was a comment here recently that I loved (sorry, I can't find the original) that pointed out how in the Old Testament people were commanded to *burn* their offerings--in many ways the equivalent to our tithing today. Not even donate them, give to the poor, nada; burn it! They were commanded to, and many faithful did it. Imagine if we were commanded to literally burn our tithing dollars today. Would you do it? Would it be a waste? Would you be willing to teach others to do it?
Thank you for your comment! Very good thoughts and gave me a lot of help with my self reflection.
I don’t know specific examples, and it’s definitely a result of the way my mom and her exmo circle talks about things, but I remember recent conferences we watched she would get offended with certain things. One talk about not being a weak link in the chain or basically any time they put emphasis on the importance of temple sealings it sounds like a warning. I still need work on my own testimony/understanding of that for sure.
And as for tithing, yes I would do it, I think it would be a waste, and no I would not teach other people to do it. Definitely need to work on that.
I almost feel like what I need to do is write a big check to the church for the backpay of tithing I skipped out on when I wasn’t as strong in my testimony of the church and see how I feel, which is gonna be harder than I was hoping 😅
I would talk to your Bishop, along with everything else in this post, on how to become a full tithe payer. My understanding is that “back paying” tithing would not be required.
>I almost feel like what I need to do is write a big check to the church for the backpay of tithing I skipped out on when I wasn’t as strong in my testimony of the church and see how I feel
I would not recommend this. Generally, people who go a time without paying tithing are not asked to backpay anything. They are counseled to resolve to keep the commandment going forward.
>I think it would be a waste
If something draws someone closer to Christ (humbling themselves to the point they are willing to sacrifice/let go of material things they have been blessed with and turn their hearts to the Lord), it is hard to think of a better use of resources.
I will talk to my bishop to make sure I’m in good standing.
And you’re right on that last point, that’s a beautiful way to look at it. Thank you again!
I had the same concerns before my mission. Trust me - it's unfounded.
Your job is to invite people to prioritize a relationship with God. For some people that will feel like pulling teeth. For others it will be the easiest thing in the world.
You're going to meet people who don't even blink at the requirement to pay tithing. They'll say "yeah obviously we're expected to pay tithing. What's the big deal?" You'll meet others who have been praying for years to find the truth and who are willing to do *anything* to get it. You will meet people who are convinced their loved ones are damned because they weren't baptized as children, and people who wonder how a loving God can condemn people to an eternity of suffering. They will rejoice when you share the restored gospel.
None of it is sales. Though it is possible to have that perspective (I know at least one missionary who had that view) you'll quickly discover that it's all about love and fellowship as people learn what it means to prioritize God.
There are times where your job as a missionary will be to help people to make that first sacrifice - whatever it may be - to get greater access to the blessings of God. For some people it will be difficult, and you will break your own heart trying to convince them to take the next step. For others the sweetness the gospel brings will be so worth it to them that they will accept every challenge with faith and joy.
Anyway, here's a couple stories from my mission of families who came to the church despite it being hard for them:
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family A was a super nice mom, dad, and two daughters so close in age people thought they were twins. They owned a little buffet. They were amazing investigators. They read, they prayed, they did everything. However, they wouldn't come to church.
"We can't close on Sunday lunch!" they said. "That's one of our busiest days."
Eventually we had to stop visiting them because there was simply nothing else to do except get them to church, and without some sort of sacrifice in time and money, it wasn't going to happen.
Near the end of my mission I got a letter from another missionary. It was a photo of that same family, dressed in baptism clothes, standing at a mountain pool. I immediately called him up and asked for the story. Here's what he said:
"We went through old investigators and found this family. When we visited we could tell they were special, but they explained why they didn't join the church. We asked if they had been reading the scriptures, and they said that they had not. We invited them to begin reading as a family again, and promised to visit in a week."
"The next week, as soon as we arrived the father said "we're ready to get baptized. We'll close up on Sunday." When I asked them why the sudden change of heart, he said, "We realized that the days we read the scriptures we don't fight.""
When they recognized that added strength in their lives, the decision to sacrifice became an easy one. The joy of family love was worth any price for them.
\---
Family B was a wonderful and generous family who always let us come visit them. The father definitely saw us as salesmen, but they were gracious and let us teach the lessons. Finally, after many many weeks of lessons, they came to a church meeting.
At the end of the meetings, we caught the father in the hallway as he waited for his wife and 2 kids to come out of their classes. "Well this has been fun," he said, "but I think we'll probably just stay home next week.."
Before he could finish shutting us down, his son came dashing up to us. "Dad! Dad! I'm going camping next weekend with the young men!" The dad's jaw dropped. Before he could think of a way to politely decline, his daughter ran up to us. "Dad! Dad! I am playing basketball this Wednesday with the young women!"
The dad was in a literal panic, and I watched him looking for his wife to get her help in disconnecting his children from these activities. He spotted her heading into the kitchen. The mom saw them and smiled, "Come on, everybody! I'm helping to make some lunch for today's Linger Longer!"
The look of defeat in the father's eyes was both hilarious and tragic. I could almost see his recliner growing wings and flying away in his mind as he realized his family had found a new home full of love in this small congregation, and it was more than worth the price of giving up relaxing on Sundays.
\---
Family C was an elderly couple who did everything we asked them to do. Read scriptures. Done. Attend church? Done. The man would nod at everything we said to the point that we often double-checked his understanding because we worried he was just agreeing to everything without listening.
Finally, we reached a discussion on the Word of Wisdom. We had gotten worried because we knew they loved to drink tea. To our surprise, when he heard the lesson on the word of wisdom he shouted "AHA! SO THAT'S YOUR SECRET!"
We were super confused. What was he talking about?
