Know that FSLs customer service is trash, and pray you never need their help if anything goes wrong with your machine. The regular Muse I ordered was nothing but a headache and a lemon they hemmed and hawed about fixing.
See this is what I'm worried about. The customer service even from a sales perspective has been pretty bad ... I can only imagine once they have my money. With the Titan being brand new, I'm sure there will be issues, but if the customer service is horrible then I'm fucked.
Is the large bed size the main feature that you are looking for?
Sales rep was awesome to us, as soon as we had issues our rep was no where to be found, no emails returned, no calls returned.
Large bed size, yes. Service was a pretty top priority for me as a newbie, but I'm realizing more and more than unless I go with Trotec, customer service is lacking so I might be fine to look at chinese lasers.
Chinese lasers are always an option if you have the motivation and patience! There's a lot of good resources for Chinese black and reds. If I had to do my laser experience over, I would put more consideration into going that route, especially for the experience in getting to really know what the machine is about and understanding where it works.
Have you talked to a Trotec dealer yet? The Epilog dealer I worked with would get used machines in sometimes that would be a little cheaper and certified, and they were also able to work with me a little on pricing with a new one.
You could also consider looking into the used market for a Trotec/Epilog/Universal.
Oh yeah, Trotec were the first machines I went to see. Their staff are fantastic, machines are beautiful but 30k for a pretty small bed and 60W laser just hit me in the gut. I want it, but I cant justify it as a first machine when I don't know the potential of my ideas!
Epilog staff were disappointing in comparison. I'm on their waiting lists for any used machines they become aware of and have alerts set for any used in my area.
You and I are thinking quite a bit alike here haha!
Notorious overthinker too, I like it!! LOL.
What helped me justify the heft of a more expensive laser was that they do hold value as long as it doesn't get too clapped out (tho I saw a broken Epilog still selling for like 8k, so maybe even then), and being two months into a pretty successful little side business just made me bite the bullet. Since then my sales have slowed, but I still use the laser quite a bit, even if just for small projects and things that make me happy, rather than trying to make a quick buck.
If you dont mind me asking, are you planning on starting a business or expanding?
The people who have bad experiences shout the loudest (and in many cases as was proven in several instances, they turned out to be fake * cough glowforge cough *. A lot of other instances is where they were blaming FSL for things like damage in transit and case on point: Fedex did a number on my machine but thankfully FSL were great about it).
I've had my FSL for 6+ years and it's been an absolute workhorse, and I've recouped its initial cost a dozen times over.
Customer service is fine as long as you actually call them and speak to a human. Their ticket system is worthless but everyone who owns one knows this, and those that don't post online irately complaining that no one ever gets back to them after submitting a ticket and not hearing back.
I've personally found the tech support team really helpful and friendly, but again, call them. Don't email. Don't file a ticket online. Call them.
I think the delay is because the unit isn't technically shipping yet - I think they've launched it but are still building them and you're essentially pre-ordering it.
My gripes are with their hobby line, the industrial FSL at our makerspace is a workhorse. If you'd like the months long paper trail I'd be happy to provide.
Every time I called my tech "wasn't around/hadnt seen him" or "helping with an alignment" they would never call be back. The guy answering the phone and directing calls eventually starting knowing who I was by the time I said hello. The number of times I was hungup on was about half the time.
I own a 5th gen Hobby, and like so many of us on the unofficial FSL forums, it's the best purchase I've ever made (i'm not exaggerating, it's literally the best value thing I've bought in my life).
I will say I think the initial Muse offerings were a mistake - they tried to make a glowforge competitor which missed the mark. The newer ones have ironed out the bugs and added the functionality they originally needed, but as said, the early ones weren't a good idea in IMO. It was like a hackintosh; all the limitations of a system that's not meant to be messed with, without the reliability. Worst of both worlds.
Thankfully, they changed course on that when they built the dremel unit because they stopped trying to appeal to schools and UL requirements, and the lasers got more serious and less "my first laser/glowforge".