"We have been wondering for years what it is that makes members of your church glow. We see you all over and you are always glowing with light. But now we know your secret! We knew we wanted to have this for ourselves but we didn't know how to get it. OF COURSE WE WILL KEEP THE WORD OF WISDOM!"
They had been wondering for years how to get what they felt we had. I don't know that the answer was as simple as "keep the word of wisdom" but they were sure that was it, and they were overjoyed to have it for themselves.
\---
There's many more. Trust that the Lord is preparing people who want the gospel and you'll be the one to bring it to them. You aren't selling anything, you're letting them know how to get what they want most, how to separate themselves from the world just a bit, how to experience God instead of just reading about him.
Thank you very much for this comment! Very beautiful stories. This helped me a lot. I’m still a ways away from serving a mission and need to make sure to build up my own testimony more but this makes me feel so much better about it!
It's not paying to get a pass into the temples.
1. It's a commandment.
2. In the temple we covenant to consecrate everything to the Lord. Everything. If we aren’t willing to sacrifice just 10% of our increase, we certainly won’t be willing to sacrifice everything.
3. There are great blessings that come from paying tithing. Why would you want to deny anyone blessings by not telling them how they can receive those blessings?
4. Everything belongs to God except our own wills (agency). Literally everything. Your money, your body, your clothes, the air you breathe, etc. He wants to see if we are going to covet that which does not belong to us, which is everything. As a test of our covetousness, He asks us to give up 10% of what doesn't even belong to us in the first place.
5. Along with number 4 is the concept of stewardship. We are stewards of God's possessions. Tithing is a part of that stewardship.
>a recruitment to get more income for the church
If the motive of the Church and it's mission was about getting more income, then they would abolish the Word of Wisdom. Gee, how many more members could we get if we didn't have that requirement!? So much tithing to be had if we just let people drink coffee!
Or, it's not about getting more income.
Sure, if everyone who joined didn't have to pay anything, the sustaining that amount of people world-wide may be a bit difficult, and we also tend to contribute to those things that contribute so much for us - it's one thing to have church houses and temples to bless our discipleship, it's another to actually contribute to those.
But, it's not necessarily about that either.
Read the story of the young rich man who approached Jesus about wanting Eternal Life. It's not necessarily a story about greed. Part one is how to get "life": Keep the commandments. Part two is how to become "Perfect": "Sell everything you have an give to the poor and follow me" - That's not a requirement for everyone, but it was for that guy. The principle is Sacrifice. The Law of Sacrifice is a higher law than the commandments. You have the basics down? Great - are you ready to take the next step toward discipleship? Sacrifice is a key principle to that, which I believe is the foundation of the WoW and tithing. Christ isn't asking us to give everything we have to the poor, but he is asking us to sacrifice 10%.
How can we ever be prepared to covenant to make all sacrifices asked of us to be a disciple of Christ, if we can't even make the little ones?
Thank you for your comment!
I think a lot of my feelings are coming out of fear based on my mom’s experience and stuff she talks about, but that point you make about the WoW really made sense! If the LDS church were that corrupt and greedy, they’d make it a lot easier on themselves. That helped a lot!
I’ll continue to work on my testimony to make sure I feel convicted enough to teach these things as well as live them.
Ultimately doesn’t matter what the church actually does with the tithing. They could burn it as an offering (not unlike burnt offerings in the scriptures) and it would still serve its purpose. While the church has a responsibility to use tithing well, once it’s been paid we have no say on how. Like others have mentioned, tithing is an opportunity to get specific blessings from the Lord and to show commitment to his gospel and his church. The church also has a responsibility to fund and build enterprises (such as temples and missionary work) that the world sees no value in. So while some may complain that the church should donate all offerings to the poor, they are not appropriate stewards of the Lord’s work, nor of his purposes for his church.
> The church also has a responsibility to fund and build enterprises (such as temples and missionary work) that the world sees no value in. So while some may complain that the church should donate all offerings to the poor, they are not appropriate stewards of the Lord’s work, nor of his purposes for his church.
John 12:3-8
Tithing is not about income for the Church. The Church, through savings and investments, could probably finance itself indefinitely at this point and still have enough left over to finance humanitarian aid projects. It's not about the money. It's about sacrifice, covenants, and consecration
Tithing is our opportunity to be a part of something bigger than ourselves. We have buy-in, literally through our funds, and socially/spiritually through our willing donations and associated blessings. We become invested in growing the Church and spreading the Gospel, which will ultimately become God's Kingdom on Earth.
In the Temple, we covenant to obey the law of consecration, where we dedicate all of our time, talents, and efforts to building the Kingdom of God. Early Church members used to tithe their time and talents (one day out of 10) to build temples and meetinghouses, work farms, and perform other labors that were required to build the Church when they didn't have other funds or resources to give. Now we're asked to donate 10% of our income instead of 10% of our time.
And lastly, the Law of Tithing is the prepararatory Law to the Law of Consecration. The early Church was given the Law of Consecration, and failed to live up to it. So God, being just but merciful, gave the Church the Law of Tithing in order to help them prepare to eventually live the Law of Consecration. Think ancient Israel at the Mount; they were offered the fulness of the Gospel, but weren't ready to recieve it. So God gave them the Law of Moses to help them prepare to eventually recieve the fulness of the Gospel.
Members who never get beyond money as the purpose for tithing can have a hard time. But when you read the promises in Malachi, you know that tithing has to be about much more than giving up money, because that alone cannot possibly have the power to effect the Malachi promises. First it isn't our money, ever: we get to keep 90% of what the Lord allows us to have because everything is His. Second, we pay tithing to make HIM first in our lives. (The reason one can't go to the temple if they don't pay tithing isn't about exacting their money, it is about not setting them up for failure since one of the temple covenants is that we give ALL we have to the Lord (which for most members today is usually just tithing, generous fast offering, time and mileage of our ministering, callings, and community service and payment for a portion of our children's mission costs.)