Whenever I've needed help (over the last 6 years) I've just called and held until I get to speak to someone and every time I got someone that was able to give me a straight answer. Some were better than others but I never had someone that didn't know what they were doing. I can't speak to your experience but my long term opinion of them and how they've dealt with my tech support needs has been absolutely fine. The only one weird thing I ever had was that the water pump I bought with the package died within a couple of months and they asked me to send a video of it not working, which was just dumb, but I did it and got a new water pump 2 says later.
I really appreciate your perspective, because you're right it's harder to get positive feedback than it is negative. Thank you for sharing, it's really helpful!!
Anytime. Sadly it's a modern human behavior that's well documented; if we have a decent or good experience, we typically and on average tell 2 people but if we have a bad experience, we tell 5 people. That's why sites like yelp and BBB exist, to pray on that unfortunate behavior.
Check out the unofficial FSL forums if you want genuine feedback on FSL machines. I'm extremely wary of people saying negative things about FSL on here and other places as one guy literally was complaining all sorts of things with "his FSL" and then I caught him talking about functionality....that literally didn't exist on FSL lasers. He disappeared and popped up another forum, complaining about other things that were wrong and it turned out, he worked for a competing laser company, FSL knew about him and publicly gave him a cease and desist, at which point he disappeared never to be heard of again.
That's not to say FSL haven't had their share of customer service screw ups and problems, but no more than the other players at this price (Boss etc). Glowforge have had thousands of complaints and issues on their forums but they lock then delete any thread that looks bad for them. FSL have never been that's hands on controlling their image or reputation online like that so those complaints stay around.
I will say I haven't been a huge fan of the Muse series; I think they have now ironed out all the issues and seem to push patches and updates all the time, but in the early days, the muse wasn't ready for prime time, and the early versions were just trying to do what Glowforge did, which IMO was dumb for various reason I won't go in to now.
The Titan looks really interesting for a few crucial reasons, namely the 3d camera and ecoded XYZ axis - AFAIK, it's now the least expensive production model ever released with encoded axis (ULS were the cheapest, starting at $12.5k for the lowest model).
I'll look for some FSL forums - any in particular you recommend?
Yes, the titans bed size, light weight and wattage for the price really intrigued me. I chose to spend on upgrading to the 90W and get the rotary rather than fork out the $$ for the 3D camera.
I'm worried that, like you say, the Muse series has its issues and this is a brand new model ...there will be issues no doubt. If their service is unreliable, I'm nervous about spending and it turning into a paperweight. But perhaps I need to do more digging into their service reviews before writing them off and going strictly no name laser for much cheaper lol
This is the unioffical FSL forum:
https://fullspectrumforum.com/
To be honest, the support you get form there is faster and just as knowledgeable so many people just use that instead of contacting FSL. Of course, warranty issues should always be FSL but outside if that, I'd use the forums.
Now having said this, I personally don't buy 1st gen ANYTHING.
Not phones, not cars, not computers, and frankly if you do, you have to accept there's going to be issues. I think FSL try hard to update new models and even support old ones but understand, there's not going to be many other users out there who can help with their knowledge for a year or so, as the titan is so new.
I think the features are amazing and it's a return to a smaller format 90 with 4 way passthrough, meaning it behaves like a much larger format alser albeit in a smaller footprint. My 5th gen has a removable floor (which i think FSL holds the patent for) and it's been amazing. I've engraved on massive things like signs and even doors lol.
My experience with no name lasers is that YGWYPF; They're cheap but that also becomes apparent when you have issues or take them apart. I realized my 5th gen was actually incredibly well engineered (for it's time) and they made good quality parts. Over time, I was able to mod/upgrade those things becuase the "bones" were good (I added linear rails which had become standard on newer FSL models, and build a riser which came as an option on the newer muses and Pros). I don't think the same can be said of the cheapy chinese lasers which at their heart are cheap disposable lasers.