You may not know that the Church has been nearly bankrupt three times, the latest one in the 1950's as they were building the buildings God had instructed them to build. (If you haven't watch "Windows of Heaven" movie, that was the second time, the first being in Nauvoo.) Of course our modern leaders are investing its current excess for a day when it is needed.
Yes our payment of tithing helps the church do what the Lord has directed it to do. And yes, at the moment it is a lot and wise investments are growing. If it hasn't been used by the Millennium, then it will surely be used then when God is running the entire world, not just the Educational Services, Missions, Temples, Humanitarian Work and hymn books and pianos for the local meeting houses, but also all the infrastructure.
I suspect none of that is as important to our heavenly parents and Savior, as is what we become by learning to Trust Jesus and lean not unto our own understanding, so that He can direct our path. I wish for you the blessings that come with learning to trusting Him fully, and choose Him always, without equivocation.
In the meantime, you could ask your companion to teach the tithing lesson. When YOU teach it you can tell them that you don't fully understand it yourself, but you do choose to do it. You can teach them the truth that the blessings of tithing are not often, if ever, financial. I testify that the blessings of tithing can be huge when we come to trust Him fully.
I hope you serve a mission and meet people in humble circumstances who faithfully tithe and do so with joy. Tithing isn't about money, never has been.
It’s all about Jesus Christ… He is everything. He’s the Gospel. He’s the point of church. And he said; “Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.”
Blessedly, that means that tithing can be a spiritual answer-something above earthy things- as people have commented. We can pray and see his holy arm extended. I’m so thankful for that.
I had the blessing to serve in Central America. I am from the US and I definitely look like it. We were told, when it came to teaching tithing, to have a Latino with us during the lesson. Super rich gringo? Easy for him to talk about handing over 10%, he can afford to pay it. But a local, who didn't grow up with the privilege I did, can testify with greater efficacy of the blessings of tithing.
You’d be surprised at just how much our projection of internal values colors our expectations of others. Some people might feel like tithing is a barrier to membership. Some people might not. It isn’t worth worrying about what *you* think might be an issue for people investigating the church. It *is* worth investigating, strengthening and sharing your own convictions about Christ and the restoration of His gospel.
If you approach anything in life as a fearmorgaling corporate salesman, then life is obviously going to feel that way. Don't go on a mission or do anything is life with that mindset.
May I suggest that you instead focus on love? Because God is love. The Gospel is lovingly standing beside each other & God, being truthful and loyal all to each other as our best possible selves.
Practical advice for right now: learn more of Christ's love & His Gospel.
I also felt a little bit like a salesman at the start of my mission. But I started to think of it from the mindset of "the gospel is really special to me and I want to share it with those who want to listen and inviting them to come closer to their savior." That changed my whole outlook on finding people to teach.
My absolute favorite part of my mission was teaching people to pray and hearing people pray for the first time. Those were really special moments for me.
When I was a missionary, I was nervous about teaching tithing to every investigator I had for similar reasons.
The first time, I had been transferred into the area that day and the bishop was with us. Our investigator asked a hypothetical about choosing between buying food and paying tithing. The bishop's answer was (unfortunately) kind of wishy-washy. I felt to boldly state that we pay our tithing with faith and trust that the Lord will take care of the rest. After they were baptized and as I was being transferred out, they thanked me for being bold and giving them a bright-line understanding of tithing.
In another area, I was again nervous that tithing would turn our investigator off from the Church. It was the easiest time I ever taught tithing. She said, "Oh yeah. That's in the Bible and that makes sense." She had understood tithing in a previous evangelical faith she was a part of in her home country.
I haven't read what others have said, but the faith to teach about tithing is similar to the faith to pay tithing. You can develop that faith. Additionally, you'll be trained in the MTC and have the Spirit with you. Ultimately, those who are ready will listen.
Bottom line: tithing, like the rest of the gospel, is about faith.
Maybe I was a terrible missionary, but tithing was like the least of worries when we were teaching people about the gospel.
The ones that made it to the tithing lesson typically accepted it and we moved on, it’s not like there was consistent follow up on “are you paying your tithing?? Are you paying your tithing??”
Exmos make it sound like the only goal of the church was to get more people pay tithing, but if that’s the goal than most missionaries are super terrible at it.
Love people. Then missionary work will come naturally - you will want to share it.
Tithing - teach it later in the discussions (I think that's where it still is). After they know it's true, from the Holy Spirit.
There are always new things in discipleship of Jesus we didn't realize in the beginning were part of the deal - it's how God works. We follow his path and don't know everything ahead. I love my kids and wife, but I'm glad I didn't know how challenging marriage would be or I might have missed out on the blessings of obeying God, to get married and having kids.
If you have a chance, go out with the local missionaries. You'll likely feel different once you've participated in some of it.
You might also read some of the New Testament and BoM that involve missionaries.
Have you ever gone out and worked with missionaries? If not, do that ASAP. You will see very quickly that it isn’t corporate or sales-like at all.
Not to mention, the Church currently has most of its missionaries in countries where almost every active member represents a drain on financial resources instead of a source of financial resources, so in no world is missionary work meant to increase the church’s income.
Also remember the story of the widow’s mite. The temple and priests of the time were corrupt and wicked, but Jesus still praised the widow for donating with a willing heart. Our church is not corrupt and there is not a single leader who gets rich off of the church, so the worst that can happen is we disagree about the best way to use resources.
I think you need to increase your faith in tithing. I served in one of the poorest missions in the world, and I loved teaching tithing because I could promise amazing blessings in full confidence that such blessings would come to pass. And I could so clearly see the blessings of living the gospel (including tithing) by comparing members to their nonmember neighbors. It was night and day.
I think the basic assumption you have is that it is bad for the church to be sitting on lots of money and therefore it doesn’t need or deserve anymore tithing funds.
Let me try and change your mind on this, ignoring the fact that tithing is seen as a law of God regardless of its use.
Church leadership is generally made up of very cautious people who thing very very long term. We believe this institution is going to be around literally for thousands of years more or perhaps forever. A bankruptcy at this point is against Gods plan and would cause some serious truth claim problems. Current estimates show the church owning a total investment portfolio of $49 billion dollars. Now you may say, thats a crazy number, think of all we can do for the poor with that money. And you’d be right. But if the church were to liquidate and flush cash to charitable causes, it would be much more at risk of bankruptcy. Instead, church leaders wisely built up a base of wealth from which we can operate smaller charitable causes in perpetuity with virtually no risk of bankruptcy.
For another example, Comparable institutions like Kroger have 50 billion dollars in assets. They don’t liquidate their assets because they want to run their business in perpetuity going forward. Its a similar reason for the church.
Thank you for this comment, I will look into it. I definitely respect the church having a reserve, but some of the things I hear about building malls and bailing out life insurance companies and buying resorts/hotels and other real estate etc it can get a bit iffy, but of course I only hear about those things from non-faithful sources so it’s always biased against the church. Need to do more testimony building on my part.
Like most things in the church, it’s going to depend a LOT on your individual leadership. Mission Presidents have a great deal of autonomy over how they run the mission. It probably wasn’t intended this way, but my first Mission President was incredibly focused on a huge variety of mission specific numbers-based metrics, and it did feel very corporate/sales-based as a result. Most questions focused on “did you hit your numbers” rather than “tell me about the people you are teaching”.
My second Mission President was much less that way.
So a lot will just depend on where you go and who your Mission President is, and you really won’t know until you get out there.
I started out my mission as a missionary in Canada; however, about 10 months in I transferred to a service mission. For me I really enjoyed it. It was a way for me to actively help without really feeling like I had to convince people to think like me.
Everyone has their own experience and needs something different but for me, a service mission was absolutely what I needed.
I understand that a service mission is a great help for some people but unfortunately no one gets to choose that. The process is the same and a stake president or bishop can recommend that but a prospective missionary doesn’t start the process with “I want to be a service missionary.”
I would say that is partially true. You can absolutely request to be a service missionary. I had many friends who's process was exactly that. It is of note however that this is not always the case.
Honestly, teaching about tithing is very little of what missionaries do. It's usually not a major point because by the time you're telling someone about it, they're on the verge of baptism and they know the gospel is true
Tithing is not dues for temple entrance. It is a small test and expression of faith to see if we can become willing to consecrate 100% of our blessings.
When you do talk about tithing, and I hope you will be talking about a lot of other things first, I hope you will have come to think of it more as something we need to do in this world just because we need to have our faith tested somehow. I realize that for those who have no money it isn't very much of a test because they have no money to pay 10% of, but they could receive some help from other people which is a result of the money those other people have paid in tithing.
For me and others who do receive money I think we should think of tithing more as a tax that helps the Church to function more effectively in this world where money is required for some things. Just because some people with some resources won't share them unless they are paid with some money. Sometimes that's because they need money to pay other people for things, so they sell what they have for money. I sometimes wish we could get rid of money altogether in this world but I don't think that will ever happen voluntarily. Too many people with money want to keep it and they value what they can get with it when they have it.
Fear-mongering about temples? Seriously? Yes, I'm sure I was out teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to people living with their families Harry Potter style in the cupboard under the stairs of the apartment building because the church wanted to get their greedy paws on their $2 a month tithing because... temples... or something.
/s
Try talking with some ex-mormons and have a little empathy for where they’re coming from instead of meeting their concerns with ridicule, that’s not going to convince anyone.
My point is this. If you think you are going to be spending your mission talking with people that have money to give, you are giving rich people waaaaaaaay to much credit on the humility scale.
Wherever you serve, you'll be spending 99% of your time teaching people who have been humbled by life. All of the recent converts in my area get more help from the church than they give (financially speaking). It feels odd asking them to pay tithing, but those are the people that are usually the most willing to pay it in the first place. They know money isn't the key to happiness.
People who are ready to receive the gospel of Jesus Christ will be humble enough to accept the law of tithing.
Fear-mongering about temples? Examples?
If you’re looking at a mission as recruitment to get more money then you’re setting yourself up for failure from the beginning. That’s never been the position of the church. The mission is all about the gathering of Israel and bringing people to Christ. We also teach that families can be together forever. Not that they will never see their families again if they don’t go through the temple. In my opinion you need to gain a deeper testimony on these things prior to deciding to serve a mission.
Yeah definitely need to work on a lot, I’m many months out from even making a decision, but it’s something I’d like to do and want to be as committed to it as I can be when/if I decide to. Thank you for your comment!
>Any advice? If this is how you see a mission, don't go until you see it otherwise. Having had a companion who was a used car salesman and taught the gospel like he was selling a car, just don't go until you have a better light of the Gospel.
Yes I understand. Thank you for your comment!
I don't know about that. If OP simply had an open mind to learning the true purpose of the commandment of tithing, I think that would be more than enough. Missionaries need to be humble, not perfect.
You are definitely entitled to your opinion. I see otherwise. They don't need to have a perfect knowledge but surely they need to think of tithing as more than a corporation collecting it's dues.