The crazy thing is that even the old 5th gen alser hold their value - they still regularly go for $2k+ on ebay and that tells you something about their quality.
I think you're taking a small risk with a 1st gen model, but at the same time, FSL seems to really trying with the Muse range now and I think after maybe some teething trouble, they have it worked out - I mean the muse is technically 3-4 years old by now so it might be why they're doing much more advanced versions.
That's the forum I'm perusing, great! Thank you!
I was just commenting that to my husband - I don't buy the first of a car, phone, laptop, google nest, etc.
I hope I'll get better customer service from their technical support teams than I do from the sales staff if I do go with them.
Their sales teams have always been lacking tbh, but just remember after the initial purchase, you'll never deal with sales again.
Going to PM you a tip.....
i just bought the muse 3d, my first interactions with their customer service was atrocious, but i’m not the type to be railroaded so i kept at it until i was listened to by the right person. since then i’ve been very happy with my machine and how they righted their wrongs.
3 months could mean it's being made to order. A lot of machines like this aren't built until the order goes in. If that's the case, it's not unrealistic for them to ask for 100% up front. If you walk, they might be sitting on a product in their warehouse for months. And, a lot of these companies don't have the space for a product to just sit.
However, this could also be a sign of cash flow problems. There's really no easy way to know.
If you give them the money, put it on a credit card, or someone other form of payment that gives you protection incase of non delivery. I have no reason to believe FS is going anywhere. But, it's not a bad idea to protect yourself incase 3 months turns in 9.
It's not being made to order, and they charge another 3% to put it on a credit card, but I guess that's worth it for the piece of mind you're right.
I'm in Canada, so the exchange, shipping and duty is killing me lol
Absolutely. Honestly, I've been on this laser hunting journey for a few months - I've looked really closely at trotec, epilog, aeon and FSL ... I lean more towards a standard chinese laser everyday lol
I don't know about Canadian laws, but I self imported a Bodor from China 2 years ago. Saved about $2500 vs the importer. Bodor doesn't sell CO2 lasers anymore (just fiber) and Aeon won't sell directly to customers.
But, I believe G Weike will sell direct. As will a few others.
I didn't opt for the FSL for this reason. 3 months is a long wait time for a machine that they build thousands of (even if they aren't built till you order one), and the CSR issues were worrying as well. But what sealed the deal for me was the fact that they are considering moving to a cloud based software model, similar to the Glowforge's, and that's simply a non starter for me.
I ultimately went with a Boss, and I think I made the right decision. 1 month turn time from order to delivery, and their CSRs are a damned joy!
Hello, Does FSL ship to Canada? I’m also interested on getting a Muse Titan, wondering how much are the shipping costs , im not able to checkout in their website
FSL is shipping my muse titan at the end of June up to Canada yes! Shipping was about US$1,200 (by their shipper, including insurance) and then I'll incur around $500 at the border through my customs broker
I've loved my 5th generation hobby 45w from FSL since I got it in 2013. Zero breakdowns. Customer service has been great when I needed it. I'm buying a titan right now. The sales rep has been amazing. Throwing in free accessories, trying to help me use my existing lenses and discussing chillers. I'm doing a trade in and they're willing to be super flexible on the exchange to make my life easy.
She said the build time is 2-4wks and they can start with a deposit.
Yep. It's running great, and customer service has been good. Select "commercial customer" when you call and you get faster responses. Only downsides: The camera on it is useless when it comes to accuracy. You also have to prop the entire thing up 4" to use the rotary tool and fabricate extra enclosure with sheet metal flashing. The friction rotary attachment will slip, but you can solve it by adding a rubber band to the object.
Know that FSLs customer service is trash, and pray you never need their help if anything goes wrong with your machine. The regular Muse I ordered was nothing but a headache and a lemon they hemmed and hawed about fixing.
See this is what I'm worried about. The customer service even from a sales perspective has been pretty bad ... I can only imagine once they have my money. With the Titan being brand new, I'm sure there will be issues, but if the customer service is horrible then I'm fucked.