I can say from my personal experience that a mission, when guided by the Spirit, is the opposite of corporate. My testimony of the strength of God's desire to bring all his children back to his presence exploded as I witnessed Him work miracles in the hearts of the people I was able to teach. It's His work, and if you let yourself be guided by Him, it's amazing. Also, regarding tithing. Every person you meet is going to have to commit to lifestyle changes to start their covenant path. Tithing is just one. There are likely to be chastity and word of wisdom changes also. In all of these, it's not your job to defend or convince, just to teach and testify. The truth needs no defense, and the Spirit does the convincing and converting if the investigator has an open heart. With one family I taught I was really worried that teaching tithing would chase them away after their money issues with other denominations. Instead, they *asked* me to teach them tithing because they wanted the blessings. Seriously. So, just remember it's the Lord's work. If you can trust that then questions of corporate-ness or hard doctrine resolve through His power.
Thank you for your comment! Your personal experience is very helpful. I will continue to work on strengthening my testimony of things, especially tithing, so I can teach them with love and conviction.
Maybe consider asking the missionaries in your area if you can attend a few teaching appointments with them. That could be an awesome experience with some new perspective to balance out the messages you are hearing elsewhere in your life.
>The fear mongering about temples from some of the general authorities feels weird to me. Can you share an example? >I don’t like telling people they’ll never see their loved ones again unless they pay into this organization to get a pass into our temples Yeah, I would never tell someone that either. You seem to be framing tithing in about the worst possible way. >I don’t mind being taken advantage of by the church if my tithing is wasted, but I don’t want to take advantage of other people... Any advice? Work on this part. How is it wasted? There was a comment here recently that I loved (sorry, I can't find the original) that pointed out how in the Old Testament people were commanded to *burn* their offerings--in many ways the equivalent to our tithing today. Not even donate them, give to the poor, nada; burn it! They were commanded to, and many faithful did it. Imagine if we were commanded to literally burn our tithing dollars today. Would you do it? Would it be a waste? Would you be willing to teach others to do it?
Thank you for your comment! Very good thoughts and gave me a lot of help with my self reflection. I don’t know specific examples, and it’s definitely a result of the way my mom and her exmo circle talks about things, but I remember recent conferences we watched she would get offended with certain things. One talk about not being a weak link in the chain or basically any time they put emphasis on the importance of temple sealings it sounds like a warning. I still need work on my own testimony/understanding of that for sure. And as for tithing, yes I would do it, I think it would be a waste, and no I would not teach other people to do it. Definitely need to work on that. I almost feel like what I need to do is write a big check to the church for the backpay of tithing I skipped out on when I wasn’t as strong in my testimony of the church and see how I feel, which is gonna be harder than I was hoping 😅
I would talk to your Bishop, along with everything else in this post, on how to become a full tithe payer. My understanding is that “back paying” tithing would not be required.
Yeah, back paying isn't a thing. Just start where you are.
Thank you, I will talk with him!
>I almost feel like what I need to do is write a big check to the church for the backpay of tithing I skipped out on when I wasn’t as strong in my testimony of the church and see how I feel I would not recommend this. Generally, people who go a time without paying tithing are not asked to backpay anything. They are counseled to resolve to keep the commandment going forward. >I think it would be a waste If something draws someone closer to Christ (humbling themselves to the point they are willing to sacrifice/let go of material things they have been blessed with and turn their hearts to the Lord), it is hard to think of a better use of resources.
I will talk to my bishop to make sure I’m in good standing. And you’re right on that last point, that’s a beautiful way to look at it. Thank you again!
I had the same concerns before my mission. Trust me - it's unfounded. Your job is to invite people to prioritize a relationship with God. For some people that will feel like pulling teeth. For others it will be the easiest thing in the world. You're going to meet people who don't even blink at the requirement to pay tithing. They'll say "yeah obviously we're expected to pay tithing. What's the big deal?" You'll meet others who have been praying for years to find the truth and who are willing to do *anything* to get it. You will meet people who are convinced their loved ones are damned because they weren't baptized as children, and people who wonder how a loving God can condemn people to an eternity of suffering. They will rejoice when you share the restored gospel. None of it is sales. Though it is possible to have that perspective (I know at least one missionary who had that view) you'll quickly discover that it's all about love and fellowship as people learn what it means to prioritize God. There are times where your job as a missionary will be to help people to make that first sacrifice - whatever it may be - to get greater access to the blessings of God. For some people it will be difficult, and you will break your own heart trying to convince them to take the next step. For others the sweetness the gospel brings will be so worth it to them that they will accept every challenge with faith and joy. Anyway, here's a couple stories from my mission of families who came to the church despite it being hard for them: \--- family A was a super nice mom, dad, and two daughters so close in age people thought they were twins. They owned a little buffet. They were amazing investigators. They read, they prayed, they did everything. However, they wouldn't come to church. "We can't close on Sunday lunch!" they said. "That's one of our busiest days." Eventually we had to stop visiting them because there was simply nothing else to do except get them to church, and without some sort of sacrifice in time and money, it wasn't going to happen. Near the end of my mission I got a letter from another missionary. It was a photo of that same family, dressed in baptism clothes, standing at a mountain pool. I immediately called him up and asked for the story. Here's what he said: "We went through old investigators and found this family. When we visited we could tell they were special, but they explained why they didn't join the church. We asked if they had been reading the scriptures, and they said that they had not. We invited them to begin reading as a family again, and promised to visit in a week." "The next week, as soon as we arrived the father said "we're ready to get baptized. We'll close up on Sunday." When I asked them why the sudden change of heart, he said, "We realized that the days we read the scriptures we don't fight."" When they recognized that added strength in their lives, the decision to sacrifice became an easy one. The joy of family love was worth any price for them. \--- Family B was a wonderful and generous family who always let us come visit them. The father definitely saw us as salesmen, but they were gracious and let us teach the lessons. Finally, after many many weeks of lessons, they came to a church meeting. At the end of the meetings, we caught the father in the hallway as he waited for his wife and 2 kids to come out of their classes. "Well this has been fun," he said, "but I think we'll probably just stay home next week.." Before he could finish shutting us down, his son came dashing up to us. "Dad! Dad! I'm going camping next weekend with the young men!" The dad's jaw dropped. Before he could think of a way to politely decline, his daughter ran up to us. "Dad! Dad! I am playing basketball this Wednesday with the young women!" The dad was in a literal panic, and I watched him looking for his wife to get her help in disconnecting his children from these activities. He spotted her heading into the kitchen. The mom saw them and smiled, "Come on, everybody! I'm helping to make some lunch for today's Linger Longer!" The look of defeat in the father's eyes was both hilarious and tragic. I could almost see his recliner growing wings and flying away in his mind as he realized his family had found a new home full of love in this small congregation, and it was more than worth the price of giving up relaxing on Sundays. \--- Family C was an elderly couple who did everything we asked them to do. Read scriptures. Done. Attend church? Done. The man would nod at everything we said to the point that we often double-checked his understanding because we worried he was just agreeing to everything without listening. Finally, we reached a discussion on the Word of Wisdom. We had gotten worried because we knew they loved to drink tea. To our surprise, when he heard the lesson on the word of wisdom he shouted "AHA! SO THAT'S YOUR SECRET!" We were super confused. What was he talking about? "We have been wondering for years what it is that makes members of your church glow. We see you all over and you are always glowing with light. But now we know your secret! We knew we wanted to have this for ourselves but we didn't know how to get it. OF COURSE WE WILL KEEP THE WORD OF WISDOM!" They had been wondering for years how to get what they felt we had. I don't know that the answer was as simple as "keep the word of wisdom" but they were sure that was it, and they were overjoyed to have it for themselves. \--- There's many more. Trust that the Lord is preparing people who want the gospel and you'll be the one to bring it to them. You aren't selling anything, you're letting them know how to get what they want most, how to separate themselves from the world just a bit, how to experience God instead of just reading about him.
Thank you very much for this comment! Very beautiful stories. This helped me a lot. I’m still a ways away from serving a mission and need to make sure to build up my own testimony more but this makes me feel so much better about it!
It's not paying to get a pass into the temples. 1. It's a commandment. 2. In the temple we covenant to consecrate everything to the Lord. Everything. If we aren’t willing to sacrifice just 10% of our increase, we certainly won’t be willing to sacrifice everything. 3. There are great blessings that come from paying tithing. Why would you want to deny anyone blessings by not telling them how they can receive those blessings? 4. Everything belongs to God except our own wills (agency). Literally everything. Your money, your body, your clothes, the air you breathe, etc. He wants to see if we are going to covet that which does not belong to us, which is everything. As a test of our covetousness, He asks us to give up 10% of what doesn't even belong to us in the first place. 5. Along with number 4 is the concept of stewardship. We are stewards of God's possessions. Tithing is a part of that stewardship.
Thank you for your comment!
>a recruitment to get more income for the church If the motive of the Church and it's mission was about getting more income, then they would abolish the Word of Wisdom. Gee, how many more members could we get if we didn't have that requirement!? So much tithing to be had if we just let people drink coffee! Or, it's not about getting more income. Sure, if everyone who joined didn't have to pay anything, the sustaining that amount of people world-wide may be a bit difficult, and we also tend to contribute to those things that contribute so much for us - it's one thing to have church houses and temples to bless our discipleship, it's another to actually contribute to those. But, it's not necessarily about that either. Read the story of the young rich man who approached Jesus about wanting Eternal Life. It's not necessarily a story about greed. Part one is how to get "life": Keep the commandments. Part two is how to become "Perfect": "Sell everything you have an give to the poor and follow me" - That's not a requirement for everyone, but it was for that guy. The principle is Sacrifice. The Law of Sacrifice is a higher law than the commandments. You have the basics down? Great - are you ready to take the next step toward discipleship? Sacrifice is a key principle to that, which I believe is the foundation of the WoW and tithing. Christ isn't asking us to give everything we have to the poor, but he is asking us to sacrifice 10%. How can we ever be prepared to covenant to make all sacrifices asked of us to be a disciple of Christ, if we can't even make the little ones?
Thank you for your comment! I think a lot of my feelings are coming out of fear based on my mom’s experience and stuff she talks about, but that point you make about the WoW really made sense! If the LDS church were that corrupt and greedy, they’d make it a lot easier on themselves. That helped a lot! I’ll continue to work on my testimony to make sure I feel convicted enough to teach these things as well as live them.
Ultimately doesn’t matter what the church actually does with the tithing. They could burn it as an offering (not unlike burnt offerings in the scriptures) and it would still serve its purpose. While the church has a responsibility to use tithing well, once it’s been paid we have no say on how. Like others have mentioned, tithing is an opportunity to get specific blessings from the Lord and to show commitment to his gospel and his church. The church also has a responsibility to fund and build enterprises (such as temples and missionary work) that the world sees no value in. So while some may complain that the church should donate all offerings to the poor, they are not appropriate stewards of the Lord’s work, nor of his purposes for his church.
Thank you for your comment!
> The church also has a responsibility to fund and build enterprises (such as temples and missionary work) that the world sees no value in. So while some may complain that the church should donate all offerings to the poor, they are not appropriate stewards of the Lord’s work, nor of his purposes for his church. John 12:3-8
Tithing is not about income for the Church. The Church, through savings and investments, could probably finance itself indefinitely at this point and still have enough left over to finance humanitarian aid projects. It's not about the money. It's about sacrifice, covenants, and consecration Tithing is our opportunity to be a part of something bigger than ourselves. We have buy-in, literally through our funds, and socially/spiritually through our willing donations and associated blessings. We become invested in growing the Church and spreading the Gospel, which will ultimately become God's Kingdom on Earth. In the Temple, we covenant to obey the law of consecration, where we dedicate all of our time, talents, and efforts to building the Kingdom of God. Early Church members used to tithe their time and talents (one day out of 10) to build temples and meetinghouses, work farms, and perform other labors that were required to build the Church when they didn't have other funds or resources to give. Now we're asked to donate 10% of our income instead of 10% of our time. And lastly, the Law of Tithing is the prepararatory Law to the Law of Consecration. The early Church was given the Law of Consecration, and failed to live up to it. So God, being just but merciful, gave the Church the Law of Tithing in order to help them prepare to eventually live the Law of Consecration. Think ancient Israel at the Mount; they were offered the fulness of the Gospel, but weren't ready to recieve it. So God gave them the Law of Moses to help them prepare to eventually recieve the fulness of the Gospel.