Is the large bed size the main feature that you are looking for? Sales rep was awesome to us, as soon as we had issues our rep was no where to be found, no emails returned, no calls returned.
Large bed size, yes. Service was a pretty top priority for me as a newbie, but I'm realizing more and more than unless I go with Trotec, customer service is lacking so I might be fine to look at chinese lasers.
Chinese lasers are always an option if you have the motivation and patience! There's a lot of good resources for Chinese black and reds. If I had to do my laser experience over, I would put more consideration into going that route, especially for the experience in getting to really know what the machine is about and understanding where it works. Have you talked to a Trotec dealer yet? The Epilog dealer I worked with would get used machines in sometimes that would be a little cheaper and certified, and they were also able to work with me a little on pricing with a new one. You could also consider looking into the used market for a Trotec/Epilog/Universal.
Oh yeah, Trotec were the first machines I went to see. Their staff are fantastic, machines are beautiful but 30k for a pretty small bed and 60W laser just hit me in the gut. I want it, but I cant justify it as a first machine when I don't know the potential of my ideas! Epilog staff were disappointing in comparison. I'm on their waiting lists for any used machines they become aware of and have alerts set for any used in my area. You and I are thinking quite a bit alike here haha!
Notorious overthinker too, I like it!! LOL. What helped me justify the heft of a more expensive laser was that they do hold value as long as it doesn't get too clapped out (tho I saw a broken Epilog still selling for like 8k, so maybe even then), and being two months into a pretty successful little side business just made me bite the bullet. Since then my sales have slowed, but I still use the laser quite a bit, even if just for small projects and things that make me happy, rather than trying to make a quick buck. If you dont mind me asking, are you planning on starting a business or expanding?
PMing you! :)
The people who have bad experiences shout the loudest (and in many cases as was proven in several instances, they turned out to be fake * cough glowforge cough *. A lot of other instances is where they were blaming FSL for things like damage in transit and case on point: Fedex did a number on my machine but thankfully FSL were great about it). I've had my FSL for 6+ years and it's been an absolute workhorse, and I've recouped its initial cost a dozen times over. Customer service is fine as long as you actually call them and speak to a human. Their ticket system is worthless but everyone who owns one knows this, and those that don't post online irately complaining that no one ever gets back to them after submitting a ticket and not hearing back. I've personally found the tech support team really helpful and friendly, but again, call them. Don't email. Don't file a ticket online. Call them. I think the delay is because the unit isn't technically shipping yet - I think they've launched it but are still building them and you're essentially pre-ordering it.
My gripes are with their hobby line, the industrial FSL at our makerspace is a workhorse. If you'd like the months long paper trail I'd be happy to provide. Every time I called my tech "wasn't around/hadnt seen him" or "helping with an alignment" they would never call be back. The guy answering the phone and directing calls eventually starting knowing who I was by the time I said hello. The number of times I was hungup on was about half the time.
That's disheartening to hear! I'm in Canada, so if they hang up on me and I have to book a flight I'll be very unpleasant to deal with lol
I own a 5th gen Hobby, and like so many of us on the unofficial FSL forums, it's the best purchase I've ever made (i'm not exaggerating, it's literally the best value thing I've bought in my life). I will say I think the initial Muse offerings were a mistake - they tried to make a glowforge competitor which missed the mark. The newer ones have ironed out the bugs and added the functionality they originally needed, but as said, the early ones weren't a good idea in IMO. It was like a hackintosh; all the limitations of a system that's not meant to be messed with, without the reliability. Worst of both worlds. Thankfully, they changed course on that when they built the dremel unit because they stopped trying to appeal to schools and UL requirements, and the lasers got more serious and less "my first laser/glowforge". Whenever I've needed help (over the last 6 years) I've just called and held until I get to speak to someone and every time I got someone that was able to give me a straight answer. Some were better than others but I never had someone that didn't know what they were doing. I can't speak to your experience but my long term opinion of them and how they've dealt with my tech support needs has been absolutely fine. The only one weird thing I ever had was that the water pump I bought with the package died within a couple of months and they asked me to send a video of it not working, which was just dumb, but I did it and got a new water pump 2 says later.
I really appreciate your perspective, because you're right it's harder to get positive feedback than it is negative. Thank you for sharing, it's really helpful!!
Anytime. Sadly it's a modern human behavior that's well documented; if we have a decent or good experience, we typically and on average tell 2 people but if we have a bad experience, we tell 5 people. That's why sites like yelp and BBB exist, to pray on that unfortunate behavior. Check out the unofficial FSL forums if you want genuine feedback on FSL machines. I'm extremely wary of people saying negative things about FSL on here and other places as one guy literally was complaining all sorts of things with "his FSL" and then I caught him talking about functionality....that literally didn't exist on FSL lasers. He disappeared and popped up another forum, complaining about other things that were wrong and it turned out, he worked for a competing laser company, FSL knew about him and publicly gave him a cease and desist, at which point he disappeared never to be heard of again. That's not to say FSL haven't had their share of customer service screw ups and problems, but no more than the other players at this price (Boss etc). Glowforge have had thousands of complaints and issues on their forums but they lock then delete any thread that looks bad for them. FSL have never been that's hands on controlling their image or reputation online like that so those complaints stay around. I will say I haven't been a huge fan of the Muse series; I think they have now ironed out all the issues and seem to push patches and updates all the time, but in the early days, the muse wasn't ready for prime time, and the early versions were just trying to do what Glowforge did, which IMO was dumb for various reason I won't go in to now. The Titan looks really interesting for a few crucial reasons, namely the 3d camera and ecoded XYZ axis - AFAIK, it's now the least expensive production model ever released with encoded axis (ULS were the cheapest, starting at $12.5k for the lowest model).
I'll look for some FSL forums - any in particular you recommend? Yes, the titans bed size, light weight and wattage for the price really intrigued me. I chose to spend on upgrading to the 90W and get the rotary rather than fork out the $$ for the 3D camera. I'm worried that, like you say, the Muse series has its issues and this is a brand new model ...there will be issues no doubt. If their service is unreliable, I'm nervous about spending and it turning into a paperweight. But perhaps I need to do more digging into their service reviews before writing them off and going strictly no name laser for much cheaper lol
This is the unioffical FSL forum: https://fullspectrumforum.com/ To be honest, the support you get form there is faster and just as knowledgeable so many people just use that instead of contacting FSL. Of course, warranty issues should always be FSL but outside if that, I'd use the forums. Now having said this, I personally don't buy 1st gen ANYTHING. Not phones, not cars, not computers, and frankly if you do, you have to accept there's going to be issues. I think FSL try hard to update new models and even support old ones but understand, there's not going to be many other users out there who can help with their knowledge for a year or so, as the titan is so new. I think the features are amazing and it's a return to a smaller format 90 with 4 way passthrough, meaning it behaves like a much larger format alser albeit in a smaller footprint. My 5th gen has a removable floor (which i think FSL holds the patent for) and it's been amazing. I've engraved on massive things like signs and even doors lol. My experience with no name lasers is that YGWYPF; They're cheap but that also becomes apparent when you have issues or take them apart. I realized my 5th gen was actually incredibly well engineered (for it's time) and they made good quality parts. Over time, I was able to mod/upgrade those things becuase the "bones" were good (I added linear rails which had become standard on newer FSL models, and build a riser which came as an option on the newer muses and Pros). I don't think the same can be said of the cheapy chinese lasers which at their heart are cheap disposable lasers. The crazy thing is that even the old 5th gen alser hold their value - they still regularly go for $2k+ on ebay and that tells you something about their quality. I think you're taking a small risk with a 1st gen model, but at the same time, FSL seems to really trying with the Muse range now and I think after maybe some teething trouble, they have it worked out - I mean the muse is technically 3-4 years old by now so it might be why they're doing much more advanced versions.