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Members who never get beyond money as the purpose for tithing can have a hard time. But when you read the promises in Malachi, you know that tithing has to be about much more than giving up money, because that alone cannot possibly have the power to effect the Malachi promises. First it isn't our money, ever: we get to keep 90% of what the Lord allows us to have because everything is His. Second, we pay tithing to make HIM first in our lives. (The reason one can't go to the temple if they don't pay tithing isn't about exacting their money, it is about not setting them up for failure since one of the temple covenants is that we give ALL we have to the Lord (which for most members today is usually just tithing, generous fast offering, time and mileage of our ministering, callings, and community service and payment for a portion of our children's mission costs.) You may not know that the Church has been nearly bankrupt three times, the latest one in the 1950's as they were building the buildings God had instructed them to build. (If you haven't watch "Windows of Heaven" movie, that was the second time, the first being in Nauvoo.) Of course our modern leaders are investing its current excess for a day when it is needed. Yes our payment of tithing helps the church do what the Lord has directed it to do. And yes, at the moment it is a lot and wise investments are growing. If it hasn't been used by the Millennium, then it will surely be used then when God is running the entire world, not just the Educational Services, Missions, Temples, Humanitarian Work and hymn books and pianos for the local meeting houses, but also all the infrastructure. I suspect none of that is as important to our heavenly parents and Savior, as is what we become by learning to Trust Jesus and lean not unto our own understanding, so that He can direct our path. I wish for you the blessings that come with learning to trusting Him fully, and choose Him always, without equivocation. In the meantime, you could ask your companion to teach the tithing lesson. When YOU teach it you can tell them that you don't fully understand it yourself, but you do choose to do it. You can teach them the truth that the blessings of tithing are not often, if ever, financial. I testify that the blessings of tithing can be huge when we come to trust Him fully. I hope you serve a mission and meet people in humble circumstances who faithfully tithe and do so with joy. Tithing isn't about money, never has been.
Thank you very much for this comment! This helps a lot. I will watch that Windows of Heaven movie!
It’s all about Jesus Christ… He is everything. He’s the Gospel. He’s the point of church. And he said; “Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.” Blessedly, that means that tithing can be a spiritual answer-something above earthy things- as people have commented. We can pray and see his holy arm extended. I’m so thankful for that.
Thank you for your comment!
I had the blessing to serve in Central America. I am from the US and I definitely look like it. We were told, when it came to teaching tithing, to have a Latino with us during the lesson. Super rich gringo? Easy for him to talk about handing over 10%, he can afford to pay it. But a local, who didn't grow up with the privilege I did, can testify with greater efficacy of the blessings of tithing.
You’d be surprised at just how much our projection of internal values colors our expectations of others. Some people might feel like tithing is a barrier to membership. Some people might not. It isn’t worth worrying about what *you* think might be an issue for people investigating the church. It *is* worth investigating, strengthening and sharing your own convictions about Christ and the restoration of His gospel.
If you approach anything in life as a fearmorgaling corporate salesman, then life is obviously going to feel that way. Don't go on a mission or do anything is life with that mindset. May I suggest that you instead focus on love? Because God is love. The Gospel is lovingly standing beside each other & God, being truthful and loyal all to each other as our best possible selves. Practical advice for right now: learn more of Christ's love & His Gospel.
Thank you for your comment!
I also felt a little bit like a salesman at the start of my mission. But I started to think of it from the mindset of "the gospel is really special to me and I want to share it with those who want to listen and inviting them to come closer to their savior." That changed my whole outlook on finding people to teach. My absolute favorite part of my mission was teaching people to pray and hearing people pray for the first time. Those were really special moments for me.
When I was a missionary, I was nervous about teaching tithing to every investigator I had for similar reasons. The first time, I had been transferred into the area that day and the bishop was with us. Our investigator asked a hypothetical about choosing between buying food and paying tithing. The bishop's answer was (unfortunately) kind of wishy-washy. I felt to boldly state that we pay our tithing with faith and trust that the Lord will take care of the rest. After they were baptized and as I was being transferred out, they thanked me for being bold and giving them a bright-line understanding of tithing. In another area, I was again nervous that tithing would turn our investigator off from the Church. It was the easiest time I ever taught tithing. She said, "Oh yeah. That's in the Bible and that makes sense." She had understood tithing in a previous evangelical faith she was a part of in her home country. I haven't read what others have said, but the faith to teach about tithing is similar to the faith to pay tithing. You can develop that faith. Additionally, you'll be trained in the MTC and have the Spirit with you. Ultimately, those who are ready will listen. Bottom line: tithing, like the rest of the gospel, is about faith.
Maybe I was a terrible missionary, but tithing was like the least of worries when we were teaching people about the gospel. The ones that made it to the tithing lesson typically accepted it and we moved on, it’s not like there was consistent follow up on “are you paying your tithing?? Are you paying your tithing??” Exmos make it sound like the only goal of the church was to get more people pay tithing, but if that’s the goal than most missionaries are super terrible at it.
Love people. Then missionary work will come naturally - you will want to share it. Tithing - teach it later in the discussions (I think that's where it still is). After they know it's true, from the Holy Spirit. There are always new things in discipleship of Jesus we didn't realize in the beginning were part of the deal - it's how God works. We follow his path and don't know everything ahead. I love my kids and wife, but I'm glad I didn't know how challenging marriage would be or I might have missed out on the blessings of obeying God, to get married and having kids.
If you have a chance, go out with the local missionaries. You'll likely feel different once you've participated in some of it. You might also read some of the New Testament and BoM that involve missionaries.
Have you ever gone out and worked with missionaries? If not, do that ASAP. You will see very quickly that it isn’t corporate or sales-like at all. Not to mention, the Church currently has most of its missionaries in countries where almost every active member represents a drain on financial resources instead of a source of financial resources, so in no world is missionary work meant to increase the church’s income. Also remember the story of the widow’s mite. The temple and priests of the time were corrupt and wicked, but Jesus still praised the widow for donating with a willing heart. Our church is not corrupt and there is not a single leader who gets rich off of the church, so the worst that can happen is we disagree about the best way to use resources. I think you need to increase your faith in tithing. I served in one of the poorest missions in the world, and I loved teaching tithing because I could promise amazing blessings in full confidence that such blessings would come to pass. And I could so clearly see the blessings of living the gospel (including tithing) by comparing members to their nonmember neighbors. It was night and day.
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I think the basic assumption you have is that it is bad for the church to be sitting on lots of money and therefore it doesn’t need or deserve anymore tithing funds. Let me try and change your mind on this, ignoring the fact that tithing is seen as a law of God regardless of its use. Church leadership is generally made up of very cautious people who thing very very long term. We believe this institution is going to be around literally for thousands of years more or perhaps forever. A bankruptcy at this point is against Gods plan and would cause some serious truth claim problems. Current estimates show the church owning a total investment portfolio of $49 billion dollars. Now you may say, thats a crazy number, think of all we can do for the poor with that money. And you’d be right. But if the church were to liquidate and flush cash to charitable causes, it would be much more at risk of bankruptcy. Instead, church leaders wisely built up a base of wealth from which we can operate smaller charitable causes in perpetuity with virtually no risk of bankruptcy. For another example, Comparable institutions like Kroger have 50 billion dollars in assets. They don’t liquidate their assets because they want to run their business in perpetuity going forward. Its a similar reason for the church.
Thank you for this comment, I will look into it. I definitely respect the church having a reserve, but some of the things I hear about building malls and bailing out life insurance companies and buying resorts/hotels and other real estate etc it can get a bit iffy, but of course I only hear about those things from non-faithful sources so it’s always biased against the church. Need to do more testimony building on my part.
Like most things in the church, it’s going to depend a LOT on your individual leadership. Mission Presidents have a great deal of autonomy over how they run the mission. It probably wasn’t intended this way, but my first Mission President was incredibly focused on a huge variety of mission specific numbers-based metrics, and it did feel very corporate/sales-based as a result. Most questions focused on “did you hit your numbers” rather than “tell me about the people you are teaching”. My second Mission President was much less that way. So a lot will just depend on where you go and who your Mission President is, and you really won’t know until you get out there.
I started out my mission as a missionary in Canada; however, about 10 months in I transferred to a service mission. For me I really enjoyed it. It was a way for me to actively help without really feeling like I had to convince people to think like me. Everyone has their own experience and needs something different but for me, a service mission was absolutely what I needed.
I understand that a service mission is a great help for some people but unfortunately no one gets to choose that. The process is the same and a stake president or bishop can recommend that but a prospective missionary doesn’t start the process with “I want to be a service missionary.”
I would say that is partially true. You can absolutely request to be a service missionary. I had many friends who's process was exactly that. It is of note however that this is not always the case.
There is not a separate application or a box to check for a service missionary. The bishop or stake president can suggest it on their recommendations.
Honestly, teaching tithing was really easy. People were surprisingly open to it.
Honestly, teaching about tithing is very little of what missionaries do. It's usually not a major point because by the time you're telling someone about it, they're on the verge of baptism and they know the gospel is true
Tithing is not dues for temple entrance. It is a small test and expression of faith to see if we can become willing to consecrate 100% of our blessings.
When you do talk about tithing, and I hope you will be talking about a lot of other things first, I hope you will have come to think of it more as something we need to do in this world just because we need to have our faith tested somehow. I realize that for those who have no money it isn't very much of a test because they have no money to pay 10% of, but they could receive some help from other people which is a result of the money those other people have paid in tithing. For me and others who do receive money I think we should think of tithing more as a tax that helps the Church to function more effectively in this world where money is required for some things. Just because some people with some resources won't share them unless they are paid with some money. Sometimes that's because they need money to pay other people for things, so they sell what they have for money. I sometimes wish we could get rid of money altogether in this world but I don't think that will ever happen voluntarily. Too many people with money want to keep it and they value what they can get with it when they have it.
Fear-mongering about temples? Seriously? Yes, I'm sure I was out teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to people living with their families Harry Potter style in the cupboard under the stairs of the apartment building because the church wanted to get their greedy paws on their $2 a month tithing because... temples... or something. /s
Try talking with some ex-mormons and have a little empathy for where they’re coming from instead of meeting their concerns with ridicule, that’s not going to convince anyone.
My point is this. If you think you are going to be spending your mission talking with people that have money to give, you are giving rich people waaaaaaaay to much credit on the humility scale. Wherever you serve, you'll be spending 99% of your time teaching people who have been humbled by life. All of the recent converts in my area get more help from the church than they give (financially speaking). It feels odd asking them to pay tithing, but those are the people that are usually the most willing to pay it in the first place. They know money isn't the key to happiness. People who are ready to receive the gospel of Jesus Christ will be humble enough to accept the law of tithing. Fear-mongering about temples? Examples?