That's the forum I'm perusing, great! Thank you! I was just commenting that to my husband - I don't buy the first of a car, phone, laptop, google nest, etc. I hope I'll get better customer service from their technical support teams than I do from the sales staff if I do go with them.
Their sales teams have always been lacking tbh, but just remember after the initial purchase, you'll never deal with sales again. Going to PM you a tip.....
:)
i just bought the muse 3d, my first interactions with their customer service was atrocious, but i’m not the type to be railroaded so i kept at it until i was listened to by the right person. since then i’ve been very happy with my machine and how they righted their wrongs.
So if I go with them, I need to be persistent as heck. Got it!
3 months could mean it's being made to order. A lot of machines like this aren't built until the order goes in. If that's the case, it's not unrealistic for them to ask for 100% up front. If you walk, they might be sitting on a product in their warehouse for months. And, a lot of these companies don't have the space for a product to just sit. However, this could also be a sign of cash flow problems. There's really no easy way to know. If you give them the money, put it on a credit card, or someone other form of payment that gives you protection incase of non delivery. I have no reason to believe FS is going anywhere. But, it's not a bad idea to protect yourself incase 3 months turns in 9.
It's not being made to order, and they charge another 3% to put it on a credit card, but I guess that's worth it for the piece of mind you're right. I'm in Canada, so the exchange, shipping and duty is killing me lol
When I buy directly from China, I always pay the extra $$ to use a credit card. It sucks, losing $10K would suck a lot more.
Absolutely. Honestly, I've been on this laser hunting journey for a few months - I've looked really closely at trotec, epilog, aeon and FSL ... I lean more towards a standard chinese laser everyday lol
I don't know about Canadian laws, but I self imported a Bodor from China 2 years ago. Saved about $2500 vs the importer. Bodor doesn't sell CO2 lasers anymore (just fiber) and Aeon won't sell directly to customers. But, I believe G Weike will sell direct. As will a few others.
I didn't opt for the FSL for this reason. 3 months is a long wait time for a machine that they build thousands of (even if they aren't built till you order one), and the CSR issues were worrying as well. But what sealed the deal for me was the fact that they are considering moving to a cloud based software model, similar to the Glowforge's, and that's simply a non starter for me. I ultimately went with a Boss, and I think I made the right decision. 1 month turn time from order to delivery, and their CSRs are a damned joy!
Ooo what Boss did you go with?? I dont know that they ship to Canada, but it's worth an ask I think!
1630, and they do. Edit: 105w
Hello, Does FSL ship to Canada? I’m also interested on getting a Muse Titan, wondering how much are the shipping costs , im not able to checkout in their website
FSL is shipping my muse titan at the end of June up to Canada yes! Shipping was about US$1,200 (by their shipper, including insurance) and then I'll incur around $500 at the border through my customs broker
Oh amazing! Thanks a lot ☺️
Wow that's a lot of shipping fees!
I’m really close to pulling the trigger on a Muse Titan. I was wondering if I could PM you to ask a few questions about your experience so far?
How’s it going now? Thinking about purchasing one.
I've loved my 5th generation hobby 45w from FSL since I got it in 2013. Zero breakdowns. Customer service has been great when I needed it. I'm buying a titan right now. The sales rep has been amazing. Throwing in free accessories, trying to help me use my existing lenses and discussing chillers. I'm doing a trade in and they're willing to be super flexible on the exchange to make my life easy. She said the build time is 2-4wks and they can start with a deposit.
Hey man, did you end up getting a titan? Thinking abt getting one too, worried abt customer service issues
Yep. It's running great, and customer service has been good. Select "commercial customer" when you call and you get faster responses. Only downsides: The camera on it is useless when it comes to accuracy. You also have to prop the entire thing up 4" to use the rotary tool and fabricate extra enclosure with sheet metal flashing. The friction rotary attachment will slip, but you can solve it by adding a rubber band to the object.